I'm a violinist, spent 40 of my 50 years on this planet playing. It's safe to say I'm obsessed - even had to spend some time with a psychologist trying to find a balance between 'real life' and music. Practicing hours a day, teaching, gigging, recording, busking and on and on. Played for thousands but the moment that defined me as a musician was during lockdown. I was asked to sneak into a friends house and play to her. She had reached the end of her cancer journey and had very little time left. I'd been there a handful of times and the final night I went she was in a hospital bed that had been brought into her living room. Her nurses had just left and her husband (they'd been together since primary school) lay down next to her. I sat at the end of the bed and played The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, then morphed into something I could never recreate. They drifted away into sleep and i quietly let myself out. I sat on a bench at the backdoor and cried. She never regained consciousness and passed away the next day. Knowing that the last thing she consciously heard was music that I was gifted to be able to play has deeply affected me. All the years of hard work and practice - I've sometimes played a note for hours on end to perfect its tone that noone else would notice - all led me to that audience of 2. The pinnacle moment when it all made perfect sense as to why I was born. Those last few totally improvised and solo notes, were created in essence just for those two human souls. I was honoured to have been there. I played at her funeral and wake, which was a kneesup in our local pub, but none of it matched the quiet 5 minutes max it took for her to let go and slip away in her husband's arms. Music has many faces, and I meet new ones everyday. Like a passionate foodie discovering a new taste or an artist creating their masterpieces or even a sports person who is at the top of their personal and professional best we all have our 'thing'. To try and quantify any passion, you are likely to fail. All I think JP was trying to do was, just that TRYING. Peace Out.
A touching story - thank you for sharing. I can relate to your experience, as I've been blessed to be a part of one or two of those private, deeply personal, completely magical moments in life. Moments that take you beyond _feeling_ emotions, into _living_ them. Sorrow, elation; resentment, and gratitude; pride and humility; love, and... loss; these things are experienced simultaneously and equally. Moments of profound connection, where music is the tie that binds it all together somehow. In these moments it is possible to catch a glimpse of the divinity of balance, and the oneness of things..
Beatiful story. Only by reading it I like to think that that woman, on that night felt it was ok to let go: in the arms of his beloved husband listening to deeply emotional music....it was ok, it was time to stop the fight. Even if you're dying, going out like that means you won.
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things" .... Tom Petty
I'm aware Jordan is someone who appreciates debate, so I'm hoping that we can open up this question further. I'm not saying his arguments aren't valid but I don't full agree with it all. Tell me what you think the meaning of music is? I also haven't watched any of Jordan's work before this, so my take isn't based on anything other than what he is saying in this video. I was sent this video to react to.
You make your own meaning for music. It's not something objective. It could be your escape, your drug, your companion, your imagination, anything you like it to be. What I don't agree is John Cage's thesis that all sounds are music. For me it must go through our intelectual process.
I've read a lot of Jordan Peterson's work/musings. I find that I agree with him more than I disagree with him. His words are often cherry-picked and taken out of context - which leads to misunderstanding and castigation. When the media portrays an individual as incendiary or extremely polarizing, I often take that judgement with a grain of salt and go investigate the person further by going directly to the source, research from there and then generate my own opinion. But that's just my practice.
“Ordinary people can achieve amazing things just by having a guitar and believing in themselves” That struck a chord. Inspirational and beautifully put, Justin. 💖🙏🏻🥰
I always believed that music is the closest to magic that we will ever get to. To be able to shift someone’s mental and physical state by merely organising sounds is seriously magical
precisely. All beauty is this way. Doesn't make sense that we should have such an emotional attachment to it - music, stories, paintings, etc - but we do. Beauty is the world giving back, reminding us "oh, this place IS wondrous after all."
He starts with the premise that Nihilists can find meaning in music to explain that music brings meaning to all of our lives. You don't have to be Nihilistic to find that meaning, but even a Nihilist can.
nicely said. Music (really, just beauty in any sensory way) is a thing that makes us grateful to life. But those things are beautiful for no describable reason. Sure, one can say "patterns," but JP's not saying 'which' patterns like he's prescribing some sort of formula - just that there's a way in which beautiful things resonate with our consciousness that gives us the feeling we're missing when we're in despair and nihilistic. And I can't argue with him. I call it 'meaning.'
@@nektekket852 liking it or not is fine, as you say cannot argue taste. i think my comment was for someone who argued a technical comment about a skill or else but the comment was deleted
"Music is the universal language. ... it has the ability to transcend and convey every human emotion that exists without saying a word." - Edward Van Halen
Music is the glue that holds everything together. I'm a loner and sort of a misanthrope but music makes everything more tolerable - it weaves life together. I just picked up my guitars again after years of not playing...I found my lost soul in that guitar case. Really enjoying your channel & views on music and artists etc.
I've said it so many times, I think music is the greatest thing as humans we will ever make. It's the purest thing we have ever done, and ever will do.
@@bjorndunderbeck I'm not so sure about all of those. Animals eat medicinal plants, so I'm not sure humans can take credit for medicine. Surgery is a pretty neat trick though, and resetting bones, etc. And perhaps at one time, domesticated dogs were a wonderful "creation" of humanity, but I think unfortunately humanity kept domesticating them until we jumped the proverbial shark. Dog breeds are warped and not to the advantage of the dogs themselves. I just saw a couple of happy weiner dogs that could barely move in their elongated bodies with short legs. And how often do I see tiny dogs like chihuahuas that seem perpetually frightened and nervous? Is that a wonderous creation, or a monstrosity? What about French Bulldogs that can barely breathe because of their compressed snout shape? What about labradors and retreivers and shepards with genetically bad hips? I invite you to reconsider what a marvel modern dogs are and see that perhaps we humans are screwing them up in usual arrogance that we do things better than nature does.
I surrender to this statement. I love all the arts… But sometimes when I’m listening to a piece of music I’ll say that’s worth 100 paintings or that’s an entire building. And I know it’s not right to compare. I mean the funny thing is you can look at a paint or painting and think what isn’t that kind of mechanical? Although at the same time you can be energetic and lyrical and beautiful. And in order to make music you have to do some thing and master something that is intellectual and emotional and mathematical and mechanical. But when you experience and it’s pure poetry. But I think you can say that about a great tennis or basketball player, as well. It’s all part of the experience of living inside the material world bounded by the rules of physics. The music itself is governed by physics. The experience can be so divine. Ain’t it great to be alive?
For me it's a very personal experience it's not about art or science. It happens that you find yourself listening to this or that and it's not about how technically good or how popular it is. There's something about that artist or that music that makes a big impression on you at a particular time and place in your life.
@@JayFunningham For example a songwriter is writing songs that a person listening relates to their own experiences whether the writer intended that sort of meaning or not it can come across to the listener as something deeply personal to them. To other people the song may just be rubbish but music can be a unique experience. In itself music is artistic and technical but how I get into it is not planned. I go with my gut. If my friends laugh at me they laugh at me. It's just at a certain time and place a band or piece of music impresses itself on me, it stays in my mind and I'm very happy for it to stay there.
@@levitation25 I think what you’re describing is art - the way it speaks to us on an individual level and our own experiences and personality informs what we get from it. ❤️
When I hear Peterson talk about music I interpret it as something that’s going on with your core philosophies and principles, the ones you may not even be aware of if you are roaming through life as a reactionary. Music and it’s patterns being an allegory to life itself can affect people on the surface and deep below where your conscious doesn’t go. Sometimes if the path you are on moves with the chosen patterns in a song it can connect and remind your soul that there is meaning to life. You may not notice when it happens, but when it does, and for those moments, your self meets what once was.
Being young punk rocker in the early 80's, I was anything but nihilistic. What ever I was expressing through my music or in the mosh pit was directed at those that didn't care about the environment and planet, and our future on it. It wasn't that the music was saving those of us in the mosh pit from our nihilism. It was more like the chaos we were creating was a call to wake up and start dreaming of a better world. In essence it was a call to someone like JP to step into the pit with us instead of over analyzing life and be alive. But to each his own.
Well said. An old school punk myself to me it's the exact opposite of nihilism. It's very idealistic. Maybe it can be simplistic, but that's not nihilism.
As a life long musician and someone who finds Jordan Peterson completely frivolous and ridiculous, I truly appreciate your measured take. I aspire to your calm.
@@TheAlibabatree Being a whiny soiboi that cries about the dumbest things and can't form a coherent argument. Have you read 'Maps of Meaning'? It's utter 🐴💩. 12 Rules is a bad joke on kids that need better parents.
@@TheAlibabatree i think the main criticism comes from his label as a "thinker" when his most famous ideas as seen in "12 rules of life" are somewhat amateurish and as novel in their discourse as any other self help book that has come out in the last 20 years.
@@tcrijwanachoudhury With all due respect, i dont think you know much about him. That book is just that. A book. And it happens to have improved millions of struggling peoples lives, so i truly don’t understand the arrogant elitism towards something that is beneficial to humanity. But, if you want to have an intellectual sparing match, i would suggest you dig a bit deeper than just his one self help book aimed at, and beneficial to a specific demographic.
@@TheAlibabatree Jordan Peterson is a nonsensical pseudo intellectual at best and dangerous influence at worst. He offers so little of value in his word salads its hard to critique because its so rambling and self-absorbed. By the time he is crying in this video my eyes have rolled so far back into my head I may have choked on them just a bit. If its improved your life, more power to you I guess, but personally I find his work more detrimental than beneficial to modern society.
I found this discussion so valuable. It's interesting to see music being thought of by essentially 2 different types of schools really. For Dr Peterson's obvious love for music, he is still a layman in the sense that he's not a musician, doesn't necessarily have the knowledge that Justin has from years of experience as a working musician. But the good Dr's approach to philosophy, music's profound impact on people I think is true. The core of this whole conversation is that music has an undeniably massive impact on people and individuals. I think there's something profound just in that. Whether you're a rockstar or an academic, music can and does bring people together
@@rosshardinguk From what I've understood he's done his fair share of playing, although not on a professional level. He's talked about himself playing Beethoven sonatas which takes som practice and gives you quite a deep understanding of music I would argue. Although probably not as deep as a professional musician once again.
@@jonatanbefrits5609 I did not know Dr P had musical knowledge. But in my own opinion just listening to Beethoven would give one insight into the massive depths and power of music. Listen to the Piano Sonata No.14 and you shall be moved.
I've never ever met a nihilistic punk, quite the opposite. Nihilism, in my experience, is a synthom suffered by people in a deep depression or a bi polar low. Mr. Peterson has a long time fascination with nihilism, good vs evil, etc and as a psychologist is probably over exposed to such maladies in his practice. The rest of the world is way more optimistic and joyous 😊
nihilism is often misinterpreted and im somewhat surprised Peterson plays into it, nihilism is the creation of your own meaning in a world that doesn't give meaning to you. it assumes that religions are fallacious, capitalism and consumerism are at the very least meaningless if not outright bad, and that the various elements of society are continuing to drain meaning from everyday life, basically how humans in the Stone Age had meaning in there life as simple as getting enough food for the week--without that direct need, or with it addressed, daily life boils down into a grind where you are never really going up, nor down. nihilism is the recognition (or agreement with) the idea that the world is meaningless and therefore we as humans need to make our own meaning. actual nihilism is essentially the philosophy of most people who don't subscribe to a religious power, its not a reflection of work ethic or morality or anything like that. theres a lot more to it, like epistemological nihilism (the idea that nothing can be known or communicated _for sure)_ , or cosmic nihilism (the idea that the universe is unintelligible) and its genuinely some of the most interesting stuff to think about and either apply or learn to steer away from. Jordan Peterson, when referring to nihilism, tends to actually refer to either absurdism or philosophical pessimism, both of which share the ideas of the meaningless of life but both are also more "life is pain and the only rewards are death and seeing the absurdity of those around us"
Not sure what time period you are familiar with but in the 80s California punk scene there were plenty of nihilists. Not that their weren't idealistic punks but that was not the norm. I was there and that was certainly what I observed. The UK punk scene or the East Coast punk scene (the Ramones) may have been different.
I appreciate how open minded you are about things. It's something that became really clear to me when you did the NFT video. You don't just talk the talk, you're one of those rare cats that really seems to walk the walk. I endeavour to be more like you and to stop and think about the assumptions I hold about people and ideas and to just slow down and think a bit before I react. I want to thoughtfully consider the information I'm being presented. I usually fail more often than I succeed but I'm trying to make that change. I appreciate you and this channel. Cheers sir.
@@michaelshannon9169 I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did you see the NFT video? I did. You realize that when this video went up, it had a different title and it changed to what it currently is? I didn't say which side I come down on but the massive amount projection you're doing here makes your position clear. Tell me though, what's wrong with being open minded? Do you find it threatening when people don't adhere to strict dogma? That's ok though Michael, just keep feeling good about yourself for insulting people on the internet you know nothing about. If it makes you happy, fill your boots friend.
@O.T. Oss, just so you know, the video of the title changed because it always changes.....it's a clickbait tactic people use to get more views. This channel does it on every video, it annoys me (and other people).
@@tigs6639 ah, very clever. Is title changing "a thing" now then? I've noticed thumbnail upgrades, but often big channels will go back & do it for branding purposes.
Music is emotion made real, tangible .. it can make you cry like a baby or bonce like a ball. Its the only thing in life that has really really ever ment anything to me. It touches my soul while healing my heart and when its done right it can be like a life shot to your very essence.
I don't think he's saying music, or even punk music specifically, is only for people who struggle with nihilistic dread. He's saying it's something that can be used to help people in that situation. And that probably his personal experience. He's not saying that's all there is to it. He's saying that's one thing that makes music so valuable and wonderful. It's something that brings comfort to people and brings meaning and purpose. When I'm feeling down on my luck I listen to certain songs. I'll go for a run and find motivation from those stories told and the melodies. So for me it's not necessarily an antidote to nihilism, but rather a motivational force to keep me strong when I'm struggling. I think Peterson is very much speaking about his own struggle with nihilism and in this video he's trying to inspect why music brings him such comfort and meaning. Perhaps a little bit of projection on the rest of the world, but I definitely see where he's coming from. I think we can all remember a time where we felt like giving up on life and we heard music that made us feel better.
Music has made me cry. Helped me through dark times, almost spiritual connection with the pain of an d fragility of an artist ( Cash with Rick Rubin helped me sit in a car in the dark and cry but turned those dark thoughts of self pity to positivity). Music is an emotional release. Allows connection with strangers. A safe zone usually at a gig. An area to be expressive such as a mosh pit, to connect you with a moment in time. To flash back to specific scenarios in your childhood. It’s quite a powerfully manipulative medium at a specific time in your life. As always, interesting blog.
The guitarist is Luke Mcqueary. I saw a year ago when I went to pick up my puppy and this kid was unbelievable. He was at Robert's Western Bar where Johnny Hiland used to play. Johnny is a brilliant country player but Luke is like Hendrix meets Brent Mason. I totally understand what Jordan was experiencing but I experienced myself. Def check out Luke Mcqueary if you get a chance.
I appreciate your perspective here and agree with almost everything you've said. I do, however, think you and JP were saying two different things. Music very well could be an antidote to nihilism, especially from the perspective of a clinical psychologist. Many people can receive an antidote for some sort of affliction without ever experiencing the symptoms.
I think his reaction to the Nashville bar gig is probably because he hasn't experienced it before. Like with most things in life, the first time gives you such a massive buzz, but if you continue to do it all the time, that buzz fades and you have to go more extreme to get the same buzz. It's why so many of us burn out on out passions. It's also why people who look up to musical or sporting heroes don't understand why they may be unhappy even though they seem like they are on top of the world. The journey of getting there is often torturous.
2:31 Nihilism includes the idea “that nothing can be known or communicated”. I think that’s where the magic of music works as an antidote: when the track comes on or one starts a jam with the band, suddenly for no known/knowable reason one feels connected - a feeling that the nihilistic mind generally does not feel and, however fleeting, takes hold of the entirety of one’s being for a moment in time. Perhaps one could say that connection is the antidote to nihilism and music is all about connection. I have developed a rather nihilistic outlook on life but I believe it is only a feeling, sometimes I’ve got to stop myself believing that it’s here to stay, it’s only a feeling, anyway 🤙🏼
This is exactly right! You nailed it. Connection and empathy and natural solidarity with one another, the wonder we feel when we catch a glimpse of the same plane we are all on, is indeed the antidote to nihilism. It reminds us why we should give a shit. We are connected, we are not alone, when we give freely and generously of ourselves we find meaning. Music is one of the most powerful and direct lines to this feeling. Jordan Peterson is definitely reductive in his analysis of "what music is", but the point about it being a portal to a place of genuine meaning and connection - something that reminds us of how beautiful and awesome humanity is - is right on the money (and something I would extend to all forms of art).
Music is salvation.... its how I feel feelings... emotions... am that person who's reality is that there's no point .... just a repetitive existence until the inevitable.... were the only input I can have my self is when it ends.. music at least takes me out the misery and energises my thoughts my body ... can give me a euphoria of joy and peace.. Music is beautiful, it triggers ignites awakens calms sooths releases ... I believe it to be a medication for my mind..
To sum up his point of, "music is the antidote to nihilism"; simply he is saying that in music-there is meaning. Even a punk who indulges in nihilism will go to a punk show and dance in a mosh pit (that is meaning) and if you take that idea, that even a nihilistic person can find meaning in a song; clearly, music must have real meaning. So then you compare that to finding meaning in your own life. Think of it as an analogy-in music, if you take a song that typically the artist has something important to say, that you as the listener can relate to, and you add that with harmony and structure; you can find meaning. Without having something to relate to, without the structure, without the harmony; it now just becomes noise (noise=nihilism.) It isn't a meaningful song until you add the ingredients of something important to relate to, harmony, and structure-only THEN will you find meaning; only THEN will you want to dance. So essentially he is using that formula and applying it to life-if you take something important that relates to you, and you add that with structure and harmony; then you can find REAL meaning in your life; and then you can dance to life-almost as if you're dancing to a song that is real meaningful to you.
I was a punk because the music was great and it spoke to something in me. Also, we didn't mosh, we pogoed. I was just a fab teen having fun. No deep analysis necessary, wanted or needed. It's four chords and the truth, Mr. Peterson.
I don't think JP was crying because of the guitar solo. I think it was because he has spent so much of his life analyzing pain & suffering that witnessing joy, happiness and moments of carefree bliss is such a turnaround that it makes him emotional. As a clinical psychologist, his job was to hear his clients recount their worst experiences & describe their deepest fears, anger & depressive moments. His academic research revolves around that & a historical violence, like the Russian gulags and whatnot. The man has spent so much of his life looking at the deep, dark, black crevices of existence, so even momentary flashes of light make his eyes water.
I would argue that you just agreed with what he said. "It's not amenable to rational criticism" is his way of stating that music is way more than can be analyzed. He mentions some common attributes that he has noted but is admitting that music itself defies rational definition.
@@independenceltd. .. It's amazing how much psycho-waffle Peterson spews on any given topic... Mind you, when he tries to analyse society and politics he makes about 1 good point for every 10 lousy, half-arsed, straw man arguments he makes.. If he'd stuck to insulting Woke pronoun zealots of the Transhumanist Movement on steroids I'd have kept my respect for him, but's he talks so much waffle and rubbish I now almost always find him annoying.. This talk is no exception.
@@independenceltd. .. This Peterson talk is 90% intellectual psycho-waffle that didn't explore the Psychology of Music well at all... Peterson is overrated, trumped up and often confused.. Did a good job on the Cancel Culture and Marxist Gender Confusion movements but the rest of his talks are not worth a listen IMO, and I've listened to quite a lot on a (far too) broad range of subjects since he became a PRO SPEAKER on the media circuit, promoting his Conservative self-disciplining manuals and now talking about all sorts of political issues he knows far too little about.. He's so Conservative his extreme anal retention followed by bouts of verbal diarrhoea is cause by his own head repeatedly disappearing up his own drug-addled arse... -- I could slag him off all day as I'm a personal responsibility promoter via Constitutional Direct Democracy and Peterson is vehemently against Direct Democracy and pro Constitutionalism.. D.D. has become a bit of an obsessive pet hate for him... We need need a Libertarian Constitution that requires overwhelming absolute majorities to change or temporarily suspend laws and rights as trusting political parties and Dear Leaders is extremely personally irresponsible. The man's a bit of a lame brain, and a joke... Too much fine wine and too many highly addictive hard drugs + old age.
There’s a fantastic simple quote from Andy Warhol….I think it goes “An experience has no atmosphere until it’s a memory”. Music has the innate ability to move you through time and gives an atmosphere to so many things you experience as a human being.
I wouldn't say The Ramones were nihilistic. They really put out songs for anyone. And The Clash were a bit serious but positive. And I love SWANS. Taking music back to it's tribal, ritualistic origins of noise and rhythm. Music has been my first choice since I was a little kid. Other choices in my life have diminished or fallen away through the years except music.
I agree with you about The Ramones. They are punk rock with the word rock heavily underlined. Almost a bit of pop sensibility in there too with the catchiness of some songs. If we’re talking about nihilism in punk most of the “blame” surely lies with John Lydon
@@jethrobradley7850 Indeed. Good old John has used the same attitude for decades now. I actually enjoyed P.I.L. more than the Sex Pistols. Well, P.I.L. with Jah Wobble and Keith Levene. Very experimental.
@@jethrobradley7850 I was fortunate to find an old vinyl copy of Keith Levene's Violent Opposition from 1987 last year. Keith is certainty underrated as a guitarist. You can tell The Edge was influenced by Levene's style of playing. Speaking of The Edge, at least Lydon never went the way of dad rock like U2 has in the last couple of decades.
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks punks are nihilists is just funny. Also that he thinks being anxious, upset and aimless is part of nihilism. He was like, "well nihilists are angry, and punks are angry, so punks must be nihilists." I'm honestly impressed with how many absurd leaps he was able to make is such a short clip.
I believe that the long and short of it is that we NEED music. For some it's classical music, for others it's death metal and for another group it's hip hop, etc. What you, Justin, say of tribalism is so true - even to the point where one can almost deny one's appreciation of other generes because it's not the music of their peers. Throughout the ages music has been a way of not only being an emotional expression but also a political one and that has never changed. A question I often ask myself is, do our values and where we align ourselves affect the music we listens to or, does the music influence one's values? We know that different types of music affect our brains and thus our emotions in different ways but what of our values? Of all art, music is certainly the most important and most accessible to most. It's wonderful and I have deep respect for anyone who can write a piece of music.
i would say that music is probably one of the most important things in this world, regardless of what else is happening at any one-time music is what connects people, from the person next door to the person a world away. the love people have for music, bands, artists and so on is unmeasurable. people will defend and argue till the cows come home to protect what they love.. or to tell what they dislike. without a doubt, i can say that music for me is the most important thing i have to keep me going and ticking by in this mad mad world. i have no musical skill to be able to play or sing and i certainly cant understand how music is put together, I'm ok with that because not knowing means i can enjoy music for its purpose of being written and played.
For me, music enhances life and often reflects it. Music and lyrics can be a form of distilled empathy as well as mad fucking fun, it can make your heart race or make you cry with sadness or joy. Saw The Damned many times as a kid, it was never nihilistic but always celebratory, in the moment, utter fucking life affirming joy. A powerful experience for a 16 year old kid. Music has had a powerful influence on my life.
Your music has always been good to listen to, but actually you're an interesting guy to hear speak as well. You make lots of great points and cool that you're making videos so we can hear more than just music but your thoughts and opinions on things too
Petersons arguments always seem to rest pretty heavily on confidently made assertions which aren't supported, tested or challenged. For example, his statement that "Non-patterned music is noise" is not the immutable fact he presents it as. Simiilarly, his assertion that "the world's made of patterns" is something you could argue strongly against. Sure, there are lots of patterns but there's lots of randomness too, this doesn't support his 'point' though so it's just discarded. As Justin points out he makes a bunch of sweeping generalisations about Ramones fans and "punk rockers" which seem to be there mainly to support the rest of his argument, and suggest that maybe he doesn't actually know that many 'punks'. This is why he likes appearing on Joe Rogan stuff where he's just allowed to twitter on at length unchallenged while Joe and the audience take another bong hit and congratulate themselves on how deep they are. The only time I've seen Peterson actually challenged he came off as a lot less smart and a lot less convincing. The crying bit was just weird.
Sorry, hadn't watched the whole clip when I was moved to comment and Justin covers some of these points. In my view music is a fundamental part of the human condition and humans have been making 'music' in some form or other since we were living in caves. Different people seek different things in music whether it's the elegance and sophistication of a symphony, or the thumbing bassline in a nightclub which requires no thought but just makes you want to move. Sometimes the same person will seek different things at different times. And many people will hum or whistle to themselves as they do other things; isn't that a form of music making? It seems to me that was Peterson was trying to articulate with his "best guitar player in the world" story is the feeling of appreciating live music as a group experience, the thing that makes live music so fantastic. I can see how that would make one feel that music is the antidote to nihilism, it's kind of how it makes us all feel. But I agree with Justin, and most other commenters on here it seems, that it's much, much more than that.
Peterson far more brilliant than you give him credit for. The times he has gotten challenged like with Cathy Newman or the lengthy GQ interview, he basically destroys them.
@@kickstar1 you are not addressing the points made, simply asserting your admiration for JP without supporting arguments. This is perfectly valid and please do not consider yourself "cancelled", but it is *not* persuasive.
Mr Hawkins, in listening to both of you, I believe that what both of you are saying is that if not for music, Nihilism would run rampent. Music is the cure for it, not the cause.
My sense is both JBP and Justin are right on this. Music may be meaningful because it reflects back to us or maybe opens us up to the patternicity of the world. Justin takes this further, by pointing out that we as individuals find meaning and an opportunity to express ourselves when belonging to a group, tribe, band or whatever. The music that calls to us on the level of individual opens us up to a deeper patterned reality. It also provides us the opportunity to express our unique selves through the higher mode, the group.
I definitely don’t always agree with Jordan Peterson, but I do appreciate his perspectives. Make me think. He also doesn’t always agree with his own opinions. He likes to think out loud and he is open to changing his thought process on the fly. That’s why I like him. It’s an interesting take on music. I see where he’s going with it. I think all he means is the music gets you on a deeper subconscious level that connects you to life and something more magical all at once. Or can connect you to pain in a way that helps you deal with it. Or love or joy or whatever. And the rhythmic nature of it just gets to you physically and you can’t help but move.
He is a terrible person who promotes western supremacy through fascist dogwhistles and repackaged nazi propaganda. Cultural Marxism is cultural bolshevism.
I think people give Peterson far too much credit. When you actually look into what he says, he’s either stating very obvious and hardly contentious or very ill informed. He tends to make rather large logical leaps, which is possibly a symptom of him thinking while talking however that’s a very dangerous thing to do, especially as his speeches/statements are often taken out of consequence, and often ‘cites’ articles and studies which don’t exist, are very unreliable or have very different findings to what he infers them too.
@@AnthonyConstable Jordan Peterson is a raving loon. His points are nonsensical. You should read about the history of blood libel propaganda and the origins of 'cultural bolshevism'. Your lobster daddy is a fascist hack faux intellectual who sells the idea of self responsibility while abdicating all personal control of his faculties in favor of clinically inducing a coma to shortcut his recovery from addiction. After excoriating others for addiction problems he pays money normal people don't have to chest his way to recovery, against the professional advice of anyone with a medical licence. Stop following lying maniacs
@@harveysmith3428 “Cites articles and studies that don’t exist “..... what a load of nonsense. If you don’t agree with Peterson’s views that’s fair enough but there’s no need to lie about him.
I think Jordan Peterson's main claim is that music points to the existence of actual meaning vs imagined meaning that a nihilist thinker would fear to find. Most people experience a sense of meaning or affirmation of their experiences through music. It's been said that the mind cannot accept what the heart cannot confirm. Perhaps music points to broader truth if we have the ears to hear?
He exists to spread fascism. That's why oil billionaires pay him to spread old nazi conspiracies like cultural bolshevism. Oh sorry, it's called cultural marxism now. The nazi party needed to tighten up their phrasing
or maybe that’s just a bunch of claptap and by beginning one’s argument with labeling your strawmen as “nihilists” in opposition to your supposed noble defense of something everyone enjoys is dishonest to begin with. I could make the same claim about ice cream and nice weather being evidence of “the beauty of the soul” and then say that “nihilist thinkers” would disagree. And then the audience boos at those made-up monsters!
@@granitesevan6243 There are different types of meaning. Connotation, denotation for starters. But Peterson is deliberately vague on what he calls “meaning.” He’s using it as a magical word, a codeword among lazy thinkers like himself. And if you don’t agree, you’re a nihilist. Also, quantum.
I feel Jordan Peterson has been showing up more and more on reaction channels. As someone who enjoys watching your videos I really hope this is the first and last Jordan Peterson video we see from you.
I hope there are more. Why should Justin have to pander to the sensibilities of liberal snowflakes who are triggered by the mere mention of someone who happens to disagree with you?
@@MrRhurbarb because he doesn't say anything. He just makes assertions and whines when people don't adhere to his demands because he's the ultimate snowflake.
He's essentially talking about the beauty of art and it's ability to lift us out of nihilism, depression or just general sadness into pure 'awe'. What's not to understand?
Music is multifunctional for me, but at its base, it provides me with a sense of meaning and direction. As an example, I’ve been singing and guitaring since I was about 10 years old, and multiple times I’ve fallen off the wagon, and not played or written music for months at a time, and have fallen into a deep spiral of depression, feeling I have no direction of real purpose in life. As soon as I start writing, everything falls into place. And to add to that, music transports me to memories, it amazes me that you can feel a very specific feeling, and be listening to a song, then for years not listen to that song again, and when you pop it on almost a decade later, you feel exactly how you felt all those years ago. Plus, some of my favourite musical memories of those where I’ve been with friends, seeing a band I love, and dancing and moshing and singing along and forgetting about all of life’s problems. It’s the best art form life can offer us.
One thing that’s interesting and magical about music is. It is always a fact that humans are not perfect. But when musicians record a great song, that is literally perfection captured. It’s made by flawed people but it’s perfect in it’s own way.
Sometimes we look too deeply. Music has a direct link to the emotions that are not necessarily logical. Like much of life, it is better to experience it rather than looking too deeply. Music can make you cry, laugh, excite and uplift.
I don't think he's saying that's ALL music is... I think he's arguing that music makes us feel deep emotions, which are antithetical to nihilism. If you look into existentialism they argue that nihilism is sort of the base level philosophy that we have to overcome as humans- which is what I think he's getting at. Many Punks have nihilistic views (whether they're fully aware of it or not) and he was arguing that their deep appreciation of the music is somewhat contrary to those views. (But he did sound slightly dismissive in this clip). Obviously Peterson comes across as a bit of a shapiro-esque music noob in his little bow tie and all that but he likes lots of interesting bands (for e.g. Acade Fire, Tom Waits and Beach House) and and even plays music himself. But thanks for the video! I love discussing music and philosophy and am a big fan of the channel.
when you're playing in a band, and the song you're playing suddenly transforms into one of those highly focused time bubbles, where it leaves reality and enters that zen-space where you can feel the magic - that's such a rare perception, that most people never get a glimpse of....that's the rare occurrence that is so wonderful about playing music.
I guess you could say that Music and Harmony is proof that there is in built order in a Universe that seems so chaotic. We didn’t invent music, we discovered it in nature.
@@stereofidelic67 Music is a sort of audible mathematics. We use tempered tuning and measurement to calculate a set of notes, and from that we can pair notes that work well together because each note has undertones of certain other notes in it when it reverberates. But it has to be relatively precise, otherwise we get dissonance- Musical entropy.
"not everybody can, or should" is a rare bit of cynicism from your normally positive attitude. Maybe you meant not everybody can do it well, and not everyone 'should' in that they don't have to, but music is for everyone. Not everyone can or should do it as a career, but everyone can do music.
Excellent topic, music is escapism to me. I’ve played drums most of my life and can attest how music can really move people in one direction or another. For some it’s just enough to tap their foot while others are completely immersed. Maybe Jordan Peterson should’ve played guitar? 🎸 It’s rewarding to be a musician when there’s people moving and reacting to your music.
Being in the mosh pit at a Ramone's concert is one of my most cherish memories. Broken pinky finger and squashed toes made it even the more memorable. Anarchy just means freedom and that is the crux of all music. The feeling of having the freedom to simply feel without judgment
I love your videos but I think that on this one you have sort of missed what JP was trying to explain, he isn't trying to label any specific fans of any specific genres as nihilists, he was using the nihilistic belief system as a framework for which to explain why music is so important as it illicits a primal response that supercedes any learned, rational thought, i.e "nothing means anything" BUT " I can't help feeling something when I hear this song"
@@rasputozen would you appreciate it if someone stole your car? Would you steal someone else's car? If you follow it to its logical conclusion, the position that everything is meaningless could be used to justify actions that hurt others. Not a very difficult one, guy.
@@Matthewtaylorn I wouldn't appreciate those things while I'm alive, you're right. It's not mutually exclusive for actions to have consequences and for those consequences be ultimately meaningless though.
Making music is probably the closest thing I have ever felt to love or a religious experience. I love recording music. Creating something out of nothing, bringing order from chaos, discovering a melody or Harmony feels meaningful and fulfilling. I've felt the same way when I've found a new band that really speaks to me, not just on the lyrics but the musical level. There is a connection with music and the heart.
Part of what makes this conversation difficult is that the ways in which we produce and consume music in today's world are different than they were historically. Music first showed up alongside group dances, festivities, and rituals. It served particular social functions and wasn't produced simply to be enjoyed as art. The majority of music to today is made consciously *not only* as art, but as a commodity. That's pretty WEIRD (in the technical sense - Western Educated Industrial Rich Democratic). As such, I doubt contemporary analogies will help answer the question of what music "means."
Much formalised music was created and used in this way but we simply have no record of the exact method and meaning of why people first started making musical sounds. Hit some sticks together and it sounds kinda cool, whistle or hum and it sounds nice. Music would have evolved right alongside our development of speech as an embracing of our ability to interpret and create. Nothing western or democratic about it.
@@edwardchester1 we don’t need a record though isn’t it obvious music is sound waves that are physical. That is the order Peterson is pointing to, crashing and banging is gonna inspire a mosh pit type activity whereas a pain stakingly articulated orchestral arrangement might move you to build a Cathedral rather than boogie It’s pointing towards a trueness about chaos and order and movement
@@off6848 "Music first showed up alongside group dances, festivities, and rituals. It served particular social functions and wasn't produced simply to be enjoyed as art. The majority of music to today is made consciously not only as art, but as a commodity." I'd say you very much need a record to make this assertion. Humans will have been making rudimentary music long before any sense of formalised group activities. Meanwhile, it has long, long been a commercialised activity for musicians to entertain the masses.
I've only recently come to your channel and find it consistently entertaining, witty, educational and moving. I am a lifelong composer/producer/writer. I've lamented the state of the music industry at times but never doubt the ability of music to express the inexpressible. Although Peterson is a bit ham handed in his psychologist's take on things, what he is trying to express Justin articulates so much more accurately: you can't put your finger on it, and shouldn't; just do it.
I love punk music. I loved it as a teenager. I fell in love with the Ramones, the Clash and Bad Religion as a child. I loved the "freaks" and I knew I had to be a punk. I had to be in that community. However, punk definitely has a nihilism problem and it is riddled with hypocrisy, insincerity and resentment. Especially the underground scene I adored so much as a teen. It got me into communism which is probably where much of the nihilism comes from. However there are clearly punk bands that aren't nihilistic, Bad Religion, the Ramones, Green Day, the Clash. To name a few. Loads of their songs are about hope and finding meaning. Sex Pistols aren't as nihilistic as he may think. Rotten was often being ironic. If he were truly nihilistic he wouldn't have written Bodies. Because what does it matter that some girl from Birmingham is having abortions willy nilly? *Who Wrote Holden Caulfield?* by Green Day amazes me to this day that a 17 year old boy wrote about his concerns of having no meaning and smoking too much dope. "There's a boy who fogs his world and now he's getting lazy, there's no motivation and frustration makes him crazy, he makes a plan to take a stand but always ends up sitting, someone help him up or he is gonna end up quitting." That is not nihilistic. That is actually concern about becoming nihilistic and it's coming from a young working class boy. Jordan Peterson is concerned to the point of obsession with nihilism. Perhaps he's right to be. But clearly, his dealings with his patients has created a hypersensitivity to it. He has seen first-hand what nihilism brings and it has haunted him.
Justin, your channel rocks. I really really dig it since finding it. I can’t disagree with either POV. I think actually that you guys are both saying the same thing. But Peterson always breaks it down to the most fundamental parts, and you’re adding the seasoning to it. Music moves people, sometimes more the people who observe it more than the people who create it. Vibration is life
Exactly. Peterson is describing how certain aspects of music relate to a specific mental state. In no way is he proposing it as some complete definition of what music is.
“I want to be part of something” in a round about way I think you and Dr Peterson are saying almost the same thing. He’s just so intelligent he can over complicate any subject. You’re all heart and he’s all brain. Meaning. It gives us meaning in a world that will break your heart. I love your channel. Thank you.
As well as being art and completely abstract, music is also entertainment. Yes, it can be absolutely beautiful, it can give meaning to your life. But it's also just so fun to dance to your favourite songs, or sing as loud as possible with a bunch of friends. Music has so much more going on than one particular purpose. In fact, because it is so abstract, I think it's hard to even say music (art in general) has any purpose at all, and exists for its own sake. But it makes the world go round, and basically everyone enjoys some form of art in one way or another. There's more to it than saying it has a function of some sort
Music teaches us to dance while the music is playing, which is a great metaphor for life. Life isn't going anywhere - neither is a dance. As Alan Watts put it so well, the object of dancing is not to get from one part of the dance floor to another part of the dance floor. The object of dancing is to enjoy dancing! You don't do it to get somewhere. Music and life are ultimately the same as dancing that way - we don't live to get somewhere, we life for the enjoyment of living! Dr. Peterson is very intelligent, but he relies entirely on his rational mind which is NOT a good way to live or understand life.
I must say that for me music does fight nihilistic thoughts. Because so many times I ask myself, "Why am I doing all this? Why do I bother?" Then something will occur either in the music I create or someone else's. And that provides the answer. This is why I suffer and toil. To experience these moments.
Music is here to help you remember. How many times do you hear a song and you remember what you were doing. If you go on holiday if you want to remember more listen to music at the sights you go to and you’ll remember them a lot better
Hello there, this is from a 52 year old bass player. I have a severe case of tinnitus. All because of my love for music. I know I have listen to music TOO LOUD. But is has given me so much pleasure and joy and also so many tearful moments. It’s all to me. John miles have said it best. Music was my first love and is going to be my last.
An opportunity to belong is an antidote to nihilism as it gives people a feeling of meaning. Loving your channel, your content is excellent. It's breathe of topics and genres is great. Keep up the good work.
Also. You say about children. I find it fascinating how babies are not taught dancing. Just all of a sudden if a baby hears a catchy tune they dance. Music is so human.
“i think his frame of reference is limited to one ramones gig and going to a bar in nashville”😂 “All art constantly aspires towards the condition of music. For while in all other kinds of art it is possible to distinguish the matter from the form, and the understanding can always make this distinction, yet it is the constant effort of art to obliterate it.” Walter Pater 1839-1894 English essayist, art and literary critic, and fiction writer, regarded as one of the great stylists. Also, as a ghost, became a great friend to Dr. Jordan P.
I appreciate your positive attitude & sharing your thoughts, Justin. If only Peterson could stick to discussions like this - if we might disagree he won't feel like he needs to scream at us. Your response is wonderful. I don't see nihilism as being to common - maybe misplaced attention but not meaninglessness. Peace. Wish you well.
When did he scream at you? Sure someone didn't just tell you something, and you believed it without actually hearing it for yourself? Because I've always seen him behave exactly like this
@@drowningin I take it you've not seen the video someone made by taking a video of JP crying about woke libs and put it in a snipit of an old Command and Conquer game.
Peterson is simply saying that music is so inherently meaningful that it can even make a nihilist tap their toes. Basically, music disproves nihilism. The world is inherently meaningful.
@@paulgill2042 How so? It seems pretty fitting for the time, place, culture, and genre. They definitely acted like nihilists, even if they didn't identify as such.
Was confusing to hear you say that there was "more to it" than he was saying, because he was sort of vaguely saying it was life and meaning itself. You mentioned how it couldn't be quantified like Jordan Peterson was, but I think he even said it couldn't be quantified; "it's beyond rational critique". Your comments on how music can be about belonging rather than meaning is odd, because I think the word meaning encompasses "belonging", to an extent they're almost synonymous. Also I doubt his only frame of reference for music is a Ramones gig and nashville bar, those are just the examples he picked. That felt a little dismissive. As an experiment, rewatch this video but everytime you "i disagree because actually" imagine you're saying "I agree because" and then it suddenly seems like your opinions are totally aligned. Anyway, I'm a bit of a fan boy so I'm not gonna see eye to eye on this.
Can you imagine is the world leaders had a good old mosh at the beginning of every conference, every decision making debate. Can you imagine how much joy and laughter that would bring……before they made the decision which affect the world? What a wonderful world that would make!
It's cos the best stuff comes from the heart, the last movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique symphony, those who can feel his pain will be in tears too...
@@SoloDallasII Justin would probably charming and polite about it while gently showing up Peterson with better-formed and more honest thoughts trying to direct him to stay on topic.
@@MegCazalet Nobody on Earth can keep peterson on topic or keep him honest. If people whose careers are in politics struggle to pin him down, Justin isn't going to be able to.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated Justin. This conversation between you and me (and everyone else on here) has expanded my scope on this topic. In a sense, I feel like both you and Jordan Peterson are observing the same prism, but your interpretation is a slightly rotated direction or angle of light of that prism. Thank you both!
I really enjoyed this one. Thank you. Very eloquent. Zappa (apparently) famously said that "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - I think you're probably on the same (black) page. Glad you didn't allow Peterson to lead you down a Fibonacci rabbit hole.
@@JustinHawkinsRidesAgain you really missed the boat on this one, as you are clearly mischaracterizing his statements as absolutes; he never said punk as a genre of music is nihilist, he described a handful of people at a concert as "nihilistic," & he certainly never gave any indication that he was saying music only serves the one purpose. I can't help but wonder if you feel the need to disagree with Peterson simply because of the untrue portrait of him which legacy media has painted & your own fear of being cancelled on social media. Alternatively, you may believe the propaganda about his character & can't bring yourself to be objective about someone you've been told is a monster.
Great podcast, thank you. Peterson is the Erich von Däniken of psychology. And he’s confusing nihilism with existential crisis. The latter may lead to the former, but then so can some forms of religion.
@@zolarczakl6815 really? JP thinks eating oreos is a religious experience. At least the idea of ancient aliens could exist in reality. He doesn't redefine everything into absurdity and then cry about it.
@@russellward4624 oreos can easily be considered a religious experience, any moment can be what you want it to be, so that's a moot point, and he doesn't redefine shit. Sounds like you've been listening to too much breadtube
People who think he's a "divisive figure" haven't really listened to him beyond clips & establishment media bullshit. Surely he isn't right about everything, but he also doesn't claim to be. I like him because at least he is a sincere person in a world of nonsense. One thing to note is that a lot of times he's referring to an extreme, not everyone. He can be a little cheesy in his earnestness at times, but he's genuinely interested in others & that is refreshing.
Man it’s nice to see Justin challenged on something, I feel like you’re so smooth in all your other videos, but I could see the cogs turning throughout the video. I feel like Jordan Peterson is describing the music like someone describing tasting chocolate by someone who’s never eaten chocolate. It’s indescribable. His approach is very logic based and while that describes music, it really misses the mark. You can’t describe the taste of chocolate, you can’t describe the sound of music. As an aside, we generally have 2 ways to make decisions in life, logic and feelings. Music is more feelings that logic.
Alan Watts reminds us this: just like how the 'meaning' of a musical melody changes each and every time you add another note to the end... well, life is this thing called NOW, combined with our memories about all the other moments of now we've experienced. Thus the 'meaning' of our lives changes in every moment, as the story just continues to be told, in every moment anew, new meaning after new meaning.
The problem with Jordan Peterson is that he is a man with an opinion, who has been elevated to some kind of all knowing status, because he has a platform and speaks with authority. Educated, travelled, experienced, sure, but ultimately it's just his opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Much of what he says is deeply questionable, because the world as he sees it, is not the way a lot of other people see it. It is just his experience. I think it is very dangerous to give people with such strong, authoritive outspoken "opinions", such an elevated platform. Hey, a lot of what he says is also good stuff as well. But for him to be seen as some kind of ultimate wise man is shaky ground.
I'm a violinist, spent 40 of my 50 years on this planet playing. It's safe to say I'm obsessed - even had to spend some time with a psychologist trying to find a balance between 'real life' and music. Practicing hours a day, teaching, gigging, recording, busking and on and on. Played for thousands but the moment that defined me as a musician was during lockdown.
I was asked to sneak into a friends house and play to her. She had reached the end of her cancer journey and had very little time left. I'd been there a handful of times and the final night I went she was in a hospital bed that had been brought into her living room. Her nurses had just left and her husband (they'd been together since primary school) lay down next to her. I sat at the end of the bed and played The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, then morphed into something I could never recreate. They drifted away into sleep and i quietly let myself out. I sat on a bench at the backdoor and cried. She never regained consciousness and passed away the next day.
Knowing that the last thing she consciously heard was music that I was gifted to be able to play has deeply affected me. All the years of hard work and practice - I've sometimes played a note for hours on end to perfect its tone that noone else would notice - all led me to that audience of 2. The pinnacle moment when it all made perfect sense as to why I was born. Those last few totally improvised and solo notes, were created in essence just for those two human souls. I was honoured to have been there. I played at her funeral and wake, which was a kneesup in our local pub, but none of it matched the quiet 5 minutes max it took for her to let go and slip away in her husband's arms.
Music has many faces, and I meet new ones everyday. Like a passionate foodie discovering a new taste or an artist creating their masterpieces or even a sports person who is at the top of their personal and professional best we all have our 'thing'. To try and quantify any passion, you are likely to fail. All I think JP was trying to do was, just that TRYING. Peace Out.
A touching story - thank you for sharing. I can relate to your experience, as I've been blessed to be a part of one or two of those private, deeply personal, completely magical moments in life. Moments that take you beyond _feeling_ emotions, into _living_ them. Sorrow, elation; resentment, and gratitude; pride and humility; love, and... loss; these things are experienced simultaneously and equally. Moments of profound connection, where music is the tie that binds it all together somehow.
In these moments it is possible to catch a glimpse of the divinity of balance, and the oneness of things..
Beatiful story. Only by reading it I like to think that that woman, on that night felt it was ok to let go: in the arms of his beloved husband listening to deeply emotional music....it was ok, it was time to stop the fight.
Even if you're dying, going out like that means you won.
Now this story is worth becoming emotional over and shedding tears. Thank you. Much more so than some fucking guitar solo.
@@philfrank5601 what would this story be without the music that was played? Terribly awkward, for starters..
@@SineEyed do you have a question?
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things" .... Tom Petty
Actual thee are plenty of tricks. You just don't recognize them. If you write music, you see it clearer.
Production itself is a trick.
@@morbidmanmusic Production is not magic it is science.
@@morbidmanmusic Stop being so pedantic. You know what he means. Don't piss in the punchbowl.
Morbid Music man or Tom Petty? mmmm... who's opinion should I trust?
I'm aware Jordan is someone who appreciates debate, so I'm hoping that we can open up this question further. I'm not saying his arguments aren't valid but I don't full agree with it all. Tell me what you think the meaning of music is? I also haven't watched any of Jordan's work before this, so my take isn't based on anything other than what he is saying in this video. I was sent this video to react to.
Justin, you’d be good at interviewing some of these cultural figures and having a dialogue.
@@cmikesmith664 Agree
You make your own meaning for music. It's not something objective. It could be your escape, your drug, your companion, your imagination, anything you like it to be. What I don't agree is John Cage's thesis that all sounds are music. For me it must go through our intelectual process.
Go on his podcast!
I've read a lot of Jordan Peterson's work/musings. I find that I agree with him more than I disagree with him. His words are often cherry-picked and taken out of context - which leads to misunderstanding and castigation. When the media portrays an individual as incendiary or extremely polarizing, I often take that judgement with a grain of salt and go investigate the person further by going directly to the source, research from there and then generate my own opinion. But that's just my practice.
I'm always blown away by Justin's depth of musical knowledge and really appreciate his philosophical take on the subject.
LOL
“Ordinary people can achieve amazing things just by having a guitar and believing in themselves”
That struck a chord. Inspirational and beautifully put, Justin. 💖🙏🏻🥰
Yes!
Justinisms
I always believed that music is the closest to magic that we will ever get to. To be able to shift someone’s mental and physical state by merely organising sounds is seriously magical
Whatever we create in this world is magical.
@@Crabbadabba wouldn't go that far
@@goestdummy Not in reality just figuratively.
All art and language and mathemetics is magic.
precisely. All beauty is this way. Doesn't make sense that we should have such an emotional attachment to it - music, stories, paintings, etc - but we do. Beauty is the world giving back, reminding us "oh, this place IS wondrous after all."
He starts with the premise that Nihilists can find meaning in music to explain that music brings meaning to all of our lives. You don't have to be Nihilistic to find that meaning, but even a Nihilist can.
nicely said. Music (really, just beauty in any sensory way) is a thing that makes us grateful to life. But those things are beautiful for no describable reason. Sure, one can say "patterns," but JP's not saying 'which' patterns like he's prescribing some sort of formula - just that there's a way in which beautiful things resonate with our consciousness that gives us the feeling we're missing when we're in despair and nihilistic. And I can't argue with him. I call it 'meaning.'
@@matiasmartinez8809 Absolutely... and in doing so it exposes or creates an identification that destroys the perception of emptiness.
@@matiasmartinez8809 I have been since watching the video. Thanks for your perspective :)
As a music lover it connects with me on a deeply emotional level. I don't need to know anything about it, it either connects or it doesn't.
Great profile pic!
soooo, the opinion of Justin who is actually proficient in music versus someone who knows dick squat about music ... ?
@@whatsup9260 Sooo what the fuck are you talking about?
Music belongs to everyone, the relative proficiency of Justin gives him no more or less right to an opinion than anyone else
@@nektekket852 liking it or not is fine, as you say cannot argue taste.
i think my comment was for someone who argued a technical comment about a skill or else but the comment was deleted
"Music is the universal language. ... it has the ability to transcend and convey every human emotion that exists without saying a word." - Edward Van Halen
Is he related to Eddie?
Well, that's not true, now is it.
As a working musician for 20+ years now, I can tell you that music has kept me off the streets and in the bars where I belong.
Music is the glue that holds everything together. I'm a loner and sort of a misanthrope but music makes everything more tolerable - it weaves life together. I just picked up my guitars again after years of not playing...I found my lost soul in that guitar case. Really enjoying your channel & views on music and artists etc.
I've said it so many times, I think music is the greatest thing as humans we will ever make. It's the purest thing we have ever done, and ever will do.
The wheel and controlled fire are pretty awesome too!
@@brushstroke3733 math, geometry, medicine, solid state electronics, optics, so many things! oh and dogs, i think they rank pretty high too
@@bjorndunderbeck I'm not so sure about all of those. Animals eat medicinal plants, so I'm not sure humans can take credit for medicine. Surgery is a pretty neat trick though, and resetting bones, etc. And perhaps at one time, domesticated dogs were a wonderful "creation" of humanity, but I think unfortunately humanity kept domesticating them until we jumped the proverbial shark. Dog breeds are warped and not to the advantage of the dogs themselves. I just saw a couple of happy weiner dogs that could barely move in their elongated bodies with short legs. And how often do I see tiny dogs like chihuahuas that seem perpetually frightened and nervous? Is that a wonderous creation, or a monstrosity? What about French Bulldogs that can barely breathe because of their compressed snout shape? What about labradors and retreivers and shepards with genetically bad hips? I invite you to reconsider what a marvel modern dogs are and see that perhaps we humans are screwing them up in usual arrogance that we do things better than nature does.
@@brushstroke3733 yeah i get you, I forgot about all those breeds, suddenly the whole thing looks like a freakshow!
I surrender to this statement. I love all the arts… But sometimes when I’m listening to a piece of music I’ll say that’s worth 100 paintings or that’s an entire building. And I know it’s not right to compare. I mean the funny thing is you can look at a paint or painting and think what isn’t that kind of mechanical? Although at the same time you can be energetic and lyrical and beautiful. And in order to make music you have to do some thing and master something that is intellectual and emotional and mathematical and mechanical. But when you experience and it’s pure poetry. But I think you can say that about a great tennis or basketball player, as well. It’s all part of the experience of living inside the material world bounded by the rules of physics. The music itself is governed by physics. The experience can be so divine.
Ain’t it great to be alive?
For me it's a very personal experience it's not about art or science. It happens that you find yourself listening to this or that and it's not about how technically good or how popular it is. There's something about that artist or that music that makes a big impression on you at a particular time and place in your life.
Interesting, I’d say that’s distinctly an art thing. Do you mean it’s not about “technical appreciation” of art?
@@JayFunningham For example a songwriter is writing songs that a person listening relates to their own experiences whether the writer intended that sort of meaning or not it can come across to the listener as something deeply personal to them. To other people the song may just be rubbish but music can be a unique experience. In itself music is artistic and technical but how I get into it is not planned. I go with my gut. If my friends laugh at me they laugh at me. It's just at a certain time and place a band or piece of music impresses itself on me, it stays in my mind and I'm very happy for it to stay there.
@@levitation25 I think what you’re describing is art - the way it speaks to us on an individual level and our own experiences and personality informs what we get from it. ❤️
When I hear Peterson talk about music I interpret it as something that’s going on with your core philosophies and principles, the ones you may not even be aware of if you are roaming through life as a reactionary.
Music and it’s patterns being an allegory to life itself can affect people on the surface and deep below where your conscious doesn’t go.
Sometimes if the path you are on moves with the chosen patterns in a song it can connect and remind your soul that there is meaning to life. You may not notice when it happens, but when it does, and for those moments, your self meets what once was.
Being young punk rocker in the early 80's, I was anything but nihilistic. What ever I was expressing through my music or in the mosh pit was directed at those that didn't care about the environment and planet, and our future on it. It wasn't that the music was saving those of us in the mosh pit from our nihilism. It was more like the chaos we were creating was a call to wake up and start dreaming of a better world. In essence it was a call to someone like JP to step into the pit with us instead of over analyzing life and be alive. But to each his own.
Well put!..and I was a punk too probably around 1977..and we just thought of ourselves as anti establishment and celebrating the outsiders...
I think the question is, what would you have without the music?
Well said. An old school punk myself to me it's the exact opposite of nihilism. It's very idealistic. Maybe it can be simplistic, but that's not nihilism.
Bunch of middle class mummy’s boys
Punk was over by 77 when the saints said it was. If you were a punk in 1978 you were a wanker being sold an image by nme
The beauty of music is that it’s open to interpretation and that the meaning of it is different for each individual.
As a music lover and musician, music is a religious experience when done properly. When playing music and it’s going great, it’s better than sex.
As a life long musician and someone who finds Jordan Peterson completely frivolous and ridiculous, I truly appreciate your measured take. I aspire to your calm.
What do you think makes him “frivolous and ridiculous”?
@@TheAlibabatree
Being a whiny soiboi that cries about the dumbest things and can't form a coherent argument. Have you read 'Maps of Meaning'? It's utter 🐴💩. 12 Rules is a bad joke on kids that need better parents.
@@TheAlibabatree i think the main criticism comes from his label as a "thinker" when his most famous ideas as seen in "12 rules of life" are somewhat amateurish and as novel in their discourse as any other self help book that has come out in the last 20 years.
@@tcrijwanachoudhury With all due respect, i dont think you know much about him. That book is just that. A book. And it happens to have improved millions of struggling peoples lives, so i truly don’t understand the arrogant elitism towards something that is beneficial to humanity.
But, if you want to have an intellectual sparing match, i would suggest you dig a bit deeper than just his one self help book aimed at, and beneficial to a specific demographic.
@@TheAlibabatree Jordan Peterson is a nonsensical pseudo intellectual at best and dangerous influence at worst. He offers so little of value in his word salads its hard to critique because its so rambling and self-absorbed. By the time he is crying in this video my eyes have rolled so far back into my head I may have choked on them just a bit. If its improved your life, more power to you I guess, but personally I find his work more detrimental than beneficial to modern society.
I found this discussion so valuable. It's interesting to see music being thought of by essentially 2 different types of schools really. For Dr Peterson's obvious love for music, he is still a layman in the sense that he's not a musician, doesn't necessarily have the knowledge that Justin has from years of experience as a working musician. But the good Dr's approach to philosophy, music's profound impact on people I think is true. The core of this whole conversation is that music has an undeniably massive impact on people and individuals. I think there's something profound just in that. Whether you're a rockstar or an academic, music can and does bring people together
nicely said
@@cecilcharlesofficial thank you sir
@@rosshardinguk From what I've understood he's done his fair share of playing, although not on a professional level. He's talked about himself playing Beethoven sonatas which takes som practice and gives you quite a deep understanding of music I would argue. Although probably not as deep as a professional musician once again.
@@jonatanbefrits5609 I did not know Dr P had musical knowledge. But in my own opinion just listening to Beethoven would give one insight into the massive depths and power of music. Listen to the Piano Sonata No.14 and you shall be moved.
I've never ever met a nihilistic punk, quite the opposite. Nihilism, in my experience, is a synthom suffered by people in a deep depression or a bi polar low. Mr. Peterson has a long time fascination with nihilism, good vs evil, etc and as a psychologist is probably over exposed to such maladies in his practice. The rest of the world is way more optimistic and joyous 😊
nihilism is often misinterpreted and im somewhat surprised Peterson plays into it, nihilism is the creation of your own meaning in a world that doesn't give meaning to you. it assumes that religions are fallacious, capitalism and consumerism are at the very least meaningless if not outright bad, and that the various elements of society are continuing to drain meaning from everyday life, basically how humans in the Stone Age had meaning in there life as simple as getting enough food for the week--without that direct need, or with it addressed, daily life boils down into a grind where you are never really going up, nor down. nihilism is the recognition (or agreement with) the idea that the world is meaningless and therefore we as humans need to make our own meaning. actual nihilism is essentially the philosophy of most people who don't subscribe to a religious power, its not a reflection of work ethic or morality or anything like that. theres a lot more to it, like epistemological nihilism (the idea that nothing can be known or communicated _for sure)_ , or cosmic nihilism (the idea that the universe is unintelligible) and its genuinely some of the most interesting stuff to think about and either apply or learn to steer away from. Jordan Peterson, when referring to nihilism, tends to actually refer to either absurdism or philosophical pessimism, both of which share the ideas of the meaningless of life but both are also more "life is pain and the only rewards are death and seeing the absurdity of those around us"
Exactly. As a Christian, Peterson requires a straw man to knock down. In this case, nihilism is that straw man.
Not sure what time period you are familiar with but in the 80s California punk scene there were plenty of nihilists. Not that their weren't idealistic punks but that was not the norm. I was there and that was certainly what I observed. The UK punk scene or the East Coast punk scene (the Ramones) may have been different.
I appreciate how open minded you are about things. It's something that became really clear to me when you did the NFT video. You don't just talk the talk, you're one of those rare cats that really seems to walk the walk. I endeavour to be more like you and to stop and think about the assumptions I hold about people and ideas and to just slow down and think a bit before I react. I want to thoughtfully consider the information I'm being presented. I usually fail more often than I succeed but I'm trying to make that change. I appreciate you and this channel. Cheers sir.
I was gonna say something similar but you pretty much said what I was gonna say.
Such a Jordan Peterson fan comment lol
@@michaelshannon9169 I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did you see the NFT video? I did. You realize that when this video went up, it had a different title and it changed to what it currently is? I didn't say which side I come down on but the massive amount projection you're doing here makes your position clear. Tell me though, what's wrong with being open minded? Do you find it threatening when people don't adhere to strict dogma? That's ok though Michael, just keep feeling good about yourself for insulting people on the internet you know nothing about. If it makes you happy, fill your boots friend.
@O.T. Oss, just so you know, the video of the title changed because it always changes.....it's a clickbait tactic people use to get more views. This channel does it on every video, it annoys me (and other people).
@@tigs6639 ah, very clever. Is title changing "a thing" now then? I've noticed thumbnail upgrades, but often big channels will go back & do it for branding purposes.
Music is emotion made real, tangible .. it can make you cry like a baby or bonce like a ball. Its the only thing in life that has really really ever ment anything to me. It touches my soul while healing my heart and when its done right it can be like a life shot to your very essence.
Yes, music and laughter are the two most important things in the world.... well maybe love as well.
I mean, yes... but in reality it is simply a particular pattern of preassure waves that generates brain activity
Music has kept me alive all my life. It is a power to behold and I have been privileged that it has touched my soul.
I don't think he's saying music, or even punk music specifically, is only for people who struggle with nihilistic dread. He's saying it's something that can be used to help people in that situation. And that probably his personal experience.
He's not saying that's all there is to it. He's saying that's one thing that makes music so valuable and wonderful. It's something that brings comfort to people and brings meaning and purpose.
When I'm feeling down on my luck I listen to certain songs. I'll go for a run and find motivation from those stories told and the melodies. So for me it's not necessarily an antidote to nihilism, but rather a motivational force to keep me strong when I'm struggling.
I think Peterson is very much speaking about his own struggle with nihilism and in this video he's trying to inspect why music brings him such comfort and meaning. Perhaps a little bit of projection on the rest of the world, but I definitely see where he's coming from. I think we can all remember a time where we felt like giving up on life and we heard music that made us feel better.
Music has made me cry. Helped me through dark times, almost spiritual connection with the pain of an d fragility of an artist ( Cash with Rick Rubin helped me sit in a car in the dark and cry but turned those dark thoughts of self pity to positivity).
Music is an emotional release. Allows connection with strangers. A safe zone usually at a gig. An area to be expressive such as a mosh pit, to connect you with a moment in time. To flash back to specific scenarios in your childhood. It’s quite a powerfully manipulative medium at a specific time in your life.
As always, interesting blog.
Very articulate, Justin. Nice.
The guitarist is Luke Mcqueary. I saw a year ago when I went to pick up my puppy and this kid was unbelievable. He was at Robert's Western Bar where Johnny Hiland used to play. Johnny is a brilliant country player but Luke is like Hendrix meets Brent Mason. I totally understand what Jordan was experiencing but I experienced myself. Def check out Luke Mcqueary if you get a chance.
There are a billion great guitarists. A tiny fraction make great music.
I appreciate your perspective here and agree with almost everything you've said. I do, however, think you and JP were saying two different things. Music very well could be an antidote to nihilism, especially from the perspective of a clinical psychologist. Many people can receive an antidote for some sort of affliction without ever experiencing the symptoms.
I think his reaction to the Nashville bar gig is probably because he hasn't experienced it before. Like with most things in life, the first time gives you such a massive buzz, but if you continue to do it all the time, that buzz fades and you have to go more extreme to get the same buzz. It's why so many of us burn out on out passions. It's also why people who look up to musical or sporting heroes don't understand why they may be unhappy even though they seem like they are on top of the world. The journey of getting there is often torturous.
Im autistic and i dont know what i would do without music
I'm music and I don't know what I'd do without autism
2:31 Nihilism includes the idea “that nothing can be known or communicated”.
I think that’s where the magic of music works as an antidote: when the track comes on or one starts a jam with the band, suddenly for no known/knowable reason one feels connected - a feeling that the nihilistic mind generally does not feel and, however fleeting, takes hold of the entirety of one’s being for a moment in time.
Perhaps one could say that connection is the antidote to nihilism and music is all about connection.
I have developed a rather nihilistic outlook on life but I believe it is only a feeling, sometimes I’ve got to stop myself believing that it’s here to stay, it’s only a feeling, anyway 🤙🏼
Well said!
This is exactly right! You nailed it. Connection and empathy and natural solidarity with one another, the wonder we feel when we catch a glimpse of the same plane we are all on, is indeed the antidote to nihilism. It reminds us why we should give a shit. We are connected, we are not alone, when we give freely and generously of ourselves we find meaning. Music is one of the most powerful and direct lines to this feeling. Jordan Peterson is definitely reductive in his analysis of "what music is", but the point about it being a portal to a place of genuine meaning and connection - something that reminds us of how beautiful and awesome humanity is - is right on the money (and something I would extend to all forms of art).
I think that last sentence has great potential to be a cool line in a song, i might have to use that my friend
Music is salvation.... its how I feel feelings... emotions... am that person who's reality is that there's no point .... just a repetitive existence until the inevitable.... were the only input I can have my self is when it ends.. music at least takes me out the misery and energises my thoughts my body ... can give me a euphoria of joy and peace..
Music is beautiful, it triggers ignites awakens calms sooths releases ...
I believe it to be a medication for my mind..
That would be a great song title, "Nihilism is Only a Feeling". Lol
To sum up his point of, "music is the antidote to nihilism"; simply he is saying that in music-there is meaning.
Even a punk who indulges in nihilism will go to a punk show and dance in a mosh pit (that is meaning) and if you take that idea, that even a nihilistic person can find meaning in a song; clearly, music must have real meaning.
So then you compare that to finding meaning in your own life.
Think of it as an analogy-in music, if you take a song that typically the artist has something important to say, that you as the listener can relate to, and you add that with harmony and structure; you can find meaning. Without having something to relate to, without the structure, without the harmony; it now just becomes noise (noise=nihilism.) It isn't a meaningful song until you add the ingredients of something important to relate to, harmony, and structure-only THEN will you find meaning; only THEN will you want to dance.
So essentially he is using that formula and applying it to life-if you take something important that relates to you, and you add that with structure and harmony; then you can find REAL meaning in your life; and then you can dance to life-almost as if you're dancing to a song that is real meaningful to you.
Well said. Nail on the head.
Word. 🖤
So he said nothing of worth, like always. Got it.
I was a punk because the music was great and it spoke to something in me. Also, we didn't mosh, we pogoed. I was just a fab teen having fun. No deep analysis necessary, wanted or needed. It's four chords and the truth, Mr. Peterson.
I don't think JP was crying because of the guitar solo. I think it was because he has spent so much of his life analyzing pain & suffering that witnessing joy, happiness and moments of carefree bliss is such a turnaround that it makes him emotional. As a clinical psychologist, his job was to hear his clients recount their worst experiences & describe their deepest fears, anger & depressive moments. His academic research revolves around that & a historical violence, like the Russian gulags and whatnot. The man has spent so much of his life looking at the deep, dark, black crevices of existence, so even momentary flashes of light make his eyes water.
I would argue that you just agreed with what he said. "It's not amenable to rational criticism" is his way of stating that music is way more than can be analyzed. He mentions some common attributes that he has noted but is admitting that music itself defies rational definition.
It's amazing how many people missed out on that simple sentence.
@@independenceltd. .. It's amazing how much psycho-waffle Peterson spews on any given topic... Mind you, when he tries to analyse society and politics he makes about 1 good point for every 10 lousy, half-arsed, straw man arguments he makes.. If he'd stuck to insulting Woke pronoun zealots of the Transhumanist Movement on steroids I'd have kept my respect for him, but's he talks so much waffle and rubbish I now almost always find him annoying.. This talk is no exception.
@@PrivateSi "It's not amenable to rational criticism" seems pretty benign. But maybe it's cuz I'm not looking to be offended.
@@independenceltd. .. This Peterson talk is 90% intellectual psycho-waffle that didn't explore the Psychology of Music well at all... Peterson is overrated, trumped up and often confused.. Did a good job on the Cancel Culture and Marxist Gender Confusion movements but the rest of his talks are not worth a listen IMO, and I've listened to quite a lot on a (far too) broad range of subjects since he became a PRO SPEAKER on the media circuit, promoting his Conservative self-disciplining manuals and now talking about all sorts of political issues he knows far too little about.. He's so Conservative his extreme anal retention followed by bouts of verbal diarrhoea is cause by his own head repeatedly disappearing up his own drug-addled arse...
--
I could slag him off all day as I'm a personal responsibility promoter via Constitutional Direct Democracy and Peterson is vehemently against Direct Democracy and pro Constitutionalism.. D.D. has become a bit of an obsessive pet hate for him... We need need a Libertarian Constitution that requires overwhelming absolute majorities to change or temporarily suspend laws and rights as trusting political parties and Dear Leaders is extremely personally irresponsible. The man's a bit of a lame brain, and a joke... Too much fine wine and too many highly addictive hard drugs + old age.
It's not amenable to rational criticism, unless you're JP and are paid to pontificate. Wish he'd stick to the field he's actually trained in.
There’s a fantastic simple quote from Andy Warhol….I think it goes “An experience has no atmosphere until it’s a memory”. Music has the innate ability to move you through time and gives an atmosphere to so many things you experience as a human being.
I wouldn't say The Ramones were nihilistic. They really put out songs for anyone. And The Clash were a bit serious but positive. And I love SWANS. Taking music back to it's tribal, ritualistic origins of noise and rhythm. Music has been my first choice since I was a little kid. Other choices in my life have diminished or fallen away through the years except music.
I agree with you about The Ramones. They are punk rock with the word rock heavily underlined. Almost a bit of pop sensibility in there too with the catchiness of some songs. If we’re talking about nihilism in punk most of the “blame” surely lies with John Lydon
@@jethrobradley7850 Indeed. Good old John has used the same attitude for decades now. I actually enjoyed P.I.L. more than the Sex Pistols. Well, P.I.L. with Jah Wobble and Keith Levene. Very experimental.
@@mikewilson3581 Aye. I didn’t mind some of the later PIL stuff too.
@@jethrobradley7850 I was fortunate to find an old vinyl copy of Keith Levene's Violent Opposition from 1987 last year. Keith is certainty underrated as a guitarist. You can tell The Edge was influenced by Levene's style of playing. Speaking of The Edge, at least Lydon never went the way of dad rock like U2 has in the last couple of decades.
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks punks are nihilists is just funny. Also that he thinks being anxious, upset and aimless is part of nihilism. He was like, "well nihilists are angry, and punks are angry, so punks must be nihilists." I'm honestly impressed with how many absurd leaps he was able to make is such a short clip.
Music is the reason I am still standing. It's connection, it's vulnerable, it's joy, .. it's heart.
I believe that the long and short of it is that we NEED music. For some it's classical music, for others it's death metal and for another group it's hip hop, etc.
What you, Justin, say of tribalism is so true - even to the point where one can almost deny one's appreciation of other generes because it's not the music of their peers.
Throughout the ages music has been a way of not only being an emotional expression but also a political one and that has never changed.
A question I often ask myself is, do our values and where we align ourselves affect the music we listens to or, does the music influence one's values? We know that different types of music affect our brains and thus our emotions in different ways but what of our values?
Of all art, music is certainly the most important and most accessible to most. It's wonderful and I have deep respect for anyone who can write a piece of music.
i would say that music is probably one of the most important things in this world, regardless of what else is happening at any one-time music is what connects people, from the person next door to the person a world away. the love people have for music, bands, artists and so on is unmeasurable. people will defend and argue till the cows come home to protect what they love.. or to tell what they dislike. without a doubt, i can say that music for me is the most important thing i have to keep me going and ticking by in this mad mad world.
i have no musical skill to be able to play or sing and i certainly cant understand how music is put together, I'm ok with that because not knowing means i can enjoy music for its purpose of being written and played.
For me, music enhances life and often reflects it. Music and lyrics can be a form of distilled empathy as well as mad fucking fun, it can make your heart race or make you cry with sadness or joy. Saw The Damned many times as a kid, it was never nihilistic but always celebratory, in the moment, utter fucking life affirming joy. A powerful experience for a 16 year old kid. Music has had a powerful influence on my life.
AHA!
@@Robdobalina Wibble!
Your music has always been good to listen to, but actually you're an interesting guy to hear speak as well. You make lots of great points and cool that you're making videos so we can hear more than just music but your thoughts and opinions on things too
Petersons arguments always seem to rest pretty heavily on confidently made assertions which aren't supported, tested or challenged. For example, his statement that "Non-patterned music is noise" is not the immutable fact he presents it as. Simiilarly, his assertion that "the world's made of patterns" is something you could argue strongly against. Sure, there are lots of patterns but there's lots of randomness too, this doesn't support his 'point' though so it's just discarded. As Justin points out he makes a bunch of sweeping generalisations about Ramones fans and "punk rockers" which seem to be there mainly to support the rest of his argument, and suggest that maybe he doesn't actually know that many 'punks'.
This is why he likes appearing on Joe Rogan stuff where he's just allowed to twitter on at length unchallenged while Joe and the audience take another bong hit and congratulate themselves on how deep they are. The only time I've seen Peterson actually challenged he came off as a lot less smart and a lot less convincing.
The crying bit was just weird.
Sorry, hadn't watched the whole clip when I was moved to comment and Justin covers some of these points.
In my view music is a fundamental part of the human condition and humans have been making 'music' in some form or other since we were living in caves. Different people seek different things in music whether it's the elegance and sophistication of a symphony, or the thumbing bassline in a nightclub which requires no thought but just makes you want to move. Sometimes the same person will seek different things at different times. And many people will hum or whistle to themselves as they do other things; isn't that a form of music making?
It seems to me that was Peterson was trying to articulate with his "best guitar player in the world" story is the feeling of appreciating live music as a group experience, the thing that makes live music so fantastic. I can see how that would make one feel that music is the antidote to nihilism, it's kind of how it makes us all feel. But I agree with Justin, and most other commenters on here it seems, that it's much, much more than that.
Peterson far more brilliant than you give him credit for. The times he has gotten challenged like with Cathy Newman or the lengthy GQ interview, he basically destroys them.
@@kickstar1 you are not addressing the points made, simply asserting your admiration for JP without supporting arguments. This is perfectly valid and please do not consider yourself "cancelled", but it is *not* persuasive.
@@kickstar1 No he doesn’t. He’s the idiot’s idea of a smart person. Complete embarrassment to the discipline of philosophy.
I miss being a kid and never analyzing anything or having to conclude anything.
Music is the universal language of humanity. ❤️
Mr Hawkins, in listening to both of you, I believe that what both of you are saying is that if not for music, Nihilism would run rampent.
Music is the cure for it, not the cause.
"run rampant" not "run ramped".
Its definitely an antidote to my lifetime of despair. Music is the Healer 🔥
My sense is both JBP and Justin are right on this. Music may be meaningful because it reflects back to us or maybe opens us up to the patternicity of the world. Justin takes this further, by pointing out that we as individuals find meaning and an opportunity to express ourselves when belonging to a group, tribe, band or whatever.
The music that calls to us on the level of individual opens us up to a deeper patterned reality. It also provides us the opportunity to express our unique selves through the higher mode, the group.
I definitely don’t always agree with Jordan Peterson, but I do appreciate his perspectives. Make me think. He also doesn’t always agree with his own opinions. He likes to think out loud and he is open to changing his thought process on the fly. That’s why I like him. It’s an interesting take on music. I see where he’s going with it. I think all he means is the music gets you on a deeper subconscious level that connects you to life and something more magical all at once. Or can connect you to pain in a way that helps you deal with it. Or love or joy or whatever. And the rhythmic nature of it just gets to you physically and you can’t help but move.
He is a terrible person who promotes western supremacy through fascist dogwhistles and repackaged nazi propaganda. Cultural Marxism is cultural bolshevism.
I think people give Peterson far too much credit. When you actually look into what he says, he’s either stating very obvious and hardly contentious or very ill informed. He tends to make rather large logical leaps, which is possibly a symptom of him thinking while talking however that’s a very dangerous thing to do, especially as his speeches/statements are often taken out of consequence, and often ‘cites’ articles and studies which don’t exist, are very unreliable or have very different findings to what he infers them too.
I agree. Justin seemed a bit too 'experienced' with music to appreciate the points that Jordan was making here.
@@AnthonyConstable Jordan Peterson is a raving loon. His points are nonsensical. You should read about the history of blood libel propaganda and the origins of 'cultural bolshevism'.
Your lobster daddy is a fascist hack faux intellectual who sells the idea of self responsibility while abdicating all personal control of his faculties in favor of clinically inducing a coma to shortcut his recovery from addiction.
After excoriating others for addiction problems he pays money normal people don't have to chest his way to recovery, against the professional advice of anyone with a medical licence.
Stop following lying maniacs
@@harveysmith3428 “Cites articles and studies that don’t exist “..... what a load of nonsense. If you don’t agree with Peterson’s views that’s fair enough but there’s no need to lie about him.
3:10 If you turn the sound off there's no way you wouldn't think he was doing a magic trick.
I think Jordan Peterson's main claim is that music points to the existence of actual meaning vs imagined meaning that a nihilist thinker would fear to find. Most people experience a sense of meaning or affirmation of their experiences through music. It's been said that the mind cannot accept what the heart cannot confirm. Perhaps music points to broader truth if we have the ears to hear?
Can he prove his claim tho?
He exists to spread fascism. That's why oil billionaires pay him to spread old nazi conspiracies like cultural bolshevism. Oh sorry, it's called cultural marxism now. The nazi party needed to tighten up their phrasing
or maybe that’s just a bunch of claptap and by beginning one’s argument with labeling your strawmen as “nihilists” in opposition to your supposed noble defense of something everyone enjoys is dishonest to begin with. I could make the same claim about ice cream and nice weather being evidence of “the beauty of the soul” and then say that “nihilist thinkers” would disagree. And then the audience boos at those made-up monsters!
Isn't all meaning imagined, even if it is consensual?
@@granitesevan6243 There are different types of meaning. Connotation, denotation for starters. But Peterson is deliberately vague on what he calls “meaning.” He’s using it as a magical word, a codeword among lazy thinkers like himself. And if you don’t agree, you’re a nihilist. Also, quantum.
I feel Jordan Peterson has been showing up more and more on reaction channels. As someone who enjoys watching your videos I really hope this is the first and last Jordan Peterson video we see from you.
I hope there are more. Why should Justin have to pander to the sensibilities of liberal snowflakes who are triggered by the mere mention of someone who happens to disagree with you?
@@MrRhurbarb is it pandering to the left to simply not platform bigots? Aside from everything, JPs just an idiot with baby brain takes
@@MrRhurbarb because he doesn't say anything. He just makes assertions and whines when people don't adhere to his demands because he's the ultimate snowflake.
He's essentially talking about the beauty of art and it's ability to lift us out of nihilism, depression or just general sadness into pure 'awe'. What's not to understand?
Music is multifunctional for me, but at its base, it provides me with a sense of meaning and direction. As an example, I’ve been singing and guitaring since I was about 10 years old, and multiple times I’ve fallen off the wagon, and not played or written music for months at a time, and have fallen into a deep spiral of depression, feeling I have no direction of real purpose in life. As soon as I start writing, everything falls into place.
And to add to that, music transports me to memories, it amazes me that you can feel a very specific feeling, and be listening to a song, then for years not listen to that song again, and when you pop it on almost a decade later, you feel exactly how you felt all those years ago. Plus, some of my favourite musical memories of those where I’ve been with friends, seeing a band I love, and dancing and moshing and singing along and forgetting about all of life’s problems.
It’s the best art form life can offer us.
One thing that’s interesting and magical about music is. It is always a fact that humans are not perfect. But when musicians record a great song, that is literally perfection captured. It’s made by flawed people but it’s perfect in it’s own way.
I wouldn't say it always perfection.
@@musicisfree91 I didn’t say always. I said when they record a “great” song.
Justin Hawkins riiiiiiides again. 🥰🤘🎸🔥
Agaaaaaain
@@nathanjones7926 Damn, you beat me to it lol :D
@@crimsonkate8241 next time!
Sometimes we look too deeply. Music has a direct link to the emotions that are not necessarily logical. Like much of life, it is better to experience it rather than looking too deeply. Music can make you cry, laugh, excite and uplift.
I don't think he's saying that's ALL music is... I think he's arguing that music makes us feel deep emotions, which are antithetical to nihilism. If you look into existentialism they argue that nihilism is sort of the base level philosophy that we have to overcome as humans- which is what I think he's getting at.
Many Punks have nihilistic views (whether they're fully aware of it or not) and he was arguing that their deep appreciation of the music is somewhat contrary to those views. (But he did sound slightly dismissive in this clip).
Obviously Peterson comes across as a bit of a shapiro-esque music noob in his little bow tie and all that but he likes lots of interesting bands (for e.g. Acade Fire, Tom Waits and Beach House) and and even plays music himself.
But thanks for the video! I love discussing music and philosophy and am a big fan of the channel.
when you're playing in a band, and the song you're playing suddenly transforms into one of those highly focused time bubbles, where it leaves reality and enters that zen-space where you can feel the magic - that's such a rare perception, that most people never get a glimpse of....that's the rare occurrence that is so wonderful about playing music.
Absolutely true!
I guess you could say that Music and Harmony is proof that there is in built order in a Universe that seems so chaotic. We didn’t invent music, we discovered it in nature.
This is beautiful
We are part of nature. Not above it.
So is music the antithesis of entropy?
@@stereofidelic67 Music is a sort of audible mathematics. We use tempered tuning and measurement to calculate a set of notes, and from that we can pair notes that work well together because each note has undertones of certain other notes in it when it reverberates. But it has to be relatively precise, otherwise we get dissonance- Musical entropy.
Equally music could be seen as evidence of the intrinsic chaotic nature of us all?
"not everybody can, or should" is a rare bit of cynicism from your normally positive attitude. Maybe you meant not everybody can do it well, and not everyone 'should' in that they don't have to, but music is for everyone. Not everyone can or should do it as a career, but everyone can do music.
Yes you're right! That's the beauty of music. Any cynicism you detect is more towards the music industry.
I agree with you, even if someone's terrible at music they should still do it.
Excellent topic, music is escapism to me. I’ve played drums most of my life and can attest how music can really move people in one direction or another. For some it’s just enough to tap their foot while others are completely immersed. Maybe Jordan Peterson should’ve played guitar? 🎸 It’s rewarding to be a musician when there’s people moving and reacting to your music.
I love the fact you perform your intro everytime and not have a recording, its simple yet cool
Being in the mosh pit at a Ramone's concert is one of my most cherish memories. Broken pinky finger and squashed toes made it even the more memorable. Anarchy just means freedom and that is the crux of all music. The feeling of having the freedom to simply feel without judgment
I love your videos but I think that on this one you have sort of missed what JP was trying to explain, he isn't trying to label any specific fans of any specific genres as nihilists, he was using the nihilistic belief system as a framework for which to explain why music is so important as it illicits a primal response that supercedes any learned, rational thought, i.e "nothing means anything" BUT " I can't help feeling something when I hear this song"
Why do you think the realization that it's all ultimately meaningless is a bad thing that should be avoided or amended?
@@rasputozen not me - JP.
Actually JP doesn't say that either.
@@rasputozen would you appreciate it if someone stole your car? Would you steal someone else's car? If you follow it to its logical conclusion, the position that everything is meaningless could be used to justify actions that hurt others. Not a very difficult one, guy.
@@Matthewtaylorn I wouldn't appreciate those things while I'm alive, you're right. It's not mutually exclusive for actions to have consequences and for those consequences be ultimately meaningless though.
Making music is probably the closest thing I have ever felt to love or a religious experience. I love recording music. Creating something out of nothing, bringing order from chaos, discovering a melody or Harmony feels meaningful and fulfilling. I've felt the same way when I've found a new band that really speaks to me, not just on the lyrics but the musical level. There is a connection with music and the heart.
Music is the best.
Part of what makes this conversation difficult is that the ways in which we produce and consume music in today's world are different than they were historically. Music first showed up alongside group dances, festivities, and rituals. It served particular social functions and wasn't produced simply to be enjoyed as art. The majority of music to today is made consciously *not only* as art, but as a commodity. That's pretty WEIRD (in the technical sense - Western Educated Industrial Rich Democratic). As such, I doubt contemporary analogies will help answer the question of what music "means."
Much formalised music was created and used in this way but we simply have no record of the exact method and meaning of why people first started making musical sounds. Hit some sticks together and it sounds kinda cool, whistle or hum and it sounds nice. Music would have evolved right alongside our development of speech as an embracing of our ability to interpret and create. Nothing western or democratic about it.
@@edwardchester1 we don’t need a record though isn’t it obvious music is sound waves that are physical. That is the order Peterson is pointing to, crashing and banging is gonna inspire a mosh pit type activity whereas a pain stakingly articulated orchestral arrangement might move you to build a Cathedral rather than boogie
It’s pointing towards a trueness about chaos and order and movement
@@off6848 "Music first showed up alongside group dances, festivities, and rituals. It served particular social functions and wasn't produced simply to be enjoyed as art. The majority of music to today is made consciously not only as art, but as a commodity." I'd say you very much need a record to make this assertion. Humans will have been making rudimentary music long before any sense of formalised group activities. Meanwhile, it has long, long been a commercialised activity for musicians to entertain the masses.
Music soothes the savage beast, or riles him up. It's a type of nonverbal communication.
I've only recently come to your channel and find it consistently entertaining, witty, educational and moving. I am a lifelong composer/producer/writer. I've lamented the state of the music industry at times but never doubt the ability of music to express the inexpressible. Although Peterson is a bit ham handed in his psychologist's take on things, what he is trying to express Justin articulates so much more accurately: you can't put your finger on it, and shouldn't; just do it.
I love punk music. I loved it as a teenager. I fell in love with the Ramones, the Clash and Bad Religion as a child.
I loved the "freaks" and I knew I had to be a punk. I had to be in that community.
However, punk definitely has a nihilism problem and it is riddled with hypocrisy, insincerity and resentment.
Especially the underground scene I adored so much as a teen. It got me into communism which is probably where much of the nihilism comes from.
However there are clearly punk bands that aren't nihilistic, Bad Religion, the Ramones, Green Day, the Clash. To name a few.
Loads of their songs are about hope and finding meaning. Sex Pistols aren't as nihilistic as he may think. Rotten was often being ironic. If he were truly nihilistic he wouldn't have written Bodies. Because what does it matter that some girl from Birmingham is having abortions willy nilly?
*Who Wrote Holden Caulfield?* by Green Day amazes me to this day that a 17 year old boy wrote about his concerns of having no meaning and smoking too much dope.
"There's a boy who fogs his world and now he's getting lazy,
there's no motivation and frustration makes him crazy,
he makes a plan to take a stand but always ends up sitting,
someone help him up or he is gonna end up quitting."
That is not nihilistic. That is actually concern about becoming nihilistic and it's coming from a young working class boy.
Jordan Peterson is concerned to the point of obsession with nihilism.
Perhaps he's right to be. But clearly, his dealings with his patients has created a hypersensitivity to it.
He has seen first-hand what nihilism brings and it has haunted him.
I will never stop listening to The Clash!
The only Band that Matters.
Nihilism =Post Modernism so Petersons two pet hates.
Don't forget Minor Threat!! sXe
He also seems to mix nihilism up with absurdism
Dancing in front of the mirror is an expression of hope which nihilists do not have. Thanks for your insights!
Do you know any nihilists? I know a number of punk music fans, but not a single nihilist. Peterson is talking s***. Nothing new.
Justin, your channel rocks. I really really dig it since finding it. I can’t disagree with either POV. I think actually that you guys are both saying the same thing. But Peterson always breaks it down to the most fundamental parts, and you’re adding the seasoning to it. Music moves people, sometimes more the people who observe it more than the people who create it. Vibration is life
Cant it be both? They're both right ultimately. He never said it was one singular concept, he was just describing one aspect/dimension of music
Exactly. Peterson is describing how certain aspects of music relate to a specific mental state. In no way is he proposing it as some complete definition of what music is.
@@XXXX-yc6wv Peterson is a nazi. Luke literally
“I want to be part of something” in a round about way I think you and Dr Peterson are saying almost the same thing. He’s just so intelligent he can over complicate any subject. You’re all heart and he’s all brain. Meaning. It gives us meaning in a world that will break your heart. I love your channel. Thank you.
As well as being art and completely abstract, music is also entertainment. Yes, it can be absolutely beautiful, it can give meaning to your life. But it's also just so fun to dance to your favourite songs, or sing as loud as possible with a bunch of friends. Music has so much more going on than one particular purpose. In fact, because it is so abstract, I think it's hard to even say music (art in general) has any purpose at all, and exists for its own sake. But it makes the world go round, and basically everyone enjoys some form of art in one way or another. There's more to it than saying it has a function of some sort
Music teaches us to dance while the music is playing, which is a great metaphor for life. Life isn't going anywhere - neither is a dance. As Alan Watts put it so well, the object of dancing is not to get from one part of the dance floor to another part of the dance floor. The object of dancing is to enjoy dancing! You don't do it to get somewhere. Music and life are ultimately the same as dancing that way - we don't live to get somewhere, we life for the enjoyment of living! Dr. Peterson is very intelligent, but he relies entirely on his rational mind which is NOT a good way to live or understand life.
He's not very intelligent. He's a hack who sputters up chaos dragons and refurbishes old nazi conspiracies
I must say that for me music does fight nihilistic thoughts. Because so many times I ask myself, "Why am I doing all this? Why do I bother?" Then something will occur either in the music I create or someone else's. And that provides the answer. This is why I suffer and toil. To experience these moments.
Fantastic breakdown Justin, as a musician you really inspire me with your videos. Thank you for what you do!
Music is here to help you remember. How many times do you hear a song and you remember what you were doing. If you go on holiday if you want to remember more listen to music at the sights you go to and you’ll remember them a lot better
Hello there, this is from a 52 year old bass player. I have a severe case of tinnitus. All because of my love for music. I know I have listen to music TOO LOUD. But is has given me so much pleasure and joy and also so many tearful moments. It’s all to me.
John miles have said it best. Music was my first love and is going to be my last.
I love how Jordan Peterson’s fanbase is so toxic that you have to say you’re sorry before criticizing him, otherwise they’ll come after you
Only Justin can give an awesome explanation about music and feeling and then just say: "Or not, I don't know" 😂
An opportunity to belong is an antidote to nihilism as it gives people a feeling of meaning. Loving your channel, your content is excellent. It's breathe of topics and genres is great. Keep up the good work.
Belong to what? A herd?
That's true. I might have found one opinion of Peterson's worthy of my time if he'd just expressed that.
Also. You say about children. I find it fascinating how babies are not taught dancing. Just all of a sudden if a baby hears a catchy tune they dance. Music is so human.
“i think his frame of reference is limited to one ramones gig and going to a bar in nashville”😂
“All art constantly aspires towards the condition of music. For while in all other kinds of art it is possible to distinguish the matter from the form, and the understanding can always make this distinction, yet it is the constant effort of art to obliterate it.”
Walter Pater
1839-1894
English essayist, art and literary critic, and fiction writer, regarded as one of the great stylists. Also, as a ghost, became a great friend to Dr. Jordan P.
I appreciate your positive attitude & sharing your thoughts, Justin. If only Peterson could stick to discussions like this - if we might disagree he won't feel like he needs to scream at us. Your response is wonderful. I don't see nihilism as being to common - maybe misplaced attention but not meaninglessness. Peace. Wish you well.
In fairness, he never screams.
When did he scream at you? Sure someone didn't just tell you something, and you believed it without actually hearing it for yourself? Because I've always seen him behave exactly like this
@@drowningin I take it you've not seen the video someone made by taking a video of JP crying about woke libs and put it in a snipit of an old Command and Conquer game.
@@drowningin sounds like he's pissing and moaning at us. ua-cam.com/video/6Nvckip7qxk/v-deo.html
@@caneyebus I take it if you need a heavily edited clip to make a point, its not a very good one
Peterson is simply saying that music is so inherently meaningful that it can even make a nihilist tap their toes.
Basically, music disproves nihilism. The world is inherently meaningful.
boom :)
Peterson is wrong to call 'punks' or the people at that concert nihilists. His premise for his stupid point is wrong.
@@paulgill2042 How so? It seems pretty fitting for the time, place, culture, and genre. They definitely acted like nihilists, even if they didn't identify as such.
Was confusing to hear you say that there was "more to it" than he was saying, because he was sort of vaguely saying it was life and meaning itself. You mentioned how it couldn't be quantified like Jordan Peterson was, but I think he even said it couldn't be quantified; "it's beyond rational critique". Your comments on how music can be about belonging rather than meaning is odd, because I think the word meaning encompasses "belonging", to an extent they're almost synonymous. Also I doubt his only frame of reference for music is a Ramones gig and nashville bar, those are just the examples he picked. That felt a little dismissive. As an experiment, rewatch this video but everytime you "i disagree because actually" imagine you're saying "I agree because" and then it suddenly seems like your opinions are totally aligned. Anyway, I'm a bit of a fan boy so I'm not gonna see eye to eye on this.
Can you imagine is the world leaders had a good old mosh at the beginning of every conference, every decision making debate. Can you imagine how much joy and laughter that would bring……before they made the decision which affect the world? What a wonderful world that would make!
It's cos the best stuff comes from the heart, the last movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique symphony, those who can feel his pain will be in tears too...
I think the two of you having a long form conversation on music would be incredibly interesting to hear.
Would fall into the sea of other half baked excessively convoluted opinions Peterson has had about things he doesn't fully understand.
God, no. Peterson would just force his political opinions in, like he does with everything, and Justin wouldn't be equipped to handle that stuff.
Probably better to microdose
@@SoloDallasII Justin would probably charming and polite about it while gently showing up Peterson with better-formed and more honest thoughts trying to direct him to stay on topic.
@@MegCazalet Nobody on Earth can keep peterson on topic or keep him honest. If people whose careers are in politics struggle to pin him down, Justin isn't going to be able to.
Your thoughts are very much appreciated Justin. This conversation between you and me (and everyone else on here) has expanded my scope on this topic. In a sense, I feel like both you and Jordan Peterson are observing the same prism, but your interpretation is a slightly rotated direction or angle of light of that prism. Thank you both!
I’m sure these comments will be fruitful conversations.
Is that what you come here for? 😂
Im here to see everyone going for politics instead of what Justin and Peterson said
@@mrbungle3310 ok
If anything can bring me to tears it’s some excelling in music 👍
I really enjoyed this one. Thank you. Very eloquent. Zappa (apparently) famously said that "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - I think you're probably on the same (black) page.
Glad you didn't allow Peterson to lead you down a Fibonacci rabbit hole.
You're an incredible human Justin. I loved this
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
@@JustinHawkinsRidesAgain you really missed the boat on this one, as you are clearly mischaracterizing his statements as absolutes; he never said punk as a genre of music is nihilist, he described a handful of people at a concert as "nihilistic," & he certainly never gave any indication that he was saying music only serves the one purpose. I can't help but wonder if you feel the need to disagree with Peterson simply because of the untrue portrait of him which legacy media has painted & your own fear of being cancelled on social media. Alternatively, you may believe the propaganda about his character & can't bring yourself to be objective about someone you've been told is a monster.
@@spiderkitty7643 ...Or you could follow his every word and worship the ground he walks on because he uses big words.
@@spiderkitty7643 I'm pretty sure Justin goes out of his way to be cordial.
Great podcast, thank you. Peterson is the Erich von Däniken of psychology. And he’s confusing nihilism with existential crisis. The latter may lead to the former, but then so can some forms of religion.
Really interesting take actually
Haha love the von Däniken reference. Spot on!
Comparing Jordan Peterson to some kook who believes in ancient aliens is a bit of a reach.
@@zolarczakl6815 really? JP thinks eating oreos is a religious experience. At least the idea of ancient aliens could exist in reality. He doesn't redefine everything into absurdity and then cry about it.
@@russellward4624 oreos can easily be considered a religious experience, any moment can be what you want it to be, so that's a moot point, and he doesn't redefine shit. Sounds like you've been listening to too much breadtube
People who think he's a "divisive figure" haven't really listened to him beyond clips & establishment media bullshit.
Surely he isn't right about everything, but he also doesn't claim to be.
I like him because at least he is a sincere person in a world of nonsense.
One thing to note is that a lot of times he's referring to an extreme, not everyone.
He can be a little cheesy in his earnestness at times, but he's genuinely interested in others & that is refreshing.
Man it’s nice to see Justin challenged on something, I feel like you’re so smooth in all your other videos, but I could see the cogs turning throughout the video. I feel like Jordan Peterson is describing the music like someone describing tasting chocolate by someone who’s never eaten chocolate. It’s indescribable. His approach is very logic based and while that describes music, it really misses the mark. You can’t describe the taste of chocolate, you can’t describe the sound of music.
As an aside, we generally have 2 ways to make decisions in life, logic and feelings. Music is more feelings that logic.
Alan Watts reminds us this: just like how the 'meaning' of a musical melody changes each and every time you add another note to the end... well, life is this thing called NOW, combined with our memories about all the other moments of now we've experienced. Thus the 'meaning' of our lives changes in every moment, as the story just continues to be told, in every moment anew, new meaning after new meaning.
The problem with Jordan Peterson is that he is a man with an opinion, who has been elevated to some kind of all knowing status, because he has a platform and speaks with authority. Educated, travelled, experienced, sure, but ultimately it's just his opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Much of what he says is deeply questionable, because the world as he sees it, is not the way a lot of other people see it. It is just his experience. I think it is very dangerous to give people with such strong, authoritive outspoken "opinions", such an elevated platform. Hey, a lot of what he says is also good stuff as well. But for him to be seen as some kind of ultimate wise man is shaky ground.
This. I agree 100%