@@CenteredTarnished shes a dragon though right? Not a snake. Dragons are eternal, like her title, and all snakes descend from them aaaaand godrick calls the dragon a true born heir implying the dragon is of correct stock and was birthed naturally rather than some erdtree shenanigans. And how could i forget Radagon = a dRagon
What if the snake skin is actually where Marika gave birth to Messmer and that's where he shed out of the snake form after getting a blessing from Marika to allow him to retain his "Human" form
Don’t forget that Hewg was personally tasked with making weapons to slay gods by Marika, and he helps out Roderika due to her reminding him of someone with a similar gift for tuning spirits long ago. Someone with very similar eyes to Roderika. Not golden eyes, but a peculiar shade of blue. And Radagon + Marika sounds a lot like Roderika.
If it was Radagon and Marika it would start with an M. I hate to go too GRRM on my theory but Ranni quite literally became a spirit and while her actual body had Radagon's hair she easily could have had Carian blue eyes even before she was a doll.
I like this a lot. That being said, Melina shares Marika’s own words in 3rd person, but promises us Destined Death directly from a 1st person perspective. It feels a lot like the power of the GEQ was sealed within Melina like the Abyssal serpent was sealed with Messmer
I like this theory a lot. It feels like the game does everything in its power to point us towards Melina as the GEQ, but the time lines never quite fit together. Like Maliketh defeating the god skins and the GEQ sealing the rune of death, but if Melina were to be the GEQ that throws a wrench into things as she says she was born in the erdtree for the purpose to be kindling and her being the daughter of Marika doesn't make sense she'd have Maliketh sent after her. It could be that the GEQ was a god of the hornsent who delivered onto gods destined death with her Apostles and Nobles (whealding black flame as their god killing weapon power by the rune of death), who Marika used to take over the religion killing the other gods to plant her self as superior, and it wouldn't be the first time Marika is called a traitor in the DLC. It would even line up with Messmers purges Maliketh defeats the Godskins at same time as Messmer begins to purge.
Not necessarily a seal. There is grafting in the ER universe. The practice of gaining someone's abilities by attaching their body parts unto yourself. It's unclear if only Marika's descendants can do it due to her shaman origins but since Melina is her daughter it's possible that she is borrowing someone's power by having transplanted their eyeball in her left eye socket. Though, I honestly think it's Maliketh's eye since the beast eye he gives you is violet and Blaidd who is another shadowbound beast has violet eyes. Plus, the tattoo on Melina's closed eye is that of a claw.
@@Demokazecould she be our shadow? The opening cut scene has the sound of the bell wondering mausoleums that duplicate shard holder remembrances. Not sure what it means.
And she makes sure to differentiate between Marika and Her Mother. And if we took the Gloam Eyed Queen and Queen Marika as "different side of the same coin" parallel to for example Malenia and Miquella, then there is a possibility that they're siblings from same mother at least. And to add my imagination here, that's maybe why Marika joined her existances with Radagon so that She's became parallel with Radagon instead and to cast away Gloam Eyed Queen, like she cast away Rune of Death.
As a parent of fraternal twins i dont think ive heard it mentioned that Fraternal twins run in the family on the mothers side and Marika went on to have 2 sets of Fraternal twins. I think her having a twin isn't impossible at all
Marika divesting these aspects of herself into all her children paralleling Miquella, cursed with youth, attempting to divest his aspects across his mother’s homeland and the site of the original cataclysm she caused is so sad.
the algorithm pushed your channel my way after finishing nearly all of Vaatividya's, Smoughtown's, and FatBrett's Elden Ring content over the course of the last year or so. between all of those watch hours & 9 playthroughs of the game myself across nearly 500 hours, i thought i had a pretty good handle on what Elden Ring was all about. then, yesterday, i came across your videos, and spent four hours binging them. you've brought an intriguing & unique alternate perspective for theory crafting & fundamental understanding of the lore through your videos. well thought out, well structured, well done. subscribed! excited to see where you take us next. i'll be watching the rest of your catalog in the interim! cheers.
You can also tie in the Windmill Village as a massive thread here, we have the Godskin Apostle amongst the Celebrants who skin villagers as part of their festival. It is “tacitly tolerated” by the Erdtree because we can point to Marika’s actions as the Gloam Eyed Queen during the Godskin Hunt, and even further back to Marika witnessing the skinning of the shaman for the festival’s origins. We can see that the Celebrants’ eyes glow red when we draw their aggro, mirroring the red rune of death/Marika becoming the GEQ upon witnessing her peoples’ slaughter. The Celebrants’ weapons grant traces of runes when landing attacks, indicating there is something of Marika to be gleaned from this practice. Even the windmills themselves signal a cycle, casting a shadow of perpetuating trauma. You’ve tied this mystery up quite nicely and in good time considering the amount of loose threads Miyazaki has left us, there’s so much left to answer still so I can’t wait to see where the community goes from here. My biggest question now is how Marika gained the power of the Black Flame as a shaman. Did the flame sort of spark within her when she witnessed the Hornsent murdering shaman (the event fractured Marika leaving her empty inside, perhaps enabling her to become a vessel for the God of Death and later the Elden Ring?), or did she have to steal the power from the previous God of Death/the Twinbird, and if so, how? Edit: Been thinking about it and given that the Black Flame sigil resembles a fingerprint, maybe Marika received the Black Flame from Metyr/the Greater Will in a similar way to how the Three Fingers bestow the Frenzied Flame? Marika and the GEQ are both chosen as Empyreans and the Rune of Death is part of the Elden Ring so she couldn’t have been able to slay gods without first being noticed by the GW. Maybe Metyr is wounded not just to sever her connection to the GW, but to prevent further use of the Black Flame and enable Marika to summon the Elden Beast to wield the ER/enact her vision of the Erdtree? Metyr is a mother and the Black Flame allows Marika to birth thr Godskins, the Elden Beast has its golden flame for what it’s worth, I’m just not sure how the god of death before Marika would have lost its power. The lore of the mariners, Helphen, Twinbird, etc. throws a wrench into things. Maybe the Twinbird is an alt-Placidusax in the same way that GEQ is effectively an alt-Marika? Shoutout Zayf the Scholar for the new video on the Windmill Village!
I personally assumed that the Windmill Village celebration is a recent thing, something that is NOT tolerated by the Golden Order, but they do it because they are confident that Morgott can't really enforce the laws that well outside his own walls. I also assumed that Rykkard might have played a role, as he was originally supposed to persecute the pagans of the Lands Between, but ultimately ended up embracing their faith.
It is likely that the flame that GEQ inherited or found was not black originally. If you read about the dead birds (i dont remember exactly) it says that the flame has lost its color with time.
@@Vapor.Steve77 if you combine the pale blue ghostflame with the dark red of Destined Death, you get the color of the Tibia Mariners and grave violets.
I was actually just farming celebrants earlier and got the both the normal and blue unaltered festive garb, which have capes. The much more common gold garb has an Erdtree symbol on it, while the blue garb, said to be worn by the maidens at the center of the festival, features the godskin's magic insignia on top with expanded iconography connected on the bottom. I'm sure it means something, but it's hard to say what. In line with this video's theory, it could be that the festival originally represented "Nice" Marika re-asserting herself over the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but then the godskin noble at the top lured the celebrants back to the old ways?
I think something that can be furthered looked into/hammered on is the connection between Millicent and Melania and how Millicent is Melanias lost purpose? And how that ties back into the demigods being offshoots of Marika
I think i get the story now. Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen and when she wanted to take revenge on the hornsent, she started the god hunt and took "gods" away from the hornsent. (This is before gold arose, because one NPC, Ymir, still has their eyes colored purple) She, along with Maliketh, needed to make a new body for Marika and a special thing destined death can do is kill body and soul, so Marika killed the body of the Gloam Eyed Queen and had a new body formed so that Gold and rise. Looking at it this way gives more explanation for godskin placements, they're keeping secrets hidden from us. Next to the first church of Marika, we find the spirit caller cave that we get the swaddling cloth from At the liurnia tower, a noble stands in our way to keep us from the hollow brand from Ranni's body, which might be a secret Marika found and doesn't want people to know about about. In the church of eglay, there's a big snake skin, and if the Godskin have any relation to mesmer, that's another secret, so a noble is placed to keep you away from it. An apostle guards the queen's great sword and another kind just vibes at the windmill village ABSURDLY CLOSE TO THE CAPITAL. And finally, Farum Azula, where they didn't get the memo that Marika wants to die so.......her kids try to defend her with their lives, making sure you can't get to Maliketh or destined death.
I think it's important to explore the themes surrounding the snake in Bonnie Village, and its connection to religious imagery. In a somewhat controversial version of what happened in the garden of Eden, known as the "Serpent Seed", a snake *seduces* Eve and the result of their union was Cain, and people destined for damnation (demons, essentially). Meanwhile, Adam's children were destined for eternal life. Marika and Radagon might symbolize both Eve and Adam, while the Gloam Eyed Queen may symbolize Lilith. If Eve and Adam are fused together in Elden Ring, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Lilith was fused as well, all into one being (like what the Hornsent were doing to people in jars). Marika's children, to me, seem to be aspects (or previously fused people) splitting off of her, like saplings falling off a tree and planting themselves to create new trees. Marika and Radagon are capable of mating, like a form of asexual reproduction, like budding, and instead of creating something new, their children are cast-off aspects of themselves. Going back to the Christian imagery, since all Eve's children were destined for damnation, or cursed essentially, this would explain why all of Marika's children are cursed in some way. What I think may be suggested, is that this snake (the younger God-devouring serpent) manipulated Marika by promising her power, in exchange for the death of the gods. If we liken the snake to Satan, or Loki from Norse mythology, both these gods are enemies of God(s), and so would have that motive. Both Marika and the snake get their revenge. In exchange, Marika would bear the snake's child - Messmer (Cain). Cain would kill his brother and then be cursed by God, banished to his own realm where he creates his own city, similar to how we find Messmer. Miquella casts away his love in a pit of death (St. Trina) and she is like a whole different person. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen might be the aspect of Malenia that sided with the serpent, whose children are the godskins; Marika splits this aspect from herself and then slays it/her. This would also explain Marika's later fear and abandonment of Messmer, due to his connection the the snake and the gloam-eyed queen, the curse that it bears, and Messmer being spawned from the desire to kill the gods - which Marika herself becomes. I think the snake manipulating her in exchange for revenge and power is the "seduction" and turning her back against the Hornsent (and possibly the Gloam-Eyed Queen) is the Betrayal from which Gold arose. The Elden Beast is found at the top of the spiraling tower constructed from the bodies of thousands of Hornsent. The bottom, fracturing souls and individuals. The top, all fused together in the divine crucible, is saint, or godhood. Godhood is achieved through the fusing of thousands of souls, like Marika in the flesh jars. Then, casting off of the undesirable parts while keeping the desirable ones, creates a true god - Marika's children are her cast off parts, many of which she abandons and slays (the mausoleum demigods) and Miquella casts off parts of themselves to achieve godhood as well.
So much in the DLC is about embracing. "In the embrace of Messmer's flames" Miquella sought to "embrace the whole of it", Romina embraced the scarlet rot and so on. The word embrace is used many times in the DLC and the scadutree is being embraced itself. and in the base game the description for "Black Flame's Protection " says the apostles were all "embraced" by the GEQ. I forget what description (rememberance for Miquella?) That says one refused to be embraced by Miquella. I think it's the shadow tree. The thorns are meant to repell all. And the scadutree avatar gives us Miquella's broken great rune. He was unable to charm and embrace the shadow tree. The shadow of Marika basically. Funnily enough Marika is the devouring mother archetype and GEQ is the kind loving embracing archetype. Marika abandoned that nurturing side. That embracing side of herself to rise to godhood maybe?
So wait... if Marika shattered herself when she removed the Rune of Death, isn't it possible that the GEQ was also removed along with it? Think about it: The demi-gods are shardbearers. They give you their Great Runes when they are defeated. So why wouldn't the GEQ be attached to the Rune of Death?
I’m not saying this theory is correct, but if it is: then Maliketh defeating her would just be like Blaidd turning on Ranni. In this case, her assigned Empyrean shadow would be keeping her in check. As Marika, she’d seal destined death to make sure it didn’t happen again. That’s *if*
Now it makes sense why the game never says Marika ordered him to fight the Gloam Eyed Queen, or that the GEQ fought the Golden Order, or that the GEQ was killed. It's just: Maliketh defeated her.
Reposting my comment from the original video: I think there’s a lot of merit to this. Most of the outer gods don’t really seem to have a presence until after Marika. This, combined with the revelation that her people were all shoved into jars as part of the hornsent ritual, suggests to me that Marika would be the source of these as we know them in the lands between and their existence as such is made possible by that jar ritual itself. It’s now my firm belief that Marika was created, or perhaps more accurately evolved, in a jar as part of these rituals, and that everything we see in the world would have been shoved into that jar as part of her mixture and she was the only Shaman capable of bringing it to order, which is why the Greater Will chose her to take over and end the chaotic crucible era. All roads do point to Marika and this jar process. Imagine: 1 part death bird, 1 part snake (accidentally the abyssal serpent) 1 part fire giant, 1 part follower of the scarlet bud, 1 part blood fiend, And more… Suddenly we have a mix that explains Radagon and his embarrassment over his hair and the association with the fire giants. The fire giants provide context for messmers flame, and doubly so with the corrupting influence of the abyssal serpent. The god of rot manifesting itself in one of her children. The formless mother and its affinity for mohg, and even morgott (despite his attempts to suppress it) The GEQ being born of the mix of the flame within from the fire giant and the death birds… (or something along those lines) And all of this made possible by her slowly shedding these amalgamated elements of her torturous creation as a jar saint/empyrean. I like to think of the body she pulls the threads from as the first god… she’s taking the ring for herself… the threads are the more chaotic and wavy portions of the original ring, and she’s taking her first step to convert them into the rigid lattice that would later be associated with radagon… Okay enough ranting. Great video
i think you can take that even further to say that marika sought to remove all of those aspects that made her a god without losing her godhood. she thought she could pick and choose what she could keep from the jar ritual, but as we see the outer gods pretty much all affect her offspring in some way (except for frenzied flame). in a way, it’s about trauma. part of the healing from trauma comes with accepting that part of you that’s been affected by the trauma. marika thought she didn’t have to do that because she was a god.
I got the Feeling that the Scarlet Bud (saint) and the bloodfiend both discovertt the outer good through the suffering that came with the genocid of Marika / messmer
Based on having the pots in shadow and their tomb, I thought the game had been implying that marika was created by the hornsent as they attempted to create a new god, mixing her parts, an empyrean, with parts of other people and perhaps even giant body parts, like a witches brew. “Flesh of the empyrean to meld it, humans as a medium and the hair of a giant for strength.” But I don’t think the hornsent expected marika to be able to control and split off the constituent parts that had been merged with her in her “crucible”/ pot, nor that her connection to the fingers, a part of “the great” would allow her to control the power of The Crucible and reshape it. I don’t know if I agree that marika and radagon were “originally” one being before being put in the pot, but the “Marika” that emerged most certainly was one being that contained the two personalities, and all the children after that may represent their inability to cope/ deal with their identity as a merged being that simultaneously is like everything else in the world (with bits and pieces of the orders and people/ animals/ spirits that wander the land) and yet is also the god that does not wish to be like everything else, and probably fears becoming something else.
since the DLC ive bought the theory that marika and radagon are the result of a successful jar ritual, melding people together to create a "saint". It follows perfectly, then, that a third personality of marika emerged. Radagon is dedicated to the golden order, GEQ is opposed, and marika is caught in the middle. Ive also seen another creator, scum mage infa, postulate that ranni is a piece of marika that escaped godhood's prison, which ties in perfectly with your idea that all her children were fractures of herself. Edit: in fact i had always wondered how GEQ had the power of destined death at all, and why plucking it from the elden ring and sealing it away denied it from her, its because GEQ was also in posession of the elden ring! wow, how did we not realize this sooner, it makes perfect sense!
The theme of duality is littered throughout this game. I think it only makes sense to infer that the game's 'main character' has a dual identity as well. Something I realized while watching this video. In the trailer, we see the two shades of sky when Marika ascends to Godhood. I believe now that this is meant to hint at this duality. One sky, tinted gloam, and the other of gold. Perhaps the betrayal mentioned in the trailer was the betrayal of the Godskins, killing them all after she had them do her bidding. Edit: I thought of more to add to this theory. Just like St. Trina, the Gloam-Eyed Queen was Marika's other self that she rid herself of before ascending to Godhood. Then after ascending, found her consort Radagon to exact her reign (just as Miquella did with Radahn). I also believe the theme of purple is meant to connect St Trina and The Gloam-Eyed Queen in this way.
I'm stuck between enjoying listening to the lore and ppl fitting pieces together while also not caring because i don't think there exists a cohesive storyline that will provide full answers. The lack of a fully fleshed out story takes the wind out of my sails when it comes to investigating it on my own
So I am among the many that wanted Gloam-Eyed Queen content from the one and only DLC ... only to find myself presented with a revelation from you that akin to Marika = Radagon, Marika = GEQ. Just brilliant theorycrafting ... and as a Persona fan (and academic besides), your psychoanalytical approach to Elden Ring is exciting ~ It's incredible that academic disciplines like psychoanalysis and archeology can quite faithfully theorycraft from Elden Ring because *that* degree of thought has been put into it by the developers. This incredible depth is why Elden Ring deserved to be nominated for its story. Edit: I'm already planning a playthrough where the Tarnished is a fracture of the slain GEQ, so on behalf of the 200-300 hours that are about to be slain, thank you ~ >ω
Greetings, fellow Persona fan! :) I actually made mention of the series to CT a while back, and promised him my thoughts on my Persona 3R experience. I made the comment regarding that experience here in the comment section :)
FS Dev: "I have a little bit of space over here, any ideas what I should do with it?" Miyazaki: "Put a fuckin' snake corpse there." FS Dev: "Oh! Is there going to be some sort of story or idea behind it?" Miyazaki: "Nah I just wanna fuck with everyone."
I love this theory! Best explanation for her pulling the gold threads from the godskin in the trailer. Can't wait to hear about the different representations of her in the statues!
I think if Miquella had to get rid of St. Trina, why not Marika had to do the same with the Gloam-eyed Queen? Miquella took the body of Mogh to bring Radahn back., and we know Marika took Godfrey and Radagon as consorts, but Marika was Radgon, which this fact fool everyone. We see Miquella hugging Radahn at second phase, but he looks like a spirit possessing his body. Perhaps Marika is doing something similar with Radagon and Radagon is just claiming his body back. Marika is a god, but even gods need to enforce their supremacy in the material world somehow, and this facts came to face Miquella, as their failures with the Malenia, the Haligtree, and Godwyn became evident, and the only path to godhood was his mother walked.
Radagon is merica. Radagon created the physical world and merica is like its spirit. They are the blending of the gnostic concepts of the demiurge and sophia.
@@curtisfarley6558 From what I know and understand, that isnt exactly correct. The Greater Will gave Merika godhood, and that godhood came from Radagon. Radagon acted as the anchor of her godhood, and is why he survived when she died from the attack by The Greater Will. It is supported in this with what Miquella did. They need a host body to govern from, Radahn for Miquella. They are disembodied otherwise, thus requiring a unity of two souls in the same form, but one of them being more prominent over the other, Miquella over Radahn, Merika over Radagon. But they all have their times of control overall. Thus is how they could act independently too. Miquella saw that independence as why there were failings in The Lands Between, thus he sought a consort strong enough to overcome all others, Radahn, but he needed him to be susceptible to Miquella's charm, to be completely controlled by him to remove that independence in Radahn, as before Radahn rejected Miquella's call.
My theory is like Radagon, the Gloam eyed Queen was originally a part Marika that she discard and it gained a sense of self. I think the Gloam Eyed Queen represents Marika's sense of motherhood and sense of need to cause death, the gloam eyed queen nurtures her children while Marika discards her children if they don't further her goals and Markia became a god built on the death of her people and the hornsent so she removed the part of herselt that caused all that death. Also I believe the godslayer greatsword has a design element most overlook, it has a spiral shaped coiling blade that unwinds at the tip, just like the hornsent spiral imagery and its shape also looks like 2 coiling snakes coated in flame separating from each other just like Marika separated the Gloam Eyed queen and Radagon who I believe is the manifested persona of her sense of order.
If a woman is born along with a twin, she is much more likely to have twins if she decides to have kids. Marika has had at least 2 confirmed sets of twins, so her being a twin herself makes a lot of sense.
It is very likely that the gloam eyed queen was to Marika, what St. Trina is to Miquella. At the same time. I think she´s been reborn as Melina. Melina says she´s not born from a mother. But that she was born at the erdtree. She doesn´t seem to have her memories right. And her body is burned and the capital is full of ashes. I mean a lot of characters seemed to be reborn. In the end radagon had the rune of the unborn. Maybe they used it o Melina / gloam eyed queen.
makes perfect sense as well. Marika sealed way destined death and "killed" the GEQ which is why melina is now "burned and bodiless" and "lost her purpose long ago"
Would that still make her and Messmer siblings? Because the description of Messmer's Kindling states "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." And the only candidate who fits that description would be Melina, implying that she is the daughter of Marika.
@@NicDotNic "bore a vision of fire" is pretty much what the GEQ had in mind with the god slaying flame. I get what your saying but this is elden ring. The GEQ is not Melina, Melina was reborn, in one of the thousand reborn methods in elden ring. Maybe they used a larval tear. Maybe the put her on a jar at the foot of the erdtree. Remember "all things can be conjoined, come let us learn together"
Miquella and Malenia are no opposites in my opinion. Malenia is only rotting because she, with the help of her brother, are fighting against it. If you embrace the scarlett rot like Romina is doing, then you become something "beautiful". Just my feeling. Great Video and thx for that. Always searching for other ideas as I do lore videos as well but in german. Keep on
I think I get some of it now. The beast is the Elden Ring. So if Marika Summoned it in the SotE trailer, which many are saying; then The runes all existed before the Elden Ring did. The RING is Order, a circle. The Beast took the Runes into itself and became the Elden Ring. The symbol in Farum Azula is not , "The Farum Azula Elden Ring." Or whatever, it's just the symbol of all of the runes. Marika killed all of the pre-existing Gods / Great Rune holders. Each Outer God had their power symbolized by a great rune. Marika and her Consort Godfrey go along with the Hornsent's plan to make all things into one. In that time Marika split herself like Miquella and St. Trina, to be Life and Death. GEC is born and hunts the Gods to help Marika Unite the Runes. It's why the flames could " Kill Gods." The Divine Beast is given up as sacrifice from the Hornsent. So all can become one. The reason the Elden Beast is summoned by Marika is because she has the last bit of great runes the Greater Will needed to make them all ordered. Grace and life and holiness is a gift from Marika herself and her ability to tune spirits. She gave gold / life without order at her shaman village. Meaning without the Greater Will. The Golden Order is Golden because Marika is Golden, not because the Greater Will is golden and holy. It just wants complete and total order, like a dickhead. At some point Marika realized the GW is an uncaring thing. Rennala and Radagan's Daughter Ranni is now chosen to become the new God. Marika who houses the ER will surely have to die for this to happen, if she dies then she cannot stop the GW. She removes the grace from Godwyn and his northern humany people and sends them away so she can summon them back after they go out and die. This takes a long time, in that time Radagon is summoned back because two are needed for the Rune shit to work for some reason. It's why there are still Godskins all over still. Maliketh is sent to take the Rune of Death and he seals it within his sword. Marika conspires with Ranni which is how pieces of Maliketh's sword were able to be broken off. Radagon just thinks all is going good, he and Marika are one body. Then she starts telling him some shit like , " You're not me, you're not a god." Then one day starts trying to break the Elden Ring. Not sure how a hammer breaks something that's clearly mostly intact and still in your body, but whatever.
Just as miquella abandoned his other half in the quest for godhood, marika may have abandoned the gloam eyed queen in hers. Maybe she sealed her within melina, like she sealed the abyssal serpent within messmer... behind their eye, with different seals, for different gods
Some other lorehound, I'm sorry I can't remember who, commented on how much arboreal imagery there is in the game. And when you talk about trauma leading to birth, they talked about how some trees will produce seeds in abundance, but only under duress, as if a tree is sending seeds far and wide in a last-ditch effort for survival. And that this is what you see when you look at the erdtree seeds that you collect in the game, and the sudden growth of minor erdtrees across the lands. So...that's definitely a motif. I hadn't connected it to Marika's various children, kinda figured they got born the old fashioned way, but there's more mythic poetry in seeing them as picking up aspects of herself. Also, as an educated Christian, the whole conversation around persons and identities is giving me flashbacks to learning about the early arguments in the church about how humanity and divinity could ever coexist in one person. It seems like a literal confusion, but if you have different names, there must be some kind of boundary, right? I had thought this game couldn't be dug into more, but here we are. I start to wonder how much of this was planned and how much is people exploring themselves through the art. Either way, really cool.
Oh my god... in Marika's quest for revenge she hunted down all the avatars of the outer gods and incorporated the runes of each for herself. I believe this was after her and Radaghan's souls and who knows who else were merged in a jar ritual. The god murders were used to make the god skin robes. She became mother to the god skins and directed their cult for an eon. Marika's sentience bubbled to the surface. She took control and discarded the rune of death before ultimately merging the runes.The rune of Death was sealed away in Maliketh and the GEQ's soul in Melina, powerless to take control of her host without her rune. Marika fabricates a story of how Maliketh defeated the GEQ, thus making Marika seem like a hero - a god who presented herself with all the answers. "You will die no more and never cease to be if you follow my Golden Order." She then directed the genocide of the hornsent who had previously tortured her kin into unrecognizable masses of souls and flesh. After the appalling crime was carried out she veiled the shadow tree to hide her past, deeds, and a rival history of faith. And i think the land of the Shadow Tree, the land of death, was separated from this world by sealing the rune of death. And the most fucked up part of it all? A cult leader is hardly a queen right? She was the sanctified queen of the hornsent herself after the first successful jar saint ritual was actualized by her As the GEQ Placidusax was her Elden Lord. And Placidusax got the idea of damning Bayle and his descendants through Dragon Communion rituals from her. Rykard later developed his own interpretation of this ritual to "become familyyyyyyyyyyyy-" by devouring the strong based on this more primitive version. .
@@unholyzell I think the main clue is that the hornsent didn't have a successful jar saint. They're all marred by failure in every reference to the practice. Additionally an ideal jar saint attempt is said to involve a shaman as the host core. Marika was a Shaman. She evidently left her village for a time for an unstated reason, and, returned to pay her respects to her grandmother/matriarch. Why did she leave? My theory is that she was stewing in a jar. My above statements open the possibility up in the first place. What almost confirms it is that there were at least several people in Marika's body, or rather, the body Marika resides in. Radaghan is seen to physically be in the same body. But... what if there were more originally? The main clue here are her "children". Half of them have the ability to surrender their body to an element of an outer god outright: those born of Radaghan and Marika. Miquella and Malenia have monstrously divine power. I believe those 2 act as evidence Marika was combined with a body that had an affinity for communing with outer gods: the fire giants. Radaghan was born of the flesh of the fire giants that was put into the jar with her. Limited by the size of Marika's Numen body Radaghan arose as an original consciousness. Melina and Messimer both have visions of fire and strawberry blonde/red hair respectively signifying how they're direct offspring of Radaghan and Marika (or... Radaghan and the GEQ). But Melina has the soul of the GEQ sealed in her eye. She is a part of asexually budded flesh from Marika. There are parallels to Malenia who budded her own offspring. Those offspring bear aspects of the parents element. So perhaps the same rule applies to Marika's children. Melina has an affinity for Destined Death so only she can bear it's soul. Meaning the soul of the GEQ was once manifest in Marika's body. True death was still manifest during the purge of the hornsent lest none of the victims could have actually died. She discarded the GEQ like Miquella discarded St. Trina when she had finished her genocide and carried out her crucible ascension to god hood. She needed the identity of the GEQ to pretend to be the promised saint queen of the hornsent so she would be in a position to utterly betray them from the most advantageous position. So we're up to 3 different souls in one body. But the hornsent themselves were used in the jar saint ritual. Mohg and Morgott resemble the curse blade ascetics to a T. We know that failed ascetics who themselves could not ascend to god hood were used as superior crafting material in the jar ritual as they had expertly trained bodies. Their failure to achieve god hood parallels Mohg and Morgott not becoming Imperians. Once Marika hatched she probably obtained the other runes to craft the elden ring by killing the other outer god avatars with Destined Death under the guise of the GEQ (perhaps under the instruction of the Great Serpant we see in Bonnie Village. In her time of need the serpent parallels Satan coming to Eve in Eden tempting her with sin, a plan, and a promise to become a true god) "undergo the trial of the jar, use me as flesh." The Great Serpent could survive incredible bodily harm as demonstrated by Rykard so it's vitality got Marika to the other side of the ritual. The soul of the GEQ came from that snake. Which is why the GEQ's children have the unnatural physiology of serpents. This jar making event of combining hornsent ascetics, fire giants, great serpents, and a Numen tree shaman was the perfect storm to create a truly powerful being. Placidusax himself bowed to this entity and became the first Elden Lord. The consort of the GEQ.
I've been saying this for a long time now. It's kind of the only option available given what we've been told. I have my quibbles here and there but overall I think this is spot on. Marika creates clonal daughters that inherent aspects of herself.
And another lore vid adds to Marika’s body count. F&&k it, she birthed EVERYTHING lol (No seriously, this went from “cool theory” to *genuine* implications that you well established! I like it! Not sure “where” I weigh in anymore. Reasons for that, but it’d be TL;DR But I’ve gotta hand it to you, to reiterate you’ve truly thrown some stones on the table w/this vid & whether “right” or “wrong” (starting to think you’re right or at least def on the path)-this was a sincere dive. Glad I ran across you, this was thorough & intriguing -subbed. Nicely done👍
I agree with the premise that the DLC didn't include GEQ content because the devs said everything they wanted to say about her in the base game. But I think the answer is the most obvious one... it's Melina. Messmer really sealed the deal on this for me. His abyssal serpent behind his eye, sealed by grace, and unleashed when he breaks the seal. When we trigger the frenzied flame ending, we sever whatever force was sealing the aspect of the GEQ within Melina, be it grace or something else. All of Marika's children are cursed. Many have some form of alter ego, including Marika herself. So would the aspect of the GEQ within Melina be a curse or an alter ego, a combination of the 2? Idk, but if it's something that needs to be sealed away, it sounds more like a bad thing. I could easily believe someone so closely connected to Destined Death could go apeshit and want to kill many things. But then again, I could also see that same person thinking that bestowing Destined Death upon someone is actually a good thing, a sort of blessing in disguise - or at the very least not view it as a bad thing. Either way it could be a problem for Marika. Being Messmer's sister, being closely connected to him, and being around when the crucible is still very much a big thing brings the serpent motif and serpentine nature of the Godskin apostles into the equation somehow - though admittedly that is the weakest area of the theory. Her eye tattoo looking like a beast claw, possibly representing her defeat by Maliketh. Though why you'd want something that would possibly remind someone of thing you're supposed to be sealing away, idk. Obviously it isn't perfect, but I think the good points outweigh the bad. But those are just my general thoughts. But if it's not Melina, your explanation is the next best imo. Honestly I really wanted the GEQ to be Marika's twin. I even thought they might be doing a play on words with Godskin also meaning "God's Kin". But nope. Ngl, I'm still pretty disappointed we got nothing about the GEQ in the dlc, and next to nothing about Godwyn.
@@been_rly_n2_paragliding_lately personally I think it's more likely melina inherited marika gloam eye, but when death was sealed so was it . If the elden ring was part of marika. Once death was taken from it and sealed away it would make sense it was sealed from melina as well. The same way melina lost her gold eye when the golden order fell. Chatgpt overlords agrees that it's more likely melina is associated rather than directly is the GEQ
Just wanted to mention that the mark over her eye looks a lot more like a deathbird talon than a beast claw imo, which connects her even more to destined death!
It seemed pretty clear to me that Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen before she was defeated and subdued by Maliketh. After her dirty work as the GEQ was finished the GW tricked her into becoming the vessel of the GW and she has been enslaved by the GW since. Given this, she endeavoured for millenia to undo the GW. This includes the Night of Black Knives, sending Godfrey away, Sending Radagon to Renalla, sending Melina to assist our tarnished and even bestowing grace onto our un-named Tarnished.
How utterly sick would it be if: 1. Upon releasing the rune of death from Maliketh, you put the needle in and remove the Frenzied Flame from your soul after Melina dumps you if she came back in some capacity as the revived aspect of the Gloam Eyed Queen anyway? 2. The God Skin black flame incantations returned to their former glory as true Destined Death incantations ince she returns?
My build would immediately change to accommodate whatever Destined Death and the og Black Flame require. Throwing pulsing purple flames with the ability to deal heavy arcane, magic, holy, fire, and cold damage all at once. The true power of the Black Flame of Destined Death!
I think this puts together a bit about Maliketh. As Marika's shadow he not only weilds destined death, but seals it after the night of the black knives. This would mean that death is Marika's shadow until the night of the black knives when death is sealed away. Therefore Marika likely used death as a weapon of vengeance until that power was used against her children, at which point she realises her vulnerability and seals it away out of fear. That fear is what then drives her to seal away Messmer and create the Golden Order, because without death the Erdtree no longer works and now pure faith is needed to keep her Godhood going.
So essentially it would appear the Gloam Eyed Queen was Marika before the Golden Order. She used it as a weapon and at some point it was used against her / her family, which made her afraid of it, and so she had Maliketh lock it away to keep it from being able to harm her or her children, as it was the only weapon directly able to do so. Eventually Ranni abused that very fact with the Night of the Black Knives. That ends up making quite abit of sense. Perhaps what made the Greater Will decided to merge Marika and Radagon into godhood directly was because Marika as the Gloam Eyed Queen, created order, but that method eventually became unstable due to the risk against herself. So she began the Golden Order as an alternate means to maintain order, and thus favor from The Greater Will, in order to keep her godhood intact. My only question after that line of thought becomes, who is the Grandmother, because it portrays Marika as either worshipping or being afraid of her, and never being the same after the encounter.
You'd think Ranni's shadow being a dog with cold powers to reflect her dark moon and ice witch powers and Marika's shadow being an edgelord ultra goth death dog would be a bigger clue
much much more like Velka…. A mysterious goddess from an unknown religion who had many past influence on the main story and we never get to see her beside some meaningfull vague item descriptions. And kind of a connection to the black flame Messmer was more like the nameless king… The firstborn from the reigning god, who was banished by his parents and who was a great leader in war and great fighter
"Made from patches of smooth skin," you say? Someone we know has smooth skin, and is literally named Patches. Coincidence? I think NOT! Patches is the Gloam-Eyed Queen confirmed.
Looks like you overthought this. While I love people deciphering lore based on indirect material, we can't just ignore the direct material. Ex: Messmer's Kindling; The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler. A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent. Burns the sealing tree said to be found at the old Rauh ruins. Messmer, much like his younger SISTER, bore a vision of fire. Its rather implied that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen and therefore its implied that Melina is Messmer's sister. So the question then becomes how trustworthy is the information? Was it someone's opinion or just what has been accepted by the people through the generations. Well, I'm to believe that 'Messmer's Kindling' is rather truthful being that it was literally part of him, so hearsay can be thrown out. Then we get another key word, 'Kindling' like the kindling maiden (Melina) as described by her weapon Blade of Calling; Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death. In summation, I'm glad you went through the lore as the information could lead to other theories but its rather clear (which doesn't happen often) that Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen at some point and the sister to Messmer, making her a daughter of Marika. Also Radagon is clearly Marika's other self obviously not Melina, the game made that blatantly clear.
Great vid, lots to think about! I did not notice where the snakeskin near Bonny Village was looking, I definitely agree that has something to do with the origins of the GEQ and probably Marika too. One disagreement: I don't think the statues in the Rauh ruins can be Marika, because the timeline doesn't add up. The Rauh ruins seem to be from a time before the Hornsent culture was formed, and Marika used a Hornsent gate to become a god (given Miquella's arc and the story trailer, I think she definitely became a god using the Hornsent gate). The ruins in the Lands of Shadow all appear much older than the Hornsent culture, and the Hornsent seem to have built some of their settlements around the ruins. There are lots of clues around the Rauh ruins that point towards an ancient faith that focused on plant life and the crucible, and the Church of the Bud appears to be a recent attempt to revive or reincorporate that faith. Some of the pests (who have become servants of the Church of the Bud) are worshipping the female statues in the ruins, so this is probably a god associated with plant life. Marika also being a female god associated with trees does make it seem likely she's associated with the Rauh statues, but I don't think they're the same person. Maybe this was a god that she took her powers from, or merged with when she used the divine gate? I don't have a great theory for what's up with the statue in Farum Azula, but I think it's possible that statue was erected long after Farum Azula fell into ruin. Maybe it's Marika and maybe it isn't, but either way I think the age of Placidusax came long before Marika's reign and featured a different god. That's because dragons appear to be the most ancient of all creatures, so Marika being their god also doesn't make sense for the timeline.
There's one thing mentioned here that bothers me about this, if you claim Messmer is directly connected to the Godskins, why doesn't he have the Black Flame?
This is a great video. The GEQ could be Marika's mother and Radagon could be Marika's twin. Look forward to your next video But, your thesis on comparing character story arcs is great. The analysis of writing techniques in general can be helpful. Like, Chekhov's Gun, where a theme is introduced early and is later tired back into the plot as an important element. Like the "lion" symbol for the Hornsent and Godfrey. It sets up Radahn as a "golden lion" at the end of the DLC.
Howdy there I have 2 theories about Melina and Messmer: 1) Marika was present during the Gloomed eyes queen Reign. As a saint or Emperyan she had Radagon and had twin during the reign. Before the great betrayal, l think Messmer And Melina has been arround the GEQ. They have been close that the GYQ sealed some of her power in the left Eyes of Melina(this is not a grace seal). And that is why Messmer might has been ordered by marika to burn to death Melina, and then Marika had denough and took power etc... 2) Radagon had Messmer and Melina with the GEQ. and Radagon killed the GEQ. In the video for the DLC when "Marika" do the position in Front of the gates after taking grace from the corps she has a lack of upper woman part that seems odd to me. Thas is why messmer looks pale and has snakes (abyssal in the right) and Melina has the GEQ in her left. After taking power Marika act like the mother of them both but has no interrest and don't care about them. Messmer still has burned his litle sister down in Marika name and Marika disposed of him in the Land of Shadow after. Radagon is Marika Marika is Radagon. They believe to be hers. They kinda are but not like they think they are.
flame of frenzy is definitely pollen clouds.. because ragweed pollen can make your eyes burn, and make you frustrated to the point of frenzy. Ask anyone with bad allergies, they will agree.
Elden Ring has many connections but the thing is they're not exactly obvious due to those connections being broken. So sometimes what's not being said is just as if not more important than what was actually said. In DS1-3 and Bloodborne you have to accept what they say at face value. In Elden Ring they'll lie to you. I still see popular Elden Ring channels like Miss Chalice still not understand that Miquella hated Radogan but due to a Spell description she believes he was "Giving him gifts" because that's what the text says. But the spell is essentially telling the story of how Radogan gave him everything and how Miquella threw it back at his face.
I think that snake skin is Messmer shedding it after slaughtering the hornsent that were torturing Shamans in the Bonny Village. That caused Marika to seal the base serpent behind his eye to keep it in check. And he indeed never turned into a snake again (until his fight we meet him of course)
I like the idea merika and the gloam eyed queen were the same as her and radagon. And instead of splitting off as radagon did for a time merika killed her other half the gloam eyed queen. But she didn't stay dead not entirely ranni and godwyn are proof that death can be avoided in some seance, perhaps she died in body alone and her soul remained and got to rikard or perhaps menina was the gloam eyed queen reborn but changed by merika to not remember her past. It is only if we do the frenzy ending and Melina lives that the gloam eye comes out.
While I am more inclined to believe that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, serving to eliminate opposition to Marika and then cast aside by her similar to how Messmer was used, I think the twin theory is also valid. We don't really have confirmation and what difference would it make, so believe whatever you like. Either way, it is my opinion that the GEQ eliminated other gods which potentially held threads of the Elden Ring. After their death, Marika collected these threads as you can see in the dlc trailer, and brandished the Elden Ring. However, there must have been a point when the GEQ and Marika came to disagree with one another. Marika seemed to want an eternal order with neverending life, but the GEQ represents the necessary force of death in the world. Perhaps this dispute between them led to Maliketh defeating the GEQ. If it truly was Melina, then the statue in Farum Azula may have been of her, and that may have been her seat of power until Maliketh defeated her. Then, the tie between Melina, Torrent, Ranni, and the 3 lone wolf ashes would begin to make sense. Anyway, this has been a lot of rambling but she truly is the most fascinating character in the game to me.
Messmer's crusade against the Hornsent came late on the history. We know than Rellana joined Messmer, and since the Carians were against the Golden Order until Rennala married Radagon. I believe Marika's revenge came after long after she'd defeated all of her original enemies and conquered the Lands Between, when she returned home only to find her village decimated. Only then did she turn on the Hornsent.
Great stuff. I have always believed that Marika was the gloam eyed queen all along, so it's refreshing to see someone sharing that belief. Fun fact: godwyn is called the prince of death. I assume that it means his mother (Marika), is the queen of death. I do not think that is a coincidence. What do you think?
Is anyone else noticed that eyeballs are very important in this world and that all the demigods have one eye open when I closed and that the scar seals and seals of Ragon America are both eyeballs and that has a scar seal eye that covers the serpent within
The original description for the apostle robes imply that it was DemiGod skin, they used so between that and the wandering mausoleums i think the GEQ god hunt was to sacrifice amarikas unwanted kids
I believe you are correct. The Hornsent were attempting to blend various aspects together to create the perfect being, a saint, or what would be called today an empyrean. I also believe that the expulsion of the aspect of death, the gloam eyed queen, was the betrayal the hornsent hate Marika for since with the removal of death the crucible would cease to function and life would no longer blend into one
This also explains the Misbegotten. They always seemed fabricated to me and I long wondered WHY they were called Misbegotten, but now I know :They were the failures in the Hornsent experiments/rituals.
I wonder if the inquisitors are the "gods" for the god hunt. They have tangled horns that signify divinity (in their culture), they use barbs based incantations which almost look like rune arcs, they are worshiped upon their deaths as tutelary deities, their internal names are "GodMan____", and they have rags covering their faces and most parts of their bodies - as if to cover huge wounds (maybe just part of their ascetic practice, but strange that the curseblades and the actual deities didn't!) If Marika and GEQ are rival empyreans, they logically would have been against the power of the age - the Hornsent "gods". GEQ's defeat by Maliketh might be the reason why Marika was embraced by the Hornsent at first, until the crusade.
The knight of putrescence was called the glomite knight in the game code at some point during development so I think that the glomite queen What's planned to play a big part in the story of the shadow of the erdtree but they had to cut it for whatever reason
I don’t remember where I’ve seen it. it originated in Japan we are discarded offspring of Mirika and the beginning of our game is our birth in a mausoleum. Which lore wise house her discarded offspring. Our power is as someone put were a fantasy terminator. That makes everything make sense because only an Empyrm can take the throne. I like the theory.
im pretty sure melina is being set up to becoming the antagonist for elden ring 2 which also hints at the company taking a more coherent approach to the story telling, dark souls 1-3 were more or less standing by themselves segregated from eachother - but they might take a different approach with this game since they even went ahead and hired GRRM... lets hope he finishes this story though xD
This is a really thought provoking video, you did incredible in laying it all out. A hypothesis I randomly thought of while digesting this, is if Miquella had to divest himself of his flesh (ie St Trina being an embodiment of his love) Marika had to have done the same, yes? Radagon is speculated to be the embodiment of her loyalty to the Elden Ring or whatever, but what if the Gloam Eyed Queen was her rage/desire for revenge against the hornsent/former or outer gods? What dictates which emotions can be cast aside when divesting oneself? I feel like it could be believable to consider oneself a “child” of someone who brought you into life, and Melina and Marika have similar features (Numen features?). Idk just some random shower thoughts as the video rolls!
I think you are exactly right. Miquella abandons many things, fears, doubts, flesh, etc. I suspect Marika did the same. Miquella's final cross in the tower reads "I abandon here all my fears"..... well, if death was a fear or Marika's I would suspect this is the place she abandoned the GEQ aspect of herself. Fear and terror left in the shadow. From a psychological perspective, it's up to the individual which aspects they want to suppress in their shadow. For example, many men will suppress emotions of caring and vulnerability while women will tend to suppress things like assertion. It all depends on what they want the world to see them as.
7 is just a very "ominous" number in western culture, like 3. In eastern culture it would be 6 or 13. Also, I have no idea where the idea comes from that the demigods in the seven mausoleums were killed at the night of black knives? Wouldn´t makte any sense. Ranni just needed the one death to get rid of her body. And the other demigods were "Marikas unwanted children" I still like the theory more that the Tarnished is one of these unwanted demigods.
the gloam eyed queen couldve been marika’s other half much like miquella’s other half st trina. she sealed it away with her shadow bound self somehow and yada yada yada, its less vague than fromsoft itself at least
i think the elden ring, which seems to govern the laws of nature in this world, existed before marika, possibly within the crucible, and that it was control over the crucible that earlier civilizations (and gods) fought each other for. both the hornsent and the nox civilizations were performing horrible experiments trying to create their own gods,, the dragons performed communion to ascend to godhood, Mohg was trying to turn Miquella into a god, and the giants and followers of the frenzied flame became hosts of their Outer God, who literally lived inside them. in other words, gods aren't simply born: they're made, by people, along with the help of an Outer God. in that sense, the hornsent succeeded in "creating" marika as a god, either because she too underwent the process of jarring, or because the trauma of witnessing her people go through it drove her to ally herself with the Greater Will. when it came time to ascend to the throne, she needed to have control of the elden ring. so she "seduced" the hornsent by convincing them she was the created god they'd worked so hard for, and then, after her ascension, she "betrayed" them by committing genocide against them. i think "the gloam eyed queen" is a title rather than a specific person. in ancient times, she possessed the rune of destined death, and it was her job to ensure that everything returned to the crucible, including gods, with the godskins as her agents. maliketh killed her and took the rune of death on marika's command. and at some point, whether it was because she was disgusted by the slaughter of the hornsent, the suffering of the people who kept coming back to life just to suffer again and again, losing her brother when the shadow realm and the lands between were divided, or maybe because marika herself begged for death, if we're assuming that marika tasked hewg with making a weapon to kill her, melina took on the role of the gloam eyed queen. i think the most plausible scenario is that melina was summoned to the erdtree, tried to burn it all down, and destroyed herself in the process, being reduced to a wandering spirit with only echoes of her memories to guide her. the godskins were masterless, and went off on their own missions. i think the one we see near liurnia's divine tower was probably there to assist ranni in the rite of the night of the black knives that killed her body and godwyn's soul. the noble would be the one to know how the rune works, after all. the noble in volcano manor might have allied himself with rykard because rykard was trying to kill the gods, and the duo in farum azula might've been there to try to get the rune back. as far as the spirit tuner from hewg's past goes, that's still very much open to speculation. i don't think it's far-fetched to assume that miquella, torrent's former master according to the teaser art for the expansion, who also bequeaths to us the spirit calling bell through ranni, studied magic with the carians and learned spirit tuning from seluvis, just as ranni did, perhaps in pursuit of a cure for malenia. you can't rot if you're a puppet, can you? there are quite a few st trina's and miquella's lilies around ranni and renna's rises. it would've been there that he would've been introduced to the albinaurics and would've developed rapport with them, and of course, where he would've met radahn. i also think it's reasonable to assume miquella and ranni were allies at some point, given the ghost at castle sol talking about trying to bring about an eclipse.
They're never described as having THE Elden Ring, but The Gloam Eyed Queen had the Death Rune. How would she have this if there wasn't parts of the Elden Ring? I'm open to the GEQ being Marika's twin on top of being a former Shaman, only because it adds to why we're never told the Gloam-Eyed Queen is killed. Defeated =/= Killed. Plus, she's Death incarnate. Much like a spirit, how do you actually kill it? I think you're correct on their not being Demigods when the Godskins had power, but we also forget Eiglay/Rykard yearn to devour the "very Gods." Between the two snakes, there's the symbolism of the Ouroboros. Like Yin and Yang, it represents destruction and rebirth. The Abyssal Serpent seeks to destruction while Eiglay seeks kinship.
The Fell God and The Gloam Eyed Queen have a myriad of ties together through Mt. Gelmir. Rancorcall and Magma sorceries are both defined as hexes. Both have one eye that is destructive and channels flame. “The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of destined death”. This would also explain why the Flame Monks were so easily seduced. With the four combined, they are like transitional seasons. After the Fell God came Marika's age. After/During Marika comes Radagon like Fall. Without the Death Rune, there is no "Winter," or the Zeitgeist "Death of the Sun." Without it, Radagon cannot transition, ruining the immortality of the God to be. Radagon yearned to be "complete," so what was he doing with the Egg? We do meet a Gloam colored character in the DLC. "Those who know poison know Rot all too well." Putrescence is rotted flesh.
What if, marika sacrificed the hornsent but isn't the betrayal we hear in the trailer, we hear the betrayal from the hornsent for them but can be a lesser betrayal and the greater betrayal was marika taking the destined death rune from the gloomed eyed queen, going through the portal, giving the rune to maliketh and granting no death in her golden order so she hidden one remembrance (the sword) in caelid.
if we trace back even more the first sin and mistake i think was the same with the two and three fingers, the two fingers sealed away the three fingers( order sealed away chaos) and chaos happened anyway, that is why the three fingers want to burn it all way so the two and three can be one again, though personally not sure if that is the right way, maybe a mending could be better.
I'm still convinced that the Gloam Eyed Queen is the other aspect of Melina, the other child of Marika's union with the great serpent in the land of shadow along with Mesmer. She left Mesmer behind to continue her vengeance on the land of shadow and burying her past while Melina/GEQ was to be the tip of her spear in wiping out the old gods of the lands between (her opposition to ultimate power). Once the deed was done she was put down by Maliketh before she became too powerful to stop and sealed away. Her return as Melina was likely brought about by Mohg under the influence of Miquella (the clue being Varre being first to greet us on our emergence). This is Miquellas plan B after his ascendance was stalled by Malenia not being powerful enough to put Radahn down after Ranni had Godwyn (his first choice for consort) killed, the plan was that the tarnished would put down any opposition to Miquellas ascent and get rid of Melina/GEQ before being felled by his chosen consort Radahn. This is the cycle of power, using pawns to clear the board and then sacrificing them to protect the monarch.
I still think there are something to be said about some things just being lost in translation from Japanese to English. Games are notoriously known for this over the years, and it is still difficult because there are concepts and words that really don't have a directly translatable way to English. Would be great to have a rundown from a fluent Japanese & English speaker who's played through both.
That is a very good analysis. If Merika/GEQ were the god of the first Elden Ring then the history can be broken up into five parts: Pre-Elden Ring/Crucible Era, Elden Ring creation grafted on the Crucible, Golden Order and Erd Tree, Golden Order with no Rune of Death, Post Shattering. Merika was the first and possibley the only shaman turned into a saint in the 1st era. She became a god with Placidusax as her elden lord in the 2nd age. She fled/abandoned Placidusax to create the Golden Order and Erd Tree in the third age. The third age is when there were Erd Tree burrials and the Erd Tree sap flowed and gave blessings. She also took on Godfrey as her Elden Lord (the first elden lord of the new Golden Order era). Then Merika cast off her other self, the GEQ, and removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. She exiled Godfrey and took on her other self, Radigon as Elden Lord. Then came the Shattering which lead to the current era.
We know Merika wasnt a god when Placidusax reigned though is the problem. The Dragonlords functioned with Placidusax as the one and only, no other. He also maintained the Elden Ring at that time. Marika's reign began when The Greater Will eventually favored her. So my headcanon so far is that Destined Death wasnt part of the Lands Between until the end of Placidusax reign, which may be where the Gloam Eyed Queen / Marika precursor, came from. As the Gloam Eyed Queen, she undid the reign of the dragonlords with Destined Death as her Great Rune. In fear the dragongods abandoned The Lands Between and Placidusax locked himself away, locked in the time vortex. (as we still dont know exactly why the dragongods left the dragons to fend for themselves.) After the reign of the Dragons ends, The Greater Will looks to the next sense of stability and order, which was the rising Gloam Eyed Queen using Destined Death as a weapon against opponents. The Gloam Eyed Queen erradicated / scared off the hornsent's gods from The Lands Between. And so, the Elden Ring was passed from Placidusax to her. Destined Death was combined with the Elden Ring, which made death universal to the Lands Between, as the Elden Ring acts like a Worldstone equivalent from Diablo. Someone or something eventually uses Destined Death against The Gloam Eyed Queen which makes her afraid of it being part of the Elden Ring, thus she separates it from the Elden Ring and binds it to Maliketh. She then forms the Golden Order to help maintain order and stability to remain favored by The Greater Will and retain godhood. She becomes known as Queen Marika during this period and Radagon becomes her consort of that Golden Order and the Erd Tree. Ranni eventually steals the rune of death and uses it against her again, causing chaos, which makes The Greater Will rescind Merika's godhood because she has then allowed chaos to spread, ultimately killing her, but Radagon remaining partly alive.
Sometimes I wonder if Fromsoft intentionally leaves much of the story ambiguous with the intention that fans will come up with their own theories to fill in the gaps of the plot, and than Fromsoft just chooses which ones make the most sense to choose as the canon story lol. It would be a much easier way to do the story while also making far more interesting for fans as a sort of puzzle to figure out, and if any of the fans happen to be 'correct' in their theories than that also makes the fans happier as a result for managing to 'figure out' the plot from barely any concrete information lol. It is all speculation without evidence but a thought I frequently come to regardless.
Oh definitely. Miyazaki actually says that's how he does the lore. Makes it incredibly loose so we can come up with our own story. Apparently he did this as a child when learning english. He couldn't read everything so just came up with a story he enjoyed. That's his inspiration for story-telling. My guess is he has a full story that is "cannon" but takes things out and intentionally obscures things to make it nearly impossible to figure out the "true" story.
@@CenteredTarnished Really!, that's awesome. I guess that idea really does work, because it just made me happy for managing to 'figure it out' with barely information lol. That is a good idea though since it makes far less work for the devs freeing their time to work on other aspects of the games while also getting the fans much more engaged in the game even outside of actually playing the game to figure out mysteries and whatnot. Thank you for the information 👍👍👍, I haven't actually heard that from Miyazaki before. I do not know how to give a 'heart or love thing' that you did on my post so I gave a 'like' instead but will change it once I figure out how to lol.
@@JohnU1515 haha no worries! a like is great! Yeah, I think this is why Miyazaki games are so interesting and hold the attention of lore enthusiast for so long. We "know" there is a "correct/ cannon" version out there but it's damn near impossible to figure out because of Miyazaki's style.
@@CenteredTarnished lol you got that right. It is interesting trying to find out what is the truth in the stories, but not gonna lie, it drives me nuts not knowing what the truth is because I can't stand not knowing things that I am not interested in lol. It is funny watching Zelda fans try to come up with theories though. Those games are not really deep when it comes to lore so when they find the smallest of details and blow it wayy out of proportion and the theory isn't even close to the reality lol. Although this example is actually a relevant detail it still was very far off reality, that is the Zonai Ruins in Breath Of The Wild. Before Tears Of The Kingdom came out and there was only Trailers, there was countless videos of who and what the Zonai were and that on a Mural an 'Ancient Hero' was Ganondorf who was good, which was the complete opposite of what happened lol. I noticed when it comes to theories, Fromsoft fans are far better at drawing conclusions to the surrounding lore and characters than Zelda fans are. My guess why at least is probably because 1) Fromsoft games are just better at that stuff, 2) The games are far more coherent, & 3) Fromsoft fans pay more attention to details and are better at figuring out what would make more sense in the context of the story/world. Not sure if you have seen any of the Tears Of The Kingdom theories on UA-cam but wow quite a few were very bad lol.
Elden Ring lore would not be as popular as it is if they gave you the answers. I will be thinking about Marika for literally the rest of my life lmao and I will never have my answers
Reuploaded with better audio..... hopefully. Enjoy:)
Thanks King
Your script for what you wanted to say was fantastic. Very well put together video I enjoyed it!
@@CenteredTarnished shes a dragon though right? Not a snake.
Dragons are eternal, like her title, and all snakes descend from them aaaaand godrick calls the dragon a true born heir implying the dragon is of correct stock and was birthed naturally rather than some erdtree shenanigans. And how could i forget Radagon = a dRagon
What if the snake skin is actually where Marika gave birth to Messmer and that's where he shed out of the snake form after getting a blessing from Marika to allow him to retain his "Human" form
@@NiaTheMilkTank but hes not a snake even after he breaks the seal
Don’t forget that Hewg was personally tasked with making weapons to slay gods by Marika, and he helps out Roderika due to her reminding him of someone with a similar gift for tuning spirits long ago. Someone with very similar eyes to Roderika. Not golden eyes, but a peculiar shade of blue. And Radagon + Marika sounds a lot like Roderika.
😮😮😮
I wonder if a smiting Golem made the Godslayer Greatsword...
you are into something!
Holy shit, her name is literally both of theirs, I never noticed
If it was Radagon and Marika it would start with an M. I hate to go too GRRM on my theory but Ranni quite literally became a spirit and while her actual body had Radagon's hair she easily could have had Carian blue eyes even before she was a doll.
I like this a lot. That being said, Melina shares Marika’s own words in 3rd person, but promises us Destined Death directly from a 1st person perspective.
It feels a lot like the power of the GEQ was sealed within Melina like the Abyssal serpent was sealed with Messmer
HOLY SHIT, I DIDNT EVEN THINK OF THE MESSMER/MELINA SEALING AWAY CORRELATION
Nice catch
I like this theory a lot. It feels like the game does everything in its power to point us towards Melina as the GEQ, but the time lines never quite fit together. Like Maliketh defeating the god skins and the GEQ sealing the rune of death, but if Melina were to be the GEQ that throws a wrench into things as she says she was born in the erdtree for the purpose to be kindling and her being the daughter of Marika doesn't make sense she'd have Maliketh sent after her.
It could be that the GEQ was a god of the hornsent who delivered onto gods destined death with her Apostles and Nobles (whealding black flame as their god killing weapon power by the rune of death), who Marika used to take over the religion killing the other gods to plant her self as superior, and it wouldn't be the first time Marika is called a traitor in the DLC. It would even line up with Messmers purges Maliketh defeats the Godskins at same time as Messmer begins to purge.
Not necessarily a seal. There is grafting in the ER universe. The practice of gaining someone's abilities by attaching their body parts unto yourself. It's unclear if only Marika's descendants can do it due to her shaman origins but since Melina is her daughter it's possible that she is borrowing someone's power by having transplanted their eyeball in her left eye socket. Though, I honestly think it's Maliketh's eye since the beast eye he gives you is violet and Blaidd who is another shadowbound beast has violet eyes. Plus, the tattoo on Melina's closed eye is that of a claw.
@@Demokazecould she be our shadow? The opening cut scene has the sound of the bell wondering mausoleums that duplicate shard holder remembrances. Not sure what it means.
And she makes sure to differentiate between Marika and Her Mother. And if we took the Gloam Eyed Queen and Queen Marika as "different side of the same coin" parallel to for example Malenia and Miquella, then there is a possibility that they're siblings from same mother at least.
And to add my imagination here, that's maybe why Marika joined her existances with Radagon so that She's became parallel with Radagon instead and to cast away Gloam Eyed Queen, like she cast away Rune of Death.
As a parent of fraternal twins i dont think ive heard it mentioned that Fraternal twins run in the family on the mothers side and Marika went on to have 2 sets of Fraternal twins. I think her having a twin isn't impossible at all
Yes, the main factor for fraternal twins occuring is how many eggs the mother releases during her cycle, and the male has no impact in that.
GRRM does love his genetic trait storylines.
@@Kenspiracy664you mean his incest + “r word” storylines ?
Marika divesting these aspects of herself into all her children paralleling Miquella, cursed with youth, attempting to divest his aspects across his mother’s homeland and the site of the original cataclysm she caused is so sad.
the algorithm pushed your channel my way after finishing nearly all of Vaatividya's, Smoughtown's, and FatBrett's Elden Ring content over the course of the last year or so. between all of those watch hours & 9 playthroughs of the game myself across nearly 500 hours, i thought i had a pretty good handle on what Elden Ring was all about. then, yesterday, i came across your videos, and spent four hours binging them. you've brought an intriguing & unique alternate perspective for theory crafting & fundamental understanding of the lore through your videos. well thought out, well structured, well done. subscribed! excited to see where you take us next. i'll be watching the rest of your catalog in the interim! cheers.
That was so good. I love your approach to lore speculation, not being afraid to make those leaps of faith. Also very well reasoned.
@@trychydts thanks!
You can also tie in the Windmill Village as a massive thread here, we have the Godskin Apostle amongst the Celebrants who skin villagers as part of their festival. It is “tacitly tolerated” by the Erdtree because we can point to Marika’s actions as the Gloam Eyed Queen during the Godskin Hunt, and even further back to Marika witnessing the skinning of the shaman for the festival’s origins. We can see that the Celebrants’ eyes glow red when we draw their aggro, mirroring the red rune of death/Marika becoming the GEQ upon witnessing her peoples’ slaughter. The Celebrants’ weapons grant traces of runes when landing attacks, indicating there is something of Marika to be gleaned from this practice. Even the windmills themselves signal a cycle, casting a shadow of perpetuating trauma.
You’ve tied this mystery up quite nicely and in good time considering the amount of loose threads Miyazaki has left us, there’s so much left to answer still so I can’t wait to see where the community goes from here.
My biggest question now is how Marika gained the power of the Black Flame as a shaman. Did the flame sort of spark within her when she witnessed the Hornsent murdering shaman (the event fractured Marika leaving her empty inside, perhaps enabling her to become a vessel for the God of Death and later the Elden Ring?), or did she have to steal the power from the previous God of Death/the Twinbird, and if so, how?
Edit: Been thinking about it and given that the Black Flame sigil resembles a fingerprint, maybe Marika received the Black Flame from Metyr/the Greater Will in a similar way to how the Three Fingers bestow the Frenzied Flame? Marika and the GEQ are both chosen as Empyreans and the Rune of Death is part of the Elden Ring so she couldn’t have been able to slay gods without first being noticed by the GW. Maybe Metyr is wounded not just to sever her connection to the GW, but to prevent further use of the Black Flame and enable Marika to summon the Elden Beast to wield the ER/enact her vision of the Erdtree? Metyr is a mother and the Black Flame allows Marika to birth thr Godskins, the Elden Beast has its golden flame for what it’s worth, I’m just not sure how the god of death before Marika would have lost its power. The lore of the mariners, Helphen, Twinbird, etc. throws a wrench into things. Maybe the Twinbird is an alt-Placidusax in the same way that GEQ is effectively an alt-Marika?
Shoutout Zayf the Scholar for the new video on the Windmill Village!
GEQ and Marika are the twin birds ya dig lol
I personally assumed that the Windmill Village celebration is a recent thing, something that is NOT tolerated by the Golden Order, but they do it because they are confident that Morgott can't really enforce the laws that well outside his own walls. I also assumed that Rykkard might have played a role, as he was originally supposed to persecute the pagans of the Lands Between, but ultimately ended up embracing their faith.
It is likely that the flame that GEQ inherited or found was not black originally. If you read about the dead birds (i dont remember exactly) it says that the flame has lost its color with time.
@@Vapor.Steve77 if you combine the pale blue ghostflame with the dark red of Destined Death, you get the color of the Tibia Mariners and grave violets.
I was actually just farming celebrants earlier and got the both the normal and blue unaltered festive garb, which have capes. The much more common gold garb has an Erdtree symbol on it, while the blue garb, said to be worn by the maidens at the center of the festival, features the godskin's magic insignia on top with expanded iconography connected on the bottom.
I'm sure it means something, but it's hard to say what. In line with this video's theory, it could be that the festival originally represented "Nice" Marika re-asserting herself over the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but then the godskin noble at the top lured the celebrants back to the old ways?
I think something that can be furthered looked into/hammered on is the connection between Millicent and Melania and how Millicent is Melanias lost purpose? And how that ties back into the demigods being offshoots of Marika
And how Melina is wearing the exact same clothing as Millicent and fills the same role as Marika's "offshoot"
I just have one word: VINDICATION.
Thank you for this. I’ve felt like I was taking crazy pills for a while now. Like, how can people not see this?!
I think i get the story now.
Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen and when she wanted to take revenge on the hornsent, she started the god hunt and took "gods" away from the hornsent.
(This is before gold arose, because one NPC, Ymir, still has their eyes colored purple)
She, along with Maliketh, needed to make a new body for Marika and a special thing destined death can do is kill body and soul, so Marika killed the body of the Gloam Eyed Queen and had a new body formed so that Gold and rise. Looking at it this way gives more explanation for godskin placements, they're keeping secrets hidden from us.
Next to the first church of Marika, we find the spirit caller cave that we get the swaddling cloth from
At the liurnia tower, a noble stands in our way to keep us from the hollow brand from Ranni's body, which might be a secret Marika found and doesn't want people to know about about.
In the church of eglay, there's a big snake skin, and if the Godskin have any relation to mesmer, that's another secret, so a noble is placed to keep you away from it.
An apostle guards the queen's great sword and another kind just vibes at the windmill village ABSURDLY CLOSE TO THE CAPITAL.
And finally, Farum Azula, where they didn't get the memo that Marika wants to die so.......her kids try to defend her with their lives, making sure you can't get to Maliketh or destined death.
I like the GS placements theory. Miriam as in the disappearing mage in liurnia?
@@Ark16 I'm dumb, i ment Ymir
great video, love the theory. theres also a parallel with Miquella discarding St.Trina
I think it's important to explore the themes surrounding the snake in Bonnie Village, and its connection to religious imagery. In a somewhat controversial version of what happened in the garden of Eden, known as the "Serpent Seed", a snake *seduces* Eve and the result of their union was Cain, and people destined for damnation (demons, essentially). Meanwhile, Adam's children were destined for eternal life. Marika and Radagon might symbolize both Eve and Adam, while the Gloam Eyed Queen may symbolize Lilith. If Eve and Adam are fused together in Elden Ring, it wouldn't be crazy to think that Lilith was fused as well, all into one being (like what the Hornsent were doing to people in jars). Marika's children, to me, seem to be aspects (or previously fused people) splitting off of her, like saplings falling off a tree and planting themselves to create new trees. Marika and Radagon are capable of mating, like a form of asexual reproduction, like budding, and instead of creating something new, their children are cast-off aspects of themselves. Going back to the Christian imagery, since all Eve's children were destined for damnation, or cursed essentially, this would explain why all of Marika's children are cursed in some way. What I think may be suggested, is that this snake (the younger God-devouring serpent) manipulated Marika by promising her power, in exchange for the death of the gods. If we liken the snake to Satan, or Loki from Norse mythology, both these gods are enemies of God(s), and so would have that motive. Both Marika and the snake get their revenge. In exchange, Marika would bear the snake's child - Messmer (Cain). Cain would kill his brother and then be cursed by God, banished to his own realm where he creates his own city, similar to how we find Messmer. Miquella casts away his love in a pit of death (St. Trina) and she is like a whole different person. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen might be the aspect of Malenia that sided with the serpent, whose children are the godskins; Marika splits this aspect from herself and then slays it/her. This would also explain Marika's later fear and abandonment of Messmer, due to his connection the the snake and the gloam-eyed queen, the curse that it bears, and Messmer being spawned from the desire to kill the gods - which Marika herself becomes. I think the snake manipulating her in exchange for revenge and power is the "seduction" and turning her back against the Hornsent (and possibly the Gloam-Eyed Queen) is the Betrayal from which Gold arose. The Elden Beast is found at the top of the spiraling tower constructed from the bodies of thousands of Hornsent. The bottom, fracturing souls and individuals. The top, all fused together in the divine crucible, is saint, or godhood. Godhood is achieved through the fusing of thousands of souls, like Marika in the flesh jars. Then, casting off of the undesirable parts while keeping the desirable ones, creates a true god - Marika's children are her cast off parts, many of which she abandons and slays (the mausoleum demigods) and Miquella casts off parts of themselves to achieve godhood as well.
So much in the DLC is about embracing. "In the embrace of Messmer's flames" Miquella sought to "embrace the whole of it", Romina embraced the scarlet rot and so on. The word embrace is used many times in the DLC and the scadutree is being embraced itself. and in the base game the description for "Black Flame's Protection " says the apostles were all "embraced" by the GEQ. I forget what description (rememberance for Miquella?) That says one refused to be embraced by Miquella. I think it's the shadow tree. The thorns are meant to repell all. And the scadutree avatar gives us Miquella's broken great rune. He was unable to charm and embrace the shadow tree. The shadow of Marika basically. Funnily enough Marika is the devouring mother archetype and GEQ is the kind loving embracing archetype. Marika abandoned that nurturing side. That embracing side of herself to rise to godhood maybe?
So wait... if Marika shattered herself when she removed the Rune of Death, isn't it possible that the GEQ was also removed along with it? Think about it: The demi-gods are shardbearers. They give you their Great Runes when they are defeated. So why wouldn't the GEQ be attached to the Rune of Death?
I’m not saying this theory is correct, but if it is: then Maliketh defeating her would just be like Blaidd turning on Ranni. In this case, her assigned Empyrean shadow would be keeping her in check. As Marika, she’d seal destined death to make sure it didn’t happen again. That’s *if*
And like Melania fighting radahn =)
another parallel indeed
Now it makes sense why the game never says Marika ordered him to fight the Gloam Eyed Queen, or that the GEQ fought the Golden Order, or that the GEQ was killed. It's just: Maliketh defeated her.
Reposting my comment from the original video:
I think there’s a lot of merit to this.
Most of the outer gods don’t really seem to have a presence until after Marika.
This, combined with the revelation that her people were all shoved into jars as part of the hornsent ritual, suggests to me that Marika would be the source of these as we know them in the lands between and their existence as such is made possible by that jar ritual itself.
It’s now my firm belief that Marika was created, or perhaps more accurately evolved, in a jar as part of these rituals, and that everything we see in the world would have been shoved into that jar as part of her mixture and she was the only Shaman capable of bringing it to order, which is why the Greater Will chose her to take over and end the chaotic crucible era.
All roads do point to Marika and this jar process.
Imagine:
1 part death bird,
1 part snake (accidentally the abyssal serpent)
1 part fire giant,
1 part follower of the scarlet bud,
1 part blood fiend,
And more…
Suddenly we have a mix that explains Radagon and his embarrassment over his hair and the association with the fire giants.
The fire giants provide context for messmers flame, and doubly so with the corrupting influence of the abyssal serpent.
The god of rot manifesting itself in one of her children.
The formless mother and its affinity for mohg, and even morgott (despite his attempts to suppress it)
The GEQ being born of the mix of the flame within from the fire giant and the death birds… (or something along those lines)
And all of this made possible by her slowly shedding these amalgamated elements of her torturous creation as a jar saint/empyrean.
I like to think of the body she pulls the threads from as the first god… she’s taking the ring for herself… the threads are the more chaotic and wavy portions of the original ring, and she’s taking her first step to convert them into the rigid lattice that would later be associated with radagon…
Okay enough ranting.
Great video
i think you can take that even further to say that marika sought to remove all of those aspects that made her a god without losing her godhood. she thought she could pick and choose what she could keep from the jar ritual, but as we see the outer gods pretty much all affect her offspring in some way (except for frenzied flame). in a way, it’s about trauma. part of the healing from trauma comes with accepting that part of you that’s been affected by the trauma. marika thought she didn’t have to do that because she was a god.
I got the Feeling that the Scarlet Bud (saint) and the bloodfiend both discovertt the outer good through the suffering that came with the genocid of Marika / messmer
Based on having the pots in shadow and their tomb, I thought the game had been implying that marika was created by the hornsent as they attempted to create a new god, mixing her parts, an empyrean, with parts of other people and perhaps even giant body parts, like a witches brew. “Flesh of the empyrean to meld it, humans as a medium and the hair of a giant for strength.” But I don’t think the hornsent expected marika to be able to control and split off the constituent parts that had been merged with her in her “crucible”/ pot, nor that her connection to the fingers, a part of “the great” would allow her to control the power of The Crucible and reshape it. I don’t know if I agree that marika and radagon were “originally” one being before being put in the pot, but the “Marika” that emerged most certainly was one being that contained the two personalities, and all the children after that may represent their inability to cope/ deal with their identity as a merged being that simultaneously is like everything else in the world (with bits and pieces of the orders and people/ animals/ spirits that wander the land) and yet is also the god that does not wish to be like everything else, and probably fears becoming something else.
since the DLC ive bought the theory that marika and radagon are the result of a successful jar ritual, melding people together to create a "saint". It follows perfectly, then, that a third personality of marika emerged. Radagon is dedicated to the golden order, GEQ is opposed, and marika is caught in the middle. Ive also seen another creator, scum mage infa, postulate that ranni is a piece of marika that escaped godhood's prison, which ties in perfectly with your idea that all her children were fractures of herself.
Edit: in fact i had always wondered how GEQ had the power of destined death at all, and why plucking it from the elden ring and sealing it away denied it from her, its because GEQ was also in posession of the elden ring! wow, how did we not realize this sooner, it makes perfect sense!
The theme of duality is littered throughout this game. I think it only makes sense to infer that the game's 'main character' has a dual identity as well.
Something I realized while watching this video. In the trailer, we see the two shades of sky when Marika ascends to Godhood. I believe now that this is meant to hint at this duality. One sky, tinted gloam, and the other of gold.
Perhaps the betrayal mentioned in the trailer was the betrayal of the Godskins, killing them all after she had them do her bidding.
Edit: I thought of more to add to this theory. Just like St. Trina, the Gloam-Eyed Queen was Marika's other self that she rid herself of before ascending to Godhood. Then after ascending, found her consort Radagon to exact her reign (just as Miquella did with Radahn). I also believe the theme of purple is meant to connect St Trina and The Gloam-Eyed Queen in this way.
I'm stuck between enjoying listening to the lore and ppl fitting pieces together while also not caring because i don't think there exists a cohesive storyline that will provide full answers.
The lack of a fully fleshed out story takes the wind out of my sails when it comes to investigating it on my own
So I am among the many that wanted Gloam-Eyed Queen content from the one and only DLC ... only to find myself presented with a revelation from you that akin to Marika = Radagon, Marika = GEQ. Just brilliant theorycrafting ... and as a Persona fan (and academic besides), your psychoanalytical approach to Elden Ring is exciting ~ It's incredible that academic disciplines like psychoanalysis and archeology can quite faithfully theorycraft from Elden Ring because *that* degree of thought has been put into it by the developers. This incredible depth is why Elden Ring deserved to be nominated for its story.
Edit: I'm already planning a playthrough where the Tarnished is a fracture of the slain GEQ, so on behalf of the 200-300 hours that are about to be slain, thank you ~ >ω
Greetings, fellow Persona fan! :) I actually made mention of the series to CT a while back, and promised him my thoughts on my Persona 3R experience. I made the comment regarding that experience here in the comment section :)
FS Dev: "I have a little bit of space over here, any ideas what I should do with it?"
Miyazaki: "Put a fuckin' snake corpse there."
FS Dev: "Oh! Is there going to be some sort of story or idea behind it?"
Miyazaki: "Nah I just wanna fuck with everyone."
“Messmear”
It amazes me the lengths to which lore theorists both great and small will go to pronounce a name wrong
I love this theory! Best explanation for her pulling the gold threads from the godskin in the trailer. Can't wait to hear about the different representations of her in the statues!
I think if Miquella had to get rid of St. Trina, why not Marika had to do the same with the Gloam-eyed Queen? Miquella took the body of Mogh to bring Radahn back., and we know Marika took Godfrey and Radagon as consorts, but Marika was Radgon, which this fact fool everyone. We see Miquella hugging Radahn at second phase, but he looks like a spirit possessing his body. Perhaps Marika is doing something similar with Radagon and Radagon is just claiming his body back. Marika is a god, but even gods need to enforce their supremacy in the material world somehow, and this facts came to face Miquella, as their failures with the Malenia, the Haligtree, and Godwyn became evident, and the only path to godhood was his mother walked.
Radagon is merica. Radagon created the physical world and merica is like its spirit. They are the blending of the gnostic concepts of the demiurge and sophia.
@@curtisfarley6558 From what I know and understand, that isnt exactly correct.
The Greater Will gave Merika godhood, and that godhood came from Radagon. Radagon acted as the anchor of her godhood, and is why he survived when she died from the attack by The Greater Will. It is supported in this with what Miquella did. They need a host body to govern from, Radahn for Miquella. They are disembodied otherwise, thus requiring a unity of two souls in the same form, but one of them being more prominent over the other, Miquella over Radahn, Merika over Radagon. But they all have their times of control overall. Thus is how they could act independently too. Miquella saw that independence as why there were failings in The Lands Between, thus he sought a consort strong enough to overcome all others, Radahn, but he needed him to be susceptible to Miquella's charm, to be completely controlled by him to remove that independence in Radahn, as before Radahn rejected Miquella's call.
My theory is like Radagon, the Gloam eyed Queen was originally a part Marika that she discard and it gained a sense of self. I think the Gloam Eyed Queen represents Marika's sense of motherhood and sense of need to cause death, the gloam eyed queen nurtures her children while Marika discards her children if they don't further her goals and Markia became a god built on the death of her people and the hornsent so she removed the part of herselt that caused all that death. Also I believe the godslayer greatsword has a design element most overlook, it has a spiral shaped coiling blade that unwinds at the tip, just like the hornsent spiral imagery and its shape also looks like 2 coiling snakes coated in flame separating from each other just like Marika separated the Gloam Eyed queen and Radagon who I believe is the manifested persona of her sense of order.
Ive been shouting for years that Marika and GEQ are twins!
EDIT: halfway through, im seeing the picture now!!
If a woman is born along with a twin, she is much more likely to have twins if she decides to have kids. Marika has had at least 2 confirmed sets of twins, so her being a twin herself makes a lot of sense.
Top tier. So glad that more content creators are getting around to this.
It is very likely that the gloam eyed queen was to Marika, what St. Trina is to Miquella. At the same time. I think she´s been reborn as Melina. Melina says she´s not born from a mother. But that she was born at the erdtree. She doesn´t seem to have her memories right. And her body is burned and the capital is full of ashes. I mean a lot of characters seemed to be reborn. In the end radagon had the rune of the unborn. Maybe they used it o Melina / gloam eyed queen.
makes perfect sense as well. Marika sealed way destined death and "killed" the GEQ which is why melina is now "burned and bodiless" and "lost her purpose long ago"
Would that still make her and Messmer siblings? Because the description of Messmer's Kindling states "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." And the only candidate who fits that description would be Melina, implying that she is the daughter of Marika.
@@NicDotNic "bore a vision of fire" is pretty much what the GEQ had in mind with the god slaying flame. I get what your saying but this is elden ring. The GEQ is not Melina, Melina was reborn, in one of the thousand reborn methods in elden ring. Maybe they used a larval tear. Maybe the put her on a jar at the foot of the erdtree. Remember "all things can be conjoined, come let us learn together"
Radagon is to Marika what St Trina is for Miquella….
Don’t make things more complicated than they are
the alternate selves of empyrians are usually the opposite gender, like radagon and marika or st trina and miquela
Miquella and Malenia are no opposites in my opinion. Malenia is only rotting because she, with the help of her brother, are fighting against it. If you embrace the scarlett rot like Romina is doing, then you become something "beautiful". Just my feeling. Great Video and thx for that. Always searching for other ideas as I do lore videos as well but in german. Keep on
I agree, but I think it also has to do with the pests being like her unwanted children, I don't think she likes being their god
Could Godfrey turning into Hora Loux be like a suddle hint at Marika being the gloom eyed queen?
Except its flipped in reverse
I think I get some of it now. The beast is the Elden Ring. So if Marika Summoned it in the SotE trailer, which many are saying; then The runes all existed before the Elden Ring did. The RING is Order, a circle. The Beast took the Runes into itself and became the Elden Ring. The symbol in Farum Azula is not , "The Farum Azula Elden Ring." Or whatever, it's just the symbol of all of the runes. Marika killed all of the pre-existing Gods / Great Rune holders. Each Outer God had their power symbolized by a great rune. Marika and her Consort Godfrey go along with the Hornsent's plan to make all things into one. In that time Marika split herself like Miquella and St. Trina, to be Life and Death. GEC is born and hunts the Gods to help Marika Unite the Runes. It's why the flames could " Kill Gods." The Divine Beast is given up as sacrifice from the Hornsent. So all can become one. The reason the Elden Beast is summoned by Marika is because she has the last bit of great runes the Greater Will needed to make them all ordered.
Grace and life and holiness is a gift from Marika herself and her ability to tune spirits. She gave gold / life without order at her shaman village. Meaning without the Greater Will. The Golden Order is Golden because Marika is Golden, not because the Greater Will is golden and holy. It just wants complete and total order, like a dickhead.
At some point Marika realized the GW is an uncaring thing. Rennala and Radagan's Daughter Ranni is now chosen to become the new God. Marika who houses the ER will surely have to die for this to happen, if she dies then she cannot stop the GW. She removes the grace from Godwyn and his northern humany people and sends them away so she can summon them back after they go out and die.
This takes a long time, in that time Radagon is summoned back because two are needed for the Rune shit to work for some reason. It's why there are still Godskins all over still. Maliketh is sent to take the Rune of Death and he seals it within his sword. Marika conspires with Ranni which is how pieces of Maliketh's sword were able to be broken off. Radagon just thinks all is going good, he and Marika are one body. Then she starts telling him some shit like , " You're not me, you're not a god." Then one day starts trying to break the Elden Ring. Not sure how a hammer breaks something that's clearly mostly intact and still in your body, but whatever.
Just as miquella abandoned his other half in the quest for godhood, marika may have abandoned the gloam eyed queen in hers. Maybe she sealed her within melina, like she sealed the abyssal serpent within messmer... behind their eye, with different seals, for different gods
Some other lorehound, I'm sorry I can't remember who, commented on how much arboreal imagery there is in the game. And when you talk about trauma leading to birth, they talked about how some trees will produce seeds in abundance, but only under duress, as if a tree is sending seeds far and wide in a last-ditch effort for survival. And that this is what you see when you look at the erdtree seeds that you collect in the game, and the sudden growth of minor erdtrees across the lands.
So...that's definitely a motif. I hadn't connected it to Marika's various children, kinda figured they got born the old fashioned way, but there's more mythic poetry in seeing them as picking up aspects of herself.
Also, as an educated Christian, the whole conversation around persons and identities is giving me flashbacks to learning about the early arguments in the church about how humanity and divinity could ever coexist in one person. It seems like a literal confusion, but if you have different names, there must be some kind of boundary, right?
I had thought this game couldn't be dug into more, but here we are. I start to wonder how much of this was planned and how much is people exploring themselves through the art. Either way, really cool.
Oh my god... in Marika's quest for revenge she hunted down all the avatars of the outer gods and incorporated the runes of each for herself. I believe this was after her and Radaghan's souls and who knows who else were merged in a jar ritual. The god murders were used to make the god skin robes. She became mother to the god skins and directed their cult for an eon. Marika's sentience bubbled to the surface. She took control and discarded the rune of death before ultimately merging the runes.The rune of Death was sealed away in Maliketh and the GEQ's soul in Melina, powerless to take control of her host without her rune. Marika fabricates a story of how Maliketh defeated the GEQ, thus making Marika seem like a hero - a god who presented herself with all the answers. "You will die no more and never cease to be if you follow my Golden Order." She then directed the genocide of the hornsent who had previously tortured her kin into unrecognizable masses of souls and flesh. After the appalling crime was carried out she veiled the shadow tree to hide her past, deeds, and a rival history of faith. And i think the land of the Shadow Tree, the land of death, was separated from this world by sealing the rune of death. And the most fucked up part of it all? A cult leader is hardly a queen right? She was the sanctified queen of the hornsent herself after the first successful jar saint ritual was actualized by her As the GEQ Placidusax was her Elden Lord. And Placidusax got the idea of damning Bayle and his descendants through Dragon Communion rituals from her. Rykard later developed his own interpretation of this ritual to "become familyyyyyyyyyyyy-" by devouring the strong based on this more primitive version. .
it all wraps up neatly doesn't it
I really like this theory but is there any clues or evidence Marika is a successful Jar Saint?
@@unholyzell I think the main clue is that the hornsent didn't have a successful jar saint. They're all marred by failure in every reference to the practice. Additionally an ideal jar saint attempt is said to involve a shaman as the host core. Marika was a Shaman. She evidently left her village for a time for an unstated reason, and, returned to pay her respects to her grandmother/matriarch. Why did she leave? My theory is that she was stewing in a jar. My above statements open the possibility up in the first place. What almost confirms it is that there were at least several people in Marika's body, or rather, the body Marika resides in. Radaghan is seen to physically be in the same body. But... what if there were more originally? The main clue here are her "children". Half of them have the ability to surrender their body to an element of an outer god outright: those born of Radaghan and Marika. Miquella and Malenia have monstrously divine power. I believe those 2 act as evidence Marika was combined with a body that had an affinity for communing with outer gods: the fire giants. Radaghan was born of the flesh of the fire giants that was put into the jar with her. Limited by the size of Marika's Numen body Radaghan arose as an original consciousness. Melina and Messimer both have visions of fire and strawberry blonde/red hair respectively signifying how they're direct offspring of Radaghan and Marika (or... Radaghan and the GEQ). But Melina has the soul of the GEQ sealed in her eye. She is a part of asexually budded flesh from Marika. There are parallels to Malenia who budded her own offspring. Those offspring bear aspects of the parents element. So perhaps the same rule applies to Marika's children. Melina has an affinity for Destined Death so only she can bear it's soul. Meaning the soul of the GEQ was once manifest in Marika's body. True death was still manifest during the purge of the hornsent lest none of the victims could have actually died. She discarded the GEQ like Miquella discarded St. Trina when she had finished her genocide and carried out her crucible ascension to god hood. She needed the identity of the GEQ to pretend to be the promised saint queen of the hornsent so she would be in a position to utterly betray them from the most advantageous position. So we're up to 3 different souls in one body. But the hornsent themselves were used in the jar saint ritual. Mohg and Morgott resemble the curse blade ascetics to a T. We know that failed ascetics who themselves could not ascend to god hood were used as superior crafting material in the jar ritual as they had expertly trained bodies. Their failure to achieve god hood parallels Mohg and Morgott not becoming Imperians. Once Marika hatched she probably obtained the other runes to craft the elden ring by killing the other outer god avatars with Destined Death under the guise of the GEQ (perhaps under the instruction of the Great Serpant we see in Bonnie Village. In her time of need the serpent parallels Satan coming to Eve in Eden tempting her with sin, a plan, and a promise to become a true god) "undergo the trial of the jar, use me as flesh." The Great Serpent could survive incredible bodily harm as demonstrated by Rykard so it's vitality got Marika to the other side of the ritual. The soul of the GEQ came from that snake. Which is why the GEQ's children have the unnatural physiology of serpents.
This jar making event of combining
hornsent ascetics, fire giants, great serpents, and a Numen tree shaman was the perfect storm to create a truly powerful being. Placidusax himself bowed to this entity and became the first Elden Lord. The consort of the GEQ.
I've been saying this for a long time now. It's kind of the only option available given what we've been told.
I have my quibbles here and there but overall I think this is spot on. Marika creates clonal daughters that inherent aspects of herself.
And another lore vid adds to Marika’s body count.
F&&k it, she birthed EVERYTHING lol
(No seriously, this went from “cool theory” to *genuine* implications that you well established!
I like it! Not sure “where” I weigh in anymore. Reasons for that, but it’d be TL;DR
But I’ve gotta hand it to you, to reiterate you’ve truly thrown some stones on the table w/this vid &
whether “right” or “wrong” (starting to think you’re right or at least def on the path)-this was a sincere dive.
Glad I ran across you, this was thorough & intriguing
-subbed. Nicely done👍
She only had 7 confirmed kids over the course of thousands of years. No one's mentioning Radagon's "body count".
@@WobblesandBean well that’s my point
Radagon IS Marika
-plus I’m obviously being humorous; so there’s that
I agree with the premise that the DLC didn't include GEQ content because the devs said everything they wanted to say about her in the base game. But I think the answer is the most obvious one... it's Melina.
Messmer really sealed the deal on this for me. His abyssal serpent behind his eye, sealed by grace, and unleashed when he breaks the seal. When we trigger the frenzied flame ending, we sever whatever force was sealing the aspect of the GEQ within Melina, be it grace or something else.
All of Marika's children are cursed. Many have some form of alter ego, including Marika herself. So would the aspect of the GEQ within Melina be a curse or an alter ego, a combination of the 2? Idk, but if it's something that needs to be sealed away, it sounds more like a bad thing. I could easily believe someone so closely connected to Destined Death could go apeshit and want to kill many things. But then again, I could also see that same person thinking that bestowing Destined Death upon someone is actually a good thing, a sort of blessing in disguise - or at the very least not view it as a bad thing. Either way it could be a problem for Marika.
Being Messmer's sister, being closely connected to him, and being around when the crucible is still very much a big thing brings the serpent motif and serpentine nature of the Godskin apostles into the equation somehow - though admittedly that is the weakest area of the theory.
Her eye tattoo looking like a beast claw, possibly representing her defeat by Maliketh. Though why you'd want something that would possibly remind someone of thing you're supposed to be sealing away, idk.
Obviously it isn't perfect, but I think the good points outweigh the bad. But those are just my general thoughts.
But if it's not Melina, your explanation is the next best imo. Honestly I really wanted the GEQ to be Marika's twin. I even thought they might be doing a play on words with Godskin also meaning "God's Kin". But nope. Ngl, I'm still pretty disappointed we got nothing about the GEQ in the dlc, and next to nothing about Godwyn.
@@been_rly_n2_paragliding_lately personally I think it's more likely melina inherited marika gloam eye, but when death was sealed so was it . If the elden ring was part of marika. Once death was taken from it and sealed away it would make sense it was sealed from melina as well. The same way melina lost her gold eye when the golden order fell. Chatgpt overlords agrees that it's more likely melina is associated rather than directly is the GEQ
Just wanted to mention that the mark over her eye looks a lot more like a deathbird talon than a beast claw imo, which connects her even more to destined death!
@@1SilverVixen1 problem with deathbirds is there feet and hands don't really look like talons and they are 4 apendages not 3
@@Turner6277 Gravebirds, then perhaps? Those also have a connotation to death. Melina's eye mark just looks much more bird-like than beastial to me.
@@1SilverVixen1 Gravebirds makes more sense to me. However from what iv seen the mark is unique.
It was crazy when I randomly found this
I'm picking up what you're putting down!
Man, that's a lot of thematic echoes to try and digest o.O
It seemed pretty clear to me that Marika was the Gloam Eyed Queen before she was defeated and subdued by Maliketh. After her dirty work as the GEQ was finished the GW tricked her into becoming the vessel of the GW and she has been enslaved by the GW since. Given this, she endeavoured for millenia to undo the GW. This includes the Night of Black Knives, sending Godfrey away, Sending Radagon to Renalla, sending Melina to assist our tarnished and even bestowing grace onto our un-named Tarnished.
How utterly sick would it be if:
1. Upon releasing the rune of death from Maliketh, you put the needle in and remove the Frenzied Flame from your soul after Melina dumps you if she came back in some capacity as the revived aspect of the Gloam Eyed Queen anyway?
2. The God Skin black flame incantations returned to their former glory as true Destined Death incantations ince she returns?
My build would immediately change to accommodate whatever Destined Death and the og Black Flame require.
Throwing pulsing purple flames with the ability to deal heavy arcane, magic, holy, fire, and cold damage all at once. The true power of the Black Flame of Destined Death!
@@austinwinstead6543fuck that
I think this puts together a bit about Maliketh. As Marika's shadow he not only weilds destined death, but seals it after the night of the black knives. This would mean that death is Marika's shadow until the night of the black knives when death is sealed away. Therefore Marika likely used death as a weapon of vengeance until that power was used against her children, at which point she realises her vulnerability and seals it away out of fear. That fear is what then drives her to seal away Messmer and create the Golden Order, because without death the Erdtree no longer works and now pure faith is needed to keep her Godhood going.
So essentially it would appear the Gloam Eyed Queen was Marika before the Golden Order. She used it as a weapon and at some point it was used against her / her family, which made her afraid of it, and so she had Maliketh lock it away to keep it from being able to harm her or her children, as it was the only weapon directly able to do so. Eventually Ranni abused that very fact with the Night of the Black Knives. That ends up making quite abit of sense. Perhaps what made the Greater Will decided to merge Marika and Radagon into godhood directly was because Marika as the Gloam Eyed Queen, created order, but that method eventually became unstable due to the risk against herself. So she began the Golden Order as an alternate means to maintain order, and thus favor from The Greater Will, in order to keep her godhood intact.
My only question after that line of thought becomes, who is the Grandmother, because it portrays Marika as either worshipping or being afraid of her, and never being the same after the encounter.
You'd think Ranni's shadow being a dog with cold powers to reflect her dark moon and ice witch powers and Marika's shadow being an edgelord ultra goth death dog would be a bigger clue
The Gloam-Eyed Queen is the new Nameless King. Incredibly important to the lore, but we won't see them until the third game.
much much more like Velka….
A mysterious goddess from an unknown religion who had many past influence on the main story and we never get to see her beside some meaningfull vague item descriptions.
And kind of a connection to the black flame
Messmer was more like the nameless king…
The firstborn from the reigning god, who was banished by his parents and who was a great leader in war and great fighter
@@TheSolarium18 That implies that like Velka, we're never going to fight the GEQ and I'd prefer not to think of that.
That was a great watch
Thank you!
Another very cool take. Loving your videos dude!
"Made from patches of smooth skin," you say?
Someone we know has smooth skin, and is literally named Patches. Coincidence? I think NOT! Patches is the Gloam-Eyed Queen confirmed.
This is a pretty good essay it points out some pretty obvious revelations even though they have yet to be confirmed, but they seem very promising
Marika birthing a child is basically getting rid of one of her aspects that she gained before when she was melded together in the jar becoming a god
Looks like you overthought this. While I love people deciphering lore based on indirect material, we can't just ignore the direct material. Ex: Messmer's Kindling;
The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler.
A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent.
Burns the sealing tree said to be found at the old Rauh ruins.
Messmer, much like his younger SISTER, bore a vision of fire.
Its rather implied that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen and therefore its implied that Melina is Messmer's sister. So the question then becomes how trustworthy is the information? Was it someone's opinion or just what has been accepted by the people through the generations. Well, I'm to believe that 'Messmer's Kindling' is rather truthful being that it was literally part of him, so hearsay can be thrown out. Then we get another key word, 'Kindling' like the kindling maiden (Melina) as described by her weapon Blade of Calling;
Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent.
The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death.
In summation, I'm glad you went through the lore as the information could lead to other theories but its rather clear (which doesn't happen often) that Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen at some point and the sister to Messmer, making her a daughter of Marika. Also Radagon is clearly Marika's other self obviously not Melina, the game made that blatantly clear.
Great vid, lots to think about! I did not notice where the snakeskin near Bonny Village was looking, I definitely agree that has something to do with the origins of the GEQ and probably Marika too. One disagreement: I don't think the statues in the Rauh ruins can be Marika, because the timeline doesn't add up. The Rauh ruins seem to be from a time before the Hornsent culture was formed, and Marika used a Hornsent gate to become a god (given Miquella's arc and the story trailer, I think she definitely became a god using the Hornsent gate). The ruins in the Lands of Shadow all appear much older than the Hornsent culture, and the Hornsent seem to have built some of their settlements around the ruins. There are lots of clues around the Rauh ruins that point towards an ancient faith that focused on plant life and the crucible, and the Church of the Bud appears to be a recent attempt to revive or reincorporate that faith. Some of the pests (who have become servants of the Church of the Bud) are worshipping the female statues in the ruins, so this is probably a god associated with plant life. Marika also being a female god associated with trees does make it seem likely she's associated with the Rauh statues, but I don't think they're the same person. Maybe this was a god that she took her powers from, or merged with when she used the divine gate?
I don't have a great theory for what's up with the statue in Farum Azula, but I think it's possible that statue was erected long after Farum Azula fell into ruin. Maybe it's Marika and maybe it isn't, but either way I think the age of Placidusax came long before Marika's reign and featured a different god. That's because dragons appear to be the most ancient of all creatures, so Marika being their god also doesn't make sense for the timeline.
There's one thing mentioned here that bothers me about this, if you claim Messmer is directly connected to the Godskins, why doesn't he have the Black Flame?
The gloom eyed “Queen” “Queen Marika”
Even with bad audio your videos are still good
I’m sold.
Finally someone said it, about frigging time 😂
The girl surrounded by the wolves is probably geq, there is an area with too many wolves in the shadowland
Brilliant deductions 👏 👏 👏 I love this channel!
This is a great video. The GEQ could be Marika's mother and Radagon could be Marika's twin.
Look forward to your next video
But, your thesis on comparing character story arcs is great. The analysis of writing techniques in general can be helpful.
Like, Chekhov's Gun, where a theme is introduced early and is later tired back into the plot as an important element.
Like the "lion" symbol for the Hornsent and Godfrey. It sets up Radahn as a "golden lion" at the end of the DLC.
Yeaaah, the audio quality is much better in this one. Thanks!
Howdy there I have 2 theories about Melina and Messmer:
1) Marika was present during the Gloomed eyes queen Reign. As a saint or Emperyan she had Radagon and had twin during the reign. Before the great betrayal, l think Messmer And Melina has been arround the GEQ. They have been close that the GYQ sealed some of her power in the left Eyes of Melina(this is not a grace seal). And that is why Messmer might has been ordered by marika to burn to death Melina, and then Marika had denough and took power etc...
2) Radagon had Messmer and Melina with the GEQ. and Radagon killed the GEQ. In the video for the DLC when "Marika" do the position in Front of the gates after taking grace from the corps she has a lack of upper woman part that seems odd to me. Thas is why messmer looks pale and has snakes (abyssal in the right) and Melina has the GEQ in her left. After taking power Marika act like the mother of them both but has no interrest and don't care about them. Messmer still has burned his litle sister down in Marika name and Marika disposed of him in the Land of Shadow after. Radagon is Marika Marika is Radagon. They believe to be hers. They kinda are but not like they think they are.
Smough got us curiouse bout the snek😂
flame of frenzy is definitely pollen clouds.. because ragweed pollen can make your eyes burn, and make you frustrated to the point of frenzy. Ask anyone with bad allergies, they will agree.
This video is excellent. Good stuff man. I've never heard the psychological explanation of this game but I found it particularly convincing.
Elden Ring has many connections but the thing is they're not exactly obvious due to those connections being broken. So sometimes what's not being said is just as if not more important than what was actually said. In DS1-3 and Bloodborne you have to accept what they say at face value. In Elden Ring they'll lie to you. I still see popular Elden Ring channels like Miss Chalice still not understand that Miquella hated Radogan but due to a Spell description she believes he was "Giving him gifts" because that's what the text says. But the spell is essentially telling the story of how Radogan gave him everything and how Miquella threw it back at his face.
Plz explain how Miquella hated Radagon.. genuinely curious.
@@TeaGarrison that reality is like my head canon too; Miquella losing faith in the Golden Order.
I think that snake skin is Messmer shedding it after slaughtering the hornsent that were torturing Shamans in the Bonny Village. That caused Marika to seal the base serpent behind his eye to keep it in check. And he indeed never turned into a snake again (until his fight we meet him of course)
I like the idea merika and the gloam eyed queen were the same as her and radagon. And instead of splitting off as radagon did for a time merika killed her other half the gloam eyed queen. But she didn't stay dead not entirely ranni and godwyn are proof that death can be avoided in some seance, perhaps she died in body alone and her soul remained and got to rikard or perhaps menina was the gloam eyed queen reborn but changed by merika to not remember her past. It is only if we do the frenzy ending and Melina lives that the gloam eye comes out.
While I am more inclined to believe that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, serving to eliminate opposition to Marika and then cast aside by her similar to how Messmer was used, I think the twin theory is also valid. We don't really have confirmation and what difference would it make, so believe whatever you like.
Either way, it is my opinion that the GEQ eliminated other gods which potentially held threads of the Elden Ring. After their death, Marika collected these threads as you can see in the dlc trailer, and brandished the Elden Ring.
However, there must have been a point when the GEQ and Marika came to disagree with one another. Marika seemed to want an eternal order with neverending life, but the GEQ represents the necessary force of death in the world.
Perhaps this dispute between them led to Maliketh defeating the GEQ. If it truly was Melina, then the statue in Farum Azula may have been of her, and that may have been her seat of power until Maliketh defeated her. Then, the tie between Melina, Torrent, Ranni, and the 3 lone wolf ashes would begin to make sense.
Anyway, this has been a lot of rambling but she truly is the most fascinating character in the game to me.
Messmer's crusade against the Hornsent came late on the history. We know than Rellana joined Messmer, and since the Carians were against the Golden Order until Rennala married Radagon.
I believe Marika's revenge came after long after she'd defeated all of her original enemies and conquered the Lands Between, when she returned home only to find her village decimated. Only then did she turn on the Hornsent.
Great stuff. I have always believed that Marika was the gloam eyed queen all along, so it's refreshing to see someone sharing that belief. Fun fact: godwyn is called the prince of death. I assume that it means his mother (Marika), is the queen of death. I do not think that is a coincidence. What do you think?
Is anyone else noticed that eyeballs are very important in this world and that all the demigods have one eye open when I closed and that the scar seals and seals of Ragon America are both eyeballs and that has a scar seal eye that covers the serpent within
The original description for the apostle robes imply that it was DemiGod skin, they used so between that and the wandering mausoleums i think the GEQ god hunt was to sacrifice amarikas unwanted kids
This was the first time I've heard GRRM's voice, and I can't say I'm surprised
I believe you are correct. The Hornsent were attempting to blend various aspects together to create the perfect being, a saint, or what would be called today an empyrean. I also believe that the expulsion of the aspect of death, the gloam eyed queen, was the betrayal the hornsent hate Marika for since with the removal of death the crucible would cease to function and life would no longer blend into one
This also explains the Misbegotten. They always seemed fabricated to me and I long wondered WHY they were called Misbegotten, but now I know :They were the failures in the Hornsent experiments/rituals.
I wonder if the inquisitors are the "gods" for the god hunt. They have tangled horns that signify divinity (in their culture), they use barbs based incantations which almost look like rune arcs, they are worshiped upon their deaths as tutelary deities, their internal names are "GodMan____", and they have rags covering their faces and most parts of their bodies - as if to cover huge wounds (maybe just part of their ascetic practice, but strange that the curseblades and the actual deities didn't!)
If Marika and GEQ are rival empyreans, they logically would have been against the power of the age - the Hornsent "gods". GEQ's defeat by Maliketh might be the reason why Marika was embraced by the Hornsent at first, until the crusade.
The knight of putrescence was called the glomite knight in the game code at some point during development so I think that the glomite queen What's planned to play a big part in the story of the shadow of the erdtree but they had to cut it for whatever reason
I don’t remember where I’ve seen it. it originated in Japan we are discarded offspring of Mirika and the beginning of our game is our birth in a mausoleum. Which lore wise house her discarded offspring. Our power is as someone put were a fantasy terminator. That makes everything make sense because only an Empyrm can take the throne. I like the theory.
im pretty sure melina is being set up to becoming the antagonist for elden ring 2
which also hints at the company taking a more coherent approach to the story telling, dark souls 1-3 were more or less standing by themselves segregated from eachother - but they might take a different approach with this game since they even went ahead and hired GRRM... lets hope he finishes this story though xD
I still believe that the player tarnished is a reassurected child of marika, due to the cinematic intro sounding like a wondering mosolieum
This is a really thought provoking video, you did incredible in laying it all out.
A hypothesis I randomly thought of while digesting this, is if Miquella had to divest himself of his flesh (ie St Trina being an embodiment of his love) Marika had to have done the same, yes?
Radagon is speculated to be the embodiment of her loyalty to the Elden Ring or whatever, but what if the Gloam Eyed Queen was her rage/desire for revenge against the hornsent/former or outer gods? What dictates which emotions can be cast aside when divesting oneself? I feel like it could be believable to consider oneself a “child” of someone who brought you into life, and Melina and Marika have similar features (Numen features?).
Idk just some random shower thoughts as the video rolls!
I think you are exactly right. Miquella abandons many things, fears, doubts, flesh, etc. I suspect Marika did the same. Miquella's final cross in the tower reads "I abandon here all my fears"..... well, if death was a fear or Marika's I would suspect this is the place she abandoned the GEQ aspect of herself. Fear and terror left in the shadow.
From a psychological perspective, it's up to the individual which aspects they want to suppress in their shadow. For example, many men will suppress emotions of caring and vulnerability while women will tend to suppress things like assertion. It all depends on what they want the world to see them as.
12:29 there are also 7 black knife assassins killing Godwin
7 is just a very "ominous" number in western culture, like 3. In eastern culture it would be 6 or 13.
Also, I have no idea where the idea comes from that the demigods in the seven mausoleums were killed at the night of black knives? Wouldn´t makte any sense. Ranni just needed the one death to get rid of her body. And the other demigods were "Marikas unwanted children"
I still like the theory more that the Tarnished is one of these unwanted demigods.
the gloam eyed queen couldve been marika’s other half much like miquella’s other half st trina. she sealed it away with her shadow bound self somehow and yada yada yada, its less vague than fromsoft itself at least
i think the elden ring, which seems to govern the laws of nature in this world, existed before marika, possibly within the crucible, and that it was control over the crucible that earlier civilizations (and gods) fought each other for. both the hornsent and the nox civilizations were performing horrible experiments trying to create their own gods,, the dragons performed communion to ascend to godhood, Mohg was trying to turn Miquella into a god, and the giants and followers of the frenzied flame became hosts of their Outer God, who literally lived inside them. in other words, gods aren't simply born: they're made, by people, along with the help of an Outer God. in that sense, the hornsent succeeded in "creating" marika as a god, either because she too underwent the process of jarring, or because the trauma of witnessing her people go through it drove her to ally herself with the Greater Will. when it came time to ascend to the throne, she needed to have control of the elden ring. so she "seduced" the hornsent by convincing them she was the created god they'd worked so hard for, and then, after her ascension, she "betrayed" them by committing genocide against them.
i think "the gloam eyed queen" is a title rather than a specific person. in ancient times, she possessed the rune of destined death, and it was her job to ensure that everything returned to the crucible, including gods, with the godskins as her agents. maliketh killed her and took the rune of death on marika's command. and at some point, whether it was because she was disgusted by the slaughter of the hornsent, the suffering of the people who kept coming back to life just to suffer again and again, losing her brother when the shadow realm and the lands between were divided, or maybe because marika herself begged for death, if we're assuming that marika tasked hewg with making a weapon to kill her, melina took on the role of the gloam eyed queen. i think the most plausible scenario is that melina was summoned to the erdtree, tried to burn it all down, and destroyed herself in the process, being reduced to a wandering spirit with only echoes of her memories to guide her. the godskins were masterless, and went off on their own missions. i think the one we see near liurnia's divine tower was probably there to assist ranni in the rite of the night of the black knives that killed her body and godwyn's soul. the noble would be the one to know how the rune works, after all. the noble in volcano manor might have allied himself with rykard because rykard was trying to kill the gods, and the duo in farum azula might've been there to try to get the rune back.
as far as the spirit tuner from hewg's past goes, that's still very much open to speculation. i don't think it's far-fetched to assume that miquella, torrent's former master according to the teaser art for the expansion, who also bequeaths to us the spirit calling bell through ranni, studied magic with the carians and learned spirit tuning from seluvis, just as ranni did, perhaps in pursuit of a cure for malenia. you can't rot if you're a puppet, can you? there are quite a few st trina's and miquella's lilies around ranni and renna's rises. it would've been there that he would've been introduced to the albinaurics and would've developed rapport with them, and of course, where he would've met radahn. i also think it's reasonable to assume miquella and ranni were allies at some point, given the ghost at castle sol talking about trying to bring about an eclipse.
What if great runes are part of these gods, and the god hunt was actually a way to create the Elden Ring? And Marika took it away from the GEQ
Kate the Kind got me here. We need a collab video my man!
16:14 That fits so well!
Me to my wife: “I learned twins run on the maternal side and since Marika had 2 sets of twins, she could be a twin.”
My wife: “Radagon”
1 fact thay reinforces this, is that miquella and st trina are opposites ( yellow and purple) same colors of marika and the gloam eyed queen
They're never described as having THE Elden Ring, but The Gloam Eyed Queen had the Death Rune. How would she have this if there wasn't parts of the Elden Ring?
I'm open to the GEQ being Marika's twin on top of being a former Shaman, only because it adds to why we're never told the Gloam-Eyed Queen is killed. Defeated =/= Killed. Plus, she's Death incarnate. Much like a spirit, how do you actually kill it?
I think you're correct on their not being Demigods when the Godskins had power, but we also forget Eiglay/Rykard yearn to devour the "very Gods."
Between the two snakes, there's the symbolism of the Ouroboros. Like Yin and Yang, it represents destruction and rebirth. The Abyssal Serpent seeks to destruction while Eiglay seeks kinship.
The Fell God and The Gloam Eyed Queen have a myriad of ties together through Mt. Gelmir. Rancorcall and Magma sorceries are both defined as hexes. Both have one eye that is destructive and channels flame. “The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of destined death”. This would also explain why the Flame Monks were so easily seduced.
With the four combined, they are like transitional seasons. After the Fell God came Marika's age. After/During Marika comes Radagon like Fall. Without the Death Rune, there is no "Winter," or the Zeitgeist "Death of the Sun." Without it, Radagon cannot transition, ruining the immortality of the God to be.
Radagon yearned to be "complete," so what was he doing with the Egg?
We do meet a Gloam colored character in the DLC. "Those who know poison know Rot all too well." Putrescence is rotted flesh.
What if, marika sacrificed the hornsent but isn't the betrayal we hear in the trailer, we hear the betrayal from the hornsent for them but can be a lesser betrayal and the greater betrayal was marika taking the destined death rune from the gloomed eyed queen, going through the portal, giving the rune to maliketh and granting no death in her golden order so she hidden one remembrance (the sword) in caelid.
if we trace back even more the first sin and mistake i think was the same with the two and three fingers, the two fingers sealed away the three fingers( order sealed away chaos) and chaos happened anyway, that is why the three fingers want to burn it all way so the two and three can be one again, though personally not sure if that is the right way, maybe a mending could be better.
I'm still convinced that the Gloam Eyed Queen is the other aspect of Melina, the other child of Marika's union with the great serpent in the land of shadow along with Mesmer. She left Mesmer behind to continue her vengeance on the land of shadow and burying her past while Melina/GEQ was to be the tip of her spear in wiping out the old gods of the lands between (her opposition to ultimate power). Once the deed was done she was put down by Maliketh before she became too powerful to stop and sealed away. Her return as Melina was likely brought about by Mohg under the influence of Miquella (the clue being Varre being first to greet us on our emergence). This is Miquellas plan B after his ascendance was stalled by Malenia not being powerful enough to put Radahn down after Ranni had Godwyn (his first choice for consort) killed, the plan was that the tarnished would put down any opposition to Miquellas ascent and get rid of Melina/GEQ before being felled by his chosen consort Radahn. This is the cycle of power, using pawns to clear the board and then sacrificing them to protect the monarch.
I still think there are something to be said about some things just being lost in translation from Japanese to English. Games are notoriously known for this over the years, and it is still difficult because there are concepts and words that really don't have a directly translatable way to English. Would be great to have a rundown from a fluent Japanese & English speaker who's played through both.
It makes sense. Miquella severed St.Trina from himself in his quest to godhood, proving the theory that they were the same person, correct.
That is a very good analysis. If Merika/GEQ were the god of the first Elden Ring then the history can be broken up into five parts: Pre-Elden Ring/Crucible Era, Elden Ring creation grafted on the Crucible, Golden Order and Erd Tree, Golden Order with no Rune of Death, Post Shattering. Merika was the first and possibley the only shaman turned into a saint in the 1st era. She became a god with Placidusax as her elden lord in the 2nd age. She fled/abandoned Placidusax to create the Golden Order and Erd Tree in the third age. The third age is when there were Erd Tree burrials and the Erd Tree sap flowed and gave blessings. She also took on Godfrey as her Elden Lord (the first elden lord of the new Golden Order era). Then Merika cast off her other self, the GEQ, and removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. She exiled Godfrey and took on her other self, Radigon as Elden Lord. Then came the Shattering which lead to the current era.
We know Merika wasnt a god when Placidusax reigned though is the problem. The Dragonlords functioned with Placidusax as the one and only, no other. He also maintained the Elden Ring at that time. Marika's reign began when The Greater Will eventually favored her. So my headcanon so far is that Destined Death wasnt part of the Lands Between until the end of Placidusax reign, which may be where the Gloam Eyed Queen / Marika precursor, came from. As the Gloam Eyed Queen, she undid the reign of the dragonlords with Destined Death as her Great Rune. In fear the dragongods abandoned The Lands Between and Placidusax locked himself away, locked in the time vortex. (as we still dont know exactly why the dragongods left the dragons to fend for themselves.)
After the reign of the Dragons ends, The Greater Will looks to the next sense of stability and order, which was the rising Gloam Eyed Queen using Destined Death as a weapon against opponents. The Gloam Eyed Queen erradicated / scared off the hornsent's gods from The Lands Between. And so, the Elden Ring was passed from Placidusax to her. Destined Death was combined with the Elden Ring, which made death universal to the Lands Between, as the Elden Ring acts like a Worldstone equivalent from Diablo. Someone or something eventually uses Destined Death against The Gloam Eyed Queen which makes her afraid of it being part of the Elden Ring, thus she separates it from the Elden Ring and binds it to Maliketh. She then forms the Golden Order to help maintain order and stability to remain favored by The Greater Will and retain godhood. She becomes known as Queen Marika during this period and Radagon becomes her consort of that Golden Order and the Erd Tree. Ranni eventually steals the rune of death and uses it against her again, causing chaos, which makes The Greater Will rescind Merika's godhood because she has then allowed chaos to spread, ultimately killing her, but Radagon remaining partly alive.
anyone: aspects.
me, a elden ring fan: aspects of the crucible.
The fact that we got nothing solid around her or a boss fight is criminally lazy
Sometimes I wonder if Fromsoft intentionally leaves much of the story ambiguous with the intention that fans will come up with their own theories to fill in the gaps of the plot, and than Fromsoft just chooses which ones make the most sense to choose as the canon story lol.
It would be a much easier way to do the story while also making far more interesting for fans as a sort of puzzle to figure out, and if any of the fans happen to be 'correct' in their theories than that also makes the fans happier as a result for managing to 'figure out' the plot from barely any concrete information lol. It is all speculation without evidence but a thought I frequently come to regardless.
Oh definitely. Miyazaki actually says that's how he does the lore. Makes it incredibly loose so we can come up with our own story. Apparently he did this as a child when learning english. He couldn't read everything so just came up with a story he enjoyed. That's his inspiration for story-telling.
My guess is he has a full story that is "cannon" but takes things out and intentionally obscures things to make it nearly impossible to figure out the "true" story.
@@CenteredTarnished Really!, that's awesome. I guess that idea really does work, because it just made me happy for managing to 'figure it out' with barely information lol. That is a good idea though since it makes far less work for the devs freeing their time to work on other aspects of the games while also getting the fans much more engaged in the game even outside of actually playing the game to figure out mysteries and whatnot. Thank you for the information 👍👍👍, I haven't actually heard that from Miyazaki before.
I do not know how to give a 'heart or love thing' that you did on my post so I gave a 'like' instead but will change it once I figure out how to lol.
@@JohnU1515 haha no worries! a like is great!
Yeah, I think this is why Miyazaki games are so interesting and hold the attention of lore enthusiast for so long. We "know" there is a "correct/ cannon" version out there but it's damn near impossible to figure out because of Miyazaki's style.
@@CenteredTarnished lol you got that right. It is interesting trying to find out what is the truth in the stories, but not gonna lie, it drives me nuts not knowing what the truth is because I can't stand not knowing things that I am not interested in lol.
It is funny watching Zelda fans try to come up with theories though. Those games are not really deep when it comes to lore so when they find the smallest of details and blow it wayy out of proportion and the theory isn't even close to the reality lol. Although this example is actually a relevant detail it still was very far off reality, that is the Zonai Ruins in Breath Of The Wild.
Before Tears Of The Kingdom came out and there was only Trailers, there was countless videos of who and what the Zonai were and that on a Mural an 'Ancient Hero' was Ganondorf who was good, which was the complete opposite of what happened lol.
I noticed when it comes to theories, Fromsoft fans are far better at drawing conclusions to the surrounding lore and characters than Zelda fans are. My guess why at least is probably because 1) Fromsoft games are just better at that stuff, 2) The games are far more coherent, & 3) Fromsoft fans pay more attention to details and are better at figuring out what would make more sense in the context of the story/world. Not sure if you have seen any of the Tears Of The Kingdom theories on UA-cam but wow quite a few were very bad lol.
Elden Ring lore would not be as popular as it is if they gave you the answers. I will be thinking about Marika for literally the rest of my life lmao and I will never have my answers