These Cartridges Aren't For Hunting?
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Welcome to Ron Spomer Outdoors! In this video, I discuss cartridges that aren't for hunting! I don't think so. These cartridges were designed for the military that are incredibly effective for hunting. We'll dive into the history and ballistics in this episode!
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
I kinda think military cartridges were actually designed for hunting. Just not the normal kind of hunting.
Not hunting-killing! The end result is the same.
Hunting the most dangerous game
They're all made for hunting, 🤣
The difference between military rifles and hunting rifles is that military rifles are designed to account for animals that shoot back.
@Ray-rw7nz The difference between the mass issued military rifles and ammo and civilian hunting rifles/ammo is that military rifles are generally not as accurate or high as quality as the game hunting/sporting specific rifles. At least when it comes to modern semi-auto rifles. Calibers really don't matter up to a certain point. It's all about shot placement. I use junk .762x39 soft points for hogs and white tail out of an old surplus Romanian beater. But in my location (the swamps and pine forrest of Southern Mississippi), taking a shot longer than 200 yards is extremely rare. So, a "military round" is more than enough.
After WW1 a lot of Canadian soldiers brought their Lee Enfield rifles home with them, that were chambered in .303 British, and those became the iconic Canadian hunting rifle afterwards.
Similar thing in a lot of commonwealth countries, especially if they manufactured Lee Enfields and had surplus which never saw service such as those produced by Lithgow in Australia
To bad Canadians don’t have enough balls to stand up to Turdeau. You’ll lose that gun soon also.
Still is a main stay, the Lee Enfields in a variety of formats still are taking game.
Incorrect soldiers did not get to keep their personal rifles. when they got back to canada the rifles went back into arsenals and were eventually surplussed as new models were issued. After ww1 and ww2, ross rifles and older model enfields were cheap as chips as the government surplussed them. Canadians, many of them former soldiers purchased them for cheap. Even before ww1, early model Lee metfords were being surplussed and sold in canada as hunting rifles. The 303 cartridge was trusted powerful, and surpluss ammo was plentiful, especially as they made the transition from semi smokeless to cordite, then from cordite to stick powder. And when Canada moved to the 7.62x51 nato in the 60s again, the market was flooded with mrk 4 Enfields and lots of cheap ammo
I grew up in northern Ontario..
Many a dinners were served up because of the 303 hanging on the gun rack in are house..
Then in the early 70s he moved over to the 30-06..
And that put a lot moose dinners on the plate..
These are all great. The Swedish M96, 6.5x55 Mauser is another great long range cartridge.
a favorite round of mine!!!
Took my first deer with an M94 carbine war trophy from Vietnam. That thing is a pleasure to hunt with.
The 6.5 CM is almost identical to the 6.5 Sweed and it’s killed everything that walks
I prefer the M38 Carbine in 6.5 x 55.
I made a comment about exactly this caliber before I saw your comment. I loved that round. I hunted with a refurbished mauser with a custom Monte Carlo stock and took a lot of deer with it. The longest shots I ever took with it was at a range of about 250 yards while hunting over soybean fields. I cleanly took every deer I ever shot with it. Only one of them ran about 50 yards before dropping. The others dropped where they stood. I'm sure I could have stretched the range quite a bit, but never had to.
During the war(s) the Russians used the 7.62x54R. The Finnish copied the 7.62x54R after succeeding from Russia as the 7.62x53R. 7.62x39 used.311/.312 bullets as well but didn't see wide use till the RPD-44 SKS-45 came out.
Beat me to it.
The 7.62-39 is not a .311 or.312 bullet it's a .308 bullet the 303British used a .311 or .312
@@warrengreen3217I looked it up just to make sure, but it is indeed between .309 to .311
For as long as I’ve remembered and by google
@@trkjivdlopmd all my reloading books got .308 and if u look closely at Ron paper work it say .308 for 7.62×39 and I never seen a .309 bullet on the market
@@trkjivdlopmd I take that back the 300savge was a .309 or .308 and 7.62×39 .308 to .311 which seems like a large difference
The 6.5x55 Swedish mauser is a great round/gun. This caliber was favored for decades in 1,000 yds match shooting competitions. With a 129 gr loading, I get 2,950 to 3,150 fps, depending on powder. Very accurate and hard hitting, Ive taken deer to 450 yds and woodchucks out towards 500 yds.
how much noise though
@@edwardkujawa no more noise than any other standard centerfire rifle
@@wiseguysoutdoors2954
Made the 6.5 Creedmoor mundane!
YOUR 1000% ON TO IT ONE BEST MOST ACCURATE ROUNDS AND EFFICIENT EVER MADE
My 7x57 is a great round for anything I’ll ever hunt and my wife loves her 30-06 and has never lost a deer with it.
I know plenty of hunters who’ve used most 20th Century military rounds for deer hunting and they’ve never complained about their ammo not getting the job done!
Great video!
Privi Partisan makes good hunting 7mmx57 spitzerr soft points at a good price that are for hunters. The main reason for soft points is military FMJ's will go through trees and keep on going for amazing distances because they don't release their energy via mushrooming. Even AK fmj ammo has a range that carries. This is why we hunt with soft points. 7x57mm Mauser because it's an older design is tapered for great extraction and has an adequate powder charge without being of unnecessary magnum capacity that can beat you up. My opinion is the 7x57 is a cartridge way above it's time that is more than adequate for all North American game. This old cartridge isn't going away any time soon just like the 8x57 and 30 06.
I think one of the best Military Cartridges for hunting, is the Swedish 6.5 x 55.
It's used quite lot in Sweden and bit less in Finland and Norway for hunting. .308, 30-06 and 9,2x62mm are most common in Finland.
7.5 x 54 French
Yes,they hunt moose with a swede 6 5 x 55 mm in Scandinavia
When talking about the 6.5 family I'm really surprised you didn't mention the even more famous military round turned hunting-the 6.5x55 Swede.
I was focusing on rounds used in the Wars. Sweden, to my knowledge, was neutral in WWII. Did they participate in WWI? I don't think they did.
The Finnish used the ring bolt 6.5x55 swede Mauser pretty extensively in WWII. Sweden wasn't particularly neutral...they had their hands too full killing nazis in their own mountains to worry about attacking anyone else. At least I remember reading that somewhere
The AK-47 came out in 1947. The SKS was in introduced in 1945, along with the 7.62x39(originally designed in 1943). Also, the 7.62x54R was introduced in 1891, making it the longest serving military cartridge in history, still in service today.
Hate to be that guy, but 45-70 is still issued as a blank for coast guard line throwing guns, apparently.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 45-70, I don't know if it is still issued at this present date though.
@@Bhartrampfthanks, a typo I fixed.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 I figured it was, I'm a member of the fat thumbs club myself 🤣
Russian trash was TRASH at it's inception, and it's still TRASH to this very day!!!! The history of russia on this planet, ANYTHING russian, needs to be relegated to the trashbin of history, from rifles to individual people, to the supposed land of russia itself, should be melted into one homogeneous glass ball from the fire of nuclear materials!!!!!
The reason the 7.7x58mm Japanese and .303 British (7.7x56mmR) are very similar is intentional; the Japanese effectively took the .303 Brit and transitioned from a rimmed case for their Type 92 heavy machine gun to a rimless case so it could function better in the Arisaka action. The IJN even used the .303 Brit in many of their aircraft, since they produced and used a licensed Lewis gun (ironically labeled the Type 92 light machine gun) for the rear gunners of their dive bombers and torpedo bombers.
Excellent show. The reason for the very low chamber pressures in the US 8mm Mauser loadings is because the manufacturer never knows if this will be chambered in a .318 or .323 barrel. A .323 cal bullet is used, but at 35k psi to prevent an unplanned disassembly of the rifle. I have 2 "guild gun" Mausers, both pre WW II conversions of a WW I K98. One had a button passed through the bore to turn it to roughly .323 and the neck was reamed to allow for case mouth expansion. That one I shoot full power 8mm loads. In the other though, it has a .318 bore and the neck has not been opened. That one I use those 35k PSI loads (yes, with .323 bullets, they draw down). I love the rifle with its "butter knife" bolt handle and nearly every inch of metal engraved or faceted. I don't want to ruin it with a full power load. So anyway, there is a long winded reason why you saw the 8mm Mauser load only developing 35k PSI.
Also, just to add... my grandpa bought a 6.5 Carcano artillery carbine for my uncle when he was a kid. After a little bubafacation, it was ready for a 10 year old. My cousin has it now and I loaded some nice loads for it. It is now his favorite small blind gun. My various Swedish Mausers have also been used to take deer, that 6.5 Swede just hits them like the hammer of Thor. I also have an 03-a3 I would like to take a deer with. Those old military cartridges are great for hunting with. Just use a modern bullet. ;)
Your butter knife handled rifle sounds like one I had. I really liked it but it wouldn't group worth shucks.
303 or 3006 either work well on all game up here just vary your loads a bit for game on the hunt
They still make the .318 cartridges, I don't remember off hand what the different markings are, I think one is a S and the other isn't. Anyways, just get the proper ammo for the small bore and let'er rip .
@@Bhartrampf I have several boxes each of two different 7.92 J loads. One old S&B and one is a remanufacturing company from out west. The remans are .318 and very light loads. The S&B are stepped bullets measuring .323 at the case mouth and are also very light loads. Both are 170 RNSPs. I found a published reduced pressure load using IMR 4198 and a .323 170 grain bullet and found that to be pretty accurate out to 200 yards. Minute of boiler room on a white tail anyway. I am considering having the neck and throat opened up to JS specs. That will greatly reduce the chances of a RUD if any JS ammo finds its way into that rifle.
I just want to thank you for your content. Honestly, just watching you talk and share stories occasionally is calming. Good information. Wish there was more older outdoorsmen like yourself. Wide brimmed hats with a easygoing attitude towards the outdoors is a combination that feels lost over the years. Thank you Ron. Hopefully I can be the same for a later generation one of these days
Thank you, Austin.
I'm new to rifle hunting and rifles in general. Your videos are very helpful to a guy like myself. Thanks for all you do with your videos.
Welcome to the fun zone, had a rifle in my hand since I was a kid and still learning about it.
Welcome to it, there always something new to learn.
he is not telling the reason why military ammuntion isnt really good corrosive primrs one thig and bullets used are non expanding rounds they wee designed to put a hole in you and kill as wellbut dont expand theythey aewimp theythey aewimp theythey aewimp theythey aewimp theythey aewimp
Ron , back in 1968, my mom bought me a 7 x 57 and my dad a 8 x 57 at Macgomery ward,mine was 28.00 dollars and my dad’s was 32 dollars.
I loved that gun still have it but I don’t shoot it much now. Just to let you know.
Thanks for all the information you give us. Can’t wait for the next episode.
Great video. I have taken deer with 303 Brit, 7.92x57, 7.62x39, 45-70, 7.62x54R, 6.5x55 (Swede) and the 30-06. None of the deer went beyond 40 yards. I reload all my ammo and it is loaded to (or as close as I can get) to military weight and velocity. This keeps my sights close to point of impact.
Now take them with 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, and 5.56x45mm and your journey to the dark side will be complete.
I love the video but wish you had mentioned the 30-40 Krag as a comparison to the others it was created in that same time period.
I recently bought a 45-70 and I was thinking of using it this deer season. Have any suggestions on a good ammo for deer hunting? All I have is some 410 grain fmjs my uncle gave me when I bought the rifle
@@Alex.2014. Any of the factory 300 gr loads will work fine if you don't reload and Remington makes a 405 grain soft point that is a very good as well.
@@russellmoore1046 thanks for the advice
30-40 Krag is a military cartridge that took a world record Elk. that record lasted for nearly all of the 20th century. I have my great grandfather's krag that I still hunt with today.
Ron, the Japanese Mauser action on the 7.7 Arisaka has been called the strongest action of any weapon in WWII - as long as you have one made before the second half of 1943.
JES Reboring in Oregon told me he knew someone who tried to make the weapon break the action. They welded the end of the bore shut and fired 4 rounds before the stock broke.
I got a sporterized early 1943 model for Christmas when I turned 13. It was a tack driver with iron sights.
They make a great donor action for a .358 Win or .35 Whelen rebarrelling.
FWIW, a 7.7mm is the metric equivalent of the imperial .303.
P.O Ackley could not blow up the japanese action. Read his Handbook for shooters and loaders vol. 1.
7x57 Mauser is the best cartridge ever devised by man for both war and hunting medium to large game. No one will ever change my mind on that. It's versatility is superb. The 7.65x53 is also an absolutely superb hunting round. I have a Model 1891 Mauser chambered for it that is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever fired. I would not hesitate to hunt anything in North America with it.
Another underrated military cartridge which became a popular hunting round, especially in Europe, is the Swedish 6.5 x 55. It also has a following in Africa. Thanks for another great video !
Agree. Swede is very capable!!
It has a following in the states too, by those in the know.
@@gsnicholas8522 yes, but to a lesser extend than in Europe. The 6.5 CM is the US version if the 6.5x55 Swede. The Swedes and Norwegians had the right idea way back in 1894, with a round very much ahead of its time.
@@PassivePortfolios I never claimed it to be as prominent here as in Europe. Also, it was created earlier than 1894.
@@gsnicholas8522 it was accepted as the military round in 1894 if you want to get technical. Thanks for you commentary.
7.62x39 compares pretty well with 30-30. Very nice little round out of a short, light bolt action. Getting good factory ammo is the biggest issue.
Hertzers soft points perform well. But wolf hollow point is surprisingly effective. It mushrooms well with minimal fragmentation. It usually loses the jacket , but nbd round under the skin on the far side of the target at 75 yards.
Prvzi Partisan makes some good PSP loads in 7.62x39, available online for around $20/box.
7.62 x 39 is a nice round, and it probably compares well with old-school blunt-nosed .30-30 loads, but I don't think it can match modern .30-30 performance potential afforded by Hornady Leverevolution ammo and the components needed to duplicate it with handloads. Here's what that ammo does out of my 20" barreled Marlin 336:
160 grain FTX
M (velocity/energy) 100 200 300 400
2380/2013 2176/1683 1983/1397 1801/1152 1631/945
That 400 yard number-set is instructive. That's the same average energy that my former 170 grain Speer Hot Core load delivered at 200 yards. It's enough power to kill elk out to 200 yards with proper shot placement. I don't think a 7.62 x 39 can be made to deliver that kind of power..
@@jerroldshelton9367 People severely underestimate 30-30. Is it 30-06? No of course not but good loads blow away things like 7.62x39 or 30 carbine which most people compare it to.
@@wingracer1614 I was one of them, in spite of having a great uncle who lived in the Alaskan bush from 1920 to 1955 and used an 1894 Winchester in .30-30 to kill his moose and caribou with.
He used three loads in that rifle. He used a 170 grain W-W Silvertip for moose and caribou, When doing his gold prospecting or when out fishing he loaded up with 160 grain Dominion FMJ (Yeah, full-metal jacket) ammo for bear defense. He told me that he used to be able to buy reduced power and velocity loads that he shot hares and other small edible thngs with.
My uncle Bob used a Model 94 in .30-30 to successfully hunt javalina, pronghorn, feral goats, blacktail deer, mule deer, feral hogs, caribou, and elk.
When I was 11 years old, we were up at our cabin getting things ready for the upcoming deer season, and uncle Bob said he was going to miss the first two weeks of the season because he was going on a Wyoming pronghorn hunt.
"So, what's your new rifle going to be?" I asked, not believing that anybody would go on a pronghorn hunt with a .30-30.
"I've got an old white T-shirt," he said. "So, what in the hell do I need a different gun for"?
I didn't understand the significance of that until I went on my first pronghorn hunt some years later, and saw how a white T-shirt could "lure" a herd of speed-goats well within .30-30 range.
When Bob returned to the family hunting camp, he returned with photos of his successful pronghorn hunt.
My great uncle John was born in 1900. He had a completely different view of the .30-30 than gun scribes of the 1970s did. To him, the .30-30 was as powerful and flat shooting a round as open metallic sights allowed him to make use of. As a kid, I watched him whack many a California high desert and Utah mule deer with his open-sighted Model 1894 in .30-30 at 175, 200, or 250 yards. What I never saw him do was shoot more than once.
6.5x55 Swedish is a Military round, one of my favorite for hunting.....i use the Russian 7.62x39 on just about anything and successfully so
.308, .30-06, 6.5x55 Swede are “military” cartridges that I use. All are superbly effective on deer and have used the -06 on moose, caribou, black bear and grizzly. My pet rifle is a custom 6.5x55 Swede with 131gr bullets that was made in 1900. Wonderful opportunities using military cartridges.
the 308 win and sprfld 06 are very close 308nmax 200 grn 30.06 220by co theythey aewimpmparison
In regards to gun quality, a gun made earlier in the war is probably of higher quality than one made late in the war. This would be especially true for the Japanese and German rifles.
And Russian. They definitely hammered those out as fast as possible, not as good as possible. During wartime, that is.
Aesthetic wise yea they may be rough, but safety and functionality they are safe, it would be counterproductive to give your soldiers rifles that were bad and unsafe
One of the biggest issues with surplus rifles were the ones shot using that era of corrosive ammo. I've seen beautiful Mausers and Mosins alike where the bore was terrible and full of pits due to the use and lack of cleaning after shooting corrosive ammo.
My father in law was a Navy Captain during WWII. During the surrender of Japan he was on a ship in Tokyo harbor. Among the war materials surrendered/confiscated was a case of German Mausers still in cosmoline that had been sent to Japan in 1937 as a gift recognizing the signing of the Anti-Comintern Pact, the original Axis treaty before Italy joined. As a ranking officer my father in law got one of the rifles as "war booty". He sporterized it with a Bishop stock and Bausch &Lomb scope in the 1950s, but you could tell the original machining was excellent. It is still the original 8x57 clambering and has accounted for many elk, several deer and a few antelope over the years.
Three rounds that started out as military rounds, were well used and accepted, are the 7x57 Mauser, 45-70, and 30-40 Krag. All developed in the 1800s, and in use today in new rifles!
The 7.62x53R is the Finnish designation for the Russian 7.62x54R.
The 7.62x53R was largely loaded with .308 bullets, while the 7.62x54R was largely loaded originally with.310 and .311 bullets.
The Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles are definitely like you described, varying bores, lower quality, etc.
If you can get your hands on a Finnish rebuilt Mosin-Nagant, especially the M39, grab hold of it. Those are fine specimens of what the Mosin-Nagant is capable of.
I picked up one with an antique receiver, originally built in 1893 in Russia and rebuilt last in Finland by Sako in 1948. It shoots 1.5MOA easy with modern handloads from an amateur reloader (me) using Hornady 150gr SST and H380 powder.
It put several deer in my freezer over the years, up until 2020, when I decided to get something that isn't an antique. I still take it out of the safe for a few target shots because the only downside is the 90° bolt turn for me
Fascinating. Thanks for all the great research, Ron. I’ve often wondered how they compare.
Having grown up in South Africa I can tell you that I knew more local people hunting with 303 British than any other cartridge. Using old Lee Enfield rifles mostly. Everyone thinks African hunting is all 375-458 rifles, and they are popular, but more with visiting hunters. At least that was the case back in my day. (60s through early 80s)
My dad dropped a deer with a 7X57 Mauser, another military rifle. He was using surplus ammo because it was inexpensive. Small hole going in, small hole coming out, and same size hole through the 8 inch pine tree behind the deer, and no idea where the bullet stopped, or how many other things it went through on it's way to the ground. Not a good idea to use a FMJ military bullet for hunting game animals. Good expansion is a good idea for a number of reasons. Heck of a nice rifle though.
7mm mauser is an absolutely fine cartridge.
And ,7x57 can use 180 and heavier bullets if need be . Swift Aframe 160 is a fine brush bullet
That’s why I prefer an elevated position, the bullet is going in the dirt. As a MN whitetail hunter it’s not an issue as the heard comes through every day around 9am and 4pm, it’s finding the bucks in the area that posses a challenge.
I have a 1903A4 and been hunting with it for 35 + years . And 303 and 7.62x54R all grate deer hunting riffel's
My first rifle for hunting was a 98 Mauserthat worked just fine taking deer here in Kommifornia. Later I had the chamber lengthened and improved and I had me a 8 mm/06 improved. It shot extremely well and I used it for Elk very successfully. What most people don’t realize is that a cartridge/rifle combination is just a tool to get a job done. Once that bullet leaves the muzzle, it doesn’t know what cartridge case or rifle it came from. The performance of a cartridge really boils down to the ability of the guy or gal that pulls the trigger. I’m sure you have heard the old saying, “ beware of the man, or woman, with only one rifle”!
Rifle, Shotgun and a Pistol,what else do ya need!!😂😂😂
Now that was interesting and informative. If it has been hunted it has been hunted with the 30-06 successfully.
Think of all the new/newer cartridges that came from old military cartridges.
The Japanese 7.7 x58mm was more prolific than the older 6.5x50mm. The Type 99 in 7.7 was the standard issue battle rifle and their aircraft were fitted with the 7.7 machine guns.
I've personally shot a doe with a 7.7 150 grain Hornady SST at about 50 yds, not only did she go down, she went down quick it looked like someone was using a milk jug to pour out the blood.
@@schottiey The Arisaka would have been very popular in the US with all the bring homes if not for it's odd safety.
Spot on Ron! Go a bit farther back and you'll find the .30/40 aka .30 Army. Shot a pile of whitetails with that in both granddads Winchester Model 95 {military surplus) and a Springfield '98 Krag (also a military surplus rifle albeit sporterized). Both light recoiling and very accurate within their range.
I'm used to seeing a Mosin Nagant chambered in 7.62x54mmR (rimmed). I remember Cabelas selling the rifles for $59.
"Beware of the man who has one gun. Chances are, he knows how to use it." I remember the old USMC days. Marines would say "I'm a government hunter." When asked what they hunted the answer was; "Other governments', Government Hunters" PS: I always learn a lot from your videos and am challenged to think. Thank you and please keep them coming.
🗣SEMPER FI 🇺🇸🤠1976-1982. USMC.
I remember those enfields being $120 at the gun shows. Hell i remember $200 m1's from the cmp!
My dad used to tell me about the $5 barrels filled with foreign surplus rifles at the hardware stores.
My No 4 Mk1 SMLE was only 250 at a shop in about 2007, with a sling. Great rifle, effective sights, good ballistics. One of the best combat rifles ever
Most people used military surplus rifles to hunt with. Teddy Rosevelt used a 30-06 to take an elephant.
Ron the x53 r was the Finnish refurbished capture rifle and they were .308 bore the X54R was Russian and the varied bore wise
7.62x39 is my favorite whitetail/hog cartridge. The Federal Power-Shok load is an absolute hammer.
Nothing as fun as hogs with an AK...
6.5Carcano was a great cartridge with modern bullets but it just never caught on in the USA.
well the assassination of jfk with it didn't help
@@jacobmullins3644 good advert, accurate and fatal
@@jacobmullins3644 a good advert, accurate and fatal
Thanks for sharing the 6.5 Arasaka as a hunting cartridge. It’s my favorite deer cartridge in the T/C Contender, duplicates the 6.5 JDJ round from J. D. Jones. Incredible accuracy with the Nosler 120 gr. Ballistic Tip bullet @ 2400 fps.
My tc is 35 rem enjoy ❤
Did I just hear Ron Spomer say that the .308 was wonderfully effective? I think my hearing is going bad!
he did! lol
The 7.62 x 39 was also the chambering for the SKS which, I believe, predated the AK-47.
I've learned so much from ya Ron. Can't wait to pass on what I learned.
You should read the old books by Bob Hagel, Jack O’Conner, and Jim Charmichael. You will be amazed and know where Ron gets his material.
I've used the Lee-Enfield,since I was 12,and I'm 72,now.
Still have a No4Mk 1,that was refurbed at Fazurkely,in 1948,with a heavier match barrel.
I load 174 HPBT .311 bullets with 40gr,Hogdens H414,...great groups.
My first buck fell to a British .303 in 1978.
Of the non-US cartridges, my faves are the 8x57 and 303 Brit. Great rifles, great cartridges. I enjoy shooting iron sighted rifles, and it is no handicap out to 150 yards or so. I have a Misin with the NcStar 2-7x long eye relief scope. Look forward to fiddling with that. I need a 6.5x55 too.
Although it probably did not serve directly in WW2, the 7x57 deserves a mention. It was widely used by militaries in Spain and Mexico and all over South America. It spawned some wildcats, most notably the Bob, which have been successful. It was considered a worldwide standard for game hunting for decades. Its use against us in the Spanish-American war (mostly the 1893 i think) directly led to us adopting a Mauser pattern rifle, in the form of the 03 Springfield. My 1895 Chilean (Ludwig Loewe, Berlin, 1908) is a tad rough cosmetically but shoots fine. The modern 7mm-08, which i plan to buy, is only about 100 fps faster than the 7x57 in most bullet weights. The 7x57 can use the traditional 173 and 175 gr bullets, which are probably a bit too long to be efficient in the shorter 7mm-08 case. All in all, a cartridge just about as important as the 8x57. Only diff is, the 8x57 set the standard for dimensions, base and rim diameter, etc, a few years before the 7x57. Discussions like this are always interesting.
I would not hesitate to have either of the Japanese rifles. Hornady makes ammo, or did, and brass is out there. Bulket diameters are both standards, unlike the Carcano (ugh). Now where did i put that Portuguese Vergueiro......?
The best military cartridge used for hunting is the 8x56mmR Mannlicher, used by Austria, Hungary, and Bulgaria since 1930, it's still used by civilians in those countries, and outperforms even the .30-06 Springfield.
And about the Japanese, they had the 6.5x50mm Arisaka since 1889 first used in the Type 22 Arisaka, the 7.7x58mm Arisaka appeared only in 1932 for the Type 92 Machine Gun.
The 7.7 jap was chambered in some sort of bolt rifle, In my teens, a classmate had one he hunted deer with.
The 8x56R does not outperform the 06, it is more on the order of the 8x57 with a 206 gr bullet at 2300 fps.
Maybe modern PPU 8x56mmR loads are less powerful, but old Austrian 1938 and Bulgarian 1940 loads were much hotter.
And about the 7.7x58mm Arisaka, it's the Type 99 from 1939.
It's a good round but not as powerful as the 30-06 by a decent margin. As in several hundred feet per second in the same weights. There were machine gun only loads for some old military rounds which can be dangerously hot for the rifles, but even those shouldn't exceed 30-06. It's just simple geometry, the 30-06 has a ton more powder capacity than most these other rounds, about 10 grains more than the Austrian. The 30-06 was WAY over built for the job, enough so it was replaced. I'm not sure how you can get the Austrian to outperform the 30-06 with drastically less propellant, and a worse ballistic coefficient.
@@Winkler_B_Rudolf_1911 i doubt that. The case capacity is notably smaller than the 06,so even "hot" loads would fall short.
Forgotten Weapons did a video on some of the Arisaka rifles that were brought back after the war. Turns out that some were actually training rifles that were not designed to handle full powered rounds. That caused a number of accidents when the unknowing tried to use them.
I was pretty sure the Russian is a 7.62x54R
Yup. Russian is a 7.62 x 54R. 765x53 is a different caliber. Argentine Mausers. Also a 310/311 bullet about same power ad the 308/7.62
7.62x53 was a Finnish round based on the Russian 7.62x54
I know more than a couple of people that love to hunt with mosins.
There is also the x53R made by the Finns for their Mosins. If the rifle is stamped with a D, the bore is .311, otherwise it is most likely (notice, most likely) a .308 bore. In a D stamp bore, you can freely shoot either, but your accuracy may suffer with .308 bullets in a .311 bore.
@@cw2ahe said 7.62x53mmR, which is the Finnish loading for the Mosin nagant, they called it so to help distinguish the rounds, he did not say 7.65x53mm, which was actually the export round, and used by Belgium in 1889, Turkey in 1890, and then the Argentinians in 1891. I happen to own examples of all the listed calibers.
On advice from CSM who was the Game Warden at the military base on my island my father bought a .308 Winchester from Dicks Sporting Goods for $99.00. The rent for our home at the time was $20.00 a month. 1960- 62 or so. He then gave my father 1,000 rds of military ammo to hunt with. My Uncle who was in the reserves/National Guard bought a 30-06 and a 7mm08. Plus he carried the 1911A1 .45 acp issued him in Korea then early stages Vietnam. My Uncle retired with his .30 cal Carbine and his 1911A1 .45 acp which he gave me in 1980. I have it till this day. 40 plus years later. Runs like a Swiss Watch mechanically. He loaned it to a friend who returned it rusty and missing its ivory handles. Besides the new mags I got from Kimber the grips were the only things replaced. I still have the two original mags as souvenirs. Ive carried it on execution of search warrants as a Deputy Sheriff. No one has ever moved after hearing old Betsy send a FMJ downrange. She talks louder than that sissy 9mm pistol we're issued. Its worth the butt chewing I got every time. You brought back some fond memories. Theyre all gone home to Jesus. But Betsy still lives in my safe eager for her next range day.
Thank you,
Aloha
My understanding has been that the 7.7 was mostly issued to the Imperial Marines as they were big guys and the recoil was a bit to much for the standard troops.
Big and Japanese WW2 soldier do not go along, the Rifles were almost as tall as the soldiers carrying them. They were fed mostly rice and averaged around five foot three and a half inches tall and average weight was 116 to 120 lbs. Even today most Japanese are quite short but they are taller than they used to be due to more food being available these days.
Hi Ron. The 7.62 x53r. I believe is the Finish, refurbished mosin nagant an they rebarreled them with soko barrels an they were 308 dia. Very accurate machine... The mosin nagant was 7.62x54 r
Hell, the 5.56Nato round started as a varmint round adapted to military use.
That’s not true, it was developed to meet the criteria of the military trials and then marketed as a sporting rifle prior to its military adoption.
@@jaydunbar7538 the round, not the weapon. It started as the.222 Rem
@@jaydunbar7538 no, it was a varmint cartridge first. The rounds that went into it, and even the .223 was saami accepted right before military acceptance.
@@jaydunbar7538here's a quote for ya, "In September 1963, the .223 Remington cartridge was officially accepted and named "Cartridge, 5.56mm ball, M193". The specification includes a Remington-designed bullet and the use of IMR4475 powder which resulted in a muzzle velocity of 3,250 ft/s (991 m/s) and a chamber pressure of 52,000 psi.[5]"
Deer culling during the 1950's and 60's in New Zealand used army surplus .303 rifles and ammo. They filed the tips down on the full metal jacket ammo so they would open up on impact. Some top shooters killed 100 red deer in a day before helicopter meat hunting got the numbers under control.
7.62x63 mm is perfect for deer hunting.
Im not familiar with it.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 that's the metric designation for the .30-06
I have a Ruger American bolt action rifle chambered in the 7.62x39mm but I use 154 grain hunting load.
The 30-06 is a prime hunting cartridge even today.
I have hunted successfully for years with the 6.5x55, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, 303, 30-06, 308. They all will take deer, hogs, most things out there. Yes, I handload all my hunting ammo. These were sporterized rifles. The 6.5x55, the 8mm were built from Vz24 actions. The 7.62x54R was extremely modified and is extremely accurate. The 303 was in original configuration, no scope, and I was young and had eagle eyes then. The 30-06 and 308 were used rifles that got transformations as project guns, new barrels, triggers, stocks, etc. All of these cartridges are excellent.
I think Ron was meaning the 7.62x54R (The Russian cartridge used in WW1 and WW2) but was saying 7.62x53R (a Finnish take on the Mosin Nagant).
Literally every popular hunting cartridge was a military cartridge basically until the .30-30. So .50-70 .45-70 6mm Lee navey .30-40 Krag and .30-03 were all used immediately for hunting. This was same for every early European cartridge as well. This whole concept of military equipment as special is very very modern!!!
Just a ridiculous idea indeed!
I use a 7.62x39 bolt gun for hunting deer. dose everything I need it too. pretty much the same ballistically as a 30-30.
Long as it's got the power to quickly/cleanly kill and you're accurate with that ammo, I think that's far more important than if it's military or hunting designed
Back in the '60's & '70's here in the deer woods of Northern Pennsylvania many of the common firearms were .30-30's and most of the military calibers you mentioned; especially the .30-06. .
@@rudygeorgiamulesandcountry1594 yeah that was every cartridge the US adopted for standard use. I omitted a 58 caliber rimfire cartridge fir the short lived 1865 Springfield. I did this because it appears that no significant civilian sake’s occurred. But starting with .50-70 every cartridge that’s been adopted (or entertained) has been popular with the public!!!
I’d love a 6mm Lee navey if I lived in 1910sh. It’s basically the only Mach 2.5 cartridge available at the time (1895). I think it was a sweet cartridge ballistics are a bit like 6mm ARC. I’d love a repro or better yet an original one…
@@Puma1Sunfire1 .270 Winchester has always a hunting cartridge.
I used to hunt with a fella in Missouri that used a 303 British for deer. It was an old military rifle with iron sights. He was deadly with that thing out to 300 yd
I think folks extrapolated the war rules for ammo and reversed the definitions. ps: the 6.5 Swede is still used on Nordic moose.
6.5 carcano was popular hunting cartridge in Texas in 1960s
I love your shows Ron, I watch them all! Question: do other countries have the cartridge development for the commercial market like the US has? I mean the sheer volume of different options for cartridges like the US. I would imagine not, because the US has more freedom with owning firearms, but I just wanted your take on it.
Thank ya sir!
I believe the US is unique in the volume of its cartridge development. Brits and Germans used to be on par into the mid-20th century, but anti-gun sentiment, I suspect, has slowed that. Norma of Sweden has been developing new cartridges.
Hi Ron I had an 8 x 57 mauser and I loaded 200 gr in that cartridge and I will tell you out to 400 yds I could literally knock down anything I shot several moose in British columbia elk in alberta Canada I even shot a bison for a farmer dropped him like a stone incredible hunting cartridge matched up very well to my 3006 very smooth action was happy with it
I have a British 303. Killed my first deer with it as a teenager. Still have the gun after 50 years.
I'm not sure how I missed this episode when it originally came out...
The only issue is bullet selection. Whereas military cartridges generally use ball ammo (due to very old treaties), you just need to select bullets as well as caliber/cartridge appropriate for the particular game & hunting situation (as Ron has told us many times).
As Ron recently demonstrated with his new single-shot (and has been demonstrated a gazillian times before), the 7x57 - originally a military round - is a great hunting cartridge. In high school, back in the 1980s, a buddy of mine bought a Lee-Enfield mil surplus in .303 British of the used gun rack. He handloaded with JSPs, and it was a great tool for Hunting in the Blue Ridge Mountains and the Shenandoah River Valley.
I think most forget that early military rounds were also used in aircraft.
My deer rifle is an old yugo m48 and it does quite well in the mountains of North Idaho on white trails.
Out to 300 yards I consider the 8x57 Mauser as lethal as a 338 Win Mag. Once past 300 yards I treat the 8x57 as I would a 308Win with a heavy bullet. I like the 196gr. soft points spitzers and boat tails and the 180gr. Barnes TSX are fantastic. The Nosler 180gr. Ballistic Tip hunting bullet is great too.
The 7.62x53mm was mostly used by the Finish in WWII. The Russians used the 7.62x54mmR although, as far as I know, exact same performance.
As for that 7.62x39mm, it would not be deployed until April of 1945 as far as I can gather. The bolt action rifles could have sticky actions and had slow fire rates. So they made the SVT-40 , which was a great rifle for the time, but was still fairly large and had too much recoil for its purpose. So they developed a much smaller cartridge, to bring more punch then the 7.62x25 Tokarev, but less than a 7.62x39mm. I also think it was largely inspired by the 8mm Kurtz (STG-44). So they scaled down the SVT-40 and made the SKS, worked out many of the kinks, and by the Battle Of Berlin, these rifles were issued to the Soviet troops. They had great success with this new rifle and cartridge, so much so, they redesigned it and made it a full auto called the Type 1 AK-47. To which would eventually become the Type 3 AKM that we all call the AK-47, that had a milled receiver and became those most popular service rifle in the world that is not a Mauser 98 or Mauser 98 clone.
So the svt40 and other derivatives of it are were designed by a different person, the PTRS and the SKS are the same system because they were made by the same person, the SKS won the trial for the 7.62x39 which is why is was adopted, but it was an expensive rifle to make, so mikhail kalashnikov design the Ak47 which functions very similar to the United stated M1 Garand, which the Ak47 was only supposed to replace the sub machine gun, but by the end of the testing if took the place of the SKS and sub machine gun, also when it first entered production it was stamp, but because in the beginning they could get the stamping right, they made them milled, (aka) akm
I’m not trying to correct you just supply some more information for you and others 🙂
@@gavinstevenson9853 I wish I could edit what I write as a reply. Their are a few typos. The Type 1 AK-47 and Type 2 AK-49, both rare, were milled until about 1955 I think, when they got Germans to help them learn stamping. Something to that degree, because the milled receivers were hard to manufacture and costly.
I am very aware that the person who made the SVT-40 versus the SKS, versus the AK are all different, just that's the path of the evolution of these firearms. To be fair, the STG-44 and AK-47 are actually shockingly similar in function and design. Just like the M1 Garand and other such firearms, they are gas operated autoloaders. I believe Kalishnokov actually got a lot of his inspiration from said firearm. Their was also a full auto SVT-40 looking gun I always forget the name of too. It was a way more complicated design and overly expensive and time consuming to manufacture in the early 1900s-1910s. I actually really like WWII firearms, so much history between them all, and the Nation's that built them.
Missed the 6.5x55 Swede, how could you 😂
27:50
Ron, from a former South Dakota farm boy, 7.65x53 is a Mauser cartridge invented by Paul himself for the Belgian 1889. It was also adopted by the Ottoman Empire and most notably Argentina and several other South American nations. The Mosin Nagant cartridge is 7.62x54r also used by Finland.
I think the AK-47 started around 1948, that maybe helped the 7.62x39
Ak47 is from 1947, hence the name. The round was the model 1943, designed for their next battle rifle the SKS(1945).
@@sinisterthoughts2896 they worked on it from 46 to 48, the ruskies adopted it in 49, so when I say 'around 1948' that's close enough for government work, 😂😂😂
I do feel silly though, it's right in the name
Hi Ron my calibers I own and trust 303 British, 6.5x55 swede and 223 Rem. With these i can do all from target to hunting in South Africa
if it can kill a man, it can kill pretty much anything that isn't considered 'very big game'
True enough.
ANY cartridge, regardless of its original intent, can be "converted" to an effective hunting cartridge with the right bullets. I have shot many hogs here in Texas using "military" cartridges, .308 and 7.62x39. Have shot coyotes with a "military" cartridge, 5.56/.223. I hear people say the 6.5 Creedmoor is NOT good for hunting because it was designed as a "long range target round, nonsense. Is the 6.5 Creedmoor a "great" cartridge, debatable, is it a dog of a cartridge, not at all, it is a good medium size game cartridge.
Had a few people tell me the creedmoor wasn’t good for hunting, i don’t talk about hunting with those people anymore, the bullet design is a little more important than the idea in the cartridge designers head lol
@@lrac7751 Yes indeed, bullet design makes all the difference.
I have built several rifles on Mauser actions, picking the best like FN BRNO even some V42 actions. The worst ones I ran into were the South American Mauser’s, they were soft metal usually made of 1020 steel. If you spend the time and money and have them heat treated they can be great for cartridge’s like a .308 or something like a 7x57 Ackley improved cartridge.
Yes, Export Mausers for south america are quite soft, i think the case hardening isn't very deep. You can feel and hear it by cycling the bolt. But the quality is outstanding, I have no problems with my .308 and 8x57Is convertions, but i wouldn't go beyond this (high pressure, overbore) without new case hardening. WW2 Actions are really hard compared to them, but sadly not so nicely made.
7.62x39 is an excellent short to medium range deer hunting round. It's my go-to all around cartridge.
My cow! Have killed everything that walks or crawls in the south east US using.30-06 in WW-I and WW-II USGI rifles. Recently came up with a pretty little .30-40 Krag infantry rifle. Got some old school vintage ammunition as well as dies and components to hand load for this rifle. I will be using it for deer in the fall.
Oh boy! Ron, they are going to go crazy with the corrections! I love your content and don’t care about simple mistakes. Keep up the good work!!!
On the subject of the pressures of service loads for these cartridges, the action designs and their materials were absolutely up to the task of handling them. The Arisaka in particular proved in testing conducted by the US Army Ordnance Department following WWII to be practically impossible to blow up. The real factor at play was the primitive state of development of smokeless powder. They burned much hotter than the powders of even the immediate post-WWII era going forwards, and loading for higher velocities would have resulted in unacceptably short lives for rifle and machine gun barrels, and therefore the expenditure of money that could be better spent elsewhere replacing them.
Also on the subject of the Arisaka, there was never any decline in quality of their manufacture which impacted their structural integrity. The stories you've heard of Arisakas blowing up are the result of people trying to fire live ammunition in purpose-built training rifles which were only ever intended to fire blanks, or a lightly-charged wooden bullet.
Most pre-WW2 military rifles were case hardened and sometimes with variable results. So, the rounds were developed to account for generally weaker metallurgy than is accepted today.
Love your insight. Just so you know, I’m on the Washington coast and we never see a 200 yd shot in our thick brush. I have a Ruger American in 7.62x39 and none of the deer in my freezer said that it’s not enough power to work. I’ve never had one go more than 40yards and never taken a second shot. Hunting is about getting to the game. Last year’s buck was taken at 12 yards. 😎
I have a Leanfield that comes in 303. My dad was a Korean veteran and used his hunting. These rifles were popular in the Commonwealth countries after the war.
303 British was originally designed to use cordite as its only powder available... is why velocity is so low in comparison to the old ought six 🤠
My favorite catridge is 9.3x62 it's a good cartridge. I wouldn't mind the 6.5x55 swede.
We had in Peru the 7.65 x 53 mm Argentine Mauser carttidge in Mauser 1909 and 1935 models. Very similar to the 308 Winchester in performance. Great for deer hunting, but ammunition is nearly obsolete and imposible to come by.
Great round, and yeah it is hard to find.
Norma has been producing that Argentine cartridge.... may still find it.. I us one on deer often..
Minor detail, the Russian for the Mosin Nagant was 7.62x54 R. it was a rimmed cartridge .
In florida, deer and hogs, depending on where im hunting, i carry an ar in either 300blk or 6.5 grendel. Once in a while when im feeling nostalgic i take the old
.35 rem or the 7mm/08 lever guns, but they are heavy compared to an ar!
Propellants have come along ways since that time as well. Did not dig into it, but I would not overlook that availability, sensitivity, and reliability of propellants/primers may have alot to do with the lower cartridge pressures of those discussed.
Ron you always have a great show, i have my great uncle's 8 mm that my dad send home after ww2 from Germany he had it reworked to looked like a modern rifle but still a 8mm Mauser he died in 1975 has bin used since then, he to ok a lot of deer with it. & he could have aford the one of the best gun made. But it was his pride & joy to show it it off every deer season, but you forgot to tell people learn to shoot what you have. You have a grate show. Keep up the good work.
My dad has 2 8x57 Mausers. I think one was turned in ‘38 & the other in ‘42. Collector’s items as far as I’m concerned because of the various markings on them. Definitely assembled for the war effort.
My brother used a sks when he was younger hunting deer in the 90's I don't think he shot over 75 yards with it but he loved it and said he never had to track them.
Ron, great videos appreciate all the content. For hunting what type of cartridges (e.g expanding, bonded, etc) are best to conserve the meat when hunting. I've seen some rather destructive ammo out there nowadays. Thanks again, Karl
I had an Arisaka in 7.7 that someone did a nice restoration job on. It even retained the chrysanthemum stamp on the receiver. I added a monopod and dust cover, but I never fired it despite a report in "Hatcher's Notebook" that described the amazing strength of the Arisaka receiver, which survived torture testing that destroyed such vaunted receivers as the Mauser 98. This is because the restoration did not strengthen the rifle; it merely removed the visible pitting. Underneath the wood the pitting was more pronounced and gave some indication of the poor state it must have been in at one point. I agree with you, if in doubt about the safety of firearm, have it inspected by someone knowledgeable on the subject. Regrettably, outside of a laboratory, I doubt very many people have the necessary skills or tools to perform a valid inspection of strength and tolerances (aside from a go/no-go gauge in the chamber).
It's kind of odd I found this video so close to Canada's Remembrance Day (Nov 11), after WW2 there was a huge amount of surplus .303 British rifles (the Lee Enfield SMLE) here in Canada, as around most Commonwealth nations. My Grandpa bought a few as they were inexpensive and did the job of taking game without any drama. My Dad was passed down one of these rifles which had been "Sportsterized" at some point by a gunsmith but retained the old stock minus the top wood pieces and some of the lower foregrip making it a lighter beast to carry and shoot. When I turned 16 I was handed that .303 and I still hunt with it to this day, and it is excellent on Moose! Sadly I never had kids but my brother has 4 boys one of whom will get this passed down to them at some point.
The .303's biggest fans are way up north in the Northwest Territories and Yukon among the Inuit and folks who live up there with them. The Canadian Rangers love the round so much that even though they were presented new Tikka built .308's most still use or favour the old .303 standard, and these guys fend off Polar Bears with them! I mostly use my .300 Win Mag or .308 these days depending where and what I'm looking for but that .303 British Lee Enfield is still a pretty awesome bush gun, way better than my .300 Win Mag. In fact if I had to keep or use just one rifle, I think it may just be the old .303. It's light, accurate, reasonably light (mine is open sights) and fast to acquire the target and if that .303 launches that 180gr bullet at something in the ungulate family here in Canada, it's going to be freezer fare.
When I was much younger, I was enthralled by high bullet energy figures. When the 7mm REM magnum came out I was amazed. For the last twenty years I’ve been hunting with a rifle that nearly a makes 1400fps and has just over 2000 ft-lbs energy. On target it must often be under 1000 ft-lbs. But it’s the deadliest rifle I’ve ever used. It makes one shot kills on 40 pound antelope and 1800 pound antelope or buffalo. Honestly I’d have to say sectional density and momentum are more important.
Great talk about how people have been able to adapt. For deer it doesn't take that must energy to cleanly kill them on shots taken inside 125 yards. Moose on the other hand, requires some serious punch.
A forgotten military round that lost out to the 'new .30-03' is the .30-40 Krag.
8x56R Hungarian also, in the M95. Its a hammer and fast brush rifle.
In my youth most of my friends used 30-40 Kraig, .303 British, 7, 7.65 and 8 mm Mausers. Some also had 30-06.
Out of the woodwork came .351 and .401 Winchester self loading rifles and .348 Winchester. Of course, many 30-30s
The issue with the low pressure is cuz of the available powders of the day. It was too fast burning to get high velocity without over pressure. This is part of why cartridges were so long espionage magnum cartridges. They needed empty space to keep pressures down. Then powder were slowed down in the 19teens to 1920s. This allowed higher velocities with lower pressure. This was also when spitzer bullets came out. Before this it was round nose. The spitzer had the advantage of having less contact with the bore. This results in lower pressures. These reasons saw many cartridges get upgraded like .303 British and 6.5 when they switched from heavier bullets with faster powder to slower powder with spitzers. As far as I know their was no change with the .30-06??? I think they wanted to stick with what worked.
Then post WW2 20mm cannon powder was milsurp and hand loaders started using it. Factory ammo followed. At this point we began to be able to take advantage of these cartridges without going over pressure.