While Númenor's fall was catastrophic, I would say that overall it was a success. Many people, both on the island and on Middle-Earth, were able to live much better lives because of what the Númenoreans did, particularly in fighting against Sauron.
This was such a good video. So insightful on every level - Sauron, the Valar, nature of Men vs Elves, etc.. Regarding the beginnings of the fall - I tend to think part of the jealousy of the Elves and Gil Galad was also the fact that without Numenor, Sauron would have DESTROYED the Elves! Yet they continue to live on while the men in Numenor do not.
Easily some of the best JRRT analysis on YT. This channel and MotW has me finally moving past the core of LotR and Silmarillion and into the Lost Tales and works that Christopher Tolkien edited like The Fall of Gondolin. Keep it up!
"could have said more about it"..,please do. I find your insights fascinating. The implication is that Sauron did not expect the response, but what outcome might have Sauron expected? As an Ainu himself he must have had some insight into possible reactions. Did he simply anticipate a large battle with the Valar eventually victorious but weakened, and the mortal foces destroyed leaving Sauron to rule what was left of Numenor?
I think the implication here is that Sauron did not except Eru Himself to get involved - a massive surprise that only happened due to the Valar not taking violent action. Sauron probably wanted some devastation, the removal of Lords in battle that would leave him with Numenor as his own (which was his original plan). Instead, he gets dragged into the sea with the island and the kingdom is destroyed. Only those he couldn't control are saved through their faith as they journey back to Middle-earth.
I think Numenor lifted out of Sea by Osse, has some significance in the doomedness of the island. I think Eru intentionally made men so that Valar wouldn’t be able to do same mistakes as they did with elves, as Valar don’t understand men.
Finally got around to watching this. I love that Elendil is a descendant of the first, first born woman who could not obtain power and was passed over for her younger brother. The abdications of succeeding queens, and greedy kings’ holding on to power as long as possible, is quite interesting.
I dont think you were listening to the same video as me. There were both corrupt men and women seated on the throne. I don't know if you are trying to weave in modern 4th stage feminism but just as my evidence the turning point to the negative is under a queen who abdicates but very late and its not a great handoff for the rulership of the isle.
I don't get it. I've been a Tolkien addict for decades and I know most of his histories almost by heart. Yet *The Red Book* refreshes them with his suitably dour and sombre grandiloquy. For me, Tolkien's First and Second Age tales are superior to any/all of the Greek myths.
That was a fantastic episode. I wonder if Melkor had never come to Eä, would Men have had the issue of their hröa not dying, similar to the hypothetical of them living in Aman. I imagine the Valar would have lived in Almaren with the elves eventually retreating there and men living outside. It seems the issue is more about the world in Aman being unchanging rather than it being free of Melkor, and by giving Men their own region beyond Almaren, they would be able to change amongst themselves and thus die naturally. If that is the case, then I wonder if it would have been viable for Men to be born and live in Valinor if they were given their own community and freedom to change. I can see how it would be an issue though for the Valar and Elves to continue to interact with them indefinitely as they would be a force of stagnation for men and could always bring up that envy. Though if never exposed to any element of Melkor I wonder if envy over deathlessness would be a thing. And if it is, then that would imply that there would have been strife and envy even in a world without Melkor. Which I suppose makes sense. If Melkor can fall due to free will then a world without him can fall too.
I always find it interesting that the first problem in numemorean succession is what ultimately led to their downfall. Silmarian being passed over for Meneldur, against her fathers wishes, causes the lords of andunie to spilt from the main royal family. If she had become queen its possible her descendants might never have been corrupted.
If you could, it would be wonderful if you did an analysis of The Tale of Adanel. It is so undermined in the Legendarium, yet I think someone of your talent would do it justice.
Episode 2 of the new season is the longest video/episode yet. Check out the description for notes/references mentioned in the video. Enjoy! The Red Book on Patreon: www.patreon.com/theredbook
I finished this in 1 sitting on Spotify and have eagerly awaited its UA-cam counterpart for the art as well as to leave my comment here. This may well be the best video you’ve done, managing to condense all of Numenorean history rather succinctly! I most enjoyed how The Valar’s lack of understanding of Man meant it was a doomed project from the start, how tragic! Numenor is my favourite aspect of Middle-Earth too, updating the Atlantean myth not only with high-fantasy scale and splendor, but also analysing the fallibility of Man, his quick satiety with good and tendency towards evil. A job well done, all in all!
Hi Red Book! I've started relistening to TFOTR and something struck me as odd. In the Shire, while the Hobbits are being pursued by the Nazgul, there are a couple of instances where that Nazgul was trying to sense the Ring which was urging Frodo to put it on. Once was interrupted by the Elves, but in both other instances (that I'm remembering) that Nazgul gave up at the last second before Frodo's strength could fail him. Why did the Nazgul give up so quickly then? Could it have been "Providence" by Eru? Or did the Nazgul simply believe that no one could resist the Ring and so underestimated the duration of time one could resist? Since the Hobbits were near a stream at the time (I think) could that have allowed Ulmo a chance to offer a distraction off-camera as it were? Plus, who know how many other options there could be to answer this question. Thanks for all you do!
Thanks for another awesome episode 🙏 I was pondering upon the mortality of the Men vs immortality of the Eldar( and the Ainur ofc). Even though humans have never been my favorite race in Tolkien’s legendarium ( but they are not my least favorite either ). I could never help it but empathize especially with Numenorians ,who had great lives ,so it’s only normal for them to not wanna leave them for the unknown of the Death . And hearing about the scenario ( I remember reading it myself ,but never pondered on that part) ,what would happen if a mortal Man lives in Aman ,where the body will remain strong ,never suffering ,no wear and tear . But the limited span of the human soul ,would make it an issue ,would turn the human feral ( kinda makes me think of the Vampires ,especially in something like Buffy The Vampire slayer ,where they are supposedly soulless ,but in general the “ eternal life of the undead” is a life of the flesh ,but I’ll try not to get sidetrack here). But just before that ,you mention that Aman is ,what the entire world could have been if Melkor wasn’t pouring his malice in it. So,just the two things together , I guess ,made me ponder ,so , if Melkor wouldn’t have marred Arda ,especially Middle-earth ,would that by that logic mean ,nothing aside humans was going to be dying there ,or would they have suffered the same scenario ( A Man in Aman scenario ) ,just anywhere on Arda . And wouldn’t that make Eru’s creation even more imperfect 🤔.
This really depends on the mythology of Man. Remember that when Melkor originally corrupted them, Eru then supposedly spoke these words "'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.". Some then thought that they had originally been immortal but it seems that the race of Men possibly had extended lifespans (maybe closer to what Numenoreans were blessed with). Perhaps if mankind had continued to have a longer life, then it wouldn't seem so short to them. There would have been no desire to have a longer life, meaning no disparity between a body that doesn't seem to wither and a spirit that must leave it eventually. This only really becomes a problem in a world where mankind is born into a tainted world. But Melkor did corrupt Men and Arda, which then alters their life on earth. If they were brought into a world where Middle-earth was essentially blissful like Aman then they themselves would not have been corrupted in their origins. They would have still died but naturally and peaceful, this is a paradise scenario though. We are trying to resolve the fact that Men were born corrupted with a scenario where they weren't. If the Valar were never driven out of Middle-earth, then it was never corrupted, and Men wouldn't have been corrupted. Meaning, no problem surely? Aman only becomes this big problem because it is set apart from a world that does decay and change. As always, the deeds of Melkor get incorporated into the plan of Eru. It's no coincidence that man wakens when the sun arises. A sun that wouldn't have been there had Melkor not destroyed the lamps!
@@TheRedBook I guess them poor humans really needed guidance . But I wonder if the also tainted Elves ,even if they all stayed behind were capable of giving it . Because even in Aman ,they were losing will to live ,kinslaying ,remarrying etc. And a good portion stayed behind ,and the Avari even supposedly helped the humans with their speech development . But most elves ( like the Nandor ,and later the Sindar ) would distrust and avoid them. So, perhaps , in tainted by Melkor world the mankind had not much chance of happiness with or without the elves .
I’m so grateful you posted these. The soundscapes you create to support the telling of the lore, as well as your speech patterns and deliberate delivery is just so so perfect.
@@intenzityd3181 "Even to the Valar it us unknown what is "The Gift of Men" " ie. Mortality is better than the Elven gifts to those who linger and eventually fade are nothing but a conundrum. Perhaps that is why Cirdan is now invisible even as his beard grew long and his eyes grew bright In the Fourth Age I love to think about how in the Lebinnin Legolas and Gimli built a ship together....I am 99.999% sure Cirdan was a helper therewithall Cirdan built the last ship "and long it was abuilding"..... I think Cirdan may still be among us
@@intenzityd3181 the Valar do not know what to do with mortality. Beren came to them and they sent him back for a second go. Tuor came to them and they said "come on in", but they put his son Earendil as a prisoner on a flying ship forevermore? Mandos of all the Valar knows most perhaps??? No... Olmo in my mind has the greatest plan, for it defies Mandos' uttermost lock and key
The very institutions of power, once created by his great ancestors and founders of his nation, having become decadent, subverted and corrupted by the Enemy, would have branded him a villain and far right extremist for trying to restore what was for them an oppressive past
Maybe this is totally obvious to most people, but listening to this made me realize that Sauron acted a lot like a real world cult leader in Numenor. From a list of criteria to recognize cults: Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders Dishonoring the family unit Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies, and persecutions. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. Followers feel they can never be "good enough". The group/leader is always right. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible
The Romans, being an inferior naval power, without a standing fleet, being a city state controlling most of Italy, built a thousand ships carrying a hundred thousand men, sent them against Carthage and lost the fleet in a storm. They had multiple fleets. They then built another one sent it within a year. The size of these fleets, and these battles in the 1st Punic War would not be seen again until modern times. The Numenorians, a sea-faring people, with a subcontinent that had been developed for millenia for the purpose of ship building, in their attack on the Undying Lands, almost certainly exceeded all combined numbers in the 1st Punic War. The numbers of men and ships employed would have no equal in human history. (certainly exceeded in tonnage since then though)
I wonder about the Messengers that came from the Valar to try and guide the Numenoreans back to the light. Initially I though they were Maiar, arriving in splendor, but they might have been "merely" Elves too, and thus less impressive to the royal court.
Of course I have absolute trust in Amazon and their upcoming depiction of it. It will be a marvel of faithfullness to the book, an hommage to Tolkien and an art masterpiece. ... ^^ No it won't.
ngl, going through the kings it seems Tolkien did not like women. Erendis, Telperien, Amcalime, all seem very negative. (Chill out internet, I just said seems not that he did)
Eowyn, Arwyn, Luthien.... all three righteous arse-kickers or master magic users. Luthien knocked Satan himself out cold! I think he liked and loved women just fine, and wrote about both good and bad ones.
@raslipmugfrud2040 sea longing in Tolkien is fascinating to me. It's a reoccurring theme but because I live very very far from the nearest ocean, I don't understand it.
If possible, I would like to bring up some of Tolkien's view of Men's evil. Just touching on what might have been a fo.low on to LOTR. About 250 years after Sauron's fall, a new darkness among Men was gathering. Possibly descendents of the Black Numenoreans in Southron. A Gondorian ship & crew had gone missing, and a Gondorian citizen who stil, remembered the evil of old, grew suspicious. I have used this as an example of Tolkien's views. As for the people of Numenor, a disatisfaction settled over the people. Some started to question their role & the restrictions given to them. It would seem Morgoth's shadow had even a grasp on the hearts of what were the Edain. From disatifaction, came bitterness & arogance. The Shadow of Death stiill plagued the people of Numenor. This was how Numenor's dow fall started.
I have been thinking about the times when Eru intervened. I have kind of viewed these events as necessary course corrections, but that seems unsatisfactory to me. I am wondering if anyone has a better interpretation.
Where do you get the background music for this episode? Also keep up the amazing work. Your channel is outstanding and the pride you take in it is clear.
I just found your channel when the NiME popped in my feed. I just got past When Sorrow Sang and the video disappeared. Now my heart is broken twice. I don't know if it will return, but for what it is worth, that was excellent. To somehow do justice to both the Silmarillion AND NiME....Absolutely LEGENDARY. I think the Guardians and Tolkien would approve.
Hello! Sorry about that. A weird upload error was present for Blood Tears. I need to fix that later today and I will be uploading the video again. Just a temporary thing but I'd like to fix the issue. Video will be back up ASAP.
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I saw that broken part, thought YT was taking it down then. I'll definitely be checking your other videos though as that was excellent. Top-tier.
@@syntheticsleep Cheers, plenty of videos there! Though the old ones are a bit rough... As for the video. It's definitely my side. It will be the drive I use to cache media before rendering into a video has ran out of space. When that happens, it takes media offline. I've just not noticed it after making the video, annoyingly. Easy to fix though.
Middle-earth was tainted, Aman was seen as sanctuary. Bring the Elves over to a clean land instead of dwelling in Middle-earth. They had made it their home after leaving Middle-earth, maybe Melkor being released from Mandos would have him then taint Aman if the Valar left.
Nice to finally now be able to actually speak to you now, The Red Book, I can completely see that you love discussing a lot about J. R. R. Tolkien and his created Legendarium, and because of that I'm going to cut straight to the chase and explain what ideas I have specifically for you to read right now. I have this idea or these ideas where you and a bunch of other youtubers who are massive fans of J. R. R. Tolkien and his created Legendarium should all come together with the entire cast and crew of Sir Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy (2001-03), and when I mean the entire cast and crew I am not kidding or telling a joke, I'm actually being serious. The director, the directors of photography, the producers, the executive producers, the cinematographers, the film composer, the actors (including some of the actors behind the scenes such as Sir Christopher Lee, Sir Ian Holm and the other actors that are now dead, and this doesn't involve the famous actor Sir Ian McKellen), the script supervisors, the writers, the editors, the stunt supervisors, the food supervisors, the makeup artists, the production designers, the people who were involved with the songs Aníron and May it Be, by Enya and Nicky Ryan, Gollum's Song, by Emilíana Torrini, and Into the West, by Annie Lennox, the people who created the weapons, prosthetics, miniatures or the Big-atures (according to Jackson) and so much more. What I am wanting to happen with you, the other youtubers, and the cast and crew that was involved with Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is for all of you to sit down in one of those stylish meeting rooms, and discuss all together why The Lord of the Rings is the Greatest Trilogy Ever and nothing will ever come close to it not even Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Game of Thrones, House of a Dragon, The Witcher, The Chronicles of Narnia, John Wick, Marvel, DC, The Matrix, Jaws, Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones, The Mummy, Jumanji, James Bond, The Godfather, Godzilla, King Kong, Alien, Predator, The Terminator, The Exorcist, Warhammer and Amazon's The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. There I then thought that you guys can discuss all of your opinions on the J. R. R. Tolkien books, and the Peter Jackson movies, talk about the advantages and disadvantages that they have over and below each other, read all the books fully and analyze them and why they work so well, watch the theatrical and extended editions of the whole movies and analyze them and why they are perfect adaptations, explain the very few references and similarities that they have to The Holy Bible itself (such as the three Christ figures Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo) and probably the film versions of it too, Tolkien's World War 1 experiences that were during the Battle of the Somme that actually changed the course of history, his catholic and religious beliefs, and why nothing in general will ever come close the GOAT in general. You and the other youtubers should also do this thing where you should also analyze all three parts of the story (Part One: The Fellowship of the Ring, Part Two: The Two Towers, and Part Three: The Return of the King) but after each part is over you will all take breaks and vote which youtuber should have a one on one interview with which member of the cast and crew of the trilogy, and then you will all go in separate rooms with a different cast and crew member, plan out what questions you all should ask, change cast and crew members with each break along with different questions, increase the lengths just like the increase within all three parts of The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy, and then when each break is over then talk about what answers that you all got for the interviews. Some of the many youtubers that I thought of inviting to this should be @NerdoftheRings, @thefriendshiponion6189, @Jess_of_the_Shire, @TheBrokenSword, @kingdomsofarda1717, @TolkienLorePodcast, @LoreOfTheRingsYT, @VoiceoftheRings, @TalesoftheRings, @CounciloftheRings, @TheoryoftheRings, @TolkienTree, @DarthGandalfYT @MiddleEarthTheory, @lfwinesroad3399, @geekuniverse6172, @heartofahafling3142, @MemoryTroll, @timbotook6447, @ArachirGaludirithon, @TheTabletopAlliance, @TheOneRingNet, @VoiceofGeekdom, @ThePhilosophersGames, @TolkienTube, @EverythingInMiddleEarth, @BeginningofDays, @GeekZoneMT, @Epic_Kingdom, @MiniExpBounder, @InDeepGeek, @HelloFutureMe, @MiddleEarthLore, @MacbethofGondor and so much more, you should also do this with many other youtubers who don't talk about The Lord of the Rings, but do mention that they are fans of it or at least talk about it such as @ColbertLateShow, @Pilgrims Pass, @PaxTubeChannel, @RewiretheWest, @NerdCookies, @WriterBrandonMcNulty, @flickfanatics7948, @thecluelessfangirl809, @LikeStoriesofOld, @HelloMellowXVI, @PopcornInBed, @JonnyLawYT, @DorkLords, @thegoldman25 and @jedibrooks7235 for example (but not the ones that mention LOTR once and then focus on another film or novel franchise such as @KlaytonFioriti, or @AGamingBeaver), and you should all talk about your different ways on how you would all view this as being a masterpiece. By The Way, you should also share this with many of the other youtubers who love Middle-earth in general and should plan with them on how you could improve on this comment such as inviting so much more youtubers who also love it a lot, and that I didn't add on this comment earlier on, discussing this with Peter Jackson and the Tolkien family and their views on them since they aren't the very best of friends (and that fact that Christopher Tolkien, and Simon Tolkien didn't appreciate it), and should also do the same thing with Peter Jackson's The Hobbit film trilogy (2012-14) and doing the same thing that I explained earlier with LOTR, such as also discussing about the score, and the songs such as The Song of the Lonely Mountain (Extended Version), by Neil Finn, I See Fire, by Ed Sheeran, and The Last Goodbye, by Billy Boyd, (and also discussing again what it was like for some of the cast members that are dead now such as Barry Humphries who played as the Great Goblin and again this does not involve Ian McKellen) but also to mostly discuss why they weren't very good adaptations of the novel. Good luck out there @TheRedBook and please share, and improve on this with the other youtubers, and the entire cast and crew of The J. R. R. Tolkien trilogy and The Peter Jackson trilogy. The real reason for this also is to basically change many different peoples' opinions and views on this amazing work of literature especially since it's the 20th Anniversary of these films, because not all Christians view it as a masterpiece, because I am a huge fan of LOTR too, but also because I'm also one who is a Christian believer, and I have witnessed other Christians not viewing it as a masterpiece that tells the story of good vs evil, since it shown as something completely underrated since people on the internet want a lot of realism, when in reality it actually invented the high fantasy genre, defined the fantasy genre, and it even made John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself (who is of course the author of LOTR and the creator of Middle-earth) become what he is now known as the godfather or the father of modern fantasy that is of course now shown in both the 20th Century with his own books, and the 21st Century with the Peter Jackson adaptations. But also because the movies in my opinion destroy the stuff that Hollywood mainly shows in their films specifically the modern movies that are made today, even if these films are maybe sometimes considered to be not as good as their original work by Tolkien (especially involving around Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy), or if they are even usually considered to be Massive Hollywood, Blockbuster, Action & adventure movies, and also have really epic and really well crafted moments in them such as the large and huge amount of set pieces, the brilliant use practical effects, the incredible and awesome use computer generated effects when it was something made 20 years ago as well, large-scale warfare, six genres which is just everything that is ever put on the film director's bucket list in the three films such as action, adventure, romance, comedy, and horror that was just managed to be put altogether in a whole fantasy setting, and awesome character moments and awesome moments of really well-crafted character development in each of those three films as well. I would also really love your comparisons between the books and the movies and which one you think is the one that is considered to you to actually be better according to your specific opinion on that story.
I'm going to give these LOTR fan channels another chance. But, I swear, if any of you betrays Tolkien again by supporting that Rings of Power woke trash then I am gone for good.
We aren't a hive mind. Other channels can do as they please but I am only responsible for content I put on my channel and I made one Livestream to answer people's questions about the show. If that's still "supporting that Rings of Power woke trash" then 👉
If you’re looking for a channel dedicated to the exploration of the text over adaptations, then you won’t find a better one than this. You can happily delve deep into Tolkien without rung reminded of any irritations you have with other productions.
I’m not sure what exactly is woken about rings of power and even if it is woke, it’s biggest crime in my opinion is that it’s crap. Not sure why they brought an IP, then make up their own story.
@@jamief1263 They bought an IP so they could make up their own woke stories and shove them in our faces... if you don't understand what wokeness is by now that's your problem.
The Atlantean-influence will always fascinate me with Tolkien and Lovecraft.
I’ll add Robert E Howard to that list.
While Númenor's fall was catastrophic, I would say that overall it was a success. Many people, both on the island and on Middle-Earth, were able to live much better lives because of what the Númenoreans did, particularly in fighting against Sauron.
Oh man, this is going to be amazing; I don't know whether to listen to it all in one go, or absorb it in parts! Aah!
I am going to have to watch it in snippets considering that I've just found it and it's time for me to go to bed. 😊
My dilemma exactly🤭
"Brooding darkly and thinking of war" is a hobby of mine as well.
My Friday evening activity.
This was such a good video. So insightful on every level - Sauron, the Valar, nature of Men vs Elves, etc.. Regarding the beginnings of the fall - I tend to think part of the jealousy of the Elves and Gil Galad was also the fact that without Numenor, Sauron would have DESTROYED the Elves! Yet they continue to live on while the men in Numenor do not.
Easily some of the best JRRT analysis on YT. This channel and MotW has me finally moving past the core of LotR and Silmarillion and into the Lost Tales and works that Christopher Tolkien edited like The Fall of Gondolin. Keep it up!
"could have said more about it"..,please do. I find your insights fascinating. The implication is that Sauron did not expect the response, but what outcome might have Sauron expected? As an Ainu himself he must have had some insight into possible reactions. Did he simply anticipate a large battle with the Valar eventually victorious but weakened, and the mortal foces destroyed leaving Sauron to rule what was left of Numenor?
I think the implication here is that Sauron did not except Eru Himself to get involved - a massive surprise that only happened due to the Valar not taking violent action. Sauron probably wanted some devastation, the removal of Lords in battle that would leave him with Numenor as his own (which was his original plan). Instead, he gets dragged into the sea with the island and the kingdom is destroyed. Only those he couldn't control are saved through their faith as they journey back to Middle-earth.
I think Numenor lifted out of Sea by Osse, has some significance in the doomedness of the island. I think Eru intentionally made men so that Valar wouldn’t be able to do same mistakes as they did with elves, as Valar don’t understand men.
Amazing work brother thank you. I follow your podcast also.
Finally got around to watching this.
I love that Elendil is a descendant of the first, first born woman who could not obtain power and was passed over for her younger brother. The abdications of succeeding queens, and greedy kings’ holding on to power as long as possible, is quite interesting.
I dont think you were listening to the same video as me. There were both corrupt men and women seated on the throne. I don't know if you are trying to weave in modern 4th stage feminism but just as my evidence the turning point to the negative is under a queen who abdicates but very late and its not a great handoff for the rulership of the isle.
I don't get it. I've been a Tolkien addict for decades and I know most of his histories almost by heart. Yet *The Red Book* refreshes them with his suitably dour and sombre grandiloquy. For me, Tolkien's First and Second Age tales are superior to any/all of the Greek myths.
That was a fantastic episode.
I wonder if Melkor had never come to Eä, would Men have had the issue of their hröa not dying, similar to the hypothetical of them living in Aman. I imagine the Valar would have lived in Almaren with the elves eventually retreating there and men living outside. It seems the issue is more about the world in Aman being unchanging rather than it being free of Melkor, and by giving Men their own region beyond Almaren, they would be able to change amongst themselves and thus die naturally.
If that is the case, then I wonder if it would have been viable for Men to be born and live in Valinor if they were given their own community and freedom to change. I can see how it would be an issue though for the Valar and Elves to continue to interact with them indefinitely as they would be a force of stagnation for men and could always bring up that envy. Though if never exposed to any element of Melkor I wonder if envy over deathlessness would be a thing. And if it is, then that would imply that there would have been strife and envy even in a world without Melkor. Which I suppose makes sense. If Melkor can fall due to free will then a world without him can fall too.
I always find it interesting that the first problem in numemorean succession is what ultimately led to their downfall. Silmarian being passed over for Meneldur, against her fathers wishes, causes the lords of andunie to spilt from the main royal family. If she had become queen its possible her descendants might never have been corrupted.
NUMENOREENS ET BLACK NUMENOREANS OF UMBAR AND A LITTLE BIT EVERYWERE ON THE WEST COAST OF ARDA., BAD,BAD,BAD AUGURES AND RELIGION.(ADUNAIC.).
Brilliant video, actually one of your best! Always had a bit of problems grasping all the events of Numenor and this was a perfect summery.
If you could, it would be wonderful if you did an analysis of The Tale of Adanel. It is so undermined in the Legendarium, yet I think someone of your talent would do it justice.
Episode 2 of the new season is the longest video/episode yet. Check out the description for notes/references mentioned in the video. Enjoy!
The Red Book on Patreon: www.patreon.com/theredbook
Were you get the picture
Thank you
I finished this in 1 sitting on Spotify and have eagerly awaited its UA-cam counterpart for the art as well as to leave my comment here.
This may well be the best video you’ve done, managing to condense all of Numenorean history rather succinctly! I most enjoyed how The Valar’s lack of understanding of Man meant it was a doomed project from the start, how tragic! Numenor is my favourite aspect of Middle-Earth too, updating the Atlantean myth not only with high-fantasy scale and splendor, but also analysing the fallibility of Man, his quick satiety with good and tendency towards evil. A job well done, all in all!
I can't find the patreon. After clicking the link you provided, the patreon website says " We couldnt find this page"
@@danielcetina5790 Hi, the link has changed - I haven't gone through the old videos yet, sorry! www.patreon.com/stevengibb
Hi Red Book! I've started relistening to TFOTR and something struck me as odd. In the Shire, while the Hobbits are being pursued by the Nazgul, there are a couple of instances where that Nazgul was trying to sense the Ring which was urging Frodo to put it on. Once was interrupted by the Elves, but in both other instances (that I'm remembering) that Nazgul gave up at the last second before Frodo's strength could fail him. Why did the Nazgul give up so quickly then?
Could it have been "Providence" by Eru? Or did the Nazgul simply believe that no one could resist the Ring and so underestimated the duration of time one could resist? Since the Hobbits were near a stream at the time (I think) could that have allowed Ulmo a chance to offer a distraction off-camera as it were? Plus, who know how many other options there could be to answer this question.
Thanks for all you do!
Thanks for another awesome episode 🙏
I was pondering upon the mortality of the Men vs immortality of the Eldar( and the Ainur ofc). Even though humans have never been my favorite race in Tolkien’s legendarium ( but they are not my least favorite either ). I could never help it but empathize especially with Numenorians ,who had great lives ,so it’s only normal for them to not wanna leave them for the unknown of the Death .
And hearing about the scenario ( I remember reading it myself ,but never pondered on that part) ,what would happen if a mortal Man lives in Aman ,where the body will remain strong ,never suffering ,no wear and tear . But the limited span of the human soul ,would make it an issue ,would turn the human feral ( kinda makes me think of the Vampires ,especially in something like Buffy The Vampire slayer ,where they are supposedly soulless ,but in general the “ eternal life of the undead” is a life of the flesh ,but I’ll try not to get sidetrack here).
But just before that ,you mention that Aman is ,what the entire world could have been if Melkor wasn’t pouring his malice in it.
So,just the two things together , I guess ,made me ponder ,so , if Melkor wouldn’t have marred Arda ,especially Middle-earth ,would that by that logic mean ,nothing aside humans was going to be dying there ,or would they have suffered the same scenario ( A Man in Aman scenario ) ,just anywhere on Arda . And wouldn’t that make Eru’s creation even more imperfect 🤔.
This really depends on the mythology of Man. Remember that when Melkor originally corrupted them, Eru then supposedly spoke these words "'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.". Some then thought that they had originally been immortal but it seems that the race of Men possibly had extended lifespans (maybe closer to what Numenoreans were blessed with). Perhaps if mankind had continued to have a longer life, then it wouldn't seem so short to them. There would have been no desire to have a longer life, meaning no disparity between a body that doesn't seem to wither and a spirit that must leave it eventually. This only really becomes a problem in a world where mankind is born into a tainted world.
But Melkor did corrupt Men and Arda, which then alters their life on earth. If they were brought into a world where Middle-earth was essentially blissful like Aman then they themselves would not have been corrupted in their origins. They would have still died but naturally and peaceful, this is a paradise scenario though. We are trying to resolve the fact that Men were born corrupted with a scenario where they weren't. If the Valar were never driven out of Middle-earth, then it was never corrupted, and Men wouldn't have been corrupted. Meaning, no problem surely? Aman only becomes this big problem because it is set apart from a world that does decay and change.
As always, the deeds of Melkor get incorporated into the plan of Eru. It's no coincidence that man wakens when the sun arises. A sun that wouldn't have been there had Melkor not destroyed the lamps!
@@TheRedBook I guess them poor humans really needed guidance . But I wonder if the also tainted Elves ,even if they all stayed behind were capable of giving it . Because even in Aman ,they were losing will to live ,kinslaying ,remarrying etc. And a good portion stayed behind ,and the Avari even supposedly helped the humans with their speech development . But most elves ( like the Nandor ,and later the Sindar ) would distrust and avoid them. So, perhaps , in tainted by Melkor world the mankind had not much chance of happiness with or without the elves .
Excellent exposition. Loved it. Akallabeth is my favourite tale and you covered it with great insight and knowledge. Thanks :)
I’m so grateful you posted these. The soundscapes you create to support the telling of the lore, as well as your speech patterns and deliberate delivery is just so so perfect.
I imagine a mortal man in Aman becoming a kind of vampire or wight. A spirit caged in undying flesh. That's a spooky idea
Tuor alone among men was counted among the firstborn
Mortals don't live any differently in Aman. They would just die normally unless gifted life by the valar.
@@intenzityd3181 "Even to the Valar it us unknown what is "The Gift of Men" "
ie. Mortality is better than the Elven gifts to those who linger and eventually fade are nothing but a conundrum. Perhaps that is why Cirdan is now invisible even as his beard grew long and his eyes grew bright
In the Fourth Age I love to think about how in the Lebinnin Legolas and Gimli built a ship together....I am 99.999% sure Cirdan was a helper therewithall
Cirdan built the last ship "and long it was abuilding".....
I think Cirdan may still be among us
@@intenzityd3181 the Valar do not know what to do with mortality. Beren came to them and they sent him back for a second go. Tuor came to them and they said "come on in", but they put his son Earendil as a prisoner on a flying ship forevermore?
Mandos of all the Valar knows most perhaps??? No...
Olmo in my mind has the greatest plan, for it defies Mandos' uttermost lock and key
This is so close to our own time
I wonder what Sauron’s plan was after the Numenor fleet and army was destroyed
Thank you , I appreciate your work
One of the greatest what-ifs in the Legendarium: What if Elendil had led a rebellion to topple Ar-Pharazon and Numenor became faithful once more
Many nice channels have made similar videos ❤
The very institutions of power, once created by his great ancestors and founders of his nation, having become decadent, subverted and corrupted by the Enemy, would have branded him a villain and far right extremist for trying to restore what was for them an oppressive past
Another great video.
Maybe this is totally obvious to most people, but listening to this made me realize that Sauron acted a lot like a real world cult leader in Numenor.
From a list of criteria to recognize cults:
Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving
Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders
Dishonoring the family unit
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies, and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible
The Romans, being an inferior naval power, without a standing fleet, being a city state controlling most of Italy, built a thousand ships carrying a hundred thousand men, sent them against Carthage and lost the fleet in a storm. They had multiple fleets. They then built another one sent it within a year. The size of these fleets, and these battles in the 1st Punic War would not be seen again until modern times. The Numenorians, a sea-faring people, with a subcontinent that had been developed for millenia for the purpose of ship building, in their attack on the Undying Lands, almost certainly exceeded all combined numbers in the 1st Punic War. The numbers of men and ships employed would have no equal in human history. (certainly exceeded in tonnage since then though)
"There it is said that they lie imprisoned in the caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom." Punished with immortality.
Great work and content friend!💯💢 how i didnt see your channel before man!? Refreshing and definitely original! boom💢 ! new subscriber ! 😉
I wonder about the Messengers that came from the Valar to try and guide the Numenoreans back to the light. Initially I though they were Maiar, arriving in splendor, but they might have been "merely" Elves too, and thus less impressive to the royal court.
To be honest, I think even Elves coming from the West on behalf of the Valar would be very impressive to a royal court.
Am I the only one who finds it funny that the one ring was forged during the reign of someone who utterly refused the ring of marriage?
Of course I have absolute trust in Amazon and their upcoming depiction of it.
It will be a marvel of faithfullness to the book, an hommage to Tolkien and an art masterpiece.
...
^^ No it won't.
ngl, going through the kings it seems Tolkien did not like women. Erendis, Telperien, Amcalime, all seem very negative.
(Chill out internet, I just said seems not that he did)
Eowyn, Arwyn, Luthien.... all three righteous arse-kickers or master magic users. Luthien knocked Satan himself out cold! I think he liked and loved women just fine, and wrote about both good and bad ones.
lmao. Thats all I got a say
It was Aldarion's neglecting his wife that turned Erendis bitter.
@raslipmugfrud2040 sea longing in Tolkien is fascinating to me. It's a reoccurring theme but because I live very very far from the nearest ocean, I don't understand it.
Truly fantastic, thank you
Nice work dude thanks
Time for a nap. You have one of the best sleeping channels
Hopefully not out of boredom!
@@TheRedBook naw
God i love this channel
Wonderful as always.
If possible, I would like to bring up some of Tolkien's view of Men's evil. Just touching on what might have been a fo.low on to LOTR. About 250 years after Sauron's fall, a new darkness among Men was gathering. Possibly descendents of the Black Numenoreans in Southron. A Gondorian ship & crew had gone missing, and a Gondorian citizen who stil, remembered the evil of old, grew suspicious. I have used this as an example of Tolkien's views.
As for the people of Numenor, a disatisfaction settled over the people. Some started to question their role & the restrictions given to them. It would seem Morgoth's shadow had even a grasp on the hearts of what were the Edain. From disatifaction, came bitterness & arogance. The Shadow of Death stiill plagued the people of Numenor. This was how Numenor's dow fall started.
Unbelievably beautiful ❤
Early today 😊
I have been thinking about the times when Eru intervened. I have kind of viewed these events as necessary course corrections, but that seems unsatisfactory to me. I am wondering if anyone has a better interpretation.
Cheers
Where do you get the background music for this episode? Also keep up the amazing work. Your channel is outstanding and the pride you take in it is clear.
This should have been the storyboard for Amazon and yet all we got was Schlack lol. ❤
I just found your channel when the NiME popped in my feed. I just got past When Sorrow Sang and the video disappeared. Now my heart is broken twice.
I don't know if it will return, but for what it is worth, that was excellent. To somehow do justice to both the Silmarillion AND NiME....Absolutely LEGENDARY. I think the Guardians and Tolkien would approve.
Hello!
Sorry about that. A weird upload error was present for Blood Tears. I need to fix that later today and I will be uploading the video again. Just a temporary thing but I'd like to fix the issue. Video will be back up ASAP.
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I saw that broken part, thought YT was taking it down then. I'll definitely be checking your other videos though as that was excellent. Top-tier.
@@syntheticsleep Cheers, plenty of videos there! Though the old ones are a bit rough...
As for the video. It's definitely my side. It will be the drive I use to cache media before rendering into a video has ran out of space. When that happens, it takes media offline. I've just not noticed it after making the video, annoyingly. Easy to fix though.
😍😍😍💕👌
… the gift of man is to die in peace… that’s the real gift for the children of men..
Really enjoyed this. Thanks
I can’t wait to listen to whole video. ☺️☺️☺️
Did something happened to your discord channel? I just entered discord and I was unable to find it.
Hello. Yes, it is only available for members now and isn't public.
Is it ever stated why the Valar didn't return to Middle Earth after Melkor was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos?
Middle-earth was tainted, Aman was seen as sanctuary. Bring the Elves over to a clean land instead of dwelling in Middle-earth. They had made it their home after leaving Middle-earth, maybe Melkor being released from Mandos would have him then taint Aman if the Valar left.
Well done M8
Incredible video
wpaur
NUMENOR.THE DOWNFALL OF ELVES THAT WEŔE TO ACOMPAGNIING HUMANITY...
THE GIFTED.
Nice to finally now be able to actually speak to you now, The Red Book, I can completely see that you love discussing a lot about J. R. R. Tolkien and his created Legendarium, and because of that I'm going to cut straight to the chase and explain what ideas I have specifically for you to read right now. I have this idea or these ideas where you and a bunch of other youtubers who are massive fans of J. R. R. Tolkien and his created Legendarium should all come together with the entire cast and crew of Sir Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy (2001-03), and when I mean the entire cast and crew I am not kidding or telling a joke, I'm actually being serious. The director, the directors of photography, the producers, the executive producers, the cinematographers, the film composer, the actors (including some of the actors behind the scenes such as Sir Christopher Lee, Sir Ian Holm and the other actors that are now dead, and this doesn't involve the famous actor Sir Ian McKellen), the script supervisors, the writers, the editors, the stunt supervisors, the food supervisors, the makeup artists, the production designers, the people who were involved with the songs Aníron and May it Be, by Enya and Nicky Ryan, Gollum's Song, by Emilíana Torrini, and Into the West, by Annie Lennox, the people who created the weapons, prosthetics, miniatures or the Big-atures (according to Jackson) and so much more. What I am wanting to happen with you, the other youtubers, and the cast and crew that was involved with Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is for all of you to sit down in one of those stylish meeting rooms, and discuss all together why The Lord of the Rings is the Greatest Trilogy Ever and nothing will ever come close to it not even Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Game of Thrones, House of a Dragon, The Witcher, The Chronicles of Narnia, John Wick, Marvel, DC, The Matrix, Jaws, Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones, The Mummy, Jumanji, James Bond, The Godfather, Godzilla, King Kong, Alien, Predator, The Terminator, The Exorcist, Warhammer and Amazon's The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. There I then thought that you guys can discuss all of your opinions on the J. R. R. Tolkien books, and the Peter Jackson movies, talk about the advantages and disadvantages that they have over and below each other, read all the books fully and analyze them and why they work so well, watch the theatrical and extended editions of the whole movies and analyze them and why they are perfect adaptations, explain the very few references and similarities that they have to The Holy Bible itself (such as the three Christ figures Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo) and probably the film versions of it too, Tolkien's World War 1 experiences that were during the Battle of the Somme that actually changed the course of history, his catholic and religious beliefs, and why nothing in general will ever come close the GOAT in general. You and the other youtubers should also do this thing where you should also analyze all three parts of the story (Part One: The Fellowship of the Ring, Part Two: The Two Towers, and Part Three: The Return of the King) but after each part is over you will all take breaks and vote which youtuber should have a one on one interview with which member of the cast and crew of the trilogy, and then you will all go in separate rooms with a different cast and crew member, plan out what questions you all should ask, change cast and crew members with each break along with different questions, increase the lengths just like the increase within all three parts of The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy, and then when each break is over then talk about what answers that you all got for the interviews. Some of the many youtubers that I thought of inviting to this should be @NerdoftheRings, @thefriendshiponion6189, @Jess_of_the_Shire, @TheBrokenSword, @kingdomsofarda1717, @TolkienLorePodcast, @LoreOfTheRingsYT, @VoiceoftheRings, @TalesoftheRings, @CounciloftheRings, @TheoryoftheRings, @TolkienTree, @DarthGandalfYT @MiddleEarthTheory, @lfwinesroad3399, @geekuniverse6172, @heartofahafling3142, @MemoryTroll, @timbotook6447, @ArachirGaludirithon, @TheTabletopAlliance, @TheOneRingNet, @VoiceofGeekdom, @ThePhilosophersGames, @TolkienTube, @EverythingInMiddleEarth, @BeginningofDays, @GeekZoneMT, @Epic_Kingdom, @MiniExpBounder, @InDeepGeek, @HelloFutureMe, @MiddleEarthLore, @MacbethofGondor and so much more, you should also do this with many other youtubers who don't talk about The Lord of the Rings, but do mention that they are fans of it or at least talk about it such as @ColbertLateShow, @Pilgrims Pass, @PaxTubeChannel, @RewiretheWest, @NerdCookies, @WriterBrandonMcNulty, @flickfanatics7948, @thecluelessfangirl809, @LikeStoriesofOld, @HelloMellowXVI, @PopcornInBed, @JonnyLawYT, @DorkLords, @thegoldman25 and @jedibrooks7235 for example (but not the ones that mention LOTR once and then focus on another film or novel franchise such as @KlaytonFioriti, or @AGamingBeaver), and you should all talk about your different ways on how you would all view this as being a masterpiece. By The Way, you should also share this with many of the other youtubers who love Middle-earth in general and should plan with them on how you could improve on this comment such as inviting so much more youtubers who also love it a lot, and that I didn't add on this comment earlier on, discussing this with Peter Jackson and the Tolkien family and their views on them since they aren't the very best of friends (and that fact that Christopher Tolkien, and Simon Tolkien didn't appreciate it), and should also do the same thing with Peter Jackson's The Hobbit film trilogy (2012-14) and doing the same thing that I explained earlier with LOTR, such as also discussing about the score, and the songs such as The Song of the Lonely Mountain (Extended Version), by Neil Finn, I See Fire, by Ed Sheeran, and The Last Goodbye, by Billy Boyd, (and also discussing again what it was like for some of the cast members that are dead now such as Barry Humphries who played as the Great Goblin and again this does not involve Ian McKellen) but also to mostly discuss why they weren't very good adaptations of the novel. Good luck out there @TheRedBook and please share, and improve on this with the other youtubers, and the entire cast and crew of The J. R. R. Tolkien trilogy and The Peter Jackson trilogy. The real reason for this also is to basically change many different peoples' opinions and views on this amazing work of literature especially since it's the 20th Anniversary of these films, because not all Christians view it as a masterpiece, because I am a huge fan of LOTR too, but also because I'm also one who is a Christian believer, and I have witnessed other Christians not viewing it as a masterpiece that tells the story of good vs evil, since it shown as something completely underrated since people on the internet want a lot of realism, when in reality it actually invented the high fantasy genre, defined the fantasy genre, and it even made John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself (who is of course the author of LOTR and the creator of Middle-earth) become what he is now known as the godfather or the father of modern fantasy that is of course now shown in both the 20th Century with his own books, and the 21st Century with the Peter Jackson adaptations. But also because the movies in my opinion destroy the stuff that Hollywood mainly shows in their films specifically the modern movies that are made today, even if these films are maybe sometimes considered to be not as good as their original work by Tolkien (especially involving around Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy), or if they are even usually considered to be Massive Hollywood, Blockbuster, Action & adventure movies, and also have really epic and really well crafted moments in them such as the large and huge amount of set pieces, the brilliant use practical effects, the incredible and awesome use computer generated effects when it was something made 20 years ago as well, large-scale warfare, six genres which is just everything that is ever put on the film director's bucket list in the three films such as action, adventure, romance, comedy, and horror that was just managed to be put altogether in a whole fantasy setting, and awesome character moments and awesome moments of really well-crafted character development in each of those three films as well. I would also really love your comparisons between the books and the movies and which one you think is the one that is considered to you to actually be better according to your specific opinion on that story.
Some wall of text there but I did read it. This kind of thing doesn't interest me at all. This is a channel for Tolkien, not adaptations of Tolkien :)
Sperged out there didn't you.
Bruh
I'm going to give these LOTR fan channels another chance. But, I swear, if any of you betrays Tolkien again by supporting that Rings of Power woke trash then I am gone for good.
We aren't a hive mind. Other channels can do as they please but I am only responsible for content I put on my channel and I made one Livestream to answer people's questions about the show. If that's still "supporting that Rings of Power woke trash" then 👉
If you’re looking for a channel dedicated to the exploration of the text over adaptations, then you won’t find a better one than this. You can happily delve deep into Tolkien without rung reminded of any irritations you have with other productions.
I’m not sure what exactly is woken about rings of power and even if it is woke, it’s biggest crime in my opinion is that it’s crap. Not sure why they brought an IP, then make up their own story.
Hard to beat steve
@@jamief1263 They bought an IP so they could make up their own woke stories and shove them in our faces... if you don't understand what wokeness is by now that's your problem.
Beautifully constructed and executed