On the one hand i wish the manse was bigger to get more of those vibes. On the other, i remember i hate horror and thank the lord it was short and sweet 😅
I love the theory that they’re Marika’s parents, esp with the line about Miquella’s line being “mired in madness” - a “mire” is a swamp, which lends another shade to that statement - perhaps it’s more literal than we assumed and his line was literally from the mad swamp!
For your sight/blindness video, I recently learned that in Japanese folklore, those with only one eye are thought to have an easier time communing with the divine.
Could you maybe elaborate on that just a little? Just enough so I can look up this stuff myself, because sadly I have no idea what you're referencing with this.
@@entroponeticsOoh, I think that tracks with Frozen Eleum Lloyce from Dark Souls 2. You need to find the eye of a priestess, which has been passed down among the city's priestesses, in order to dispel the illusion that makes the boss invisible.
@@entroponetics Can you provide a specific source, because in my short google investigations most of the results were lackluster. However in that same google search i found a reddit thread which talked about japanese folklore in relation to pop-culture and manga and stuff and one of the commenters pointed out the Buddhist daruma dolls. Basically good luck charms. The Wikipedia article reads: "The eyes of Daruma are often blank when sold. Monte A. Greer, author of Daruma Eyes, described the "oversized symmetrical round blank white eyes" as a means to keep track of goals or big tasks and motivate them to work to the finish. The recipient of the doll fills in one eye upon setting the goal, then the other upon fulfilling it. In this way, every time they see the one-eyed Daruma, they recall the goal." Both Melina and Messmer have a sworn duty to Marika, and Ranni is very determined in her goal.
10:29 My immediate thought was a cage or chamber, now melted to scrap by the Three Fingers Midra had tried to contain in order to study. The room itself is called the 'Discussion Chamber', which reminds me of Gideon's exchange with the Two Fingers; Midra likely had the Three Fingers contained (so he thought) in the chamber to commune with them, discuss with, as Gideon did.
I don't think Shabriri is the only emanation of the Frenzied Flame, he's just full of himself (and probably the individual responsible for the genocide of the nomads). If Shabriri is Nanaya, then he is also Hyetta, whose body belonged to Irina. I think Nanaya is simply a third "individual" in this collection of personalities returned to spread chaos.
Wild theory, I think the Ruins of Unte were once in the Hinterlands where we find the massive unnatural-looking crater kinda awkwardly positioned. We find an incantation in the ruins that is associated with the inquisition. I speculate maybe it was an occupying Hornsent settlement near Shaman village that Marika basically ejected from the Hinterlands, something that would certainly be of great offense to her. Of course, the further evidence to this are the flowers. I also find it interesting that the Abyssal Woods are downstream from the Shadow Keep, can't help but feel that has thematic significance.
@@kitetales This is what i think happened with the abyssal woods, all the suffering from bonny village soiled the land and into the wood below. That brought the attention of certain beings sniffing for madness. You see my theory is the shaman were Numen trying to harness gold for all the societies, so that purified their meat but also gave them a connection to gold. Thought the game series the dark and fire can spread like a disease or Eldritch like monstrous being/end. it only makes sense in a land where the most southern tip is mired in black/white shadow skies, to the north golden green to clear skies, the origins of twisted inversions begin here with both elements. And this conflict is the war of gold and shadow, just like the giants and dragons with ice/fire. The rune Ark represents the awakened eye at the beginning of the golden dawn, when God first opens their eye, through the cracks of millisecond creation. There was gold, then...the most intense happening of all of existence, singularity. Whats terrifying is that Goldmask is not only a inversion of Midra, but at the end of the solar cycle the process of creation is repeated, super nova. "I am Alpha and Omega, both the beginning and end of time, if grace is the road toward totality, i am its zenith" When we look at runes and eyes, the more experience one endures and conditions (as witness by the numen first coming as deathweavers, turned into loving hippies), the more we accelerate change and growth toward that thing. The greater the experience one endures the greater the rune/soul, and from that the highest concentration the eyes become red then ripen... idk. its all complicated LOL. Thank you for enduring my opinion..
The manse being downstream from the keep is an interesting observation. Since we know the flame can be spread the same way as a disease, you could almost argue the water from the keep carried all the horrors and violence from the events there and deposited them in the abyssal woods.
The roads to shadow keep being deeply dug and very wet with water.. along with Shadow Keep apparently having an ability to keep itself filled with water as a defense and also be able to purge itself of water makes me feel like this is a defensive purpose of the tower and runs a long way thru these deep river bed like paths.
I think the supressing tower is supposed to rest in the center of the perfectly spaced divine towers. If you put it there, I think two of the divine towers overlap big holes, one lining up with the whole in the Hinterlands and the other being the Fissure. Could be wrong, but think Marika "hid" the shadow lands but intensionally left the divine towers, as they probably still had utility that she wished to remain accessible. And it also leaves a second (not draining into the earth) lake for the plural Luirnia of The Lakes, and makes the Cerulean coast, a coast if your fine with big lakes having coasts. Though, I think the game is trying to tell us that the Shadow Lands were mapped after being "displaced." Perhaps in preparation for the genocide.
Great video as always KiteTales! I really like how you used the metaphor of ripening to describe what is happening with Midra's frenzy. It nicely invokes the grapes of -wrath- frenzy we see with both Shabriri's grapes and the flora and fauna of the abyssal woods. Also my favorite fight aside from Bayle
I enjoy how the Frenzied Flame can be considered quite a few things but at its core it is entropy manifested through suffering, the desire for the end. It’s interesting that their eyes melt, most of them are typically looking up at the sky, clenching their faces and eye sockets, as if they stared at the sun too long.
9:30 oooo I don't know where I heard this but the Fingers are probably most akin to Fungi. I'm pretty sure because of Finger Mimics (hallucinatory mushrooms, design based on the Dead Mens Fingers), the theory is that the definition of "Mimic" is actually "Asexually reproduced offspring". EDIT: It was Ziostorms video. The theory has to do a lot with Fungi's role as nature's messengers. And partially because the Two-Fingers introduced God to The Lands Between, which is an allegory to psychedelic mushrooms and how it's theorized they're organisms sent by some force to give us enlightenment.
A personal theory of mine regarding the Frenzy lore in this DLC is that it's heavily tied to Metyr and her lore. In Metyr's tail staff that you get from her remembrance it says that the Greater Will abandoned her. Several of the fingers in the finger ruins as well as in her boss room seem burned or have eerily similar design to The Three Fingers. There's also the hidden finger eggs in Midra's Manse which to me feels like a purposeful decision to put those there hidden behind his and Nanaya's portrait. I believe that The Abyss Woods was a form of ground zero that ended up being touched by the Frenzy Flame. Which could've been due to Shabriri. Then Metyr somehow got infected by the Frenzy Flame and gave birth to the 3 Fingers, and by doing so became defective then because of that was abandoned by the Greater Will. The one thing I'm kinda hazy on is who's spine is being cradled by Nanaya. Before the DLC I believed she was a Deathbed Companion 100%. After the DLC I believe she was an original finger maiden for the 3 fingers. The easy answer is that the spine was Shabriri's and that he failed to become the Lord of Frenzy Flame, but even then I'm not too sure. While I know this video isn't about Metyr I had to discuss my personal head cannon of where the 3 Fingers came from. Unlike the 2 Fingers there's only 1 set of 3 Fingers. Plus with Metyr being damaged I personally think the 2 things are related along with the other context clues I listed above. Yeah though really fun video! I absolutely love Midra as well as the entire Abyss Woods area. I wish there were more enemies there as well as the Manse being bigger, but I still love it all regardless.
Love the Rat plague theory - might link to Ailing Village in Weeping where there is a giant Frenzy Rat & several small rats. As always, amazing lore vid - keep up the great work!
10:35 If I had to guess, they kind of just seem like rebar. The all-knowing Wikipedia says that iron rods have been used in construction and masonry since antiquity, and while I'm not sure why they'd just be sticking out of the floor in the open like that, it does somewhat give the impression of a partly-finished location, perhaps used as temporary storage for... something.
@kitetales I would hazard more along the lines of the room being built, then construction here halted and it being used to store something else instead. It doesn't seem like anything broke out too violently, but the hay on the floor might imply that something living was being kept there. Perhaps it was a padding so that whatever made those burned fingerprints wouldn't burn the floor all the the time
The fingerprints in the boss room are something I never noticed, and very cool. Something I can't get over about the Three Fingers, and how I end up seeing them, is how compassionate, how personable, they seem to be to their followers, compared to any other fingers we meet. The way the game links the Warming Stone and the Frenzyflame Stone seems to further this feeling. I kind of think that the Three Fingers are not *essentially* the vessel for the Frenzied Flame, but only conditionally. I think, rather, that the Three Fingers are the only fingers trying to hear out and enact the wish of mankind, and Shabriri was the man that got to them first. But if Midra and his followers worshipped a pre-Frenzy Three Fingers, and were forced to watch in horror as it became the conduit for a plague of the human condition, I think it would explain a lot about both how it got out of control, and why they've stuck with it in spite of everything.
Once again establishing why you’re the Queen of the lore in this space! Absolute masterpiece! I love how effortless this is for you lol extraordinary and quite compelling.💜☕️🫖
Yes. There's absolutely no shot Nanaya didn't deliberately invite Frenzied Flame onto the Manse/Sanctum. Between the eerie painting and her personally owning a torch of another failed Frenzied Lord from a different land (which is important since the Hornsent literally quarantined the area. meaning she got it from somewhere else before that), Nanaya 100% used Midra in hopes of creating a new lord. My question is, why?
@@TheTegas Unfortunately, that doesn't track. The item description states it's the spine of a "man" and a failed lord from a "distant land". Also, the torch is actually quite long, meaning it likely belonged to an adult or at least a late teen. It's also noted that Nanaya herself was stated to have come from somewhere else and seduced Midra, which leads credence to the idea that she personally brought the Torch from elsewhere to the Manse (Kinda like how it's theorized she may have brought the Finger Ruins and eggs that are hidden in the Manse, suggesting that she may have invited the Three Fingers personally, which we do see a sign of them being there). Unless this is some big translation error, I don't see this being their child as Nanaya would've likely had her child at the Manse and considering the lack of photos, it seems like the child died young. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Nanaya killed or experimented on the child though (whether to do something with Frenzy physically or to simply make Midra suffer more), but I don't think it's the torch despite being a pretty twisted revelation.
@@JohnDWJ True, but that's a pretty easy answer and I'm thinking of something more interesting considering she is seemingly one of the first Frenzied Flame worshippers (at least she predates the Lands Between)... Being the first Three Finger Maiden (Considering her obvious reverence for the Frenzied Flame, her being the first Three Finger Maiden sorta like how Hyetta is would track), being possessed by Shabriri if not being the first Shabriri (Considering the creepy smirk as Midra looks terrified/depressed next to her and the deliberately dark eyes with the shadows cast over them, this being a subtle visual hint that she's Shabriri by referencing the Woe talisman would not surprise me), or perhaps even being a Living Saint like Marika but was chosen by the Frenzied Flame Outer God instead of the Greater Will (Possibly even explaining why Midra was even given the title of Sage, a Manse, and even an entire area as his Sanctum despite not being Hornsent. We know Hornsent personally see themselves as divine and straight up disregard the lives of others races, so giving a non-Hornsent like Midra such power shows a pretty hefty sign of respect IMO).
I am suprised no one has linked that Midra is a shadow to Goldmask. The very similar corpselike body structure. The fact that Goldmasks mask has a similar look and style to the lord of frenzied flame. The tattered robes they both wear Maybe goldmask looks similar to midra in the painting without the mask.
Hello! Long time viewer, first time commenter here. I think your thoughtful insight into the lore of these games is unparalleled, I just love the way you pull things apart and look at them from all angles before drawing conclusions that then seem so incredibly obvious when you lay them out - but wouldn't have occured to most people at all! I'd really love to see you do a video on the implications of the location of the Land of Shadow. The Suppressing Pillar says that it's the very centre of The Lands Between, and I think this is really important. This means that The Land of Shadow was once in the middle of the main map, with Altus Plateau to the north, Limgrave to the south and Liurnia to the west.This implies a two really important things straight off - firstly that "Scadu Altus" was once a a part of The Altus Plateau before it was veiled in shadow, and given the location of the Scadu Tree (just north of the land mass), it was mostly likely in the exact same space as the Erdtree. To me this indicates that the Scadu Tree was once the Great Tree, but now that the Land of Shadow is cut off from the rest of The Lands Between, it's dying and has become the Scadu Tree instead, with Marika's Edtree growing in its place (as seen in the Deeproot Depths). I think this connects to a lot of assumptions about the hornsent and the crucible. The other thing I think is implied by this locaiton is that to the far east of the Land of Shadow is a great mountain peak wreathed in fire and storms and inhabited only by dragons: did Farum Azula once rest atop this peak? When Marika veiled The Land of Shadow and cut it off from the rest of The Lands Between, was Farum Azula left adrift to be destroyed by the storm? I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of this, I have no doubt you'd shed even more light on it all with your detailed research. Thanks!
Thank you so much for your kind words! I’ve had a document that I’ve been putting all kinds of little things as I come across them for the Scadutree and the Erdtree and I am absolutely putting your comment in there to take a look at. The Suppressing Pillar is definitely a huge clue. Thanks so much for sharing your great insight on this!! I’ll definitely be getting something out about it!
Ive only seen one other video of yours but im now convinced your one of my top at giving souls lore. Your voice keeps me engaged unlike those like vaati and miss chalice. So im not drifting off to sleep, or my mind keeps wandering haha and i think you do a good job at giving what we know and opening new ideas that you can interpret them. Keep up the videos. Feel a little sad im late to a lot of these discussions now
Wow thank you so much for such high praise!! I really appreciate that feedback as well, it’s been nice to just speak more conversationally than performative so I’m really happy it’s a good style!! 🥲❤️
My theory is that The frenzy flame is a reference to the 18 century enlightenment. Let me explain: In elden ring those who cover their eyes do that because they have faith that they don’t need to see the path. That is literally blind faith, but the frenzy flame do the opposite. The followers of the frenzy flame are blind people that are trying to see. They are no longer put their faith in the gods, but in something else. You might say “the frenzy flame is a outer god” “is still faith”. However the flame behaves more like a tool than a god. Their followers don’t do worship the flame in the same way the horns did with the cruxible or the golden order do with the two fingers. They have a cause and will use the power of the flames to achieve it. Now about the enlightenment, in the end of the 17th century humanity tried to explain the nature base on logic and not god. If you read the authors ( Voltaire, Sade, Rosseuau and etc) of that period they are focus on material reality of things. Midra is a sage, maybe a philosopher he could have discovered the flame not by a external force, but by logic and reflection. Another why of explain the word. That might have been considered dangerous because was bad for the dogmatic faith of the horns. Also enlightenment can literally be described as what happened with the lord of the frenzy flame. That can be a reference of buddhism. Since a big part of buddhism is the end of the suffering, exactly what happened with Midra when he became the lord
The Frenzied Flame induces insanity and the Inquisitors are aware that it melts both body and soul, so they were in the right to seal the Abyssal Woods and we also see it in action in the Frenzied Flame ending. Midra is a sage and possibly have priestly role of sorts because of the manse, so his knowledge would pertain to both physical and spiritual matters in his time. With those in mind, the comparison between the Frenzied Flame and the Enlightenment would be more of a warning towards the players, if anything. What happened during that time before Napoleon arrived was insanity unleashed.
The hornsent opposed the Frenzy flame because it melted away even spirits which the Hornsent venerated. Spirits and sprites for the Hornsent were ways of communicating and unearthing the past of the world to better understand. As seen in the Ruins of Rauh and the revered spirit ash description. The withered corpses we gather the ashes from are called tutelary deities, acting as patrons and teachers for the Hornsent society. Spirits are eternal but the flame of frenzy burned them away regardless. ( As the ''Surging frenzied flame'' item description reads). Also the Frenzied flame is not so much of faith or enlightenment. It just burns everything away. All sins, and curses and afflictions, but also all love, beauty, goodness and so on. It's not really death either, because death doesn't seem to be the end for a lot of things in the lands between. But i get your reference and intersting point of view regardless. I recommend checking out Hawkshaw's video on Midra and the Frenzied flame. Its really informative.
@@97alexk I get what you’re saying. Although I think that enlightenment doesn’t necessarily is a good in the world of elden ring. Like in Lovecraft stories when people get mad not because they are incapable of reason, but because they know more that they should, they comprehend the world better and that is true madness for the human mind. The flame can consume sins, love and curses because they don’t matter when you have no attachment. Enlightenment can be see that way, at least in a cosmic horror history like the one of Midra.
@@anonimojones4164 Ahh i see! Now that you put it that way i get what you mean. Especially the ''they know more than they should'' and that madness comes from realizing the nature of the world, thus being unable to bare that truth. It reminds me of a pretty famous Nietzsche quote which you have perhaps have heard of which roughly goes: ''The character of a person is determined on how much truth he can bare''. Which is kinda interesting because Midra was a scholar and a philosopher. A well read person. A sage. So indeed he probably had to encounter many truths about the world and himself, which makes an invitation to the frenzied flame even more so easier if that is how madness latches on. So Madness comes first and then frenzied flame is sure to follow? Sounds a bit like frenzied flame is nihilism visualized. It destroys everything.
I do like all these theories. But I really just want to believe that she was someone who genuinely fell in love with Midra and when she heard rumours that he’d inherited the Frenzied Flame, she didn’t want to believe it but at some point, could no longer bear the idea and simply killed herself. Though, something interesting, her dead body was slumped over and for some reason, has no rotting despite being implied to have been dead for quite a while. She may have lived in the Manse for a long time and simply avoided being noticed by the Inquisitors. She may have killed herself from no longer wishing to live with the pain of knowing her love was in such agony and killed herself.
The fact that the diary page talking about parrying the untouchables is found in the manse definitely indicates that at least 1 untouchable was around before inquisitors came. It is unclear if the untouchables are a result of research done at the manse or if they were around first, but it would definitely make sense if the untouchable being around was the reason for this area being forbidden.
Another thing about Nanaya’s location is she’s not only isolated from the violence, but she’s also on a balcony looking down on everything. Kind of leads to the idea that she’s the one who led the inquisition on the manse. Really wish we got more lore on the inquisitors themselves. But the only thing I’ve seen so far is from their ashes. Im paraphrasing but it mentions something along the lines of the inquisitors being the oldest hornsent, and their methods weren’t supported by the younger generations. Pretty messed up if your own people think you’re going too far
10:20 it definitely fits the size of the Three Fingers! Also maybe I'm seeing what I want to see, but it does kind of resemble a closed-fist if you view the 'wrist' on the left-most side, in the same way the Three Fingers close around the Tarnished in the cutscene before disappearing.
Great video and didn’t think I would get mention. I like the theory that this is where the three finger was born. When you show Midra back, I notice that it looks in a way like the three finger marks but more smaller. So with the metal blades or pieces in the boss room. Is it possible the baby three finger touch Midra and burn him with madness which started this series of events. Midra cage it up in fear. Then it grew bigger and escape at some point. The missing head and plugging it up also seems like a point to either stopping anyone from being a lord of madness or creating more of those winters lanterns. Missing eyes let one glaze into madness. Missing head let one become madness.
The description of the horned warrior chest piece mentioned that the yellow cloth was reminiscent of a hero from older times and thought it was hinting at Midra being that hero. Looking back the hero probably wasn’t Midra but I like the idea that the hero was some ancestor of Midra. Either that or maybe I’m just overthinking things.
What if the spine is shabriris, or the spine of a child he lost? Originally, I thought the spine was midras, but you can see the mangled spine in midras body after he stands up and transforms. The frenzied flame gains power from suffering, this is why Narayan told him to endure. Over time he will have suffered enough to become a lord. Notice how in there portrait she is the only one smiling
My theory is that it's her and midras baby, that they tried to make a true Lord from someone who holds the flame of frenzy, it could be a Lord of a distant land by being the heir of said land. It'd explain why it's tiny and cradled
@kaiwatson7923 so nanaya is controlled by shabriri, the spine could be his own that he kept around while using her. Not sure about the baby, but it could be an attempt to give birth to the lord which failed, so Shabriri had midra tortured Instead
@kaiwatson7923 notice how she's the only one smiling in the portrait and wasn't tortured like the rest. Her smile is the same as the shabriri talisman, and she told him to endure the pain knowing he'll turn. Her body was abandoned when he never succumbed Also there are giant severed fingers behind the portrait. If midra made the 3 fingers, this would give the hornsent a good reason to execute midra (which nanaya told them about). This is also why metyr was abandoned
19:19 I can‘t believe nobody seems to know this: Untouchables are a social class / caste in japan. The caste was officially abolished as part of the treatise that ended WW2, but it still exists today. Untouchables are considered filthy because historically they worked with excrements. As a result, they are still disadvantaged to this day. Midra used to be a lord and sage, part of the Hornsent clergy. His „crime“ is touching an Untouchable. Everything else is a consequence of that. Everyone and their „Shabriri is evil“ theories keeps ignoring that Elden Ring is a social commentary at its core. The Frenzied Flame is an understanding for the plight of the downtrodden. At its core is empathy/sympathy, which we know the Hornsent considered a vice. Midra came in contact with an Untouchable, maybe a beggar of sorts. From this experience, he learned to see the lower class as people and began to see their suffering. He questioned his faith and the state/religion as a result. Because touching an Untouchable is a social taboo, he was stripped of his rank, his disciples were executed (in a notably japanese manner) and his santuary (the mansion and the entire forest) were burned down by the inquisitors. His beloved mistress asked him to endure, which he eventually could no more. In failing to endure, he failed to become the saviour of the people (we already know that the Lord of Frenzy needs to endure the pain and anguish of literally everything in existence). Elden Ring is about history, ideology and society. The „shadow of the erdtree“ is literally the „dark side of history“. Thats why the DLC is about the cycle of violence and those left in the wake of war, rather than about glory and legends. History is written by the victors, but now we learn what they wanted to hide. The Three Fingers is what you get when you combine „God is all-powerful“, „God is all-knowing“ and „God is good“ with „there is suffering“. You get „God is impotent and evil“. And then you study your believes the way Midra studied the Finger Ruins and you notice „wait a minute - God doesn’t exist - we were fucked from the start“. This has been the writing on the wall for a while, but its gotten blatantly reinforced with the DLC.
The description of the Madding Hand states they are the weapons of the utterly downtrodden who were hunted as heretics by their own brethren. “Utterly downtrodden” definitely fits the ‘untouchables’ theme, but it makes me think the sages of the manse became those aging untouchables. Which brings into question the timing of the note about touching one. It also makes clear that the hornsent were late to the party. The frenzied flame had already spread enough for the creation of such a fist weapon to be made in response to their arrival.
@@zephyruspring „A glove stitched together from the flayed skin of the victims of a butcherous bloodbath.“ and „Forged of an unyielding, black impulse toward revenge fostered in those who were hunted down as heretics by their own brethren, these are the weapons of the utterly downtrodden.“ actually makes me think the Madding Hand was made in response to the Inquisitors‘ arrival. Their execution of Sage Midra‘s disciples in front of the mansion is the only notion of a bloodbath that we get. In this interpretation, the diary note about touching the Untouchable also wouldn‘t be out of place. I think if something had already happened to the sages, or if the Inquisitors had been late, then not just the note but also the ghost complaining/crying in the mansion would fall out of place - which doesn‘t make sense, since the ghosts aren‘t „aware“ enough to lie. I always rather belief all text and speech in the game forthright. If we start questioning if any of it might be a lie or otherwise intentionally misinforming … then the entire idea of trying to decipher the game becomes a fools errant. In my view, the game makes sure to show us clear contradictions when we are supposed to question the validity of a claim or motive. Since the note and the Madding Hand can be interpreted without a continuity break, I don‘t think that is the case here.
@@mayhemivory5730 What I meant when I said the inquisitors were "late to the party" was that the frenzy had already spread. This glove has clearly been made with eyes of frenzy and so the ones being persecuted were likely already infected. The inquisitors showed up and did their torturing, and the remnants made this fist weapon out of the flayed skin of their comrades. Is it possible for this flayed skin to generate frenzy eyes on it after being flayed? I find that hard to believe. There must have been a collection of frenzy eyes to plant into this weapon. Whether they came directly with the flayed skin or if they were added to the glove later is hard to determine. It's possible that they harvested the eyes from the winter-lantern flies but that would imply that at least one untouchable was already there. In summary, I believe the untouchables showed up after the inquisition had finished it's business. They would have had to get past them to get to the manse after all. We do find some inquisitors infected with frenzy near the manse, and these may be the ones the madding hand was used on. It's also possible that the inquisitors became the untouchables after being attacked by the madding hand in a reversal of circumstances. As for the note, I've always believed that it was written by a nobody adventurer. We are not the first to enter Midra's manse since the inquisition, as whoever left the white stone notes all over the ground clearly came here before us. We do pick the note up off a corpse after all.
@@zephyruspring Thats a perspective that I hadn't considered. See, because we only find Hornsent down there, an Inquisitor blocking the way and not even the slightest trace of Marika, Messmer or the Tarnished, I'd assumed that nobody aside form the players has ever gotten there. The corpse we find the note on could just as well have been a Hornsent servant, and the white text could have been left by Inquisitors for Inquisitors. The Tarnished use corpsewax messenges after all. My holdup with placing the arrival of the Inquisitors after the Frenzied Flame is: where did the Frenzy come from then? We know it doesn't behave like a sickness, even though it spreads similar to one. Rather, it behaves like an idea! It needs a cause that could have triggered it, which allows it to spring forth spontaneously (Great Caravan, Shabriri). The way it can be directly transmitted even includes writing (Hyetta, Fingerprints). If the FF had appeared naturally within Midra as a result of his studies on the Finger Ruins, then that could explain it; but we don't see much related to that. And it also opens up the question again of "what did Midra do that other Hornsent could see as a crime but not his servants?" I also personally think its actually more likely than not that the eyes on the Madding Hand formed there after the fact. To begin with, they dont really look like normal eyes to begin with, and neither do they look like they were stitched onto the gloves. And we do know that the FF can make eyes grow spontaneously: the Eyes of Yelough appears to be a plant which simply grows around the infected, and the Aging Untouchable itself grows a multitude of bulbous eyes, some even dangling from its hair. The item description also strangely makes no mention of the eyes. I noticed something strange while looking through the various item descriptions just now: the Winterlantern Flies are described as Heralds of the Aging Untouchable. Singular - as if it was a unique entity or a phenomenon like a storm. The Aged Ones Exultation meanwhile refers to "our lord" in the plural. This kind of makes me trend more towards an idea I've had about Shabriri and how he describes himself as "being chaos". I think Hyetta, Shabriri and the Aged One/Untouchable are ideas. Thats how they can appear in people, and reappear after being killed. "You cannot kill an idea" is a concept often mentioned in relation to rebellions, but we also know it from characters like V/Vendetta, Zorro, Batman.
@@mayhemivory5730 Based on the positions of other white text stones around the map I've had a suspicion that they were left by one of the named NPCs in Miquella's group. Specifically Dryleaf Dane based on where you find Dane's armour set at the bottom of the waterfall in the Ruins of Unte, and the Dryleaf Seal nearby. Getting there in the first place requires you to go through an illusory painting in the shadow keep, and it's half way down to the darklight catacombs. I am unable to describe how he might have gotten past the inquisitors guarding the entrance to the abyssal woods though. I don't think the note about parrying the untouchables was left by Dane though, that was somebody else, and you're right it could have been someone from the Manse. I don't subscribe to the idea that it was Midra himself though, it just doesn't fit. Also thinking about it now, the one writing that note must have had a preconceived notion that these beings were untouchable, meaning the note writer must have either encountered them before or been told about an encounter. So if it was someone from the manse then this secondary encounter must have happened before the inquisitors arrived, and who knows when the first encounter might have happened. If it wasn't someone from the manse, then they may have gotten their preconceived notion from the white stone messages. I need to get in game and take a closer look at that corpse. Now the maddening hand. I must concede I hadn't realised that frenzy "grapes" manifest on their own. Depending on how the eyes of yelough grow, it's not much of a stretch to suppose that the flayed skin picked up the infection while laying on the ground. But again that would mean some manner of frenzy infection was present whether the manse staff were infected with it or not. In conflict with that idea, the madding hand may have developed the frenzy grapes from contact with the one wielding the weapon, who may have developed a frenzy infection shortly after the arrival of the inquisitors, which fits the proposed timeline. But again, if there was no frenzy present prior to the inquisitors showing up then what did Midra do to incur their wrath? Messing with the frenzied flame is forbidden in Hornsent culture, so I'm led to believe that the inquisitors went down then in response to finding out about Midra's offence. But why would the manse staff think they didn't do anything wrong? What we've learned about Shabriri from the dlc is that he can't be a spirit. He must be something else with the power to animate dead bodies. The white ghosts of the manse staff and golden spirits of the horned warriors are also questionable. Why did the frenzy not burn them all away? Is that something only a wielder of intense frenzy can do?
I really like how the inquisitors and the golden order both brutally repressed the frenzied flame only to cause it to spread further. It really shows that for all their differences the golden order and the order of the hornsent were alike in a lot of ways and made a lot of the same mistakes.
We know from some in-game description (I forget which item exactly) that the Three Fingers were burned themselves at some point, and it's heavily implied that is the reason they seek to burn everything else. Considering the proximity to the Finger Ruins, and the environmental evidence of the Manse, is it perhaps possible that the Inquisition's burning is what got the Flame of Frenzy started in the first place? Might explain the burning/burned fingerprints all over the boss room. Though I suppose that might conflict with what is said about the Flame being "forbidden" by the Hornsent, which makes it sounds like the flame predates these events, but who knows? Additionally, I believe it's the Arcane talisman that makes reference to a "tribe" beholding a disfigured, twisted version of a deity they worshipped. "The Tribe" is a term exclusively used to denote the tribe of the traveling merchants, afaik. That could be another dot in the web, perhaps. Bit of a tangent here, but, the details about Torrent bring me even more curiosity about the Flame. I had forgotten that Torrent's whistle burns away in the FF ending. Torrent is a spectral horse with horns (so very seemingly originates from the Land of Shadow, probably before it was Shadow). I also recall the promo material for the DLC showing Miquella astride Torrent. I'm not quite sure where all of these dots lead, but they must lead somewhere! Anyway, great video :D
i believe shabriri/naniah actually called in the hornsent at a critical time and maybe even had a say in what way they should punish midra. leading to the festering of the flame. it all fits
That Oblivion cover playing in the background was absolutely lovely. On the subject of music, Midra's boss theme is utterly exceptional. Easily one of FromSoft's finest. The interplay between chaos and elegance is just...holy crap, it's just perfect. I really liked the concept of the frenzied flame in the base game, but Midra elevated it substantially for me.
The entire manse reminds me of the mountaintops of the giants. The beheaded corpses with golden plugs seem to parallel all the giant corpses that are impaled with a giant spiral needle or thorn. This might also show that the needle/thorn techniques that Miquela uses to ward off outer gods started with these suppressive golden thorns that the hornsent used with Midra and the beheaded corpses outside. Midra seems to parallel the last giant, being a lone lord left to tend his destructive flame in solitude. There might be some benefit to leaving the lord of an outer god alive rather than killing them. For example, it might stop a new lord from being chosen. Even if this isn't the reason, Marika's purge of the giants might have been modeled after how the hornsent handled the manse. Also, the inquisitors still at the manse might be like the fire monks who have started to worship the thing that they were supposed to suppress.
Additionally, Nanaya has double braids, similar to Marika (before the braid is cut off) Nanaya's is cloth and Marika's is hair, but the style is the same
Awesome footage, this was a fun watch. I wonder if the implication with regards to the stone eggs under the tarp and the burning finger print marks in the boss arena is that Midra created the 3fingers by exposing Finger eggs to Frenzy? Unrelated but I can't get it out of my head: Since the Greater Will hasn't been around for a long time, could that mean that Nokron, Nokstella, and part of Leyndell ended up underground because their Linchpin stones were destroyed? (Linchpin stones mentioned in the Shatter Stone Talisman description) Seems like Rellanna was able to smash one on her own.
Is it possible, nanaya was once a finger maiden to someone like Vyke - spared from sacrificing to her tarnished on his way to the elden throne, who at last turned back from his goal elden throne and the light itself... The description of Vyke is very close to the description of the torch : "No other Tarnished was closer to the throne of the Elden Lord than Vyke. But without announcement, Vyke traveled far below the capital, and was scorched by the flame of frenzy. Did he make his choice for his maiden, or did some other force lure him with suggestion?"
I had a theory that the subjugation and torture of the shamans may of been because of midra and the frenzied flame. Marika was also tortured and turned into a saint as a result of this. Marika was given her 2 fingers, maybe Nanaya or Midra was given a 3 fingers. Would also explain why none of them have horns even if their subjects did.
It would make sense for the flame to burn the tree that it came from. It would also make sense that tribriary would be a child of the tree in the flame and then die and be destroyed
I think the scenes in the trailers are moments that happened rather then just showing off the dlc, including torrent riding up on the manse. Its possible torrent witnessed the frenzy flame burn a previous rider in that spot with fingerprints, idk why they'd include hay if it ddnt have something to do with torrent, and I think Miyazaki said torrent looks the way it does because it got burnt at some point. I still wonder if the scene with miquella is him breaking his rune or something, those scenes seem important and most characters are in different spots by the time we come around. Also I think the abandoned church may have been a functioning church, before sinking down to the abyss, I might make a video showing a bunch of different places that look they sank from their original positions, I always wondered why such big cliff drops could exist randomly throughout the lands, but I'm certain now the lands used to look more normal, before starting to sink. The easiest areas to see it are the cliffs looking down at shaded castle, the minor erdtree near it collapsed a bridge, and behind that it looks like the erdtree sank the whole shadowlands, like the shadowlands got pushed down while the giant tree that probably weighs over a billion pounds grew. The preceptors or astrologers hat, the one that has orbitals under the brim, it shows the entire solar system spinning around the erdtree like its the sun. The mask has a freaky snake tree eclipse thing going on reaching up into the hat in a way that it looks like spacetime bends around it, I think one of the orbitals shows a crash course with the tree too. But theres no items describing any of this, just me looking at the underside of a hat and wondering why the world looks the way it does.
Okay so.. Wild idea. The discussion chamber covered in hay.. serrated blades.... yeah thats a butcher hall. Hay to soak up fluids and blades to saw things into pieces. So what if... this is the room where those hidden away fingers were taken, while still being attached to something bigger, and this is where they got cut off dismembered etc in some kind of experiment/ritual. Just a thought.
One thing I would say about the frenzied flame is I'm not sure if it's just emotional vulnerability - all the people affected by it seem to contract in some sort of religious context - the merchants are condemned as heretics, Midra is a religious figure, the three fingers have their connection to the other fingers that are supposedly divine envoys, so I've wondered for a while if it's connected to righteous punishment that is ultimately undeserved (which is common place in real world religious inquisitions)
13:11 could also assume they didn’t kill Medra because they did know he could escape as a spirit. Keep in mind Shabriri is a body hoper and death is only a transformative process in Elden ring. Ps. It could be theorized you could capture spirits in spritestones (those holed stone with some having fingerprints) but they are rediscovered ritual implements the Hornsent so far use them as homing bombs💣 .
I have a theory about how midra discovered or at least why he investigated the flame of frenzy, and I think the winter lanterns are a signpost because in bloodborne frenzy is extremely similar but within context the cause is eldritch knowledge. We know the flame of frenzy elden ring has something to do with a resentment of creation and references the 'greater will making a mistake'. I wonder if midra and his cohorts delved too deeply, we've seen his library is vast and he even has a hall for debate, perhaps they struck upon arcane knowledge that illuminated the frame of frenzy to them. And instead of being rapidly overcome they were quietly seduced through study, and only became truly afflicted once the inquisitors came down on them with brutal violence.
Another thing I wonder is what's the deal with his little prayer mat? Like it's got weights on the corners to stop it rolling up and he appears to have been on there for years, and I wonder why, like maybe it's just to help him endure via meditation but, why would the inquisitors grant him that when they showed such brutality to him otherwise?
For the blindness video, another interesting item description is Dane's hat. "The sun-faded and lightly soiled hat of Dryleaf Dane. Worn low over the eyes, it obscures the wearer's vision. Meeting the gaze of another can overcome the senses, often leading to the downfall of those who would walk the noble and solitary seekers' path." I guess this is just more "blind faith" stuff, maybe indicating that vision can lead to empathy, which can make zealous commitment more difficult. As an aside, the hat itself appears to be a Greek petasos, which is the same type of hat that Hermes wears. What that might mean I do not know.
I’m looking forward to your video on sight and blindness. Something I think about pretty often is that I think all of the consumable rune items are eyeballs… specifically, maybe they are seals of grace given to Marika’s chosen. When Messmer removes his eye and destroys it, it makes the same noise as when we consume a rune item. I also corroborate this with the descriptions of Marika’s rune and the sore/scar seals. How many of the demigods or Tarnished have these false eyes of power or grace? and why did some reject them?
I think it’s rather simple most of the storylines in the DLC mirror base game so clearly Nayana is the “Shabriri” to Midra kinda the same as how the flame of frenzy was provoked in the merchants
I believe Nanaya was pregnant and was shabriri attempting to birth a lord of frenzy but the baby was too weak and died young so that’s the small spine she’s holding but the madness caused by that infected Midra but his old frail body wasn’t strong enough to be the lord shabriri wanted so he told Midra to endure and left her body to find a new vessel
about the church, i believe all midra was a priest shaman, and events involving the abyssal woods happened before marika had descended to godhood.(evident by no marika statue in the church) if midra is related to marika, he would know about the fingers and their connection to the Greater Will, but midra had been tricked by the THREE fingers, and the hornsent had ruined the manse in spite of marika after her ascension
I’m partial to the theory that Nanaya was there to preserve Midra. It makes more sense, especially after all the details you’ve pointed out. She didn’t want him to fester or ripen for the perfect moment. She just didn’t want such an evil released. Which is why Midra asked for forgiveness when he removed the seal from himself. She just wasn’t there to sooth his pain anymore. 🥺 I would have folded as well.
@@kitetales Hello again, Kite!🩷 I’m so happy your channel continues to grow. And this DLC added so many layers of lore to Elden Ring. This is particularly cool, examining commentaries on this aspect of the story.
Somthing worth noting; Every Frenzy Incant explicitly originates from the Three Fingers, and Midras incant is "in praise of Midra", implicitly originating from the Three Fingers too.
I may just be seeing things, but the corpse of "Nanaya" or at least the corpse holding that torch, appears to have a distended belly, not from hunger, but from dying while many months pregnant.
The one thing I question most about the theories coming from the dlc is the assumption that Merika was herself a shaman by bloodline/birth. If so, that means all shaman are also Numen, but that wouldn't make much sense if Numen as a race are uncommonly born, given how many jars got filled. I tend to think that Merika is a Numen who was raised in the shaman village, thus being a shaman culturally rather than by birth. She wouldn't even have needed to be born there, since the lore tying her to the village talks about her 'first steps' rather than her birth. Given that, I like the idea that she was born at the Manse, maybe of a Numen father (Midra's pretty old and Numen are long lived!) and a shaman mother, and when the Frenzy started taking hold she was shuffled to the shaman village to live with her mother's relatives in safety. I also don't think Shabriri was in control of Nanaya when Midra fell in love with her. I could definitely see him being in control at some point after and cursing Midra to 'endure' though, that makes sense to me. But Shabriri doesn't seem like he'd be quite suave enough to pull off being a maiden worth as much devotion as Midra shows to Nanaya!
Hello ! Thank you for this amazing video and calm shiny voice. I want to share my personnal theory I did not see anywhere else, but maybe its because its dumb and have a massive counter argument to refuse it. Nanaya is the Maiden of Midra. She occupy the same role as Melina with us in the main story (maybe Nanaya is a sister of Melina ? We dont know the exact number of siblings here). Maybe Midra was inflicted with the Power of Frenzied flame, and as a member of the Gold Lineage, Nanaya begged him to refuse to succumb and to become the Frenzied Flame Lord, as Melina did for us. Midra does, in my eyes, look like a very loving man to his dead wife’s vow. He knows he could abandon his curse and become the Lord he was meant and condemn to be. But his love for his wife and maiden was stronger and he chose to resist. Maybe we (as the player) arrive and trigger his giving up, and we are meant here to stop a becoming Frenzied Flame Lord he could be. (When we die on him, the cutscene of his transformation starts again, meaning if we really loose, in a lore manner, the world is doomed by this Chaos Lord reign. I dont know if Midra is a tarnished, but it feels so obvious for me how he his resisting to the Flame as we did with Melina.
Looking at all of the horrible crap that was going on throughout the Land of Shadow, I'm kind of wondering if revenge against the Hornsent was just a bonus and the real reason for Marika's crusade was to seal off the entire region.
Really good theories here. Spitballing but if I had to hazard a guess, there’s a chance Midra was punished for studying the finger ruins. This would explain the presence of stone fingers and eggs. When the fingers arrived the hornsent would’ve seen them as anathema and eventually heretical there’s no evidence of fingers even being tacitly tolerated. The Manse seems like it was a glowing, shining beacon of study and research. Midra being an academic would’ve been intrigued and maybe even took the “forbidden” fingers in secret to study. As emissaries of a God foreign to their belief system, this would represent the ultimate heresy but perhaps it had not been publicly announced yet that the fingers were forbidden. This feels like a defcon 5 situation where the hornsent wanted to make the ultimate example out of Midra, torturing him for all eternity. The flame of frenzy and its effects would’ve been foreign to the hornsent as the chaos flame/three fingers seem to act in response to the activity of the two fingers, suggesting they arrived in the lands between together following Metyr’s arrival. So it may be possible through one of their very typical punishments they unleashed frenzy on these lands which were originally beautiful as seen in the paintings of the Manse, and in their fear locked the whole region away to fester. The Hornsent seemingly “oopsed” themselves into extinction.
Okay so I closed my eyes _hint hint_ for a moment and saw the following: Shabriri's empty eye sockets eventually entertained and harboured the frenzied flame. And Mohg's been able to see to Formless Mother via his gouged eye. At least one of which are confirmed to be an outer god. An entity thought to be so inaccessible, deeper than invisible. Also Astel, born somewhere in the voids, forms an eye within her entire skull where mortal brains usually reside, basically saying "vision is superior to thinking". There's some Egyptian literature to support that claim. Midra, on the other hand, discovered the frenzy elsewhere and his Flame of Frenzy description says there were others before him. On another note, I'm wondering about the timeline of it all. As far as I can tell, Shabriri was condemned by the Golden Order / people of Leyndell - under which the victims of his slander are buried - and that's when he was punished and could possibly invite the frenzied flame. How could he then be present for Nanaya, alleged mother to Marika, co-founder of the Golden Order which then judged him? Even though he can shift bodies, the frenzied flame part was softlocked for him until much later. But the thing itself seems to be everpresent, and only reaching the 'critical mass' of it is the real question. However there's the description of the Greatsword of Damnation's Ash of War that's giving me headaches: "There is something of the Golden Order in the sight of those fixed upon this crux." Something of the Golden Order, huh? And given that the sword was administered by the hornsent... A golden sharp item that is meant to ward off a terrible and unknown disease but falling short and ultimately unleashing something truly horrible? Sounds way too Miquellesque~
It's interesting Nanaya's corpse still has black hair. She didn't grow old But also if Midra and Nanaya are Marika's parents and Nanaya is a shaman woman, then maybe the Hornsent purging the manse was why they sought out the shaman village to begin with. As they tortured the shamans for any information on the frenzied flame, they found their flesh would meld with the other flesh. I still like the idea that Nanaya and the grandmothers were Numen. So theoretically, the shamans could be Numen offshoots and Midra and Nanaya wouldn't have to be specifically Marika's parents to have started the torture of the shaman village. Or instead, I saw another video that suggested the other shaman village, with the beheaded grandmother and the tree that bends down, may be pointing to the manse and indicates that the grandmother transferred her soul into Nanaya. And Nanaya is using Midra to enact an eventual revenge on the Hornsent. Though that does presuppose several other theories to be true as well.
Mental illness. Madness is what we cannot understand and mental illness is the inability to understand an aspect of yourself. And the maddness of feeling alone (knowing you are the only one who can affect reality [as you know it]) drives your mad. This is why Marika fell to maddness. Knowing You were the reason You failed and knowing you can never escape that is something heavier than some can bear. We can only endure for so long.
I must be really dumb because I could not for the life of me find the torch. Also, if Shabriri did possess Nanaya, that means he canonically took backshots just to create a lord of frenzy.
If she were Shabriri she would've not told him to endure. Shabriri is all "chaos takes the world" and if he had the chance to get someone to burn a lot of stuff then he would let them and push them so I don't feel it's Shabriri. I feel she succumbed eventually probably with the death of her child. The torch says it belonged to a lord not a man. It wasn't Midra's. He has his still and it's not that small. And if it was her kid's and the kid got the Flame in the womb or after then just like everyone with the Flame they're referred to as Lord and when it was born or whenever it got it it probably couldn't handle the flame so since the flame is behind the eyes in the head it probably burned the skull away leaving the spinal column in the remains for a most likely Frenzied Nanaya to fashion her torch from. Can't wait for that F. Flame video. It and the interplay of it and the golden order are my favorite parts of the lore. So hell yeah on that
About that little church, from the painting, isn't it strange that it has one of the two still active altars that converts the stone scabbard sword into a Sword of Darkness? It can also change a Sword of Light. And if you go back to the altar at Rauh, you can do it over again for a reconversion! It's peculiar that in this place in particular is one of these most esoteric expressions of power that existed in the same timeframe as that of the Crucible, or moreso the Hornsent Religion of Enir Ilim. Why would it be there? Why would it have relation to a place Marika would have been as well? I can't help but feel I'm missing something with that.
Could the Aging Untouchables be Oracle Envoys for the flame of frenzy? It is said Oracle Envoys appear to herald the arrival of a new god or age and play large horns. I got the strange impression that the Aging Untouchables wielded their weapons like a conductor's baton, and you find them near these strange bells in the grass which are musical in nature.
So, I Was waiting to see you post something on this one. The way I've put his story together is that he showed up there to help deal with the spread of the frenzied flame. I feel like Nanaya was persuaded by the fingers to help Midra become the Lord. I feel like she's not Shabriri but one of the first like Shabriri. like a prophet for the flame or something. I also think the Torch is the unborn Child. her stomach isn't that big in the chair. The note you find speaking of touching one of the untouchables was Midra. Nanaya piqued his interest by showing him the knowledge of the 3 fingers. so, he decided to figure out how to touch one. My proof on this is all the servants say Lord Midra. If this was someone else, it would say "I must report this to Lord Midra". Midr'as spine is also intact so there's no way that's his. and the child would have come out as frenzied born. The hornsent helped Midra get down there to have him deal with the flame and instead he become fascinated with it due to his scholar ways. to the Hornsent that's the largest heracy in the world. I feel like Nanaya is the biggest cause to the spread. it was already there. but when the fingers were brought in it changed the whole ball game. Love to hear what others think as well! :P
I have been calling him MID Rah for so long and am instantly taken by the way you call him ME Dra and will hence forth use this every time in reference to him😂
Personally, i find it more likely that Nanaya was a Death Bed Companion, like Fia.. It could be that the tiny spine Nanaya was holding was perhaps her child born already infected by the Frenzy Flame, that was put to death by the inquisitors. The whole scene reminded me more of a tragic mother holding the remains of her dead infant. Midra was seeking knowledge that eventually came back to bite him, resulting in tragedy for him, his family and his people. Nanaya was asking him to endure. Since we know what happened when he finally gave up, i find it difficult to believe she wanted him to become the Lord of Frenzy Flame. This is a tragic story and i don't see any villains in it, other than a misguided man who was seeking the forbidden knowledge..
Also anyone notice how the head of the lord of frenzy flame and the fleeting microcosm look very similar to each other? I feel like there’s a connection here no one is talking about
Kitetales do you have a discord community or any particular lore communities people can join or you'd recommend?? Also, goes without saying, but excellent video. Love the format of trying out community theories, very fun to speculate on :)
i really get more questions regarding melina with the lore we learn about the frenzied flame burning spirits. how is it that Melina is still around after the world gets burnt to the ground in the frenzied flame ending? unless she got reborn somehow? we know she is a spirit during our adventures together but the fact she did not " die " when we pull that ending off is super confusing to me.
...considering shamans have some connection to spirits, a shaman being a deathbed companion isnt a stretch....then to think if Nanaya had died at some point..Shabriri could have have taken over and no one would have possibly known? Maybe the connection to spirits, made the shaman/deathbed companion an even easier target... My only issue with the marika parents theory is that Shaman village is supposed to be her home...unless its a like an origin home? But she was born in the manse and learned about her culture there?....also...the 3 fingers being summoned, nanaya being shabriri...i cant help but think of Marikas empyrean influence came from that....we never did see Marikas 2 fingers (unless its the roundtable)
The image of the sword puncturing him in the way it does hits my body horror nerve
Don’t ever watch “Bone Tomahawk” my friend 😳
@@kitetales thanks now I have to look
@@kitetales Lol Bone Tomahawk is an awesome movie. Kurt Russell is so good.
On the one hand i wish the manse was bigger to get more of those vibes. On the other, i remember i hate horror and thank the lord it was short and sweet 😅
One of my top horror movies of all time; SO freaking good!
I love the theory that they’re Marika’s parents, esp with the line about Miquella’s line being “mired in madness” - a “mire” is a swamp, which lends another shade to that statement - perhaps it’s more literal than we assumed and his line was literally from the mad swamp!
It’s a fun idea right?!
For your sight/blindness video, I recently learned that in Japanese folklore, those with only one eye are thought to have an easier time communing with the divine.
That is an incredible piece of info I will absolutely cite that, thank you!! This is why I love everyone’s feedback so much! 🥲
Could you maybe elaborate on that just a little? Just enough so I can look up this stuff myself, because sadly I have no idea what you're referencing with this.
@@kitetales My pleasure. It was apparently a practice among certain particularly devoted Shinto priests to remove one of their eyes for this purpose.
@@entroponeticsOoh, I think that tracks with Frozen Eleum Lloyce from Dark Souls 2. You need to find the eye of a priestess, which has been passed down among the city's priestesses, in order to dispel the illusion that makes the boss invisible.
@@entroponetics Can you provide a specific source, because in my short google investigations most of the results were lackluster.
However in that same google search i found a reddit thread which talked about japanese folklore in relation to pop-culture and manga and stuff and one of the commenters pointed out the Buddhist daruma dolls. Basically good luck charms.
The Wikipedia article reads: "The eyes of Daruma are often blank when sold. Monte A. Greer, author of Daruma Eyes, described the "oversized symmetrical round blank white eyes" as a means to keep track of goals or big tasks and motivate them to work to the finish. The recipient of the doll fills in one eye upon setting the goal, then the other upon fulfilling it. In this way, every time they see the one-eyed Daruma, they recall the goal."
Both Melina and Messmer have a sworn duty to Marika, and Ranni is very determined in her goal.
10:29 My immediate thought was a cage or chamber, now melted to scrap by the Three Fingers Midra had tried to contain in order to study. The room itself is called the 'Discussion Chamber', which reminds me of Gideon's exchange with the Two Fingers; Midra likely had the Three Fingers contained (so he thought) in the chamber to commune with them, discuss with, as Gideon did.
I don't think Shabriri is the only emanation of the Frenzied Flame, he's just full of himself (and probably the individual responsible for the genocide of the nomads). If Shabriri is Nanaya, then he is also Hyetta, whose body belonged to Irina. I think Nanaya is simply a third "individual" in this collection of personalities returned to spread chaos.
Wild theory, I think the Ruins of Unte were once in the Hinterlands where we find the massive unnatural-looking crater kinda awkwardly positioned. We find an incantation in the ruins that is associated with the inquisition. I speculate maybe it was an occupying Hornsent settlement near Shaman village that Marika basically ejected from the Hinterlands, something that would certainly be of great offense to her. Of course, the further evidence to this are the flowers. I also find it interesting that the Abyssal Woods are downstream from the Shadow Keep, can't help but feel that has thematic significance.
That’s right they definitely did conceal areas they wanted to keep hidden; would love to see a map of what it used to all look like!
@@kitetales This is what i think happened with the abyssal woods, all the suffering from bonny village soiled the land and into the wood below. That brought the attention of certain beings sniffing for madness. You see my theory is the shaman were Numen trying to harness gold for all the societies, so that purified their meat but also gave them a connection to gold. Thought the game series the dark and fire can spread like a disease or Eldritch like monstrous being/end. it only makes sense in a land where the most southern tip is mired in black/white shadow skies, to the north golden green to clear skies, the origins of twisted inversions begin here with both elements. And this conflict is the war of gold and shadow, just like the giants and dragons with ice/fire. The rune Ark represents the awakened eye at the beginning of the golden dawn, when God first opens their eye, through the cracks of millisecond creation. There was gold, then...the most intense happening of all of existence, singularity. Whats terrifying is that Goldmask is not only a inversion of Midra, but at the end of the solar cycle the process of creation is repeated, super nova.
"I am Alpha and Omega, both the beginning and end of time, if grace is the road toward totality, i am its zenith"
When we look at runes and eyes, the more experience one endures and conditions (as witness by the numen first coming as deathweavers, turned into loving hippies), the more we accelerate change and growth toward that thing. The greater the experience one endures the greater the rune/soul, and from that the highest concentration the eyes become red then ripen...
idk. its all complicated LOL. Thank you for enduring my opinion..
The manse being downstream from the keep is an interesting observation. Since we know the flame can be spread the same way as a disease, you could almost argue the water from the keep carried all the horrors and violence from the events there and deposited them in the abyssal woods.
The roads to shadow keep being deeply dug and very wet with water.. along with Shadow Keep apparently having an ability to keep itself filled with water as a defense and also be able to purge itself of water makes me feel like this is a defensive purpose of the tower and runs a long way thru these deep river bed like paths.
I think the supressing tower is supposed to rest in the center of the perfectly spaced divine towers. If you put it there, I think two of the divine towers overlap big holes, one lining up with the whole in the Hinterlands and the other being the Fissure. Could be wrong, but think Marika "hid" the shadow lands but intensionally left the divine towers, as they probably still had utility that she wished to remain accessible. And it also leaves a second (not draining into the earth) lake for the plural Luirnia of The Lakes, and makes the Cerulean coast, a coast if your fine with big lakes having coasts. Though, I think the game is trying to tell us that the Shadow Lands were mapped after being "displaced." Perhaps in preparation for the genocide.
Great video as always KiteTales! I really like how you used the metaphor of ripening to describe what is happening with Midra's frenzy. It nicely invokes the grapes of -wrath- frenzy we see with both Shabriri's grapes and the flora and fauna of the abyssal woods. Also my favorite fight aside from Bayle
@@ZayftheScholar Your work is also excellent, good sir! Thank you!
Oh hi you!! Thank you so much!! ❤️ Yeah in my eyes nothing beats that Bayle fight for style… raised the bar on boss fights for sure
I enjoy how the Frenzied Flame can be considered quite a few things but at its core it is entropy manifested through suffering, the desire for the end. It’s interesting that their eyes melt, most of them are typically looking up at the sky, clenching their faces and eye sockets, as if they stared at the sun too long.
9:30 oooo I don't know where I heard this but the Fingers are probably most akin to Fungi. I'm pretty sure because of Finger Mimics (hallucinatory mushrooms, design based on the Dead Mens Fingers), the theory is that the definition of "Mimic" is actually "Asexually reproduced offspring".
EDIT: It was Ziostorms video. The theory has to do a lot with Fungi's role as nature's messengers. And partially because the Two-Fingers introduced God to The Lands Between, which is an allegory to psychedelic mushrooms and how it's theorized they're organisms sent by some force to give us enlightenment.
I'm sorry if this comes across weird, but your voice is genuinely so pleasant to listen to, I could just sit and listen to you talk for hours
@@elliottrichmond1579 Don’t feel weird. Her voice is spectacular.
Fret not, most (if not all) of us have had the same thought xD it's why we're here, that, and the lore of course.
i don't think that's weird, she has a wonderful broadcast voice
Simp
You are so kind!! 🥲💙 thank you so much, huge compliment for me and I’m going to reference you for my audiobook auditions! 👏
A personal theory of mine regarding the Frenzy lore in this DLC is that it's heavily tied to Metyr and her lore. In Metyr's tail staff that you get from her remembrance it says that the Greater Will abandoned her. Several of the fingers in the finger ruins as well as in her boss room seem burned or have eerily similar design to The Three Fingers. There's also the hidden finger eggs in Midra's Manse which to me feels like a purposeful decision to put those there hidden behind his and Nanaya's portrait.
I believe that The Abyss Woods was a form of ground zero that ended up being touched by the Frenzy Flame. Which could've been due to Shabriri. Then Metyr somehow got infected by the Frenzy Flame and gave birth to the 3 Fingers, and by doing so became defective then because of that was abandoned by the Greater Will.
The one thing I'm kinda hazy on is who's spine is being cradled by Nanaya. Before the DLC I believed she was a Deathbed Companion 100%. After the DLC I believe she was an original finger maiden for the 3 fingers. The easy answer is that the spine was Shabriri's and that he failed to become the Lord of Frenzy Flame, but even then I'm not too sure.
While I know this video isn't about Metyr I had to discuss my personal head cannon of where the 3 Fingers came from. Unlike the 2 Fingers there's only 1 set of 3 Fingers. Plus with Metyr being damaged I personally think the 2 things are related along with the other context clues I listed above. Yeah though really fun video! I absolutely love Midra as well as the entire Abyss Woods area. I wish there were more enemies there as well as the Manse being bigger, but I still love it all regardless.
Quite certain the spine belongs to Midra himself, considering he doesn’t currently have one
Love the Rat plague theory - might link to Ailing Village in Weeping where there is a giant Frenzy Rat & several small rats. As always, amazing lore vid - keep up the great work!
Thank you so much!!
10:21 this definitely looks like a palm print. One from a left hand at that
Oh yeah I can see it, the thumb!!
Maybe the metal serrated blades were used to cut or saw the fingers off a hand, to make three fingers...
A giant flaming hand would explain why much of the area is melted down and there are no more flowers like in the painting
10:35 If I had to guess, they kind of just seem like rebar. The all-knowing Wikipedia says that iron rods have been used in construction and masonry since antiquity, and while I'm not sure why they'd just be sticking out of the floor in the open like that, it does somewhat give the impression of a partly-finished location, perhaps used as temporary storage for... something.
Oooo…. Like maybe something that was enclosed escaped?!
@kitetales I would hazard more along the lines of the room being built, then construction here halted and it being used to store something else instead. It doesn't seem like anything broke out too violently, but the hay on the floor might imply that something living was being kept there. Perhaps it was a padding so that whatever made those burned fingerprints wouldn't burn the floor all the the time
The fingerprints in the boss room are something I never noticed, and very cool.
Something I can't get over about the Three Fingers, and how I end up seeing them, is how compassionate, how personable, they seem to be to their followers, compared to any other fingers we meet. The way the game links the Warming Stone and the Frenzyflame Stone seems to further this feeling. I kind of think that the Three Fingers are not *essentially* the vessel for the Frenzied Flame, but only conditionally. I think, rather, that the Three Fingers are the only fingers trying to hear out and enact the wish of mankind, and Shabriri was the man that got to them first. But if Midra and his followers worshipped a pre-Frenzy Three Fingers, and were forced to watch in horror as it became the conduit for a plague of the human condition, I think it would explain a lot about both how it got out of control, and why they've stuck with it in spite of everything.
Ooo I think that, an origin story to the madness of the fingers. Now I’m thinking maybe Midra was trying to concoct a cure in his manse??
Once again establishing why you’re the Queen of the lore in this space! Absolute masterpiece! I love how effortless this is for you lol extraordinary and quite compelling.💜☕️🫖
Awwww thank you so much my darling friend!!! 😭💜 Now we just need to get your first work of art uploaded and displayed!!! 🥰
@@kitetales someday lol maybe lol
Yes. There's absolutely no shot Nanaya didn't deliberately invite Frenzied Flame onto the Manse/Sanctum. Between the eerie painting and her personally owning a torch of another failed Frenzied Lord from a different land (which is important since the Hornsent literally quarantined the area. meaning she got it from somewhere else before that), Nanaya 100% used Midra in hopes of creating a new lord. My question is, why?
@@revenge3265 Probably for the same reason Shabriri tries to entreat with us…
So that chaos may take the world.
I think the torch she holds is the spine of her and Midra's child.
@@TheTegas I recall Hawkshaw’s channel mentioning that. I like that theory too.
@@TheTegas Unfortunately, that doesn't track. The item description states it's the spine of a "man" and a failed lord from a "distant land". Also, the torch is actually quite long, meaning it likely belonged to an adult or at least a late teen. It's also noted that Nanaya herself was stated to have come from somewhere else and seduced Midra, which leads credence to the idea that she personally brought the Torch from elsewhere to the Manse (Kinda like how it's theorized she may have brought the Finger Ruins and eggs that are hidden in the Manse, suggesting that she may have invited the Three Fingers personally, which we do see a sign of them being there). Unless this is some big translation error, I don't see this being their child as Nanaya would've likely had her child at the Manse and considering the lack of photos, it seems like the child died young. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Nanaya killed or experimented on the child though (whether to do something with Frenzy physically or to simply make Midra suffer more), but I don't think it's the torch despite being a pretty twisted revelation.
@@JohnDWJ True, but that's a pretty easy answer and I'm thinking of something more interesting considering she is seemingly one of the first Frenzied Flame worshippers (at least she predates the Lands Between)... Being the first Three Finger Maiden (Considering her obvious reverence for the Frenzied Flame, her being the first Three Finger Maiden sorta like how Hyetta is would track), being possessed by Shabriri if not being the first Shabriri (Considering the creepy smirk as Midra looks terrified/depressed next to her and the deliberately dark eyes with the shadows cast over them, this being a subtle visual hint that she's Shabriri by referencing the Woe talisman would not surprise me), or perhaps even being a Living Saint like Marika but was chosen by the Frenzied Flame Outer God instead of the Greater Will (Possibly even explaining why Midra was even given the title of Sage, a Manse, and even an entire area as his Sanctum despite not being Hornsent. We know Hornsent personally see themselves as divine and straight up disregard the lives of others races, so giving a non-Hornsent like Midra such power shows a pretty hefty sign of respect IMO).
The decapitated almost have a tree-like appearance to them, perhaps linking them to the Shamans?
I am suprised no one has linked that Midra is a shadow to Goldmask.
The very similar corpselike body structure. The fact that Goldmasks mask has a similar look and style to the lord of frenzied flame. The tattered robes they both wear
Maybe goldmask looks similar to midra in the painting without the mask.
Another absolute banger. When you zoomed into the fingerprint marks on the floor I audibly went 'no way' 10/10, would subscribe again.
Hello! Long time viewer, first time commenter here. I think your thoughtful insight into the lore of these games is unparalleled, I just love the way you pull things apart and look at them from all angles before drawing conclusions that then seem so incredibly obvious when you lay them out - but wouldn't have occured to most people at all!
I'd really love to see you do a video on the implications of the location of the Land of Shadow. The Suppressing Pillar says that it's the very centre of The Lands Between, and I think this is really important. This means that The Land of Shadow was once in the middle of the main map, with Altus Plateau to the north, Limgrave to the south and Liurnia to the west.This implies a two really important things straight off - firstly that "Scadu Altus" was once a a part of The Altus Plateau before it was veiled in shadow, and given the location of the Scadu Tree (just north of the land mass), it was mostly likely in the exact same space as the Erdtree. To me this indicates that the Scadu Tree was once the Great Tree, but now that the Land of Shadow is cut off from the rest of The Lands Between, it's dying and has become the Scadu Tree instead, with Marika's Edtree growing in its place (as seen in the Deeproot Depths). I think this connects to a lot of assumptions about the hornsent and the crucible.
The other thing I think is implied by this locaiton is that to the far east of the Land of Shadow is a great mountain peak wreathed in fire and storms and inhabited only by dragons: did Farum Azula once rest atop this peak? When Marika veiled The Land of Shadow and cut it off from the rest of The Lands Between, was Farum Azula left adrift to be destroyed by the storm? I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of this, I have no doubt you'd shed even more light on it all with your detailed research. Thanks!
Thank you so much for your kind words! I’ve had a document that I’ve been putting all kinds of little things as I come across them for the Scadutree and the Erdtree and I am absolutely putting your comment in there to take a look at. The Suppressing Pillar is definitely a huge clue. Thanks so much for sharing your great insight on this!! I’ll definitely be getting something out about it!
Ive only seen one other video of yours but im now convinced your one of my top at giving souls lore. Your voice keeps me engaged unlike those like vaati and miss chalice. So im not drifting off to sleep, or my mind keeps wandering haha and i think you do a good job at giving what we know and opening new ideas that you can interpret them. Keep up the videos. Feel a little sad im late to a lot of these discussions now
Wow thank you so much for such high praise!! I really appreciate that feedback as well, it’s been nice to just speak more conversationally than performative so I’m really happy it’s a good style!! 🥲❤️
Nanaya? Nanaya business!
The TRUE reason Midra went mad 😭
My theory is that The frenzy flame is a reference to the 18 century enlightenment. Let me explain:
In elden ring those who cover their eyes do that because they have faith that they don’t need to see the path. That is literally blind faith, but the frenzy flame do the opposite. The followers of the frenzy flame are blind people that are trying to see. They are no longer put their faith in the gods, but in something else. You might say “the frenzy flame is a outer god” “is still faith”. However the flame behaves more like a tool than a god. Their followers don’t do worship the flame in the same way the horns did with the cruxible or the golden order do with the two fingers. They have a cause and will use the power of the flames to achieve it. Now about the enlightenment, in the end of the 17th century humanity tried to explain the nature base on logic and not god. If you read the authors ( Voltaire, Sade, Rosseuau and etc) of that period they are focus on material reality of things. Midra is a sage, maybe a philosopher he could have discovered the flame not by a external force, but by logic and reflection. Another why of explain the word. That might have been considered dangerous because was bad for the dogmatic faith of the horns. Also enlightenment can literally be described as what happened with the lord of the frenzy flame. That can be a reference of buddhism. Since a big part of buddhism is the end of the suffering, exactly what happened with Midra when he became the lord
The Frenzied Flame induces insanity and the Inquisitors are aware that it melts both body and soul, so they were in the right to seal the Abyssal Woods and we also see it in action in the Frenzied Flame ending. Midra is a sage and possibly have priestly role of sorts because of the manse, so his knowledge would pertain to both physical and spiritual matters in his time. With those in mind, the comparison between the Frenzied Flame and the Enlightenment would be more of a warning towards the players, if anything. What happened during that time before Napoleon arrived was insanity unleashed.
The hornsent opposed the Frenzy flame because it melted away even spirits which the Hornsent venerated. Spirits and sprites for the Hornsent were ways of communicating and unearthing the past of the world to better understand. As seen in the Ruins of Rauh and the revered spirit ash description. The withered corpses we gather the ashes from are called tutelary deities, acting as patrons and teachers for the Hornsent society. Spirits are eternal but the flame of frenzy burned them away regardless. ( As the ''Surging frenzied flame'' item description reads). Also the Frenzied flame is not so much of faith or enlightenment. It just burns everything away. All sins, and curses and afflictions, but also all love, beauty, goodness and so on. It's not really death either, because death doesn't seem to be the end for a lot of things in the lands between.
But i get your reference and intersting point of view regardless. I recommend checking out Hawkshaw's video on Midra and the Frenzied flame. Its really informative.
Okay I’m totally going to be looking into this for my upcoming video on sight!
@@97alexk I get what you’re saying. Although I think that enlightenment doesn’t necessarily is a good in the world of elden ring. Like in Lovecraft stories when people get mad not because they are incapable of reason, but because they know more that they should, they comprehend the world better and that is true madness for the human mind. The flame can consume sins, love and curses because they don’t matter when you have no attachment. Enlightenment can be see that way, at least in a cosmic horror history like the one of Midra.
@@anonimojones4164 Ahh i see! Now that you put it that way i get what you mean. Especially the ''they know more than they should'' and that madness comes from realizing the nature of the world, thus being unable to bare that truth.
It reminds me of a pretty famous Nietzsche quote which you have perhaps have heard of which roughly goes: ''The character of a person is determined on how much truth he can bare''. Which is kinda interesting because Midra was a scholar and a philosopher. A well read person. A sage. So indeed he probably had to encounter many truths about the world and himself, which makes an invitation to the frenzied flame even more so easier if that is how madness latches on. So Madness comes first and then frenzied flame is sure to follow? Sounds a bit like frenzied flame is nihilism visualized. It destroys everything.
You make these videos sound so engaging. I don't even play the game and you make me invested in the lore.
I do like all these theories. But I really just want to believe that she was someone who genuinely fell in love with Midra and when she heard rumours that he’d inherited the Frenzied Flame, she didn’t want to believe it but at some point, could no longer bear the idea and simply killed herself. Though, something interesting, her dead body was slumped over and for some reason, has no rotting despite being implied to have been dead for quite a while. She may have lived in the Manse for a long time and simply avoided being noticed by the Inquisitors. She may have killed herself from no longer wishing to live with the pain of knowing her love was in such agony and killed herself.
I love, love to hear everyone’s theories. The Elden Ring lore community is so rich with ideas. 💜✨
Your videos are always so fun to watch and every time there's at least one moment where I'm like 🤯🤯🤯 Keep up the great work KT 💜
The fact that the diary page talking about parrying the untouchables is found in the manse definitely indicates that at least 1 untouchable was around before inquisitors came.
It is unclear if the untouchables are a result of research done at the manse or if they were around first, but it would definitely make sense if the untouchable being around was the reason for this area being forbidden.
Another thing about Nanaya’s location is she’s not only isolated from the violence, but she’s also on a balcony looking down on everything. Kind of leads to the idea that she’s the one who led the inquisition on the manse.
Really wish we got more lore on the inquisitors themselves. But the only thing I’ve seen so far is from their ashes. Im paraphrasing but it mentions something along the lines of the inquisitors being the oldest hornsent, and their methods weren’t supported by the younger generations. Pretty messed up if your own people think you’re going too far
I am having the perfect morning, this video plus a cup of coffee during a cold morning, gotta love life.
Awwwww thank you, the perfect coffee companion!! 💙☕️
@@kitetales Thank you for the goated video too sis 🫡🫡🫡
Thanks again for sharing your hard work
Thank you so much for watching!!
10:20 it definitely fits the size of the Three Fingers! Also maybe I'm seeing what I want to see, but it does kind of resemble a closed-fist if you view the 'wrist' on the left-most side, in the same way the Three Fingers close around the Tarnished in the cutscene before disappearing.
Great video and didn’t think I would get mention. I like the theory that this is where the three finger was born. When you show Midra back, I notice that it looks in a way like the three finger marks but more smaller. So with the metal blades or pieces in the boss room. Is it possible the baby three finger touch Midra and burn him with madness which started this series of events. Midra cage it up in fear. Then it grew bigger and escape at some point.
The missing head and plugging it up also seems like a point to either stopping anyone from being a lord of madness or creating more of those winters lanterns. Missing eyes let one glaze into madness. Missing head let one become madness.
The description of the horned warrior chest piece mentioned that the yellow cloth was reminiscent of a hero from older times and thought it was hinting at Midra being that hero.
Looking back the hero probably wasn’t Midra but I like the idea that the hero was some ancestor of Midra. Either that or maybe I’m just overthinking things.
Yellow is such a symbolic color to them; might have to put that on my list of things to look into!
It wasn't the color yellow, but the moulding of the armor, "made to resemble the _unclothed_ form of a hero from ancient times"
What if the spine is shabriris, or the spine of a child he lost?
Originally, I thought the spine was midras, but you can see the mangled spine in midras body after he stands up and transforms.
The frenzied flame gains power from suffering, this is why Narayan told him to endure. Over time he will have suffered enough to become a lord. Notice how in there portrait she is the only one smiling
My theory is that it's her and midras baby, that they tried to make a true Lord from someone who holds the flame of frenzy, it could be a Lord of a distant land by being the heir of said land. It'd explain why it's tiny and cradled
@kaiwatson7923 so nanaya is controlled by shabriri, the spine could be his own that he kept around while using her. Not sure about the baby, but it could be an attempt to give birth to the lord which failed, so Shabriri had midra tortured Instead
@@thebeef420 I'd not linked them at all, instead that she was a three finger maiden
@kaiwatson7923 notice how she's the only one smiling in the portrait and wasn't tortured like the rest. Her smile is the same as the shabriri talisman, and she told him to endure the pain knowing he'll turn. Her body was abandoned when he never succumbed
Also there are giant severed fingers behind the portrait. If midra made the 3 fingers, this would give the hornsent a good reason to execute midra (which nanaya told them about). This is also why metyr was abandoned
19:19 I can‘t believe nobody seems to know this: Untouchables are a social class / caste in japan.
The caste was officially abolished as part of the treatise that ended WW2, but it still exists today. Untouchables are considered filthy because historically they worked with excrements. As a result, they are still disadvantaged to this day.
Midra used to be a lord and sage, part of the Hornsent clergy. His „crime“ is touching an Untouchable. Everything else is a consequence of that.
Everyone and their „Shabriri is evil“ theories keeps ignoring that Elden Ring is a social commentary at its core.
The Frenzied Flame is an understanding for the plight of the downtrodden. At its core is empathy/sympathy, which we know the Hornsent considered a vice.
Midra came in contact with an Untouchable, maybe a beggar of sorts. From this experience, he learned to see the lower class as people and began to see their suffering. He questioned his faith and the state/religion as a result. Because touching an Untouchable is a social taboo, he was stripped of his rank, his disciples were executed (in a notably japanese manner) and his santuary (the mansion and the entire forest) were burned down by the inquisitors. His beloved mistress asked him to endure, which he eventually could no more. In failing to endure, he failed to become the saviour of the people (we already know that the Lord of Frenzy needs to endure the pain and anguish of literally everything in existence).
Elden Ring is about history, ideology and society. The „shadow of the erdtree“ is literally the „dark side of history“. Thats why the DLC is about the cycle of violence and those left in the wake of war, rather than about glory and legends. History is written by the victors, but now we learn what they wanted to hide.
The Three Fingers is what you get when you combine „God is all-powerful“, „God is all-knowing“ and „God is good“ with „there is suffering“. You get „God is impotent and evil“. And then you study your believes the way Midra studied the Finger Ruins and you notice „wait a minute - God doesn’t exist - we were fucked from the start“. This has been the writing on the wall for a while, but its gotten blatantly reinforced with the DLC.
The description of the Madding Hand states they are the weapons of the utterly downtrodden who were hunted as heretics by their own brethren. “Utterly downtrodden” definitely fits the ‘untouchables’ theme, but it makes me think the sages of the manse became those aging untouchables. Which brings into question the timing of the note about touching one.
It also makes clear that the hornsent were late to the party. The frenzied flame had already spread enough for the creation of such a fist weapon to be made in response to their arrival.
@@zephyruspring „A glove stitched together from the flayed skin of the victims of a butcherous bloodbath.“
and
„Forged of an unyielding, black impulse toward revenge fostered in those who were hunted down as heretics by their own brethren, these are the weapons of the utterly downtrodden.“
actually makes me think the Madding Hand was made in response to the Inquisitors‘ arrival. Their execution of Sage Midra‘s disciples in front of the mansion is the only notion of a bloodbath that we get.
In this interpretation, the diary note about touching the Untouchable also wouldn‘t be out of place. I think if something had already happened to the sages, or if the Inquisitors had been late, then not just the note but also the ghost complaining/crying in the mansion would fall out of place - which doesn‘t make sense, since the ghosts aren‘t „aware“ enough to lie.
I always rather belief all text and speech in the game forthright. If we start questioning if any of it might be a lie or otherwise intentionally misinforming … then the entire idea of trying to decipher the game becomes a fools errant. In my view, the game makes sure to show us clear contradictions when we are supposed to question the validity of a claim or motive.
Since the note and the Madding Hand can be interpreted without a continuity break, I don‘t think that is the case here.
@@mayhemivory5730 What I meant when I said the inquisitors were "late to the party" was that the frenzy had already spread. This glove has clearly been made with eyes of frenzy and so the ones being persecuted were likely already infected.
The inquisitors showed up and did their torturing, and the remnants made this fist weapon out of the flayed skin of their comrades. Is it possible for this flayed skin to generate frenzy eyes on it after being flayed? I find that hard to believe. There must have been a collection of frenzy eyes to plant into this weapon. Whether they came directly with the flayed skin or if they were added to the glove later is hard to determine. It's possible that they harvested the eyes from the winter-lantern flies but that would imply that at least one untouchable was already there.
In summary, I believe the untouchables showed up after the inquisition had finished it's business. They would have had to get past them to get to the manse after all. We do find some inquisitors infected with frenzy near the manse, and these may be the ones the madding hand was used on. It's also possible that the inquisitors became the untouchables after being attacked by the madding hand in a reversal of circumstances.
As for the note, I've always believed that it was written by a nobody adventurer. We are not the first to enter Midra's manse since the inquisition, as whoever left the white stone notes all over the ground clearly came here before us. We do pick the note up off a corpse after all.
@@zephyruspring Thats a perspective that I hadn't considered. See, because we only find Hornsent down there, an Inquisitor blocking the way and not even the slightest trace of Marika, Messmer or the Tarnished, I'd assumed that nobody aside form the players has ever gotten there. The corpse we find the note on could just as well have been a Hornsent servant, and the white text could have been left by Inquisitors for Inquisitors. The Tarnished use corpsewax messenges after all.
My holdup with placing the arrival of the Inquisitors after the Frenzied Flame is: where did the Frenzy come from then? We know it doesn't behave like a sickness, even though it spreads similar to one. Rather, it behaves like an idea! It needs a cause that could have triggered it, which allows it to spring forth spontaneously (Great Caravan, Shabriri). The way it can be directly transmitted even includes writing (Hyetta, Fingerprints). If the FF had appeared naturally within Midra as a result of his studies on the Finger Ruins, then that could explain it; but we don't see much related to that. And it also opens up the question again of "what did Midra do that other Hornsent could see as a crime but not his servants?"
I also personally think its actually more likely than not that the eyes on the Madding Hand formed there after the fact. To begin with, they dont really look like normal eyes to begin with, and neither do they look like they were stitched onto the gloves. And we do know that the FF can make eyes grow spontaneously: the Eyes of Yelough appears to be a plant which simply grows around the infected, and the Aging Untouchable itself grows a multitude of bulbous eyes, some even dangling from its hair. The item description also strangely makes no mention of the eyes.
I noticed something strange while looking through the various item descriptions just now: the Winterlantern Flies are described as Heralds of the Aging Untouchable. Singular - as if it was a unique entity or a phenomenon like a storm. The Aged Ones Exultation meanwhile refers to "our lord" in the plural. This kind of makes me trend more towards an idea I've had about Shabriri and how he describes himself as "being chaos". I think Hyetta, Shabriri and the Aged One/Untouchable are ideas. Thats how they can appear in people, and reappear after being killed. "You cannot kill an idea" is a concept often mentioned in relation to rebellions, but we also know it from characters like V/Vendetta, Zorro, Batman.
@@mayhemivory5730 Based on the positions of other white text stones around the map I've had a suspicion that they were left by one of the named NPCs in Miquella's group. Specifically Dryleaf Dane based on where you find Dane's armour set at the bottom of the waterfall in the Ruins of Unte, and the Dryleaf Seal nearby. Getting there in the first place requires you to go through an illusory painting in the shadow keep, and it's half way down to the darklight catacombs. I am unable to describe how he might have gotten past the inquisitors guarding the entrance to the abyssal woods though.
I don't think the note about parrying the untouchables was left by Dane though, that was somebody else, and you're right it could have been someone from the Manse. I don't subscribe to the idea that it was Midra himself though, it just doesn't fit. Also thinking about it now, the one writing that note must have had a preconceived notion that these beings were untouchable, meaning the note writer must have either encountered them before or been told about an encounter. So if it was someone from the manse then this secondary encounter must have happened before the inquisitors arrived, and who knows when the first encounter might have happened.
If it wasn't someone from the manse, then they may have gotten their preconceived notion from the white stone messages. I need to get in game and take a closer look at that corpse.
Now the maddening hand. I must concede I hadn't realised that frenzy "grapes" manifest on their own. Depending on how the eyes of yelough grow, it's not much of a stretch to suppose that the flayed skin picked up the infection while laying on the ground. But again that would mean some manner of frenzy infection was present whether the manse staff were infected with it or not. In conflict with that idea, the madding hand may have developed the frenzy grapes from contact with the one wielding the weapon, who may have developed a frenzy infection shortly after the arrival of the inquisitors, which fits the proposed timeline.
But again, if there was no frenzy present prior to the inquisitors showing up then what did Midra do to incur their wrath? Messing with the frenzied flame is forbidden in Hornsent culture, so I'm led to believe that the inquisitors went down then in response to finding out about Midra's offence. But why would the manse staff think they didn't do anything wrong?
What we've learned about Shabriri from the dlc is that he can't be a spirit. He must be something else with the power to animate dead bodies. The white ghosts of the manse staff and golden spirits of the horned warriors are also questionable. Why did the frenzy not burn them all away? Is that something only a wielder of intense frenzy can do?
I really like how the inquisitors and the golden order both brutally repressed the frenzied flame only to cause it to spread further. It really shows that for all their differences the golden order and the order of the hornsent were alike in a lot of ways and made a lot of the same mistakes.
We know from some in-game description (I forget which item exactly) that the Three Fingers were burned themselves at some point, and it's heavily implied that is the reason they seek to burn everything else. Considering the proximity to the Finger Ruins, and the environmental evidence of the Manse, is it perhaps possible that the Inquisition's burning is what got the Flame of Frenzy started in the first place? Might explain the burning/burned fingerprints all over the boss room. Though I suppose that might conflict with what is said about the Flame being "forbidden" by the Hornsent, which makes it sounds like the flame predates these events, but who knows? Additionally, I believe it's the Arcane talisman that makes reference to a "tribe" beholding a disfigured, twisted version of a deity they worshipped. "The Tribe" is a term exclusively used to denote the tribe of the traveling merchants, afaik. That could be another dot in the web, perhaps.
Bit of a tangent here, but, the details about Torrent bring me even more curiosity about the Flame. I had forgotten that Torrent's whistle burns away in the FF ending. Torrent is a spectral horse with horns (so very seemingly originates from the Land of Shadow, probably before it was Shadow). I also recall the promo material for the DLC showing Miquella astride Torrent. I'm not quite sure where all of these dots lead, but they must lead somewhere! Anyway, great video :D
i believe shabriri/naniah actually called in the hornsent at a critical time and maybe even had a say in what way they should punish midra. leading to the festering of the flame. it all fits
Love the collaborative videos. Keep up the great lore videos. 😀
Thank you so much!! 😊
That Oblivion cover playing in the background was absolutely lovely. On the subject of music, Midra's boss theme is utterly exceptional. Easily one of FromSoft's finest. The interplay between chaos and elegance is just...holy crap, it's just perfect. I really liked the concept of the frenzied flame in the base game, but Midra elevated it substantially for me.
thank you dawg 😎
The entire manse reminds me of the mountaintops of the giants. The beheaded corpses with golden plugs seem to parallel all the giant corpses that are impaled with a giant spiral needle or thorn. This might also show that the needle/thorn techniques that Miquela uses to ward off outer gods started with these suppressive golden thorns that the hornsent used with Midra and the beheaded corpses outside.
Midra seems to parallel the last giant, being a lone lord left to tend his destructive flame in solitude. There might be some benefit to leaving the lord of an outer god alive rather than killing them. For example, it might stop a new lord from being chosen. Even if this isn't the reason, Marika's purge of the giants might have been modeled after how the hornsent handled the manse.
Also, the inquisitors still at the manse might be like the fire monks who have started to worship the thing that they were supposed to suppress.
My excitement when I heard that beautiful rendition of Simple and Clean in the middle of this video!!
The spine is probably from Nanayas child who she also tried to make into a frenzied lord.
Additionally, Nanaya has double braids, similar to Marika (before the braid is cut off)
Nanaya's is cloth and Marika's is hair, but the style is the same
Awesome footage, this was a fun watch. I wonder if the implication with regards to the stone eggs under the tarp and the burning finger print marks in the boss arena is that Midra created the 3fingers by exposing Finger eggs to Frenzy?
Unrelated but I can't get it out of my head: Since the Greater Will hasn't been around for a long time, could that mean that Nokron, Nokstella, and part of Leyndell ended up underground because their Linchpin stones were destroyed? (Linchpin stones mentioned in the Shatter Stone Talisman description) Seems like Rellanna was able to smash one on her own.
Is it possible, nanaya was once a finger maiden to someone like Vyke - spared from sacrificing to her tarnished on his way to the elden throne, who at last turned back from his goal elden throne and the light itself... The description of Vyke is very close to the description of the torch :
"No other Tarnished was closer to the throne of the Elden Lord than Vyke. But without announcement, Vyke traveled far below the capital, and was scorched by the flame of frenzy.
Did he make his choice for his maiden, or did some other force lure him with suggestion?"
I had a theory that the subjugation and torture of the shamans may of been because of midra and the frenzied flame. Marika was also tortured and turned into a saint as a result of this. Marika was given her 2 fingers, maybe Nanaya or Midra was given a 3 fingers. Would also explain why none of them have horns even if their subjects did.
It would make sense for the flame to burn the tree that it came from. It would also make sense that tribriary would be a child of the tree in the flame and then die and be destroyed
Nanaya played our boy and he lost his damn mind
I think the scenes in the trailers are moments that happened rather then just showing off the dlc, including torrent riding up on the manse. Its possible torrent witnessed the frenzy flame burn a previous rider in that spot with fingerprints, idk why they'd include hay if it ddnt have something to do with torrent, and I think Miyazaki said torrent looks the way it does because it got burnt at some point. I still wonder if the scene with miquella is him breaking his rune or something, those scenes seem important and most characters are in different spots by the time we come around.
Also I think the abandoned church may have been a functioning church, before sinking down to the abyss, I might make a video showing a bunch of different places that look they sank from their original positions, I always wondered why such big cliff drops could exist randomly throughout the lands, but I'm certain now the lands used to look more normal, before starting to sink. The easiest areas to see it are the cliffs looking down at shaded castle, the minor erdtree near it collapsed a bridge, and behind that it looks like the erdtree sank the whole shadowlands, like the shadowlands got pushed down while the giant tree that probably weighs over a billion pounds grew. The preceptors or astrologers hat, the one that has orbitals under the brim, it shows the entire solar system spinning around the erdtree like its the sun. The mask has a freaky snake tree eclipse thing going on reaching up into the hat in a way that it looks like spacetime bends around it, I think one of the orbitals shows a crash course with the tree too.
But theres no items describing any of this, just me looking at the underside of a hat and wondering why the world looks the way it does.
Okay so.. Wild idea. The discussion chamber covered in hay.. serrated blades.... yeah thats a butcher hall. Hay to soak up fluids and blades to saw things into pieces. So what if... this is the room where those hidden away fingers were taken, while still being attached to something bigger, and this is where they got cut off dismembered etc in some kind of experiment/ritual. Just a thought.
One thing I would say about the frenzied flame is I'm not sure if it's just emotional vulnerability - all the people affected by it seem to contract in some sort of religious context - the merchants are condemned as heretics, Midra is a religious figure, the three fingers have their connection to the other fingers that are supposedly divine envoys, so I've wondered for a while if it's connected to righteous punishment that is ultimately undeserved (which is common place in real world religious inquisitions)
I love the idea that Shabiri is their child.
13:11 could also assume they didn’t kill Medra because they did know he could escape as a spirit. Keep in mind Shabriri is a body hoper and death is only a transformative process in Elden ring.
Ps. It could be theorized you could capture spirits in spritestones (those holed stone with some having fingerprints) but they are rediscovered ritual implements the Hornsent so far use them as homing bombs💣 .
15:18 o7 soldier. Looks like you got delivered destined death.
I have a theory about how midra discovered or at least why he investigated the flame of frenzy, and I think the winter lanterns are a signpost because in bloodborne frenzy is extremely similar but within context the cause is eldritch knowledge. We know the flame of frenzy elden ring has something to do with a resentment of creation and references the 'greater will making a mistake'. I wonder if midra and his cohorts delved too deeply, we've seen his library is vast and he even has a hall for debate, perhaps they struck upon arcane knowledge that illuminated the frame of frenzy to them. And instead of being rapidly overcome they were quietly seduced through study, and only became truly afflicted once the inquisitors came down on them with brutal violence.
Midra was a very good husband. Or consort. Or companion.
Midra's is so cool and his fight is peak, I definitely recommend fighting him solo
I don’t fight anything solo, trade off for being an absolute shrimp of a woman
@@kitetales that’s also really fun
Another thing I wonder is what's the deal with his little prayer mat? Like it's got weights on the corners to stop it rolling up and he appears to have been on there for years, and I wonder why, like maybe it's just to help him endure via meditation but, why would the inquisitors grant him that when they showed such brutality to him otherwise?
For the blindness video, another interesting item description is Dane's hat.
"The sun-faded and lightly soiled hat of Dryleaf Dane. Worn low over the eyes, it obscures the wearer's vision. Meeting the gaze of another can overcome the senses, often leading to the downfall of those who would walk the noble and solitary seekers' path."
I guess this is just more "blind faith" stuff, maybe indicating that vision can lead to empathy, which can make zealous commitment more difficult.
As an aside, the hat itself appears to be a Greek petasos, which is the same type of hat that Hermes wears. What that might mean I do not know.
I’m looking forward to your video on sight and blindness. Something I think about pretty often is that I think all of the consumable rune items are eyeballs… specifically, maybe they are seals of grace given to Marika’s chosen. When Messmer removes his eye and destroys it, it makes the same noise as when we consume a rune item. I also corroborate this with the descriptions of Marika’s rune and the sore/scar seals. How many of the demigods or Tarnished have these false eyes of power or grace? and why did some reject them?
That is such a great find about the same sound hint in consuming runes and Messmer’s eye!
I think it’s rather simple most of the storylines in the DLC mirror base game so clearly Nayana is the “Shabriri” to Midra kinda the same as how the flame of frenzy was provoked in the merchants
I believe Nanaya was pregnant and was shabriri attempting to birth a lord of frenzy but the baby was too weak and died young so that’s the small spine she’s holding but the madness caused by that infected Midra but his old frail body wasn’t strong enough to be the lord shabriri wanted so he told Midra to endure and left her body to find a new vessel
Simple and clean playing in the background. 👍🏻
Wake up dear enigmatic babe new Kite Tails just dropped
about the church, i believe all midra was a priest shaman, and events involving the abyssal woods happened before marika had descended to godhood.(evident by no marika statue in the church) if midra is related to marika, he would know about the fingers and their connection to the Greater Will, but midra had been tricked by the THREE fingers, and the hornsent had ruined the manse in spite of marika after her ascension
I’m partial to the theory that Nanaya was there to preserve Midra. It makes more sense, especially after all the details you’ve pointed out. She didn’t want him to fester or ripen for the perfect moment. She just didn’t want such an evil released.
Which is why Midra asked for forgiveness when he removed the seal from himself. She just wasn’t there to sooth his pain anymore. 🥺 I would have folded as well.
Midra's medalion looks like the symbol of gidion, they could be his parents.
Oooooo! Midra theory from you! Excited before I even watch.
Hi John!! 💙
@@kitetales Hello again, Kite!🩷
I’m so happy your channel continues to grow. And this DLC added so many layers of lore to Elden Ring. This is particularly cool, examining commentaries on this aspect of the story.
Somthing worth noting; Every Frenzy Incant explicitly originates from the Three Fingers, and Midras incant is "in praise of Midra", implicitly originating from the Three Fingers too.
I may just be seeing things, but the corpse of "Nanaya" or at least the corpse holding that torch, appears to have a distended belly, not from hunger, but from dying while many months pregnant.
The one thing I question most about the theories coming from the dlc is the assumption that Merika was herself a shaman by bloodline/birth. If so, that means all shaman are also Numen, but that wouldn't make much sense if Numen as a race are uncommonly born, given how many jars got filled.
I tend to think that Merika is a Numen who was raised in the shaman village, thus being a shaman culturally rather than by birth. She wouldn't even have needed to be born there, since the lore tying her to the village talks about her 'first steps' rather than her birth.
Given that, I like the idea that she was born at the Manse, maybe of a Numen father (Midra's pretty old and Numen are long lived!) and a shaman mother, and when the Frenzy started taking hold she was shuffled to the shaman village to live with her mother's relatives in safety.
I also don't think Shabriri was in control of Nanaya when Midra fell in love with her. I could definitely see him being in control at some point after and cursing Midra to 'endure' though, that makes sense to me. But Shabriri doesn't seem like he'd be quite suave enough to pull off being a maiden worth as much devotion as Midra shows to Nanaya!
Hello !
Thank you for this amazing video and calm shiny voice.
I want to share my personnal theory I did not see anywhere else, but maybe its because its dumb and have a massive counter argument to refuse it.
Nanaya is the Maiden of Midra. She occupy the same role as Melina with us in the main story (maybe Nanaya is a sister of Melina ? We dont know the exact number of siblings here).
Maybe Midra was inflicted with the Power of Frenzied flame, and as a member of the Gold Lineage, Nanaya begged him to refuse to succumb and to become the Frenzied Flame Lord, as Melina did for us.
Midra does, in my eyes, look like a very loving man to his dead wife’s vow. He knows he could abandon his curse and become the Lord he was meant and condemn to be. But his love for his wife and maiden was stronger and he chose to resist. Maybe we (as the player) arrive and trigger his giving up, and we are meant here to stop a becoming Frenzied Flame Lord he could be. (When we die on him, the cutscene of his transformation starts again, meaning if we really loose, in a lore manner, the world is doomed by this Chaos Lord reign.
I dont know if Midra is a tarnished, but it feels so obvious for me how he his resisting to the Flame as we did with Melina.
Looking at all of the horrible crap that was going on throughout the Land of Shadow, I'm kind of wondering if revenge against the Hornsent was just a bonus and the real reason for Marika's crusade was to seal off the entire region.
10:35
>kidnap big hand from finger ruins
>saw fingers off of it
>????
>profit
Really good theories here. Spitballing but if I had to hazard a guess, there’s a chance Midra was punished for studying the finger ruins. This would explain the presence of stone fingers and eggs.
When the fingers arrived the hornsent would’ve seen them as anathema and eventually heretical there’s no evidence of fingers even being tacitly tolerated. The Manse seems like it was a glowing, shining beacon of study and research. Midra being an academic would’ve been intrigued and maybe even took the “forbidden” fingers in secret to study. As emissaries of a God foreign to their belief system, this would represent the ultimate heresy but perhaps it had not been publicly announced yet that the fingers were forbidden. This feels like a defcon 5 situation where the hornsent wanted to make the ultimate example out of Midra, torturing him for all eternity.
The flame of frenzy and its effects would’ve been foreign to the hornsent as the chaos flame/three fingers seem to act in response to the activity of the two fingers, suggesting they arrived in the lands between together following Metyr’s arrival.
So it may be possible through one of their very typical punishments they unleashed frenzy on these lands which were originally beautiful as seen in the paintings of the Manse, and in their fear locked the whole region away to fester.
The Hornsent seemingly “oopsed” themselves into extinction.
Okay so I closed my eyes _hint hint_ for a moment and saw the following: Shabriri's empty eye sockets eventually entertained and harboured the frenzied flame.
And Mohg's been able to see to Formless Mother via his gouged eye. At least one of which are confirmed to be an outer god.
An entity thought to be so inaccessible, deeper than invisible. Also Astel, born somewhere in the voids, forms an eye within her entire skull where mortal brains usually reside, basically saying "vision is superior to thinking". There's some Egyptian literature to support that claim.
Midra, on the other hand, discovered the frenzy elsewhere and his Flame of Frenzy description says there were others before him.
On another note, I'm wondering about the timeline of it all. As far as I can tell, Shabriri was condemned by the Golden Order / people of Leyndell - under which the victims of his slander are buried - and that's when he was punished and could possibly invite the frenzied flame. How could he then be present for Nanaya, alleged mother to Marika, co-founder of the Golden Order which then judged him?
Even though he can shift bodies, the frenzied flame part was softlocked for him until much later. But the thing itself seems to be everpresent, and only reaching the 'critical mass' of it is the real question.
However there's the description of the Greatsword of Damnation's Ash of War that's giving me headaches: "There is something of the Golden Order in the sight of those fixed upon this crux."
Something of the Golden Order, huh? And given that the sword was administered by the hornsent...
A golden sharp item that is meant to ward off a terrible and unknown disease but falling short and ultimately unleashing something truly horrible?
Sounds way too Miquellesque~
It's interesting Nanaya's corpse still has black hair. She didn't grow old
But also if Midra and Nanaya are Marika's parents and Nanaya is a shaman woman, then maybe the Hornsent purging the manse was why they sought out the shaman village to begin with. As they tortured the shamans for any information on the frenzied flame, they found their flesh would meld with the other flesh.
I still like the idea that Nanaya and the grandmothers were Numen. So theoretically, the shamans could be Numen offshoots and Midra and Nanaya wouldn't have to be specifically Marika's parents to have started the torture of the shaman village.
Or instead, I saw another video that suggested the other shaman village, with the beheaded grandmother and the tree that bends down, may be pointing to the manse and indicates that the grandmother transferred her soul into Nanaya. And Nanaya is using Midra to enact an eventual revenge on the Hornsent. Though that does presuppose several other theories to be true as well.
Mental illness. Madness is what we cannot understand and mental illness is the inability to understand an aspect of yourself. And the maddness of feeling alone (knowing you are the only one who can affect reality [as you know it]) drives your mad. This is why Marika fell to maddness. Knowing You were the reason You failed and knowing you can never escape that is something heavier than some can bear. We can only endure for so long.
Found a new ASMR channel. Soothing voice and deep lore, two birds, one stone.
I must be really dumb because I could not for the life of me find the torch. Also, if Shabriri did possess Nanaya, that means he canonically took backshots just to create a lord of frenzy.
You have a nice fingerprint at 10:30. 😮
If she were Shabriri she would've not told him to endure. Shabriri is all "chaos takes the world" and if he had the chance to get someone to burn a lot of stuff then he would let them and push them so I don't feel it's Shabriri. I feel she succumbed eventually probably with the death of her child. The torch says it belonged to a lord not a man. It wasn't Midra's. He has his still and it's not that small. And if it was her kid's and the kid got the Flame in the womb or after then just like everyone with the Flame they're referred to as Lord and when it was born or whenever it got it it probably couldn't handle the flame so since the flame is behind the eyes in the head it probably burned the skull away leaving the spinal column in the remains for a most likely Frenzied Nanaya to fashion her torch from.
Can't wait for that F. Flame video. It and the interplay of it and the golden order are my favorite parts of the lore. So hell yeah on that
About that little church, from the painting, isn't it strange that it has one of the two still active altars that converts the stone scabbard sword into a Sword of Darkness? It can also change a Sword of Light. And if you go back to the altar at Rauh, you can do it over again for a reconversion! It's peculiar that in this place in particular is one of these most esoteric expressions of power that existed in the same timeframe as that of the Crucible, or moreso the Hornsent Religion of Enir Ilim. Why would it be there? Why would it have relation to a place Marika would have been as well? I can't help but feel I'm missing something with that.
Could the Aging Untouchables be Oracle Envoys for the flame of frenzy?
It is said Oracle Envoys appear to herald the arrival of a new god or age and play large horns. I got the strange impression that the Aging Untouchables wielded their weapons like a conductor's baton, and you find them near these strange bells in the grass which are musical in nature.
I think nanaya is the original handmaiden for like and the torch is his spinal column
excited for the next video
i love this!! certified banger from Kite!
So, I Was waiting to see you post something on this one. The way I've put his story together is that he showed up there to help deal with the spread of the frenzied flame. I feel like Nanaya was persuaded by the fingers to help Midra become the Lord. I feel like she's not Shabriri but one of the first like Shabriri. like a prophet for the flame or something. I also think the Torch is the unborn Child. her stomach isn't that big in the chair. The note you find speaking of touching one of the untouchables was Midra. Nanaya piqued his interest by showing him the knowledge of the 3 fingers. so, he decided to figure out how to touch one. My proof on this is all the servants say Lord Midra. If this was someone else, it would say "I must report this to Lord Midra". Midr'as spine is also intact so there's no way that's his. and the child would have come out as frenzied born. The hornsent helped Midra get down there to have him deal with the flame and instead he become fascinated with it due to his scholar ways. to the Hornsent that's the largest heracy in the world. I feel like Nanaya is the biggest cause to the spread. it was already there. but when the fingers were brought in it changed the whole ball game. Love to hear what others think as well! :P
I have been calling him MID Rah for so long and am instantly taken by the way you call him ME Dra and will hence forth use this every time in reference to him😂
YES!! Conversion successful! 😊🔥
Personally, i find it more likely that Nanaya was a Death Bed Companion, like Fia.. It could be that the tiny spine Nanaya was holding was perhaps her child born already infected by the Frenzy Flame, that was put to death by the inquisitors. The whole scene reminded me more of a tragic mother holding the remains of her dead infant.
Midra was seeking knowledge that eventually came back to bite him, resulting in tragedy for him, his family and his people. Nanaya was asking him to endure. Since we know what happened when he finally gave up, i find it difficult to believe she wanted him to become the Lord of Frenzy Flame. This is a tragic story and i don't see any villains in it, other than a misguided man who was seeking the forbidden knowledge..
oooh uploaded 2 minutes ago, right after i finished making lunch, now i have something to watch while eating :D
Lunch!! You must be on the other side of the planet from me!
@@kitetales Australia! :D
Also anyone notice how the head of the lord of frenzy flame and the fleeting microcosm look very similar to each other? I feel like there’s a connection here no one is talking about
Kitetales do you have a discord community or any particular lore communities people can join or you'd recommend??
Also, goes without saying, but excellent video. Love the format of trying out community theories, very fun to speculate on :)
i really get more questions regarding melina with the lore we learn about the frenzied flame burning spirits. how is it that Melina is still around after the world gets burnt to the ground in the frenzied flame ending? unless she got reborn somehow? we know she is a spirit during our adventures together but the fact she did not " die " when we pull that ending off is super confusing to me.
your videos are awesome!
Thank you so much!!
...considering shamans have some connection to spirits, a shaman being a deathbed companion isnt a stretch....then to think if Nanaya had died at some point..Shabriri could have have taken over and no one would have possibly known? Maybe the connection to spirits, made the shaman/deathbed companion an even easier target...
My only issue with the marika parents theory is that Shaman village is supposed to be her home...unless its a like an origin home? But she was born in the manse and learned about her culture there?....also...the 3 fingers being summoned, nanaya being shabriri...i cant help but think of Marikas empyrean influence came from that....we never did see Marikas 2 fingers (unless its the roundtable)
Midra and the Promised Consort are the only bosses I haven't beaten yet. 🙃