I actually wrote them feedback about periscopes and I guess many others did, too. It is absolutely necessary for LAV and highly appreciated for BTR and BRDM ... at least on servers that have disabled 3rd person (which is what it actually should be). Also simple mirrors working on all other vehicles... that would help a lot for trucks. For LAV they worked around having to implement them by adding the turn out feature, where the driver can open the hatch and drive with the head sticking out on top. From the inside there is no way you can see anything if periscopes are not there. Also screens are not implemented, so that one is out of the equation, too. It's funny, because i'm sure screens are PIP, too, no? And there are already modded vehicles that have them and I did not notice any performance hit due to that.
Screens are not pip. Those are most likely just textures. But Arma 3 has screens that do PiP and periscopes that do PiP. And for optimization there is a slider and setting that allows you to change render distance and quality for PiP.
@@UkrNomad a screen that shows the outside of the vehicle with e.g. thermal like a camera? I'm not too deep in the technicality, but it has to render the outside and project it to the screen. not sure what that's called. You could do the same with the persicopes tbf
They should be make it so that when you look out a periscope/viewport your character puts their hand around/on them and zoom in just a bit and minimize the how much you can freelook, just to simulate grabbing the port, focusing your eyes on it, then moving your eyes around to scan the outside world while keeping a relatively simple concept. Just covered up by some animation details.
This is probably the best/most performant way to do it, instead of having constant PiP rendered on periscopes, regardless of a setting for that for 5090 owners, render PiP one at a time on the periscope you zoom in on/"select", which I think would be done best like at 1:54, potentially with an animation to line the camera up more with the periscope, to move the camera closer, get hands on if the periscope has any range of motion (all obviously depending on individual periscope qualities), and an eye relief-like transition (think already existing implementation of magnified optics, need some kind of smooth transition from black nothingness to an image), etc. Exiting this "activated" periscope view may be as simple as just tapping RMB to zoom out, and/or moving the camera horizontally to swap periscopes. This method of "entering" periscopes would also work for a potential 2d implementation for the 2d scopes setting. I feel like I've played a game that's already done this, but I can't put a name to it.
Which is exactly how it is IRL. I've only been in Bradleys, but aside from the driver's periscopes, you don't see ANYTHING other than light thru the periscopes just sitting in your seat. You have to look closely into them and if you're moving, you want to be holding on.
periscopes guys come onnnnn it is imperative. there are plenty of modded vehicles with periscopes that implement a very sufficient model. (press f to look through the perescope). why cant they just do that. easy fix imo come on guys
Modders have already added periscopes, WZ Tanks has them in it's vehicles. WZ Conflict adds periscopes to BTRs as well as mirrors for supply trucks and the Mi-8.
Elsewhere in the same AMA it was confirmed that side mirrors are coming eventually but they need to significantly optimize the performance of their picture-in-picture rendering system first, and I feel like the "maybe" in this response isn't so much a gameplay decision as it is a technical decision. One PiP surface for a sniper scope already has a notable performance impact on lower-end hardware, so having a minimum of three different PiP angles for three different periscopes means you're rendering the world beyond an additional three times beyond the main view could absolutely be detrimental for performance. The reason it worked in Arma 3 was because they took advantage of an inherent shortcut that Real Virtuality took to implement it in a very hacky way: the interior does not match the exterior position. Vehicle interiors in Real Virtuality use separate ViewPilot (or ViewGunner etc) LODs, which are only rendered while inside those respective seats, and not while turned out. This let them literally place the interior geometry about five inches higher than it would actually be, so that periscopes are actually just small windows that you look directly out of, which means you're not rendering any PiP panels at all (besides the single panel you get for the gunner sight, which you aren't even required to use since you can right click to enter the gun sight directly). That's also part of the reason many vehicles have a slight fade while turning out and turning in, to disguise the LOD transition. With Reforger, this approach is obviously no longer valid, as the entire vehicle is physically accurate. You open the hatch, look at the interior, and that's the exact same interior you'll be climbing into when you enter the vehicle. Doing periscopes by just punching holes in the hull wouldn't work since they wouldn't actually align with the vehicle's exterior periscopes, and you'd end up staring straight through the hull.
And to add some more of my own thoughts on why picture-in-picture might generally be problematic even if it had zero performance cost... it's a compromise that doesn't really accurately reflect the way real mirrors work either. PiP panels always have a fixed position; if you turn your head left and right or up and down, the parallax never changes, it's as if you're simply looking at a small TV screen attached to a fixed camera rather than through a mirror. This is genuinely a much bigger deal than you might think, as that subtle parallax shift you can get while looking around is extremely, extremely important for depth perception; anybody who's tried driving with Arma 3 PiP viewports on modded vehicles vs. the offset "real" viewports on Tanks DLC vehicles should be able to notice an immediate difference in their ability to gauge distances and depth, due to the fact that parallax is a natural consequence of looking around. Of course, the simplest solution would simply be that the periscope works sort of like gunner/commander sights currently do; right click, and your view snaps to a view of the forward-facing periscope, which is also how Tanks DLC worked as an optional way to drive. I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, but it's obviously still a compromise, and locks you out of the other periscopes. Having to leave a periscope and use an action menu prompt to look through different ones would work, but that's mildly clunky and isn't as smooth as simply looking at a different periscope would be. A better system might be holding a key and moving the mouse/thumbstick left or right to swap to the next-left or next-right periscope without having to leave the sight view,, but you'd have to figure out a decent controller scheme for that as well. Anyways, in summary, I don't think it's as easy as "devs pls prioritize it" because PiP rendering is a very, very complex problem to solve, and shortcuts taken in past games either straight up wouldn't work or would be difficult to implement in a satisfactory way.
You're exactly right, but either way they need to find a solution for Arma 4. Folk are willing to accept that Reforger is experimental to some degree - it's the proving ground for this tech after all. Not having practical first person driving options in Arma 4? Nah bruv. There'd be riots. Folk think of stuff like that RV camera-offset method as cheating - but it wasn't, at least not more than the experience as a whole. Games are all smoke and mirrors. Having a very detailed fakery only matters if it behaves the way we want it to. I love the interiors and the animation fluidity in the new engine, but some features are worth a loss in fidelity. That's why people loved (and continue to play) ArmA in the first place. Gun-sight style periscopes (aim to lock-in on a seperately configured camera position) wouldn't be ideal, but I would absolutely take them over nothing at all.
i played on a modded fps server around 9 months ago, and they had mod which let you press f at looking w looking at it and your would then only see the the perspective of the periscope( not pip just the render of the outside plus a mask) and i think that should be the minimal thing they should aim for
I think a possible solution for the performance issues with the periscope is where you can maybe enter a separate mode where the periscope would be displayed separately, but the interior of the BTR would be either blurred or blacked out. Not sure if this makes sense when I write it out, but it’s kind of the idea I had. In my mind, it would be something like press this key to go into periscope mode and then you would have four smaller displays that would be rendered in low quality for users. You don’t have high-quality and then you could individually go into each periscope and see around you.
Red Orchestra 2: heroes of Stalingrad had working periscopes in 2011. my guess is those are actually just windows but the outer skin of the vehicle is transparent from the inside, they dont seem like PIP. so what you're seeing is technically too low but good enough for driving/giving firing orders. sights for gunners/commanders are just like in Arma where you "ADS" zoom in.
RHSAFRF Mod in ARMA 3 solved this problem from what I've seen by limiting the render distance and limiting the FPS in which the viewports/periscopes were rendered, thereby saving performance
I think we should appreciate the "maybe". It means they are looking into it, but are not going to waste too much time and delay other planned features if it proves to be too complex.
This and variable zoom optics for the vehicles gunner seat are very critical for the vehicle gameplay. Obviously it isn’t the main focus of refrogger, but I’ve had many awesome matches having a fire team follow my btr and assault a point with combined arms tactics.
For me both, Suppression and Periscopes are equally important and reading the response to both of these topics really left a sour taste. There are two mods currently that I know of that give the BTR the periscope funtionality called "PIPTR" and "FPTR". The first uses PIP when you actually look at the periscope, so only one is active at a time, where the latter is not GPU heavy by giving you an action to perform on the periscope to look out (only the view of this periscope is rendered). Both are IMO a bandaid, but still better then not having anything to look out. If they let mods alone fix that area then I'm certain we will never get mirrors either and A4 will not have anything for that as well. What a bummer...
@@TheDAWinz that's why it shouldn't be blurry screen but flinching. Every soldier flinches when a bullet is flying past them. I agree that it shouldn't be the gamey suppression seen in most games, but it's just unrealistic that you can aim perfectly while being under heavy fire. The whole point of suppression is to limit the suppressed entities capability to fire back, right now in Reforger I can easily do that and have in some situations even the upper hand as I can clearly see where the fire is coming from. You all need to get free of the impression that suppression=blurry screen.
Suppression is another bummer from this qna. “Just get immersed brah” is never gonna work when PVP is involved. People will do anything to come out on top. Not even wanting screen effects and blur, just a flinch or something so the guy hiding somewhere in a bush that I’m shooting at with a 50cal can’t just patiently line up a one shot while rounds land all around him
6:44 this is something I absolutely hope we have. arma 3 having automated loaders in manually loaded vehicles was just plain stupid and super ruined the immersion
I also hope that people can understand that not every single feature that isn’t implemented into Arma reforge right now is because of consoles. I think the argument you made about modded features making their way into the features of the next game is a good argument to have in the case of that .
I believe this sim is going to launch like msfs2024 first we got 2020 its was like the test bed for 2024 where the devs had way more going for the actual full game but 2020 was great so guess when 2027 gets here this game is going to really blow up between this and gta 6 ima be occupied for like the next 10-15 yrs 😂
Suppression is debatable imo, should at least be a feature that can be disabled. It may be helpful for more authentic player behaviour but at the same time it can quickly feel forced, hollywoody and not authentic for the player himself. It was very controversial in our A3 community and we only switched to it when our pvp share of missions dropped in recent years.
@@nomisum I agree I don’t necessarily like suppression and it should be an option. For the most part when I’m being shot at I tend not to get out of cover. I think having a very slight amount of audio distortion and blurring but nothing over the top like HLL.
What the hell do you mean maybe? FPP only servers exist, you game is first person primary. That feature existed in Arma since at least Arma 2. We already have PnP sights, we could get at least ability to watch into them as "aim" through them. Not giving us any periscope support is bullshit way of saying "Sorry guys, we did not plan for Reforger to explode in popularity, we already closing development and moving to Arma 4"
it's definitely possible and imo, the devs need to start setting a high standard for arma 4. vehicles with no windows NEED periscopes, if we are still having this discussion in 2027.. something went horribly wrong if they can guarantee we would have these missing features in arma 4, i would be sorta ok without reforger having them
also, i don't think arma4 is going to continue the cold war era. i think they're going back to 2035+. we want drones and other modern equipment. the cold war stuff is fine for reforger
I think a possible solution for the performance issues with the periscope is where you can maybe enter a separate mode where the periscope would be displayed separately, but the interior of the BTR would be either blurred or blacked out. Not sure if this makes sense when I write it out, but it’s kind of the idea I had. In my mind, it would be something like press this key to go into periscope mode and then you would have four smaller displays that would be rendered in low quality for users. You don’t have high-quality and then you could individually go into each periscope and see around you.
I feel like they should be more of a requirement if they're going to have the option for first person only servers
I actually wrote them feedback about periscopes and I guess many others did, too. It is absolutely necessary for LAV and highly appreciated for BTR and BRDM ... at least on servers that have disabled 3rd person (which is what it actually should be). Also simple mirrors working on all other vehicles... that would help a lot for trucks.
For LAV they worked around having to implement them by adding the turn out feature, where the driver can open the hatch and drive with the head sticking out on top. From the inside there is no way you can see anything if periscopes are not there. Also screens are not implemented, so that one is out of the equation, too. It's funny, because i'm sure screens are PIP, too, no? And there are already modded vehicles that have them and I did not notice any performance hit due to that.
Screens are not pip. Those are most likely just textures. But Arma 3 has screens that do PiP and periscopes that do PiP. And for optimization there is a slider and setting that allows you to change render distance and quality for PiP.
@@UkrNomad a screen that shows the outside of the vehicle with e.g. thermal like a camera? I'm not too deep in the technicality, but it has to render the outside and project it to the screen. not sure what that's called. You could do the same with the persicopes tbf
They should be make it so that when you look out a periscope/viewport your character puts their hand around/on them and zoom in just a bit and minimize the how much you can freelook, just to simulate grabbing the port, focusing your eyes on it, then moving your eyes around to scan the outside world while keeping a relatively simple concept. Just covered up by some animation details.
This is probably the best/most performant way to do it, instead of having constant PiP rendered on periscopes, regardless of a setting for that for 5090 owners, render PiP one at a time on the periscope you zoom in on/"select", which I think would be done best like at 1:54, potentially with an animation to line the camera up more with the periscope, to move the camera closer, get hands on if the periscope has any range of motion (all obviously depending on individual periscope qualities), and an eye relief-like transition (think already existing implementation of magnified optics, need some kind of smooth transition from black nothingness to an image), etc.
Exiting this "activated" periscope view may be as simple as just tapping RMB to zoom out, and/or moving the camera horizontally to swap periscopes. This method of "entering" periscopes would also work for a potential 2d implementation for the 2d scopes setting. I feel like I've played a game that's already done this, but I can't put a name to it.
Which is exactly how it is IRL. I've only been in Bradleys, but aside from the driver's periscopes, you don't see ANYTHING other than light thru the periscopes just sitting in your seat. You have to look closely into them and if you're moving, you want to be holding on.
@@allencowan6692 okay, but how does the driver do it? He can't hold on to "his" periscopes while driving... he needs his hands, no?
@ no, the hatch on the Bradley when fully closed puts the periscopes (and there are four of them) pretty close to his face.
@@tiberius8390 I also think the driver's are bigger. It's been a long time since I was on one. 🤣
periscopes guys come onnnnn
it is imperative.
there are plenty of modded vehicles with periscopes that implement a very sufficient model. (press f to look through the perescope).
why cant they just do that. easy fix imo come on guys
Yes, in Red Orchestra 2 it's implemented. One of the best shooters with vehicle mechanics in it, and Arma definitely needs this mechanic
I was just thinking this
Such a great game.
Modders have already added periscopes, WZ Tanks has them in it's vehicles. WZ Conflict adds periscopes to BTRs as well as mirrors for supply trucks and the Mi-8.
What's WZ?
@Yermansk West Zagoria affiliated mods
Elsewhere in the same AMA it was confirmed that side mirrors are coming eventually but they need to significantly optimize the performance of their picture-in-picture rendering system first, and I feel like the "maybe" in this response isn't so much a gameplay decision as it is a technical decision. One PiP surface for a sniper scope already has a notable performance impact on lower-end hardware, so having a minimum of three different PiP angles for three different periscopes means you're rendering the world beyond an additional three times beyond the main view could absolutely be detrimental for performance.
The reason it worked in Arma 3 was because they took advantage of an inherent shortcut that Real Virtuality took to implement it in a very hacky way: the interior does not match the exterior position. Vehicle interiors in Real Virtuality use separate ViewPilot (or ViewGunner etc) LODs, which are only rendered while inside those respective seats, and not while turned out. This let them literally place the interior geometry about five inches higher than it would actually be, so that periscopes are actually just small windows that you look directly out of, which means you're not rendering any PiP panels at all (besides the single panel you get for the gunner sight, which you aren't even required to use since you can right click to enter the gun sight directly). That's also part of the reason many vehicles have a slight fade while turning out and turning in, to disguise the LOD transition.
With Reforger, this approach is obviously no longer valid, as the entire vehicle is physically accurate. You open the hatch, look at the interior, and that's the exact same interior you'll be climbing into when you enter the vehicle. Doing periscopes by just punching holes in the hull wouldn't work since they wouldn't actually align with the vehicle's exterior periscopes, and you'd end up staring straight through the hull.
And to add some more of my own thoughts on why picture-in-picture might generally be problematic even if it had zero performance cost... it's a compromise that doesn't really accurately reflect the way real mirrors work either. PiP panels always have a fixed position; if you turn your head left and right or up and down, the parallax never changes, it's as if you're simply looking at a small TV screen attached to a fixed camera rather than through a mirror. This is genuinely a much bigger deal than you might think, as that subtle parallax shift you can get while looking around is extremely, extremely important for depth perception; anybody who's tried driving with Arma 3 PiP viewports on modded vehicles vs. the offset "real" viewports on Tanks DLC vehicles should be able to notice an immediate difference in their ability to gauge distances and depth, due to the fact that parallax is a natural consequence of looking around.
Of course, the simplest solution would simply be that the periscope works sort of like gunner/commander sights currently do; right click, and your view snaps to a view of the forward-facing periscope, which is also how Tanks DLC worked as an optional way to drive. I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, but it's obviously still a compromise, and locks you out of the other periscopes. Having to leave a periscope and use an action menu prompt to look through different ones would work, but that's mildly clunky and isn't as smooth as simply looking at a different periscope would be. A better system might be holding a key and moving the mouse/thumbstick left or right to swap to the next-left or next-right periscope without having to leave the sight view,, but you'd have to figure out a decent controller scheme for that as well.
Anyways, in summary, I don't think it's as easy as "devs pls prioritize it" because PiP rendering is a very, very complex problem to solve, and shortcuts taken in past games either straight up wouldn't work or would be difficult to implement in a satisfactory way.
You're exactly right, but either way they need to find a solution for Arma 4. Folk are willing to accept that Reforger is experimental to some degree - it's the proving ground for this tech after all. Not having practical first person driving options in Arma 4? Nah bruv. There'd be riots.
Folk think of stuff like that RV camera-offset method as cheating - but it wasn't, at least not more than the experience as a whole. Games are all smoke and mirrors. Having a very detailed fakery only matters if it behaves the way we want it to. I love the interiors and the animation fluidity in the new engine, but some features are worth a loss in fidelity. That's why people loved (and continue to play) ArmA in the first place.
Gun-sight style periscopes (aim to lock-in on a seperately configured camera position) wouldn't be ideal, but I would absolutely take them over nothing at all.
i played on a modded fps server around 9 months ago, and they had mod which let you press f at looking w looking at it and your would then only see the the perspective of the periscope( not pip just the render of the outside plus a mask) and i think that should be the minimal thing they should aim for
I think a possible solution for the performance issues with the periscope is where you can maybe enter a separate mode where the periscope would be displayed separately, but the interior of the BTR would be either blurred or blacked out. Not sure if this makes sense when I write it out, but it’s kind of the idea I had.
In my mind, it would be something like press this key to go into periscope mode and then you would have four smaller displays that would be rendered in low quality for users. You don’t have high-quality and then you could individually go into each periscope and see around you.
this is the same with the new recon vehicle the US gets in experimental, the driver cannot see outside the vehicle without using third person atm
Thats glaringly stupid for such a genius game
Red Orchestra 2: heroes of Stalingrad had working periscopes in 2011. my guess is those are actually just windows but the outer skin of the vehicle is transparent from the inside, they dont seem like PIP. so what you're seeing is technically too low but good enough for driving/giving firing orders. sights for gunners/commanders are just like in Arma where you "ADS" zoom in.
Really do need a periscope feels like im staring out of a mousehole whenever im driving this thing
RHSAFRF Mod in ARMA 3 solved this problem from what I've seen by limiting the render distance and limiting the FPS in which the viewports/periscopes were rendered, thereby saving performance
well maybe he's not sure or something changed but in the reforger discord one of the admins said that they would be added.
I think we should appreciate the "maybe". It means they are looking into it, but are not going to waste too much time and delay other planned features if it proves to be too complex.
If they are going to have enclosed armored vehicles periscopes are a must. 3rd person camera being mandatory to drive these.vehicles is unacceptable.
This and variable zoom optics for the vehicles gunner seat are very critical for the vehicle gameplay. Obviously it isn’t the main focus of refrogger, but I’ve had many awesome matches having a fire team follow my btr and assault a point with combined arms tactics.
For me both, Suppression and Periscopes are equally important and reading the response to both of these topics really left a sour taste. There are two mods currently that I know of that give the BTR the periscope funtionality called "PIPTR" and "FPTR". The first uses PIP when you actually look at the periscope, so only one is active at a time, where the latter is not GPU heavy by giving you an action to perform on the periscope to look out (only the view of this periscope is rendered). Both are IMO a bandaid, but still better then not having anything to look out.
If they let mods alone fix that area then I'm certain we will never get mirrors either and A4 will not have anything for that as well. What a bummer...
@@DrCox-xx8tu well klamacz did say wing mirrors are in development and will get added
Suppression is complete nonsense people react differently to gunfire irl but tunnel vision and blurry vision they do not have
@@TheDAWinz that's why it shouldn't be blurry screen but flinching. Every soldier flinches when a bullet is flying past them.
I agree that it shouldn't be the gamey suppression seen in most games, but it's just unrealistic that you can aim perfectly while being under heavy fire. The whole point of suppression is to limit the suppressed entities capability to fire back, right now in Reforger I can easily do that and have in some situations even the upper hand as I can clearly see where the fire is coming from.
You all need to get free of the impression that suppression=blurry screen.
He said they will be implementing them, if you go through his account Q&A, another reactionary video lol
Suppression is another bummer from this qna. “Just get immersed brah” is never gonna work when PVP is involved. People will do anything to come out on top.
Not even wanting screen effects and blur, just a flinch or something so the guy hiding somewhere in a bush that I’m shooting at with a 50cal can’t just patiently line up a one shot while rounds land all around him
6:44 this is something I absolutely hope we have. arma 3 having automated loaders in manually loaded vehicles was just plain stupid and super ruined the immersion
I’m still peeved that they don’t have reload animations for HMG/Emplacements.
Genuinely sucks
Theres a Mod already out there for this Lol. They can for sure do this.
Are there currently any modded vehicles that have working periscopes ?
Bradleys, m113, bmp3 and some modern wheeled russian ifv.
There are also mods that vanilla vehicles( that need it) some periscopes
I also hope that people can understand that not every single feature that isn’t implemented into Arma reforge right now is because of consoles.
I think the argument you made about modded features making their way into the features of the next game is a good argument to have in the case of that .
The netcode is already beyond it's breaking point, they cannot add things like periscopes to the game.
So they can’t just make the same formula from the other arma’s? Omg these guys are either lazy or just a whole separate BI team lol
I believe this sim is going to launch like msfs2024 first we got 2020 its was like the test bed for 2024 where the devs had way more going for the actual full game but 2020 was great so guess when 2027 gets here this game is going to really blow up between this and gta 6 ima be occupied for like the next 10-15 yrs 😂
Suppression is debatable imo, should at least be a feature that can be disabled. It may be helpful for more authentic player behaviour but at the same time it can quickly feel forced, hollywoody and not authentic for the player himself. It was very controversial in our A3 community and we only switched to it when our pvp share of missions dropped in recent years.
@@nomisum I agree I don’t necessarily like suppression and it should be an option. For the most part when I’m being shot at I tend not to get out of cover. I think having a very slight amount of audio distortion and blurring but nothing over the top like HLL.
What the hell do you mean maybe? FPP only servers exist, you game is first person primary. That feature existed in Arma since at least Arma 2. We already have PnP sights, we could get at least ability to watch into them as "aim" through them. Not giving us any periscope support is bullshit way of saying "Sorry guys, we did not plan for Reforger to explode in popularity, we already closing development and moving to Arma 4"
Don't get me started on no actual support for tracked vehicles, fixed wings, night vision or thermals. And other stuff.
it's definitely possible and imo, the devs need to start setting a high standard for arma 4.
vehicles with no windows NEED periscopes, if we are still having this discussion in 2027.. something went horribly wrong
if they can guarantee we would have these missing features in arma 4, i would be sorta ok without reforger having them
also, i don't think arma4 is going to continue the cold war era. i think they're going back to 2035+. we want drones and other modern equipment. the cold war stuff is fine for reforger
I think a possible solution for the performance issues with the periscope is where you can maybe enter a separate mode where the periscope would be displayed separately, but the interior of the BTR would be either blurred or blacked out. Not sure if this makes sense when I write it out, but it’s kind of the idea I had.
In my mind, it would be something like press this key to go into periscope mode and then you would have four smaller displays that would be rendered in low quality for users. You don’t have high-quality and then you could individually go into each periscope and see around you.