This is going to give Salamanders and BA a huge threat on the board. I love it! Salamanders don't get the love so I'm happy when something like this comes around indirectly
GW: Here you go, SM - a melee dreadnought. SM: Thanks, man! CSM: Melee? It has so many guns it needs to carry two of them in the armpits. GW: That's normal. CSM: Oh, so can our Helbru- GW: No. CSM: 😢
I can't wait to charge this thing in as a space wolf with Born Heros and Whirlwind Rage, while getting full re-rolls for a Chaplin or chapter master. Truly and obscene amount of melee hits
Yep, I'm looking at my list to see what I have to give up to spare 400pts for 2 of these with meltas to slot in. Might replace my thunderwolves, they don't really deliver the goods these days.
It’d be kinda hilarious to have 3 of them buffed with techmarine with warden of the ancients in blood angels. In assault doctrine you could get a max of 8 attacks on two’s, wounding on two’s (unless transhuman) re-rolling at ap-5, d3+3dmg out of one of them. Seems fun
I was thinking much the same. Pairing in Librarians for buffing makes for a very nasty, very killy unit. Obviously Unleash Rage comes to mind, but Might of Heroes does as well.
Just a thought for Raven Guard (as I will play it): Being CORE, the new Dread can Advance together with Chaplain on Bike with "Swift and Deadly" WT and then still Charge. If taken as RG Successors with "Hungry for Battle", that gives it some scary threat range...
Still sad that the only viable way still to get any real damage when playing RG is to take them as a successor...to their own legion lol. I'm really praying 10th is the end to these edition long bad rules.
For anyone who doesn't know yet the imperium magazine subscription is being extended by another 10 issues. Thought this would be the best place to drop it
Might be overkill but in Black Templars, as he's Core; you can give him Pslam of Remorseless Persecution and Chapter Master Reroll's. With the Claws sweep profile this gets you reroll hits, reroll wounds and 6's to wound do one mortal wound (up to 6). Probably a chunk of mortals go through with this combo.
@@airtrack2607 ah sorry, for example a captain with a relic shield called "dominus aegis" gives out a 6" invuln bubble to anything core. The dread doesn't carry it.
Honestly, for the same reason I see the melta upgrade being chapter dependent, I can also see more shootier chapters taking the fists with the heavy bolters for more shots overall with ever so slightly worse melee damage, as well as a lesser point hit, which allows for more/different units for (potentially) even more shots.
There's also some flexibility in Black Templar lists that are running "accept any challenge" as they can stay in tactical doctrine and get the ap-2 on the bolt rifles and still get assault doctrine on the charge. The additional 8 shots at S4 ap -2 let the dread clear chaff more efficiently without having to commit to a charge. Fortunately it looks like the kit should be easy enough to magnetize.
Chest find will be a little harder than the Redemptor but claws/fists should be fairly simple and Bolt rifles/no bolt rifles also shouldn’t be that bad
With Iron Hands you could make him a character and give him the warlord trait(imperiums sword i think) for +1 attack and strength on charge and combine this with the master of the forge warlord trait (warden of the ancients) for an additional +1 attack and strength. So you get 8A at S16 d3+3 dmg or 16A at S9 1dmg. Which is pretty good but will cost you 2cp as well as the techmarine with master of the forge. Edit: You have to use march of the ancients to make him a character and then give him a warlord trait using the hero of the chapter stratagem, thats why it would cost 3cp in total forgot one. Also march of the ancientsgives +1 A so he would have 9A / 18A.
Do you think there is any way that Vashtor will help the chaos side make some sort of primaris chaos dreads or marines, with the dark mechanics magic? Just a thought
Chaos marines are still more skilled and aggressive than primaris. Vashtorr will probably provide them with more daemon engines to play with, but the blessings of the dark gods are better than being a primaris anyways
White scars having a 1cp advance and shoot guns as assault allows it to really get in there turn 2 with HB profile and if it survives than turn 3 cycle charge in and get damage 2 sweeps. I could consider taking some as an alternative to terminators in deepstrike from librarian/chaplain charge bonuses
Black Templars dread castle is quite brutal with 5++ and 6+++ from Grimaldus. Bring a chaplain with obSec aura, and helbrecht to give full rerolls to one of them and rr1s judiciar for 6" intervention and fight last.. this does play còdex warfare really well
I believe we will see many versions of the talons combined with the MM. Consider that you are already paying a good chunk of points for the base model, you might as well invest that little extra to make it extra deadly. The MM are interesting because as a melee dred you will get close, which gives you your melta bonus (half range = more damage). It could, in theory, kill two opposing dreds in one turn with that loadout. Now imagine seeing three of those coming at you.
Yesterday, I used the leaked Brutalis datasheet to proxy one of my Redemptors as a Brutalis (with the Talons), and paired it with a Redemptor for comparison, and tried them in two games. In the first game, I equipped the twin heavy bolters, but neither the bolters nor the stubbers were very effective against Ork Boyz or Nobz. Whereas when I charged in and used the talons, I killed 10 Nobz in three fight phases and suffered 6 wounds in return. My Brutalis then slugged it out with some Snagga Boyz before getting killed by Ghazghkull Thraka. The Brutalis more than paid for itself, but my Redemptor inflicted more damage that game and survived -- although the Brutalis was taking most of the heat. In the second game, I paid extra for the Multi-Meltas, which paid off by killing a Carnifex, and then the Brutalis killed 4 Tyranid Warriors in one fight phase, then finished off the remaining two, suffering 5 wounds. The Brutalis inflicted 6 wounds on a Tyrannofex with its MM and 9 wounds with its talons, suffering 4 wounds in return. Then it was charged by a Hive Tyrant and killed. The Brutalis inflicted more than twice its points value in damage, thanks largely to the Multi-Meltas. I anticipate that the Brutalis will be a prime target for shooting armies, and smart opponents will screen out their 3+ wound units to minimize the melee dreadnought's effectiveness. If the Brutalis gets gunned down to its lower stat lines before it gets to use its MMs and Talons, it'll be a waste of 200 points. I predict that the Brutalis is going to be a Hero or Zero unit. Regardless, I'm definitely getting one for my Black Templars army!
How dare you use a rational, well thought out argument on a GW forum? This kind of sense-making has no place here. 😄In all seriousness, I fully agree. It's either going to get shot to hell like Mortarion/Magnus first turn or it's going to be an off the chain train of destruction.
As a SW player, I dont feel these are worth it. Ven dreads with axe and shield or wulfen dreads are far more costed to move with a very similar melee profile. Plus, their survivability increases with those 5++ invulns. I currently field 3 ven dreads(for core and the FnP) and its extremely difficult for my playgroup to deal with that ball of coffins supported by some buffing pieces.
I have wanted to do a space wolf dread heavy list, this adds more options. Especially with a librarian to help shepherd a brick of them in with Storm Caller into Cloaked By the Storm. Expensive, but light cover and -1 to hit help them stay safe until it is go time.
If you go non successors you can go 6 dreads + bjorn and murderfang as elite characters are seperated from elite squads. Not sure about inquisition stuff in AOO but there is an inquisitor on a dread like throne that you can add
I plan to get one to go alongside my Redepmtor as a DA player. With two dreads, 3 squads of Termies, and my Ravenwing Apothecary it would be alot of fun.
I'm really surprised they didn't change the front to make it look more armored and tough like the Iron-Clad. As is, its very easy for someone to just buy a regular R-Dread and 3d print the new arms. Or if you've already magnetized your R-Dread put it on that.
I play imperial first, and the multi melta is preferable over the heavy bolters due to the super doc and having plus 1 dmg against vehicles. The fists v claws is either or. However the templars would take multi meltas. Would be cool if I could exchange that gun up top for a 3rd one 😁
Since I don't own a relic contemptor, Iron Hands march of the ancients extra attack, all flesh is weakness save, talons, and dev doctrine heavy bolters seems like a very good value for the points.
Let's not forget that as a dred, it can grab the wisdom of the ancients, giving itself and potential other charging units captain or lieutenant rerolls.
I'm inclined to take the fists due to their bolters for my Crimson Fists. It makes for a decently versatile dreadnought. I am not certain on the MM vs HB. The decent movement with the MM makes for some high probability of getting shots off in the Devastator Doctrine, but the HB is more versatile and the added shots are not nothing.
That's one of the few armies where it could potentially be optimal to do so, but I'd still say the re-rolling wounds and extra attack are better than a handful of bolter shots in most cases.
I’m debating which torso guns but when this is separate my Templars may crave a melee monster. At 200 points it’s a bit too pricey for me to charge along in there but maybe it’s worth it.
Where have these points been seen? Cuz if it’s from the rules in the box these were written ages ago before the points changes were made so we may see the drop the point or rid them altogether for the MM.
I think it depends. Black Templars for example best infantry is melee focused so having redemptor kinda balances out that army, guess I’ll just have to try it out
One thing though is that the Templars infantry is all S4-5 in melee aside from the handful of power fists. This brutalis could really help them crack open something and it still would get most of the melee synergy buffs that any Templar infantry does.
Would love to run this with the Iron Hands Battleforce. Two Redemptors laying down fire and a Brutalis running straight up the middle to rip and tear. SM don't really have any smash characters so thinking about this like a Daemon Prince
Kind of love the idea of putting this thing on the front lines with full bolter set up and a bunch of Imperial Fists. We suck anyway, may as well lean into the fluff right? xD
Considering it's going to be wounding most things on 2s anyway I don't really rate the re rolls of the talons. You can spend a cp or stand next to a Ltn for the same effect. The extra ap feels like it's rarely going to matter, once you're up to ap 3 people will likely be saving on invulns anyway so really the talons only feel worthwhile if you want the sweep attack.
@@thomaslloydlee5761 niiiice. I found this Templar set off Etsy that im gonna use. I just googled "grey tide eternal pilgrim black templars" and it was the first thing to come up.
renders the redemptor obsolete, letting this thing have 2x MM is a huge problem, shouldve been two heavy flamers option instead and stays at 170 points 15 points more over the redemptor to get 10" move, sweep profile claws, reroll all wounds claws, 2 MM that can be shot in combat unlike the macro plasma
@@anexistanthuman2435 If it costs that much people won't generally use it because it's already way too much of a target. Then the potential points loss if you lose the first turn or are unlucky just makes it another over costed marine vehicle. We just got to the point where SM vehicles are useable (if not necessarily optimal), let's not regress.
As a Dark Angels player this doesn't really offer me much, so ill stick with my Redemptor. If I ever get around to doing a blood angels force I'd probably use this guy instead.
Its crazy how good this dreadnought is compared to a leviathan. 10 vulkites is better than bolters and you get 2 melta guns but it isn't as good as double multi meltas and more attacks that do more damage. Finally, it moves faster and is much smaller.
Yeah but the Leviathan has an invuln save and better guns, also the base of the leviathan is smaller and so is the model. Like the Redemptor dwarfs all other dreddies.
I was thinking that the White scars advance and charge along with chaplin on bike would be scary... In theory you would have 13 - 18 advance + a 3 - 11 inch charge.. so on average I guess that is an 22 inch threat range for such a chunky boi.
It's weird that they even bothered to add the alternate fists to begin with. Rule of cool and just straight up better rules says you should take the Claws 100% of the time.
I could see the Multimeltas being good for Imperial fists as well while in devastator doctrine, damage D6+5 when in half range is pretty heavy hitting stuff i think.
Honestly, a mainly-fighty dreadnought seems like a bad idea conceptually. Dreads are meant to be versatile units that can do well both at range and in close. So if you have one that's too shooty, a tank does the job better and if you have one that's too fighty it can't really hold its own against the big heavy hitters that other races like demons have and they don't have the agility and movement of jump pack troops.
200 points is actually less than I thought; I was guesstimating 185 like the Redemptor and then +10 for each melta. I have zero issue paying 200 for this monster. 😈
@@frostedbutts4340yes, 8 shots. That's better but not terribly convincing. It's like they gave the model two options but gave the rules only one that's realistic.
@@frostedbutts4340 not only does it look silly, but heavy8 shots at 38" is really generous to point where it almost doesn't feel like that much of a tradeoff to take the claws, instead of fists
I keep see people compare this to a furiouso dreadnought, but if you put flamers in the palm of the claws this has all the profile of the iron dragon created by Vulkan.
@@MiloshBlack00 sorry but not true. Iron dragon was the prototype to the mark IV iron clad dreadnought the melee variant. The furiouso dreadnought is a ba specific variant that came out later.
I feel the multi-melters are a must upgrade even though it's 30 points. Since you are going to be close to your targets most of the game, that half range melter shots are going to be great.
I agree, because that was my experience yesterday when I proxied a Redemptor as a Brutalis to test it in a couple of casual games. The Brutalis was able to one-shot a Carnifex with its Multi-Melta and then inflicted 6 wounds on a Tyrannofex. Whereas when I equipped the heavy bolters, between the bolters and the stubbers, they only killed a few Boyz and a Nob. Don't expect much from the Brutalis' guns, unless you pay for the Multi-Meltas!
PRO TIP: Dreadnoughts are best used in groups. A single dread is vulnerable (especially when it's new cause everyone wants to take down the new shiny thing.) On the flip side, too many dreads can leave you tabled pretty quick against a strong opponent (But it's fun as hell to rock 5 or 6 of them) If you're dead set on a dread army, I'd go no higher than 4, then spend the rest of your points on support infantry. Iron hands are the obvious choice, but with fighty dreads like this Brutalis or the combat variant of the leviathan (or for that matter any dread with a combat arm) Then may I suggest either white scars for extra speed and damage, or perhaps BT for that sweet 5++.
these point costs are from before the balance patch (based on how much the leutenant costs), so GW may release a change for these units, and make for example all weapons free or make them cheaper or they may not do this :) it is a GW after all
My question is it says 170pts For Multimelta .......15pts So is it for the Multimelta option? It doesn't say each. Like u can't just have 1 Multimelta right? U have to get 2. It just seems worded wrong.
just a side note - i woke up this morning no longer subscribed, which i guess i could have done by accident, but i watch the vids almost like a ritual since you're so consistent, can't imagine why all of a sudden i wouldn't be subscribed. i've heard youtubers complain before that their subscribers were magically unsubbed/not getting notifications, just thought i'd let you know..
eh, im just kjind of dissapointed that it's just the redemptor dread. i wanted some different flavour like with the old dread nought having something different going on with them. kind of same boring stuff with the new spacemarine rocket squad... it's just the same armour, same helmets but with the stacked guns. meh..
He seems pretty well balanced compared to the regular redemptor and does exactly what was advertised: better melee at the expense of ranged firepower. I like it.
@@frostedbutts4340 yeah when you're talking anti tank, no question. It doesn't compete with full dakka for mowing down infantry and I think there's space for both.
the ranged firepower it has is all 36" though not 24" so its ranged firepower works out about the same if you can take advantage of the extra 12". that makes the brutalis outright better IMO.
@@Khobai You seem to be obsessed with range; HB's just aren't that amazing. 6 shots is only going to hit 4 times on average and even against T4 you're going to fail on at least 1 wound. You also keep ignoring the MPI has a range of 36." 🤔
It’s busted. It’s past strong. It’s cheaper than redempter, shoots better, moves more and has more wounds. It’s too efficient for points and clearly is a pushed product.
Not really. Regular Redemptors are just 'decent'.. T7 3+ just ain't that tough any more, especially without AOS. This is solid and works in a few builds but not broken.
Core, rerolls melee, a mere thirty points for melta, slots into any space marine army as a huge upgrade over the typical redempter, and almost certainly is going to punch above its weight…yeah for just 170/200 points it’s busted. And that’s before you give it legion traits.
@@landgin3781 that's not busted at all... Like what. It's still weak to anti armour weaponry and since it'll need to get closer to use most of its guns, it's easier to kill. To put this into perspective, 200 pts is around the price for a fully kitted out relic contemptor with a missile pod and guns and an invuln. This thing still has the issues the Redemptor has, it's just not as weak to being turned off by getting into melee.
@@landgin3781 "Just 200 points?" Because after FINALLY getting over costed SM vehicles to playable levels, what we need is to have dreadnoughts meant for melee cost a ton and paint giant targets on themselves? It can (and will) be easily nuked by any army at range. Hide it behind terrain you say? Well enjoy not shooting and not moving towards melee, exactly where you want it to be. T7, 13W and -1D just isn't that strong, especially in a world where melta-type weapons exist. Just 2 attack bikes can move 14," shoot 12," hit 3 times out of 4 shots, wound twice and do 2d6+4 damage. At average damage that's 9 wounds and yay, you're now WS/BS4+, 6" movement and about to die.
The Redemptor is completely obsolete now. The Brutalis is so much better. it costs less, its way faster, its way better in melee with talons, and it has 36" range on pretty much all its guns compared to the mostly 24" guns on the redemptor. If you can manage an extra turn of shooting with the +12" increased range on its guns then the ranged firepower difference becomes mostly negligiable. The redemptor really needs a stronger primary ranged weapon to properly compete with the brutalis.
You're very mistaken here, about quite a lot. It only costs less if you take the HBs which are very sub-optimal for most chapters. The Redemptor's main gun is 36" and does quite a bit of damage, with the potential to do more AND it can kill vehicles/monsters that the HB can only tickle. While the Brutalis is vastly superior in melee, it has to make it there first and will be a humongous target with those MMs. I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the entire video here and just came up with a knee-jerk reaction. AT does a wonderful job of explaining the pros and cons of both and each still has a VERY viable role.
It's good, at the current points not amazing but if it gets a cut it's a top unit, the claws adding those re-rolls makes it a very powerful melee unit, you've just got to get it there.
WHY/HOW does this thing move 10. INCHES. like, i thought these things were slow.. i know it's a CC unit, so it needs to get in there, but most dreads are 6" - going to 10" is straight up 66% faster than other dreads. hopefully they have a half-decent lore reason why this thing is so goddamn fast
@@XealotCoils 36" range is shorter than 18"-24" range? nope. wrong. brutalis actually has longer range with heavy bolters and stubbers being 36". its faster with longer range and better melee. and cheaper.
@@Khobai Ah yes a twin linked heavy stubber and two heavy bolters are comparable to a macro plasma incinerator. Also FYI, the plasma incinerator is 36 inch range. So you're wrong on it being longer ranged. Like you know how it works right? You sacrifice something to get better at something else. The Brutalis at base loses out on ranged anti armour for more melee power. That is how you compromise. Now you could argue that the brutalis with the MM does a better job, but it also costs more than the Redemptor with all of the bells and whistles. So try again.
I like GWs absolutely stupid design. With both melee profiles, they've basically written off the fists completely. Both get x2 str rather than talons, likely only getting +2 on smash. Talons get more AP and also get an alternative profile. Smash profile still dealing d3+3 rather than 3 or 4 flat Both are free inclusions so there is 0 incentive to ever take fists
It's fun, but overcosted. You can't price meltaguns like that when the purpose of the unit is to barrel forwards, so if it's that expensive the risk goes up exponentially and the cost is unjustified. Also I'd like to ask why we have two different redemptors when there's a leviathan and contemptor with all the upgrades in one box each. This is dumb. Make a new box with both kit options. I'd like to get one for fun, as a collector and because it'd pair well with the standard redemptor for a walker list (for fun, mostly). I also think the redemptor is GIGANTICLY overrated due to its macro plasma being a 1d6 attacks weapon, which is ludicrously swingy. Bottom line, I think both are overcosted distraction carnifex'.
@@Khobai "arguably" = "in specific situations" Three things: 1. I don't think the Redemptor is well designed or that the stat line is good. 2. You can bring down the cost for the Brutalis overall rather than just throw a huge penalty cost on the meltaguns. 3. 1:1 costs are a fallacy and an argument born out of contrarianism - Balance for balance's sake, not a an adjustment that makes the game better.
@@Smilomaniac what is better than a brutalis for 170 points? you havent explained why you dont think its good. the brutalis is absolutely good enough to see competitive play and it will. because its way better than a redemptor and redemptors are considered a strong choice for competitive play.
Im not a huge fan of Primaris stuff getting a billion extra guns thrown on for no reason. Like, here is the "Melee Dreadnaut" But lets give it 4 mleta shots and 8 stubbers
This is going to give Salamanders and BA a huge threat on the board. I love it! Salamanders don't get the love so I'm happy when something like this comes around indirectly
Will not lie, as a BA player, I'm planning on two of these dreadnoughts. Just have to wait a month or so to be able to pay them individually.
dont forget WS I'm planning on running 2 of these
nevermind those legions. SPACE WOLVES.
Building Salamanders right now, and I want to include one of these so bad. Only problem is that I have no use for the dumb missile marines.
Black Templars with the 5+ Invul vow w/ a 6+ FNP from Grimaldus. Wow!
GW: Here you go, SM - a melee dreadnought.
SM: Thanks, man!
CSM: Melee? It has so many guns it needs to carry two of them in the armpits.
GW: That's normal.
CSM: Oh, so can our Helbru-
GW: No.
CSM: 😢
You need to buy the Brutalis Helbrute
To be fair your helbrute gets actual armpits. The sweat from them is great for growing fruit in the warp!
To be honest, a heavier hellbrute option would be awesome to see.
@@riley3087 a resculpted Helbrute to match a Redemptor’s size, and then an “Exalted” upgrade option for it 😂
@@TopazTiger2000 only if it gets a sonic upgrade for EC
I can't wait to charge this thing in as a space wolf with Born Heros and Whirlwind Rage, while getting full re-rolls for a Chaplin or chapter master. Truly and obscene amount of melee hits
For Russ!!!
Yep, I'm looking at my list to see what I have to give up to spare 400pts for 2 of these with meltas to slot in. Might replace my thunderwolves, they don't really deliver the goods these days.
It’d be kinda hilarious to have 3 of them buffed with techmarine with warden of the ancients in blood angels. In assault doctrine you could get a max of 8 attacks on two’s, wounding on two’s (unless transhuman) re-rolling at ap-5, d3+3dmg out of one of them. Seems fun
I was thinking much the same. Pairing in Librarians for buffing makes for a very nasty, very killy unit. Obviously Unleash Rage comes to mind, but Might of Heroes does as well.
The techmarine only gives +1 to hit with ranged weapons.
Just a thought for Raven Guard (as I will play it): Being CORE, the new Dread can Advance together with Chaplain on Bike with "Swift and Deadly" WT and then still Charge. If taken as RG Successors with "Hungry for Battle", that gives it some scary threat range...
Still sad that the only viable way still to get any real damage when playing RG is to take them as a successor...to their own legion lol. I'm really praying 10th is the end to these edition long bad rules.
For anyone who doesn't know yet the imperium magazine subscription is being extended by another 10 issues. Thought this would be the best place to drop it
Fuckin sweet.
Might be overkill but in Black Templars, as he's Core; you can give him Pslam of Remorseless Persecution and Chapter Master Reroll's. With the Claws sweep profile this gets you reroll hits, reroll wounds and 6's to wound do one mortal wound (up to 6). Probably a chunk of mortals go through with this combo.
All blood angels players , lets chant together
" give us a Death Company uppgrade on it"
Don't forget deathwatch, can put a 6" 5+invuln bubble around them with Relic storm shield and also drop them anywhere on the board turn 2 for 1cp
I don't understand how he can take this relic without having a storm shield, relic shield or combat shield in his vargear?
@@airtrack2607 a Charaacter holds the shield not the dreadnought
@@airtrack2607 ah sorry, for example a captain with a relic shield called "dominus aegis" gives out a 6" invuln bubble to anything core. The dread doesn't carry it.
Honestly, for the same reason I see the melta upgrade being chapter dependent, I can also see more shootier chapters taking the fists with the heavy bolters for more shots overall with ever so slightly worse melee damage, as well as a lesser point hit, which allows for more/different units for (potentially) even more shots.
I plan on running them in Salamanders with He’Stan nearby. Reroll all hits and wounds on the two multi meltas and hits of 1 on the melee
There's also some flexibility in Black Templar lists that are running "accept any challenge" as they can stay in tactical doctrine and get the ap-2 on the bolt rifles and still get assault doctrine on the charge. The additional 8 shots at S4 ap -2 let the dread clear chaff more efficiently without having to commit to a charge. Fortunately it looks like the kit should be easy enough to magnetize.
I wonder how hard it will be to magnetize.
I can see all the load outs being useful depending on chapters.
Chest find will be a little harder than the Redemptor but claws/fists should be fairly simple and Bolt rifles/no bolt rifles also shouldn’t be that bad
With Iron Hands you could make him a character and give him the warlord trait(imperiums sword i think) for +1 attack and strength on charge and combine this with the master of the forge warlord trait (warden of the ancients) for an additional +1 attack and strength. So you get 8A at S16 d3+3 dmg or 16A at S9 1dmg. Which is pretty good but will cost you 2cp as well as the techmarine with master of the forge.
Edit: You have to use march of the ancients to make him a character and then give him a warlord trait using the hero of the chapter stratagem, thats why it would cost 3cp in total forgot one. Also march of the ancientsgives +1 A so he would have 9A / 18A.
You can only give dreadnaught Iron Hands WLT when using march of ancients
Give the might of Heroes buff also for 9A at str 17.
@@nukedukem4260 is it true?
@@igorcomedyman3160 yes
@@nukedukem4260 No you would use hero of the chapter as well thats why it would cost 2cp. march of ancients does not give any WLT.
Do you think there is any way that Vashtor will help the chaos side make some sort of primaris chaos dreads or marines, with the dark mechanics magic? Just a thought
chaos primaris is Bile's project
@@tonycajefe That would be way too boring for Bile, he'd use Primaris parts to make total freaks
Think it'll happen from either source?
Chaos marines are still more skilled and aggressive than primaris. Vashtorr will probably provide them with more daemon engines to play with, but the blessings of the dark gods are better than being a primaris anyways
White scars having a 1cp advance and shoot guns as assault allows it to really get in there turn 2 with HB profile and if it survives than turn 3 cycle charge in and get damage 2 sweeps.
I could consider taking some as an alternative to terminators in deepstrike from librarian/chaplain charge bonuses
This thing is going to be nasty with Scars I'm definitely picking one up when it gets a separate kit
I haven't seen many talk about these with scars but they're almost tempting me to dust them off and get 3 to run!
Black Templars dread castle is quite brutal with 5++ and 6+++ from Grimaldus. Bring a chaplain with obSec aura, and helbrecht to give full rerolls to one of them and rr1s judiciar for 6" intervention and fight last.. this does play còdex warfare really well
Got two on the way for my Carcharodons. Super excited for this.
I feel your pain man. My minotaurs got one right before the axe fell
I believe we will see many versions of the talons combined with the MM. Consider that you are already paying a good chunk of points for the base model, you might as well invest that little extra to make it extra deadly. The MM are interesting because as a melee dred you will get close, which gives you your melta bonus (half range = more damage). It could, in theory, kill two opposing dreds in one turn with that loadout. Now imagine seeing three of those coming at you.
Yesterday, I used the leaked Brutalis datasheet to proxy one of my Redemptors as a Brutalis (with the Talons), and paired it with a Redemptor for comparison, and tried them in two games.
In the first game, I equipped the twin heavy bolters, but neither the bolters nor the stubbers were very effective against Ork Boyz or Nobz. Whereas when I charged in and used the talons, I killed 10 Nobz in three fight phases and suffered 6 wounds in return. My Brutalis then slugged it out with some Snagga Boyz before getting killed by Ghazghkull Thraka. The Brutalis more than paid for itself, but my Redemptor inflicted more damage that game and survived -- although the Brutalis was taking most of the heat.
In the second game, I paid extra for the Multi-Meltas, which paid off by killing a Carnifex, and then the Brutalis killed 4 Tyranid Warriors in one fight phase, then finished off the remaining two, suffering 5 wounds. The Brutalis inflicted 6 wounds on a Tyrannofex with its MM and 9 wounds with its talons, suffering 4 wounds in return. Then it was charged by a Hive Tyrant and killed. The Brutalis inflicted more than twice its points value in damage, thanks largely to the Multi-Meltas.
I anticipate that the Brutalis will be a prime target for shooting armies, and smart opponents will screen out their 3+ wound units to minimize the melee dreadnought's effectiveness. If the Brutalis gets gunned down to its lower stat lines before it gets to use its MMs and Talons, it'll be a waste of 200 points.
I predict that the Brutalis is going to be a Hero or Zero unit. Regardless, I'm definitely getting one for my Black Templars army!
How dare you use a rational, well thought out argument on a GW forum? This kind of sense-making has no place here. 😄In all seriousness, I fully agree. It's either going to get shot to hell like Mortarion/Magnus first turn or it's going to be an off the chain train of destruction.
As a SW player, I dont feel these are worth it. Ven dreads with axe and shield or wulfen dreads are far more costed to move with a very similar melee profile. Plus, their survivability increases with those 5++ invulns. I currently field 3 ven dreads(for core and the FnP) and its extremely difficult for my playgroup to deal with that ball of coffins supported by some buffing pieces.
I have wanted to do a space wolf dread heavy list, this adds more options. Especially with a librarian to help shepherd a brick of them in with Storm Caller into Cloaked By the Storm. Expensive, but light cover and -1 to hit help them stay safe until it is go time.
If you go non successors you can go 6 dreads + bjorn and murderfang as elite characters are seperated from elite squads. Not sure about inquisition stuff in AOO but there is an inquisitor on a dread like throne that you can add
I plan to get one to go alongside my Redepmtor as a DA player. With two dreads, 3 squads of Termies, and my Ravenwing Apothecary it would be alot of fun.
I'm really surprised they didn't change the front to make it look more armored and tough like the Iron-Clad. As is, its very easy for someone to just buy a regular R-Dread and 3d print the new arms. Or if you've already magnetized your R-Dread put it on that.
I play imperial first, and the multi melta is preferable over the heavy bolters due to the super doc and having plus 1 dmg against vehicles. The fists v claws is either or. However the templars would take multi meltas. Would be cool if I could exchange that gun up top for a 3rd one 😁
Since I don't own a relic contemptor, Iron Hands march of the ancients extra attack, all flesh is weakness save, talons, and dev doctrine heavy bolters seems like a very good value for the points.
I like meltas, ironically could be a good choice for melee armies who need more anti-armor
Let's not forget that as a dred, it can grab the wisdom of the ancients, giving itself and potential other charging units captain or lieutenant rerolls.
As I currently run 2 ironclads in every list, this is just a nice upgrade. I’d probably field one of each type now
I'm inclined to take the fists due to their bolters for my Crimson Fists. It makes for a decently versatile dreadnought. I am not certain on the MM vs HB. The decent movement with the MM makes for some high probability of getting shots off in the Devastator Doctrine, but the HB is more versatile and the added shots are not nothing.
Same for imperial
That's one of the few armies where it could potentially be optimal to do so, but I'd still say the re-rolling wounds and extra attack are better than a handful of bolter shots in most cases.
I’m debating which torso guns but when this is separate my Templars may crave a melee monster. At 200 points it’s a bit too pricey for me to charge along in there but maybe it’s worth it.
I do really appreciate the fact that it's not just objectively better than the Redemptor
200 is better than I thought it would be with the meltas.
Where have these points been seen? Cuz if it’s from the rules in the box these were written ages ago before the points changes were made so we may see the drop the point or rid them altogether for the MM.
With the meltas and talons, he can melt a leviathan dread or a a greater daemon...
I think it depends. Black Templars for example best infantry is melee focused so having redemptor kinda balances out that army, guess I’ll just have to try it out
One thing though is that the Templars infantry is all S4-5 in melee aside from the handful of power fists. This brutalis could really help them crack open something and it still would get most of the melee synergy buffs that any Templar infantry does.
@@timunderbakke8756 Pretty much all SM melee is in the same boat, outside of BA.
Honestly, as a Blood Angel player I was going to get one of these - the stats on it just make that a better decision. 👍😀👍
Would love to run this with the Iron Hands Battleforce. Two Redemptors laying down fire and a Brutalis running straight up the middle to rip and tear. SM don't really have any smash characters so thinking about this like a Daemon Prince
Kind of love the idea of putting this thing on the front lines with full bolter set up and a bunch of Imperial Fists. We suck anyway, may as well lean into the fluff right? xD
Considering it's going to be wounding most things on 2s anyway I don't really rate the re rolls of the talons. You can spend a cp or stand next to a Ltn for the same effect. The extra ap feels like it's rarely going to matter, once you're up to ap 3 people will likely be saving on invulns anyway so really the talons only feel worthwhile if you want the sweep attack.
Planning to kitbash it with a giant sword for use with my Templars. That 5++ is gonna be great.
That’s my exact same idea bro. Thinking of using a dreadknight sword!
@@thomaslloydlee5761 niiiice. I found this Templar set off Etsy that im gonna use. I just googled
"grey tide eternal pilgrim black templars" and it was the first thing to come up.
@@UncleBashface1 ah thanks brother! I’ll check it out!
Could you compare it to the Furioso Dreadnought because I'd like to know what happens to it now?
Whirlwind of rage and born heroes just to make sure
renders the redemptor obsolete, letting this thing have 2x MM is a huge problem, shouldve been two heavy flamers option instead and stays at 170 points
15 points more over the redemptor to get 10" move, sweep profile claws, reroll all wounds claws, 2 MM that can be shot in combat unlike the macro plasma
Redemptors looking slightly worse-off comparatively < Being able to run 6 redemptor chassis in one list
This thing needs to be 185 points base and 215 with meltas
@@anexistanthuman2435 If it costs that much people won't generally use it because it's already way too much of a target. Then the potential points loss if you lose the first turn or are unlucky just makes it another over costed marine vehicle. We just got to the point where SM vehicles are useable (if not necessarily optimal), let's not regress.
@@JimH. I suppose SM does need a win after being sub 40% win rate for so long
The big thing for talons is they’ll help a ton vs dark angels terminators too so itll help to other space marine chapters to beat deathwing
As a Dark Angels player this doesn't really offer me much, so ill stick with my Redemptor. If I ever get around to doing a blood angels force I'd probably use this guy instead.
Still find it hilarious that it is a 'melee' focused dreadnought but is still just absolutely covered in great guns.
So :
It can shooting'✔
It can melee✔
but can it deepstrike enemy infantry ❓
No but It can give them a proctology exam
You see the size of those fists? It can deepstrike enemy infantry two models at a time!
This thing will be a menace with black templarz
Its crazy how good this dreadnought is compared to a leviathan. 10 vulkites is better than bolters and you get 2 melta guns but it isn't as good as double multi meltas and more attacks that do more damage. Finally, it moves faster and is much smaller.
Yeah but the Leviathan has an invuln save and better guns, also the base of the leviathan is smaller and so is the model. Like the Redemptor dwarfs all other dreddies.
Building one right now as I watch this 🥶
Thanks for giving points costs first thing in the video
Where can I buy a Brutalis Dreadnought ? Without any other things in the box just the dread? Is it even out by itself ?
Just magnetize the arms. Bam now you can have any dread you want.
Better yet put in a sock and swing it at your opponent for direct damage.
I was thinking that the White scars advance and charge along with chaplin on bike would be scary...
In theory you would have 13 - 18 advance + a 3 - 11 inch charge.. so on average I guess that is an 22 inch threat range for such a chunky boi.
It's weird that they even bothered to add the alternate fists to begin with. Rule of cool and just straight up better rules says you should take the Claws 100% of the time.
Unless you are Imperial Fists. The yellow boys do love their bolters and, well... fists
Nope. Fists for life 👊
Good video. Thank you, Auspex Tactics
Some heavy flamers would have been so nice
Honestly I'm really surprised they didn't have that option, or even the option of 2 incendium cannons.
I for one really like the bolt rifle fists and heavy bolters build
I also like all the bolts.
I could see the Multimeltas being good for Imperial fists as well while in devastator doctrine, damage D6+5 when in half range is pretty heavy hitting stuff i think.
The MM would only be D6+3 for Fists. We only get +1 to damage to heavy weapons of S7 or higher when shooting at vehicles or buildings.
Honestly, a mainly-fighty dreadnought seems like a bad idea conceptually. Dreads are meant to be versatile units that can do well both at range and in close. So if you have one that's too shooty, a tank does the job better and if you have one that's too fighty it can't really hold its own against the big heavy hitters that other races like demons have and they don't have the agility and movement of jump pack troops.
200 points is actually less than I thought; I was guesstimating 185 like the Redemptor and then +10 for each melta. I have zero issue paying 200 for this monster. 😈
What would be best in U.M. the bolters or melta?
Salamander Library give it a toughness one with drake skin
I don't see why you'd ever take the regular fists over the claws. Two str4, AP -1 shots isn't even a matter for debate.
8 shots. But yeah the claws really should have a worse Strike profile to be balanced
@@frostedbutts4340yes, 8 shots. That's better but not terribly convincing. It's like they gave the model two options but gave the rules only one that's realistic.
Fantastic video. But Why oh why did they have to put that silly stubber on top?
Can space wolves put a blizzard shield on these yet? 🐺😛4++
Wish a sword / spear / axe and shield was an option for everyone, but no.
Imagine if we could swords or spears on dreadnoughts too. I want that.
@@LysimedVenteel Only custodes, the emperors special snowflakes, are allowed to have dreads with swords and shields, alas
Very good defender. Its good unit for all SM against deamons, monsters that charge and makes marines carnage.
If the answer is anything but "yes" I'll be shocked
The Ironhail Twin Stubber feels a bit awkward on the model. Almost as if someone added it as a 'scumbag hat' for laughs, but the joke got out of hand
Yeah I prefer the compact AA missile from the regular one
@@frostedbutts4340 not only does it look silly, but heavy8 shots at 38" is really generous to point where it almost doesn't feel like that much of a tradeoff to take the claws, instead of fists
Iron hands: we will take either version becuase no matter what we will buff it and benefit from it
They pretty good but i still preffer the eldar ones
Isnt it 15 for each? Since there are two of them.
Can this be taken with Grey knights?
No.
@Jim H. grrr, the one downside of finally find a SM force I like is they are so limited on units.
They 100% made this because of how popular the Custodes dreads are...
Yeah I’ll buy like 5 of these holy shit
Wait for the post 2 week nerf then decide
“Big plasma energy” 😂
It depends what buffs it gets with the Ultramarines.
It gets the same buffs any other UM unit gets. At least until 10th changes everything.
This would be so fun to run in Blood Angels Army. I think it'd look good in Death Company colours too
If it encourages something besides sanguinary guard spam I’m all for it.
Some cool photo edits out of DC brutalis dreads
@@Chris-jl6vp I think you're going to see that go away in 10th. Not the unit, but the spam. No proof, just a feeling I have.
I keep see people compare this to a furiouso dreadnought, but if you put flamers in the palm of the claws this has all the profile of the iron dragon created by Vulkan.
It is normal that they compare it with the Furioso, since it is the original melee dreadnought.
@@MiloshBlack00 sorry but not true. Iron dragon was the prototype to the mark IV iron clad dreadnought the melee variant. The furiouso dreadnought is a ba specific variant that came out later.
@@seanjarnagin9492 I mean it was the first one that went on sale, not in the lore, obviously the casteferrum model dreadnoughts came out later.
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Deathwatch placing brutalis dread in the teleportrium?
I feel the multi-melters are a must upgrade even though it's 30 points. Since you are going to be close to your targets most of the game, that half range melter shots are going to be great.
I agree, because that was my experience yesterday when I proxied a Redemptor as a Brutalis to test it in a couple of casual games. The Brutalis was able to one-shot a Carnifex with its Multi-Melta and then inflicted 6 wounds on a Tyrannofex. Whereas when I equipped the heavy bolters, between the bolters and the stubbers, they only killed a few Boyz and a Nob.
Don't expect much from the Brutalis' guns, unless you pay for the Multi-Meltas!
@@reavern Yep, HB just aren't great in 9th.
PRO TIP: Dreadnoughts are best used in groups. A single dread is vulnerable (especially when it's new cause everyone wants to take down the new shiny thing.) On the flip side, too many dreads can leave you tabled pretty quick against a strong opponent (But it's fun as hell to rock 5 or 6 of them) If you're dead set on a dread army, I'd go no higher than 4, then spend the rest of your points on support infantry. Iron hands are the obvious choice, but with fighty dreads like this Brutalis or the combat variant of the leviathan (or for that matter any dread with a combat arm) Then may I suggest either white scars for extra speed and damage, or perhaps BT for that sweet 5++.
Sorry what's BT?
@@dylananderson1055Black Templars
@@alexlyster3459 *Tips my hat* Thank you kindly
these point costs are from before the balance patch (based on how much the leutenant costs), so GW may release a change for these units, and make for example all weapons free or make them cheaper or they may not do this :) it is a GW after all
My question is it says 170pts
For Multimelta .......15pts
So is it for the Multimelta option? It doesn't say each. Like u can't just have 1 Multimelta right? U have to get 2. It just seems worded wrong.
Crusadin' time!
fressssh tactics for the tactic god
My space wolves are going to love the reinforcement... a great distraction, Dreadnought!!
*laughts in Wulfen Dreadnaught
just a side note - i woke up this morning no longer subscribed, which i guess i could have done by accident, but i watch the vids almost like a ritual since you're so consistent, can't imagine why all of a sudden i wouldn't be subscribed. i've heard youtubers complain before that their subscribers were magically unsubbed/not getting notifications, just thought i'd let you know..
I love it, but I do feel they missed an opportunity with the fists. Should've been either flat dmg 5 or give them heavy bolters not bolt rifles.
eh, im just kjind of dissapointed that it's just the redemptor dread. i wanted some different flavour like with the old dread nought having something different going on with them. kind of same boring stuff with the new spacemarine rocket squad... it's just the same armour, same helmets but with the stacked guns. meh..
He seems pretty well balanced compared to the regular redemptor and does exactly what was advertised: better melee at the expense of ranged firepower. I like it.
Problem is the firepower is almost -better- with the 4 MM shots.. overall it's not crazy OP but it does leave the OG behind a bit.
@@frostedbutts4340 yeah when you're talking anti tank, no question. It doesn't compete with full dakka for mowing down infantry and I think there's space for both.
the ranged firepower it has is all 36" though not 24" so its ranged firepower works out about the same if you can take advantage of the extra 12". that makes the brutalis outright better IMO.
@@Khobai You seem to be obsessed with range; HB's just aren't that amazing. 6 shots is only going to hit 4 times on average and even against T4 you're going to fail on at least 1 wound. You also keep ignoring the MPI has a range of 36." 🤔
It’s busted. It’s past strong. It’s cheaper than redempter, shoots better, moves more and has more wounds. It’s too efficient for points and clearly is a pushed product.
Not really. Regular Redemptors are just 'decent'.. T7 3+ just ain't that tough any more, especially without AOS.
This is solid and works in a few builds but not broken.
Core, rerolls melee, a mere thirty points for melta, slots into any space marine army as a huge upgrade over the typical redempter, and almost certainly is going to punch above its weight…yeah for just 170/200 points it’s busted. And that’s before you give it legion traits.
To be fair, it can be cheaper and can shoot better but not both at the same time.
@@landgin3781 that's not busted at all... Like what. It's still weak to anti armour weaponry and since it'll need to get closer to use most of its guns, it's easier to kill.
To put this into perspective, 200 pts is around the price for a fully kitted out relic contemptor with a missile pod and guns and an invuln.
This thing still has the issues the Redemptor has, it's just not as weak to being turned off by getting into melee.
@@landgin3781 "Just 200 points?" Because after FINALLY getting over costed SM vehicles to playable levels, what we need is to have dreadnoughts meant for melee cost a ton and paint giant targets on themselves? It can (and will) be easily nuked by any army at range. Hide it behind terrain you say? Well enjoy not shooting and not moving towards melee, exactly where you want it to be. T7, 13W and -1D just isn't that strong, especially in a world where melta-type weapons exist. Just 2 attack bikes can move 14," shoot 12," hit 3 times out of 4 shots, wound twice and do 2d6+4 damage. At average damage that's 9 wounds and yay, you're now WS/BS4+, 6" movement and about to die.
The Redemptor is completely obsolete now. The Brutalis is so much better. it costs less, its way faster, its way better in melee with talons, and it has 36" range on pretty much all its guns compared to the mostly 24" guns on the redemptor. If you can manage an extra turn of shooting with the +12" increased range on its guns then the ranged firepower difference becomes mostly negligiable. The redemptor really needs a stronger primary ranged weapon to properly compete with the brutalis.
You're very mistaken here, about quite a lot. It only costs less if you take the HBs which are very sub-optimal for most chapters. The Redemptor's main gun is 36" and does quite a bit of damage, with the potential to do more AND it can kill vehicles/monsters that the HB can only tickle. While the Brutalis is vastly superior in melee, it has to make it there first and will be a humongous target with those MMs.
I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the entire video here and just came up with a knee-jerk reaction. AT does a wonderful job of explaining the pros and cons of both and each still has a VERY viable role.
It's good, at the current points not amazing but if it gets a cut it's a top unit, the claws adding those re-rolls makes it a very powerful melee unit, you've just got to get it there.
WHY/HOW does this thing move 10. INCHES. like, i thought these things were slow.. i know it's a CC unit, so it needs to get in there, but most dreads are 6" - going to 10" is straight up 66% faster than other dreads. hopefully they have a half-decent lore reason why this thing is so goddamn fast
Redemptors are 8 inch move. They're the size of leviathans but never described as slow
it should not move 10", thats one of the reasons it makes the redemptor obsolete
@@Khobai it needs to move faster since most of its guns are shorter range.
@@XealotCoils 36" range is shorter than 18"-24" range? nope. wrong. brutalis actually has longer range with heavy bolters and stubbers being 36". its faster with longer range and better melee. and cheaper.
@@Khobai Ah yes a twin linked heavy stubber and two heavy bolters are comparable to a macro plasma incinerator. Also FYI, the plasma incinerator is 36 inch range. So you're wrong on it being longer ranged.
Like you know how it works right? You sacrifice something to get better at something else. The Brutalis at base loses out on ranged anti armour for more melee power. That is how you compromise.
Now you could argue that the brutalis with the MM does a better job, but it also costs more than the Redemptor with all of the bells and whistles. So try again.
I like GWs absolutely stupid design. With both melee profiles, they've basically written off the fists completely. Both get x2 str rather than talons, likely only getting +2 on smash. Talons get more AP and also get an alternative profile. Smash profile still dealing d3+3 rather than 3 or 4 flat
Both are free inclusions so there is 0 incentive to ever take fists
the reroll wounds is what makes the talons significantly better. it means it will obliterate T8+.
will be 4. video about this unit? it smells like advertisement.
It's fun, but overcosted. You can't price meltaguns like that when the purpose of the unit is to barrel forwards, so if it's that expensive the risk goes up exponentially and the cost is unjustified.
Also I'd like to ask why we have two different redemptors when there's a leviathan and contemptor with all the upgrades in one box each. This is dumb. Make a new box with both kit options.
I'd like to get one for fun, as a collector and because it'd pair well with the standard redemptor for a walker list (for fun, mostly). I also think the redemptor is GIGANTICLY overrated due to its macro plasma being a 1d6 attacks weapon, which is ludicrously swingy. Bottom line, I think both are overcosted distraction carnifex'.
um the melta is optional? without the melta its still arguably way better than the redemptor.
@@Khobai "arguably" = "in specific situations"
Three things:
1. I don't think the Redemptor is well designed or that the stat line is good.
2. You can bring down the cost for the Brutalis overall rather than just throw a huge penalty cost on the meltaguns.
3. 1:1 costs are a fallacy and an argument born out of contrarianism - Balance for balance's sake, not a an adjustment that makes the game better.
@@Smilomaniac you cant lower the cost of the brutalis because its already insanely good for 170 points
@@Khobai lol
@@Smilomaniac what is better than a brutalis for 170 points? you havent explained why you dont think its good. the brutalis is absolutely good enough to see competitive play and it will. because its way better than a redemptor and redemptors are considered a strong choice for competitive play.
Im not a huge fan of Primaris stuff getting a billion extra guns thrown on for no reason. Like, here is the "Melee Dreadnaut" But lets give it 4 mleta shots and 8 stubbers