We’ve been dealing with these problems for several years down here in Florida and it gets worse every year. I hiked into a campground a few months ago that I reserved their last open site. More than half of the sites remained empty for my entire stay. I like your check in or lose it idea.
Fees, refunds, and reservation windows vary by park. In Pictured Rocks, you’ll lose your reservation fee and first night’s camping fee. The window for reservations start at Jan 1st at 10 AM for the entire year’s season.
I’m not sure why you make Booz Allen out as the bad guy. They’re just a company that responded to the government’s Request for Proposal for a reservations system and their proposal was accepted. Trails and parks that have had overwhelming interest for hikers have had lottery systems in place for decades (e.g. JMT). The only difference there was no fee in the lottery. Booz Allen is not deciding to start a lottery so they can make more money. The individual parks are requesting a lottery option and they’re implementing it. Per contract, every transaction has a fee applied.
Not to be argumentative, but explain to me why we need a lottery. It's an unnecessary firewall between making a permit. Yes, it does make only Boos Allen money no matter who ordered it designed. Their was already a line waiting for reservations, this just creates a second line and another opportunity for fleece money from those in the line. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter I suspect the need for a lottery is out of fairness. I also suspect that you don’t pay twice, but once to enter the lottery and you either get the permit or you don’t. What do I mean by fairness? Fairness means that the permits don’t go to those IT hiking nerds with the best software solution to getting them into the system at the first available microsecond. Anyone interested in a permit applies in a large time window, and the permit holders are chosen randomly from the pool of applicants. Again, nothing new except that it is internet and fee based. The JMT has had a permit lottery in place for 15+ years.
Big brother. You should see what they have done to the pacific crest trail permit system and it's getting people hurt and putting search and rescue in danger.Now you have people that have never hiked a day in their lives starting sobo the first of june because it was the only permit they could get, a new hiker one hundred twenty five miles between roads with no escape trails up and down mts with river cossings and snow what could go wrong.
Booz Allen (BA) is the IT company. The NPS is the client. BA codes features and rules into the system based on the client’s stated requirements. The reason that there’s no auto-cancellation in place is because the NPS hasn’t requested it. We have to voice our opinions to the NPS. Hopefully the NPS will listen, consider, and agree with the logic in various suggestions, and then ask BA to implement the change.
I've been talking to the Park Service for 2 decades. They are deaf. In my opinion, they have scrapped their original mission. They just want the parks to be free enterprise, commercial, mixed corporate, Disney style theme parks. With real nasty food, I might add. Have you ever eaten at one Xanterra's restaurants? I refer to them as Xanterrible. Not wanting to sound like a complainer, but give me something to not complain about. I have stories, but that would take too long. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter given a limited budget for on-premise staff, I’d rather have that staff focused on things like land management and in-field education and patrolling rather than sitting behind a desk issuing permits for campsites and trails.
@@packtoter odd as it may sound, try writing letters to park superintendents. You should get a response back. Note that policy shifts often come with a public review period and an opportunity for public commentary prior to any implementation.
Much of that staff are seasonal, not paid well, and on a steep learning curve. But they always got the job done and managed the whole park that way for decades. Now we have what I would call absentee management in the labyrinth of park, concession, and off site reservation systems. The tail is now waging the dog. Your knowledge base sounds like you may connected to the Park system? No easy answers, but I hope in all the confusion the resource isn't abused. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter not connected with the park service. Just an IT guy who’s been involved with government contracts and their standards. I’ve also backpacked all over the continental US and as a result have a lot of experience with the various permit systems over the years. I do volunteer for the NCTA, maintain trail, and talk to USFS rangers and other land managers. I’ve also talked with the superintendent at PIRO, mainly about illegal use issues and other challenges they’ve had.
California just passed a policy for state park campsite reservations. I don’t know all the details but my understanding is that it includes things such as….if you are a no show on night 1 of a multi night reservation you lose the site, and, if you are a no show for 3 reservation you lose the right to reserve sites in the future. Showing up at a campground that is half empty but that says “full” really does suck.
It changes all the time and is applied different in different locations. Mostly is an entrance pass, half price camping for seniors, but that doesn't work any longer in places like Glacier backcountry. Also it is limited concession run campgrounds. Just more rules to study and learn. Keep Smilin'
We’ve been dealing with these problems for several years down here in Florida and it gets worse every year. I hiked into a campground a few months ago that I reserved their last open site. More than half of the sites remained empty for my entire stay. I like your check in or lose it idea.
Yes. Now convince the beaurucrats. Keep Smilin'
Fees, refunds, and reservation windows vary by park. In Pictured Rocks, you’ll lose your reservation fee and first night’s camping fee. The window for reservations start at Jan 1st at 10 AM for the entire year’s season.
Yes. Every system (there are many) have varying open dates, rules, refund policies, lotteries, etc. Put your money down, make your bets. Keep Smilin'
We're up against Reservation BOTs being used by 3rd party resellers of campsite reservations.
It's a zoo. The inmates are running the asylum. Keep Smilin'
I’m not sure why you make Booz Allen out as the bad guy. They’re just a company that responded to the government’s Request for Proposal for a reservations system and their proposal was accepted.
Trails and parks that have had overwhelming interest for hikers have had lottery systems in place for decades (e.g. JMT). The only difference there was no fee in the lottery.
Booz Allen is not deciding to start a lottery so they can make more money. The individual parks are requesting a lottery option and they’re implementing it. Per contract, every transaction has a fee applied.
Not to be argumentative, but explain to me why we need a lottery. It's an unnecessary firewall between making a permit. Yes, it does make only Boos Allen money no matter who ordered it designed. Their was already a line waiting for reservations, this just creates a second line and another opportunity for fleece money from those in the line. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter I suspect the need for a lottery is out of fairness. I also suspect that you don’t pay twice, but once to enter the lottery and you either get the permit or you don’t.
What do I mean by fairness? Fairness means that the permits don’t go to those IT hiking nerds with the best software solution to getting them into the system at the first available microsecond. Anyone interested in a permit applies in a large time window, and the permit holders are chosen randomly from the pool of applicants.
Again, nothing new except that it is internet and fee based. The JMT has had a permit lottery in place for 15+ years.
The world's population is increasing but the sum total IQ remains constant. 😉
Totally agree. Have to roll with the punches. Keep Smilin'
Big brother. You should see what they have done to the pacific crest trail permit system and it's getting people hurt and putting search and rescue in danger.Now you have people that have never hiked a day in their lives starting sobo the first of june because it was the only permit they could get, a new hiker one hundred twenty five miles between roads with no escape trails up and down mts with river cossings and snow what could go wrong.
Booz Allen (BA) is the IT company. The NPS is the client. BA codes features and rules into the system based on the client’s stated requirements.
The reason that there’s no auto-cancellation in place is because the NPS hasn’t requested it.
We have to voice our opinions to the NPS. Hopefully the NPS will listen, consider, and agree with the logic in various suggestions, and then ask BA to implement the change.
I've been talking to the Park Service for 2 decades. They are deaf. In my opinion, they have scrapped their original mission. They just want the parks to be free enterprise, commercial, mixed corporate, Disney style theme parks. With real nasty food, I might add. Have you ever eaten at one Xanterra's restaurants? I refer to them as Xanterrible. Not wanting to sound like a complainer, but give me something to not complain about. I have stories, but that would take too long. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter given a limited budget for on-premise staff, I’d rather have that staff focused on things like land management and in-field education and patrolling rather than sitting behind a desk issuing permits for campsites and trails.
@@packtoter odd as it may sound, try writing letters to park superintendents. You should get a response back.
Note that policy shifts often come with a public review period and an opportunity for public commentary prior to any implementation.
Much of that staff are seasonal, not paid well, and on a steep learning curve. But they always got the job done and managed the whole park that way for decades. Now we have what I would call absentee management in the labyrinth of park, concession, and off site reservation systems. The tail is now waging the dog. Your knowledge base sounds like you may connected to the Park system?
No easy answers, but I hope in all the confusion the resource isn't abused. Keep Smilin'
@@packtoter not connected with the park service. Just an IT guy who’s been involved with government contracts and their standards. I’ve also backpacked all over the continental US and as a result have a lot of experience with the various permit systems over the years. I do volunteer for the NCTA, maintain trail, and talk to USFS rangers and other land managers. I’ve also talked with the superintendent at PIRO, mainly about illegal use issues and other challenges they’ve had.
California just passed a policy for state park campsite reservations. I don’t know all the details but my understanding is that it includes things such as….if you are a no show on night 1 of a multi night reservation you lose the site, and, if you are a no show for 3 reservation you lose the right to reserve sites in the future. Showing up at a campground that is half empty but that says “full” really does suck.
Good plan. Works for me. Thanks. Keep Smilin'
Does the America the Beautiful pass make things easier?
It changes all the time and is applied different in different locations. Mostly is an entrance pass, half price camping for seniors, but that doesn't work any longer in places like Glacier backcountry. Also it is limited concession run campgrounds. Just more rules to study and learn. Keep Smilin'