Some points in favor: the threat to the Elves was acute at the time, if the Valar did not act immediately all the Firstborn would have been ruined by Melkor. But it also turned out to be correct in the long term, as the corruption of Creation by Melkor's dissemination of his spirit into all matter made it impossible for incarnate immortals to survive (or at least thrive) in the long-term outside of Valinor. Arda Marred was now ultimately toxic to the Elves, which is why all Elves, not just the Noldor, must evacuate to Valinor or diminish to shades, their bodies weakened and faded by Morgoth's poisoning of the world, leaving only their spirits after some millennia. Valinor was a lifeboat, the last pocket of the original purity where the Elves could live out the life of the universe whole, without being stretched (like a ring-wraith in reverse) into oblivion. In a way, it's like Humanity was Iluvatar's solution to Arda Marred, that with our short lives and untethered spirits we can survive and thrive in this Morgoth-tainted reality.
"Remember that unbalanced strength is evil, that unbalanced severity is only cruelty and oppression, but that unbalanced mercy is also only weakness, which would allow and favor evil." LIBER LIBRAE
Good explanation. I think that to understand Manwë you must abandon your human judgement and go higher on a greater, spiritual level. This is more difficult for someone who think only about revenge. Great as always Steven.
Excellent video! Over time Manwë has become my favorite Vala. I think many readers misunderstand that, while he may be the Elder King, he is still bound by the rules of Eru's creation and his own role as the one most responsible for helping see Eru's design fulfilled, not just commanding it be done. I also think many readers fail to try and understand how the perspective of an immortal power, whose abilities vastly exceed our own, will be different from our own perspective.
I don't want to speak for everyone but in past discussions there's been this idea that they are "Gods" and that by not stepping in they are essentially allowing the suffering and/or don't care. An extension of the problem of evil discussion many have about religion. I just like to share some of these Tolkien texts that never seem to be involved in such discussions.
@@TheRedBookpersonally I feel every time manwe sees melkor acting out he’s probably thinking I am not encouraging this behavior melkor thrives off attention
Great video as always! And yes , I have noticed myself I’m often in the position of having to “ defend “ or rather explain Manwe , in discussions with other fans ( and he’s not even my favorite Vala , I tend to agree more with Ulmo ). But I have noticed many people have hard time understanding the purity of Manwe . Purity of soul and thoughts and innocence , they mistake for foolishness and naivety. I am not sure why , it’s so hard to understand that Tolkien never stated ( quite the opposite ) that the Valar are perfect and everything they do is faultless . But truly Manwe as the pure good he was ,simply had no ways to perceive and comprehend the pure evil Melkor became . And the usual questions I see - “ but in 1vs1 who will win “ idk how to even answer those , because those that ask that must have the mentality of a 6 y/o 😅. Tolkien has so many versions of “ power “ , it’s not so simple as 1vs1 mortal combat .
I think some people may get confusd to due to term 'gods' being used for the Valar sometimes. Tolkien usually saying that term was used by mortals within the story and it's not a reflection of their true place in the world. So, people then imagine them as Olympians or something, the actual Gods of that mythology. Meaning, when they don't do this or that, it's their choice and they are enabling suffering and hardship. Which is why I think sources like I've quoted in this video are important for understanding their nature and relationship to the world. And just do what I do with those weird questions, ignore them! They seem to be everywhere. The comic book style of problem solving, it all eventually just ends in fisticuffs. I can't even imagine what Nienna 'fighting' would be like cause it's not always about that :D
@@TheRedBook Yep, I’ve definitely started to ignore a lot of “ questions” in the fandom when I see the person asking misunderstands way too much , making the question by itself wrong . But the fighting part … this weirdly reminded me of that Netflix anime of mythology Gods fighting the strongest human heroes 1vs1 to decide the destiny of humanity or something , lol…. I believe sadly , the majority exact that kind of powers and heroism to call someone strong or powerful . While Tolkien portrays a very diverse array of powers .
I also appreciate the reference to one of the few changes made in the movies that I completely disagree with; Aragorn cutting off the Mouth of Sauron's head, more like an American action hero than a king.
I don't usually leave a comment, but just had to say Wow. As you know, I've had my favorite video in your library (as well as my top 3). And, though it's been awhile for this to happen, this video just topped my other favorite(s). Not only was it a deep insight into a complex topic, I actually learned something new about Tolkien. That doesn't happen very often anymore for me. And, I'm once again anxious to open myself up to Tolkien's essays. I just pulled out my copy of Nature of Middle Earth and I plan on once again trying to read it this weekend. So well done, my friend. In every way.
Another amazing video Steven! Well done! This concept of honorable leadership and not stooping to the level of your enemies is definitely a concept that resonates in many places. Even in real life. Many o us may find ourselves in position of leadership, which often means we run into conflicting viewpoints. If we respond to the opposition with the same spite and hate, we ultimately undermine our own legitimacy as a leader and loose the trust of those that followed. Martin Luther King also understood this concept when he asked people of the civil rights movement to not respond to violence with violence so that their message of peace, equality, and acceptance was not undermined. Manwe being forced to follow certain rules or risk becoming another tyrant also reminds me of the restrictions of the Jedi in Star Wars. I know who have criticized George Lucas's presentation of the Jedi in the prequel trilogy. Criticism of the Jedi is just as justified as criticism of Manwe, but in the same way we have the gift of hindsight and do not have the same level of responsibility as they do. If the Jedi respond to the Sith with violence, deceit, or allow attachments and emotions to overwhelm them, they risk becoming more dark jedi or sith themselves. Darth Sidious in Star Wars approaches his destruction of the Jedi the same way as Melkor deceives the Valor. Both know the other side are bound by rules that they cannot break, yet they can. Yes, the Jedi failed in the prequels and allow the republic to become an evil empire, but if they behaved like the Sith, they would create an even worse Empire than what we see in the Original Trilogy. An empire of thousands of evil force wielders with the power to bend minds, levitate objects, and destroy entire planets. Anakin falls into the trap of using the methods of the Sith in order to destroy them and control his own destiny, but doing so makes him the greatest enemy of the galaxy. In contrast, Luke actually doesn't defeat the Emperor in Return of the Jedi by fighting him. He defeats him by retaining his honor and choosing not to fight. By choosing the path of a true Jedi, the path his father never took, ultimately inspires his father to break the cycle of hate and end the Emperor's tyranny. And Manwe choosing to show mercy to Melkor allows the free peoples of middle earth to ultimately unit with the valor and defeat Morgoth once and for all.
Thank you so much for clearly making clear the responsibilities of Manwe, his own fallibility, the privilege of hindsight that we have, and the danger if Manwe (or other valar) becoming a new and even worse Melkor.
In my own opinion this is perhaps the least flawed ( if flawed can it be called because it has arguments to suggest that it wasn’t as you explained in great detail in this video ) action of Manwe. The one that makes the least sense to me is that Valar always seem to underestimate Melkor They get driven by him alone from Middle Earth for Eru-knows-how-many-millenias and Tulkas comes and the balance of power shifts in Valars favor. That’s all good but it seems they never learned how mighty their brother was proven when they literally feasted in Almaren hoping perhaps that Melkor somehow went into space never to return? Its of course plausible that Valar would sometimes rest ( although biologically they need none ) but one would at least put some guards when they are in their feasting right? Okay that’s their first mistake at least understandable to some level but the destruction of the Trees? How in the freaking world they can fall for the same trap again and this time Melkor wasnt even outside of Arda, he wasnt even outside of Aman and yet he still leaves them all with suprised pikachu faces. When you can hear everything and see all in the entire planet in a matter of seconds when your wife is with you and you have uncountable spirits at your side that can be recruited to look after Melkor who themselves can travel whole Valinor in a matter of seconds when they took their garments off, you would need surprisingly poor government abilities to let someone sneak off who himself can only take of his body in pain at this point of time. I dont say that Valar should be flawless or anything but it seems that some of their mistakes are just straight up dumb. Raising of Pelori is another thing. How does raising a mountain will stop Melkor by any means and it made half the Middle Earth stay in night and darkness. Not to mention how they didn’t attack Melkor earlier. This one is also very interesting given that Manwe found it surprising Melkor fell that low when they later confront him. Was he expecting that Melkor wouldn’t fall this much and fill Middle Earth with wonderful beauties? Again heavy underestimation of Melkors evil. At least they learned from their mistakes but it seems their newly made policies only had an effect on Sauron ( although even that is questionable given that Saruman doesn’t seem fit in his role as an Istar from the very start )
It's interesting, when Tolkien writes these essays defending Manwe's decisions, I hear them as if Tolkien knew about popular fan responses to the Valar. But the _Silmarillion_ hadn't been released! For like twenty years or more Tolkien was wrestling with the same contradictions that his fans would only even have the chance to notice after his death.
Here is the comment i made from another video that talked about Manwe. Despite your reasons,I still think Manwe is an awful King and Vala A contrast of what he has vs what has he done: -won the spiritual and genetic lottery -was given power over all the Valar -was given lordship over the entire universe -was given knowledge of the afterlife of Mankind VS what has he done -let Morgoth go free despite being advised not to -after Feanor told him not to trust Morgoth,he set him free anyway,got his father killed,than after the consequences of his actions demands Feanor to give up the Silmarils -after Morgoth was free waited millennia before stopping him -after Morgoth was defeated let Sauron go free because reasons -after Sauron corrupted Numenor,he failed to smite him Elendil,Isildur and Gil Galad did a better job at defeating him than a divine archangel -devised a plan so impossible and unachivable for the wizards so much so that got one killed,one traitor and 3 others failed -i imagine that Gandalf too would have done a better job at defeating Sauron if he had the one ring As you can see his regime was one of failure after failure,most of Arda s problems could have been completely avoided if he wasnt so terrible at being both a Vala and a king
A lot of these points are covered in the video though. Are you saying that even after watching it you still think Manwe had the authority and right to do everything you suggested there? If so, we read the text very differently.
@@TheRedBook his releasing of Melkor could be forgiven,as you said,it was per his duty and nature to release Melkor to try to repent. What cant be forgiven is the fact that when Melkor fell again to evil,he waited millennia before stopping him after he corrupted the earth and caused death and destruction on a unimaginable scale. He did the same again with Sauron,and here he didnt even take him back to Valinor like he did with Melkor as he was supposed to ,he waited again for him to cause destruction rather than act.
Ok wasnt this is the red book channel correct. Or is that just the podcast you sometimes post on your channel. Also did y ou get a new microphone cause the voice is close but sounds different....perhaps because of better quality equipment. But these things the video art clippings and skill are much to similar. Perhaps Im just having some sort of Mandela effect or just mistaken. Lol but great video my man.
The basic conceit of Tolkien's work is that The Silmarillion and other stories of ancient times like the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta are the records or are commentaries based on the records of ancient days, drawn from the teaching of the Elves and recorded by the Humans of Numenor and Gondor and even later by Aelfwine. We only see Manwe and the Valar through that lens. I think the idea that Manwe believed that he had erred in not attacking Melkor before the Awakening of the Firstborn or erred in setting Melkor free after he served his sentence show the influence of Elvish and Human interpreters. I think it more likely that Manwe consulted Eru at every turn and fulfilled his will that is be definition inerrant. As the Hebrew Scriptures put it, God's ways are not our ways, so we do not fully understand God's actions. Manwe acts as the will of Eru directs him, and if that means giving Melkor his freedom to do good or evil, well, as Tolkien put it, even Melkor's discord and evil in the end redoundeth to the good, a good greater than as if discord and evil had never been.
This story is very analogous to the story in the Book Enoch, concerning the angels who sinned and later, in Deuteronomy 32 and the gods of nations. The ainar or Vala are stand ins for angels of sons of God. Manwe' would be very similar to the Chief Prince of the Hose, Michael.
Love the channel. Great video topic but reasoning put forth in this argument isn’t sound. The valar were poor stewards. The didn’t want to deal with melkor after the lamps incident so the build themselves Aman a place where melkor couldn’t ruin the things the built there but leaving the entirety of the world for him to ruin. They let him run unchecked for ages knowing they could do something to cuz what chance with men and elves have against a god let’s say. None. He destroyed the two trees killed feanors father yet they elves are they only who’s act to and seemingly cursed by the doom of Mandos. Numenoreans dare to sail west they sink the entire island killing everyone. The valar can act fast when they want to but it always seems to be against beings that aren’t their own kind. They sit behind their mountain encircled god realm and dont act on anything save for Ulmo. And some valar we do know have the ability of foresight btw.
Eru sank Numenor, not the Valar. But, the arguments put forward in the video are really Tolkien's, not mine. I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning but it's how the man who wrote the Legendarium explained the actions of beings within it. It's just "how it is".
This video got me to again wonder why Tuor’s plea to the Valar was necessary. Secondly I wonder, in light of Tolkien’s views on the rules that govern the Valar, what would have happened to Middle Earth if the elves in Aman hadn’t rebelled and followed after Morgoth. Would Morgoth be left to conquer and enslave all of Middle Earth?
Thank you for addressing this, which is an age-old topic of discussion in the fandom. My own thoughts are these: If Manwë had tried to defeat Melkor by his methods, he would have become a new tyrant in Melkor's place. In this case, in accordance with the third theme that forms the basis of the Music of the Ainur, it would be against the formation of the future of Arda, whose melody (Melkor's) was woven into music and whose fate was thus shaped (this is the reason for his descent to Arda), and therefore against the will of Eru. Here, Manwë was the Vala responsible and authorized to carry out Eru's will, as he was a wise king who understood Eru's mind best and therefore had this insight. The suppression and domination of free will is a dominant theme in Tolkien that forms the basis for the formation of evil. This is why it does not directly influence either Melkor's initiatives or the choices of the Children of Ilúvatar. For this reason, being perceived as presenting a passive image is a wrong evaluation resulting from understanding this theme. It seems unfair to me that Manwë should be judged for acting as he should.
wowza! you're new channel has really taken off, just like your original one! Tbh, i didn't think it would work out for you and it was a sad thing to ponder. It makes my brain and it's insatiable lust for quality LOTR lore videos, sing! Anyway, just a truly fantastic video once again m8. Thanks for your insightful and conscientious tributes to Tolkien. You do him justice, I think he would also agree.
Thanks! To be honest, this "new channel" is my old one wearing a new face :D . I tried making a totally new channel but it was hard to get it out there so I came crawling back to this one and asked it for forgiveness.
@@TheRedBook Oh shit you right! Lol. That makes sense xD. Either way, I'm just happy you're still doing your thang. It is obvious you take great care in your craft and I just have to let rare gems like your channel know when they've got something truly appreciated. Anyway, take care Steven! Cya on the next video!
@@TheRedBook Good thing I didn't unsubscribe from this channel when you made the new one. Just kidding! 😂 I had no intention of unsubbing from the best Tolkien Channel on UA-cam.😁👍🏻
I think free will plays into a lot of the decisions Manwë made. In order to show that Eru wasn't whispering in Manwë's ear, he almost had to make mistakes. Eru knew that and "had his back" everytime.
'Such deceit had never been encountered before'. The Discord of Melkor during the Ainulindalë gave a clear example of how Melkor tries to bend all others to his will. I have no issue with how the Valar handled the whole saga, by the way. As you say, their intellects are of a higher power than ours and things can seem obvious in hindsight (although, had they not the power of foresight?). The virtues of the Valar are greater than ours and those who are truly good tend not to be cynical about motives but always look for the goodness in others, no matter their previous transgressions.
I don't really see the Discord as being the same thing. It wasn't about bending their will but more about shielding his own will and motives through blatant lies and falsehoods. The Music had him there for all to see in his challenge of Eru but his lies to Manwe seem more insidious.
@@TheRedBook yes but Manwë surely had an inkling of Melkor's secretive ways when he went often to the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame 😁 Anyway, excellent analysis.
An excellent essay! I cannot believe you felt such a need to preface it with so much self doubt. Really, really great comments on good and evil and honour and deceit. Thank you!
Thank you :) . Don't get me wrong, it's not really self doubt, it's more of a disclaimer for those who conflate my analysis of the Legendarium with my own beliefs. It seems to happen every time I discuss Eru or the Valar!
@@TheRedBook Discussions of Tolkienian theology are *_serious business,_* of course. Eru is literally God, so if we criticize Eru or His Valar servants, we're exposing ourselves as Satanically inclined. I'm glad you chose the pro-Manwe side, otherwise I would have had to renounce your channel, and all your videos, and all your pomps.
@@coreyander286 - I struggle enough in the real world to know when people are being serious or not. Sounds like you are about to anoint me with the oil of exorcism...
@@coreyander286Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as all that; for all the respect I have for the Legendarium it is ultimately subcreation, not exactly the Faith. But I agree that many of the complaints against Eru come from a very similar place as anger against the Christian God does.
Another excellent essay on the role of a specific set characters. Albeit a strongly significant pair and they're roll within the Ainulindalë. I heard some writing of JRRT that I've never read or considered in such the wider sense of the literary works. Thank you and keep up the great work!
Great video essay! It made me reconsider what Tolkien meant by the word, "daunt." I associate that with intimidation through sheer force of personality. Perhaps it also included utter bewilderment. While I assume that the Valar knew that Melkor would in some way oppose them in Arda, they had no way to know what form that opposition would take. Perhaps they joined a battle believing they were entering an Art contest for who could make the best Arda. Instead they were assaulted and their works destroyed. Sounds bewildering and daunting to me. Misjudgement of Manwe is not only common among the fandom it is also an epidemic amongst the villains/anti-heroes of the Legendarium. Sauron, Saruman, Feanor, Maedhros, and Maglor immediately come to mind. All of these traitorous murderers were invited to come before the Elder King to sue for pardon, but because they judge Manwe with the scales and measures of their own darkened hearts and so they dread the one who wants to show them mercy and set them on a path to redemption. I don't doubt that Manwe could phone Home and get some guidance on a way to resolve Feanor's Oath in both a just and merciful way, but that was never meant to be as the sunken cost of evil acts and clouded misjudgement drag them further and further down into the darkness of their own making.
I think the Valar are very flawed in Tolkien’s world. I can understand that they struggle with the concept of evil and therefore can be deceived by it, but Tulkas was not deceived. Their war for the elves was just, but they left men, with no guidance or defence. They also blame people for the sins of their fathers. They sent Saruman, who clearly was not suitable for the task ahead to go as the leader of their messengers. To err is not stupid, but making the same mistakes repeatedly is. The Valar are as flawed as any race in middle-earth.
I can understand Melkor, but why did the Valar allow Sauron to have his way with Middle-Earth. Even Eru, the most absentee amongst the named characters, has to personally intervene three times against Sauron's efforts (Numenor, Gandalf, tripping Gollum) due to the Valar's lassitude regarding him, something he didn't need to do even once against Morgoth. The best they could do was send the Istari, whom were all almost completely unsuccessful (if not for easier stated intervention)
I disagree with the 3rd one being "direct" but that's a conversation for another day. But the Valar clearly didn't just let Sauron have his way. They weren't going to assault Middle-earth in an attempt to avoid past mistakes in doing so. Men were going to defeat this evil but not without the aid. The Istari eventually succeeded through Gandalf. Eru clearly agreed with the plan of the Valar in sending the Istari as He "took up" their plan when Gandafl died and enlarged it. Sending Gandalf back to complete the task. His power and wisdom said to be "much greater" (Letter 156). In the end, Men overcome the evil of Sauron and inherit their stewardship as Elves leave Middle-earth. It wouldn't have worked out like that had the Valar just glided over to Middle-earth to tear down Barad-dur. I guess it's down to accepting that their was a greater plan at work over immediately ending suffering, which is a problem for religious folks to explain!
@@TheRedBook I suppose, to be fair, the prolonged suffering of the peoples of Middle-Earth isn't as egregious as it might be in the real world since they had a fate beyond death which the valar, although unknowing of the specifics, were always aware of. To them, a temporary suffering might not have had a completely different interpretation, which would also explain their particular care towards the elves who were bound to Arda permanently.
I always liked Manwe, and I feel like people are too hard on him. Lots of people think they have all the answers and could totally run the world better than God, and the kind of stuff you hear about Manwe and Eru often echoes that.
Okay, then why did Eru the Allknowing not give a flying EFF about ANYTHING ongoing, besides Numenor? Not a God I'd find too pleasant to follow. Some lazy bum God. HINDSIGHT? The evil of Melkor went on for thousand or more years in Beleriand? How many dead and destroyed realms do you NEED to see "Oh heck, this man must be stopped"? Not speaking against you, but I find this one of the unacceptable concepts in Tolkien's world I otherwise love.
Manwë is not "all-knowing." Only Eru Ilúvatar is all-knowing. Melkor was in Beleriand for less than 600 years, 400 of which he was held in check by the Siege of Angband.
Thank you, Steven, for another excellent video that forces us to rethink what we thought about the Legendarium. I have to admit, I was one of many of those who blamed the Valar for most of the problems in Arda, but after watching this video, I have to apologize to Manwë and the other Valar for judging them without having had enough information. 😞
Great video! It is also worth noting that the moment the Valar found out about the deception of Melkor (at Fëanor's trial) Tulkas hastens out to seize him. He wouldn't do that without the approval of Manwe.
Probably to bring him back to Manwe for further judgement after having clearly gone against his false promises and lies of rehabilitation. Just like what I say in the video, he has to be given the chance to prove what he says is true, and his deception here shows he lied. So, Tulkas would be allowed to drag him back if he is still around :D
I'm 5 mins in and looking forward to what you have to say but it's kinda weird to me people don't understand it. Eru forms the third song around Melkor's dissonance, his evil is every bit as intrinsic to Arda as anything else created by Illuvatar. Seemed pretty self explanatory that Manwe and the other Valar would be bound by Eru's design to allow Melkor's evil as part of the song. The Elves and Men had to face Melkor without the assistance of the Valar, they had to suffer, and to die, and to learn all the lessons that can only be learned through loss and misery, pride and downfalls, desperation and perseverance, and fighting for hope when there is nothing else left to fight for. Melkor is part of the song, and we mortals din't have a long enough view to see the ebb and flow of the music and what parts the dissonance plays in the whole. We only exist for a few brief chords out of a symphony.
I suppose if everyone understood all aspects of the Legendarium we'd have nothing to discuss. I'm not really surprised that a lot of people don't understand the Valar that much as I'm guessing many people may not have read certain texts. If you just quickly explain who the Valar are and that they exist it will lead to the obvious "Why didn't they do this?" line of questioning. I suppose this video is just my attempt to bring some lesser known texts to light that will help :)
@@TheRedBook honestly it never occurred to me that someone would be interested in the Valar enough to want to discuss their possible motivations without knowing the story of the songs of creation. Always figured it was one of those things normies gloss over and anyone geeky enough to care dives headfirst into. Casuals discussing Valar before knowing their origin story never crossed my mind, it should have. Guess I found another of my geek blind spots. lol
Another thing which many people do not understand at all: Manwe can directly communicate with Eru Illuvatar; and no other being in Arda can do this. The power to directly communicate with God is mentioned in the holy books of our worlds: the prophets Moses, Jesus and Muhammed speaking to God or were spoken to by God. This could mean that Manwe is a chosen one or a prophet of Eru in Tolkien's legendarium. It could explain why Manwe was so virtuous and was described in the Silmarillion as having no knowledge of evil. The ability of Manwe to directly converse with Eru is the greatest power on Arda and explains why Manwe took various decisions which baffle us mortals: such as deciding to free Melkor and pardon him after Melkor served a lengthy period of imprisonment.
Tolkien being a flawed man has created a flawed story, all of his characters have major flaws including Eru Iluvatar....Tolkien spent way too much time working on the silmarillion and then ultimately it was finished by his son.... It's an incomplete work at Best.... That being said.... If you look at the characters ultimately Eru Illuvater is at fault and caused the initial problem with his son Melkor, in my opinion ultimately Melkor was created first and with all of the others powers but why else would he be given power 10x greater than the others.... Essentially he was in my opinion the crown Prince WHY ELSE would he have been given that much extra power.... And in my mind it was simplistic he was being primed to be the secondary.... However his father in my opinion betrayed him by giving him free will to play as he wished within the music.... And then he gets angry in the end and shames him angrily.... Causing anger, hurt, humiliation, shame....So Father Eru in my opinion was being hypocritical to his greatest son.... The reason why he wanted to create was because he was like his father....Aule and Yavanna just like their brother had great desire to create and they have their wishes granted however Melkor was not....Eru Iluvatar should have taken his son aside and had some form of communication but he did not.... He should have given him the ability to create instead of frustrating him... He gave him 10 times the power of the others but yet but he was denied to create and he was denied kingship....so Eru basically FCKED with his Sons head and he is the originator of the evil that started.... Because everything that Melkor did was in defiance of his father and having felt shame anger hurt pain all that stuff caused by his dad then of course he's going to feel like an outcast.... The rest of the Valar especially Manwe, Aule, Mandos, Varda, Tulkas in my opinion were a bunch of kiss asses the others not so much including the one that was single like Melkor the one that was always weeping, Ulmo clearly it was not a yes man or a kiss butt....the Valar definitely screwed up with the elves, they also screwed up with Feanor, they screwed up putting Melkor in Prison, they were 2 weak to deal with the Numenor threat, and had totally abandoned Middle Earth except for the wizards which in my opinion was a ridiculous way to Counter Sauron.... I enjoy the Silmarrion whatever time I become more and more critical can I see more and more flaws in the writing and the characters themselves.... Unlike most people I see Eru as the problem...I see Morgoth as a child acting out in rebellion... So instead of helping his child he lets him do whatever, and then imprisoned him, then he's let out again to do is he wishes and then he's in prison again....Eru makes NO EFFORT to redeem his son... I can't think of a greater sin than the father would commit against his child.... Actually I feel deep Pitty for Melkor and by the way he didn't become fake and false until after his imprisonment.... So the imprisonment just made him more in pain and more frustrated and more determined just like in real life prisons make prisoners 100 times worse.... Can I watch criminal in prisoner shows all the time and I've met so many ex-cons in my life that said the same thing.... So yea, Manwe was the teacher's pet....the Yesman.
Melkor hit piece, no one ever tells the story from the Elder Kings perspective. Melkor was first and lone companion Eru, they made music for ages uncounted. When the others were created, they combined, had power equal to Melkor. They were given but small parts of the mind of Eru, but Melkor shared ALL Eru's thoughts. I don't blame him in the slightest for wanting fuck shit up...
Steven, could you do a video on how free will interacts with the dichotomy of good vs evil in the Legendarium?🙏🏻😁 Good characters sometimes make evil choices with their free will, and it doesn't seem to work the other way with evil characters making good/righteous decisions. So how does this all of this work together?🙏🏻😁
If Manwe was not of a mind to forgive, Osse might have gone the same path as Sauron, having followed Melkor's prompting early on before his wife calmed him down...to an extent. Middle Earth would thus have been far more terrible. If Boromir was not allowed the opportunity for repentance, he would have died without peace. It's a perilous thing to say one should not be forgiven according to our judgement, as we can't say when we will be in a position to need mercy, be it from God or from our neighbors.
The way I see it, religion/mythology is and has always been an attempt to explain why things are the way they are, and Tolkien's writings are no exception. So, if there are supremely powerful beings behind it all, there has to be some attempt to hide their actions from mortal beings, because we, in the real world, don't see these actions directly. There is probably no good reason why Manwe and the Valar don't use all their power to do what they have to do, but the story always has to find a reason why they can't, for the sake of the story following this narrative of the gods' actions always being hidden.
I also find the Idea that the Valar erred in bringing Elves to Aman interesting and underexplored.
Some points in favor: the threat to the Elves was acute at the time, if the Valar did not act immediately all the Firstborn would have been ruined by Melkor. But it also turned out to be correct in the long term, as the corruption of Creation by Melkor's dissemination of his spirit into all matter made it impossible for incarnate immortals to survive (or at least thrive) in the long-term outside of Valinor. Arda Marred was now ultimately toxic to the Elves, which is why all Elves, not just the Noldor, must evacuate to Valinor or diminish to shades, their bodies weakened and faded by Morgoth's poisoning of the world, leaving only their spirits after some millennia. Valinor was a lifeboat, the last pocket of the original purity where the Elves could live out the life of the universe whole, without being stretched (like a ring-wraith in reverse) into oblivion. In a way, it's like Humanity was Iluvatar's solution to Arda Marred, that with our short lives and untethered spirits we can survive and thrive in this Morgoth-tainted reality.
"Remember that unbalanced strength is evil, that unbalanced severity is only cruelty and oppression, but that unbalanced mercy is also only weakness, which would allow and favor evil."
LIBER LIBRAE
Good explanation. I think that to understand Manwë you must abandon your human judgement and go higher on a greater, spiritual level. This is more difficult for someone who think only about revenge. Great as always Steven.
Excellent video! Over time Manwë has become my favorite Vala. I think many readers misunderstand that, while he may be the Elder King, he is still bound by the rules of Eru's creation and his own role as the one most responsible for helping see Eru's design fulfilled, not just commanding it be done. I also think many readers fail to try and understand how the perspective of an immortal power, whose abilities vastly exceed our own, will be different from our own perspective.
Couldn't have put it better.
Thank you for you being so transparent about sources and so on. You are one of the the best in terms of the INTRINSIC approach.
Great video! I've never understood this "blame the Valar" mentality, but I suppose we all have our own different ways of understanding myth.
I don't want to speak for everyone but in past discussions there's been this idea that they are "Gods" and that by not stepping in they are essentially allowing the suffering and/or don't care. An extension of the problem of evil discussion many have about religion. I just like to share some of these Tolkien texts that never seem to be involved in such discussions.
@@TheRedBookI suppose we ought to expect Manwë to shoot laser beams out of his eyes every time Melkor steps out of line 😂
@@nickolas.vicente - "Why couldn't Manwe's giant eagles fly Morgoth to the edge of the world and drop him?"
@@TheRedBookpersonally I feel every time manwe sees melkor acting out he’s probably thinking I am not encouraging this behavior melkor thrives off attention
@@TheRedBook
Oh, God! I hope you aren't doing a video on that!! 😅
Great video as always!
And yes , I have noticed myself I’m often in the position of having to “ defend “ or rather explain Manwe , in discussions with other fans ( and he’s not even my favorite Vala , I tend to agree more with Ulmo ).
But I have noticed many people have hard time understanding the purity of Manwe . Purity of soul and thoughts and innocence , they mistake for foolishness and naivety.
I am not sure why , it’s so hard to understand that Tolkien never stated ( quite the opposite ) that the Valar are perfect and everything they do is faultless .
But truly Manwe as the pure good he was ,simply had no ways to perceive and comprehend the pure evil Melkor became .
And the usual questions I see - “ but in 1vs1 who will win “ idk how to even answer those , because those that ask that must have the mentality of a 6 y/o 😅.
Tolkien has so many versions of “ power “ , it’s not so simple as 1vs1 mortal combat .
I think some people may get confusd to due to term 'gods' being used for the Valar sometimes. Tolkien usually saying that term was used by mortals within the story and it's not a reflection of their true place in the world. So, people then imagine them as Olympians or something, the actual Gods of that mythology. Meaning, when they don't do this or that, it's their choice and they are enabling suffering and hardship. Which is why I think sources like I've quoted in this video are important for understanding their nature and relationship to the world.
And just do what I do with those weird questions, ignore them! They seem to be everywhere. The comic book style of problem solving, it all eventually just ends in fisticuffs. I can't even imagine what Nienna 'fighting' would be like cause it's not always about that :D
@@TheRedBook Yep, I’ve definitely started to ignore a lot of “ questions” in the fandom when I see the person asking misunderstands way too much , making the question by itself wrong .
But the fighting part … this weirdly reminded me of that Netflix anime of mythology Gods fighting the strongest human heroes 1vs1 to decide the destiny of humanity or something , lol…. I believe sadly , the majority exact that kind of powers and heroism to call someone strong or powerful . While Tolkien portrays a very diverse array of powers .
@@Ka_T_ya
Nice point 😁👍🏻
Very well done! First time on your channel. Looking forward to seeing more of your content. Cheers from Canada!
Please subscribe and hit 👍🏻.
Also, there are plenty of archived videos you can enjoy.🙏🏻😁
I also appreciate the reference to one of the few changes made in the movies that I completely disagree with; Aragorn cutting off the Mouth of Sauron's head, more like an American action hero than a king.
I haven't been here for a while, maybe a year or so, and I'm impressed by the jump in quality your videos have made. Congrats and respect!
I don't usually leave a comment, but just had to say Wow. As you know, I've had my favorite video in your library (as well as my top 3). And, though it's been awhile for this to happen, this video just topped my other favorite(s).
Not only was it a deep insight into a complex topic, I actually learned something new about Tolkien. That doesn't happen very often anymore for me. And, I'm once again anxious to open myself up to Tolkien's essays. I just pulled out my copy of Nature of Middle Earth and I plan on once again trying to read it this weekend.
So well done, my friend. In every way.
High praise :D I remember the Aragorn one being a favourite, maybe the Sauron confusing ones as well? I can't remember what the other favourite was!
With comments like this, you should post more often😁👍🏻
It also helps with the algorithms directing prospective viewers to the channel.
@@TheRedBook Yes, Aragorn was my fav. Then the Elven population one, and yes the Sauron one. Impressive memory!
@@Callisto_Arcas I think I remembered the Sauron one because it was a shock since I hate that series the most 😅
Another amazing video Steven! Well done!
This concept of honorable leadership and not stooping to the level of your enemies is definitely a concept that resonates in many places. Even in real life. Many o us may find ourselves in position of leadership, which often means we run into conflicting viewpoints. If we respond to the opposition with the same spite and hate, we ultimately undermine our own legitimacy as a leader and loose the trust of those that followed. Martin Luther King also understood this concept when he asked people of the civil rights movement to not respond to violence with violence so that their message of peace, equality, and acceptance was not undermined.
Manwe being forced to follow certain rules or risk becoming another tyrant also reminds me of the restrictions of the Jedi in Star Wars. I know who have criticized George Lucas's presentation of the Jedi in the prequel trilogy. Criticism of the Jedi is just as justified as criticism of Manwe, but in the same way we have the gift of hindsight and do not have the same level of responsibility as they do. If the Jedi respond to the Sith with violence, deceit, or allow attachments and emotions to overwhelm them, they risk becoming more dark jedi or sith themselves. Darth Sidious in Star Wars approaches his destruction of the Jedi the same way as Melkor deceives the Valor. Both know the other side are bound by rules that they cannot break, yet they can. Yes, the Jedi failed in the prequels and allow the republic to become an evil empire, but if they behaved like the Sith, they would create an even worse Empire than what we see in the Original Trilogy. An empire of thousands of evil force wielders with the power to bend minds, levitate objects, and destroy entire planets. Anakin falls into the trap of using the methods of the Sith in order to destroy them and control his own destiny, but doing so makes him the greatest enemy of the galaxy. In contrast, Luke actually doesn't defeat the Emperor in Return of the Jedi by fighting him. He defeats him by retaining his honor and choosing not to fight. By choosing the path of a true Jedi, the path his father never took, ultimately inspires his father to break the cycle of hate and end the Emperor's tyranny. And Manwe choosing to show mercy to Melkor allows the free peoples of middle earth to ultimately unit with the valor and defeat Morgoth once and for all.
Cheers mate nice analysis
Thank you so much for clearly making clear the responsibilities of Manwe, his own fallibility, the privilege of hindsight that we have, and the danger if Manwe (or other valar) becoming a new and even worse Melkor.
In my own opinion this is perhaps the least flawed ( if flawed can it be called because it has arguments to suggest that it wasn’t as you explained in great detail in this video ) action of Manwe. The one that makes the least sense to me is that Valar always seem to underestimate Melkor
They get driven by him alone from Middle Earth for Eru-knows-how-many-millenias and Tulkas comes and the balance of power shifts in Valars favor. That’s all good but it seems they never learned how mighty their brother was proven when they literally feasted in Almaren hoping perhaps that Melkor somehow went into space never to return? Its of course plausible that Valar would sometimes rest ( although biologically they need none ) but one would at least put some guards when they are in their feasting right?
Okay that’s their first mistake at least understandable to some level but the destruction of the Trees? How in the freaking world they can fall for the same trap again and this time Melkor wasnt even outside of Arda, he wasnt even outside of Aman and yet he still leaves them all with suprised pikachu faces. When you can hear everything and see all in the entire planet in a matter of seconds when your wife is with you and you have uncountable spirits at your side that can be recruited to look after Melkor who themselves can travel whole Valinor in a matter of seconds when they took their garments off, you would need surprisingly poor government abilities to let someone sneak off who himself can only take of his body in pain at this point of time. I dont say that Valar should be flawless or anything but it seems that some of their mistakes are just straight up dumb.
Raising of Pelori is another thing. How does raising a mountain will stop Melkor by any means and it made half the Middle Earth stay in night and darkness. Not to mention how they didn’t attack Melkor earlier. This one is also very interesting given that Manwe found it surprising Melkor fell that low when they later confront him. Was he expecting that Melkor wouldn’t fall this much and fill Middle Earth with wonderful beauties? Again heavy underestimation of Melkors evil. At least they learned from their mistakes but it seems their newly made policies only had an effect on Sauron ( although even that is questionable given that Saruman doesn’t seem fit in his role as an Istar from the very start )
It's interesting, when Tolkien writes these essays defending Manwe's decisions, I hear them as if Tolkien knew about popular fan responses to the Valar. But the _Silmarillion_ hadn't been released! For like twenty years or more Tolkien was wrestling with the same contradictions that his fans would only even have the chance to notice after his death.
Here is the comment i made from another video that talked about Manwe.
Despite your reasons,I still think Manwe is an awful King and Vala
A contrast of what he has vs what has he done:
-won the spiritual and genetic lottery
-was given power over all the Valar
-was given lordship over the entire universe
-was given knowledge of the afterlife of Mankind
VS what has he done
-let Morgoth go free despite being advised not to
-after Feanor told him not to trust Morgoth,he set him free anyway,got his father killed,than after the consequences of his actions demands Feanor to give up the Silmarils
-after Morgoth was free waited millennia before stopping him
-after Morgoth was defeated let Sauron go free because reasons
-after Sauron corrupted Numenor,he failed to smite him Elendil,Isildur and Gil Galad did a better job at defeating him than a divine archangel
-devised a plan so impossible and unachivable for the wizards so much so that got one killed,one traitor and 3 others failed
-i imagine that Gandalf too would have done a better job at defeating Sauron if he had the one ring
As you can see his regime was one of failure after failure,most of Arda s problems could have been completely avoided if he wasnt so terrible at being both a Vala and a king
A lot of these points are covered in the video though. Are you saying that even after watching it you still think Manwe had the authority and right to do everything you suggested there? If so, we read the text very differently.
@@TheRedBook his releasing of Melkor could be forgiven,as you said,it was per his duty and nature to release Melkor to try to repent.
What cant be forgiven is the fact that when Melkor fell again to evil,he waited millennia before stopping him after he corrupted the earth and caused death and destruction on a unimaginable scale.
He did the same again with Sauron,and here he didnt even take him back to Valinor like he did with Melkor as he was supposed to ,he waited again for him to cause destruction rather than act.
Ok wasnt this is the red book channel correct. Or is that just the podcast you sometimes post on your channel. Also did y ou get a new microphone cause the voice is close but sounds different....perhaps because of better quality equipment. But these things the video art clippings and skill are much to similar. Perhaps Im just having some sort of Mandela effect or just mistaken. Lol but great video my man.
Thanks! It's the same channel, I have just renamed it. My username is the same though as you can see with this comment.
❤
The basic conceit of Tolkien's work is that The Silmarillion and other stories of ancient times like the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta are the records or are commentaries based on the records of ancient days, drawn from the teaching of the Elves and recorded by the Humans of Numenor and Gondor and even later by Aelfwine. We only see Manwe and the Valar through that lens. I think the idea that Manwe believed that he had erred in not attacking Melkor before the Awakening of the Firstborn or erred in setting Melkor free after he served his sentence show the influence of Elvish and Human interpreters. I think it more likely that Manwe consulted Eru at every turn and fulfilled his will that is be definition inerrant. As the Hebrew Scriptures put it, God's ways are not our ways, so we do not fully understand God's actions. Manwe acts as the will of Eru directs him, and if that means giving Melkor his freedom to do good or evil, well, as Tolkien put it, even Melkor's discord and evil in the end redoundeth to the good, a good greater than as if discord and evil had never been.
This story is very analogous to the story in the Book Enoch, concerning the angels who sinned and later, in Deuteronomy 32 and the gods of nations. The ainar or Vala are stand ins for angels of sons of God. Manwe' would be very similar to the Chief Prince of the Hose, Michael.
Love the channel. Great video topic but reasoning put forth in this argument isn’t sound. The valar were poor stewards. The didn’t want to deal with melkor after the lamps incident so the build themselves Aman a place where melkor couldn’t ruin the things the built there but leaving the entirety of the world for him to ruin. They let him run unchecked for ages knowing they could do something to cuz what chance with men and elves have against a god let’s say. None. He destroyed the two trees killed feanors father yet they elves are they only who’s act to and seemingly cursed by the doom of Mandos. Numenoreans dare to sail west they sink the entire island killing everyone. The valar can act fast when they want to but it always seems to be against beings that aren’t their own kind. They sit behind their mountain encircled god realm and dont act on anything save for Ulmo. And some valar we do know have the ability of foresight btw.
Eru sank Numenor, not the Valar. But, the arguments put forward in the video are really Tolkien's, not mine. I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning but it's how the man who wrote the Legendarium explained the actions of beings within it. It's just "how it is".
Now explain why God allows so much evil in our world and makes innocents suffer
Easy, Odin allows suffering to get us battle-ready for Ragnarök.
😮💨🤌
"The seeds that the hands sow will grow and multiply though the hand be removed."
This video got me to again wonder why Tuor’s plea to the Valar was necessary. Secondly I wonder, in light of Tolkien’s views on the rules that govern the Valar, what would have happened to Middle Earth if the elves in Aman hadn’t rebelled and followed after Morgoth. Would Morgoth be left to conquer and enslave all of Middle Earth?
This is why I love Middle-earth. It feels more real because it is more deeply mythological.
These are the same challenges we face today. Thank you for the review of honor and trust in good. It was like a splash of cold water to refresh.
Preach.
- take care, slainte chugat
Thank you for addressing this, which is an age-old topic of discussion in the fandom. My own thoughts are these: If Manwë had tried to defeat Melkor by his methods, he would have become a new tyrant in Melkor's place. In this case, in accordance with the third theme that forms the basis of the Music of the Ainur, it would be against the formation of the future of Arda, whose melody (Melkor's) was woven into music and whose fate was thus shaped (this is the reason for his descent to Arda), and therefore against the will of Eru. Here, Manwë was the Vala responsible and authorized to carry out Eru's will, as he was a wise king who understood Eru's mind best and therefore had this insight. The suppression and domination of free will is a dominant theme in Tolkien that forms the basis for the formation of evil. This is why it does not directly influence either Melkor's initiatives or the choices of the Children of Ilúvatar. For this reason, being perceived as presenting a passive image is a wrong evaluation resulting from understanding this theme. It seems unfair to me that Manwë should be judged for acting as he should.
wowza! you're new channel has really taken off, just like your original one! Tbh, i didn't think it would work out for you and it was a sad thing to ponder. It makes my brain and it's insatiable lust for quality LOTR lore videos, sing!
Anyway, just a truly fantastic video once again m8. Thanks for your insightful and conscientious tributes to Tolkien. You do him justice, I think he would also agree.
Thanks! To be honest, this "new channel" is my old one wearing a new face :D . I tried making a totally new channel but it was hard to get it out there so I came crawling back to this one and asked it for forgiveness.
@@TheRedBook Oh shit you right! Lol. That makes sense xD.
Either way, I'm just happy you're still doing your thang. It is obvious you take great care in your craft and I just have to let rare gems like your channel know when they've got something truly appreciated.
Anyway, take care Steven! Cya on the next video!
@@TheRedBook
Good thing I didn't unsubscribe from this channel when you made the new one.
Just kidding! 😂 I had no intention of unsubbing from the best Tolkien Channel on UA-cam.😁👍🏻
Superb as always
I think free will plays into a lot of the decisions Manwë made. In order to show that Eru wasn't whispering in Manwë's ear, he almost had to make mistakes. Eru knew that and "had his back" everytime.
'Such deceit had never been encountered before'. The Discord of Melkor during the Ainulindalë gave a clear example of how Melkor tries to bend all others to his will. I have no issue with how the Valar handled the whole saga, by the way. As you say, their intellects are of a higher power than ours and things can seem obvious in hindsight (although, had they not the power of foresight?). The virtues of the Valar are greater than ours and those who are truly good tend not to be cynical about motives but always look for the goodness in others, no matter their previous transgressions.
I don't really see the Discord as being the same thing. It wasn't about bending their will but more about shielding his own will and motives through blatant lies and falsehoods. The Music had him there for all to see in his challenge of Eru but his lies to Manwe seem more insidious.
@@TheRedBook yes but Manwë surely had an inkling of Melkor's secretive ways when he went often to the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame 😁 Anyway, excellent analysis.
New mic? If so, it’s pretty good! Thanks for the awesome videos!
I've used this one for a long time but the audio recording gets worked on by an actual pro now and not me :D
An excellent essay! I cannot believe you felt such a need to preface it with so much self doubt. Really, really great comments on good and evil and honour and deceit. Thank you!
Thank you :) . Don't get me wrong, it's not really self doubt, it's more of a disclaimer for those who conflate my analysis of the Legendarium with my own beliefs. It seems to happen every time I discuss Eru or the Valar!
@@TheRedBook
That means you need more videos on Eru Ilúvatar and the Valar. Please.🙏🏻😃
@@TheRedBook Discussions of Tolkienian theology are *_serious business,_* of course. Eru is literally God, so if we criticize Eru or His Valar servants, we're exposing ourselves as Satanically inclined. I'm glad you chose the pro-Manwe side, otherwise I would have had to renounce your channel, and all your videos, and all your pomps.
@@coreyander286 - I struggle enough in the real world to know when people are being serious or not. Sounds like you are about to anoint me with the oil of exorcism...
@@coreyander286Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as all that; for all the respect I have for the Legendarium it is ultimately subcreation, not exactly the Faith. But I agree that many of the complaints against Eru come from a very similar place as anger against the Christian God does.
Another excellent essay on the role of a specific set characters. Albeit a strongly significant pair and they're roll within the Ainulindalë. I heard some writing of JRRT that I've never read or considered in such the wider sense of the literary works. Thank you and keep up the great work!
Great video essay! It made me reconsider what Tolkien meant by the word, "daunt." I associate that with intimidation through sheer force of personality. Perhaps it also included utter bewilderment. While I assume that the Valar knew that Melkor would in some way oppose them in Arda, they had no way to know what form that opposition would take. Perhaps they joined a battle believing they were entering an Art contest for who could make the best Arda. Instead they were assaulted and their works destroyed. Sounds bewildering and daunting to me.
Misjudgement of Manwe is not only common among the fandom it is also an epidemic amongst the villains/anti-heroes of the Legendarium. Sauron, Saruman, Feanor, Maedhros, and Maglor immediately come to mind. All of these traitorous murderers were invited to come before the Elder King to sue for pardon, but because they judge Manwe with the scales and measures of their own darkened hearts and so they dread the one who wants to show them mercy and set them on a path to redemption. I don't doubt that Manwe could phone Home and get some guidance on a way to resolve Feanor's Oath in both a just and merciful way, but that was never meant to be as the sunken cost of evil acts and clouded misjudgement drag them further and further down into the darkness of their own making.
For the algorithm
I think the Valar are very flawed in Tolkien’s world. I can understand that they struggle with the concept of evil and therefore can be deceived by it, but Tulkas was not deceived. Their war for the elves was just, but they left men, with no guidance or defence. They also blame people for the sins of their fathers. They sent Saruman, who clearly was not suitable for the task ahead to go as the leader of their messengers. To err is not stupid, but making the same mistakes repeatedly is. The Valar are as flawed as any race in middle-earth.
I can understand Melkor, but why did the Valar allow Sauron to have his way with Middle-Earth. Even Eru, the most absentee amongst the named characters, has to personally intervene three times against Sauron's efforts (Numenor, Gandalf, tripping Gollum) due to the Valar's lassitude regarding him, something he didn't need to do even once against Morgoth.
The best they could do was send the Istari, whom were all almost completely unsuccessful (if not for easier stated intervention)
I disagree with the 3rd one being "direct" but that's a conversation for another day.
But the Valar clearly didn't just let Sauron have his way. They weren't going to assault Middle-earth in an attempt to avoid past mistakes in doing so. Men were going to defeat this evil but not without the aid. The Istari eventually succeeded through Gandalf. Eru clearly agreed with the plan of the Valar in sending the Istari as He "took up" their plan when Gandafl died and enlarged it. Sending Gandalf back to complete the task. His power and wisdom said to be "much greater" (Letter 156). In the end, Men overcome the evil of Sauron and inherit their stewardship as Elves leave Middle-earth. It wouldn't have worked out like that had the Valar just glided over to Middle-earth to tear down Barad-dur. I guess it's down to accepting that their was a greater plan at work over immediately ending suffering, which is a problem for religious folks to explain!
@@TheRedBook I suppose, to be fair, the prolonged suffering of the peoples of Middle-Earth isn't as egregious as it might be in the real world since they had a fate beyond death which the valar, although unknowing of the specifics, were always aware of. To them, a temporary suffering might not have had a completely different interpretation, which would also explain their particular care towards the elves who were bound to Arda permanently.
I always liked Manwe, and I feel like people are too hard on him. Lots of people think they have all the answers and could totally run the world better than God, and the kind of stuff you hear about Manwe and Eru often echoes that.
Okay, then why did Eru the Allknowing not give a flying EFF about ANYTHING ongoing, besides Numenor? Not a God I'd find too pleasant to follow. Some lazy bum God.
HINDSIGHT? The evil of Melkor went on for thousand or more years in Beleriand? How many dead and destroyed realms do you NEED to see "Oh heck, this man must be stopped"? Not speaking against you, but I find this one of the unacceptable concepts in Tolkien's world I otherwise love.
You're just describing God and the Problem of Evil. Not my problem to explain that.
Manwë is not "all-knowing." Only Eru Ilúvatar is all-knowing.
Melkor was in Beleriand for less than 600 years, 400 of which he was held in check by the Siege of Angband.
Thank you for the podcast. It was so well done and thoughtful.
Finally a Video about me❤
I only have about 10% of my videos about Morgoth! ;)
The star of the video was Manwë, though.😅
I like the new channel logo. 👌
Great video as always! You're still the very best Tolkien UA-camr by far!
By far, agreed.
Loved the video! I understand the world of Tolkien a little better now :)
Thank you, Steven, for another excellent video that forces us to rethink what we thought about the Legendarium.
I have to admit, I was one of many of those who blamed the Valar for most of the problems in Arda, but after watching this video, I have to apologize to Manwë and the other Valar for judging them without having had enough information. 😞
Gee John you flipped 😂 And rightly so
Great video!
It is also worth noting that the moment the Valar found out about the deception of Melkor (at Fëanor's trial) Tulkas hastens out to seize him. He wouldn't do that without the approval of Manwe.
Probably to bring him back to Manwe for further judgement after having clearly gone against his false promises and lies of rehabilitation. Just like what I say in the video, he has to be given the chance to prove what he says is true, and his deception here shows he lied. So, Tulkas would be allowed to drag him back if he is still around :D
@TheRedBook yeah exactly. It's like he was on a kind of parole. And Tulkas was his parole officer just waiting and fisting his hand lol
I'm 5 mins in and looking forward to what you have to say but it's kinda weird to me people don't understand it. Eru forms the third song around Melkor's dissonance, his evil is every bit as intrinsic to Arda as anything else created by Illuvatar.
Seemed pretty self explanatory that Manwe and the other Valar would be bound by Eru's design to allow Melkor's evil as part of the song. The Elves and Men had to face Melkor without the assistance of the Valar, they had to suffer, and to die, and to learn all the lessons that can only be learned through loss and misery, pride and downfalls, desperation and perseverance, and fighting for hope when there is nothing else left to fight for.
Melkor is part of the song, and we mortals din't have a long enough view to see the ebb and flow of the music and what parts the dissonance plays in the whole. We only exist for a few brief chords out of a symphony.
I suppose if everyone understood all aspects of the Legendarium we'd have nothing to discuss. I'm not really surprised that a lot of people don't understand the Valar that much as I'm guessing many people may not have read certain texts. If you just quickly explain who the Valar are and that they exist it will lead to the obvious "Why didn't they do this?" line of questioning. I suppose this video is just my attempt to bring some lesser known texts to light that will help :)
@@TheRedBook honestly it never occurred to me that someone would be interested in the Valar enough to want to discuss their possible motivations without knowing the story of the songs of creation. Always figured it was one of those things normies gloss over and anyone geeky enough to care dives headfirst into. Casuals discussing Valar before knowing their origin story never crossed my mind, it should have. Guess I found another of my geek blind spots. lol
Another thing which many people do not understand at all: Manwe can directly communicate with Eru Illuvatar; and no other being in Arda can do this. The power to directly communicate with God is mentioned in the holy books of our worlds: the prophets Moses, Jesus and Muhammed speaking to God or were spoken to by God.
This could mean that Manwe is a chosen one or a prophet of Eru in Tolkien's legendarium. It could explain why Manwe was so virtuous and was described in the Silmarillion as having no knowledge of evil. The ability of Manwe to directly converse with Eru is the greatest power on Arda and explains why Manwe took various decisions which baffle us mortals: such as deciding to free Melkor and pardon him after Melkor served a lengthy period of imprisonment.
Tolkien being a flawed man has created a flawed story, all of his characters have major flaws including Eru Iluvatar....Tolkien spent way too much time working on the silmarillion and then ultimately it was finished by his son.... It's an incomplete work at Best.... That being said.... If you look at the characters ultimately Eru Illuvater is at fault and caused the initial problem with his son Melkor, in my opinion ultimately Melkor was created first and with all of the others powers but why else would he be given power 10x greater than the others.... Essentially he was in my opinion the crown Prince WHY ELSE would he have been given that much extra power.... And in my mind it was simplistic he was being primed to be the secondary.... However his father in my opinion betrayed him by giving him free will to play as he wished within the music.... And then he gets angry in the end and shames him angrily.... Causing anger, hurt, humiliation, shame....So Father Eru in my opinion was being hypocritical to his greatest son.... The reason why he wanted to create was because he was like his father....Aule and Yavanna just like their brother had great desire to create and they have their wishes granted however Melkor was not....Eru Iluvatar should have taken his son aside and had some form of communication but he did not.... He should have given him the ability to create instead of frustrating him... He gave him 10 times the power of the others but yet but he was denied to create and he was denied kingship....so Eru basically FCKED with his Sons head and he is the originator of the evil that started.... Because everything that Melkor did was in defiance of his father and having felt shame anger hurt pain all that stuff caused by his dad then of course he's going to feel like an outcast....
The rest of the Valar especially Manwe, Aule, Mandos, Varda, Tulkas in my opinion were a bunch of kiss asses the others not so much including the one that was single like Melkor the one that was always weeping, Ulmo clearly it was not a yes man or a kiss butt....the Valar definitely screwed up with the elves, they also screwed up with Feanor, they screwed up putting Melkor in Prison, they were 2 weak to deal with the Numenor threat, and had totally abandoned Middle Earth except for the wizards which in my opinion was a ridiculous way to Counter Sauron....
I enjoy the Silmarrion whatever time I become more and more critical can I see more and more flaws in the writing and the characters themselves....
Unlike most people I see Eru as the problem...I see Morgoth as a child acting out in rebellion... So instead of helping his child he lets him do whatever, and then imprisoned him, then he's let out again to do is he wishes and then he's in prison again....Eru makes NO EFFORT to redeem his son... I can't think of a greater sin than the father would commit against his child....
Actually I feel deep Pitty for Melkor and by the way he didn't become fake and false until after his imprisonment.... So the imprisonment just made him more in pain and more frustrated and more determined just like in real life prisons make prisoners 100 times worse.... Can I watch criminal in prisoner shows all the time and I've met so many ex-cons in my life that said the same thing....
So yea, Manwe was the teacher's pet....the Yesman.
Melkor hit piece, no one ever tells the story from the Elder Kings perspective. Melkor was first and lone companion Eru, they made music for ages uncounted. When the others were created, they combined, had power equal to Melkor. They were given but small parts of the mind of Eru, but Melkor shared ALL Eru's thoughts. I don't blame him in the slightest for wanting fuck shit up...
Steven, could you do a video on how free will interacts with the dichotomy of good vs evil in the Legendarium?🙏🏻😁
Good characters sometimes make evil choices with their free will, and it doesn't seem to work the other way with evil characters making good/righteous decisions. So how does this all of this work together?🙏🏻😁
I's been ages since I've been back here. Great content as usual. Also have to give you props for the artwork and editing in this vid: top notch 👍
Niavete is goodness coupled with ignorance.
Innocence is goodness with the full awareness of evil, yet choosing the good.
Epic content🍿
Vicegerent. Learned a new word!
If Manwe was not of a mind to forgive, Osse might have gone the same path as Sauron, having followed Melkor's prompting early on before his wife calmed him down...to an extent. Middle Earth would thus have been far more terrible.
If Boromir was not allowed the opportunity for repentance, he would have died without peace.
It's a perilous thing to say one should not be forgiven according to our judgement, as we can't say when we will be in a position to need mercy, be it from God or from our neighbors.
Well said and good examples.
The way I see it, religion/mythology is and has always been an attempt to explain why things are the way they are, and Tolkien's writings are no exception. So, if there are supremely powerful beings behind it all, there has to be some attempt to hide their actions from mortal beings, because we, in the real world, don't see these actions directly. There is probably no good reason why Manwe and the Valar don't use all their power to do what they have to do, but the story always has to find a reason why they can't, for the sake of the story following this narrative of the gods' actions always being hidden.
Did you watch the video? I think there's a couple of good reasons mentioned.