*Honourable Mentions* There are so many! Among the Men of Númenor there are some great kings and lords that I didn't have time to mention. Elendil, father of Isildur, is an obvious one, along with Isildur's brother Anárion, and his grandfather Amandil. All of these guys were crucial in bringing about Sauron's defeat at the end of the War of the Last Alliance. I could also have included Tar-Palantir, the twenty-fourth King of Númenor who tried to return his nation to a more positive mindset, and redeem them from the Shadow that had fallen. And there's also Tar-Minyatur, the first King of Númenor, and the twin brother of Elrond. Also: Durin III (Lord of Khazad-dum and friend of Celebrimbor), Fimbrethil (the ent-wife of Treebeard), and, or course, Galadriel.
I think you made the right calls, Durin 3/4 were the only ones who I thought you *might* mention but once you got passed Sauron I was like I know where this is going lol. Hey question, since elves hate the felling of trees so much, was Cierdans shipbuilding ever frowned upon by other elvish kingdoms? I mean he seems to only build to help but with the previous mention of a tree loving numenorian, I was like hmmm.
@@Cerbyo What the hell are you talking about? Are you presuming that each and every character and person, whether in fiction or real life, isn’t perfect and skilled in absolutely every possible area from birth, and doesn’t need to learn valuable life lessons and skills through experience and hardship??’
Thanks for clearing Isildur's name. I was never quite sure what to make of him. I feel that if people had known that Sauron himself was incapable of destroying the One Ring, they would have been a little more understanding. Awesome video!
Damn right! Isildur has been so misunderstood for such a long time. I was even guilty of it myself. He was an incredible man and his time with the Ring doesn't diminish that in the slightest. The fact that he planned to willingly give it away after having it for TWO YEARS is insane. No one else that we see in the story is capable of that. Frodo wouldn't have been able and he had it (actively) for less time. It wasn't weakness that flowed through his veins, it was strength.
Don’t tear down Frodo, though. Isildur never even considered destroying the Ring. Frodo marched across Middle-earth for 6 whole months fully intent on destroying it, and yet he didn’t break until the last possible moment.
Is anyone else secretly craving details about the secret lore of ring-crafting? Like, how cool would it have been to hear (completely fictional) technical details about how to make a magic ring? The special woods required to heat the forge; the length of time to allow for heating the ingots; the particular mix of metals; the magic runes that must be inscribed on the ingots before they're melted; the mixture of clays to make the crucible; the spells that must be recited while casting. It would be so cool to have the recipe! What if a Fourth Age character chanced upon an ancient manuscript recorded by Celebrimbor describing how to craft a magic ring, and spends years trying to find a specific tree whose ash is needed to carburise the alloy, but it has gone extinct.
That s what movies are for! To show, real life detail. But the writers have to be at level and not introduce discrepancies; like adding natural laws to a new Universe future scientists can make full sense of. Tolkien drops exactly what s necessary to link it all together coherently, that s _economy of means_. DJB/djb
Would be fun to know what went into it though. I know not technically canon but the shadow of Mordor and war could have gone into it a bit especially war since a ring of power is made with celebrimbor’s character being involved
I had put Isildur on the same level as Boromir, in that they weren't bad guys, they just had the unlucky fortune to be tested by the ring (and failed.) Thank you for the more in depth look at Isildur, because his life before meeting the ring is rarely ever talked about, and he deserves his great deeds to be known. I really hope they address this in the Amazon show.
Isuldur probably didn't fully appreciate the power or significance of the One Ring at the end of the 2nd Age. However, Tolkein's later writings say that Isuldur was bringing the Ring to Elrond, to seek his counsel, when he was killed at the Disaster at the Gladden Fields.
The Amazon show has nothing to do with Tolkien. They're just making different characters up and even changing the story and characters. About 90% of it will be made up by Amazon even tho Tolkien wrote perfect stories. They're literally destroying everything he wrote
@@feryea3689 “The Amazon show has nothing to do with Tolkien” > “They’re literally destroying everything he wrote” Which is it? Is the show completely disconnected from his writings? Or is it ruining what he wrote?
I think Aldarion (and the Numenoreans as a whole) perfectly characterize the inherent curiosity we all have. The Valar gave them Numenor - a land of plenty that was basically as close to living in Valinor that Men would ever get to experience. But Men (humans) are not content to stay in one place forever, for life is too short. Middle-earth in the Second Age was not the settled place we think of in Lord of the Rings, outside of places like Lindon, Khazad-Dum, parts of Eregion, later places like Lothlorien, and MUCH later places like Gondor. During the Second Age, Middle-earth would have seemed wild, untamed, and full of curiosities and possibilities to someone like Aldarion.
so true on Isildur! i remember hearing the narration by “Galadriel” in the beginning of the movie and was thinking “wtf! this is totally unfair to isildur…and the race of Men”
I think that was necessary for the forced peej conflict of "elrond doesn't want aragorn and arwen to be a thing" to kinda work since isildur failing like he did in the movie explains elronds doubt in men. Not that I agree with that decision of course.
To be fair it turns out the Galadriel turned up at Numenor after spending weeks or months (?) at sea wanting help and support defeating Sauron. Yet she was thrown in jail next to Halbrand and more or less no one believed her. I'd want the last word on Men as well...
Awesome!!! loved Cirdan, interesting that he and Elrond urged Isildur to cast or destroy the ring. Loved what you said about Isildur, agreed a truly great hero among men. I think that for me was the biggest disapointment with Jackson was the way he destroys or lessens all the major characters. Like making out that Aaragon was unsure about his path, he did it to all of them, i think to make it more believable, but what makes them awesome, is at the essence of Tolkein's writings... Stay Groovy 💕
I'm still annoyed over the hatchet job PJ did to Denethor. He couldn't emphasize the tragedy of a noble man brought low by despair. They had to make him an incompetent buffoon.
Your idea about the Entwives as slaves is interesting. I'd often wondered at how Sauron managed to feed his huge forces. I know it says in the books that the south of Mordor was used for agriculture and there was trade of sort with the South and East, but I can't see orcs and their ilk being any use at all for farming and even enslaved Men would struggle to make green things grow in the required abundance in a land that was so steeped in evil. And imports from Rhun and Harad would only work for non-perishable goods. But if Sauron had Entwives in his thrall, they had the power to make crops grow under almost any conditions. The Ents were the obvious inspiration for the Nym and Ogier in the (unbastardised) Wheel of Time. So perhaps there was some hope for Treebeard after all, and that is an encouraging thought.
This reminds me of Saruman's orcs getting fed up with 'maggoty bread' and wanting some meat - and eating each other. They seemed to be able to manage to march/run a long time without needing much food. If Saruman and Sauron were both experts at engineering/breeding orcs maybe they also bred animals for them to eat that didn't need to eat much or were scavengers?! Imagine they had dinosaur like creatures like the winged ones the Nazgul could ride - there's a lot of meat on some of those...! And Oliphaunts were much bigger than Elephants.
Great choices Mellon Dave. The second age has fascinated me as well Dave. The transition age. First age was the pinnacle of elves and introduction of men. Second age was the rise of men and slow decline of elves. Third age was the departing of the elves and the dominion of men
Elrond isn't just a half-elf, he is just four generations from the queen of doriath Melian Gwendolyn the Maia, and king Thingol who was of the first Eldar, eldest of the children of Ilúvatar,
"But this is straight up slander!" Ha! As always, a wonderfully researched and wholly groovy video. I have the best time with this content; it is so appreciated during this crazy time.
You should make a series of videos called „In defense of XY“ and bring justice to many characters, who were wrongfully portrated in the movies „worse“ than how Tolkien wrote them in the books, like you did here so wonderfully with Isildur and with Frodo in one of your other videos... There are so many more who deserve the truth to be spoken loudly - Denethor, Theoden, both Faramir and Boromir, Bard and Thranduil from Hobbit movies, etc. They deserve justice and with your knowledge and interpretation it will be amazing!
Glad you stood up for Isildur. He did everything right in life except fall at the last hurdle, taking the ring in the moment of victory. Might Elendil, or all other men, not have done the same if he survived? Also 37:20 Sauron may well have burned the gardens of the Entwives. Maybe they were all killed, not just lost, as Treebeard said. However, Tolkien throws us a pretty substantial bone. In the chapter The Shadow of the Past, Sam states that his cousin Hal clearly saw a walking elm tree up on the North moors where “there aren’t any trees”. Maybe he saw an isolated Ent. Maybe it was an Entwife.
Wonderful compilation of characters. And kudos to you for giving a “point of view” synopsis on each. When I see the lore explained in this manner rich in Tolkien’s characters - it puzzles me why Amazon takes the route to fill - nay, HIGHLIGHT! - its TV show with so many Amazon-created characters! 5 seasons, about 50hours of screen time, why spend significant chunks of time on Amazon-created characters when there are THESE Tolkien characters to depict?
Another awesome video contribution to promote our deeper understanding of Middle-earth. I am always glad I have taken the time to watch, listen and learn! 👍
I like to thank you for your assessment on Isildur. It was spot on. I will be showing this to my friends who love the story but haven’t read the books.
33:44 Sauron was specialized in fighting and was a great warrior. Tolkien stated that Sauron was already very weakened both in body strength and spirit after Akhallabeth. Despite his weakened state he broke the siege of Barad-dur, drove the whole army of the Last Alliance 30 miles back to the slopes of Mount Doom and defeated the 2 High kings with his bare hands singlehandedly! "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster and *diminished* (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). *He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation,* and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.” [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter 211 to Rhona Beare)] "Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles, before they should take root. Orodruin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom. *But Sauron struck too soon, before his own power was rebuilt,* whereas the power of Gil-galad had increased in his absence." [Appendix A. (I) The Numenorean kings (i) Númenor, Return of the King]
@@jmdomaniii I don't believe it's ever stated that he is specialized in fighting. His specialty is crafting. But he is immensely powerful, even weakened. As implied by the passages noted above.
Rainbow Dave videos are like surprise Christmas presents during the year! You made me remember how much better the book is than the films, and why I used to read it every year ( before I had children)… I really long to read it again😊 thanks!
Thanks once more Dave, for an excellent presentation of some of the most important characters of the Second Age. I'm tempted to comment on a number of them but I'll contain myself for simply providing absolute support of your assessment of the character of Isildur. I think his actions by a great order of magnitude, outweigh his understandably naive considerations for just what that hoop of golden metal was capable of. I too felt dismay at the presentation of Isildur provided by PJ in the films. I do think I understand why he did it but it's unfortunate that it inaccurately portrays Isildur as some sort of greedy sap that would learn too late the folly of his decision. I believe the rationale for PJ doing so, was due to (sadly) audience expectations. For some inexplicable reason, we humans seem to always desire a "fall guy" to shift blame on to, when things go tragically wrong. Doesn't seem to matter that any other person in such a situation would undoubtedly have taken the same course of action. We seem to always seek someone to point a finger at and say, "well if it wasn't for him/her, then..." This isn't the only time in the grand Tolkien mythos brought to film we see this; as you accurately identified wrt Radagast, for example in another vid and even Elrond was given short shrift a few times in the films. Again, I can only suppose but I do believe that these developments were again, for the benefit of an unknowing general audience's perceptions, whom more often than not, see most of the world in black and white, good or evil. Fortunately, (as I also believe PJ was aware) true fans of the books know the "truth" of whom these characters truly were. I at least, hope so! :) Oh, just as an aside, one true creep that could have made your list, is one I truly despise, Ar-Pharazon (he doesn't deserve the name Tar-Calion, hrumph!). Regardless, the guy played a HUGE role in the Second Age so though a villain (like his sneaky buddy) is a contender. Thanks so very much, once again!
I strongly agree! I wish everybody who had the misfortune to watch Rings of Power sees this video! I only watched reviews of the show, which I found appalling. Your channel is fantastic!
Great list! I agree with the treatment of Isildur in the movies. I’m glad he made the list. Thanks for another enjoyable and insightful video Rainbow Dave!
Awesome list and the information in it. I especially appreciated the information about Isildur. I also deplore how he was portrayed in the movie, but I guess the truth was too involved to shortly sum up, so I understand why they made that choice. But the information about how no one would be able to destroy the ring was new to me so thanks!
So glad you mentioned Oropher and Thranduil! But I think it would help to mention that Oropher, as one of the few high-born Sindar elves confirmed to be alive by the end of the second age, would be most likely to know the exact details of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, the ship burning at Losgar and subsequent deaths during the crossing of the Helcaraxe - putting aside the two Kinslayings of the Sindar themselves by Noldor + the kinda racist implications of dark vs light elves - and, most importantly, the Doom of Mandos. If, as is very likely, Oropher knew about the Doom, he'd know that the Noldor would screw things up EVEN - often, especially - while trying to do good. Since he, unlike Celeborn, wasn't married to a Noldor, it makes perfect sense that he'd want to stay as far away from the Noldor as possible.
Hello Dave! Thanks for this video, I basically binge watching tou entire channel this week (lol) and make me very happy to see a new one uploaded! Until the next one!
I interpreted Isildur's choice to claim the One Ring was a bit more altruistic than people gave him credit. Had he destroyed the One Ring, the other Rings of Power would no longer be capable of preserving their Elven Kingdoms. By claiming it, the Elves were allowed to continue to flourish and thrive as the Third Age began. They owed their added time in Middle-Earth to Isildur.
Legend suggests that Celeborn did not actually fight in the War of the Last Alliance. He missed it because he had a dental appointment. It is an established fact that Galadriel only dated guys with perfect teeth.
There seems to be a painting by someone or other, of nearly every character in the Legendarium...it's as though the world is nearly ready for a graphic novel. 🙂
That one image you use of Celebrimbor examining a ring was used for the cover of Treasures of Middle Earth by Iron Crown Enterprises when they had the license for a role-playing game based on Middle Earth. As for finding a written document describing how to make a Ring of Power, something like that would not be written down.
Another great video! As a Tolkien newbie, it would be interesting to see a video about the meaning behind different symbols and colors worn by all the characters. Like the changing tree symbols used by men, and the different types of clothes and armor worn by elves.
When it says that nobody was able to injure the ring, Gandalf threw it into the fire at Frodo’s house. Even if he suspected it was the one ring, nobody throws anything into the fire without expecting it to be damaged or destroyed. Thank you for a very illuminating video!
What about Ar-Pharazon? He's corrupted yes but don't you think his decisions created so much of what happens in the second and third age? He seems to me to be one of the most pivotal characters in all of Tolkens writings and yes extremely flawed.
I know that he got in over his head with the rings of power, but I just love Celebrimbor. As a crafter myself, I understand the lure of the ability to learn new techniques in order to make marvelous things.
Hello Dave, firstly I want to thank you for all these amazing videos. I also have a question; will you do a series focused on the Second Age, like you did with Feanor and the Silmaris and Wars of Beleriand etc. ?
You forgot stg about Cirdan that makes him in the top few : his beard. He's the only 100% official bearded Elf that we know... yet proving there can be others
Gil Galad is the best. He's the least elf like elf in my opinion. In my understanding family and bloodlines are the most significant thing to an elf. The goal is to do something great to enhance the prestige of your family. But Gil Galad, next to gandalf, is the big picture guy. The survival of elves as a whole, not just noldor is his driving force. Gil Galad had no problem reaching out to men and establishing friendships and alliances. And Gil Galad is the kind of guy you want to be friends with. Loyalty duty and sacrifice are his values over all. He's loving and kind but is always ready to put the good of the whole above his own and whether anyone knows it or not is inconsequential
Question: When elves dies they stay in a spirit form for 1000 years and are then reborn. By the time of the Hobbit shouldn't some of these more famous and powerful elves of the first age haven been present again?
There is a name that belongs on this list, and I am astonished to be the first to give this name as he was possibly the mightiest of the kings of Numenor, and certainly the most daring. I speak of a mortal king that bested Sauron without combat, invaded Valinor itself, and wrought a greater cataclysm that Morgoth at the height of his power or the destruction of the War of Wrath. I speak of Ar-Pharazon the Golden. Without him, Sauron might never have been conquered or the nation of Numenor fallen.
After his death, Celebrimbor's body being used as a banner by Sauron has the feel of a crucifix. As he didn't return to Middle Earth as Glorfindel and Gandalf did, he isn't a Christ figure. However, he did sacrifice himself so that Gil-Galad and Galadriel, keepers of the elven rings, would be safe.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Cirdan is so old by the end of the Second Age that he is (to my knowledge) the only elf, alive or dead, to have ever born a beard.
I'm almost finished reading the Silmarillion. I didn't read anything about Oropher. What book do I read for that and some others that weren't in the Silmarillion? I've read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. I love your videos and they got me to start reading the Silmarillion since I read the other books decades ago.
Almost everything about him comes from the Unfinished Tales. There's a long section about the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, and within that section are the writings on Oropher.
@@tolkienuntangled Thank you. My sister thought she had a copy of The Unfinished Tales. I think our library only has a few books in the legendarium. However, I believe it has The Unfinished Tales.
Yeees! 45:27 thank u for putting respect on Isildur’s name. I always say, along with Faramir and Denathor, his character was crapped on in the trilogy. I don’t hear anyone really bring that up.
Idk what the fu** you say at the beginning but i love it. Love the vibe man, keep it up bro, setting yourself apart from all the other ones doing same thing.
I am actually really shocked that Ar-Pharazôn the Golden wasn't on the top ten of 2nd Age Characters. The Last King of Númenor. This is a character that really could make an argument is an all time top ten Middle Earth Character. Forces his cousin Tar-Míriel the Queen of Númenor into marriage. Finds out that Sauron claims the title King of Men and masses together the largest single army ever. This army is probably larger than The Last Alliance Army which was between 110,000-140,000 strong. So your looking at what 200,000-250,000 Númenóreans at least every man able to wield a sword. He has to have a force large enough where open warfare isn't even an option. Forcing Sauron to be humble for a while and allow himself to be captured. Ar-Pharazôn burns the white tree and leads his people into worshipping Morgoth. Than even goes to the Undying Lands and breaks the World. In the process Númenor is destroyed by a giant Tsunami wave sent by the Valar.
So....at 21:30 or thereabouts, we see that the Blue Wizards are using holographic A.I.s to guide them? Can *anything* be cooler than a holographic elven personal-assistant? (let's not get into 'fully interactive virtual tactile combat elven A.I.s - that way lies a blissful madness). What's it's name, Caladnette? Calmavende?
These ships of the faithful Numenorians muct have been huge, with thousands of people on each ship, it they are to build two nations! Yes, there were Numenorian colonies in Middle Earth, but some of those were the King's Men. I don't have the facts at my fingertips, but I beleive I read/heard that the faithful were strong in the north, the king's men in the south. Still, I don't think the nine ships of the faithful were actually single ships - I rather see them as fleets. Thestrength of the Numenorians in Gondor and Arnor just doesn't fit on just nine ships.
Where were the Nazúl during the war of the Last Alliance? Were they still slowly becoming wraiths, and living as men, and so avoiding the wrath of the Last Alliance?
Hi love the channel I'm wondering if you could do an explanation on why elves can just switch spieces at will are there any physical changes and why or why not?
This is a good question, but not all elves can choose a mortal life. It's only available to Elrond, his brother, and his children. Legolas, for example, would not be able to choose a mortal life. The reason that the children of Elrond can make this choice, is because they're descended from half-elves. The parents of Elrond and his brother were Eärendil (who was half elf, half man) and Elwing (who's the daughter of a half elf half man). So the descendents of Elwing and Eärendil could choose to be either mortal or immortal. But no one else can.
No Durin? Without him, Elrond wouldn't have survived the attack on Eregion. No friendship with Celebrimbor, either. And no Moria. Really missed out on this one.
For me, watching the movies, I always saw Isildur as a tragic character, I never really viewed him as villain or as truly corrupted any more than I really saw Frodo or Boromir that way, corruption is what the ring does
So sad that none of those characters would be in the show, at least not true to their real character. I love the second age. ❤️ Especially because it shows that even elves can be tricked by evil. 😅 Isildur is like Boromir. Not a bad man at all, but the he didn't stand the ring. The heart of men are easily corrupted.
*Honourable Mentions*
There are so many!
Among the Men of Númenor there are some great kings and lords that I didn't have time to mention. Elendil, father of Isildur, is an obvious one, along with Isildur's brother Anárion, and his grandfather Amandil. All of these guys were crucial in bringing about Sauron's defeat at the end of the War of the Last Alliance. I could also have included Tar-Palantir, the twenty-fourth King of Númenor who tried to return his nation to a more positive mindset, and redeem them from the Shadow that had fallen. And there's also Tar-Minyatur, the first King of Númenor, and the twin brother of Elrond.
Also: Durin III (Lord of Khazad-dum and friend of Celebrimbor), Fimbrethil (the ent-wife of Treebeard), and, or course, Galadriel.
I think you made the right calls, Durin 3/4 were the only ones who I thought you *might* mention but once you got passed Sauron I was like I know where this is going lol. Hey question, since elves hate the felling of trees so much, was Cierdans shipbuilding ever frowned upon by other elvish kingdoms? I mean he seems to only build to help but with the previous mention of a tree loving numenorian, I was like hmmm.
Isildur is indeed a hero, and as any scholar of Classical Greek Literature will tell you, tragedy is part and parcel of the Heroic archetype.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life.”
― Jean-Luc Picard
Great, now tell that to the woke community which dictates how all our modern media is created.
@@Cerbyo What the hell are you talking about? Are you presuming that each and every character and person, whether in fiction or real life, isn’t perfect and skilled in absolutely every possible area from birth, and doesn’t need to learn valuable life lessons and skills through experience and hardship??’
@@Cerbyo 😏😉😔
A tragic hero indeed.
Thanks for clearing Isildur's name. I was never quite sure what to make of him. I feel that if people had known that Sauron himself was incapable of destroying the One Ring, they would have been a little more understanding. Awesome video!
Damn right! Isildur has been so misunderstood for such a long time. I was even guilty of it myself. He was an incredible man and his time with the Ring doesn't diminish that in the slightest. The fact that he planned to willingly give it away after having it for TWO YEARS is insane. No one else that we see in the story is capable of that. Frodo wouldn't have been able and he had it (actively) for less time. It wasn't weakness that flowed through his veins, it was strength.
Don’t tear down Frodo, though. Isildur never even considered destroying the Ring. Frodo marched across Middle-earth for 6 whole months fully intent on destroying it, and yet he didn’t break until the last possible moment.
Is anyone else secretly craving details about the secret lore of ring-crafting? Like, how cool would it have been to hear (completely fictional) technical details about how to make a magic ring? The special woods required to heat the forge; the length of time to allow for heating the ingots; the particular mix of metals; the magic runes that must be inscribed on the ingots before they're melted; the mixture of clays to make the crucible; the spells that must be recited while casting. It would be so cool to have the recipe!
What if a Fourth Age character chanced upon an ancient manuscript recorded by Celebrimbor describing how to craft a magic ring, and spends years trying to find a specific tree whose ash is needed to carburise the alloy, but it has gone extinct.
Welp. Time to boot up my word processor and retreat into hermitage for the foreseeable future. Tata
For amazon its just a mystery box. Holy crap.
That s what movies are for! To show, real life detail. But the writers have to be at level and not introduce discrepancies; like adding natural laws to a new Universe future scientists can make full sense of. Tolkien drops exactly what s necessary to link it all together coherently, that s _economy of means_. DJB/djb
4th age rings of power would be impossible as Sauron was defeated. That’s why the others rings lost their power as well
Would be fun to know what went into it though. I know not technically canon but the shadow of Mordor and war could have gone into it a bit especially war since a ring of power is made with celebrimbor’s character being involved
I had put Isildur on the same level as Boromir, in that they weren't bad guys, they just had the unlucky fortune to be tested by the ring (and failed.) Thank you for the more in depth look at Isildur, because his life before meeting the ring is rarely ever talked about, and he deserves his great deeds to be known. I really hope they address this in the Amazon show.
Isuldur probably didn't fully appreciate the power or significance of the One Ring at the end of the 2nd Age. However, Tolkein's later writings say that Isuldur was bringing the Ring to Elrond, to seek his counsel, when he was killed at the Disaster at the Gladden Fields.
Isildur will only be a hero if he is a transgender woman. White hetero Men are all villains these days.
One mistake Doesn't erase a lifetime of noble brave deeds
The Amazon show has nothing to do with Tolkien. They're just making different characters up and even changing the story and characters. About 90% of it will be made up by Amazon even tho Tolkien wrote perfect stories. They're literally destroying everything he wrote
@@feryea3689 “The Amazon show has nothing to do with Tolkien”
>
“They’re literally destroying everything he wrote”
Which is it? Is the show completely disconnected from his writings?
Or is it ruining what he wrote?
Thank you for the section on Isildur. It’s one of the most frustrating parts of the movies for me. Glad to see you give him credit
I think Aldarion (and the Numenoreans as a whole) perfectly characterize the inherent curiosity we all have. The Valar gave them Numenor - a land of plenty that was basically as close to living in Valinor that Men would ever get to experience. But Men (humans) are not content to stay in one place forever, for life is too short. Middle-earth in the Second Age was not the settled place we think of in Lord of the Rings, outside of places like Lindon, Khazad-Dum, parts of Eregion, later places like Lothlorien, and MUCH later places like Gondor.
During the Second Age, Middle-earth would have seemed wild, untamed, and full of curiosities and possibilities to someone like Aldarion.
Well said. Numenor seems to be a microcosm of mens curiosity and pride leading them down dark roads to ruin.
so true on Isildur! i remember hearing the narration by “Galadriel” in the beginning of the movie and was thinking “wtf! this is totally unfair to isildur…and the race of Men”
Galadriel just hatin cuz she knows men are about to own Middle Earth.
I think that was necessary for the forced peej conflict of "elrond doesn't want aragorn and arwen to be a thing" to kinda work since isildur failing like he did in the movie explains elronds doubt in men.
Not that I agree with that decision of course.
To be fair it turns out the Galadriel turned up at Numenor after spending weeks or months (?) at sea wanting help and support defeating Sauron. Yet she was thrown in jail next to Halbrand and more or less no one believed her.
I'd want the last word on Men as well...
The movies did do him an injustice because he was on his way to Elrond to hand over the ring
@@Minihopa seek therapy..
Awesome!!! loved Cirdan, interesting that he and Elrond urged Isildur to cast or destroy the ring. Loved what you said about Isildur, agreed a truly great hero among men. I think that for me was the biggest disapointment with Jackson was the way he destroys or lessens all the major characters. Like making out that Aaragon was unsure about his path, he did it to all of them, i think to make it more believable, but what makes them awesome, is at the essence of Tolkein's writings... Stay Groovy 💕
I'm still annoyed over the hatchet job PJ did to Denethor. He couldn't emphasize the tragedy of a noble man brought low by despair. They had to make him an incompetent buffoon.
@@colindunnigan8621 especially sad because John Noble is a Shakespearean actor and easily could have pulled it off.
Your idea about the Entwives as slaves is interesting. I'd often wondered at how Sauron managed to feed his huge forces. I know it says in the books that the south of Mordor was used for agriculture and there was trade of sort with the South and East, but I can't see orcs and their ilk being any use at all for farming and even enslaved Men would struggle to make green things grow in the required abundance in a land that was so steeped in evil. And imports from Rhun and Harad would only work for non-perishable goods.
But if Sauron had Entwives in his thrall, they had the power to make crops grow under almost any conditions. The Ents were the obvious inspiration for the Nym and Ogier in the (unbastardised) Wheel of Time. So perhaps there was some hope for Treebeard after all, and that is an encouraging thought.
This reminds me of Saruman's orcs getting fed up with 'maggoty bread' and wanting some meat - and eating each other. They seemed to be able to manage to march/run a long time without needing much food. If Saruman and Sauron were both experts at engineering/breeding orcs maybe they also bred animals for them to eat that didn't need to eat much or were scavengers?! Imagine they had dinosaur like creatures like the winged ones the Nazgul could ride - there's a lot of meat on some of those...! And Oliphaunts were much bigger than Elephants.
Great choices Mellon Dave.
The second age has fascinated me as well Dave.
The transition age.
First age was the pinnacle of elves and introduction of men.
Second age was the rise of men and slow decline of elves.
Third age was the departing of the elves and the dominion of men
Elrond isn't just a half-elf, he is just four generations from the queen of doriath Melian Gwendolyn the Maia, and king Thingol who was of the first Eldar, eldest of the children of Ilúvatar,
Well done with the defense of Isildur
Great video! I'm so happy you included Celeborn in this! He is my favourite character and it always makes me so sad to see him deemed unimportant.
I love Celeborn too. He's totally underrated!
"But this is straight up slander!" Ha! As always, a wonderfully researched and wholly groovy video. I have the best time with this content; it is so appreciated during this crazy time.
You should make a series of videos called „In defense of XY“ and bring justice to many characters, who were wrongfully portrated in the movies „worse“ than how Tolkien wrote them in the books, like you did here so wonderfully with Isildur and with Frodo in one of your other videos... There are so many more who deserve the truth to be spoken loudly - Denethor, Theoden, both Faramir and Boromir, Bard and Thranduil from Hobbit movies, etc. They deserve justice and with your knowledge and interpretation it will be amazing!
I've been thinking about doing this for a while 😊 Frodo, Denethor, Isildur and Elrond would be the four I'd start with!
@@tolkienuntangled awesome 😎
Gil Galad is the man, or more appropriately the Elf Man!!
Very much. There needs to be respect on his name
Glad you stood up for Isildur. He did everything right in life except fall at the last hurdle, taking the ring in the moment of victory. Might Elendil, or all other men, not have done the same if he survived?
Also 37:20 Sauron may well have burned the gardens of the Entwives. Maybe they were all killed, not just lost, as Treebeard said.
However, Tolkien throws us a pretty substantial bone. In the chapter The Shadow of the Past, Sam states that his cousin Hal clearly saw a walking elm tree up on the North moors where “there aren’t any trees”. Maybe he saw an isolated Ent. Maybe it was an Entwife.
Wonderful compilation of characters. And kudos to you for giving a “point of view” synopsis on each.
When I see the lore explained in this manner rich in Tolkien’s characters - it puzzles me why Amazon takes the route to fill - nay, HIGHLIGHT! - its TV show with so many Amazon-created characters!
5 seasons, about 50hours of screen time, why spend significant chunks of time on Amazon-created characters when there are THESE Tolkien characters to depict?
Because they don’t have the rights to most of the second age. In a way, it’s good they’re creating their own stories rather than ruining these.
@@mrs.manrique7411 you're correct 💯
For Gil-galad is my favorite. His character is amazing. He did so much and it seem he was a thorn in Sauron side. Sauron wanted him out of the way
Another awesome video contribution to promote our deeper understanding of Middle-earth. I am always glad I have taken the time to watch, listen and learn! 👍
Great list and another wonderful video. I do find the Blue wizards fascinating. I really wish there was more about them.
Keep up the awesome work.
"Celeborn gets less attention that his famous wife, Galadriel."
Rings of Power: "He died. Also his armor didn't fit him."
Dave the Deathless, right on time.
That is an awesome nickname. Definitely suits Dave.
I like to thank you for your assessment on Isildur. It was spot on. I will be showing this to my friends who love the story but haven’t read the books.
33:44 Sauron was specialized in fighting and was a great warrior. Tolkien stated that Sauron was already very weakened both in body strength and spirit after Akhallabeth. Despite his weakened state he broke the siege of Barad-dur, drove the whole army of the Last Alliance 30 miles back to the slopes of Mount Doom and defeated the 2 High kings with his bare hands singlehandedly!
"Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster and *diminished* (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). *He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation,* and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.”
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter 211 to Rhona Beare)]
"Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles, before they should take root. Orodruin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom. *But Sauron struck too soon, before his own power was rebuilt,* whereas the power of Gil-galad had increased in his absence."
[Appendix A. (I) The Numenorean kings (i) Númenor, Return of the King]
where was it stated that Sauron excelles at fighting?
@@jmdomaniii I don't believe it's ever stated that he is specialized in fighting. His specialty is crafting. But he is immensely powerful, even weakened. As implied by the passages noted above.
Rainbow Dave videos are like surprise Christmas presents during the year! You made me remember how much better the book is than the films, and why I used to read it every year ( before I had children)… I really long to read it again😊 thanks!
Well met RD! Anarion, Gil-Galad, Elendil, Isildur, and Celebrimbor.
Excellent list as always! Keep up the great work Mellon!
Ecthelion!!
Thanks once more Dave, for an excellent presentation of some of the most important characters of the Second Age. I'm tempted to comment on a number of them but I'll contain myself for simply providing absolute support of your assessment of the character of Isildur. I think his actions by a great order of magnitude, outweigh his understandably naive considerations for just what that hoop of golden metal was capable of.
I too felt dismay at the presentation of Isildur provided by PJ in the films. I do think I understand why he did it but it's unfortunate that it inaccurately portrays Isildur as some sort of greedy sap that would learn too late the folly of his decision.
I believe the rationale for PJ doing so, was due to (sadly) audience expectations. For some inexplicable reason, we humans seem to always desire a "fall guy" to shift blame on to, when things go tragically wrong. Doesn't seem to matter that any other person in such a situation would undoubtedly have taken the same course of action. We seem to always seek someone to point a finger at and say, "well if it wasn't for him/her, then..."
This isn't the only time in the grand Tolkien mythos brought to film we see this; as you accurately identified wrt Radagast, for example in another vid and even Elrond was given short shrift a few times in the films. Again, I can only suppose but I do believe that these developments were again, for the benefit of an unknowing general audience's perceptions, whom more often than not, see most of the world in black and white, good or evil.
Fortunately, (as I also believe PJ was aware) true fans of the books know the "truth" of whom these characters truly were. I at least, hope so! :)
Oh, just as an aside, one true creep that could have made your list, is one I truly despise, Ar-Pharazon (he doesn't deserve the name Tar-Calion, hrumph!). Regardless, the guy played a HUGE role in the Second Age so though a villain (like his sneaky buddy) is a contender.
Thanks so very much, once again!
This is fantastic and thank you for putting it together. I never knew any of this and am very grateful for your doing this.
I strongly agree! I wish everybody who had the misfortune to watch Rings of Power sees this video! I only watched reviews of the show, which I found appalling.
Your channel is fantastic!
Great list! I agree with the treatment of Isildur in the movies. I’m glad he made the list. Thanks for another enjoyable and insightful video Rainbow Dave!
Wow, this is an excellent primer for Rings of Power, unsullied by jealous prejudice, and only garnered by unbridled love.
Missed Galadriel though :)
Happy Easter Friday, Rainbow Dave. Stay Groovy! 🤟
Awesome list and the information in it. I especially appreciated the information about Isildur. I also deplore how he was portrayed in the movie, but I guess the truth was too involved to shortly sum up, so I understand why they made that choice. But the information about how no one would be able to destroy the ring was new to me so thanks!
So glad you mentioned Oropher and Thranduil! But I think it would help to mention that Oropher, as one of the few high-born Sindar elves confirmed to be alive by the end of the second age, would be most likely to know the exact details of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, the ship burning at Losgar and subsequent deaths during the crossing of the Helcaraxe - putting aside the two Kinslayings of the Sindar themselves by Noldor + the kinda racist implications of dark vs light elves - and, most importantly, the Doom of Mandos.
If, as is very likely, Oropher knew about the Doom, he'd know that the Noldor would screw things up EVEN - often, especially - while trying to do good. Since he, unlike Celeborn, wasn't married to a Noldor, it makes perfect sense that he'd want to stay as far away from the Noldor as possible.
Tal-Elmar is my favourite Second Age character. Show love for the underdog. A very pleasant video to watch, thank you 🖖🏼
Hello Dave! Thanks for this video, I basically binge watching tou entire channel this week (lol) and make me very happy to see a new one uploaded! Until the next one!
I interpreted Isildur's choice to claim the One Ring was a bit more altruistic than people gave him credit. Had he destroyed the One Ring, the other Rings of Power would no longer be capable of preserving their Elven Kingdoms. By claiming it, the Elves were allowed to continue to flourish and thrive as the Third Age began. They owed their added time in Middle-Earth to Isildur.
Isildur is so misunderstood he was a good guy it was ring trying to turn him
Excellent video, I like the take on Isildur and make him a little justice
Cheers!
Legend suggests that Celeborn did not actually fight in the War of the Last Alliance. He missed it because he had a dental appointment. It is an established fact that Galadriel only dated guys with perfect teeth.
There seems to be a painting by someone or other, of nearly every character in the Legendarium...it's as though the world is nearly ready for a graphic novel. 🙂
Cirdan is also the most overlooked character by people yet vital player..
That one image you use of Celebrimbor examining a ring was used for the cover of Treasures of Middle Earth by Iron Crown Enterprises when they had the license for a role-playing game based on Middle Earth. As for finding a written document describing how to make a Ring of Power, something like that would not be written down.
Great video! For future ideas, I would like to hear more about the dwarves of the second age.
I love the explosion of colour when you give a video a like these days. It really suits this channel.
Your videos are amazing! Thanks so much.
Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy them
Thank you for all your hard work.
Another fantastic video!
I named my childhood dog "Gil" so this was a nice way of remembering her haha
Another excellent post. Your analysis is always insightful, thanks again!
Another great video! As a Tolkien newbie, it would be interesting to see a video about the meaning behind different symbols and colors worn by all the characters. Like the changing tree symbols used by men, and the different types of clothes and armor worn by elves.
When it says that nobody was able to injure the ring, Gandalf threw it into the fire at Frodo’s house. Even if he suspected it was the one ring, nobody throws anything into the fire without expecting it to be damaged or destroyed.
Thank you for a very illuminating video!
What about Ar-Pharazon? He's corrupted yes but don't you think his decisions created so much of what happens in the second and third age? He seems to me to be one of the most pivotal characters in all of Tolkens writings and yes extremely flawed.
Yeah, he's a great character. Eventually, I hope to do a whole series of videos about his life and death
Can't wait to hear more about these guys when we get to that part of the Legendarium (someday).
You did an excellent job with this Second Age list. Well done. Thank you (also, your intro 🤣)
Excellent work .... made some great points and generalizations that are very enlightening.
I know that he got in over his head with the rings of power, but I just love Celebrimbor. As a crafter myself, I understand the lure of the ability to learn new techniques in order to make marvelous things.
Another great video! Thanks Dude.
Hello Dave, firstly I want to thank you for all these amazing videos. I also have a question; will you do a series focused on the Second Age, like you did with Feanor and the Silmaris and Wars of Beleriand etc. ?
You forgot stg about Cirdan that makes him in the top few : his beard. He's the only 100% official bearded Elf that we know... yet proving there can be others
Gil Galad is the best. He's the least elf like elf in my opinion. In my understanding family and bloodlines are the most significant thing to an elf. The goal is to do something great to enhance the prestige of your family. But Gil Galad, next to gandalf, is the big picture guy. The survival of elves as a whole, not just noldor is his driving force. Gil Galad had no problem reaching out to men and establishing friendships and alliances. And Gil Galad is the kind of guy you want to be friends with. Loyalty duty and sacrifice are his values over all. He's loving and kind but is always ready to put the good of the whole above his own and whether anyone knows it or not is inconsequential
Great video! Thanks Rainbow Dave
Question: When elves dies they stay in a spirit form for 1000 years and are then reborn. By the time of the Hobbit shouldn't some of these more famous and powerful elves of the first age haven been present again?
ridiculuously incredible ! thankyou so much :)
Top ten first age characters would be awesome!!!
There is a name that belongs on this list, and I am astonished to be the first to give this name as he was possibly the mightiest of the kings of Numenor, and certainly the most daring. I speak of a mortal king that bested Sauron without combat, invaded Valinor itself, and wrought a greater cataclysm that Morgoth at the height of his power or the destruction of the War of Wrath. I speak of Ar-Pharazon the Golden. Without him, Sauron might never have been conquered or the nation of Numenor fallen.
After his death, Celebrimbor's body being used as a banner by Sauron has the feel of a crucifix. As he didn't return to Middle Earth as Glorfindel and Gandalf did, he isn't a Christ figure. However, he did sacrifice himself so that Gil-Galad and Galadriel, keepers of the elven rings, would be safe.
I appreciate your content dude, back story family tree detail files of charactes
Fantastic video!
Anarion was my favorite and I think if he had lived things would have been different. 😁
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Cirdan is so old by the end of the Second Age that he is (to my knowledge) the only elf, alive or dead, to have ever born a beard.
Erendis and Aldarion would be a great story for a Second Age TV show.
I'm almost finished reading the Silmarillion. I didn't read anything about Oropher. What book do I read for that and some others that weren't in the Silmarillion? I've read the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. I love your videos and they got me to start reading the Silmarillion since I read the other books decades ago.
Almost everything about him comes from the Unfinished Tales. There's a long section about the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, and within that section are the writings on Oropher.
@@tolkienuntangled Thank you. My sister thought she had a copy of The Unfinished Tales. I think our library only has a few books in the legendarium. However, I believe it has The Unfinished Tales.
I wish their was a 1st and 2nd age movie that were good
#isildurdidnothingwrong.. Thanks Dave! What a terrific video. 🤗
Yeees! 45:27 thank u for putting respect on Isildur’s name. I always say, along with Faramir and Denathor, his character was crapped on in the trilogy. I don’t hear anyone really bring that up.
Are you going to do the same video for the first and third age?
Did you like this video, dear watcher? Keep it handy; you're going to love it in the next few years.
Aldarion be like:
“The sea is always right!”
Sauron didn't corrupt the Ent Wives into Ent Blights?
Idk what the fu** you say at the beginning but i love it. Love the vibe man, keep it up bro, setting yourself apart from all the other ones doing same thing.
Thanks!
I am actually really shocked that Ar-Pharazôn the Golden wasn't on the top ten of 2nd Age Characters. The Last King of Númenor. This is a character that really could make an argument is an all time top ten Middle Earth Character. Forces his cousin Tar-Míriel the Queen of Númenor into marriage. Finds out that Sauron claims the title King of Men and masses together the largest single army ever. This army is probably larger than The Last Alliance Army which was between 110,000-140,000 strong. So your looking at what 200,000-250,000 Númenóreans at least every man able to wield a sword. He has to have a force large enough where open warfare isn't even an option. Forcing Sauron to be humble for a while and allow himself to be captured. Ar-Pharazôn burns the white tree and leads his people into worshipping Morgoth. Than even goes to the Undying Lands and breaks the World. In the process Númenor is destroyed by a giant Tsunami wave sent by the Valar.
Great video love it
So....at 21:30 or thereabouts, we see that the Blue Wizards are using holographic A.I.s to guide them?
Can *anything* be cooler than a holographic elven personal-assistant? (let's not get into 'fully interactive virtual tactile combat elven A.I.s - that way lies a blissful madness). What's it's name, Caladnette? Calmavende?
i love your way of calling really epic people “guys” and “dudes”
These ships of the faithful Numenorians muct have been huge, with thousands of people on each ship, it they are to build two nations! Yes, there were Numenorian colonies in Middle Earth, but some of those were the King's Men. I don't have the facts at my fingertips, but I beleive I read/heard that the faithful were strong in the north, the king's men in the south. Still, I don't think the nine ships of the faithful were actually single ships - I rather see them as fleets. Thestrength of the Numenorians in Gondor and Arnor just doesn't fit on just nine ships.
Where were the Nazúl during the war of the Last Alliance? Were they still slowly becoming wraiths, and living as men, and so avoiding the wrath of the Last Alliance?
Thank you for your art
Hi love the channel I'm wondering if you could do an explanation on why elves can just switch spieces at will are there any physical changes and why or why not?
This is a good question, but not all elves can choose a mortal life. It's only available to Elrond, his brother, and his children. Legolas, for example, would not be able to choose a mortal life.
The reason that the children of Elrond can make this choice, is because they're descended from half-elves. The parents of Elrond and his brother were Eärendil (who was half elf, half man) and Elwing (who's the daughter of a half elf half man). So the descendents of Elwing and Eärendil could choose to be either mortal or immortal. But no one else can.
Celeborn was literally just a microphone for galadriels mind in the movies lol
Thank you for Justice for Isildur 🤍
What am I saying -- they're all my favorites. Lol
No Durin? Without him, Elrond wouldn't have survived the attack on Eregion. No friendship with Celebrimbor, either. And no Moria. Really missed out on this one.
For me, watching the movies, I always saw Isildur as a tragic character, I never really viewed him as villain or as truly corrupted any more than I really saw Frodo or Boromir that way, corruption is what the ring does
Think I found my new favorite channel
So sad that none of those characters would be in the show, at least not true to their real character. I love the second age. ❤️ Especially because it shows that even elves can be tricked by evil. 😅 Isildur is like Boromir. Not a bad man at all, but the he didn't stand the ring. The heart of men are easily corrupted.
More entertaining than the Amazon show
51:45 “Should.” There’s a lot of wiggle-room in that word.