Why Tjark is the best damage dealer in Tacticus - explained with special guest Towen
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- Understand why Tjark does the most damage in the game, despite 1% pierce. All of the math and theorycrafting broken down into the simplest of terms by special guest and Tacticus Ambassador: Towen.
🕒🕒Timestamps🕒🕒
00:03 Introduction
02:33 Not all characters are equal
03:56 Damage output versus armour
06:13 Summary
07:58 The future
09:38 Thank You
10:18 Join us
🔗🔗Links🔗🔗
Eternal Nexus Discord: / discord
Nandi's Infographics: tacticus.fandom.com/wiki/Info...
Towen's EN Labs Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Towen's GitHub Webtool: halmmar.github.io/tacticus-we... - Ігри
I was quite disappointed in the character when he first came out but now I know how to use him he amazing. Thanks Nandi!!
@@peazy216
Wow! This info graphic video was Very helpful. I never thought about the Short and Long Term dynamics of character damage abilities. Tjark should be an excellent asset against certain Guild Bosses, as well as against PvP and Tournament. Nandi, the work you put into your videos is Exceptional. Thank you. Keep up the great work.
According to my calculations, if the drone ability scales linearly to max level (doing 70% damage) , Sho'syl does 7780 (piercing) damage per turn upon summoning the third drone (assuming all drones survive and are able to attack)
Sho'syl's drones only use her damage stat on the turn she summons them. They use their own damage stat thereafter.
I totally get what you're saying, and it's something I hadn't fully considered before. Very interesting.
On Sho specifically, worth bearing in mind that his summons do affect his turn-over-turn damage output, which would increase it above Tjark again.
Huge difference is the adds. Three times the damage when all are out, for more actual damage than Tjark
This is actually super helpful to come back and review given the new BP in 2024.
When I saw the abilities, I immediately realized that he would go to my pvp team against psykers and Revas lovers
The format is perfect, guys! Thanks for explaining it in a simple way - I had Tjark marked down as a meh character buy I can see now, that I need to give him some love 😃
Thank you for explaining things so clearly Nandi
Really enjoy your videos Nandi - I’m a member of PoH World Eaters. Gotta say your videos have helped me improve my game dramatically!
Very insightful! Thank you!
This is great, thanks for another amazing video!
Another amazing videos nandi!
Incredible video as per usually. I’ll start investing in tjark right away!
This was super useful and a really good way to think about higher level play. I am not there yet but now I know some of my investments in other characters isn't fully wasted!
Great video and informative as always 👍
That was very fun. More Towen is always good.
That is exactly the same principle of why buffers (Eldryon and marneus) are the meta on guild raids, only 1 can be nulified by high armor, but by putting the 2 of them together, they overthrow any amount of armor the bosses can have. in terms of pvp low pierce units even with high stats will suffer against mkgravis armor units, but overall they are trying to keep some balance on the damage of diferent types of units
Like it! Keep putting out the great work dudu dee nandi
Great work, quite informative.
Math is fun with Nandi and Towen 😊
Okay so just to be clear. When the game calculates if a Characters damage is bigger than the targets armor, it does not calculate the damage of each hit seperatly but takes the total value of all 4 Hits combined? That would be news to me. I always thought it would be the other way round. 😮
Kut Skodden liked this Video btw.
No sorry if this was not clear - you are right it is damage per hit not total value
@@realtowen Yeah, which is why the best potential would be less hits with bigger numbers on Physical damage. The idea of low pierce characters being better in GR late game sounds good, but I'm sad that those characters are almost deemed to be utterly useless in Tournament Arena cuz Armor doesn't stop at 600 later in the tiers
@@TechPriestFredyes it remains true low pierce attacks are still easily countered by high amour and/or MK X Gravis trait
@@realtowen Allright, thank you for the clarification.
Great video! It could be quite a bit more comprehensive though. For example it feels a bit strange to mention Sho'syl's damage output and not mention that a fair bit of her damage and survivability is tied to her drones that will increase both by a significant amount, something Tjark doesnt really have. Another point would be that a character using low pierce damage will want to have fewer, harder hitting hits per attack to not have to lose damage multiple times per attack. Aaaand I would also still argue more pierce is strictly better, just the developers scaling it so that you get so much damage it tips the scale is a different thing.
Which is very weird design I feel. Its strange to have some characters be designed to be better late game and others early game. They should be as balanced as possible with different niches so you can play the way you want at all stages. A hero with low pierce should excel against softer targets with less armour but more health and vice versa. As it is it feels too much like an equation, if you're using a hero you like you're missing out because they arent good. Or your playstyle just isn't really valid. And you won't know how they scale at later points in the game if youre just starting out so making the "right" choice isn't even clear or easy. Not that there are straightforward ways to compare the heroes anyway.
Anyway, again, great video and its so nice to see this kind of information that is so hard to get a hold of in the game itself.
Definitely! I was cautious about making too long of a math based video and it possibly being too dry!
People seem to have received this well so will look to go into slightly more depth next time
Nandi, recommend doing a video on the different types of damage and why they matter.
Good point because it is very confusing to me......psychic,, physical, power, pierce, etc etc etc
Amazing video, Thanks Nandi!
By this logic should be boosting other characters like Kut Skoden and Gibbascrapz? Kut could be our unsung champion
thank you for opening my foolish eyes to the benefits of low pierce characters.
this is vital informaiton for the community, specially those who do not see endgame in sight and have no idea what lies await past the border.
I had a feeling almost everyone was underestimating my boy Tjark glad to see my investment into him is going to have some good returns
This is super handy. I've been wondering about using Tjark since I'm running into so many damn Overwatch combos in Arena. Azrael's suppressing active can help sometimes, but is really tough to get to hit against the range 3 snipers. Tjark is looking like a pretty good option.
I would LOVE to see an equipment video, its definitely the biggest question mark for me in the game, never sure how to gear my characters or what items to invest in.
It’s next on the list!
i kind of figured out that he is basically antiswarm and light armor and psykers during the early character development stages from the start
damn man I was looking forward to easing the stretch and ignoring Wulfen Jimmy Neutron but I guess I better get building :'D. Thanks guys for another well presented and informative video
Ive got one question after seeing and probably understanding this content.
Among the defensive items, there are the ones, who only give armour and the ones, who boost armour and life points.
Which one is better in general?
I would think, armour only is better against low pierce damage and the mixed one probably better against high pierce and psyker damage.
Is there a clear winner overall?
Hi! Thanks for publishing those interesting videos!
You don't mention it in this video, but isn't it the case that during a 4 hits attack, target's armor will be substracted 4 times?
That is correct! This applies to every hit
Great video. Snotflogga here I come
My question isnt só much on tjark but about snotflogga. Since he basicly has similar atk type and is tanky, does he behave like tjark?
Nice info, does this apply to snatflogga too?
I’ll need to double check but I don’t think his stats are great - despite the physical damage type!
Was thinking about this lately and then someone in my guild mentioned tjark again.
Does the armor Stat work against every hit of a multi hitter or against the overall output. So in case of tjark, do we have to work out his damage against armor 4 times or 1 time.
Yes works against every hit
For the greater good
Wouldn’t the 4x damage of Tjark be reduce if it was filtered through armor 4x for each hit?
Does this make Kut Skoden usable in the end game too? 4 attacks at OK damage with low pierce?
Yes, it's also why Thaddeus Noble is so useful no matter where you have him
I love these deep dives
I must say I am shocked, everyone was shitting on Tjark cause they are used to the pierce and psychic abilities porn dmg
Still he only moves 3, so for pvp i rather not for pve he might see some use now that i know this
What about Kut Skoden?
Does that mean that physical dmg characters like orcs gonna be top tier in late stages of the game?
Personally I really like Sho’. If you can keep his bots alive or give the extra hits they are amazing. Maybe I’m just dumb though.
Ok does this mean physical dmg is the best if it has 4 hits minimum? Or it has to do with how well the dmg scales on individual characters?
It’s to do with damage scaling! Characters with low pierce often scale really well into the late game
@@Nandi40k often, not all, got ya! What are some others that could perform at higher gear levels? Orks?
so does this also mean that Kut Skoden is slept on?
Nah... This dude will melt away. No point in making mastery out of it
What is the formula here? Let’s say i got 1.000 damage in total and enemy got 300 armor and i got %50 piercing ratio. 300x%50= 150 and 1.000 - 150 = 850 damage. Is that calculation correct?
I believe it's..
1,000 damage - 300 armor = 700 damage allocated to target.
700 damage x 50% (pierce) = 350 pierce dmg.
350 Pierce Damage x (# of hits) = total damage to target.
(+/- 20% of potential max damage output)
For each hit it Is the higher of;
Damage - Amour
Or
Damage * pierce ratio
The damage number can be -/+ 20%
So in your example the damage number will start between 800 and 1200
At 800 it is the higher of 800 - 300 = 500 or 800 * 50% = 400 so use 500
At 1200 it is the higher of 1200 - 300 = 900 or 1200 * 50% = 600 so use 900
So each hit will be between 500 and 900
In your example the average hit deals 700 damage and you never need to use the guaranteed pierce ratio part the damage dealt calculation
@@realtowen thank you very much.
If Tjark makes 4 attacks, does armor apply to each attack, or just the total damage done?
Each attack!
@@Nandi40k Wow, so even after that he still outscales the drones O_o that's kind of nutty
@@SuperCallum112 it just looks at single turn damage, over time the drones add up. The video is just to demonstrate that you need to look beyond pierce!
If this is still correct, should'nt he be part of the dirty dozen? And whats with all the Orcs and their 1%piercing?
It’s to do with damage scaling and to show that piercing (generally) matters little in the endgame pve content. If the dirty dozen was a marker just of how must damage characters do - then Tjark would be on it. However passive abilities etc play a huge role too
Sadly the orks scale very poorly despite their physical damage.
this video is mostly talking about damage in PvE content right? damage vs bosses and campaign units whos stats dont change?
What about in PvP, do characters armor values level up at the same rate as their damage does?
Correct, this is PvE focused.
With regard to PvP, I understand that armour and damage scale at the same rate - so characters with low pierce will still be countered in PvP by high armour. @realtowen will correct me if I'm wrong!
You are correct
Ok I have a couple questions for you invaluable nerds:
1. When Sho'syl's summons attack on subsequent turns, do they draw from Sho'syl's damage stat or do they have their own damage?
2. How would you factor in damage bonuses into this, such as Eldryon's Doom?
Thanks for what you guys do, the rest of us luddites appreciate your mathematical black magic.
1. They have their own stats, but use sho’syl’s on the turn they are summoned
2. Doom makes good multi hitters even better as it is applied per hit
Shosyl's summons use his attackf or the initial attack. After that they use the attack given by the stats listed in his passive.
For eldryon the way it works is that, each hit gets his passive buff doom. This means that bellator uses his passive 6 times (and an additional 6x where x is the amount of summons he has). Tjark will use 4 times eldryon passive. But shosyl will only use eldryon passive once. It's why people are annoyed at the mortarion boss, because when the eldryon bug disappears, they'll have to use one hit characters or switch to one hit ranged summons like with yarrick
Belator's summons use Eldryon buff but Shosyl's summons not? Maybe stupid question, but why, what the differnce?
@@Lezu77 they both use eldryon's buff, but shosyl only hits once, so he procs it once. Bellator has 6 hits in an attack and his summons hit 6 times as well, so the damage is heavily multiplied.
Seems like power damage 40% is the worst all around lol.
Thanks for explaining it. I could not figure out how 1% pierce was doing any damage.
System seems a bit whack to me. I thought the idea was use high pierce vs high armor crunchy targets and low pierce against low armor soft targets. Its not that at all based on this video. Its early vs long term return on investment.
Yea, really sounds like armor needs reworked or massively boosted, reworked sounds better
Does that mean that Orks may become meta at Diamond 2/3?
I’m sorry it is not low pierce that makes orks rubbish
@@realtowen I know, but I want to hope that it is that. :'((
@@realtowen What'd you say that makes Orks rubbish? I'd say that it's actually their tankiness and randomness- only 2 out of 5 Orks are tanky while all of them rely on longer fights (skills) to get an advantage. They also mostly do awfully low damage if they don't crit (pierce/damage problem).
They have little sustain and no healer but rely on longer fights, generally poor movement but want to melee - they just don’t gel
@@realtowen they do have a healer, the guy who summons a tank heals 2/5ths of orks, and his tank, the real problem is the abilities, the tank is good, but summoning grots is objectively one of the worst abilities in the the game, pitiful damage and low number of models, tbh even if they changed it to every tile next to an enemy and up 2 tiles away from him it would be a mid ability, the armor killer man's armor stripping is basically useless and it's ability hurts itself, as well as the fact it's not really optimized to melee or shoot that well, the squig is good for disruption, that's about its and the boss can move really far in one turn and his ability to shoot while punching does make his melee pretty good, but when you have one solid character that's not enough, it takes one broken character to make a bunch of bad characters ok
You probably put a lot of work into this video, but you didn't address quite a few situations, which should be considered when evaluating these characters, just to name a few:
More hits mean armor has more value, since each hit has to go through armor individually.
Armor related hero traits, like MK2 Gravis, Terminator armor, etc.
Encounters with extremely high armor opponents, like guild boss fights (Mortarion comes to mind).
Tjark is great, but on gold1 and below, not so much. Same goes for many other heros who deal physical damage.
He is nowhere near my most powered up but he does do some high damage compared to someone ive put a 'lot' of stuff into
did you even consider the fact that the armor will block the damage with every hit. So what I see is that at diamond tjark vs sho.
tjark have 8k damage with 1k9 dmg each hits vs 1k4 amor mean he deal 2k dmg while sho only have 3k2 vs 1k7 amor of tjark he still deal 2k5 dmg.
So in the end high piercing damage still out rank low piercing in term of PVP. guild raid still need to check
Except end game guild bosses only have 600 armour roughly
@@Nandi40k so in guild raid physical damage is better at end game but high piercing damage still be superior in pvp and arena in every stage of the game
Yes, that is what I’ve explained in the video
And this is why we now have radar charts with both pvp and endgame pve
While I do think that what you're saying is reasonable i dont think hes the best damage dealer in game
With a stretch he might be top 10
I am glad though that you're letting people know that he's better than everyone first thought and isnt a complete waste
Keep being aweosme brother and ill keep watching
-puntyer
From a pure stats point of view (ignoring skills and buffs), he is the best by some margin. I take your point - it's about more than that, and skills factor in heavily. Check out Towen's spreadsheets to get the raw numbers to play with, Tjark is a monster!
@@Nandi40k I think when you directly compare him to other four hiters the problem is that almost all of them are tanks and healers
So for the moment yes he has the best ratio but given time id be shocked if he stays in the top 3
Getting beaten left and right by low pierce ratio mob really embarassing. Im looking at you poxwalker!
Tjark 1 shot alot in pvp arena
For high single-hit damage characters, they never reach the minimum threshold to trigger penetration mechanics (because they are high damage). And with damage out-scaling defense in long run, penetration will be a bit underwhelming as a stat.
The true challenge of this is on balancing melee attacks of high single-hit damage characters. They are meant to be weak in melee, encouraging players to get close and tie them up. Currently, they have low penetration melee attacks to represent weak melee attacks. Yet, as the minimum threshold is never reached (because they are high damage), a single melee hit (esp. with crits) still do one-hit KO (Imagine Certus swinging his army knife and one-hit KO a lightning claw terminator :P).
An easy fix is to add close-quarter weakness to these characters so they do less damage (then penetration matters).
A day-dream idea (without any consideration on overall balancing) would be to rework penetration mechanism to how much a character's attack ignores armor. This pairs with increase to all characters' armors to compensate.
The graph showed at min 3.56 does not make much sense, you have as variable the damage of both, keeping the armor constant (=100), when in-game, both parameters are increased when the characters progress. In fact, in min 2.33, if we would match Sho Syl against Tjark, the output damage of the Tau is higher, at diamond I. Same in min 6.00, you compare their damage against 600 armor, but in diamond one, I would dare to say that NO CHARACTER has such a low armor value, Sho Syl showed 1417 armor at the beginning of the video, try do the comparison with that, and see how it goes.. Unless you are speaking specifically about Guild raids or other in-game beings with constant armor, from my point of view you are extracting wrong conclusions.
It’s based on guild raids, like we talk about extensively in the video
@@Nandi40k aha so then it is correct, the title of the video mislead me :D
You do know, Brother Jaeger, always hit first, even you have the fastest character eva! xD
BUT, I found a way, with ULF and TJARK, to actually hit BJ first, can you guess, how I did it?
I actually hit BJ with ULF *FIRST!* I didnt know before, it is possible, until I did it and it still works.