Downwind Crossover Boards - Do I need one?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 лют 2024
- I take a look at downwind crossover boards for wing foiling.
We try out and ride two different crossover board designs from Swift-Foiling.
You can visit swift foiling here - swiftfoiling.com/
I discuss how they suit beginners through to intermediates and what might you gain or lose from owning one.
00:27 - Intro
01:16 - Overview of two downwind board designs
02:47 - Standard Beginner Advice
03:52 - A different perspective for beginners
06:12 - Intermediate Riders - one or two board quiver
07:27 - Intermnediate two board quiver advantages
08:41 - Summary of thoughts
09:20 - Discussing the two boards performance
15:05 - Outro
Equipment used in this video:
2024 Duotone Unit 4m/5m
Axis HPS 830 / 930/ 1050
Axis Spitfire 840
Axis 350 Progressive tail stabiliser
Axis 90cm HM Carbon Mast
Axis Crazy short advance fuselage
Swift Foiling 90L 6' 10" Downwind Crossover board
Swift Foiling 90L 6' 3" Downwind Crossover board
Ion Rogue Wing Foil Harness
Ion Mission Helmet
Ride Engine Impact Vest - Спорт
I have a Naish Hover DW 105L and a Takoon Glide V2 at 90L. I am 75KG and have about 75 sessions under my belt from the last 15 months. I can gybe both ways in my regular stance and am working on being more proficient with foot-switching. So "beginner-mediate" level. The number one thing that makes me decide to take one board out over the other is chop. I foil in a place where the chop can get significant from many wind directions when the wind is over 14kts. That is when I use my smaller board. My DW 105L board is actually lighter than my 90L, so I prefer to ride it almost all the time. It is much easier to ride switch on the DW board. It also slogs about 2-3km/hr faster than my traditional wing board when the wind drops to below 7Kts and I cannot stay on foil easily. All this to say, local chop conditions and overall weight of the board are good considerations, too. I have found the weight of the board is far more important to me than the length. I am not upset with having a slightly wider board (22.5 inches). The hardest thing about the DW board is getting to standing before the chop knocks you over. There are techniques to help with this, but once you learn to pop up and get your feet in the right place, you can take off pretty quick with more speed. You don't really need to pop the board up as it will lift on it's own when it hits the lower lift limit of your foil. Great video, lots of good info!
I also ride in a very choppy location - I only found chop a problem when it is very light wind and very close period chop as it was very easy to get unbalanced with no support from the wing on a narrower board. Thanks for your insights as it all adds to the collective knowledge.
Excellent content thank you. I am an intermediate rider considering diving into DW inspired boards for winging and your content is exactly what I need right now, thank you (from San Francisco, California).
Hopefully it helps you make a decision - if you can try to demo.
Fantastic video. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
much appreciated
FWIW from a newbie. I spent last week on Maui learning on a 135 Armstrong FG. Once I figured it out I tried an Armstrong DW 121L with the same foil set up. It was WAY easier to get that DW board on foil.
thanks for the newbie perspective :)
@Wing-Tips Very logical breakdown and well presented. Sub'd!
Thanks
Excellent reviews on this channel! (light wind wing boards is my focus)
Glad you like them!
Mwoah, riding a 7.10 Takuma Rise quite often winging and love that board
Perfect summary & recommendations !
thankyou
I'd say he glosses over the realities of learning on a 20" wide board. You can't just stand up and then grab your wing, instead you have to start sailing while on your knees. It's a pretty big difference for someone just starting out.
@slappyosis stand up and then grab your wing.... who teaches that as a way to start your board, that is bad practice right from the get go, you should be learning to start from your knees and using the wing as a counter balance. Also, I would point out that I say 20" as an absolute minimum, for example a windsurfer learning to wing who already has balance, a total beginner should go wider. I'd also point out that these boards are designed to be stood on with no wing at all for balance, just a paddle, you seem to believe they have no stability at all which is simply not the case.
@@Wing-Tips The way you talk about it screams to me you don't have any actual experience learning this way or talked to people who actually have done it. You're just extrapolating your experiences as a competent wingfoiler and imagining what it would be like. You don't talk about how hard it is to correct the angle of a honkin' 7'6" board and if a wave catches the nose of the board it will just swing it downwind on you. I learned on a 58L board in marginal winds via stinkbug and then after a few sessions added a 7'6" x 20" DW board, and while I'm a competent kitefoiler I can assure you this was 50x harder than just getting a 80L board. At 20" wide these boards are tippy as hell. Even once I am up and foiling I can barely jibe my 7'6" board, yet I can easily do flying jibes on my 58L board (some of that is due to wind speed difference). And you mention that 20" is the minimum ... yet 99% of these boards in existence are 18-20" wide, pretty much the only one I know of that is wider is the PPC Link.
The majority of these boards are absolutely not 18-20" wide, I'm talking about crossover boards not downwind boards. Crossover boards for example like the AK Nomad - the 115L is 23" wide, the 135L is 24.5" wide. Swift foiling have their crossover boards (the non pro versions - which you would assume a beginner would gravitate towards) at 23" wide and 24" wide. The AFS Blackbird 110L 23.5" wide. These are all crossover boards, not downwind boards, Not all manufacturers have created true crossover boards yet, they are a new development and only just emerging - there are many pure downwind boards that are very long and very narrow - those are not what the video talks about. I clearly state below 7' and that 20" is the absolute minimum - in that sentence it should be clear that wider would suit a beginner, intermediates are the ones who will get on OK with the absolute minimum width I specify as the video is not just aimed at beginners it is aimed at beginners and intermediates.
1 also have the Naish 105 DW and I’m about 72kg. I don’t understand what anyone who is riding a big board (100L) or bigger wouldn’t just use a DW. Hull speed is much greater and it pops up on foil in almost nothing. There also really isn’t a big difference in performance from my 54L sinker which turns faster and doesn’t offer as much surface area to be effected in really high winds. The DW is the ultimate all around. If I could only have 1 board it would definitely be a DW foil board, even if I were a new beginner
Tanks Mon!
I came to a similar conclusion, not from experience but from money saving perspective great angles on camera btw.
It's a sail video systems shoulder mount if you want to get similar shots.
@@Wing-Tips thanks for sharing. No need for me to buy, I will save for my DW board, and continue watching your videos.
Starboard has Ace downwind boards that light wing weapons. 7’0 is 100 liters,7’4’ is 120 liters and 7’ 10 is 140 liters
I'll have to check them out - although a bit long for winging, I'm sure they work well but I do like a bit shorter for winging.
So the pertinent question is which Swift Foiling DW board did you buy Ash?
For an intermediate winger buying a two board quiver you could get a downwind style board for light wind (6-7ft length and 15-20L over your bodyweight) and a smaller prone style board for strong wind days. This would potentially allow you to enjoy three types of foiling with two boards if you have the skills: wing, prone/surf, and downwind.
I haven't placed my order yet - as I have some more tests to do (which will be in a coming video). But at the moment I'm thinking about going about 6' 8" and 95L and either 19' or 20' width, bevelled rails and the diamond tail. My 80L NG board I'll be selling and the 60L NG board will be kept as my higher wind board.
Best advice I've seen without prefence biases. What you didnt mention is using either of these boards as prone or sup. Ive seen more of these thpes in the surf lineup when small or at high tide to stay away from regular surfers
yes you make a good point, you can use these for sup foil surfing, my focus is mostly towards winging, I can't claim to have much expertise with downwinding or sup foil surfing as my local spot is not particularly great for either discipline. With regard to biases, I'm not in the watersports industry (and actually from the computer games industry - winging is just my hobby). I get on well with the local shop and board shaper - which lets me try all kinds of stuff, I'm very lucky really to have such great businesses local to me.
@@Wing-Tips these new type of boards are becoming game changers in normally uncatchable wave conditions.
I've explored this extensively.
Prone or SUP foiling: Hybrid works well here, good for beginners and intermediates provided a good match for weight. Using a true downwind board in the surf is difficult, the hybrids are easier and more manageable.
SUP downwind: The hybrid boards are really not useful for SUP downwind at all unless you are an _excellent_ SUP paddler already! They are just too slow to get on foil in bumps.
@@skatehills I agree, sup downwind you tend to have to go longer to get the benefit and going longer is way worse for winging. So there is always going to be a compromise along the way somewhere, you can try to do one size fits all but something is going to suffer as a result. So you have to pick what you do the most and prioritise for the conditions and discipline.
@@Wing-TipsExactly, I think the only issue is calling there is always going to be some confusion if they are called crossover or hybrid, as that really isn't the case, rather call them light wind wing boards :D
Great video, mate. Good suggestions and I definitely like your 1x vs 2x board quiver considerations as I've been going through that in my head at the moment. I'm just interested in your thoughts about your comment that these DW boards are not good for surfing. I'm a fairly competent wingfoiler who is keen to start SUP surfing and combining that with having a light wind board, these DW boards seem to be a great option especially because I currently SUP surf (without foil) and would love to SUP foil in small waves or just bumps. Short of using a foil drive or some type of assist system, these boards seem to be the perfect option as I can even potentially pop up on foil from flat water before a bump reaches me and just ride that for as long as I can.
Having said all that, there can be so many scenarios out there that you can't possibly talk about them all in a video... 🤣
For surfing I'm more referring to steeper breaking waves where keeping the nose up so you don't catch it in the bottom turn xan be an issue. You can improve this with a baseplate shim to make the nose ride a little higher.
Super super helpful video! I'm an advanced rider at ~80kg on an 85liter custom board designed 2+ years ago 60.5" x
24.75" and have been interested in the more recent more towards longer and narrower wing boards. Your video really helped me, especially around 7:00 where you break down the "two types" of intermediate+ riders. I'm definitely a one-board (and one foil!) quiver guy, and so, even though I can see the benefits of a DW-style board for lighter wind, since I am sticking with a single board, that will remain 80-85 liters, probably slightly longer and narrower than my current board, but not "downwind" style. Any thoughts on what a more traditional but updated, non-DW length / width would be for 85 liters?
Take a look at the Appleslice V3 from Appletree - this is a more modern shape, it's longer and narrower than previous designs. The 80L I believe is about 22.5" wide. Obviously it is still wider than a light wind board but it will get you going faster than older wider designs regardless.
@@Wing-Tips thanks so much, that concrete example is exactly what I was looking for!
Great video as always! Im in the exact same boat: got a semi sinker for high wind and a sporty normal +15L board for lower winds. Looking to swap in the latter for a semi-DW style board at +10 or so. Only thing holding me back to buy is the choppy conditions even in lighter winds we get... Does the efficient shape of these boards really make it that much quicker slicing through the chop than a sporty normal board, or does the cross chop just slow it down as well so not a huge performance gain?
Yes the long pointy shape really helps in nasty cross chop, they just slice through it and maintain speed where as a decent bit of chop can completely kill all board speed on the normal shape boards.
@@Wing-Tips cool thanks for the reply. That's amazing, cross chop F's me so often! Get a gust build speed pump hard almost get on foil only to run into the back of a chop mountain that comes out of nowhere and shuts you down instantly. Will get a semi DW board in a few weeks then to get flying quicker in those conditions.
It will be great if you reivew the different subcategories:
- pure DW ( +20-+30L, 7,5' to 9' lenght) for ultra low winds
- true crossovers (+0L , 6'0 to 7'0)... just for wing in any condition (except for freestyle).
- others ?
I will be looking at +0L in a future video but it will be a few weeks I expect as the boards are still being made.
@@Wing-Tips
great !
btw, I believe the market is too much focused on width (18-20) while other key hull factors are overseen (flat vs rounded hull, narrow pin tail vs squared/cut tail, ...).
I ordered a custom carbon crossover, +5L , 6'4'' x 20', loving it as one-board-for-all'
@@franpinyol8500 I agree, this is why we tested two very different shaped boards in the video and they certainy behave quite differently.
DW boards are tippy, especially in choppy waters. Choppy water plus low wind is very difficult to deal with on a 20" wide DW board. I would suggest 25L more than one's weight for DW boards.
if you are a beginner then yes - which is why I said 20" minimum. For good intermediate riders a 20" board is not an issue, where I ride is super choppy and I'm currently riding an 18" board for another test - now that is tippy in the chop but the 20" is no problem at all (obviously I'm not a beginner)
Can these downwind crossover boards really be used for Downwinding? I am thinking of the Sunova Carver and the Amos Sultan Wing Board for example (sizes are ~6ft long, ~20 inch). From what i can, see it seems like proper downwinding is really difficult and requires an actual long ~7ft downwind board.
So do you end up needing 3 boards - one, a small wing board for high-wind foiling/prone, two, a light wind crossover board for light wind riding, and three, a proper downwind board?
Enjoyed the video thx!
you can downwind on these boards yes - if you have good balance and you have picked a board with the volume required to be able to just stand on it with a paddle. In this video I used a 6ft 10" board at only 90 litres - for me I could not downwind this as I am 85kg and there isn't quite enough volume for it to be possible to stand on this at my level of downwind capability. However - you could just have one made by swift-foiling of the same dimensions but a bit thicker and have it be 110L for example - and now I could use it for downwinding. There are of course compromises here - downwinding gets easier with length and wing foiling is better without length. So you have to decide where your primary use case lies. You can of course wing foil really long downwind boards but they are much less fun to use and a bit unwieldy. If you go for the wing foil use case and under 7ft then they are a bit harder to get up on foil for downwinding. So you have to pick where you want your compromise. Of course if you are a very light rider at say 65kg then you could use the 90L board for downwinding and not be making much compromise at all. You can also use these boards as sup foil boards in waves - which is a different use case to downwinding and actually works a bit better at the smaller lengths.
@@Wing-Tips Thanks! That makes sense. And would you ride the crossovers in higher wind say 25 to 35 knots?
@@petercook7798 I have ridden them in around 25 knots and a little more and there is no issue with doing so - but I would prefer to be on my short board for jumps and freestyle type stuff in those sort of conditions. If you aren't into that then there is no reason why they won't work in the larger more windy conditions, just be aware that in side on chop as per what I said in the video - they do tend to catch a bit more due to their length.
@@Wing-Tips What size short board do you ride?
@@petercook7798 it's a 60L 4'10" x 23" - I weigh 85kg, so it's very much a sinker under my weight
I plane to learn foiling, then pumping, only then winging. Using foil assist. In sea conditions. 95kg. Question if downwind 105l is good in pumping itself.
Or is 105l really needed , why not use dw smaller like 70L. After all foil assist will get me on the foil...
foil assist changes the dynamics because you are using power to get on foil rather than wind. I'm afarid I don't have experience with foil assist to be able to advise as to what would be the best route to take in your situation.
@@Wing-Tips how easy it is to pump on your downwind board?
extremely easy, way easier than pumping a normal board as the speed doesn't decay anything like as fast betwen pumps
@@Wing-Tips Ok, good. I mean without help of the wing, just to practice pumping. Suppose the wing helped you to get up and then put the wing back and just pump.
@vim55k downwind riders pump this type of shape board as they don't have a wing, only a paddle. They are different to pump than a short prone board, the length exaggerates what you see when you pump and I feel shorter boards are easier to pump as you have less board weight to deal with and a closer connection to the foil. This is why dock start foilers tend to use the smallest board possible, as they are easier for pumping.
Why not a mini DW board (white design on smaller dims) as a one board quiver for intermediates?
I have a video coming that talks about this. The problem is that as you reduce the dims you lose the gains from using a downwind shaped board - so it becomes questionable as to why you would want the shape over a more traditional shape as there are compromises that occur for doing this.
@@Wing-Tipsmake total sense. The question is finding your minimal dims for a fair paddle up and use it for winging or maybe small prone. I will go for a 76L 6’1 x 17” as my 4th DW board but I am aware that only a few people could sup this board range
@@cefirmeza I've been riding a 6ft x 18" by 80L board - however this is just for light wind winging, I weigh 82kg, so there is no way I'm going to stand on that with a paddle and if I did I would be knee deep in the water.
I think you would be surprised how long you could go if the boxes are long enough. I'd avoid any brand that put short board tracks in a dw shape.
I always put long tracks in my boards regardless of length
Thanks for the info. Why do you think you need that annoying background " music" ?
because the alternative is the on board sound from the camera - and you definitely won't like that as it's just a load of wind noise
10L more than your weight? I weigh 220lbs. There are no downwind boards more than 150L
Weight in Kilos. 220lb is 100kg
@arner2794 seriously?..... LOL well that's a difference~!
yeah always best to do weight in kilos as it equates directly to litres - so if you weigh 100kg then a 100L board will be neutral buoyancy.
Answer: no. No you don’t. 😂
Not the conclusion of the video, but if your preference is to ride something else, that is also fine.