DEFRA's lead ammo ban blunder
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- The Westminster government’s new, heavy handed approach to banning lead pellets and bullets will be a disaster for rimfire and airgun shooting. That’s the conclusion of the National Smallbore Rifle Association, GB governing body for disciplines using this ammunition, many of which are Olympic sports
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DEFRA meeting:
"We must ban water companies from dumping millions of tonnes of sewage into UK rivers 400,000 times a year."
"That's too difficult"
"How about banning lead shot?"
"It's not going to much difference to the environment, but it sounds good to the general public."
Exactly DW, this is picking the low hanging fruit.
The "shooting organizations" are useless, they bend over and part their a*se cheeks at the first glance from government. All this is about is making shooting more expensive, nothing more nothing less. It plays well to the middle class women voters who can't get enough virtue signalling.
This is pure and simple anti gun propaganda. If you can't get the numbers to ban guns then make the ammunition useless and nobody will want to use a gun.
And I've no idea why sewage dumping is allowed ever, why is there even a physical connection between the raw sewage an the rivers?
Two wrongs make a right do they?
I think the major line is: its about banning shooting, not shooting with lead.
Isnt that the truth!
Nailed it matey.
Agree It's all about banning shooting. Getting guns out of people's hands. Nothing else.
It's a UN and WEF agenda to get people off country sports. They want all people living in pod in urban areas and easing bugs. People better wake the F up RIGHT NOW.
That's the bottom line Dom.
It is a total bloody nonsense really. The old battle fields of World War One are massively contaminated with lead and steel. So much so that bullets and shrapnel can be found on the surface to this day. This has been there for over one hundred years with both animals grazing the grass for beef, milking, Grapes for wine as well as comprehensively grown arable crops, Wheat, Barley, Oil Seed Rape, and Potatoes, to name but a few.
The shooting organisations have beaten their own backsides with a stick to jump into line with, "The Narrative".
Why the hell has no one else suggested the above?
I have been shooting and eating shot game since Adam was a lad.
No doubt about it. This is definitely an eventual ban through the back door.
As we have seen in recent times, suggestive talk, and heavily influenced inaccuracies, if the circumstances have to fit, rather than the actual evidence.
I'm shocked at how weak BASSC response to this has been. Their response was so late, they didn't release their findings to the public soon enough and they seem to have thrown rimfire users under the bus.
At least the NSRA seems to be fighting this a little harder. It's just a gun ban without banning guns.
no need to be shocked ...it was always a primary objective of bsac/sic
Basc are supporting the ban...
I’m not surprised. BASC are an ineffective disgrace and have been for years
These morons need to realise it's just another plan to make people give shooting up completely and they need to fight every little restriction that comes in.
Just like car ownership the government don't want you to have a car so they will make every little aspect of ownership so difficult, expensive or inconvenient as they possibly can so you choose to give it up or can't afford to keep it.
Road tax goes up while road space disappears to bus and cycle lanes. Highway code changes, ulez zones, 15-minute cities with traffic gates, extortionist fuel prices and tax.
If the government don't want you to have something and they can't bann it because they themselves still want to own it they will make ownership as difficult as possible so you give it up giving you the illusion it was your choice.
BASC has always been it's own private entity for its own elite members only.
But will gladly take other people's money under false pretences.
Yes the NSRA has always taken a justifiable stance for ALL shooters in UK for longer than I've been alive, well over 60 years now.
Norway they tested ranges that had been millitary used since the 1600s, no pollution of lead into waters found at all.
Because non of this bullshit is about heath.
Do you have a link to that study or a title, year etc? Sounds helpful in debates!
I will try to dig it up,when sifting through the anti lead links or modified reports , similarity to find anti lead and pro rewilding reports by same people.
@@MrPh30 Thx a lot!
Theres absolutely no justified reason to ban use of lead ammunition on any range with suitable backstops. Period. I honestly don't know why BASC just don't just simply say "No".
If they are using H+S COSHH rules to ban lead in ranges and clubs then they need to do the same with Police and Army training ranges as COSHH applies to workplaces.
You are one hundred percent bang on with that commitment.No they will not do anything about that.
The ban does not affect the military or other 'forces'. It has fook all to do with health. Just a backdoor ban on 'weapons' by the arsewipes in charge.
Thats right. Enough of these double standards, if we are to be held accountable for nearly untraceable amounts of toxins; our governments ought to be held accountable for their mass dumping of toxins.
They are not using existing rules this is about new legislation … blimey ok your a H&S officer but cmon the world has a lot more to it than that
@@Top_Shots_Photography I'm not a H&S officer I used to be a teacher in wood and metal workshops, it's not even about H&S it's about devious misrepresentation being used to control normal people. If they want to use the guise of H&S then they need to apply it without caveat or all H&S law becomes thrown out in the same bathwater.
This lead ban is ridiculous when probably 80% of domestic water supply pipes in this country are made of lead. Replace the lead pipes then we can talk about alternative ammunition, i think that's fair.
80%? Really? Sources?
@@mickleblade It's against UA-cam TOS to link sources that reside out of youtube (which is stupid) but it doesn't surprise me as many places used to use lead pipes and stuff up until not all too long ago.
@@rabidskylark2065 I'd treat 80% as a made up number until a source is given.
@@mickleblade you want some info here is the official government estimate look it up if you want they state around 8.9 million homes are on or have lead pipe supplies internally and externally and the cost to replace all lead pipe for water would be an estimated £8-10bn researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP97-65/RP97-65.pdf
All old Victorian housing has lead pipes.
There saying its no accurate enough for target shooting in my eyes its not good enough for live quarry then
Back door to getting rid of guns
Exactly right, it has nothing to do with health.
Removing guns is good for public health.
@Gangster88232 the legally ones arnt its all the illegal ones that are bad
And getting rid of legal ones will not stop all the low lifes getting them.
@@Gangster88232 Tell that to 500.000-3.000.000 People each year that use their weapons defensively in the US and thus not become victims of criminals or worse, get killed.
@8asw8 in America yes but not in the uk we have gun laws America doesn't have much of a gun law
As an Australian hunter and target shooter I can’t believe the UK sporting body just rolled over and agreed to that rubbish
It's always a retreat with regards to rights, we never take back rights we lose.
BASC didn't roll over, they actively pushed for the ban. Check out " country sports TV " on youtube, Ian Summerell explains it well
@@gw6171 how have they pushed for a ban? Clearly havnt listened to what’s been said. Basc are fighting a ban, they are pushing for a transition to avoid a ban. If this is a shock for you, then you’ve been living under a rock for 30 years. This has been happening for decades. New evidence shows lead is a toxin, end of, even if you and I have eaten it for out entire lives, it’s a toxin. Causes issues within foetuses and young children, causes problems within the body’s cells and supports the chance of cancer. It’s been taken out of paint, for 20 years in London new builds are being put in with pvc water pipes, it’s been banned for fishing.
Too many rich game shooters bud sod everyone else it's dire in the UK stupidity and emotion over science and common sense!!!!!
Because they're gutless and only interested in their game shooting and f###k every other shooting sport!
Here in Sweden we wont even be allowed to have lead shotgun shells in our pocket whitin 100m from water wich means just about all of Sweden! Some people wont even be allowed to have shots in their homes..
It's totally insane!
Always the socialists who don't want you having *any* guns.
What do they usually do shortly afterwards?
Are lead pipes and solder joints in water pipes allowed?
I'm not a shooter and so this proposed legislation will not affect me in the slightest. However, I am a concerned citizen that sees this as yet another infringement on personal liberty. I cannot believe a Conservative government would do this to what must be a sizeable chunk of their support base. Don't forget the local elections are in May so ask candidates directly what they think and then vote accordingly. Take no action and you'll just get shafted.
Thanks
They are not conservatives
BASC as usual are as useful as a chocolate tea pot. They will never see another penny from me.
Yes...thousands of pounds on hunting clothes and a plumb in the mouth is all they seem to be concerned with!!
That’s probably a good thing they probably dint want you anyway
@@Top_Shots_Photography Agreed they hate the working class. Just happy to milk us for our membership and jolly to the thick witted toffs.
@@horacerumpole9263 no I said you not the working class, if your views are not aligned with protecting shooting for the future the they won’t want you as a member. If you had taken the time to speak to the BASC staff you’ll see that they are grounded grass roots shooters … toddle pip
@@Top_Shots_Photography "if your views are not aligned with protecting shooting for the future"
you misspelled "Selling hunting and shooting out in premature over-obediance to nonsense laws."
What better way to destroy shooting as a sport than to ban the best material for the ammo. A lead ban affects everything from target air pistol to full bore rifle shooting, from target shooting to hunting and pest control.
BASC should hang its head in shame at the uncountable number of animals that will suffer due to their involvement in supporting and promoting the lead ban. The vastly higher number of wounded animal caused by the use of steel shot for hunting and pest control. Wounded with steel shot that will rust and fester. Or waster courses damaged by rusting steel shot depleting the oxygen in the water or poisoning the lower levels of an eco system. And the oils used to coat and protect the steel shot from rusting getting into wounds and water.
BASC's whole hearted support and involvement in promoting the lead ban is the reason I cancelled my membership of over 20 years with BASC.
The lead ban has been so poorly thought through that it can only be due to ulterior motives.
The Netherlands are reversing a ban on lead for shooting as vastly higher levels of damage caused by alternatives is being found and recorded.
Lead is not the best material, shooting orgs (BASC) are pushing back against all target shooting and air guns non lead shot works very well, large calibre rifle works very well in copper works needs to be done in small calibre
@@Top_Shots_Photography
"Lead is not the best material,"
Yeah Uranium would be better unfortunately it is radioactive. Else, I dont see a better Material anywhere. Do you?
" shooting orgs (BASC) are pushing back against all target shooting and air guns non lead shot works very well,"
It doesnt. You have to use larger diameter shot for a reason. It is subpar ammo legislatively forced down our throat because of laughably bad "science" and useful idiots like you, that in their mania to be "progressive" and "modern" act like the emperor in the "emperors new clothes". You just whitewash shitty ammo to feel superior to others and avoid conflict without seeing the risk that not engaging in that conflict represents to your stated goal (preserving shooting and hunting).
"large calibre rifle works very well in copper"
dont make me laugh. I have shot lead free and I went back to bonded lead ammo. Fast. It "works" if you only compare the most modern lead free bullets with antiquated lead ammo and even then you really have to stretch the definition of "works just as well" as in the Gremse study a few years back.
" works needs to be done in small calibre"
Or just leave us alone with bad science and a change in ammo that does nothing for nature or healthcare.
@@Top_Shots_Photography Check out the toxicity of copper. Plumbers and electricians know the dangers of copper splinters. Lead pipes installed by the Romans are still in use, lead roofs that are hundreds of years old are still in place. Lead does not dissolve in water. Lead is only really dangerous if you breath the fumes from molten lead. Lead bullets are left in people because taking them out can be more dangerous. I knew a man who was shot by himself in his arm with a shotgun when he was in his 30's. The xrays he loved to show off showed his whole arm full of No' 6 shot. He lived into his 90's with no sign of lead poisoning.
Lead is the best material for shooting. It is soft enough to engage rifleing without damaging the rifleing, is soft enough to expand without fragmenting and spreading in meat. Is dense enough to retain energy when shot. Copper can do most if not all of this but is not as good at any of it as lead
@@gw6171 there is no issue with lead in water that is explained in the HSE consultation, as you say there is no issue whe lead is in your body ie if shot. It’s when you eat it your liver breaks it down and it goes into your blood. Your right copper is not as malleable as lead and is more dense. The trouble is lead fragmentation happens even with soft nose bullets and it even worse with ballistic tips. This does not occur when using copper. Therefore copper projected faster and lighter than the lead equivalent means it performs very well and good enough for the job intended.. and no one is eating lead
@@Top_Shots_Photography Check out the danger of ingested copper. The survey in Norway, I think, which tested people for ingested lead levels. Found rural people who ate vastly higher amounts of shot game, had lower levels of lead then urban people. Lead fumes from burnt fuel, lead based paint etc, puts far more lead into the body that ingested lead. Breathing molten lead fumes form lead casting, soldering or lead welding is the most dangerous form. Handling solid lead is way less dangerous. The danger comes from not wearing gloves or not washing hands properly after handling lead.
Authoritarian Government
They always have been.
About to learn a lesson
When is defra going to remove all the lead piping in older towns and cities. The ones supplying drinking water.
Having shot some days with steel this year, not impressed.
Just out of interest have any of the shooting associations made any FOI requests from the H&S exec and the ministry of health regarding the number of lead poisoning and related illness reported in the last 10 years?
No, because it is not about health.
@@welditmick that's the justification they are using, "...there are no healthy levels of lead in the human body..."
Don't be daft!actual proof that no one in the UK is recorded as dying through lead shot ingestion.Nothing to do with environment or health it's anti shooting simple.
@@tonyashton780 I'm not being daft Tony, I know what a rhetorical question is. 🤨
Do you red coats even have a foia law?
you stand more chance of lead poisoning from old lead water pipes and joins than shot and bullets, what about roof leading getting in to the watercourse???
yep given that a gov report on that stated that 8.9 million homes still have lead water piping in the building or as part of the external inflow and there are 27 million homes in teh uk that means about 30-40%
And what are they doing about the lead water pipes still in use ?
I've been shooting now for 55yrs ,when I was a kid we kept the pellets in our mouths because it was easier to reload when we used to spit it was grey I presume we must have swallowed some,I've swallowed shotgun pellets that were in the meat it ends up in the toilet ,people who have been shot ,the doctors lonly remove pellets if they are near any vital organs,so if doctors leave it in you then it can't be that bad,I've cut pigeon open that had beeñ shot before and it had calcified and that bird would have lived all it's natural life,we got to stand up to the government,, that's why we joined shooting associations ,👍
Was just Hanna say that... Wen shooting I always kept a few in my mouth all the time... Grey spit grey fingers. Lead shot wen fishing an biting them on the line an I'm freaking fine
@@foxxy46213 I think if we went swimming we would have sunk 😂
@@gordonemery6949 true that.. I grew up in the 80s mum smoked while pregnant no seat belts drank from hoses ate dirt an bugs for shits an giggles and probably ate lead paint an all the other bad things a parent would be crucified for now an I'm perfectly healthy an infact very rarely get Ill or get infections my immune system is literally a tank had gangrene 2x an should of lost a finger an a toe too it... Toe was that bad the nurse couldn't take the smell an noped out an I had to take my own dressing off at age 14... Beat that shit too only lost the tip off my toe so small you can't even tell. They just cut off the bad bit on my finger hoping it wouldn't spread an healed just fine... Think we're just built different to today's wimps
@@foxxy46213 too right,we had catapults not PS5s ,got drunk at 13 happy days👍
@@gordonemery6949 oh yeah.. my mum had so many black widows an Diablo catapults.. gat guns an g10 repeaters. I also had from what I've seen a very rare gat gun rifle I've never ever seen another all I her stash box like a little armoury lol
I have been passionate about shooting my whole life. I am feeling really nervous about what the future holds for us. I have a significant amount of money tied up in reloading gear and have no idea what is going to be available to reload in the future - either traditional or new components. I would really like to shoot more competitions, do more practical and precision but at the moment I won't spend another penny on gear or shooting associations until there is some certainty. As others have said, this really does feel like a ban via the back door. No one can shoot if there is no suitable ammunition. I used to shoot 50 + rounds every time I sat down at a target, now I will limit myself to 10 as I just can not afford it and don't know when or where I will get the next load of components from.
I really am thinking about giving it all up.
That's kinda the idea from uk regulators - that you give it up.
Don't give up, as Prancer 180 says, that's what 'they' want.
do you "make" your own ammo?
Apart from trying to find your spent lead, maybe a friendly approach to your local tyre centre could find you a source?
Give up! Exactly what they want!
Bruv. There is atleast 200lbs of lead in your god damn house right now.
For god sakes go look at the top of your car battery.
Lead-acid.
You can neutralize the sulfuric acid with baking soda and then discharge the plating with Epson salt and distilled water.
Dry it for a week.
Use ppe and thick gloves to cut the top off the battery.
Bam you have atleast 40 lbs of lead.
Pretty freaking easy to make a mold from some old brass and a chunk of steel thats rounded or even two damn measuring spoons you use in your kitchen.
Make a kiln with some propane and an air compressor and what do you have?
Molten lead and a mold to pour it into. Wait till it cools. File then sand smooth and you have your lead projectile.
When the desire is, end all firearms in the hands of the public, what do you expect.
You finally said it - it's about banning shooting, period - NOT lead issues!
I’m sorry to say I don’t swallow this lead ban thing for one minute. Not only have you to take into account what kills the animal or bird more humanely, but I’ve had a lead pellet in my jaw for 40 years now and I’ve had no side effects also people continue to drink water from lead mains water pipes. !!!
Have had a pellet in my foot for 30 years
@@garyturner6194 Wouldn’t join BASC at any price now mate.👍
@William Tell Dream on,this 22 pellet has been in my neck for 40 years. There’s far worse things in this environment killing people and wildlife.
Where is the evidence that people are getting poisoning from eating game shot with lead people have been eating it for years.
And as for lead alternatives have tried a few in my 6.5x55 and there no good and very expensive.
There is nothing thats got the weight of lead
@William Tell "There's oodles of evidence to show lead is a serious issue for the environment and propels health"
How much of that is sound science? How much of that is "Stephen Harris science", meaning ideological rubbish and skewed data?
I really hate hypocrisy so yet another question, are they banning all grazing on MoD firing ranges including deer?
I don’t recall the war in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan affecting the supply or cost of ammunition (or fuel) this is just another convenient excuse for banging the price of everything up and making appeasing noises to environmentalists. Once they’ve managed to ban shooting, and they will, they will then target another minority group.
On top of this all target shooting is done against a back stop so no ammunition is able to be harmful in any way.
It is reassuring to know, however, that criminals won’t be able to shoot us with toxic bullets from their illegally owned guns..
Luv the idea of an environmentally biased robber using lead-free ammo tho.
So as a compensative factor are they going to increase the lb/' on unlicensed airguns to get over the drop in pellet mass?
I doubt it.
No, I imagine not. But the foot pound muzzle energy is weight of projectyle multiplied by muzzle velocity, so just increase the power of the gun for the same muzzlle energy with a lighter pellet……that being said copper pellets suck
😂😂😂dont be silly they dont want us to have any form of "gun" in the uk they only want criminals and the government to have firearms
@@alexanderoddy4916 try brass they have been used for a long time in high caliber gun rounds
@@billhanson4921 my concern with brass is it may damage the barrel as brass is considerably harder than lead or copper
How many homes in the UK still provided with water coming through lead pipes!
A few and you are being changed ?
80%
@@redauwg911 and getting less and less each year.. hence houses now being built with poly ..
@@redauwg911 great news, my point is it’s not lead…
Lead piping was banned in 1970. From 1960 onwards upto the ban fewer and fewer houses were built with lead, with copper being used instead, now the trend is plastic.
Sarcasm: "But basc said they wouldn't allow it!"
I have been an airgunner for over 45 years and i have tried most if not all of the lead alternatives, and i can say here and now THEY DO NOT WORK! They are inaccurate, power levels were all over the place and some sent my rifle over the 12 ft/lbs limit, also the damage to rifling will result in even more inconsistencies and accuracy will be a thing of the past. Lead is the only medium that works in an air rifle , all the rest are garbage.
Its a roundabout way to decimate shooting. They know there are no viable alternatives.
Welcome to their utopia.
I suspect that gold would work even better than lead, soft and dense.
Sorry, but exactly how many people have died/been adversely affected by this lead poisoning?
Basc are as much use as a chocolate tea pot
They did the same thing here in California in the US. It changed hunting quite dramatically.
As a general rule in anything: Dont be California! If they are doing it, it probably is a mistake!
@@8asw8 Boy howdy, we’ve got a bunch of nut jobs running the state.
@@maxmccain8950 And it used to be such a nice place! You guys once elected Reagan. But now you have absolute cretins like Newsom.
@@8asw8 How true. The crazies are running the looney bin.
Only for hunting in California,
In UK it is all outdoor uses!
Wait and see , it will be aluminum or steel for rim fire .They will then say new safety measures have to be put in place for richochets , and then they will ban semi autos in 22 rim fire as it creates greater penertration on target /has to be single shot , and or banned as it travels through the animal in humanely .Or , bad for the planet producing steel. For shooting with dwindling resources .
papa from America. question: how many of us bird, rabbit, squirrel hunters do you personally know died from lead or steel shot from eating game shot with shotguns. in my 62 years and46 years hunting never.papa says hunt safe
Read the science - and you may be surprised that it’s 1000s. It causes organ failure you dint just drop dead 🤯
I predict shops and people stocking up while the good stuff is still available.
Banning lead pellets will have no noteworthy effect on the environment but you know, it's "good" woke politics.
AKA When a political agenda and PR are more important then reality.
Viable alternatives. That’s the big question. The shooting sports is worth £2.4 billion to the uk economy. The shooting community need to get together and fight this as as a community. Stop being divided and pull together or die
3d print a mould for making new ones I guess. Im guessing you can melt any recovered ones down if they are lead. Quite easily. Use a target that retains the pellets and just recycle them.
Lead is part and parcel with guns. Are there legitimate health concerns? Yes, however, you let the camel get its nose in the tent on this one. Here in the U.S., there has been an effort to mandate steel and bismuth shot for waterfowl hunting and that represents an imposition but doesn’t abolish the sport. In California though, the move has been towards an outright ban on lead ammo for all conceivable purposes. The politicians know what they’re after, they’re rabidly anti-gun.
All the ranges I have attended recover and recycle the lead bullets and the brass cases.
To be honest, depleted uranium has better density. And i bet theres no rules against using that in your local range's bylaws.
I wonder how lead-free translates to smaller calibres of airgun- .177 for example? Will we see a move to larger calibres as shooters seek the accuracy they require?
That’s what I thought 👍
I wonder if tin/copper alloy will work for air rifle pellets maybe with some zinc.
Electrical solder has already changed from 60pb/40sn to 97sn/3cu
A place where I hunt I has some particular wants and I use flat head tin/bismuth .177 @~1k fps from a PCP for pigeon/Eurasian Collared dove and it does a number on them. Domed lead for head shooting rabbit though. Bare lead domed for springer and copper washed domed lead for shrouded PCP. Definitely need to keep min/max pellet weights in mind with the lead free stuff for springers and keeping subsonic of course since they run a bit light. Domed lead penetrates better on rabbit heads and doesn't leave lead bits like high speed HP or expander tip lead does. This is the type of thing that's too nuanced for any legislation and really should just be internal guidance. The lead-free thing on the pigde/dove made sense as there's be a raptor on occasion coming in and snagging one before I got to it.
It would be good if all olympic competitors transitioned to non toxic. The UK government should lobby the IOC for this to be accelerated.
As a hunter and food producer I can't see lead being practically removed from the environment unless there is a full ban on lead.
It's what happens when our MP's live in Islington and think that listening to the Archers makes them experts on rural matters.
I’m in the good old USA. I’m almost 56yrs old. Been shooting for 50yrs thx to my grandfather. Lead ain’t gonna matter unless you eating it. 🤦🏻♂️
Its not new ............... the use of lead shot was banned in Fishing in 1986 and there was much much better case for NOT banning it then, than there is for shooting. Someone shooting a shotgun and missing puts a hell of lot more lead shot into the environment than a few guys fishing and removing the shot and putting it back in theri box. But did they take any notice? no, of course they didn't and the same will happen with shooting, they will do what the hell they want despite all the fuss and objections
I'd recommend switching to an antimony, cadmium and arsenic alloy, since they're worried about lead being toxic, might as well give them something to actually be concerned about.
Perhaps a depleted uranium alloy?
So what are they doing in Europe. Are the proposals the same, or are we making things worse for ourselves as usual. My pet theory is that the Powers That Be makes rules and regulations worse because it makes them feel superior to "Johnny Foreigner" As for the lead ban being devastating to shooting sports I was under the impression that this is the whole idea.
I had not heard of this development but it is not the first time that the government have attacked honest firearm owners to placate the protest movements. Rather ironic that the previous attack on honest shooters were by a prime minister with a hell of a lot of blood on his hands.
I cannot speak for the field sports enthusiasts as my sport was target shooting, preferably long range. I did have a .22 rifle and .22 pistol both of which fired .22" LR cartridges with lead bullets, but it was normal to recover the lead from the sand in the butts after a season of shooting.
My main sport, however was full bore rifle with full metal jacketed bullets and similarly with my pistols. I used to use lead bullets but barrel fouling led me to change to jacketed soft points or Fully jacketed. The cores were still lead, though.
Perhaps Defra might prefer depleted uranium?
I think from an animal
Welfare perspective we need more time. Copper projectiles for deer are showing mixed results but some common disadvantages compared to lead alternatives and steel is just not up to the job on any well feathered bird, ducks etc. more pricked birds on shoots and more followed up deer. Let’s make the transition when it’s right and the entire chain from supply to chamber is ready.
We switched to non-lead for waterfowl years ago in the US and it made no serious change. Steel, bismuth-tin, and tungsten are all available and allowed.
@@tritech and expensive trash
@@ricm3820 I think it’s the small
Species that are the bigger problem. Muntjac and Chinese water deer with minimal depth and density to promote expansion. Bullets pencilling through have made neck shooting for meat retention difficult and the lack of percussion damage in the cavity has inevitably lead to deer running on, ultimately expiring but running on: this is an issue in heavy cover for any stalker without thermal or a good dog.
@@tritech from many days loading on ducks, pheasant and partridge I have seen mixed results. Pricked birds are definitely up, meaning they are not being killed cleanly. A team of 20 something pickers up will confirm this. The other question is what is driving the change? What’s the narrative? Non toxic loads are still toxic! Copper is poisonous, hence is being called lead free now in the uk. I see no need for the entire debacle.
@@ricm3820 Used lead free for a short time and was appalled by the pisspoor performance.
So what do we use instead? Depleted Uranium? Harsh language!
Steel and copper
They are threatening to do the same in Germany. I've been told it's not such a big problem with shotguns shells and hunting rounds. But small bore target shooting would end. I have tried lead free ,22 rimfire totally inaccurate.
On another note it's interesting how lead shot used to be made. Molten lead was poured down a tall tower. As it fell it formed a perfect sphere and cooled. It was then caught in a water trough.
We have been using lead before the first guns were used Romans used lead sling shot ammo.
And for no safe amount of lead in the human body. How many people are walking around with bullets in them? That are having no issues with lead. I have had lead in me for over 37 years.
I regularly eat game shot with lead ammo and have done, like many people for many years. I really doubt the risk posed is that high - it is so easy to find shot in the meat. As for venison, no body wants to eat the meat damaged by the bullet and I always cut it out of my carcasses so there is virtually no risk of ingesting any lead.
Same government that says it's OK to dump untreated sewerage anyway?
So they are going to ban army ammo as well .
If lead is so harmful,why are most houses plumbing from mains water pipes made of lead? Seems to be another do as we say not as we do
Steel shot sucks because it's insufficiently dense, doesn't deform, and chews up barrels (and chokes). Once lead gets phased out, wait until you see the cost of bismuth shot! Here in the US (specifically New York), we can't use lead shot for waterfowl. Bismuth shot is the best due to density. It's also 3X the cost of lead. Fun times. At least we can use lead ammunition for 17HMR, various 22 caliber loads, and airguns.
just how many people in the UK are suffering from lead poisoning?
On an air gun practice session I used 50. 77 pellets in 3 hours. That's not even 1 shot round... Get it sorted!!
I assume this will not affect the military's ability to pump tons of lead into the environment at ranges and exercises, let alone the development of plastic ammo belts, which allow them to desposit plastic directly into the environment.
How about banning all lead water pipes first ?
There is no need to ban lead on ranges at all, it's contained and recycled. The problem with banning lead for pest control is accuracy and the result will be more suffering for the animals and birds being culled, and a significant increase in the cost of food production at a time when food prices are going through the roof.
If they wanted to see the change to lead then they should remove VAT from non-lead ammo.
It's a mess
To get copper bullets shooting straighter try faster twists for the longer bullets.
Thats not gonna be a problem..
We banned lead bullets in denmark many many years ago without a problem we have many good ol shooters in denmark..
You don't have a reasonable replacement for lead, and switching to steel would ruin the guns. Why are you doing this, it sounds sooo dumb.
Goal is to ban guns. But because gun humpers want guns you have to be clever.
The Olympics will get really interesting when countries without lead bans compete along side countries that do.
Its a way to ban shooting without banning shooting.
Im an air rifle target shooter.
Lead free pellets are 4x to 8x the price of lead and they are garbage.
Might as well score based on a dice roll.
Another nail in the Tories coffin.
There is a reason why people don't use iron for shooting! May I suggest depleted Uranium?
lead air pellets are extremely accurate compared to tin lead mix
Replacing lead with steel, what's that going to for your rifling and barrel.
Since it’s about banning lead exposure will they also ban dark chocolate which contains lead?
Then use pure gold or depleted uranium. Both commercially available and easy to obtain.
So when is all the lead in plumbing be removed? It should only cost a few trillion pounds and more lead is ingested from plumbing pipes than shooting lead.
Sadly this is the progression. There’s always one more restriction, one more compromise that removes something. And it’s not unique to The UK by a long shot.
I'm no expert . . but lead free pipe solder has been around for 50 years. . .it's not "heavy" like lead. . . but would a 22 long rifle round made with this still work ?. . . unless there is some kind of friction induced barrel fouling . . .and as for 177 pellet rifles, I prefer the older Crosman 1377 with a magnetic bolt, that would hold steel BB's over the new 1377's for lead pellet only . . steel BB's have better penetration and accuracy is relative. . . yes. . pellets have better rifling traction that BBs rattling down a barrel. . . But I never thought it was so bad.
What is Covid-19?
An IQ test
A PLANdemic
@@daibhidhSCO What a load of bollox. You'r easily fooled.
@@daibhidhSCO 99% survival rate
@@jamieT374 Cold or Flu?
As a non-shooter, I would have thought for target shooting, the lead can, and is, recovered from the range butts surely? For hunting use, there may be valid point, but accuracy for humane killing is also important surely.
You are correct on both points. Both rifle ranges and some clay grounds collect their lead and sell it. Accuracy is paramount. / Charlie
Shotguns shoot 6000 tons of lead compared to airguns and small bore rifles who shoot 14 tons so they should be exempt in my veiw .
It hasnt been the material ammunition has been overwhelming made from since the inception of firearms for no reason 🤷♂️
Lead used in target shooting (.22LR and pellets ) is 99% recoverable and recyclable with the correct range setup. So should be exempt.
What do we have to do to stop then government doing anything?
You're not allowed to use lead for waterfowl in most places and I think that's a sensible, fair rule.
Not being allowed to use lead for popping clays or putting holes on paper is stupid.
This ban had serious issues from the moment it was announced. Typical BASC to leave until 5 minutes before midnight to realise that people with rimfires airguns and
Just another way of banning firearms through the back door. Rimfire & air weapons are where the first disciplines for new shooters to enter the sport by banning this it starves the sport of new members starting their journey into shooting sports in general . Sneaky tactics as usual.
That's exactly what I thought ,they are doing the same with Motorcycles with the upcoming ban on 50cc to 125 cc bikes they even cut short the so called "public consultation"
We need to start pushing back more on these unsupported and unwanted legislations
Nu Toxic pellets and small bore rounds are not even accurate enough for Vermont shooting
.17HMR TNT Green and Hornady NTX blow them up just fine. Same for .223 which has those and Barnes Varmint grenade bullets.
I'm talking about 22lr. 22mag and 17hmr good rounds but to much noise and I shoot 223 for fox but then I don't mind the noise.
We banned it in 1996 as the first country in the world..
and this crap has been tried before and still found to be much ado about nothing. but now they can make it harder to teach people to shoot and easier to rule.
thank God for Mr. Luty and his proof that an Englishman and his shed can still fight back.
Does this apply for air rifles too?
Yes. Will ruin accuracy as no viable alternatives.
Ban by the backdoor.
@@blueanodized maybe copper slugs would be as accurate?
Wasn't the EU trying to do the same thing? I remember reading about it on a Czech page. What ever happened to that project?
It's about control. Nothing to do with safety.
I've just eaten pheasant for my lunch. No ill effects yet!
If this is designed to gather support...don't shoot Bambi.
Next! Zink is toxic. Silver is too expensive. Copper should be used only for wire. Bismuth is toxic. So, what other left handed way can be foisted off as a ban on guns?
The survey should of only included those involved in the SHOOTING INDUSTRY, not governments bodies or general public. It would be the same as asking an ice cream maker should we ban condoms at old folks homes.
A well made and informative video. 👏
There shouldn’t be a ban at all, it is nowhere near as harmful as they say, it just isn’t an issue apart from wildfowling
This country used to be proud of our firearms manufacturing, now we seem hell bent on preventing our youngsters from responsible respectful shooting. We actively dissuade any training or innovation, making shooting seem antisocial and something that must be stopped. Be it from knee-jerk legislation from an ill-informed public and media, whipped into a frenzy, demanding a quick fix. We all know this is yet another nail that will probably finally finish our sports. Judging from our past experience of defending our freedoms and liberties, it looks like shooting in this country faces extinction.
Check out Country Sports TV Ian Summerell explains the lead ban and BASC's involvement.
Nope … he’s mental
@@Top_Shots_Photography In your opinion, Which going by your posts, isnt worth much. Be open to other opinions but do your research to prove them wrong. Before calling them "mental"
@@gw6171 I have done an immense amount of research, testing and diagnosis. Reading others statements on here they clearly have not and will continue to ignore the evidence that lays before them. Lead is gone that’s a fact now how we choose to move away is up to us but ignoring the facts of lead makes us look shameful and as a shooting man of many years it’s embarrassing
@@Top_Shots_Photography Having spent 40 years in construction with several NEBOSH qualifications, including environmental qualifications. I to have done lots of research, I listen to others opinions. Then check and research their sources to debunk or confirm their information. I never just listen and believe.
Many people can look at he same data and come to many different conclusions. That is why science is never settled or set in stone.
I believe the lead ban is more about certain peoples views and beliefs than truly science led.
"I believe lead is bad for fish, and I care about fish, so ban lead shot over water" ignoring the data on steel and tungsten shot being more dangerous for the environment.
"I believe lead shot is bad for raptors and birds, so bad lead for game shooting" While ignoring that alternatives are worse for the greater environment. And alternatives to lead will lead to far more wounded birds and an increase in animal suffering.
Not forgetting the anti shooting lot who know banning lead will seriously affect all shooting, from air pistol target shooting to full bore target shooting to game and pest control.
@@gw6171 likewise and I am always open to debate, after all it’s healthy to challenge and be challenged as in many cases views will differ because of it. I’ve not seen any further suffering due to ammunition and I have been shooting steel shot and copper ammunition for deer for years . Much of the wounded birds I believe are due to the user and this is based in a misinterpretation of range and shooting beyond their own ability. I know that if I use steel shot at the right ranges the birds are dead in the air, likewise with deer I have had no issue and I have shot many like many other stalkers ..