Відео

Nice video, I disagree with the idea completely though. Camera shake IS the only way to realistically represent recoil. If you have shot a gun in real life then you know the second the round goes off your eyes shake as the recoil kicks back into your stance. Camera shake is necessary, otherwise you just have laser guns.

i agree i hate reforgers gunplay wish it was more like squad in certain ways too

i have a solution to all of these problems hear me out ... arma VR.

i have a airsoft m16a1 and if i turn right and left, it barely misalines the sight, its almost impossible to do that for the m16 since your head is resting on the stock.

10 years as an US Army Infantryman here. Long comment in regards to "Realism" in relation to the past few videos I've seen you post. (i.e. the MG Recoil and this one). TL:DR make arm stamina a thing, make weight matter, and make shooting positions matter. Recoil should be punchy but predictable. Games either over simulate the perceived recoil/weapons sway/ect or under simulate it. Mainly because I feel most game Devs don't have much weapon experience and they want the game to be "playable" in their opinion. In my opinion Reforger and the future arma titles should incorporate a "arm stamina" system similar to Escape from Tarkov, You hold your arms out in front of you for extended periods of time, your aim starts to shake... simple and effective. The heavier the weapon, the faster the arm stamina depletes. Sight alignment/weapons sway: Using squad as an example, they over simulate the weapons sway/sight alignment, but its because their fatigue system only applies to sprint stamina. They have no weight simulation, no weapon mass simulation, and no arm "stamina" simulation. So to make up for the lack of those simulated areas they make the muzzle end of the weapon "lag" behind your mouse movements to simulate that weight, when firing the recoil is like that of a news anchor firing a AR-15 for the first time (if you know you know lol). Reforger does a much better job of simulating recoil as far as returning recoil into the shooter horizontally rather than an random arbitrary movement of up/down/left/right as seen in squad. Recoil/Cam shake/sight alignment: Realistically any untrained person, if holding the firearm properly... can manage recoil. Stance, weapon positioning, and posture all apply. In regards to games and devs, they try to "Balance" it so it doesnt seem like all guns are laser-beams. So they implement random movements and cam shake to simulate the recoil/shake up the weapon to make it difficult to aim more precise. But like I said above, the big thing that is over looked is the "arm stamina", stance, and posture aspect. Alot of gamers fail to realize weight and stamina when it comes to "war fighter" games. Grab a backpack, put 60 pounds (27 Kg) in it, go run for 100-200-300m, throw in holding a 10-25 pounds (4.5-11 Kg) out in front of you and tell me youre not fatigued. Now manage sight alignment, proper sight picture, your breathing, and shoot accurately at 200-300m. Personal opinion, there should be more aim sway/cam shake standing and firing unsupported, much less when standing supported. 2/3rds of that when crouched unsupported and less when crouched supported. Prone being the best shooting position, both unsupported and supported.

the way red orchestra handles their gun mechanics is likely the best where it's disconnected from the players camera and sways further left, right, up, or down depending on where you look. it also leads to hipfiring being harder to do than a predictable laser system

Helldivers oddly enough has fairly realistic weapon handling in that heavier weapons have noticeably more inertia to them and are harder to swing around quickly. Sights shouldn't really misalign like they do when moving around in Squad, rather it should be inertia-based. This plus Rising Storm's sight misalignment when firing would be a dream come true.

I've been playing this game for almost 30 hours and I still don't fucking understand how this map works.

The sight misalignment you demonstrated from the game Squad, where when you aim left, the front sight shifts way left in reference to the center of the aperture (rear sight) to the point that the front sight even went outside of the rear aperture, and I believe the aperture is being gently pushed the opposite way, well that is highly unrealistic. That would only happen to a noticeable extent if the stock was not in the pocket of your shoulder and your cheek was not putting your head's weight on the stock ("cheek weld"), as it should be when you are aiming; the exception being a lot of guys don't utilize a cheek weld if they're using night vision (aiming passively with IR devices), and some guys use a "chin weld," which is a good halfway point in the event that your optic is mounted in a high position above the boreline to where, when looking through said optic, your chin touches the stock instead of your cheek. If you were firing a weapon which did not have a stock, fair enough, what you say is true (to a lesser extent, I'd argue), but this should definitely not be the case for aiming (through sights or optics) involving weapons with stocks because there are 2 points of contact with a stock; where it interfaces with the pocket of the shoulder and your cheek so that it turns with you (for the most part), not out of sync from your body's turns, thus your front sight shouldn't be off-center much at all even in the wildest far-and-fast transitions from target-to-target. Granted, you're not supposed to stay locked within your sights and then "finding" new targets from within your sights, but nonetheless, if you were, the sights should not be oscillating out of alignment to the degree that Squad shows this; your head is turning until your eyes see something, then the firearm moves with your body as you turn toward it, and it should be a fluid motion to where once your body is turned toward the target, your aim is pretty much there once you've raised the firearm and you make minor adjustments within the sight picture; the firearm isn't really being "dragged" as if it's completely detached from your body (unless it truly is, like a long gun such as an AK variant with a folded stock or something with all of the weight of the firearm placed within only your hands). No one is perfect, but Squad's representation is insanely hyperbolic due to the good old phrase: "for gameplay reasons." So far, BY FAR, Arma Reforger replicates this the best, in my opinion, though it does feel a good bit "cleaner" than in real life (at least at my skill level; I come from a recreational/competitive shooting background). What you're showing in Squad should basically only be a phenomenon with handguns involving people who aren't on a professional level of proficiency with handguns, which is probably the guys depicted in both games, Arma Reforger and Squad, because it seems like the game is depicting more-standard infantry guys, not really Special Forces/Law Enforcement guys who do, should, or have to practice with handguns a lot. I think a better proposal is to take Escape From Tarkov's example of movement speed increases and decreases with certain weapons, which have a locked modifier attached to your aim sensitivity, which could also be modified by how much weight your loadout has in it. Theoretically, a guy could have a lighter weapon such as the M16 Carbine / XM4, but if he brings 30 magazines with him and 10 grenades of each type with him (Arma Reforger moment haha), he weighs more than a proper M249 gunner loadout with a couple spare belts and a handgun with a few magazines, and thus the prior turns slower in general due to a heavier center of gravity, but maybe he turns faster than the M249 gunner (in regards to transitioning targets while aiming) due to a lighter weapon away from his center of gravity, that type of thing. I went back and edited this for clarity a few times.

Good points you made but please don't use this fake video as reference. Pretty sure they use blank ammo (less recoil), so the other dude can look "cool".

Movement IRL is mostly front sight. I think the front sight movements IRL are also way, way more chaotic when you try to turn fast and there is a lot of up-down movement because your arms rotate weird IRL, they do not swivel like a camera on a tripod.

I like the sight picture ideas, but I'd point out that the rear sight shouldn't move much, virtually all the movement should be in the front sight. This is because the shooter would really have a "cheek weld" i.e. their cheek pressed tightly against the stock. Even on some guns with a "poor cheek weld", like the AK series, the shooter still has a weld against their jaw. Additionally, the rear sight is typically very close to the eye, actually about as close as possible to increase the sight radius, so the effect of any misalignment on the rear sight is minimal, while the front sight is typically mounted as for forward as practical for the same reason, and thus the effect of misalignment is magnified.

Reforger supports sight misalignment - the next experimental update has a good example when you fit the new suppressors to the M16, and in our next update of British Forces mod we will have a couple weapons (mp5k, Carl Gustav) that make this effect very apparent. I want to do it to all our weapons, but it'd suck if you had to go up against vanilla and other mods that don't have the effect.

Updated weight ( slowing effect ) will help stop players hording supplies at the start of the game lol .. they will be slow asf, hoping it'll help train new guys to refine their kits

Squad is not a good example. You seriously cant say thats realistic, squads ICO is like old tarkov's recoil, there is no stock and the sights misalign for whatever reason all the time. And lets not talk about how unfit the characters are

additionally I think squads point to shoot feels very natural and reminds me of previous arma deadzone but better, at the moment reforgers weapons point straight to centre of screen and just feels so cheap

that delay movement on the FNMAG on squad is just terrible, your axis point is your shoulder(right) and your movement comes from your holding arm(left), the movement in the game seems to simulate flexing the right wrist and the gun moving slow from back to front, that just bad

4:26 totally agree. It adds personality and variety to the weapons, recoil and suppression would make gun fights last longer because now you would know you are being shot rather than just wondering - causing you to find cover. I made a video and a feature request a few months ago comparing the 2 games, although it was made quickly and without too much effort, somethings I wrote should be considered to be added in the game. And yes, not as brutal as Squad. What they could do is, since it is a simulator, add a toggle - casual or realistic. Some people might prefer the current low recoil and no suppression (casual) than what we are talking about, let them have that choice. (something like the Arma 3 RECRUIT and VETERAN system) Even Arma 3 has flinches when bullets fly by and weapons feel heavy and take time to adjust. So yea, add Arma 3 and DayZ aswell to that "take inspiration" list. (made a small video comparing the games in the comments in my feedback.bistudio page that is on the below mencioned video description) As you said - get inspiration from those games, do not copy them. I said that aswell in the arma feedback page. Video comparison ArmA Reforger x Squad: ua-cam.com/video/ApwQe0AGGCg/v-deo.html Great video. Edit: typo correction

Great point about the heavier guns. It's ridiculous how many players run around with M60s and PKMs like they're assault rifles...I also can't stand the side to side strafing movement that players do. Its so unrealistic and "gamey"

Check "Enhanced weapon immersion" in experimental game workshop

The only thing about aim sway as you see in video games such as squad is that it really does not work like that in real life and I think that's what the Arma devs were going for. When you aim down the sights and move the rifle the sight picture should stay almost glued to your eyesight, otherwise you are doing something terribly wrong. I cant speak on heavy machine guns because I've never used any but I'd assume its the same just due to the mechanics of the human body. What would be more accurate to reality than the sight picture misaligning, would likely be for the whole entire gun to lag behind the eyes while still maintaining a sight picture. The one thing that I wish was better represented in Arma is the effects of arm fatigue. Holding a rifle straight for long periods of time is a lot more challenging than it seems and combined with physical activity will have more diminishing effects on your sight picture than anything else.

3 years late but really helpful video

Good points, the game for even more realistic features, should have stoppages, caused by overheating, dudes firing heavy support weapons or even technical weapons on vehicles or mounted. Stops the Rambo type players not using the weapon as it should be used in a short burst of 3 rounds. Them barrels get hot and often need changing over on bigger MGs.

when are you coming back to the Everon +18 RP server man

Ive always thought this and loved this mechanic in games. Its why I always use enhanced recoil lole.

I could have sworn Arma 3 had sight misalignment, I do not know why it was removed in arma reforger

I dont know if you still care about these videos, but i have been binge watching your cyberpunk videos in the backround while i try to sleep ^^.. i struggle alot with insomnia and your voice is really calm, soothing yet natural. I appreciate it alot, thank you for this content :)

What server?

I disagree, it should the other way around. They should increase the recoil to all weapons (not mounted). All weapons have way to low recoil, you can shoot full auto and hit pretty easy the target. I have shooting experience and always laught about this videos with "easy weapon". You always see them shooting full auto, but they never show the targets hits because they didnt hit anything but then say "has no recoil, good to handle".

In the second there nothing for gas to push so no recoil if the gun was closed it woud have moved

As far as game balance is concerned, inaccuracy tends to make MGs more effective in video games for their intended role: suppression.

Is this a german jordan peterson speaking?

This video comes off as overly picky and seems to be mostly based on hand picked internet videos, rather than actually real world machine gunner experience. Not saying you shouldn't voice your opinion, you are perfectly within your rights to do so. I just don't agree that its that big of a deal or pertinent.

MG3 firing with bolt back mimics the mechanics of a recoilless grenade launcher. It's a tube with open ends; bullet or rocket goes out the front, propellant goes out the rear canceling out the recoil.

IDF soldier here, I shot around 6000 round of 7.62x51(FN Mag) (not mounted) and around 300 mounted, and shot a couple thousand rounds with a m4. (and shot with other gun but not nearly as much as those two) and there is couple thing to take into account. the recoils, is definitely not near the video game ones, the whole gun react differently than in game, and you can have an awesome recoil control with the right position (all those are even written in the manuals) when I see devs shooting range you definitely can see they pay no attention to positioning while shooting, so of course if you hold a weapon like a 2 year old, even if you use all your strength you will have a big recoil sensation, because you don't control recoil with strength but with your body positioning/weight. BUT you have a lot to take into consideration that is not simulated in the game, you often close your eyes (very fast) while shooting in semi, that is not simulated in game. very few shooter even with a lot of experience can shoot without that closing eye reflexe, it depend on the shooter and it took me year of experience to stop close my eye while shooting. game don't simulate proper bullet dispersion which is usually by far more than in game, and I am not talking only bullet drop (that many game do simulate) games don't simulate also fatigue, very few does, it also don't simulate that for many light machine gun you can't aim down sight without resting the gun, especially any light machine gun that use bigger ammo than 5.56 (you can but in combat you can't.) also don't simulate weapon getting dirty having a lot of issue because of it, don't simulate trigger jump , don't simulate fragmentation of bullet when you shoot close object... so many thing that might prevent you to hit a target, are not simulated, so that "over the top" recoil is what "balance" this. maybe one day we'll see such simulation, Squad is on the right way with the last gun handling update, tarkov also a good mention. Arma still have a long way to go, but it excels in other things.

When shooting machine guns the effect of the recoil is not really that the gun gets pushed back but rather just affecting the shooter in losing sight picture, sight alignment and to some extent the target

way too clear that nobody in the comments and also the author of the video has ever fired a machine gun

I think if they decreased recoil there would be no reason to carry any other weapon other than MGs, so in terms of recoil it just becomes a gameplay mechanic. camera shake should be removed though. I haven't played reformer in a while so I can't remember whether weight causes movement mitigation, but better recoil could only truly be included if there was accurate weight representation that slows your movements down significantly. especially things like walking and shooting, where the MG should only be useable in static positions.

I'd say that camera shake would be realistic on guns like a pkm, that you would lean into even if it was mounted. However, camera shake wouldn't be realistic on a gun like a M2 where you would not be shouldering the gun and your only contact point with the gun would be your hands.

what I do think we need is turrets with a spring/recoil dampener, this will mean the recoil itself can be seen and isnt an effect on the camera, additionally recoil should apply a force directly on the weapon fixture, this in turn would possibly force a tripod upward or put stress on a vehicles suspension, this would be an amazing effect for the upcoming lav and current armed vehicles whilst sticking to realism.

2:39 the reason for no visible recoil is due to the rounds pressure no longer being contained, therefore the casing itself was most likely shot outward quite violently.

Loading the bipod...... you shown in first clip of a runaway m60. Flat surface area, bipod loaded all through out that belt didn't go hand's off nothing. What really does matter most to recoil is muzzle brake/comp/hiders, weapon weight, low bore axis, recoil mechanism, bi-pod loading. Many thing's to consider when simulating recoil of any type of firearm. I genuinely don't mind the screen shaking to simulate recoil.

Aiming weapons in real life is much harder compared to arma. With recoil, you can understand it and adjust for it, but you cannot clearly see the target at 200m shooting full auto

Nah Bro mg3 barrel moves back and forth. If you want realism, you would have to change the mg3 barrel after every 150 rounds

I wish I had your voice :)

man you must be really fucking bored

Also. They should add acceleration to the player movement. I feel like movement in Reforger or well Arma in general is very stiff. Acceleration makes movement less stiff and also adds realism to the fact that when you're heavy or moving too fast the time it takes to stop depends on that. (And it makes sniping easier)

Been thinking for years that all this camera shake stuff should be completely removed. Using Tarkov as an example; the gun play was fun in early stages of the game because there was very little/no camera shake. One update, the devs decided to introduce "gun balancing" and just made recoil and camera shake x100 what it is in real life and the whole playerbase started roasting EFT's decision. They later toned it back down but with finer details and such that it mimics realistic guns pretty well.

I respectfully disagree with making the MG's have less felt recoil or tighter beaten zones. I agree with you on getting rid of the camera shake. TL;DR Pintle mounted weapons have a large beaten zone compared to rested weapons and bipods. Suppression needs to matter. MG’s do not need to be lasers. I would anticipate that the RPK with the pintle mount on the UAZ will have plenty of felt recoil because 1) the pintle is under the center of mass (as opposed to if it had been mounted near the gas block so you could better 'load' the mount) and 2) the suspension system on the vehicle causing the whole vehicle to gently sway. Movements measured in millimeters at the barrel can have effects measured in meters downrange. When you put weight or tension on the bipod we call that loading the bipod. The reason that MG3 doesn't recoil is because the bipod is loaded. Same with the last rounds of the runaway M60 (whereas he is not able to load the bipod for the first shots because of how smooth the surface of the table is.) That first M2 is on a tripod, similar to loading a bipod you can take slack out of the tripods T&E by adding shoulder pressure. This makes the weapon accurate enough to hit a target that is 3 men abreast at 1km. I find that when firing from a bipod in Reforger the weapons are insanely accurate. Firing any weapon from the standing unsupported is going to have more felt recoil/be less accurate than a weapon fired from other firing positions (i.e standing supported, kneeling, kneeling supported, prone, etc.). You can still engage man sized targets within 100m easily firing from the hip, or by tucking the MG under your armpit. Hitting a target with a full-auto burst from the standing unsupported at a target 200m away is not impossible but it is difficult. You need to lean into the weapon (in order to control the burst) sort of like those old WW2 shooting stances, acquire the target, let off a controlled burst and then reset your shot process so that you can re-engage the target. The RPK, SAW, and M60 will push you around in the standing unsupported. I had a difficult time trying to hit man-sized targets from the standing unsupported position with a full burst - to mean that part of the burst would hit the target but of 8 rounds 5 would not have hit. As far as firing from the fence is concerned. You have less contact surface due to how round it is, check out videos of people shooting PRS or NRL, while this is precision shooting you will see people using bags in order to increase contact surface, and mould a better firing position. So when you fire the RPK from the fence the recoil is going to want to move the weapon backwards and perhaps laterally because of that small contact surface. My opinion is that the weapons should have realistic felt recoil, and beaten zones that are oblong, or change in otherwise asymmetrical manners. The reason would be to motivate players to use the bipod, or use other supported firing positions. I also think that suppression needs to be re-worked. Is hitting a target the goal? YES! But if we miss close enough to the target they just experience a significant emotional event (something 6 days in Fallujah does amazingly) I was in a weapons company for 2 years where I spent plenty of time firing the M2 from both the tripod, and the turret of a humvee. I have fired the M240, M249, and Mk48 from all sorts of firing positions. I understand that I am a sample size of 1, but those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for reading my novel.

2:31 that must have scared the shit outta that guy 😂