Hacking in Fighting Games

[@triqlead]

It's a bizarre feeling when you go up against a random person online and something just feels odd... like what's happening isn't making sense. Then happen to match up with a well known person in the tournament scene (who you know is legit) and the match dynamic feels completely normal.
Great video! Hopefully this stuff gets fixed in T8🤞🏻

[@FrigolitBAWS]

bro recording in a church?

[@Lethal_Swordsman]

🤣🤣🤣

[@funnyusername4774]

I’d attend that service lol

[@Lethal_Swordsman]

@@funnyusername4774 🤣😭😭

[@Purlypurlington]

*halo theme intensifies*

[@aquilescastro1335]

They should make an in-game overlay in tekken 8, it is a learning tool that just makes learning the game more convenient because it allows you to learn at the same time as you play.

[@IAmEnormous]

Yeah, a separate unranked queue with a built in overlay would be best. It really is the best way to learn, I used overlay way back in orange ranks and stopped after a month because it just gets in the way.

[@MrTrombonator]

@@IAmEnormous OR MAYBE just to make it fixed in low to mid ranks, and when you get to "high rank" its "training wheels off"

[@yupyup]

​@@MrTrombonatorit already exists and it's called offline tournaments

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

they should simply normalize block stun animations to be representative of frame data. example: your character should do the same block animation for < -5, then < -1, complete neutral move (0), then for moves that leave you from +1 to +5, +5 to +9, +10 to +12, +13, +14, +15 and > +15. the differences could be subtle, but evident enough to be noticed if you pay attention. for example, +13 to +15 moves could have the same blockstun animation, but with white dust for +13, light gray/brown for +14 and deep gray/brown for +15. also, throws should be color coded, in my opinion, as the animation can be very hard to discern depending on the angle (blue for 1 break, red for 2 and purple as it already is for 1+2). literally showing the properties of a move should be a priority, having to lab moves and characters for basic balanced gameplay is ridiculous. lack of knowledge should NEVER be a factor in a fighting game, in my opinion.

[@mkt-7]

@@gustavogoesgomes1863 That's nice for intermediate to advanced players. For new players I would find it too overwhelming and complicated.

[@8bit_pineapple]

I've got over 2k hours in Tekken 7.
I dont mind people using an overlay too much, I just play incredibly safe korean style for counterhits/wiff punishment anyway.
Only gripe with the overlay is when it gives hidden information, e.g
You can see when a person finishes a string early by kinus frames, when normally there's a mind game of "will he finish the string"

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

I use overlay as I find it absolutely stupid and overwhelming to have to literally lab characters to learn basic punishment instead of playing the f*cking game to learn. and the overlay gives me the unfinished string data everytime regardless of my opponent finishing it or not. usually they always do, and I always get counter hit because I press on reaction to the red number.

[@TheOblomoff]

A month ago Genickus was hosting russian online T7 tournament. A cheater went up to finals.
The winnings were payed before the cheating came up. And he payed the others out of his pocket after the cheater was excluded and banned from further tournaments.
The sad thing is - genickus decided to halt with future tournaments, after those that are planned gets played. Just so that situation doesn't repeat. Now we pretty much don't have russian soul calibur tournaments because of one guy. It's upsetting.

[@zeronim1965]

It's upsetting that there always a chance for cheater to appear where the money coming from :/
So the only way for tournaments to be - offline in one room with searched pads and sticks...

[@alphazyy2651]

“Your self worth is tied to a text colour” 😂😂 that’s the new shirt!!

[@clem9521]

Woww, it's great to see your new video! Even though it's not relevant to this video but thank you for your Tekken 7 beginner guide, your editing and explaination is amazing! I like it so much 😆

[@Hanshakou]

Not taking Tekken online ranked seriously is a symptom, not a cure or workaround by any means. We all paid money to play a game with 0 single player content, shitty online, bad customization and poor performance EXCLUSIVELY to play ranked battle. Bandai Namco has literally re-sold a product throughout 8 years where the main selling point is a blatant mess.

[@rhyanvalk7897]

1:30 The sound effect lmao

[@IAMOP]

I found quick matches give a far better expereince compared to ranked.
No 1 match quits
Better Connections
Little to no rage quits
Most players do longs sets

[@Shlompskii]

Massive dub for this Massive Zug

[@mashar1]

I thought bro would never return.

[@wfjhDUI]

3:10 Damn, the cyclist with his stack listed was a one-man pharmaceutical lab.

[@epicon6]

5:14 Harada said that before covid happened, when actual tournaments were played online, they didn’t place much importance in online play because real offline tournaments were so much more important to them.
So i’m glad covid happened for Tekken 🎉
And now Tekken 8 being an even bigger game and even more world wide, and actually having good netcode, they should focus on online even more

[@redmecka304]

the overlays look like great training tools TBH. They could save a crap ton of time on labbing so someone can clean up their gameplay.

[@Mascabar]

Biggest problem with overlays is that is takes off a huge amount of the mental stack and basically improves every aspect of your play bc you have some software that the opponent doesn't. I feel like this is very obviously cheating and I'm never going to play against on overlay user

[@mr.almezeini647]

i dont think it's that bad. i dont mind when opponents use it. i use it for fps unlock. 60fps is unbearable to me i play on 240fps locked

[@krisztianfrandsen8780]

insanity that people are trying to okay this. And let's take a wild guess i'd guess pretty much everybody here in the comments who are saying this delusional shit is has been or is using it atm. Its so mad that these people can't just suck it up and PRACTICE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. They are litterally saying i don't wanna lab or at least practice punishment on my character so i will shortcut my way into a matchup haha ffs its so lame.
I wouldn't be suprised if they did it against their "hated matchups" or in genereal characters that they simply dont like. I'd even go as far as to say they most likely also rage alot and immediatly turn it on aswell. I won't even wanna hear what this type of person has ready in terms of exscuses i will litterally just leave every kind of communication and stay away from such delusion.

[@robinv1485]

Isn't this kind of an elitist's comment? Practice like everybody else? Do you think it's fair for new people in Tekken 8 to play against people that have played every Tekken since release for example? Why don't you start over like everybody else as well if we want to keep things "fair"? The Tekken community is one for double standards and elitism, it's incredible.
I don't think the overlay is used by delusional people. I think it's a symptom of a larger problem inherent to the game. If these people were cheaters and didn't care, then they'd use more effective methods like the video stated, autoblockers etc. But they are using a tool to help them learn framedata more effectively. Imo this is the devs fault for not offering good tools to do so, it has nothing to do with the community or being delusional. Even Tekken 8 is cumbersome to get into the replay (the replay system is fine tho and really detailed). This is no different than having a friend helping them and telling them the numbers, or having an app on the phone like ALL PROS DO btw.
I couldn't give a slight fuck for what these people that use the overlay do tbf. If they win, it's probably not because of the overlay, you can't react to numbers popping like that. The only thing that does is make a note for later. If it helps them get into the game, power to them. Especially when some can't even lab because they lack DLC characters.
And again, if you think the type of people that is using a tool meant for learning are raging, you're the one who's delusional. You're mistaking the type of people that cheats to troll and win, and someone that wants to learn (even if using such methods). It also does not mean they aren't labbing as well, they're probably using as a reminder. Again, you can't react to numbers if you haven't practiced before (try tekken 8's punish feature, if it's something you never seen you will have to think).
This is also not used in any other fighting game title btw, proving that it's a symptom of the game, not the genre. It's due to the reason why other technical players don't play tekken, and the same reason pros state they don't want the knowledge checks removed, in fact they want more. As soon as they remove that, like it was back then, players from SF and Anime Fighters start to win tournaments, can't have that. And people like you spent so much time learning that it's now sunken cost fallacy, you want to justify it even if it makes no sense, cause you feel important, special. Plus Harada literally said he didn't want anyone knowing how to play the game cause at it's core it's mechanically simple and would lead to boring matches.
I think it's an horrible way to think of things. Because others and me suffered, the next people will have to go through the same exact experience or they are not worth it. Things evolve, and we should evolve with them, if this is a need of players, I wish devs start implementing better methods. To be fair to Tekken 8, it does a marvelous job. And it's noticeable through the players from other communities that are spending hundreds of hours where they would previously have given up just due to the memorization aspect which takes zero skill but a shtton of time.@@krisztianfrandsen8780

[@krisztianfrandsen8780]

@@robinv1485 i respectfully disagree

[@zeronim1965]

@@robinv1485 lol... OFC IT"S FAIR! THAT'S WHY RANKED SYSTEM IS MADE FOR! IF YOU CANT YOU YOUR JOYSTICK - SIT IN LOW LEVELS UNTIL YOU START UNDERSTAND THIS GAME!
If you think that's unfair - burn your diploma... cause you get it with unfair ways while everybody is learning to get it.
Noone is perfect, just grind matches, lose, win, learn and go higher. If you cant, why did you bought online multiplayer game? Are you playing shooters? Do you cheat there because there always someone better than you? So why cheating here is good?

[@McGamaStuff]

I never knew people hacked fighting games until now. wtf?

[@Darkness2Maxrocko]

masterofmotion guy lmao

[@WAZAAAAA-]

Most of the cheating problems in JP fgs can be easily solved with slightly better coding practices and QoL features lol
- Ragequits are solved by proper forfeit detection (like MK10)... just punish it with a loss, you don't need anything else
- Savescumming and infinite ranks are solved by not storing ONLINE rank OFFLINE loool (like SF5/SF6)
- Overlays (and the auto-defense bots that "leech" from the the overlays' frameworks in order to function) are solved by adding complete frame data and hitbox info to the game restricted to training/replay mode (like KI/SG/Punch Planet), so they have no reason to be created in the first place. And no, adding incomplete paid frame data DLC years into the game's lifespan isn't enough lmao

[@mr.almezeini647]

i don't mind the overlay. at least the player is showing effort in the match

[@WAZAAAAA-]

@@mr.almezeini647 oh I don't mind it either, it's a great learning tool, I was just addressing the points of the video

[@zeronim1965]

@@mr.almezeini647 but it's unfair for other players of same rank that trying to learn on their own errors...

[@ObliviousAdobo]

I think some of the people are being rather dense about the frame overlay cheating in the comments. Zug isn't saying don't ever use the overlay mod, he's just saying it's scummy to use the learning tool in a competitive match and really against other players in general who don't know before hand and didn't agree to play with such a tool on during actual matches. If you guys want to learn with it, do it. I've played guineau pig with Joey Fury (he let me know before hand and I agreed and it was just for fun learning) trying out the mod for the first time and it's a super useful tool pretty much everyone can benefit from. The mod even displays the whiff frames which T7's advance frame data display doesn't even do. But yeah to some extent the overlay mod is actually worse than the TAS and perfect blocking cheaters because of the subtly of it for competitive play. Plus people using perfect blocking scripts and TAS tools still don't know frame data from my experience of fighting them. I literally just ended up outplaying them with CH and whiff punishes or just spamming the same move they don't know how to deal with.

[@KeithJamesChua]

Welcome back Zug, nice to see another video from you

[@legosuperbricks9861]

I hate people who defend overlays.

[@Alexman208GR]

Really good video but I have just one issue. I find it weird how you lump together the overlay tool with autoblock or macros. Those two cheating methods are WORLDS apart in effectiveness. Seeing frame data live doesn't help much in the moment, but it does indeed skip a lot of trial and error and needing to research the matchup after your set. So while it's categorically a cheat non the less... is that aspect of fighting games really something we cherish that much?
You make it sound like going out there to learn the matchup is the point... but to me it's a unfortunate evil that keeps us from playing the game. I WISH everyone could know the matchup inherently, but that can't be so the next thing I wish is that for everyone to learn matchups with as little resistance as possible. I believe the overlay tool is very educational, and I would advocate it's usage in a non competitive settings. But seeing it mentioned and lumped together with other cheats as if they offer a similar advantage, I just find it so odd.
Also you can't react to the number unless it's massively minus. When you react to punish a move you're already reacting to the animation of the attack before it lands. By the time you see -10 on the screen it's already too late. You can use the number directly if it's extremely minus, but in those cases you probably can tell it from the animation anyway.
So yeah, I'm not really convinced the overlay can be used directly to gain an advantage, and if you can it's very minor. But there absolutely is a significant advantage when it comes to learning the matchup mid match. And for that reason alone it should be categorically treated as a cheat and not be allowed in competitive spaces. But the amount of cheating between macros/autoblocks and the frame data is worlds apart.
Personally I find the educational value so big, that it should be an optional feature within the base game. Would that really ruin the game? The overlay is just informing you of the frame data, not alike having a friend by your side feeding you tips. It's not doing any actions on your behalf, nor can you use the numbers directly to circumvent having to recognize the animation. If someone has modded the tool so that the frame data pops up before the move lands then that would be super cheating, but it's not what I'm talking about. I basically want a helper that feeds you frame data information after the moment is over. Would that be that bad? Is tekken really about playing a low usage character and blowing up scrubs that don't know where the high in the string is, or that the launcher I'm spamming is actually -15 even though it seems safe? That's not tekken to me, those are just obstacles that keep me from playing tekken.

[@Cormick]

I think if an overlay is considered an awful cheat then playing ranked on Twitch and getting tips in chat should be considered just as bad. It's arguably more effective, because they can also give other matchup tips like what direction to sidestep rather than just block punishes. I've seen popular Tekken streamers ask "What are the frames on that again?" to chat while streaming ranked, and nobody gives them shit for it. The overlay is still a 3rd party tool that reads the game's memory, so I do think it should count as a cheat, but as you said the results are the same as having a friend with a frame data chart sitting next to you and telling you the punishes (which wouldn't be allowed in a tournament either, but it's hard to enforce online).
I don't think people should be given the exact punishes while playing, but some more visual feedback would be nice. I believe Tekken 8 is going to have indicators that show when a move is plus on block, which would be a great start. I'd also just want labbing matchups to be more user-friendly, they should add something like Guilty Gear AC+R's replay takeover so that after a match you can replay situations you were actually in and be able to try different things to counter it.

[@ivanorlando6502]

Tekken should have a gamemode where you play with frame data

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

I hate the way tekken handles learning and I just can't accept basic knowledge about frame data being gated out as "matchup knowledge". tekken is the only fighting game I ever played that does this. this is pathetic, in my opinion. having access to basic knowledge about a move's properties mid-match being considered "cheating" just shows how obssessive this game's community can be

[@ferventfoureyes]

​@Cormick i
thought this was going to be our copium, but it's actually a very thought out argument. Kudos!

[@xHuie]

super monkey ball ost goin hard

[@puchu_5001]

Welcome back Zug!

[@JeshiSama]

Yeah I remember back in the day players would be so desperate for wins they would slow down their router connection to make it more difficult for you to win the match. There’s all types of people out there.

[@Remorsefullyhumble]

I’ll always pull the Ethernet if someone trying to troll or spam 😂

[@8bit_pineapple]

My take for online is the best way to play is in a small community where people know each other.
For now, the best way that can happen is content creators making groups for people to do that.
I agree the game having zero anti-cheat is awful 😅, I put it down to Tekken being ported twice from arcade, to console, to PC (Which is why it is also unstable).
Hopefully Tekken 8 on PC will be less jank.

[@Phantom_Zer0]

i don't care about events, all i have is online so it better be good.

[@CrowFGC]

3:30 a huge problem with the fgc rn

[@MougliFGC]

yehhh you're back!

[@thecpu3949]

welcome back champ!

[@zazenbo]

I miss my wife

[@christopheracevedo6111]

I also miss your wife

[@olishonick]

This is why I hate playing crossplay. Theres always hackers on pc.

[@sunonaro]

i wish i had friends who played fighting games, i was only in a fighting game community once, but then the discord mod bullied me into leaving lol

[@BenAstridge]

I feel like fighting games on consoles have no cheaters whatsoever, at least from what i noticed. Am i wrong?

[@Daylen151]

console still has a good amount of cheaters tough i can also speak for tekken. it's (because of tekkens lackluster anti cheat) pretty simple to cheat even on console.

[@ilypo]

great to see a new upload from you mate!

[@timtim1145]

The legend himself

[@CrowFGC]

“Removing matchup knowledge” sounds like a good thing to try sometime

[@CrowFGC]

Like, moves have properties based on a lot of things including how they are used. Why should i be punished for not knowing a number? A move’s frame data should be, in a perfect world, clear just by looking at animation

[@GDPanda69]

Always hyped to see a Zug upload!

[@AdamSmith-fq3ml]

the GOAT is back!!! 🔥

[@redline841]

Cheating in Fighting Games happen all the time. It's when I get bodied by someone(I can't handle the fact people are better than me)

[@Lozzu]

He’s back!

[@darthligma6366]

Daddy's back

[@sheepys551]

buying dragon bones at the mishima dojo tryina get proc from melee to beat my dad

[@andymrb]

Great to see you back.

[@itsme5562]

Unrelated to video. I have been playing Tekken like crazy these days, but unfortunately Tekken 6, there's this female character called Asuka Kazama, damn she makes me rage quit. I think she's the only character who does this to me, her combos are just smooth.

[@f4slasher]

I had the same experience with Nina.
I try using trouble characters in practice mode, or setting the cpu to use moves i'm bad with!

[@BlueLightningSky]

Try and stop me from cheating when I take my phone out during a match and use the frame data app. TOs don't even bother stopping people in a tournament.

[@RhythmLP]

Welcome back dude!

[@bohdanherasymenko7569]

My parry buff has expired
May I have another one?

[@Itsallover57]

I think cheating in video games is proof evil exists. Theres nothing at all to be gained, for the most part, so its just all about ruining things for other people to feel good about yourself. If thats not the essence of evil, idk what is.

[@yupyup]

Overlay is not on same scale "cheating" as ESP in shooters. All framedata is learnable. It's like having a professional coach immediately shouting current precise framedata situation and move properties. My only beef is with not human inputs and tournament illegal macros (one button motion sequences, binds which are not possible to set up in game settings, one button direction(s) + attack macros etc.)
It's a shame what we're at the point where we can't for sure know if our opponent is legit or not. So don't take online too seriously

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

yesterday I played against a heihachi that didn't miss a single electric and backdashed at lightning speed. maybe he's just gifted, or maybe it really was macros. but it was really weird

[@MegaYoYo]

I hope I get those cheat free lobbies in SF6

[@Dr.Mrs.Pancakes]

I obviously dont like cheating in a serious match of any game, but you will have to face a cheater once in a while and I actually dont mind. Its an opportunity to push myself against a very difficult opponent and at the end of the day the cheater is robbing themselves of the satisfaction of being honestly good.

[@krisztianfrandsen8780]

why try and practice against artificial gameplay when over 95% of the games are against normal players its absurd and a waste of time can be fun for some tryhard who's too much in main character mode to really care about his opponents cheats or whatever but cmon it is a waste of time dude it really is at least for me it is.

[@Dr.Mrs.Pancakes]

@@krisztianfrandsen8780 I don't like it or respect it, but I can't change it so I chose to use it to my advantage and not let it bum me out.

[@jpVari]

I know it's that cheating but that would be such a helpful way to learn frame data

[@imitfdx9632]

he back!

[@jblooue4575]

He’s backkkkkk!!!!

[@bargenejourney]

Happy to see u back ai it again waiting for your next video maybe in how to regain your skill after taking times off and hoping on it again

[@godl3ss]

you could easily make a bot for this game lol

[@IAmEnormous]

Overlay is weird to me because it's the only cheat where you can keep what it gave you after you turn it off, and it doesn't give any advantages to people who already know the matchup. I'll be honest, when I'm getting friends into Tekken and they're despairing at the mountain of knowledge they have to climb, I just send them the overlay. If that compromises the integrity of their 1st Dan matches, oh well, better than them giving up on Tekken entirely.

[@samubertolotto]

To be honest? It's not like a shooting game where the bot litterally points directly at your head, if someone uses macro on Tekken or can see the frame data in real time and i lose to him, i'm 100% that there Is at least 1000 people Who can do that with no cheat and if i lose to him i lose to them too, It's unfair and you are trivialazing the game Just to win ranks(not worth that much), but if i lose i Need to improve because there Is something i've done wrong during the match up that i can work on.
As i said, it's not and instant Lost like other games

[@commanderaki1152]

I'm not sure how I feel about overlays. I never used them for the past years of playing Tekken but the big problem with overlays and people who use them is if they can even punish right.
For example, if the opponent does -14, the question is if this person can react to it even. It's a huge learning curve removed when it comes to frame knowledge instead of just looking it up or studying the animation but I don't believe that turning on an overlay will make them really good. Plus a really good player does not rely on frames from what I see, there's always an exception to everything especially in Tekken like minus does not mean you are actually minus sometimes you can even do a random hopkick or those Feng evasive moves.
Anyways that's what I feel. But I kind of see the reasoning behind why it is cheating. Love the video and the editing as always, really nice to watch these.

[@perfilordy7804]

The thing is that even if he might not react it first time -14 pops up, but the 2nd time he most likely will and he would not have idea how to do it properly without cheat otherwise.

[@commanderaki1152]

@@perfilordy7804 True, they will depend on it. I have someone who uses that zoom out mod and sadly he can't go playing without it. He has a hard time in offline matches.
P.S. All I'm saying is that it just affects so much negatively that in the long run it just because useless than just searching it up and building muscle memory for it. But hopefully people who use it kind of don't rely on the frame that pops up but sadly it might be the case.
It's kind of hard for me to grasp because not all people will put in the hours of course and I myself want players to play Tekken casually and not to study every single detail on the game. At the end of it all I want people to just have fun and play Tekken.

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

@@perfilordy7804 that's because he learned the move's properties, as he would if he took the unnecessary time to lab instead of just playing the game and learning at the same time...
I mean, if you already know a move's properties, what the problem is with having them displayed? and if you don't, isn't that a positive aspect? shouldn't "learning by playing" be simply more desireable than having to lab stuff? should you be benefitted by your opponent not knowing the basic properties of a move?

[@MrTrombonator]

imo obscuring information from the player in, what is maybe the most competetive of genre, is just crappy and outdated game design, i played around 900 hours in tekken 7, and its my first fighting game, and with hindsight i can tell that AS A BEGINNER i would enjoy competetive PvP much more, if i had the needed info right there on my screen, i still to this day didnt use the overlay, and BTW YOU HAVE TO BUY DLC CHARACTER TO LAB VS THEM, HELLO HARADA? smug fuck in shades

[@bluewolf8873]

I don’t have enough knowledge yet…. But i think people are already cheating in sf6

[@ilyamuromez6412]

I know i dont wanna sound like a scrub but if Ranked and online doesnt matter then why even play? You dont have fun nor do you get rewarded for actually improving outside of offline scenes.

[@Beatzus]

Where can I buy cheat

[@Kejchi]

I use the capabilities of the overlay for 120 fps and training. If Tekken 8, Street Fighter 6 and the new Mortal Kombat won't have 120 fps then I don't even know what to do. I understand that the game engine is tied to 60 fps, but if overlay gives me the ability to interpolate frames, so the engine can also. Also, don't hide the framerate behind a paid dlc. Dream on, dream on...

[@LEBUMON]

3:42 game name ?

[@IAMOP]

Project L, not released yet

[@LEBUMON]

@@IAMOP Why not Project W

[@Hordebloow]

the tekken overlay isnt cheating lmao you cant react to moves using it either

[@Hordebloow]

you should have to go into practice and check the frame data for each move individually because thats what *i* did

[@HyperFangz_YT]

its cheating because it gives you real time match up knowledge while your opponent has to rely on their memory
i dont really see how this is an arguement

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

@@HyperFangz_YT I use overlay and I would love if it was just a feature of the game. I would actually enjoy knowing that my opponent knows my move's properties and that I have to play considering that they are able to punish me if I overextend. it's best for everyone. I can't see why basic information is a problem, an overlay won't press buttons for you. if you rely on your opponent not knowing what your moves does, I have bad news...

[@BigDaddyWes]

So like what was the point of this video? Just to show that you know how to use cheats? Cuz that's all I really got from this.

[@syzzrp]

theres more to it than that lmao

[@ClutchClick]

Oh noice a Zug vid