Did Sony Lie? - Testing Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart on PC
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- I made this video in 6 hours lmao
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• Ratchet & Clank: Rift ...
Twitter: / swallowfire
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Wanted to search for an in depth rift apart storage analysis but here comes the algorithm to recommend exactly that
This is what i assumed digital foundry would do, but they didn't so this is great content
To play mild devil's advocate, when Insomniac was making Marvel's Spider-man on PS4, the bus was just barely too slow to handle the animation data being stream off the drive for cutscenes. To get around this, instead of storing all of the animation data as discrete vectors, they stored them as the diffs between the vectors. So when something held still, no bytes were used, and motion was just the difference between each point. It was enough to get them up to an acceptable framerate on PS4.
I believe that Tim Sweeny's comments were more to that side of the industry, and the bandwidth limitations of the PS4.
Ratchet and Clank on the Ps4 would have required some really wild innovative data compression techniques, but on the ps5 the bus is plenty fast.
didn't understand a single thing but seems very interesting topic! how to delve into this? There is someone on youtube that explain it?
@@albertomontori2863 Look up kraken decompression and direct storage 1.2
Doesn't the PS5 also have a decompression unit that's as fast as a separate cpu?
I always thought that it was about the mix of a fast enough ssd and the decompression they offload to dedicated Hardware.
Thanks for the video!
Never thought about launching a PC game from a MicroSD Card :D
@@60weHoodsta it has also sperated hw for using kraken decompresion (in this specific algorythim is like 7cpu)
Which is why even with the fastest ssd in a PC, it's still not as smooth as the PS5's transitions.
Yes. People usually talk about the "SSD" but it's about the IO. The PS5 can decompress "kraken" based lossless compression on drive, and dump this DIRECTLY into VRAM for immediate use, not requiring the CPU or RAM as an intermediary for shuttling data. This is a huge advantage for streaming. And if you mmap the SSD volume, you can effectively use it like slow RAM, given its deterministic access times.
But that's not all! When carefully compressing your textures to take advantage of Kraken, you can minimize lossy quality degredation, and achieve equivalent transfers of 9 to 11GB/s from the drive (compared to visually similarly detailed textures), while keeping your CPU cores virtually free of doing ANY lifting. The last point is important: since PS5's holds its frequencies constant for deterministic behaviour, this ensures that developer can keep the CPU thermals low, while the GPU runs hot (and fast). Thus it will run on the PS5 the same way EVERY time, making it very useful for developers pushing the system to its max.
The PS5 is a streaming POWERHOUSE. It's not about "loading" speed, its advantages lie in streaming assets in as they are needed. Traditional game development loads entire levels or large sections of levels. The PS5 IO architecture is fast enough to stream what the camera sees, just before it sees it. That means that the 16GB of VRAM can have assets devoted almost entirely to the frame being rendered, not something that "may" be seen later. This is why it can actually improve graphics: significantly more RAM can be used to hold assets!
But there are 3 things worth noting.
1) Streaming data isn't like turning on a feature, your game has to be built this way. This means that PS5 engines (particularly with exclusive games) will increasingly use this capability as they become more ambitious. Sadly, that means that this feature will play a role in games toward the end of the PS5 life-cycle, likely starting at the mid-point. But we can expect some PS5 games that continue to trade-punches with top-end PCs in image quality despite it starting at $399 and being 5+ years old.
2) The bottleneck is the archive size of the game itself. If a game is, say, 50GB of assets, there is only so much that can be streamed into RAM. This implies that developers will have to mix-and-match assets to fully utilize this capability rather than hand painting scenes. For example, you may stream in a wall #2, table #7, and window #5 to make a room, while another would have different combination of components.
3) Because baked lighting is less necessary with real-time lighting techniques (eg. surfels, SSGI, etc), there is more room for assets (geometry, material textures, normal maps, look up tables, etc).
The PS5 is a very well designed system. Of course a high-spec'd PC will outclass it in a punch-for-punch fight. But consider Rift Apart: DF pit the entire PS5 system (starting at $399US) against a GPU that costs 4x MORE (starting at $1600 and not including the system!), and is holding its own rather admirably.
@@SeanLumly I'm glad people understand the tech behind PS5.
@@SeanLumlyFinally you very well explained how the the PS5'S SSD work not just faster loading times but streaming game assets lightning fast on the go.
Demon's Souls remake is also a PS5-only exclusive, and (IMO) one of the prettiest games of all time. And how can we forget Astro's Playroom!
And if you include DLC-that-is-almost-a-full-game, there's Frozen Wilds, and VR has a few as well.
It's not an extensive list, but it's a good showing for only 3 years into the PS5 life-cycle given the new trend of backward compatibility.
I wish they'd port Demon's Souls.... except I'm terrible at Souls games so probably wouldn't be able to beat it hahaha
@@Swallowfire Ha ha.. Yeah, Demon's Souls would be a fantastic port.
The trick to Souls games is the same as any RPG: grind to pump up your stats! If you go in green you'll get destroyed, thus needing super-high skill to avoid being one-hit. But if you have good stats/weapons/whatever, you can do more damage, stagger the enemies more, take more damage, and heal more readily.
I beat most Bloodborne bosses on my first go. And I'm not bragging -- I'm not that good a player. But if you grind a bunch, not only do you get a feel for the game, your odds of success improve dramatically as the bosses are easier, you're more resilient to damage, and you've found/collected more resources.
Great video Alex! I was not aware of the different ways one could play console games on different types of drive, since I'm a PC gamer I just took it for granted.
I only really noticed the difference when I got my Steam Deck and half the games wouldn't work properly on the SD card haha, playing on PC for years spoiled me on storage speed.
oh, one thing to note about the MicroSD, that has no caching hardware at all, so all reads are unbuffered. Even that Sata spinny drive would have the benefit cache built into the drive itself.
Yes, if you watch the five way comparison, the hard drive actually pulls ahead of the USB flash drive, I expect that's the small cache on the flash drive filling up.
It's nice to play on a well ported PC game for once. It just feel like it almost never happens.
RAM does affect FPS, try 16gb 4k with RT max, you will see
I would say that even the PCIe SSD the transitions aren't as seamless as they were on the PS5. I wouldn't expect Direct Storage to be as seamless as PS5's version of it since it's made specifically for the hardware.
Tldr, game works on great on everything except USB drives and SD cards. SSD's have smooth rift transitions where as HDD takes 4-5 seconds to load. FPS is unaffected by storage.
And because this is a port of a PS5 game, it can never be as optimised as making it for PC ground up.
Of course they didn't lie, the PS5 has data streaming tech lifting the load off the gpu alongside the ssd that the game was built around 2 or more years ago. The game runs objectively worse off an hdd at key points in the game where data streaming is most needed introducing stuttering and flat out delays points. It would have run poorly on either a PS4 or PS4 Pro. And the PC spec demands are also respectable for a PS5 equivalent performance.
So just a couple of seconds "delay".....or "level loading" when jumping between rifts, when using a basic hdd.
I think MOST people with hdd's will have no issues with that....as the rest of the game seems to be running butter smooth.
Storage memory only saves files and "reads" them to the RAM memory.
even an extra sec of delay breaks the immersion or potentially turns the rift mechanic into pure annoyance, it's very understandable why Insomniac was insistent of having a fast storage.
qAbout the speedruns, i think they will use what is called a loadless category
Gdeflate and Directstorage 1.2 gpu decompression is exciting for game sizes and loading times in the future.This game is only around 38GB. Maybe other games can have creative cutscenes like in Rift Apart without the worry of taking ages to load the next location
The actual game is 35gb with only one language. So if it has like 4 levels (assuming all is in memory at once for current level) that is 8gb or 16gb with the rift thing at most that is possible. I know actual rendering and such leads to more ram usage but if you just had more memory (which is cheap as dirt now) you could just have them in memory without super fast storage.
My test system has 32GB of DDR5 and of course the A750 has 8GB of VRAM. I'll test it later on my edit PC with 64GB of DDR4 and a 16GB RTX 4080. The PS5 is limited to a shared pool of 16GB of GDDR6, so it's not easy to compare with PC memory directly.
@@Swallowfire Meant more so theoretically i dont know how much game can just leave loaded in memory. Given talk they had im guessing it cant just load a ton and leave it in memory.
35 gb of what??
The entire ratchet and clank rift apart game
If it is
I'm relieved
@@muresanandrei7565 This is due to bugs... Which iirc a few were fixed day one
PlayStation 5 SSD AND I/O architecture. Some fanboys think it's just a fast SSD. And no, Insomniac/Sony did not lie when they said that Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart would not run as intended on a PS4.
Why do you need the "upscaling" if the game already runs at high FPS in 4K?
I wish Nixxes did the port for the last of us though. Sure the state of the game is way better now but a few lingering unoptimized mess still remains like high cpu usage and weird graphical textures after a shader precache. Anyways, I am glad Ratchet and Clank doesn't need a fast NVME for the smooth level transitions. SATA SSDs are still good enough!
Yes, I love the first last of us. According to a friend is mostly works now, but I wish it was this polished day 1.
Same here. I still enjoyed the game overall, but If only Iron Galaxy didn't half-ass it
Wonder if a 3.2 flash drive would make any difference?
Cosmic Red is the best color
Playstation 5 DOES NOT HAVE direct storage. That's an xbox technology, that microsoft recently implemented on windows too.
ssd "almost fast enough to act as memory". Seriously this one of biggest misconceptions so many people falsely have.. The performance is not even close to memory,. The SSD is never actually used as RAM... but rather it allows data to be swapped in and out of memory way faster, increasing the efficiency of the actual available memory.. that's the benefit.
Well you can kind of say that increasing the effiencency of memory is basically like increasing it, therefore, acting as a memory increase since it gives the same result.
Mostly right.
depends on what memory you try to compare to, the PS5 storage I/O decomp tops out at effective 20+GB/s thats just as fast as a PS3 VRAM or the Switch RAM. For the purpose of loading a game and streaming assets thats just overkill.
It's a bit differ for PS5 and the entire I/O bc the SSD is soldered on the board
Saying this as an Xbox guy, the PS5 SSD does have it's quirks beyond just being "Ultra fast"
@@ClapperDan being soldered had little to do with the performance however. The performance comes from the dedicated hardware decompression, the game being stored in compressed state and the direct access to GPU. So despite an M2 drive only doing 6 GB/s raw bandwidth, the stream is decompressed to 10-20GB/s depending on how the game data is compressed. Then they go straight to the GPU. On the PC DirectStorage 1.2/RTXIO it still needs to stage on system RAM before getting passed to VRAM, presumably due to how Windows handles data.
They did
Rachet and Clank Rift Apart started development on PS4 they even have fully working PS4 version but it wasn't released to Boost Sales on PS5 and do a little Propaganda about the PS5 SSD now the game is on PC and it works perfectly on normal HDD not to say there won't be game that need fast SSD but this one Dosn't need it plus game engines don't take advantage of SSD speeds still i think only Unreal Engine 5 and later can actually take advantage of SSD speeds
@@BLUE-PHOENIX89he doesn't even use punctuation.
Pc hard drives can take advantage of direct storage. Pc platform also has 10x more ram, vram, and cpu power/ capacity.
for a console spec is understandable to want it on a ssd
Yes, the PS5 SSD is far more powerful than the PC average. Yes, the PS5 has a HW decompressor and the PC then subsequently needs a more powerful CPU or GPU or both for the same works and literally decimates your PCi lines.
Yes, Ratchet only lightly taxes the PS5 as a whole /SSD goes to half throttle/ and the PC immediately has huge problems.
Nope. Neither SONY nor M. Cerny lied.
If you use a faster CPU i think as long as the drive is NVME the CPU is mostly going to be defining how quick you progress through these portals.
A lot of speedruns remove load times from the final time
Can't the game just preload everything if you have enough RAM/VRAM?
I’m running max setting just fine getting great fps. I’m on a 3070 and just a good ole Samsung ssd I wanna say a 560 or something….
I get same level stutters on the 4090, 12900k with 980pro m.2 and 32gb ram
they should have said there would be portal loading time without the PS SSD. saying its not possible without it is strait up lying. Sony fantards ate it all up saying rachet is not possible on Xbox or pc.... but now they say, "Well acccssshhhually Sony was talking about the ps4" 🤣🤣🤣
Can you test a RAID configuration for NVMe's? Apparently Directstorage doesn't work for RAID configurations.
Yes, they lied. It's that simple.
I actually got a game breaking error while playing ratchet and clank. After jumping through the dimension i stopped from free falling mid air just like in the video after that part i was glitched out of the game i tried to restart from the check point which i thought it would work but there is good news and bad news, the good news is i got out of the free fall glitch and spawned on the pirate ship but it gets worse from here all i could do was just move around and use clanks helicoptor thingy and other than that i couldnt use my wrench or i could use weapons when i tried to restart from checkpoint it fricking brought me in the same situation.i feel like i cant game on my gtx 1650 anymore cuz this game is really glitchy and too much for my gpu i probably need an upgrade if its the problem from my gpu side.
I'm glad you put the full context from Insomniac in your conclusion but why didn't you include the entire statement from the interview at the beginning of the video. When you hear the full quote, it is very clear they are saying this wouldn't have been possible on the PS4. This whole discussion of Insomniac lying is fanboys taking a statement out of context.
These days even mATX motherboards have place for 3 nvme m.2 sticks. And roughly 2 months ago prices of those fell through the floor. Basically got halved by now.
Just get another 2..4GB m.2 and reduce the cable mess. Single HDD slows down your system and adds completely unnecessary noise. Every time it wakes up or works. It's 2023.
Good looking game, nice review.
Exactly , I dont understand people still using HDD in 2023
Not sure why so many people tried to "gotcha" insomniac. Bunch of haters for no reason
The fact this game can run on the steam deck is beyond me
8gb of ddr4 and an HDD took 1min+ for the first portal to open. Now I know why the PS4 (8GB GDDR5 only) never got the game
interesting. i wonfer how id fare on shitty sata drives. i have a sandisk ssd+ and its basically hard drive speed random reads, but can have intitial higher spikes, prolly whatever cache it has
Digital foundry did a video on it it’s playable but it wouldn’t be enjoyable
Now I can buy the game
anything Tim Sweeney says should just be discarded, his opinion is worthless
Is there a difference between an almost full and an empty nvme drive?
That's a really good question. I would assume no since an almost full NVMe drive is still going to be faster than SATA and SATA was fine.
@@Swallowfire I'm asking as I'm using a pretty good nvme, a 4080 and I still get stuttering in the rift transitions.
I was wondering what would the PS5 have to make it so smooth.
I feel like I'm so close to fixing it and I heard somewhere that an nvme with less data inside would perform better.
Idk.....
The port was exceptional! Considering running ANY of the ratchet games emulated is nearly impossible on any rig that isnt 2000$+ They did a great job. Loading takes an extra second, but works perfectly otherwise!
I really hope Sony ports the older R&C and Uncharted games to PC. It feels wrong only having the last few games on Steam, ya know?
@@Swallowfire I hope so too, but at that, im still happy to be living at the time to see ps games come to pc, R&C on playstation got me into gaming, and now i can play it on my choice of rig.
@@taylorhawthorne5998Have you tried async audio? It really gives a boost
I ran it on a USB 2 drive and surprisingly runs ok. The pc is a 11th gen i7,rtx 3080, 32 GB.
Idk about the ps4 comparison. At the time I didn't feel like that plus the ps4 prossesor is kind of a potato. Doesnt support out of order operation so the gpu had to work as an accellorator and graphics processor
It's your CPU and 32gb of RAM doing heavy lifting. But if you don't have a strong CPU or ram to fall back on, that's when the HDD completely breaks. PS4 doesn't have the CPU, the amount of ram, the bandwidth nor the SSD to compensate to make the game possible
@@MrInuhanyou123 I have a bunch of memory but its not enough to store the whole game. Besides that it's not really that much higher than a console. 3 year old processor with the same 8 core 16 threads and 2 and a half year old gpu with 10 gigs of vram
@@MrInuhanyou123 it was never ps4 anything until this game came out on pc
Hdd runing like shit
Guys overall Pc port looks great but not whole. Watch digital foundary analysis and excaclty 48:00 minute moment😅
No game lauches perfect on 1st day.
I'm using micro sd only froze for like 1 min for me not bad
nvme gen 4 vs gen 3 would be interesting
pcie 4.0 ssd is somewhat has negligible difference with 3.0... on a video game that is.
I don't see any benefit of buying pcie 4.0 ssd as it is still quite expensive, you can see Digital Foundry's take on this, and the difference on other games (regarding loading time) is only 1-4 sec difference...
4.0 ssd will only benefit in large files that is used for editing purpose.
The SATA SSD is already way slower than an NVME gen 3 SSD, and the difference between NVME vs SATA is already non-perceptible. You wouldn't see any difference between Gen3 and Gen4.
@@Redstarka22 yeah, but I suggest anyone to have NVME M.2 instead of SATA (that is if the mobo support)... nowadays the price difference is not that significant, and you always get at least 2x the read/write speed on NVME M.2.
@@nickochioneantony9288 Absolutely, the price difference is not that great now, but there are still some use cases for SATA SSDs.
My case is a bit of an outlier, but I rely a lot on fast data streaming with 3D rendering on a workstation. The limiting factor for me is the number of PCI-E lanes. I run a Quadro with Xeon CPU, which already means that 16 out of the 20 lanes are taken up by the GPU, leaving me with just 4 for the NVME drive, which most Gen4 drives do actually use. I could buy a huge NVME SSD, but I can't really trust them due to the fact that they can't be used in RAID1 due to the lack of lane's, let alone RAID5 or RAID6. So what I ended up doing with my work station is running 4 8TB SATA SSDs in RAID5, to reduce the possibility of data loss, and then I have a 4TB NVME SSD for the system, software, and any active projects I'm working on, with archived material and inactive projects on my SATA SSDs so I can move them to the PCI-E drive if I need them again.
To my knowledge, newer Xeons have increased the amount of PCI-E lanes massively, so there is hope for the future at least. Shame they cost more than a car lol
So no they didn't lie
Thanks for satiating my technical curiosity!
great comparison,nice to see!
basically my Ps4 could still perform this game on low settings
Ps4 probably take off for launch
thats a great video. keep it up
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I love this channel
any amd gpu user here?? i am using rx6600 and on high setting the game looks ass
Naw they lied. It was possible. It was marketing and people got played. It is what it is.
You watched the video? Can’t accept the fact huh, even NX gamer says no
@@deltavictorbravo-7428 as I stated it is what it is but hay suck the toes and bow down don’t hold company’s accountable just bend down on your knees and enjoy them nice savory lies
No way its SATA HDD is so slow, its should be faster.
It's just badly optimized. There's another video here on UA-cam that actually shows the read speeds during the same rift section. The game does not actually begin streaming the assets over to the VRAM until just about the last possible moment. Jon Burton of Coding Secrets made a video about how this is mostly just lazy coding, and it would entirely be possible to stream the same assets into two different buffers, one active instance with all assets loaded, and one passive instance with the assets being loaded while the gameplay is happening in the other instance. Then once the passive buffer becomes the active buffer, you just flush the other one and that becomes the passive buffer, and you alternate until the section is done.
They said it wasn't possible. It was a lie.
what exactly was the lie?
@@gangstagummybear3432 Rift Apart rift jumping segments only being possible on the PS5's SSD
@@gangstagummybear3432Digital foundry also tried playing it on a PS4 hard drive but the entire game, crashes. Funny considering, as you can see here, the game is even working on an MICRO SD CARD!!!
@@_MegaMind_ So you are saying "sony lied" even though they are the ones that made the game possible on other platforms? Lol, if Sony didnt buy nixxes, there wouldnt be any talks about "sony lied" claiming they "lied" right now would be like me saying, "only i can open this soda bottle top" then I loosen the bottle top, then someone else opens it now that I loosened it, then everyone will claim, "you lied about you only being able to open the bottle" that is essentially what you people are saying. I'm sure I could fly, IF someone gave me a jetpack; lol.
@@gangstagummybear3432 🤨
I'm sorry but, ur point? Ur analogies aren't adding up to the topic at hand.
The game, as you can see here, can run on a micro SD card at all. So forget direct storage and forget whether or not it can run on an HDD, the fact that it can run on an micro SD card AT ALL proves that what they said is a lie. Can't even use direct storage as an excuse either, because direct storage isn't giving a micro SD card HDD levels of performance and it's not giving an HDD SSD levels of performance to get this game to run.
Steamdeck uses a pcie ssd though
The base model doesn't.
only the 256 and 512 GB versions if I remember correctly
Did Sony lie?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yeeeeeees.
Or perhaps the more relevant question is: are Nixxes wizards?
@@NimbusTLD We don't use the N word here.
Try running a HDD without direct storage 1.2 on a cpu made when that comment was made. It's never that simple.
@@MegaHitman187 Insomniac actually did walk back the claim about a year ago saying that if they had designed the game differently it wouldn't have been impossible on an HDD. So I guess Nixxies found the tweaks needed.
6:47
Your conclusion is not genuine. They were comparing PS5 at the time of launch to everything available to consumer at the time.. pc and consoles.
Everything tested here was available then
The ps5 didn't launch that long ago.
Edit: In case anyone doesn't understand context, we're talking storage devices here.
@@CorrosiveCitrus without making this a back and forth. I'll simply say, you are objectively incorrect in your statement.. arc just released last year.
@@ktrotter I hope this irony was an intentional troll or attempt at humour and you're not just outing yourself as a hypocrite 😂
PCIe gens make a HUGE difference in the game incase you haven't heard I think this is literally one of the only games that benefits from a PCIe Gen 4 mobo and GPU.