That was really fun. Excellent work! I really appreciate that you show everything, including parts that don't work out as planned. And your sense of humor is fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to record and share.
Glad you liked the video! I really believe in showing when things don't go as they should as well, it's a great way to learn. I've learned a lot from the people around here on youtube, so I believe in giving back! Don't know about the humor though, haha!
if you flip current to DC for a few seconds after etching (assuming you etched on AC) the etch will stain a light black color and won't come off as the stain goes a few thou into the surface. keep your eyes on ebay and CL for a 'marking methods' etching unit, i lucked out and found one locally and have been enjoying how easy it makes things. another pro tip, screen print emulsion on a regular screen print screen holds up to hundreds if not thousands of etchings. It's quite easy to burn small screens at home with a little practice. cheers and thanks for another awesome video!
I'm just doing what I've been taught through the years, a good person does good things, a great person shows the bad as well, and how to fix them. Cheers, glad you liked it! /Daniel
Great results! A note on electrolysis with salt: It doesn't take much salt to make water conductive enough to perform electrolysis, and, chlorine will only evolve if its concentration is very high. www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/dict/electrol.html
If you add a drop of liquid soap (dish detergent) to the salty water, it should break down the waters surface tension and allow it to properly wet the entire surface.
Aye, that works, although that wasn't the issue I was having. I should simply not have put in the piece parallell with the water surface, but rather perpendicular, then small air bubbles wouldn't have gotten trapped on the surface of the piece I was etching. The soap method works indeed well to break down the surface tension, and I have used it in the past as well. Just take care of how you introduce the piece to the water and it should be fine. Cheers! /Daniel
I have a LASER... and I had been using Thermark ($50 a can) but now... thanks to your video (I'm subscribed) I'll be doing this a LOT more. (And I'm sharing this with the ATX Hackerspace too. (Austin, TX)
I've tried out the Thermark spray and their tape, but with disappointing results. I never could get it to stick properly to the metal I was trying to mark. What I did find good success with was Sharpie markers though, and I found out completely by accident while trying to laser a pattern mask like in this video. Basically, what I did, and I will continue to experiment with, was painted Sharpie marker over a surface, in two layers (letting it dry between the layers) and then lasered on top of it. It didn't look like it took anything off, but when I cleaned off the metal with solvent the parts that I had lasered stayed put on the metal as a black mark. Interesting, and possibly quite useful, surprise. May make a video about that in the future once I've found out if it's working consistently or not. Cheers, thanks for the share! /Daniel
Switch & Lever Now that's interesting... in metalworking there is a layout dye, usually in blue or red... this should be the same (or very similar) substance as what is in the Sharpie. Your process may work with these as well... and if so... you have additional resources. I was going to say colors... then I remembered that Sharpie now makes like 12 or 16 different colors. Happy experimenting!
Hi Daniel ! I was hooked of this laser aided etching from the day you shared it, but I've not had the ability to do it ;-(( Now I have got myself a 3D printer and wat to add to it a laser head ! Do you have any idea of how many watts I need the laser to be for burning tape/paint as preparing for etching ?
Unfortunately not. If you’re just going to add a laser head to a 3D printer you’re going to add a diode laser, not a CO2 laser tube, which means you’re going to end up with a rather low wattage laser regardless how you do it, likely sub 5W. It may be enough to burn away the paint, I simply cannot say. Because it will do it much slower than a high powered laser there is a much greater chance for the tape burning and edges being unrefined, or paint melting with similar results.
I have just appreciated 4 of your videos, Well done and I like the dry humor. Out of curiosity if you already have a laser cutter why not use an engraving spray like CerMark or TherMark? I have used Cermark countless times and have only been let down once but I dared to dream too big the 1 time. I tried to laser etch a 30mm x 300mm x 300mm plate of aluminum and it was to large of a heat sink.
I really enjoyed the video. Like Don Cossitt mentioned, watch out for chlorine gas. I would suppose that etching in a well ventilated area would work or use a welding fume extractor. Would the etching process work with photo resist like used on printed circuit boards? Regards, Dave
Hey Dave! It should work, as long as it insulates from the salt water. I haven't tested it myself, but I've heard people who've done it quite successfully. And indeed, I added a warning in the description of the video to work in a well ventilated area. Thanks for catching that. There are also some concerns about which material you use, such as electroetching stainless steel releases chromium (if I remember correctly) into the water which you shouldn't just flush down the drain, it needs to be taken care of in other ways. Cheers! /Daniel
Hi ! I looks like a realy nice method for BOTH your demomstration but too for makin printed circuits when using a negative image - right ? Do you have a demo of the 3D-laser-jig ? It's a MUST HAVE tools, I think !
I'm unsure what you mean about the 3D laser jig. If you mean the laser cutter it's a fairly generic one, a LaserPro Mercury. It will likely be featured in coming videos as well, as I have some plans for some laser projects. This method should indeed be able to be used for making printed circuits as well, indeed. Although, I have done similar things in the past and using a glossy inkjet paper printed on a laser printer and heat transferring that to the circuit board also works really well, and may be faster than laser etching across a bigger board. Cheers! /Daniel
Switch & Lever As I understand it now, you can just paint the PCB-cobber plate with painting and then "burn" a negative image of the printed circuit board you want, etch it and you'r done - right ? The problem I had, was to get the image fastened to the cobber plate - your method is so simple to implement ! Please, let's see some demos, prices of the laser cutter ect, ect !
Keld Sørensen not quite. It's special "paint". You spray it on, then set the overhead negative picture on it. You want to use those clear plastic sheets. You put it on the pcb, expose to uv light, then wash away the paint that was not exposed. Then it goes into an acid bath.
Keld Sørensen I do believe it would work, though I haven't tried it. It's worth a try, or doing more traditionally as Aaron mentions below, with proper photo resist and an acid bath. I can't see why using a generic non-waterbased spraypaint and laser etching it away and then doing electroetching would work differently than the photo resist and acid method though. The end results should be fairly similar if done correctly.
Aaron Kimmins Aye, that would be interesting. Unfortunately I don't have any acids to play around with, so unless someone else is up for it I'm not going to be able at the moment.
Hi Fred! Nope, it's 1.960 amps (think that's the max for my power supply) and fluctuating between 10-20 volts. Though, you could do this process with a 9 volt battery as well, it will just take a bit longer. Glad you liked the video!
The laser cutter unfortunately doesn't belong to me. I'm currently enrolled in a masters education in interaction design and the laser cutter belongs to school. However, there are quite a few good laser cutters on the market for not that much money. I can thoroughly recommend the Epilog brand of lasers, if you don't need a big one you can look at their smaller format Zing line of laser cutters.
Just want to clarify the electrical values...is that 1960 amps or just under 2 amps (i.e. 1960 milliamperes))? 1960 amps at 10 to 20 volts seems very high....you can weld 2cm steel with far less power than that, and I'd have expected much heavier wires to carry it. That's something over 19kw. The differing use of commas and periods in numbers may be causing confusion here, so just wanting to get it clarified before someone fries themselves. I loved the video though, and want to try the technique. I have a laser printer, so the print reversed and iron on masking will be my method. I'd love a laser engraver, but don't have the thousands of dollars to spend. -- Mike
No, for sure, just less than 2 amps. I wouldn't expect a small desktop power supply to be able to come anywhere close to generating 2000 amps, and if it did I'd likely be soiling myself. That amount of current is terrifying! Cheers! /Daniel
+kooky flukes you have the right idea, but doing it slowly is counter intuitive. To get sufficient depth for branding you need to remove a fair amount of material. When you go that deep it will start to etch not straight into the material, but also into the walls that are being etched, which means the etching will undercut the resist you put on, obliterating any finer detail you put in. For this reason a faster etching is preferred. There are better methods of making branding irons though, like 3D printing (I have a video on that) or CNC milling.
Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. Curious, why did you laser the piece horizontally with the tape but then went vertical with the paint method?
Hello tinylogic! The reason was because I went with even thinner graduation lines with the paint, and after a quick test noticed that the lines etched away more consistently when done vertically rather than horizontally. I don't know if this is true for all laser cutters, or just a quirk with this one. Glad you liked the video! /Daniel
Switch & Lever I believe you can tune the laser's engraving direction and sequence in the Epilog driver, though I haven't tried it myself. In my experience with engraving coated metals there is definitely a difference between lines that get engraved along the "grain" of the laser's movement and those that are engraved across. The latter being rougher. These differences are a lot more apparent when engraving into a coated piece of metal, as opposed to a deeper engraving in soft materials where the small inconsistencies are difficult to spot. You can often also see a noticable difference in engraving quality for such projects if one area of the part has a lot of detail, while another is fairly clear. Or on the first area to be engraved. To avoid this it might be worth doing some tests while tweaking the resolution, speed and power settings. Then again, for most projects, it isn't a make or break deal. Still, one more thing to keep in mind when working with the laser :) Another great video, I hope to try this at some point. :)
kimaboe You're probably right, however I do not use an Epilog laser cutter, so whether that's possible or not bears little impact. Glad you like the video! /Daniel
Switch & Lever Well, if the project is small, orienting the item to be engraved according to the laser's preferred direction is as good a way to solve the problem as any. :) I came across this problem when engraving a 10mm by 10mm grid on a project that was too large to turn on the bed. I ended up engraving the y-axis lines again to ensure the coating was fully removed.
Hello, xcelent video xcelent demo, one question how long did you actually etch the metal ?? and what other metal besides still can be used with this method?? like lets say brass, it is used with chemical etching to produce very small parts for his scale model hobby but is a bit expensive to buy the etched parts and hard to get. THis method combined with a laser and a CNC that I owne would be a better choice just need to know what etching time and voltages work best thanks
It should work fine with brass as well, though be aware of disposing the water afterwards in a safe manner as copper should not be flushed down the drain. You can, however, boil off the liquid and throw it away in the garbage for all I know. In terms of etching time and volt/amps, that you have to try and experiment with, there are many parameters which matter like the ones you mentioned, as well as salinity concentration, size of piece to be etched, size of anode, and the composition of the metal itself. Cheers! /Daniel
+Switch & Lever Actually... let me clarify... I have an Epilog CO2 laser... it puts out light in the 10.6 micron range... at 35 watts... I could put aluminum foil in there for an hour and it wouldn't do much at all to it. However... if I had a Fibermark Nd YAG LASER... 1.064 micron typical wavelength... it can etch stainless steel, and possibly punch holes in foil. (About 10x higher frequency.) It's not just the power... the frequency also has a great deal to do with it.
Beauty but not many people have a laser cutter like that. Maybe you can use the same method as when you etch your own circuit boards for electronics. Then you can print the pattern with an ordinary laser printer.
I do not know, some preliminary research shows that you can indeed use baking soda when doing electrolysis, so I can't see why you couldn't in this application. However, when in doubt, test it out and see how it works. Cheers!
That was really fun. Excellent work! I really appreciate that you show everything, including parts that don't work out as planned. And your sense of humor is fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to record and share.
Glad you liked the video! I really believe in showing when things don't go as they should as well, it's a great way to learn. I've learned a lot from the people around here on youtube, so I believe in giving back!
Don't know about the humor though, haha!
Hey Daniel,
I like the salt solution etching. Very good demonstration. Better practice up as I have a challenge for you soon.
Cheers,
Tom
Whoohoo! Challenges! Glad you liked the demo.
Thanks!
/Daniel
if you flip current to DC for a few seconds after etching (assuming you etched on AC) the etch will stain a light black color and won't come off as the stain goes a few thou into the surface. keep your eyes on ebay and CL for a 'marking methods' etching unit, i lucked out and found one locally and have been enjoying how easy it makes things. another pro tip, screen print emulsion on a regular screen print screen holds up to hundreds if not thousands of etchings. It's quite easy to burn small screens at home with a little practice.
cheers and thanks for another awesome video!
For best etching, it should be done at a low voltage (Not high) for a longer period. Etching will be clearer and deeper
Very interesting process. Well done video, informative and well presented. Thanks for sharing this one.
Glad you liked it!
Cheers!
/Daniel
Hi Daniel,
Great video and instruction, showing the issues on the first part was a great teaching method...
Enjoyed
Chuck
I'm just doing what I've been taught through the years, a good person does good things, a great person shows the bad as well, and how to fix them.
Cheers, glad you liked it!
/Daniel
Great results!
A note on electrolysis with salt: It doesn't take much salt to make water conductive enough to perform electrolysis, and, chlorine will only evolve if its concentration is very high.
www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/dict/electrol.html
This just gave me a great idea for my next video. Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting process.
Regards,
Bob
If you add a drop of liquid soap (dish detergent) to the salty water, it should break down the waters surface tension and allow it to properly wet the entire surface.
Aye, that works, although that wasn't the issue I was having. I should simply not have put in the piece parallell with the water surface, but rather perpendicular, then small air bubbles wouldn't have gotten trapped on the surface of the piece I was etching. The soap method works indeed well to break down the surface tension, and I have used it in the past as well. Just take care of how you introduce the piece to the water and it should be fine.
Cheers!
/Daniel
Switch & Lever
Ok.
I have a LASER... and I had been using Thermark ($50 a can) but now... thanks to your video (I'm subscribed) I'll be doing this a LOT more. (And I'm sharing this with the ATX Hackerspace too. (Austin, TX)
I've tried out the Thermark spray and their tape, but with disappointing results. I never could get it to stick properly to the metal I was trying to mark. What I did find good success with was Sharpie markers though, and I found out completely by accident while trying to laser a pattern mask like in this video.
Basically, what I did, and I will continue to experiment with, was painted Sharpie marker over a surface, in two layers (letting it dry between the layers) and then lasered on top of it. It didn't look like it took anything off, but when I cleaned off the metal with solvent the parts that I had lasered stayed put on the metal as a black mark. Interesting, and possibly quite useful, surprise.
May make a video about that in the future once I've found out if it's working consistently or not.
Cheers, thanks for the share!
/Daniel
Switch & Lever
Now that's interesting... in metalworking there is a layout dye, usually in blue or red... this should be the same (or very similar) substance as what is in the Sharpie. Your process may work with these as well... and if so... you have additional resources. I was going to say colors... then I remembered that Sharpie now makes like 12 or 16 different colors. Happy experimenting!
+Switch & Lever try to use thermal grease for CPUs works great with 40W CO2 laser and stailness steel
Would this method work with other metals, like copper or brass?
Very cool, did you rub paint into the etchings for more contrast?
Hi Daniel !
I was hooked of this laser aided etching from the day you shared it, but I've not had the ability to do it ;-((
Now I have got myself a 3D printer and wat to add to it a laser head !
Do you have any idea of how many watts I need the laser to be for burning tape/paint as preparing for etching ?
Unfortunately not. If you’re just going to add a laser head to a 3D printer you’re going to add a diode laser, not a CO2 laser tube, which means you’re going to end up with a rather low wattage laser regardless how you do it, likely sub 5W. It may be enough to burn away the paint, I simply cannot say. Because it will do it much slower than a high powered laser there is a much greater chance for the tape burning and edges being unrefined, or paint melting with similar results.
Nice job!
Quite interesting, thanks for posting.
Soon to be released to a machinist store near you, Switch and Lever gauges. Look out Starrett and Brown and Sharp.
I would like to see if it's possible to then paint the etched markings for visibility.
I have just appreciated 4 of your videos, Well done and I like the dry humor.
Out of curiosity if you already have a laser cutter why not use an engraving spray like CerMark or TherMark? I have used Cermark countless times and have only been let down once but I dared to dream too big the 1 time. I tried to laser etch a 30mm x 300mm x 300mm plate of aluminum and it was to large of a heat sink.
You can try some cheap motorcycle chain grease spray instead of cermark. Works well on stainless steel.
nighttraintolorca
That sounds like something I will try out tomorrow, thanks.
NICE IDEA
Bring those old tools on!
I really enjoyed the video. Like Don Cossitt mentioned, watch out for chlorine gas. I would suppose that etching in a well ventilated area would work or use a welding fume extractor. Would the etching process work with photo resist like used on printed circuit boards?
Regards,
Dave
Hey Dave! It should work, as long as it insulates from the salt water. I haven't tested it myself, but I've heard people who've done it quite successfully.
And indeed, I added a warning in the description of the video to work in a well ventilated area. Thanks for catching that. There are also some concerns about which material you use, such as electroetching stainless steel releases chromium (if I remember correctly) into the water which you shouldn't just flush down the drain, it needs to be taken care of in other ways.
Cheers!
/Daniel
Hi !
I looks like a realy nice method for BOTH your demomstration but too for makin printed circuits when using a negative image - right ?
Do you have a demo of the 3D-laser-jig ?
It's a MUST HAVE tools, I think !
I'm unsure what you mean about the 3D laser jig. If you mean the laser cutter it's a fairly generic one, a LaserPro Mercury. It will likely be featured in coming videos as well, as I have some plans for some laser projects.
This method should indeed be able to be used for making printed circuits as well, indeed. Although, I have done similar things in the past and using a glossy inkjet paper printed on a laser printer and heat transferring that to the circuit board also works really well, and may be faster than laser etching across a bigger board.
Cheers!
/Daniel
Switch & Lever As I understand it now, you can just paint the PCB-cobber plate with painting and then "burn" a negative image of the printed circuit board you want, etch it and you'r done - right ?
The problem I had, was to get the image fastened to the cobber plate - your method is so simple to implement !
Please, let's see some demos, prices of the laser cutter ect, ect !
Keld Sørensen not quite. It's special "paint". You spray it on, then set the overhead negative picture on it. You want to use those clear plastic sheets. You put it on the pcb, expose to uv light, then wash away the paint that was not exposed. Then it goes into an acid bath.
Keld Sørensen I do believe it would work, though I haven't tried it. It's worth a try, or doing more traditionally as Aaron mentions below, with proper photo resist and an acid bath. I can't see why using a generic non-waterbased spraypaint and laser etching it away and then doing electroetching would work differently than the photo resist and acid method though. The end results should be fairly similar if done correctly.
Aaron Kimmins Aye, that would be interesting. Unfortunately I don't have any acids to play around with, so unless someone else is up for it I'm not going to be able at the moment.
Is there a certain brand/model of power supply that you'd recommend?
Thanks 😊
Very informative. Was that 1960 volts at 1 amp? I could not read the scale on the meter. Thank you- Fred
Hi Fred! Nope, it's 1.960 amps (think that's the max for my power supply) and fluctuating between 10-20 volts. Though, you could do this process with a 9 volt battery as well, it will just take a bit longer.
Glad you liked the video!
Many thanks! I am going to do some experimenting myself. Thanks for the lead...
Fred
THANK YOU for this video. Just one question, where did you get your laser? That is one item I don't own.
The laser cutter unfortunately doesn't belong to me. I'm currently enrolled in a masters education in interaction design and the laser cutter belongs to school.
However, there are quite a few good laser cutters on the market for not that much money. I can thoroughly recommend the Epilog brand of lasers, if you don't need a big one you can look at their smaller format Zing line of laser cutters.
What laser cutter are you using?
Just want to clarify the electrical values...is that 1960 amps or just under 2 amps (i.e. 1960 milliamperes))? 1960 amps at 10 to 20 volts seems very high....you can weld 2cm steel with far less power than that, and I'd have expected much heavier wires to carry it. That's something over 19kw.
The differing use of commas and periods in numbers may be causing confusion here, so just wanting to get it clarified before someone fries themselves.
I loved the video though, and want to try the technique. I have a laser printer, so the print reversed and iron on masking will be my method. I'd love a laser engraver, but don't have the thousands of dollars to spend.
-- Mike
No, for sure, just less than 2 amps. I wouldn't expect a small desktop power supply to be able to come anywhere close to generating 2000 amps, and if it did I'd likely be soiling myself. That amount of current is terrifying!
Cheers!
/Daniel
I wonder if you could ( over a longer period and less voltage) etch metal away enough to make a stamp for touch marking wood.
+kooky flukes you have the right idea, but doing it slowly is counter intuitive. To get sufficient depth for branding you need to remove a fair amount of material. When you go that deep it will start to etch not straight into the material, but also into the walls that are being etched, which means the etching will undercut the resist you put on, obliterating any finer detail you put in. For this reason a faster etching is preferred. There are better methods of making branding irons though, like 3D printing (I have a video on that) or CNC milling.
Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. Curious, why did you laser the piece horizontally with the tape but then went vertical with the paint method?
Hello tinylogic! The reason was because I went with even thinner graduation lines with the paint, and after a quick test noticed that the lines etched away more consistently when done vertically rather than horizontally. I don't know if this is true for all laser cutters, or just a quirk with this one.
Glad you liked the video!
/Daniel
Switch & Lever I believe you can tune the laser's engraving direction and sequence in the Epilog driver, though I haven't tried it myself.
In my experience with engraving coated metals there is definitely a difference between lines that get engraved along the "grain" of the laser's movement and those that are engraved across. The latter being rougher.
These differences are a lot more apparent when engraving into a coated piece of metal, as opposed to a deeper engraving in soft materials where the small inconsistencies are difficult to spot. You can often also see a noticable difference in engraving quality for such projects if one area of the part has a lot of detail, while another is fairly clear. Or on the first area to be engraved.
To avoid this it might be worth doing some tests while tweaking the resolution, speed and power settings. Then again, for most projects, it isn't a make or break deal. Still, one more thing to keep in mind when working with the laser :)
Another great video, I hope to try this at some point. :)
kimaboe You're probably right, however I do not use an Epilog laser cutter, so whether that's possible or not bears little impact.
Glad you like the video!
/Daniel
Switch & Lever Well, if the project is small, orienting the item to be engraved according to the laser's preferred direction is as good a way to solve the problem as any. :)
I came across this problem when engraving a 10mm by 10mm grid on a project that was too large to turn on the bed. I ended up engraving the y-axis lines again to ensure the coating was fully removed.
Hi will a 9 volt battery work ?
How do you make sure the parts are straight when you put them in the laser cutter?
I think he engraved a rectangle first on the base of the laser cutter, to place the piece of metal properly
Hello, xcelent video xcelent demo, one question how long did you actually etch the metal ?? and what other metal besides still can be used with this method?? like lets say brass, it is used with chemical etching to produce very small parts for his scale model hobby but is a bit expensive to buy the etched parts and hard to get. THis method combined with a laser and a CNC that I owne would be a better choice just need to know what etching time and voltages work best thanks
It should work fine with brass as well, though be aware of disposing the water afterwards in a safe manner as copper should not be flushed down the drain. You can, however, boil off the liquid and throw it away in the garbage for all I know.
In terms of etching time and volt/amps, that you have to try and experiment with, there are many parameters which matter like the ones you mentioned, as well as salinity concentration, size of piece to be etched, size of anode, and the composition of the metal itself.
Cheers!
/Daniel
thanks a million cheers
cool video, but can you not just burn your design into the ruler with the laser itself?
+Warren Buitendag If you have a powerful enough laser, absolutely.
thought so... :)
+Switch & Lever Actually... let me clarify... I have an Epilog CO2 laser... it puts out light in the 10.6 micron range... at 35 watts... I could put aluminum foil in there for an hour and it wouldn't do much at all to it. However... if I had a Fibermark Nd YAG LASER... 1.064 micron typical wavelength... it can etch stainless steel, and possibly punch holes in foil. (About 10x higher frequency.) It's not just the power... the frequency also has a great deal to do with it.
, UA-cam
Olá Daniel , você aceita encomendas? Enviaria para o Brasil ?
abraços !!!
Beauty but not many people have a laser cutter like that. Maybe you can use the same method as when you etch your own circuit boards for electronics. Then you can print the pattern with an ordinary laser printer.
do you have to use salt or can baking soda be used?
I do not know, some preliminary research shows that you can indeed use baking soda when doing electrolysis, so I can't see why you couldn't in this application. However, when in doubt, test it out and see how it works.
Cheers!
Switch & Lever You can also use washing soda, (sodium carbonate) as a salt. as it's not sodium chloride it won't create chlorine gas.
Använd en bomullstuss mättad med saltvatten nästa gång så kan du flytta runt den och kolla djupet lättare nästa gång. :)
How do you make sure things are square on a laser cutter likie that?
You make a lot of dry runs looking where the laser is going, adjust accordingly until everything is square before running the final active pass.
är du svensk?
am I the only one who believes that you have mixed up anode and cathode?
Hi will a 9 volt battery work ?
It will, but the process will take longer.