How to Convince a Christian that Lord of the Rings Isn’t Full of Forbidden Witchcraft
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- Опубліковано 27 кві 2024
- Decades ago, when Dungeons and Dragons first got started, there were a fairly large number of Christians in the United States who thought it (and many other fantasy properties) were dangerous and anti-Biblical. That was always based mainly on a misunderstanding, and you’d think by now that would have been cleared up. I recently found out, though, that there are still people who think even Lord of the Rings is somehow religiously dangerous….
My video on the ways in which Lord of the Rings is fundamentally Christian is here: • Tolkien’s “Fundamental...
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It blows my mind that Christians sometimes have an aversion to LotR, since Tolkien was a devout Catholic and LotR is like....really wholesome imo. The moral current within the books is a huge part of what gives his works so much beauty
LOTR is fundamentally about how God uses the most humble of people to undermine and defeat evil.
More often than not, it's uninformed and even politically bent fundamentalist sorts or simply uninterested standard American Jesus types way back to the 80's as mentioned in the blurb that balk at anything remotely remote.
I'm guessing most of them have no idea about Tolkien and think LOTR was created in 2001 when the movies came out. They equate it with the likes of Harry Potter which came out around the same time.
Pentecostal Evangelicals consider Catholics satanic spawn.
I once was arguing with a Young Earth Creationist, Pentecostal Evangelical, he told me Christianism was true because it was the largest religion in the world, with 2 billion people.
I talked about Catholicism, he told me Catholics were not true Christians, they followed Satan.
I said, if you discount Catholics, Christianity is not the biggest religion in the world. Islam takes its place and by YOUR logic, the popularity of a religion makes it true.
He blocked me.
@@shaunsteele6926 maybe some people, but the LOTR hate by csrtain Christians predates the movies. It's similarly motivated to the hate some have/had for Dungeons and Dragons, which was also partially inspired by LOTR, funnily enough.
So many of the themes of the Lord of the Rings point towards Christian doctrine. I remember when I first watched the Peter Jackson films as a 13 yr old, seeing Bilbo argue with Gandalf over giving up the one ring "I'm not here to rob you... I'm trying to help you." That's Jesus offering to take our sins away. It's a powerful moment in the story and one that resonates with me in my walk with the Lord even to this day
Even it's metaphysics and moral philosophy are ultimately fundamentally Christian. I know the actual purpose was to use pagan European folklore to tell a mythology for Britain and the English speaking people and not trying to preach or proselytize his faith, but anyone trying to divorce his works from the very Christian mind that created it are either in denial or don't understand Christianity very well. His world doesn't even fully make sense apart from a Christian imagination. You can say that his legendarium is a sanctification of the pagan.
A fellow Catholic once asked me what my favourite book/author was and when I replied "Anything by Tolkien", they responded with "what a typical Catholic answer" haha
as a catholic i don't mind that stereotype😄. (especially compared toothers)
Mine are Tolkien and Dostoevsky, best of both
Gene Wolfe was another great Catholic author.
As a lifelong 68 year old Catholic who loves both Tolkien and Dostoyevsky, I have to say that all my reading life I’ve been told rather frequently, mostly by Protestant friends and acquaintances, that Tolkien is not Christian, or even anti-Christian, because he and his writings are Catholic. I have also frequently been told that I myself am not Christian because of my Catholicism. But these are weird classification issues. One of my oldest friends is a Mormon - he considers himself Christian and so do I. But he think that I’M not Christian because I’m Catholic. And a lot of Protestants AND Catholics think he’s not Christian because he’s a Mormon. And so on, All this who’s in / who’s out stuff just makes me laugh. People love to create divisions.
Dostoyevsky himself-my favorite non -fantasy writer-was a super conservative Russian Orthodox who was quite anti-Catholic. Well, everyone carries their own ignorances around like weights and we have to tolerate each other’s limitations.
I'm a non-Catholic Christian, and I second that sentiment. Tolkien is the GOAT. The Hobbit was one of my favorite books growing up.
For those who think all fantasy is anti Christian, I'd ask them to explain the high medieval Arthurian legends, especially the Quest for the Holy Grail.
I prefer Monty Python's version.🤣
Arthurian legend is Gnostic, not Christian.
Like LOTR, the Arthurian legend is a mix of pagan and monotheistic elements. “Arthur, seek the holly Gail”….”good idea oh Lord”… “OF COURSE IT’S A GOOD IDEA!!!”
@@estherhoward7959
It's ironic because I've seen Catholics call anything Christian that wasn't catholic "gnostic heresy".
As a Christian: I find the xenophobia and fear mongering of other Christian's and the damage it has caused to the overall faith to be a great and terrible sin.
All of mankind is loved by Christ, including those "lost sheep".
@@CaptainPieBeard Protestant Liberalism was a mistake dude. Because it brought it with it all the BS baggage with Liberalism, division and tribalist thought patterns. You can’t have a healthy disagreement anymore, because everything is layers of power and your side has to win. Too much Us vs Them
Melon Geek: Years ago, I had to write a lengthy defense of Tolkien to defend this Catholic author who was being attacked. This attacker was using a "Bible Christian" site to claim Tolkien's works were full of witchcraft, etc. ad nauseam. I had to make a point-by-point refutation using not only the legendarium, but also Tolkien's Letters and books written in those early days of the 1970s that illuminated Tolkien's Catholic underpinnings for his works. The main premise of these types of Christian arguments seems to be that if you're writing anything, it has to be dogmatic and strictly based on Scripture. This I refuted by demonstrating that fantasy, i.e., fairytales, have been used since ancient times to teach moral lessons. Nobody ever mistook fairytales for literal magic from the diabolical.
Tolkien did not let out his underlying purposes in writing till his stories made him famous. As you rightly said, he wanted to write a "rousing good story." But after a while, the interviewers got out of him the symbolic "types" he used, like lembas being a type of the Eucharist, and Galadriel being a type of the Blessed Virgin. Tolkien despised allegory such as Lewis' Narnia. But that didn't stop him from employing these literary types in order to convey a deeper theological meaning.
"In making a myth, in practicing 'mythopoeia,' and peopling the world with elves and dragons and goblins, a story-teller . is actually fulfilling God's purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light." [J.R.R. Tolkien, Quoted by Colin Gunton, Professor of Christian Doctrine in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at King's College, London. His article first appeared in the King's Theological Review (Vol. 12, No 1), in 1989. Included as a chapter in Tolkien: A Celebration, edited by Joseph Pearce (London: Fount, 1999), page 130]. The good professor is here explaining the work of a Catholic storyteller. In other words, it is the duty of the educated Catholic author to bring to bear his God-given talents in order to promote, in as far as his vocation allows, the universal truth.
There is much more that could be said. I commend you, dear Geek, for tackling this controversial topic. Namarie.
I once saw an even broader version of the "fantasy is bad" idea. When I was a kid, a lady in our church told my father that it bothered her that her daughter like reading fiction, simply because, well, fiction is "lies." My father (who was an elder in the church and is the one who introduced me to science fiction and fantasy) replied, "But you know the parables are fiction. It's not like there really was a prodigal son, or seven foolish maidens invited to a wedding party. Jesus used fiction." And she was candid enough to say, "Yes, I know. I just wish He hadn't."
That’s when you say, “I think that’s a YOU problem” 🤣
@@TolkienLorePodcast True enough. Though we are talking more than fifty years ago, now, and "that's a me/you problem" was not yet in popular discourse.
Everyone's a critic
It's horrifying how easily people blaspheme. Directly accusing Our Lord of sin...
@@Carolus_B - Please don't think that's what this lady was doing. She just felt very uncomfortable with the idea of fiction. I think that, in modern slang, she knew it was "a me problem," but it just remained a problem.
I’ll never forget a similar discussion amongst friends. One was saying how his son was reading Harry Potter and one of our friends piped in saying he didn’t allow his kids to read Harry Potter or other fantasy books like Lord of the Rings.
The dad whose son was reading Harry Potter asked the critic if he had read his kids the Chronicles of Narnia. He had, to which HP dad reminded him that Aslan, the Christ character, literally cites Deep Magic and Deeper Magic as the thing that brought him back to life.
Critic Dad thankfully lets his kids read LotR and Harry Potter now lol
Obviously Aslan means THE higher power, an allegory for God, not meaning "magic" as in Harry Potter magic.
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 "magic" ultimately comes from the stem that the words "make" "maker", "might" and ""machine" descent from, it means the power to create something. This can be interpreted differently in different literally works.
@@Chociewitka I'm not talking about the etymology. It's obvious what C.S. Lewis means since the entire series is an ALLEGORY.
@@spencerfrankclayton4348 But regardless of Narnia alone, in any work the word "magic" might mean something a little bit different.
Gandalf as a Wizard seems to be taken from the original Middle English conception of that term as "wise-man", or "one who judges rightly", rather than "old man with dark occultic powers".
Tolkien being a Philologist would have used Wizard to mean what the word would have meant literally linguistically.
So in this case Ard is a person, Tard, Drunkard, Bastard, Wizard.
So in the case of Drunkard like Wizard; Drunk (Inebriated) ard (Person)
So following that entomological structure a Wizard is Wiz (Wise) Ard(Person) and as seen and mostly commonly acting in the story; Gandalf personifies the Wizard as a wise man who offers council to those who need it; not as a powerful spell slinger as you would come to expect.
I always personally like to make a distinction between a Mage and a Wizard; because I’ve always considered Wizards more like Gandalf; whereas what we see in something like Harry Potter would be a Mage.
He also used the in universe word "Istari" meaning exactly that.
Those wise men practiced magic.
It was written by a devout Christian and is the most wholesome fiction ever written lol
Perfect example of how you can tell really cool stories with wholesome values and ideals.
As a Protestant who normally shies away from typical modern fantasy, I love LOTR. I even teach it as literature at a local Christian school because it so exemplifies the virtue and character I would like to see in students.
Still easier than trying with Dungeons and Dragons.
I feel that any religious person who is already coming to this with such a staunch, close-mindedness mentality is probably not someone who would likely end up enjoying LotR or HP even if he or she ended up giving it a chance, so what's the point in trying to convince them?
Maybe because some people are just echoing what they've heard and not give any real thought to the restriction. Sometimes if you give them more information, or differing info, they start to think. After all, questioning faith can lead to better understanding, questioning such restrictions can lead to more reading material to enjoy.
Because it's usually not them, but them laying heavy burdens they do not lift themselves, usually upon their children.
@@omegatired funny. As someone who does read this kind of stuff, I find people that are more guarded to be making a FAR more intelligent decision than you. Why? They’re actually thinking about what they put into their minds and how it might affect them. That’s why those restrictions exist in the first place. All you’re thinking about, based on your comment, is having fun, making you rhetorical PERFECT target for messaging you probably don’t even realize you’re getting hit with. I’d rather deal with someone that might be overly cautious and can help them understand where their line actually is and to better articulate it than someone who doesn’t understand the concept of a line in the first place.
@@John-fk2ky Good for you. Me, I like to explore, I like to stretch my mind ... do I believe all of what I read? No. But then I'm old enough I learned to analyze information in school. Therefore I question things, and just because you judge me to be easily influenced, doesn't mean I actually am. Rhetoric is just that, rhetoric, meant to sway, but when analyzed, one can find the deficits in the logic and ignore the message. As far as fantasy literature is concerned, it's entertainment, it's not real.I learned that about stories a long, long time ago. I am a story teller and fantasy is my chosen genre. But it's not real and it's not to indoctrinate people, it is just to entertain.
@@John-fk2kyconsidering how poorly thought out almost all of these opinions are, I have to strongly disagree with your claim that they are putting any great deal of thought, care, or consideration into anything of the sort. This quote is often musattributed to Aristotle, but the sentiment rings true nonetheless. "It is the mark of an educated mind to he able to consider an idea without accepting it." This is why learning and teaching critical thinking is important. I don't think any idea in amd of itself is inherently dangerous to be exposed to. What matters is what you do with it. Sheltering yourself from foreign ideas to which you either don't believe or aren't familiar with breeds cognitive, creative, and intellectual weakness. You can't even give a proper defense of what you actually know to be right and true of you have absolutely no idea or comprehension of that which is wrong and false. Stretching and expanding your intellectual horizons and exercising your mental muscles of critical thinking are integral to robust apologetics, let alone a healthy imagination.
It’s not hard. Just tell them Tolkien wrote it from a Catholic perspective. Tolkien openly admitted as much. You can see similarities for the one God, angels, Satan, demons, etc. He just incorporated a little Nordic mythology into it. The purpose of LOTR and all the other works of Tolkien was to briefly give the reader an escape from the real world into a fantasy world where things make sense and the line between good and evil is clearly drawn. It’s perfect for calming the chatter in your mind before bedtime. I believe his work was meant to be therapeutic for the mind. I know it has been for me.
I'm a Christian, and I approve this video. 😁
Is this a political commercial? 😂🤣😆
I’m not a Christian and I also approve of this video. One of Tolkien’s main themes is about very different people getting together to fight against unnatural mechanized technology (aka evil) to protect and heal the real natural magic of earth.
Tolkien was a Christian and lotr Is plenty of religious symobolism everywhere i dont under stand the point
I'm not a Christian and I approve of your comment.
@Epic_Kingdom
I just sub'd to your channel. I bought a 1000 pc. puzzle of Middle Earth and its all brown. This will be a serious challenge. Have you ever done a related puzzle ME? I bought it at B.A.M.
What has always been interesting to me is that both Christians and Pagans that I know feel a deep connection to these stories and see their faiths in them.
There's a good reason for that. Obviously his intent was to create a mythology for the English speaking peoples to replace that which was largely erased or diluted by the Norman comquest of Britain. He creatively drew from Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, and Norse mythological stories. It's essence is deeply and inteinsically rooted in old European identity and folk lore (which is why something like Rings of Power, even if it was good, was always going to be little more than generic fantasy Los Angeles). What a lot of pagans and non-Christians in general often don't realize is that the reasons why so many Christians intimately identify with it as well is because, on a deeper level, his stories are born out of a Christian mind and imagination. It's metaphysics, moral philosophy, and many of it's themes and symbolic patterns are fundamentally Christian and deliberately so. You could argue (as I've heard others do) that Tolkien's work was a Cbristian sanctification of the pagan. There's been a debate online lately about whether or not LOTR and the like are "Christian works." The pagans and a lot of non-Christians are emphatically asserting no and frankly making a bunch of strawman arguments about what people mean when they say that it is, but this attempt to divorce Tolkien's writings from his faith is eiiher born out of denial that something they love is heavily influenced by a worldview they disagree with or general ignorance and misunderstanding of Christianity. His work may not be allegorical (nor does something have to be in order to be identified as a "Christian work," contrary to what some say), but for example, nobody can seriously read the creation story of Arda at the hands of Eru and the Valar and the discord of Melkor and not see shades of inspiration from the biblical stories about creation and the fall.
@@Tyler_W Very good points.
Thank you for your time and thought in making this video. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts.... with basic english and not resorting to Tolkienese.
First, magic users in fiction either have an innate ability or step beyond their natural gifts. Tolkien gave each race certain capabilities. To non elves, the elven abilities are called magic... but to elves it is just what they do. The same is true for dwarves, et al. Gandalf is an angel.... therefore his abilities are angelic and will appear to be magic to the hobbits, et al. In Tolkien's expanded stories produced by his son, many humans actively pursue non-innate abilities... immortality, necromancy, witchcraft, telepathy.... these abilities are not natural to humans and are attempted by contracting with fallen angels. Therefore a person using a natural ability is good and natural according to it's kind. But a person using unnatural abilities due to help from demons is evil.
Second, Tolkien's theology of creation is dramatically described by his son. Tolkien's universe is completely and unalterably monotheistic. An uncreated creator gives all and sustains all. Almost every other fantasy setting (and every single D&D setting) I've come across is not creationist. Duality and pantheism are the two most dominant setting for literature. Other settings include animism, spiritism, the Force, collective intelligence, and every other theology/cosmology imaginable. After reading The Silmarillion, Tolkien's work is inescapably creationist.... though without reading Tolkien's son's works, it is possible to not know this.
Third, the Christology of The Lord of the Rings is unmistakable to me. While different views of the themes of the work are proposed... ecology, technology, fate, providence, morality, multiculturalism, friendship, power, temptation, sin, and more.... the three types of Christ see most obvious to me. These are the three main offices of ancient Israel that typefy the messiah... prophet, priest and king. The function of these reveal how God interacts with his people. The prophet brings the word of God... good or bad, harsh or kind... the prophet resolutely tells the people of God. He appears unexpectedly. He disappears quickly. Often, he does not have a home... he wanders... almost blown by the wind or the breath of God. Gandalf fulfills this aspect of the messiah. He always turns up and brings the news, good and bad. Either way, his purpose is to turn people's hearts towards hope. Gandalf rarely does magic, but he always instills a desire to do better... in the Shire, in Rivendell, in Rohan, in Gondor, at the Black Gate. People always have a change of heart or take a courageous stand when Gandalf shows up. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Gimli, Legolas, Merry, Pippin, and Denethor all make the most definitive choices of their lives after Gandalf shows up.
Next is the priest. A priest's job is to get the people into a correct relationship with God. He makes the sacrifices. He presents himself as the middle man. His work makes the people righteous before God. This is sometimes seen as the most important job of the messiah. The messiah makes himself the sacrifice. He brings the people into God's presence with his very death. In Tolkien's work, Frodo is the priest. He voluntarily goes to destroy the Ring. No one makes him do this. The destruction of the Ring will bring the people back into correct living. Frodo accepts that this will result in his own death. Now this analogy breaks down because Frodo does not die. But Tolkien cannot have Frodo's death be the atonement because Frodo is mortal. The messiah is God, therefore his death as a sacrifice lasts for eternity, while also being human means it applies to humans. Frodo, as a hobbit (human subspecies) and not divine, cannot die for anyone.... it is the destruction of the Ring, the symbol and the embodiment of temptation and evil, that brings healing.
The last of Tolkien's types of Christ is the king. The purpose of a king is to establish peace and justice for the people. Peace means safety from outside attack. Justice is the application of the law to all people.... regardless of their gender, ethnicity, age, and beliefs. This is the easiest of the types of the messiah to identify due to the last of the trilogy being titles The Return of the King. Aragorn is the king. After Gandalf has kindled the hearts of the free peoples and Frodo has destroyed the Ring, it is Aragorn's job to fill the power void and provide the structure for people to continue to courageously live. Peace and justice are the two ways to accomplish this. There are other clues for Aragorn as well... prophecy, the presumed dead (yet only hidden) royal lineage, and multiple physical signs of authority (an ancient ring, a broken sword, and a dead tree).
If people claim that The Lord of the Rings is anti-Christian, then they have not read it. To me the inescapable conclusion is that cultures and nations are at war within and without, yet the only hope is for a messiah to perform his three offices. Tolkien believed that people who seek God will respond to the prophet, will work with the priest, and will follow the king.
As a Christian, a very conservative Bible believing Christian I find that most people in my circle love Tolkien's writings.
An excellent presentation. Good work! xxx
Ironically, im an atheist, and i almost quit reading due to its rather religious themes. Good and evil, redemption, resurrection, and sinas well as a creator God and a fall are among the subtext. Personally it was too Christian for me. I realized i could just enjoy the story
Interesting video. I think if I knew anyone who needed this sort of convincing, I would very shortly not be associating with them anymore, but I enjoyed the video regardless. Thanks for all the quality content.
This video just popped up on my timeline, to my surprise, because I thought you’d taken a long break from UA-cam!
It appears I’ve missed months of content without knowing it. 😳
Anyway, glad you’ve returned!
LOTR is the greatest Christian novel ever written aside from the Bible. It is awash in biblical scripture.
I think the Tolkien Geek here hit on a chronic problem in my community (professing Bible-believing Protestants): terrible understanding of theory of literature, and specifically of genre analysis. It is always amazing to sit in Bible studies and hear the absolute worst manglings of Scripture take place from well-meaning people who jump to “iNtErPrEt ThE bIbLe LiTeRaLlY” without taking a second to try to ask themselves how the particular passage they want to discuss SHOULD be interpreted. A lot of the same interpretive issues there bleed over into these kinds of discussions and I am sorry you and your wife had to even discuss it.
Thank you for your explanation.
5:08 St. Thomas Aquinas is fairly clear, angels do have power over matter, not internal structure, that's God's domain, but movements and that would involve those that would light a fire.
The problem with this route is that this type of Evangelicals is usually not very open to St. Thomas Aquinas either. A Fundie who is, like Jonathan Sarfati, isn't likely to be this level of anti-Catholic or anti-Tolkien.
But let’s not pretend like St Thomas Aquinis is canonical. He was a wise man, but not inspired.
@@swyjix Since he is a canon-ised saint, he is authoritative.
Latter Day Saint(or "Mormon")here, and Lord of the Rings is my All-Time favorite fantasy!😁😁😁🥰
I’m a conservative Christian, and I approve this video.
Very interesting topic for a video.
I myself identify as an evangelical Christian, yet I have never come across any of the Christians that your wife encountered. To the contrary, everyone to whom I have talked about Tolkien always had positive things to say.
As a Catholic I have come across the aforementioned views quite a few times over the years.
@@abrax_7
I'm an Anglican, so we also have liturgical services. I think liturgical churches could be more strict about doing anything different or teaching anything in a different way. That said the Rector of my church is a big Tolkien fan.😅
@@Enerdhil Re-reading that I maybe could have worded it more clearly. I have often run into people of certain protestant denominations with very negative views on Tolkien's works (and sometimes Catholics in general) although I would not include Anglicans in that. LotR was required reading at my Catholic High School .
@@abrax_7
Another good reason to send your kids to Catholic school.😁👍
I've run into a few against LOTR. I'm an atheist but I grew up pentacostal. I haven't seen it to the degree that people whine about Harry Potter (which I hate for entirely different reasons chief of which Rowling being a bigot and how the book treats the slavery of house elves as a good thing) and about D&D.
Every time you post I'm glad you didn't give up on this channel. Thanks!
They think the book is religiously dangerous? When my family first moved into the Southern US, they told us that Catholicism was evil. Tolkien wouldn't stand a chance.
Ah.. Yes. Southern Baptist.🙄
But Catholicism is evil.
Let’s not start a religious war in the comments please.
@@TolkienLorePodcast interesting that you are censoring/deleting comments. You are keeping the truth from people.
@@estherhoward7959 Who made you the arbiter of truth?
Youre going all John Carswell on us today! Thats always a good thing.
Interesting topic. The thing about good fantasy and science fiction is that it provides a recognisable world with slightly different rules and assumptions that allow us to explore deep themes about human nature, existence, religion, philosophy etc. at a slight remove from day to day life. I think Tolkien understood this at a deep level when he talked about 'man' as sub creator.
20:06 The witch craze is not Medieval.
If you could take an i-phone to 1300 and to 1500, but you wanted to know which one was safer, 1300 is the bet.
Yeah the height of witchhuntjng is far more Early Modern than anything medieval.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 Plus, the beginning is Late Medieval.
I think there was a gruesome aftermath of sudden cold and bad harvest in which some resorted to cannibalism and witch craft in the 1310's and then the story stuck even after the crimes had ceased or sth.
_"Great Famine of 1315-1317: A famine and pestilence sweeps over Europe, and exacts so frightful a toll of human life that the phenomenon is to be regarded as one of the most impressive features of the period. It covers almost the whole of Northern Europe; the current territory of Ireland, England, France, Netherlands, Germany and Poland. The adverse weather conditions, the ensuing crop failures, and the sharp rise in food prices cause an acute shortage of food that will last for two years. The famine causes millions of deaths (according to estimates, around 10 to 25% of the urban population dies)."_
@@hglundahl Thats possible I guess, but generally the obsession with witchcraft is more of a post 1500 thing. I don’t think most clergy really took most accusations seriously before then, and I get the impression the level of actual hysteria has been exaggerated even after that.
Very interesting discussion. Thank you 😊
19:20 Depends on which season.
By now there are seasons of Star Trek where characters have spiritual symbiotes, which sounds _really_ like "familiar spirit" ....
The discussion is kind of interesting.
When I was in my heighday writing a fan fiction involving both CSL and JRRT characters, I concluded, The Lost Road can't involve true time travel to real past times because it contradicts Biblical history (JRRT was obviously alive at a point when Catholic clergy in the West started getting too loose on this one), but God creating Narnia is fine, since pretending He couldn't would go against the condemnation of thesis 34 in Bishop Tempier's Syllabus.
However, since then there is a problem with Narnia too.
Not with reading, since I can't deny both works have helped to deepen my faith, and keep me in the faith, but in writing on same premisses.
To CSL, Aslan is a "parallel incarnation" of God the Son, in another universe. The problem is stating there could be another universe for which the Incarnation in Nazareth / Bethlehem _weren't valid._
That's not all. I tried to get around that by pushing instead the narrative that in the world of Narnia, Jesus, in a human body, is present under the accidents of the body of a talking lion. Catholic theology, no problem. The problem is, this approach contradicts the words in CSL's actual books, most notably the dialogue between Aslan and Bree in HHB. So, I got stuck.
Haha! Amazing content
I am Catholic and I indeed share this. Amazing, mellon!
I like the Star Wars analogy
I think the guy’s response is more reflective of general, invincible boomer logic (or lack thereof) than it is necessarily indicative of evangelical sentiments towards Catholics.
I've never met a Christian who disapproved of LotR. Tolkien was a devout Christian and there are countless biblical allegories in his stories. He even played a large role in C.S. Lewis' conversion to Christianity.
Agreed. Of all the issues in the world I'm amazed this supposed one requires a video.
I disapprove. Tolkien was a Catholic and CS Lewis was a Universalist. Neither of them were Christian.
@@estherhoward7959yeah, cause the religion that literally spread the word of Christ across Europe and most americas is not a christian religion…
Catholicism and Christianity are two different religions.
Esther, you can have your opinions all you like, but this isn’t the place to share them.
how the fuck do they not know how catholic Tolkein is? Gandalf is a friggin angel! what?
I feel like most Christians are more inclined to incorporate LOTR into the unofficial Canon like Paradise Lost, Dante's Inferno or the Curious Tale of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Tolkein by comparison has this problem far less than a lot of other fantasy, but there are people who have such a strict anti-magic stance because of false beliefs about what the Bible actually says. However, I do think Tolkein (and by extension C.S. Lewis) are forgiven a lot more easily by most Christians.
Also I think you forgot about Pilgrim's Progress.
There is also a conspiracy going around (I still don't know where they get it from) that both Lewis and Tolkien were part of the Golden Dawn.
Good question.
Star Trek, especially the original series, had tons of psionic beings, beings who had such strong mental powers that they were able to create illusions, teleport people, etc. It also had an alien who claimed to be the Greek God Apollo, able to seize a star ship in its orbit and shot lightning bolts. Granted, his power was based on technology, but still. The Next Generation has Q. Enough said.
And let's not forget Star Trek V, where Kirk and co meet a being flat-out impersonating God. (Or maybe do forget it, if only because said film wasn't exactly the high point of the franchise.)
As Kirk said, "Why does God need a starship?"
@@michaelnewsham1412 Well, as far as power scales, you could also ask, "Why does an omnipotent being need six days to create the universe and everything in it, or need to rest after?"
Thank you for the analysis. I am christian and never made a secret of being a die hard Tolkien fan. And also I got a lot of shitstorm from my brethren through the years (interestingly never from any pastor). And I used the same arguments with more or less success. Star Wars is also on the hit list of these people, and I love that too (at least the pre-Disney movies and expanded universe)
At least Star Wars is drawing a lot on vaguely Buddhist thoughts regarding the force. As a Christian who enjoys studying other religions though, it's silly imo to demand every piece of media agree with you before enjoying it. Eat the meat, spit out the bones, chill out.
@@tayh.6235 I’d rather people NOT chill out (in the sense of not caring as much). There’s been far too much chilling out and not enough taking the faith seriously. However, you are right that discernment is needed. It should be easy to tell where things line up with the faith and where they don’t. I like Star Wars, but I’m also well aware of differences in its worldview from my own. Most people don’t do what you describe. They passively consume the whole thing and sometimes absorb stuff unknowingly if they hear it enough. That’s why I don’t want people to “chill out” but to be aware. That doesn’t mean avoid everything. That just means know what you believe and what you’re getting into.
I've come across Christians who take this kind of line about Star Wars, but not any who do it with LOTR. The Force,and the Jedi religion are heavily influenced by Eastern religions, and they play that aspect of the Star Wars films up a lot.
Yeah if anything I'd see Christians taking a harsher stance against Star Wars than Tolkein. If they dislike Tolkein because of magic Star Wars is obviously going to be something they dislike as well. I think maybe he just doesn't see this as prominent with Star Wars because, well, he's a Tolkein guy so he comes up with Christians disliking Tolkein due to magic far more, and doesn't look into Star Wars as much.
People who have such a hardline against Tolkein because of "magic" are not going to like Star Wars either.
I wrote a paper in high school on the Christian themes of The Lord of The Rings.
I don’t remember most of my paper on this other than the lambas bread is like sacrament/communion.
I'm just a plain Christian as you would find in the New Testament and I love LOTR! In fact, Gollum is one of my favorite Middle Earth characters. Bilbo being the other.
I’d have expected it to be the other way round as most discussions (or other UA-cam channels) tend to ‘safely’ acknowledge Tolkien’s Catholicism and that it influenced his writings but quickly move on to something else. I don’t know if that’s because non-Christians don’t want to offend anyone talking about something they’re not really involved in maybe.
I’m not a Christian but I’ll happily find out anything to do with LotR.
I think most non-Christians will simply overlook the Christian elements similar to how someone not versed in Chinese writing will overlook a pun in a Chinese sign when watching a Chinese movie.
As a Christian who's had this convo with my mom far too many times, I clicked so fast lol
On a serious note, I genuinely find the best fantasy is beneficial to my faith. I'll find fodder for theological musings in anything, but I really love when a work of fiction has enough for me to really dig deep. Tolkien's works are the best I've ever found for that.
It's mind-boggling that there are still people so desperately worried about fictional media. Honestly, I don't think literary analysis can save most people like this, because their problem is a toxic worldview that has corrupted their approach to media and the world at large. It's hard to reason with someone who is dogmatically opposed to the very concept of imagination. It's coming from a preoccupation (obsession?) with identifying and condemning things for being heretical.
Heck, even pointing out how Tolkien's Catholic faith influenced Lord of the Rings could outright backfire. People like this are likely to have _certain opinions_ about Catholics...
My uncle still thinks D&D is demonic LOL When mom told him that I play it with my friends on Sundays, he had her convinced that it was evil and she tried to beg me to stop. I'm 32 🙄
This is honestly a uniquely American problem. European Christian’s have embraced fairy stories far better than the west has.
Orthodox Christian here, never heard anybody calling LoTR satanic. Heard plenty about Harry Potter, though. (Honestly, examining Harry Potter, and J.K Rowling herself, I thinks it's true)
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis are really well liked in Orthodoxy, despite being heterodox. C.S. Lewis especially, most of us would consider him the closest a man can get to being Orthodox, without being Orthodox, so we like him a lot.
Though, to be honest, when Orthodox people call something satanic we aren't really that... Hype up about it. Pretty much anything _can_ be satanic, even, or rather especially, things that seem good. We're more relaxed about it, is what I mean.
A Protestant would be ranting and raving about how something is satanic, an Orthodox person would just state "Yeah, its satanic. Is what it is". We aren't as... Maniacal about it.
At the risk of getting a little preachy, I honestly think it's because they themselves are satanic. The Holy Spirit brings calm and clarity, not rage and... Whatever the heck it is that Pentacostals do with throwing themselves around like they're reenacting a scene from the Exorcist.
Also, satanic doesn't just mean "satan worshipping", it means "anything that isn't of God". Atheism, Paganism, Manosphere, Ancap, Communism etc are all equally satanic.
Doesn't Durin's Bane, the balrog in Moria, also use "spells" akin to how Gandalf uses magic at the door to the Chamber of Records?
Gandalf does mention a “counter spell”
I have a question. What about the Kingsfoil plant? Would that be considered a magical object? And if it is, wouldn’t Aragorn be a magic wielder too?
We know plants can have medicinal properties. Why can’t this just be a particularly potent one?
@@TolkienLorePodcast Maybe. But what about when Aragorn heals Faramir? You said yourself in a video awhile back that there’s an element of magic there when Faramir hails his true King, despite never meeting him before.
@kelleyjordan454 magic in a very broad sense. Spiritual connection would probably be a more precise way of putting it.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks. I appreciated this video as a devout Lutheran and big Tolkien fan
One may also consider this : aragon as rightful king in the eyes of God is granted miraculous healing abilities.
Also, there's an angel in the Bible that sets fire to something with his staff, when he appears to the parents of Sampson and lights up under a meal or sacrifice?
One could question whether that’s the angel’s own power or God acting through him as He did for, say, Moses. That’s why I don’t think it’s clear.
If we're going that route, is anything happens done by powers outside of God? He is the creator and sustainor of all things, so what apart from negations are outside of His power?
Apparently the books say they use spells. Still watching the video so not sure if you address this.
Interested to hear more of objects you'd consider magical like the palantir, ent draught, elvish swords and the like
Elvish Swords aren’t necessarily magic, it’s a forging technique and their hatred and feelings for who the weapon is to be used against. They don’t use any innate magic, or are have any magical properties imbued into the metal; and it’s only blades forged in Gondolin that provide those qualities.
If you approach Lord of the Rings from a secular lens it’s a “soft magic” system; which means powers are a manifestation of the character and often times are rarely explained.
So if you were to consider the Miracles in the Bible; through a secularist lens, they exist within a soft magic system.
“Magic” in Lord of the Rings often times presents itself more as Miracles than outright control or power over magical forces or powers.
Palantir, are seeing stones; sort of like portable scrying pools. So within a Christian Worldview think of them as an Icon; sort of how the Orthodox Church utilizes the crucifix upon which revelation is given.
Ent Draught can easily be described away with the pagan historical influences; as a lot of the Elvish and deep lore of Nature was derived from Celtic myths.
But needing a story to be perfectly in lines with the Bible means you’re writing the Bible and well we already have the Bible. Understanding what is make believe and fantastical fairy stories from what are important vital moral and ethical lessons is the key difference.
If LotR was inherently blasphemous Veggie Tales would have parodied it.
I was raised in a Baptist and Catholic family, but have become agnostic as time progressed as I got tired of not being able to question anything with respect to blind belief; I love Christian morals, but not a blind follower worldview.
If some Christians, and other religions, want to criticize the brilliant Tolkien as a heretic, he's more than welcome to join the rest of us apostates who support his beautiful and inspiring work, which, in my opinion, is far "holier" than the loons who defame him.
People worried about "witchcraft", which is fantastical, and wizards (who are almost always a force of good) are nuts. Even if a human, or angel or elf, could perform magic, that does not by definition make them evil objectively, how they use it would.
I found two Necromancer references in the Bible, both in the Old Testament.
Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that God find necromancy to be an abomination.
Leviticus 20:27 says, "A man or woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death."
Both Bible verses also include wizards.
@@estherhoward7959
But as Joshua mentioned, Tolkien's "Wizards" (a.k.a. Istari) are very different from the most common understandings of wizards.
@@estherhoward7959 tell us where Gandalf or any other wizard used necromancy I won’t wait cause you can’t 😂
@@Gandalf_the_Gold Gandalf is evil for simply being a wizard and practising wizardry.
@@estherhoward7959 if you knew the tale you would know that “wizard” is only something that other people call Gandalf and those like him because he and the others are actually more akin to Angels disguised as old men. Wizard is not a term of his own choosing but rather a title that people who don’t understand what he is have given him. He is nearly as far from evil as one can get in the world of the tale. He’s not actually a wizard he is just called one by others.
As an American Catholic who once had to explain that Catholicism is a form of Christianity to a nondenominational Protestant (and then had to explain the Reformation, lol) I laughed a little too hard at the part about Tolkien having been a devout Catholic maybe not helping your case with a lot of these people.
16:48 _"dragons, trolls"_
Dinosaurs, nephelim.
A lot of modern historians believe humans have been digging up Dinosaur bones for a long time; we just kind of misinterpreted them as weird stuff like dragons.
@@edwardweaver6869 I've noticed.
The problem is, lots of traditions involve meeting such critters live, rather than just finding bones of them.
Dating dinos to "65 000 000 years ago" is reconstruction, taking dragons as things we have met in a not too far off past is tradition.
I generally prefer tradition over reconstruction.
Someone picky could see Aragorn controlling/commanding the dead men as necromancy
Eh, it’s a bit of a stretch. It seems pretty clear they could still choose to just continue living in their cursed state. But yeah, certain kinds of people would latch onto that.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It’s the literal definition of “communicating with the dead” doesn’t matter if the dead presented themselves to you right xD
I don't think it forbids interaction with apparitions. Summoning and invoking spirits is a very different thing.
@@Carolus_B That’s kind of where it gets tricky with that; because LINGUISTICALLY he did engage in necromancy. However from a spiritual level, if the spirit is there and presents itself to you is it necromancy?
Take the Bell Witch of Tennessee for example. It was a presence that would interact and communicate with the residents of the town.
As a Christian... If someone is afraid of Harry Potter or Lord of the rings, they are beyond repair. Some people you should just forget about, it's not worth trying to convince them of anything.
D&D came out around 72 or 73(without looking it up) At the same time that a reawakening of Christian movement called The Way. This was a youthful movement which i ascribed to and rejected D&D as being occult. I was so disappointed in that aspect!!😊
The Lord of The Rings and the Silmarillion were both very useful and inspiring in my own faith in Christ. When other Christians make ignorant claims, dismissive or ridiculous comments about Tolkien and his work, I pretty much stop taking their commentary on anything very seriously. Not very charitable of me, but it’s the default reaction I have.
Trying to persuade such people is a complete waste of time. Once they learn that the God in Tolkien's stories is named Eru rather than Jehovah, they'll scream blasphemy.
Even though Tolkien would agree with them that it is in fact blasphemous.
He said explicitly they are Christians worshipping in the wrong way.
"Future fiction" ... I think there is a word for that, "speculative fiction", where the setting is an advanced future, but the story isn't about the technology.
You might be right. I r heard that term but only in passing.
Hard sci-fi is the term usually used for theoretically possible science fiction
I've always heard of that being referred to as Future Fantasy.
Why try?
1:35 I was going to ask if this is more of an American thing, as I've never met anyone in Europe who refused to watch Lord of the Rings - or anything else, whether it's film, literature, music etc. - for religious reasons, including people of faith.
I think you're kind of freestyling this conversation I think a dictionary is an order for you to use to clarify some things
Such as?
Maybe this is pedantic but one of the most overt displays of what most people would call magic from LOTR I remember was when Elrond used Vilya to flood the river and kill the nazgul’s horses. Of course there is nothing supernatural about this but I doubt people unfamiliar with Tolkien’s wider world would understand that difference.
Lord of the Rings has so many Christian undertones throughout it at times (in my opinion) comes across as more Christian than many parts of the bible.
I approve. And declare this channel. SANCTIFIED AND SECURE ....
WELCOME
George Lucas was raised a methodist christian, but he explicitly set out to create a kind of "ur-religion" with the force, if you strip all deities, angels, demons, spirits etc. from religion what you are left with is a type of primitive animism, wherein there is a de-personified universal spiritual life force ("the force of others" in the original draft) that guides peoples actions.
The Jedi are very Zen Buddhist.
A priest at my church talked about lotr and how great it was lol
4:50 -- Compare Judges 6:21
I have yet to have a pastor that doesn’t occasionally reference the Lord of the Rings lol.
Really trying to state that Tolkien promoted witch-craft would be like citing Anubis as a Satanic figure witch many sadly do. While you can make those arguments about Dungeons and
Dragons whether or not it endorses the Occult (While I know its a game, they were applying in the Tiamat campaign that allying with devils would be preferred and or a necessary
evil in-order to beat her. Also player characters can be connected to lords of hell. Just not Tiamat who canonically isn't evil incarnate by found web info.) There is nothing to be
found in Lord of Rings that would suggest any of that. Maybe its cause the world is non-Christian but it was packed load of moral choices and role-models that can help others
grow as a person such as 'don't seek wrath rashly' and 'fight back temptation' and 'not giving in when all seems hopeless'. The very fact that we have a bad-guy called The
Witch King flying a hell-beast, and the fact that Tolkien made 'once convinced' Atheist C.S Lewis a Christian on of 'The most' influential 'men of faith' of his time brining faith
to a post WWI world you'd think that'd be enough but, I guess not. I do understand the concern about the fantasy genre to a certain degree for I was reading the pilot novel of
Terry Goodkind's myself in-shock (I didn't know this was the bad-guy) that this man had a character sacrifice a human-child who loved him, in-order to make him a demon minion
written in such a way it seemed a Good-thing (I also read Scarlet St. Clair's Game of Gods. Less said about Hades Saga the better!) I pretty much wanted to put the book down
and bury it were I found it. I've seen this argument against Harry Potter again and again, but again like LOTR you'd think the author herself being Christian, and her MC telling
evil 'No!' right in his face repeatedly would be fine but again 'all magic bad' argument hurts what could enlighten and encourage creativity. Meanwhile Rick Riordan had
referenced actual occult concepts in his Kane-Chronicles series citing Allister Crowley's 'Book of Thoth' as a ref for a pair of magician kids and their Uncle becomes an effective
Satanist in the end arc (I personally don't believe that Egypt's Set is The Devil. A god who's sworn duty was to protect the Lord of Light against all forces of Darkness only
acting out in Wrath cause his siblings had poisoned and overthrew the god he was protecting, doesn't say 'pure-evil' to me. The Greek Dionysus is a closer match and Rick Loves him!)
and true Rick Riordan was a former Catholic, so he likely isn't telling kids to seek The Occult, but I was personally disturbed by how much he Romantized Dionysus making him a
'good' councilor for children in recent works! Honest people shouldn't be attacked for writing fantasy or having good guy magic users. Even C.S Lewis has one in Prince Caspian!
It’s very hard to claim spiritism when there are no spirits. Which is true of the books. The movies have failed to demonstrate this accurately.
I think only Valar , Maiar, and the Elves are gifted with powers but even Galadriel couldnt maintain Lothlorien without power bestowed by a Maiar.
I thought Lothlorian was maintained first and foremost by the power of Galadriel's ring. That was made by an Elf, not a Maia.
@johankvang7464 you know, I stand corrected. Sauron had no hand in the forging of the Elven rings. And though he indeed instructed Celebrimbor in the fashioning of the rings, he did not, himself, make them. So by his instruction, his influence as a Maiar, he was instrumental, was he not? But to be honest, that was not my thought at that moment. Namarië !!
0:42 Already intrigued.
I was actually warned against Harry Potter by a Catholic priest or bishop (if the latter it was Mgr Williamson) who stated that JRRT and CSL are OK, while he had asked exorcists that some stuff in HP is too realistic (could be used as kind of a manual).
You mean some occult sources are copied too verbatim in it, as as Rowling did not believe in magic, she was not bothered enough to get it distorted enough not to be repeatable? Then again the Grimm tales do contain some ancient spells too - but maybe without the details how to perform them...
@@Chociewitka The guy whom I read back in the 90's claimed an exorcist had claimed the general spirit of some of the especially curses was too realistic, and could at least get someone part of the way to performing black magic.
Not sure what part of Grimm would be doing that.
@@hglundahlI’d want more proof of that claim from that priest before I’d believe it.
@@hglundahl well there were some parts of the so called "Folk-belief" in the Grimm tales there, but only parts, one could not really reconstruct the whole... But the magic the evil queens perform does often involve rudimental description of spells and rituals, e.g. blood spells...
@@TitusCastiglione1503 Look it up in Mitteilungsblatt der Priesterbruderschaft Sankt Pius X some time from 1996 or 1997 and trace him.
Men are less magical than elves who are less magical than the Maiar who are less magical than the Valar, who are less divine the Illuvatar. However, the Men of Numenor were taught magic by the elves and were more magical than men who did not help the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath to cast down Morgoth in the First Age. This is why they were able to make the barrow blades to harm the Witch King.
Those who thump the Bible the loudest have usually read it the least.
Pretty much every sermon in pretty much every modern "Christian" church (catholic, protestant, and orthodox alike) are chock full of teachings that are directly opposed to what the Bible actually says, yet every one of them claims what they're teaching to be "Biblical".
For Christians, I would argue that Harry Potter and LOTR are fine. Be careful with A Song of Ice and Fire, though. NOT FOR PEOPLE UNDER 18!
If I run into a flat earther or a hollow earther, or their ilk, I simply ignore them. There are those on either fringe of this that begs the question, is it really worth the effort? Is anyone really going to convince the devotees of either extreme, that they're wrong? I mean, I remember a big hurricane was believed to be set to run up the east coast of the US. A Christian group said they were praying for it to divert from it's predicted course, a Wiccan group said they were casting spells to do that. It did, both sides claimed they did it. Or when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes in one year. Some 'Christians' said it was God's wrath! Was it? Or a New Age person who claimed Mary was a goddess because there's a Latin word Dea. Of course there is, the Romans had female gods! Of course she, and her followers, couldn't understand that. She also claimed that the pyramids proved she's a goddess because her name is in them, i.e. pYRAMids. Ludicrous for sure, but some fawned over her, insight. So, ignore them, feel sorry for them.
Star Trek TNG has the Q Continuum, and that guy who was a Douwd, who are near omnipotent.
60s Star trek has a couple of those type characters too.
and there's telepathy, 'thought-speech', if u will.
Vulcans of course have mind melding.
strange how the critics seem to place false magic on the same level as a real God.
Depends on which God you're talking about, because the world is filled with many religions, most of whom consider each others' religions false.
Im a practicing Catholic and love LoTR.
Uh…Tolkien was literally staunch Catholic. Who the fuck looks at LOTR and calls it blasphemous?!
Anyone of a variety of Christian who doesn't consider Catholics Christian, of which I've known several. There are over 10,000 different denominations of Christianity after all, and many of them consider the others heretical.
15:27 _"just writing a fun story for his kids"_
True about The Hobbit, not true about Lord of the Rings. When it comes to Gandalf, ultimately, I think he owes lots to St. Raphael in the Book of Tobit.
Which obviously, some Evangelicals would think that makes it even worse.
I don't care about acknowledging the existence of the Apocrypha, but I am against considering them canonical. I think its good supplementary reading but should not be taken as part of the canon, which is where I draw my line.
@@jrconway3 Have it your way, I'll have it God's!
Wasn’t I specifically referring to The Hobbit when I said that?
@@TolkienLorePodcast You are right, at 15:01 / 15:03 you were.
My bad. A weakness of mine when listening.
@hglundahl that’s ok, when I was editing I realized I forgot to even complete my thought about JK Rowling 🤣
8:47 Necromancy is not just _any_ communication with the dead.
If we go to the Greek, necros + manteia suggests soothsaying by means of that dead. That is certainly forbidden.
Neither the actual direct wording in (I think Leviticus, anyway in) the books of Moses, nor the Catholic interpretation thereof will buy that Maria Simma was committing necromancy, when asking a soul from Purgatory what he or she needed (the answer was three Masses).
Catholicism is not Christianity.
@@estherhoward7959 Too bad for you to think that, but at least you can't prove it from Leviticus as it stands (it was Leviticus, right, was it 19 or sth?).
@@hglundahl go and watch the Third Adam series by Spencer Smith, it's all summed up pretty well there.
@@estherhoward7959 oh, you don't wont to argue yourself, well, then don't!
@@estherhoward7959 Go and watch another human being talk about his opinion on yet another human being? Nah. If you're the variety of Christian I think you are, you should use your personal relationship with Christ and read the Bible to get your instructions on how to think and believe, not Spencer Smith.
If someone thinks Lord of the Rings is witchcraft they will likely think most midea is. I myself have even heard these folks call Star Wars and Pokemon witchcraft. I'm not sure there is much that can be done to convince them otherwise.
I was told by a woman one time that not only is The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter evil and satanic, but so is The Chronicles of Narnia.
My ex-boyfriend was of the same opinion. But he didn’t really read any books, Christian or not, fiction or non fiction. Obviously it didn’t work out. I am an avid reader, often reading more than 100 books a year.
I am baffled that Christians like that still exists. Like, Tolkien's work is explicitly and fundamentally Christian--there are even points in his legendarium where he is pretty much quoting Scripture and the more you study his work, the more you notice how fundamental Christianity is to his work
Could Gandalf be compared to an angel? There was Eru, the One, and then there were the Aina, and THEN came the Maia, of which Gandalf was one. But yeah, I guess angel is the closest thing in Christianity and in most other religions. So I guess Saruman was a fallen angel, as they have in Christianity. But then what was Sauron, who was a maiar?
The Maiar are Ainur. Ainur is just the general category with Valar and Maiar as subcategories. Sauron and Gandalf and Saruman are all Maiar so they’re all in the same subcategory.
@@TolkienLorePodcastNo different than the distinction between thrones, dominations, cherubim, serifim, etc.
All of these are angels and were created in the same instance.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Same with Morgoth. I know a lot of Tolkien readers quote Tolkiens dislike of allegory, but it's fairly blatant that Melkor/Morgoth is Lucifer/Satan, and Tolkien noting that balrogs are demons makes them analogous fallen angels as well, so Sauron is merely another fallen angel, albeit one of the most powerful ones.
I know retreat written by polish catholic priest based on Tolkien... 🙂
It cut down on church activities.
What an interesting question and a nice discussion. Personally I think Tolkien was aware of a tension between his Christian belief and, well, his belief in fairies. Because that is what he had; a study of On Fairy-stories and its extensive drafts* convinces me of it. He illustrates the point by quoting from the ballad True Thomas. Says the Queen of Elphame (Elfland):
"O see ye not that narrow road,
So thick beset with thorns and briers?
That is the path of righteousness,
Tho after it but few enquires.
"And see not ye that braid braid road,
That lies across that lily leven?
That is the path to wickedness,
Tho some call it the road to heaven.
"And see not ye that bonny road,
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
There is a much darker tradition about Thomas, mentioned in Popular Rhymes of Scotland by Robert Chambers (1870), a work we know Tolkien consulted. Namely, he was an inspirational figure for a Satanic witch-cult led by a real-world "Queen of Elphame" who was a debauched, promiscuous woman. This cult was at the centre of the 1597 Aberdeen witch-trials, which Tolkien may have had in mind in the remarks about Macbeth. Oh and the witches summon the long-dead Thomas by necromancy.
So yes, there is a definite influence of witchcraft. In my opinion, Tolkien was, so to speak, separating out or polarising the good and bad ideas, so the Queen could become the beautiful fairy on the Christmas tree of his boyhood imaginings (and "Smith").
With the Istari, one could compare St Augustine's ideas about angels in Of Christian Doctrine (De Doctrina Christiana). Augustine talks about angels in a very matter-of-fact way, clearly believing they are present in the world:
"For if we find our happiness complete in one another, we stop short upon the road, and place our hope of happiness in man or angel. Now the proud man and the proud angel arrogate this to themselves, and are glad to have the hope of others fixed upon them. But, on the contrary, the holy man and the holy angel, even when we are weary and anxious to stay with them and rest in them, set themselves to recruit our energies with the provision which they have received of God for us or for themselves; and then urge us thus refreshed to go on our way towards Him" -- DDC 1, 33
Augustine also asks himself if angels are "neighbours" whom we should love. Very like Treebeard complaining that Saruman is a "neighbour".
*Verlyn Flieger and Douglas Anderson (eds), Tolkien on Fairy-stories, 2008
You dont want to waste your time trying. They have already fallen down the rabbit hole and they aint climbing back out. They have voluntarily de-programed themselves from logic.