Fetishizing Asian Women - The World of Suzie Wong (1960)
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- Correction: In the original novel Lomax is a painter not a novelist (it read "painter" in my video script - no idea why I said novelist).
This video explores the US-British film 'The World of Suzie Wong' (1960) as a way to understand how the fetishization of East and Southeast Asian women (ESEA) was imbedded within British and North American cultural history.
In the title, the word ‘Asian’ is used as a shorthand to refer specifically to ESEA women and their connections with the ‘oriental woman’ construct. However, there are similar avenues to take when assessing how the West created narratives for women from all over the Asian continent and beyond.
Yes, it's not an East Asian film, but it does however, help people like myself appreciate how certain ideas or biases from Hollywood and British cultural text can influence Western imagined ideas of ESEA people.
5 Weird Hong Kong Censorship Laws Video - • 5 Weird British Hong K...
Main Sources:
Invention, Inversion and Intervention: The Oriental Woman in The World of Suzie Wong, M. Butterfly, and The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert by Peter Kwan - heinonline.org...
Hong Kong and British Culture, 1945-97 by Mark Hampton - www.amazon.co....
Romance and the "yellow peril" by Gina Marchetti - www.amazon.co....
Howell, Phillip. Prostitution and Racialised Sexuality: The Regulation of Prostitution in
Britain and the British Empire before the Contagious Diseases Acts. Environment and
Planning D: Society and Space, 18(3), 321-339. 2000.
Woan, Sunny. White Sexual Imperialism: A Theory of Asian Feminist Jurisprudence, 14
Wash. & Lee J. Civ. Rts. & Soc. Just. 275. 2008.
This is the most thorough historical breakdown of this issue I’ve seen so far. I’m half Vietnamese and Chinese Malaysian. My father used to tell me that the British Empire treated Malaysia in a very similar way. Frequently making young girls 12 or 13 years old their mistresses.
That’s horrible, yet I’m not surprised. I read that in the 1860s the British administration had to ban teaching local women English in Malaysia because white men would find them “too tempting” when they were able to communicate effectively with them.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory didn’t know that. Remember where you read it?
Sure. It’s from ‘English and the Discourses of Colonialism’ By Alastair Pennycook page 97.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory thanks
Lol, like nasty old rich Chinese men didn’t have a bunch of underaged concubines. They had a lot more than the westerners… don’t single out westerners just because they were outsiders, locals were doing the same thing
I will admit that I was kinda of skeptical of your channel when I first stumbled with it cause you sounded very British, I'm glad you didn't just gloss over your own identity and pretend like it does not affect the way you view things. The fact that you tried to confront your own biases in this video is pretty great, so kudos to you. Your channel is awesome!
Thanks. I can definitely understand your scepticism. There are inherent problems when someone dedicates their attention to an area of the world that they're not from. It's a constant learning process and I need to keep my perspective in check.
Still love the movie. Mainly because it was one of the first Hollywood films that showed Hong Kong that I knew of. But this history of the British rule made me sick to hear. In Hong Kong we don’t get taught about this stuff. I know Brits and US soldiers had a bad reputation for abusing Hong Kong women, but this is gross.
I get a lot of Hong Kongers who tell me similar things. Which is surprising, considering a lot of my sources are from Hong Kong based researchers.
I love Nancy Kwan and her performance is wonderful. When I was younger I thought she was a confident and strong independent woman. Now I’m older unfortunately, she was designed to be saved by the white hero.
Yeah, it’s impossible to distinguish Suzie from the book and film’s colonial context. Which makes orientalist readings unavoidable.
I thought her performance was lacking. Such a lack of emotion after her child died.
@@NoirFan84 maybe the actress did put in the performance and work but those scenes were cut. Remember Willam Holden's character Robert is the main character and the hero of the story here.
Any story with a white main character is a white hero.
So I agree we should never have white main characters in stories.
Had the main character been asian the exploitation would have
Been ok.
@@milesromine9960 Was he white? Didn't notice he was white. I just said William Holden is the main character and is the hero of the story.
Very insightful, thanx. The World of Suzy World is still one of my fave movies. As someone who has lived in SE-Asia, mostly Thailand, since 1993, I've thankfully witnessed first-hand the development of women's rights and the descent of aboding Western masochism. If you haven't read it, I advise you get your hands on a copy of the novel Bangkok After Dark (1968).
I genuinely like the film a lot too. I think the performances are great and the chemistry between Kwan and Holden is intoxicating. I haven’t read Bangkok After Dark yet, I’ll definitely check it out though. Thanks for that.
Wow, this was very well done and researched. Much higher quality than what you usually find on UA-cam video essays.
As another white male studying Asian cultures I think it's very important for especially people like us to be aware of orientalist and fetishising depictions of Asian women and how it affects the perceptions of them. This isn't just a historical issue but ongoing one that's still easily visible both around East and Southeast Asia and within Western countries themselves.
Very well put. Agree completely. This history is just as relevant now.
I think a lot of people try to deny the orientalist factor by unintentionally taking it out of its political and historical context. Almost treating sexual fantasies like they exist within a vacuum.
My wife of 30 years grew up the 60s and 70s and the world of Suzie Wong. Her family had fled the Cultural Revolution and found sanctuary in HK. She hates Red China and Red Chinese to the very core of her being - and loves deeply all things British - especially how the men treat women, unlike the Chinese men she grew up with. As a teenager growing up in HK her only real trouble with men came from American servicemen on furlough from the Vietnam war. I found the HK Chinese (never knew any sex workers mind) as very reserved and even prudish. The Cantonese are basically a matriarchal society - and my wife's mother was the total boss of a large family. Interesting, but does really not fit my experience.
Based on my friends and family, I agree - East and Southeast Asian women (particularly Hong Kongers, from all generations, as that’s who I’m most closely associated) are nothing like the fantastical representations penned by white North American and European men. This reality is even more of a reason to challenge the inaccurate and abstract narrative of East and Southeast women via the Anglo-US and Euro gaze. Regarding sentiments towards the British, it depends who you speak with. Those who grew up in the 1950s and 60s I know despised the British Empire, especially those from Kowloon and the New Territories who suffered particularly at the hands of the colonial government and corrupt police. Most hated both the CCP and the Colonial government.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory Thankfully, my wife and her family are extremely pro British, and she grew up there in the 60s and 70s - and I visit family there regularly. Our son, and young family live there now.
@@HankD13 yeah yeah yeah we are all assholes.
I'm very much amazed of your video and every step by step breakdown on the Fetishization of Asian women. It's definitely a topic that should be address and that it is very harmful towards many Asian women. I cannot tell you the amount of times my female Asian friends that would explain to me there past experiences with a white male who had an Asian fetish and it's disturbing hearing it. And having the rise of Asian hatred especially the violence towards Asian women is just really hurtful. Especially like my younger sister who is 19 like what if some white male does just see her as a typical Oriental women and Fetishizes her for being Asian and it is just plain disgusting. Not saying all white males are like that but it is a very real issue that does happen more often than not.
Just the whole subject matter on asians is a very complex problem there are still many issues with asians not just with Fetishization of Asian women even thought I do find that one is a big problem. But other stuff like desexualization of Asian men, Yellow face, Asian Cultural appropriation and many more. But I'm glad that we as asians are finally voicing our problems after Many years of silence, we finally have Asian casts that are actual people with personality on flim instead or your typical Kung fu movie. We as asians still have a long way to go but we are making progress and it makes me proud as an Asian person myself. I do apologize for any spelling or sentence errors english wasn't my first language so I tried my best here.
You’re right, it’s a much bigger and more complex problem. The emasculation of East and Southeast Asian men is an incredibly important issue too. There’s an old colonial saying: “sexualise the women and emasculate the men”. The theory being, it allows the colonial men to adopt the position as patriarch. “Take the women and you’ll take the nation”.
I have had experiences with women who have a "fetish" for white men, grow up and stop whinging just because you're jealous. In Europe we are being told our women prefer blacks etc, why is it only whites who are ever blamed for anything? It is what it is, if Asian men don't like being seen as feminine they should lift some weights. For the record, I find Asian women the most attractive physically, and their characters mean I usually get on with them better than white women, I don't consider this a fetish but a preference, my girlfriend is Chinese and I'm in love with her and she's in love with me, does the fact that Asian women are a sexual and relationship preference undermine this in any way? No. You people just want to find anything to cry about.
And this is still ongoing...
You ever noticed most of the shows with an asian actor/actress have an asian woman as a love interest?
i am married to an asian woman for 12 years.....she was never a fetish......just a wonderful and beauriful woman......maybe my history is not up to snuff but havent asian women been considered second class citizens by their men in most asian countries for centuries?
Being attracted to - and caring about -
someone doesn’t mean you’re fetishising them. In this case, fetishising refers to when you’re attracted to a narrative about someone based on assumptions related to their ethnicity. Which inevitably dehumanises them. This video highlights assumptions that were based on European writers and travelogue specialists who created a narrative about east and southeast Asian women that has informed a fetishistic narrative about them. If you fell for you wife - and are still with her now - because of reasons that were not associated with these old narratives, then you’re not fetishising her.
The problem is Asian women also have white fever and hope that white knight will save them anyway it was this Stereotypes which lead to killing of Atlanta a few weeks ago with killer saying "THIS IS A TEMPTATION THAT I MUST ELIMINATE".
The whole white fever thing is mostly (though not solely) a byproduct of the oriental woman narrative - where it becomes so internalised that even those on the receiving end of it accept the fantasy.
We see this with other communities/classes too and how top-down narratives are accepted by certain people within them.
In the U.K., we have working class people who literally reject policies that favour them and support ones that benefit the economic elite. There is a narrative that working class people are the problem because they “are lazy and con the benefits system.” Despite this being a fantasy projected by the wealthy classes, it’s accepted by a worrying large portion of the working class.
I think it stresses how much of a responsibility people have who are in the top-end of that narrative - only they can properly dispel it. It needs to come from the top.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory I first experienced this internalise racism in Singapore( pretty much like HK ) where Singaporean Chinese women said "White men are superrior because they move out from home early and adventurous" which really make me angry to this day. Just like I said no one oppress us(Asian men) more than these self hate Asian women. I'm waiting for a day where Singaporean Chinese men date or married White women to avenge this humiliation but seeing many Asian men(especially Korean men) and White women (especially young German and Russian women ) couples on youtube these days it looks like the time of retribution is coming closer than ever.
@@ironheart5830 absolutely. I think that may have a lot to do with how the West (especially through colonialism) tried to emasculate Asian men. There’s an old Imperialist mind-set that panders to the idea that “if you emasculate the men, you inherit the role as patriarch for that civilisation” - which often results in local women seeing white men as superior.
It’s why figures like Bruce Lee were so important, as they challenged the narrative of Asian men being weak and submissive.
Unfortunately, these figures were not enough to destroy the narrative properly.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory I wish you make a video about the movie call crimson Kimono starring James Shigeta the Japanese American actor.
@@ironheart5830 that’s an amazing idea. A good way to show how Asian men were represented in Hollywood films. Thanks for that recommendation.
Omg I'm so glad I discovered this channel! Great analysys, I'm looking forward to starting watching the other videos! You're really good, I would go to conferences if you were the host ahah
Wow, thank you. I’m glad you found it useful 🙂.
Very well done, very well researched, and you speak truths that white society would like to gloss over in history (and the present)
Thank you. Yeah, I’ve already gotten a few passive-aggressive messages about this one. The denial is deeply routed.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory yeesh, but of course- the truth hurts lol
@@figgsboson I don't even think they watch the video to be honest. They respond to the video title alone.
Two thoughts in response to this wonderful essay:
1. I agree that it's important to interrogate and dismantle oppressive systems of power. Not because of political correctness or because you want marginalized people to like you, but rather because if we do not then we will never understand the world around us or have any legitimate emotional connections to others.
2. I want to see not only this film, but the gothic feminist answer film, made by a Chinese woman from Hong Kong: "My Name Ain't Suzie."
‘My Name Ain’t Suzie’ is a really interesting film. I was going to make a follow-up video to this about that too.
Good evening from Tokyo. An excellent review you delivered. Not surprised if the film and novel contained Euro-centric and colonial subtexts.
Thanks for your comments via Tokyo!!!
I spent over a month in Hong Kong in the 1960's And I spent most of my free evenings in bars in Kowloon. The depiction of Hong Kong bar life is very accurate. While Suzy Wong is one individual she in many way mirrors the real bar girls at that time.....I know because I knew several of them. Hong Kong was growing rapidly due to the influx of Chinese fleeing Communist China. Surviving for many of these people was difficult and jobs were very hard to find. Some choose working as bar girls ...some but not all were prostitutes. Some women did other jobs....One group painted the ships that were in Hong Kong harbor. They painted our ship from a san pan and used very long handle paint rollers to reach high spots. They were paid with food from the ships stores and got lunch by scraping leftover food from the plates of the crew. Our group was know as Mary Soo and Her Side Cleaners. Some of the bar girls were Eurasian not strictly Chinese...and were not accepted in polite White or Asian society. Nancy Kwan is Eurasian. Nancy Kwan has always defended he role in the movie and stated that it helped open the door for Asian actors in Hollywood. So if you watch the movie you are seeing an accurate picture of Hong Kong bar life in the 1960's even if Suzy Wong is much more complicated a role than any stereotype can match. I knew no bar girls that would consider it an honor to be beaten by their boyfriend....so I doubt there is much truth in that. All the bar girls I know in Kowloon were very sophisticated and more savvy than many white women I have know in the USA. There was a madam (Chinese woman) who used the Waltzing Matilda bar in Kowloon as her office. She had a business card that read "Hot Pants Molly Malone 24 hour service". One of her girls was named Lee and on a 1 to 10 scale for beauty was a 12. I also spent time in many bars in Japan and the situation was similar to Hong Kong except that the bar girls were much more likely to be prostitutes than the ones in Kowloon. Suzy Wong worked the bar in Wan Chia district as that was the drinking area for enlisted men while Kowloon was an officers playground. If you think Asian women were objectified in the movie you are correct to some extent....Now tell me white women are not objectified in the good old USA. I would love to see an comments from someone who shared my experience in Hong Kong....compare notes.
Thanks for that insight, it somewhat matches the descriptions by other people I have spoken with - and know - who spent long periods of time in Hong Kong during the 50s and 60s. Both Hongkongers and Westerners. Yes, few women feel it to be a badge of honour to be beaten by their love interests, which is why the movie/book is still a product of male fantasy, and not reality. As stated in the video, the analysis is not necessarily about how the female characters were objectified, but how they are a product of a Western fantasy - a blend of genuine observations and exoticism. It’s about understanding - through exploring the evolution of these East Asian female tropes via western literature - how this narrative of East and Southeast Asian characters developed. Of course women are objectified in other places, but we need to acknowledge that they do not emerge from a vacuum, each one has its own history and context.
This movie gave me "yellow fever" when I saw it in 1960 as a 14 year old.
Really trippy I saw this movie only once but it mystified me as a younger teen ..I love Asian beauty ❤️
as a hong konger born 80s, i know more about the culture of old hong kong, thanks very much❤🙏...."suzie wong", even this is a fantasy of the western world, this is an essential part of hong kong history❤
Oh yeah, it’s still a cultural staple and a huge part of how the image of Hong Kong was projected internationally. I still love the film too 👍🏻
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory and Nancy Kwan is really beautiful💖💖💖
@@vampirelfortunetelling and pretty much carries the film with her charisma.
The World of Suzie Wong is one of my favorite movies, and I love Nancy Kwan in it (and, in a few other movies as well). Oftentimes, when people talk about her, they speak of how Anna May Wong blazed the trail for Asian actresses, which I suppose she really did. However, it was another beautiful Asian who really captured my heart and imagination, namely the American-born Japanese actress Miiko Taka in Sayonara (1957). Her manner, at least as portrayed in that film, is still the ideal in my mind even to this day.
Started with the opera, Madam Butterfly.
That was definitely the initial benchmark.
Absolutely love this. Edward Said ? You are in the correct side of history my friend.
Thank you. It’s still such an important issue.
Well done sir.
Thank you 🙌🏻
One error in your summary of the novel: the male narrator is a painter, not a novelist, which is quite significant when considering the vivid imagery throughout the entire book (including the silhouette scene you mention): I once described the book to a friend as reminding me of a portfolio of old Magnum photojournalism.
I didn’t even realise I referred to him as a novelist 🤦🏼♂️ do you remember where in the video I slipped up? Yeah, you’re right, Lomax being a painter is an important part of the novel. The only change from the novel to the film that I thought I mentioned was him being American, rather than British. Thanks for pointing that out though.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory Around 2:07.
My mistake! 12:07
@@celzam12345 In the script that I wrote for this video, it did write “restless painter” - no idea how I muddled that one up when recording. Thanks for pointing it out, I’ll add a correction title.
Don't need a guide when all you need is a tin of sardines!
Really interesting analysis. I've never seen Suzie Wong, and now am curious to see it. Another trip to Hong Kong with William Holden as our American Everyman. He does look too old for the role in your clips which surprises me since this is only a few years since Love is a Many Splendored Thing. Checking, I see he was only 42 when this movie was released!
I like movies with Greek chorus approximations and Susie's friends look like they have been assigned that role, so I want to see it from that perspective, too.
Looks like a combination of location shooting with some of those lesser last-days-of-the-studio-era sets. I have liked many of Richard Quine's other movies, but I see he was brought in last minute on this one so maybe doesn't really have his influence.
So, I'm off to find it, but not before I congratulate you on your masterful roll out of this post! The two teases where you released it and pulled it back we're choreographed perfectly to keep us looking forward to it!! 😆🤣😂
😂😂😂 I’ll remember that roll out strategy for next time.
The film really isn’t that bad to be honest. Holden and Kwan pull off solid performances and there’s good chemistry.
Both the book and the film adaptation were genuinely trying to adopt a progressive approach. Some things are just too deeply rooted though.
The cinematography is pretty great too. You’re right, there is a mix of studio and location shoots.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory okay, now I've seen it. I don't question your theories about orientalism and fetishism in Western movies, but the bar girls and their white men here seem so cartoonish it's difficult for me to see this as a good example. Part of this might be the censorship (or self-censorship at this date) of the American film industry. They forced a kind of masking stylization upon themselves in portraying subjects like prostitution to such a degree that you almost wouldn't be blamed for not knowing what it is these gal pals do for a living. I usually can look through that kind of self censorship and see it as an echo of that socially repressive era, but when the subject is prostitution you have to think maybe they just shouldn't have even tried. The depiction of racism, although well intended, they're certainly giving an anti-racist message, is so hamhandedly set up in order to be knocked down that we really don't see it as a threatening thing - it's just the English club set being catty instead of the evil it really is.
In the end, the Asian women come off as noble comrades and it's the British who should be uncomfortable with their hackneyed depiction.
I didn't buy William Holden as an artist. This is an often used Hollywood trope, the artist who paints in his drawing room wearing a suit and tie and never splatters a drop of paint 🤣🤣 making art is a messy thing. I know coz I'm an artist. The idea of taking a year off to live the bohemian artist's life, but packing smoking jackets, cummerbunds and letters of introduction is so bad that it's comedy gold!
With all that said you'll be surprised that I enjoyed this movie! Nancy Kwan was so completely charming it would be impossible not to like it William Holden, even when miscast, is just a very good actor and their scenes together make the movie. A movie doesn't have to be unalloyed gold to be a pleasure. Will I watch this one 10 times? Nope. But I'm glad I saw it on a rainy Saturday afternoon in April 😆
@@Marcel_Audubon Oh yeah, but I’d argue that the “cartoonishness” of the sex workers is actually why it’s such a good example of 1960s orientalism. As the whole point of orientalism is that it’s a projected fantasy and often completely separate from reality.
The difference between ‘The World of Suzie Wong’ (both the book and the film) and older versions of orientalism - like Madame Butterfly - is that it pushes the white knight idea too. Along with some misguided - though well intended - progressive ideas that were developing during the 1960s. Which explains why the Chinese sex workers are depicted with a sense of nobility and most of the white characters as ignorant and indulgent.
Yet, Holden is the good guy, who offers salvation to the most fallen of the sex workers: Suzie - the one who is somewhat a compulsive liar, a show off and lives in her own deluded fantasy.
Suzie, unlike the other sex workers, is far less noble - hence, why the white knight focuses on her - as she is the one he can save. The ultimate fantasy in 50s and 60s Western literature.
It’s also why I made a point in the video to stress how it’s a more complicated example of the oriental woman. It’s genuinely trying to challenge the old “oriental woman” problems - but, when it comes to Hong Kong, the issues are far too deeply rooted.
Again, like I showed in the video - the salvation fantasy in the film and book, where Suzie is the most fallen of the sex workers and needs to be saved by the white knight - was common in pretty much everything being written about Hong Kong and it’s women at the time. So it’s almost impossible to distinguish it from that context.
I realise when you study the film as it’s own text, orientalist readings can be tricky to identify. That’s why I dedicated so much time to present the historical and cultural context to which the book and film were produced. As the “white saviour” and “fallen Asian women” dynamic were just too embedded within the British/US imagination of Hong Kong at the time for it not to be relevant.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory Agree. The fact the white knight character is attracted and provides salvation for the least noble of the prostitutes is where the orientalist projection really is. Unlike the other more noble and heavy-handed prostitutes, Suzie provides Lomax with an avenue to save her from herself. Which is obviously a key part of the imperialist mentality, where white people save the savages from themselves.
@@Hicksnbricks exactly - Which correlates with other text and art being produced about Hong Kong and Asian women at the time. It justifies the white man’s presence there, whilst at the same time, challenging the more low hanging fruit issues with racism.
I just watched it and i did resonate with Susie being an asian woman who was often fetishized by white men growing up. I really relate to her rather stubborn and snarky personality when dealing with white men mostly because of their almost racial power play mindset. Still though, this is awful portrayal of asian women and Hong Kong in general.
Thanks so much for sharing that. A lot of East/Southeast Asian women I’ve spoken with about the film seem to share your sentiments. I think Nancy Kwan was a naturally witty and charismatic actor, so she was able to incorporate a lot of snarky sharpness into the Suzie character. But you’re right, the way the film portrays Nancy and Hong Kong were definitely the product of myths and assumptions inherent to the Western gaze.
I am all for it. Back when I was a kid in the 60s, this movie made me want to move to HongKong! I had a crush on the lovely Nancy Kwan!
I've seen this movie countless times and every time I watch it again I find some new previous hidden understanding. I personally feel that overwhelmingly asian women are beautiful, gorgeous, very feminine, kind, intelligent and possess a quality of femininity that western women have lost long ago. Anyone can place whatever meaning ,subcontextual agendas or ideologies on any movie based on individual perceptions they want . I have enjoyed this movie many times. Even though Suzi is a wan-chai girl, I felt that if given an opportunity, she could have led a different life. I disagree with the opinion that asian women exist for the white man's pleasure. I personally have known a few white men who fell in love with, married ( in one case had 3 children) with asian women. I have always been very attracted to philipinas, japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese girls. That's my personal attraction..I do not see a beautiful sex slave that i can control...I see an exotic lovely human being who may find me attractive and together both of us will love and care for each other...just my opinion..
👍🏻
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I think fetishizing always happens whenever we do not understand a culture for what it is but what we perceive or fantasize it to be. And this "fetishizing" can only be reduced or eliminated when we get to really learn and understand other cultures for what they truly are.
Fantastic point 👍🏻
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory Good luck to them when they find out just how tough and resilient Asian women can be. They picked the wrong kind of women to fetishize. LOL
The musical, South Pacific.
Not sure what you are trying to prove here? We all know that there are cultural differnces reflected in this film that are STILL very evident in some parts of the world today! However, you attempt to frame the argument from a race / imperialist perspective with regard to this film, and I'm not sure that's actually the point?
From my perspective.. It's just a film about two people from completely different backgrounds that just happen to meet and fall in love, With that in mind, is it really any different from "Pretty Woman"?
The film is a product of it's time, if you choose to read imperialism into it i'm not sure that actually achieves anything other than possibly suggesting how the world might have been in the past, and we are all aware of our joint historical mistakes.
That said, Nice to get an alternative opinion on one of my favourite films, Suppose I never even considered the points you have raised here? I will have to think about it 🤔.
Thanks for your thoughts 👍
It’s a great film, I love it too. I don’t think the film is intentionally trying to fetishise ESEA women. All the video is attempting to point out is - like many Western productions - the film is reliant on certain assumptions that come from a fetishistic historical narrative about East and South East Asian women. Narratives that were constructed over long periods of time via Western writers and travelogue specialists visiting East Asian who designed an “oriental woman” narrative that was perpetuated. For example, sex workers in Hong Kong were so aware of these tropes about ESEA women in Western literature that they purposely played the part in order to secure Western clients. This obviously led to their clients going back to Europe or North America confirming these tropes to other people - which further fuelled these assumptions about ESEA women in Western culture.
The world of Suzie Wong - as great of a film as it is - inherited these perpetuated narratives that were designed by Western men and their fantasies over time. Of course this doesn’t take anything away from the well written and performed romance.
Being attracted to someone and fetishising them are different things. Fetishising is when you’re attracted to a narrative about their ethnicity - that is based on problematic power relations - which subsequently dehumanises the attraction.
Thanks for the questions though, I hope it doesn’t come across that I don’t like the film.
Really well done video essay with no biases. Thank you.
Thanks for watching🙏🏻
The thought of being forced to choose btw respectable job and lifestyle/ un-respectably poor Vs un-respectable job or lifestyle/ financially comfortable sounds like something pulled straight out of a dystopian novel.
😖 *shutters quietly*😖
I know, right!
The reverse is also true, but rarely discussed...as In, the portrayal of whites in Asian film.....I lived in Japan and other parts of Asia for 5 years, and whenever there was a 'white guy' in film/ TV, the stereotypes were just laughable and cringeworthy......so, it's never just one way, just saying 🙂
There’s an interesting paper by Sunny Woan that explores the history of the fetishisation of white men in east and south east Asia. It actually links - and is almost a byproduct of - the fetish narratives of East/Southeast Asian women. Fascinating stuff.
The paper is titled something like “White Sexual Imperialism”. I recommend you give it a read if you’re interested in “white guy” stereotypes in the East.
Japanese representation of white men was alternated significantly after the allied occupation too. Since then, there can be cartoonish stereotypes - and often cringy sexual “superiority” tropes.
Interesting piece - but certain things are over-played, especially the 'white male violence against Asian women' angle within the film, as such attitudes were widespread across most cultures at the time. i.e. in Russia and Ukraine there was a popular saying, 'If he beats you, he loves you' (this saying still persists today in the Russian Federation, which recently decriminalised Domestic Violence). And even in the West, songs such as 'He Hit Me (And If Felt Like A Kiss)' were issued as singles as late as 1962 (and sold many thousands of copies - although the record was eventually withdrawn after a minor outcry).
Yes, you’re right, the culture of associating physical violence with affection has long been part of a broader phenomenon. But, it’s important not to exclude such things from their localised context. A certain phenomenon can exist broadly, but its meaning and effects change when applied to a particular climate.
In this case, both Hong Kong and its women were seen within British and North American culture as sites of unbridled consumption - where almost everything was accessible and anything went. Violence against Asian women in the territory, along with the attitude that they were inferior to white women (where acts could be inflicted upon them that were out of bounds with white women) was so normalised, that it adds new meaning to broader associations between violence and affection.
This also applied to how white prostitutes were historically treated differently to Chinese ones (I address this in my 5 Hong Kong Censorship laws video). This resulted in both neglect and violence against Chinese sex workers being typical practises, as they were considered to be the subservient standard of woman.
None of the white women in either the book nor the film express violence as an appropriate signifier for affection - it’s only the Chinese prostitutes. Hence, why the “white knight” construct becomes important. The white women are depicted as being too developed and socially enlightened to need saving. The fact we don’t even see white prostitutes emphasises this point - as depicting white sex workers in Hong Kong also adopting the “if he hits me he cares” attitude, would have challenged this dichotomy.
But obviously, focusing on the white sex workers in Hong Kong would have compromised the oriental woman fantasy that was intrinsic to these stories of the time.
In addition, Hong Kong was notorious for Western men acting out taboo desires like paedophilia and abuse, which made the idea of white men being violent a normal expectation. An expectation fundamental to the oriental woman construct - so fundamental in fact - that Chinese sex workers were aware of it and even played to the role as they knew it got them customers. The writer, Richard Mason, was well aware of this and it’s no surprise it found its way into the story.
Power dynamic - as always - make the difference. It’s why I tried to spend time framing the historical context before dissecting the film, as broader trends have new meaning within the context of the Western imagination of Hong Kong.
Still, a good point though and thanks for highlighting it. These notions of abuse and endearment are complicated. If I had time to make a longer video, I’d have loved to expand on it.
There's a reason why many western men in Philippines and Thailand say they NEVER want to go back to their own country. Myself included. Once you experience why you will understand and see the light. America is the most antisocial country in the world for dating. I swear.
This is a bit like a lecture in Film & History 101 or something.. felt like back in Uni...only more interesting! Excellent research, thanks for this amazing work!
Thank you! Glad it was helpful!
She is a such a beautiful actress 💯
Yeah it's not possible that people could just be attracted to each other because they find each other...attractive. So I suppose you think people should only stay with "their own kind"? How very progressive of you.
Finding people attractive (or even having a preference) is very different to having a fetish. The video is a historical breakdown of the collective fetish within the context of Hong Kong - it’s nothing to do with individuals and their preferences.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory You're reducing it to a fetish, as a way of reinforcing an ideological position that white people can't see past race, even in attraction....negating someone's humanity to focus on surface traits. To me, that's biased and linked to the current reductive thinking that does no one any good. It just foments resentment and pushes an oppressed/oppressor mindset.
@@yournamehere6002 Never is white people not being able to see past race mentioned or even suggested in the video. The video is a historical survey of how the specific fetish was developed. Namely, how it evolved and circulated within (and through) British literature and travelogues - and how the narratives that such writings developed went on to contribute to specific tropes that filtered into films like Suzie Wong. Albeit, the Suzie Wong example being a more complex and progressive - and interesting - case study.
The video directly frames the fetish as an imagined idea or narrative of what they expect an East/ Southeast Asian woman to be - based on assumptions constructed through literature and film. I even referenced Peter Kwan’s specific definition of the ‘Oriental Woman construction’ - to which fetishisation narratives are often historically based.
With such a specific definition of the fetish - and it’s dependency on the fetish’s routes in literature and travelogues - I can’t see how anyone can frame this video as appealing to such a broad and abstract claim like “any white person’s attraction to east or southeast Asian women is always based on a fetish because they can’t see past race”.
If you find someone attractive because they are attractive to you, then that is not a fetish - if the attraction is based on assumptions that are informed by racist tropes - then it’s fetishistic.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory So there's no underlying agenda in this video of bringing up past racism and how it informs today's attitudes toward Asian women? If you say so.
@@yournamehere6002 I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to comment - this is a huge topic and warrants not only meaningful conversations, but as many diverse perspectives as possible. Yet, I do think you're overreaching regarding accusations of an agenda here. Of course I'm highlighting how racist tropes that developed through generations of literature and media inform certain modern perspectives, - in this case - fetishes towards East and Southeast Asian women ... Why? Because the evidence is overwhelming. Does it mean that any white person who is attracted to an ESEA woman is doing so because of these racists tropes/assumptions? No! Does it mean fetishes that reduce ESEA women to narratives that are informed by tropes/assumptions with deep historical routes are racist? Yes!
awesome
i need more info about the stage play 1960 tour i am theater istrory student
What type of info do you need?
Wan Chai is bloody awesome! Best years of my life was when i lived there. 😁
Beautiful original
One day you might be able to do it with a lady.
I doubt it will happen though; for a number of reasons.
Funny you mention it, I’m working on a video addressing exactly that now. There’s an interesting history behind it also.
Una película que me encantó
Nah, "The World of Suzie Wong" is just a light-hearted entertainment of its own innocent era, featuring a very likeable feisty local lass who meets an affable Western man in unlikely circumstances, and they click. You know, a cigar is always just a cigar (if you get my drift) unless you try really hard to hallucinate and conjure up clever but utterly nonsensical ideas uncoupled from prosaic reality. Thanks anyway for your efforts. Cheers!!
I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive. A film can be an enjoyable and light-hearted depiction of a feisty local woman meeting an affable Western man under interesting circumstances - and also reflect interesting assumptions Western writers and artists had about East Asian women at the time.
There’s nothing wrong with enjoying a film and simultaneously acknowledging that it reflected the problematic dynamics of its time.
Also, the correct Freud quote is: “Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar” - not “a cigar is always a cigar”.
I think if I were arguing that the film is intended to fetishise East Asian women, or one of its objectives is to do so - then yeah, I think you’d have grounds to call a “cigar is just a cigar”. But that’s not what is being argued here - I actually really love the film. The point of the video is to show how the original book and film was produced during a period in Hong Kong history where English language culture/art presented East Asian female characters within certain paradigms that reflected Western assumptions of the day.
It doesn’t change the meaning of the film or how valid the love story is in it.
But either way, thanks for leaving such a passionate comment. It’s a lovely film.
Interesting analysis but not so much has changed. Plenty of western men still find easy sexual fun in Asia and I can think of at least three Asian sex workers, friends of friends, who have married white western men within the last decade. Yes, the film is a Hollywood romance with all its prejudices but not so far removed from reality.
The film was undeniably a product of the fantasies and fetishised narratives about East and SE Asian women that were developing in western literature for decades. And yes, these narratives have filtered into modern thinking. It’s still a very difficult subject for Western men to grapple with - including myself, for years.
Lots of Eastern men find easy sexual fun in Asia too, just as lots of Western men (and women) find easy sexual fun in the West.
Good video, I just finished this film over the weekend and enjoyed this reading of it. Quite the fetishistic piece of media for buttoned up 1960 america. Half the time you can hear the camera man hooting and hollering when they're panning around Nancy Kwan.
Thank you and couldn’t agree more.
Hog wash. It’s a fucking story.
As humans, stories are one of our oldest modes of communicating values and reflecting ideas/assumptions related to the time they were conceived.
Let’s face it, we men fetishize all women. And we each have our type. Some of us like blondes like Marilyn Monroe. Others of us like Asian women with their big dark brown eyes and luxurious jet black hair.
My experience is that Asian women tend to be more polite and feminine and cute. As well, Asian women tend to want to “save face” so that they don’t argue in public. But they will argue in private.
The fetishisation of people certainly occurs across the board, undeniably. But each one has its own history and developmental context worthy of investigation.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistory It is not only men but women fetishize other women as is the case with white women wanting to look like model Betty Page from the 1950’s.
@@6catalina0 Absolutely. Fetishised narratives and their complex and diverse histories/context are fascinating.
Great film! Tops!
It’s a classic.
I appreciate that somebody is trying to put out quality content but some aspects in this video are really ridicolous (for me, 25 years married to asian woman,lived in Europe as well as Asia) and often stating the blaring obvious just to blame all on colonialism.
As if the white men came to Asia and made a gentlemans club out of it. As if the Asian men needed any help there. The sexualization of women in Asia by Asians was and is common practice when it comes to power and money (not mentioning Epstein and Weinstein). To blame this on colonialism commited by only white men (thats how the narrative sounded to me) is completely inaccurate. Look at St. Pauli (Hamburg, Germany) in the 60s. That was also a gentlemens playground where sailors from all over the world sexualized and used German women.
And why is it worth mentioning that "European female sexuality was never depicted in HK context"? It is blatant obvious why. That were the 60s. European women mostly traveled there as wifes and did not roam the streets trying to meet Asian men and living out their sexuality. So why make a movie about it?
As for the last 30 years when I was living partly in South East Asia. The sexualization of women continues and it has more to do with sexual fantasies, power and money than with a fetish of white men.
Hey, thanks for your thoughtful comment and congratulations on your 25 years of marriage 🍻🥂
The intention of the video is not to blame the attraction to East Asian women on colonialism but rather to highlight how Western productions, like this one, rely on assumptions rooted in a fetishistic historical narrative about East and South East Asian women. This narrative, constructed over decades by Western writers and travelogue specialists, perpetuated certain tropes relating to the fictional “oriental woman” narrative. For example, sex workers in Hong Kong were so aware of these tropes about ESEA women in Western literature that they purposely played the part in order to secure Western clients. This obviously led to their clients going back to Europe or North America confirming these tropes to be true to other people - which further fuelled these assumptions about ESEA women in Western culture. The historical records show the development of a specific strand of fetishisation rooted in European discourses.
Secondly, there were several attempts by local Hong Kong productions to depict white women in ways the colonial government felt were “sexualised” - from the Minxin Film Company in the 1920s being blocked two films where white women were deemed by the British colonial censorship board as “discrediting our womenfolk with the Chinese”. To numerous HK films being censored for similar reasons from the 40s to 50s. It got to a point where HK filmmakers knew to not even bother trying until the late-70s and 1980s. So you’re wrong to claim that there were no attempts to sexualise white women in HK - especially considering there were plenty of sex workers in HK at the time who were European. The Stanley brothel scene - though underhanded- was famously occupied by white sex workers at the time, even white female pimps running them.
Yet, there were cheeky HK productions sexualising Chinese women from the late-50s and up - even sparking a sex comedy boom in the late-60s. But as the colonial government didn’t mind Chinese women being sexualised, no censorship occurred. Hence, the erasure of white sexualisation.
Don’t get me wrong, your perspective, based on personal experience especially, raises valid points about the broader issue of sexualisation in Asia. However, the video's focus is on a specific aspect-examining the influence of historical narratives on the portrayal of East Asian women in Western media, rather than a comprehensive analysis of all aspects of sexualization in Asia. Which would be a different type of video.
@@EastAsianCinemaHistorywell put. I think the point of the video is clear. So many white men try to distort focusing on the specific euro creation of the “Chinese woman” fantasy by saturating it with broader issues. It’s like when people try to deflect the transatlantic slavery topic by bringing up other forms of slavery.
@@LiaChan-zu5pe Sounds like self-victimizing and projection to me. Hope you heal someday.
@@candide1065 Thank you, us Asian women need more men and white people to dictate our experiences to us.
@@LiaChan-zu5pe Now that does not only sound like self-victimization but self-righteous whining. Besides, assuming my skin color and implying that I'm white and/or just because I hit a nerve and you hate white men is r*cist and s*xist equally. Again, hope you heal from your imaginary pain (and your r*cism and s*xism).
la-bert, you like Wan chai girl?
Cry cry and cry.