Pre Bonny and Shaman Villages: How could such atrocities be committed on these people? Post Bonny and Shaman Villages: Total Hornsent death. Unlimited jihad against the Hornsent forever.
@@TheAnomaly00 There was a commenter on another video who said that they defeated Messmer not because he was commiting genocide against the Hornsent but to replace him because Messmer wasn't getting the job done quickly enough.
@@ravendelacour1917And you start the game, thinking poor Hornsent, evil Marika, evil Messmer, they burned them alive. Then you learn all of this horror, and you feel bad for clapping Messmer 😂
@@normanbates7373 Well there are still living Hornsent, so Messmer hasn't gotten the job done yet. Mom isn't letting him come home until he gets his chores done.
This really does answer the riddle of the Chanting Winged Dame: "Alas, that land, once blessed, now has diminished. We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished. We have lamented and we have shed tears. But no one consoles us. Golden one, at whom were you angry?"
There's a theory that since eyes are related to power many times in the game, that blindfolding the Shaman was another form of stripping them of power and agency.
meeting the people in the jars is probably the most disturbing moment for me in the DLC. i was not expecting that at all! i look forward to more of your DLC videos!!!!
So that’s why she hated the Hornsent and why the Omens were so shunned. They were a painful reminder of her past that she tried to bury by hiding the Omen under the City, in the sewers where she thinks they belong
And you realize that even tho she was in the wrong for doing so, and that she could have went past it with effort for her sons, she was also very lenient compared to the hornsent
It would make sense for the practice of grafting being seen as vile and forbidden in the lands between if it originated from the practices of the hornsent, true
@@Eizengoldt Not true. All badlands inhabitants at least were not Shaman in origin. Also we don not know the exact relationship between the Shamans and the Numen. But it is more than likely that at least the Nox and the Carians were not related to the Numen.
@MaledictGaming So 'Shaman' is actually a slight mistranslation of 'Miko' which means 'shrine-maiden' in Japanese. The Shaman _are_ Numen. Shaman Village is likely just a Numen colony.
I wonder if that specific Hornsent who said these cruel words to the shamans lived long enough to be subject to similar cruelties by Messmer’s crusaders when they invaded. I don’t know how long Hornsent lived but assuming he lived to see the crusade take place, I can only imagine it shifting from him whipping shamans with tooth whips and shoving them in jars like it's an ordinary day to him being captured by the crusaders before enduring days of being beaten and branded by serpent flails while being yelled at with slurs and obscenities by them such as being “Graceless scum” who’s only purpose is to be hunted, dehorned, impaled and burned before being forced to march alongside fellow Hornsent who’ve been rounded up, beaten, branded and dehorned to a furnace golem that has yet to come to life. As the Hornsent are being pushed and crammed inside the golem to the point where’s it’s getting hard to breathe, they are given a speech by a Black Knight captain who says that though they are graceless vermin with no place in the order, their lives will at least serve one purpose: as kindling for their holy crusade. The Hornsent suddenly reminisces on those shamans back in Bonny Village and realizes that he has become a victim to the same cruelties he inflicted on them. However, he has no time to think of his current predicament as the crusaders set the golem aflame and the screams of countless Hornsent and the stench of their burning flesh fill the air as the golem comes to life. So ends the life of one Hornsent among hundreds, now used to fuel a lifeless machine of death and murder as it marches onto the battlefield. And so, the crusade continues.
Extremely well-written. The line about the Black Knight captain telling them their place is in the furnace is chilling. Absolutely love this visualization of the story, thank you for sharing your beautifully written words!
@@kitetales Thanks! While everyone is understandably focused on the disturbing revelations about the Jars and Marika's past, I've yet to see people discuss Messmer's Crusade of the Land of Shadow at length with all the different forms of cruelty inflicted by the crusaders on the Hornsent such as the Serpent Flails, itself a direct contrast to the Tooth Whip, or the fascinating and unsettling design of the Furnace Golems.
this is exactly the kind of stuff i see and hear in my head when im running around elden ring. when i was in the store room i saw that one human looking giant specimen, strung up the same way marika was crucified. the same way tarnished are crucified. i couldnt figure it out , but all i could see were flashes of that same pose flooding my mind. i wonder what the significance is of being strung up like that, because even her statues depict this pose. but obviously its not a dignified pose, its one of almost acceptance of no control. going limp in the arms of a cosmic being too powerful to fight against so your head just hangs in defeat
The Greater Will is a cosmic karmic entity that allows certain fated indivuduals to ascend to godhood and enact their vision of order, not unlike in Berserk. Ascending into godhood Marika creates a golden age with no destined death, and where the bodies and spirits of her subjects are recycled into the order itself, through Erdtree burial, and never truly anihilated. We can meet happy and joyful jars in this world, seeking kind potentates with soft hands. It's literally the jar heaven tortured shamen prayed for, brought about by Marika the godess as a sublimation of her trauma.
The way the description of the Hornsent's experience became much more vivid once he became the victim and not the perpetrator, showing both the atrocities of Messmer's crusade AND of the hornsent, to show that it went from one who benefits from suffering to one that is used for it... this comment lives in my mind every day because of how well you wrote out that parallel and if I could I would write you down in my sources for my English homework over parallels I would.
My theoryu about Marika is that she wasn't the last survivor, she was actually the first and only successful Saint the Hornsent created, which meant they were killed by the god they created
Sadly that doesn't really make sense, though, since her golden braid being left behind for the village grandmother likely would've happened while the village was still around.
People like to complain about the DLC not having any info on the Gloam Eyed Queen but we've got flesh-flaying rituals, special knights with fingerprint association, and connection to the Crucible. It feels like there's so much in the DLC to provide for the rise of both Marika and the Gloam Eyed Queen as Empyreans.
the jars lore is one of the most disturbing things ever, like wow, the way in wich they make me recoil from just the thought of the process. and ohgod when I found that minor Erdtree Incantation I was SO close to tears like damn, this game has always been sad, but somehow it gets MORE AND MORE SAD the more you learn 😭. I love it.
While your video was the most detailed, there’s few things you can add 1) it seems merika was not spared this brutality as well, proof is in the trailer when she reaches for the golden hairs, you can see the tooth marks from the whip in her hand 2) it seems Marika rise to saint hood through jar ritual did work, and that might be one explanation how Marika and radagon are one, in short, they were jar buddies 3) some of those melted shamans from close up look quiet similar to radagon 4) Marikas betrayal could be that she rose to sainthood from the jar and therefore was spared and sort of accepted by the hornset and then later she turned on them. Because there is no way they would have spared her and allowed her to live unless she either banged their leader or she became a saint
Ohhh that is such a good theory!! Her and Radagon being in the pot together, yes!! I love that. I missed the whip marks on her hands as well what a great observation!!
@@kitetales Another thing is that people may try to disprove the radagon and merika theory by brining up miquella and st Trina. But now that the dlc is out, they look nothing alike and st Trinas birth seems to be like Millicent, in the sense that her (millicent) birth came most likely when malenia blossomed, so her birth is like that of a bud. For st Trina, if you see bonfireVN latest video on st Trina, her body is half plant and half human. So miquella, while shedding his body parts, might have given rise through st Trina from his blood, body parts falling and then growing into st Trina. but Marika and radagon are 2 whole human beings and there like are not seen anywhere in the base game or dlc.
After finding Bonny village and Shaman village, I no longer want to kill Mesmer for his atrocities against the Hornsent, but to replace him and finish the job he was slacking on.
@@TheAnomaly00cycle of violence my friend. The cruelty marika may be justified to some point but never to wipe them all out. Revenge against the ones who dealt the suffering, of course, but not against the whole race indiscriminately, the elderly, the young, the weak and the ones who opposes that as well. Following that cruelty is what left her family in shambles, her treatment to anything resembling the crucible, her burying a whole clan below leyndell and her own sons too. Her trauma made her even worse than the hornsent, she turned his own son into just a tool and turned away from him forever. Queen marika caused wholesale genocide against 3 entire groups of people and enslaved and persecuted 3 more. And it all started with not seeing past her rage.
@@nowherenight5717 actually, to stop the cycle of violence she had to just finish every single one hornsent off since there would not be anyone to avenge the rest of them.
Excellent job as always! One of my favorite themes that Shodow of the Erdtree explores is how these cycles of abuse and atrocity tend to reinforce themselves. The Hornsent victimize the shaman, leading to Marika and her conquests, which lead to Miquella and his manipulations. Each step in the path is trying to undo or avenge what came before and yet winds up as its own atrocity. I love the storytelling in this expansion, man. I’m looking forward to your analyses!
The potentates marika uses are definitely have a different practice than the Hornsent. Their jars are used for the rebirth cycle of the erdtree, its why all the jars destiny is to be stuffed down by the roots. Alexander and all jars look for powerful warriors, because they have the most powerful rune collection.
Cool thing about Hinterlands. One flower type in there is one of the flowers types from the Abyssal Woods. The only two places this flower is seen. "A queen tinged with madness"
Oo nice catch!! Isn’t is also interesting that the painting in the Manse also looks like the Hinterlands?? I’m thinking at one point the forest was bursting with flowers.
Whoever did the voices for those ghosts was spectacular! Not as spectacular as this video, but great none the less! I had no idea about the Sword Hands of Night coming from the Gaols, what a disturbing insight.
I didnt really read the lore of the hornsent when i first went into the village, but then i found the tooth whip and was completely disturbed, fromsoft never fails to have at least one of these types of stories in their games 😭
@@alexandrajojo4755 Queen Kitetales of the Lore, first of her name. Breaker of moulds, mother of theories, Khaleesi of the great lore sea, the unmansplained!
Bonny village was creepy when I first got there, then when I discovered Marika’s home and realized the connection, I wanted to join Messmer’s army to burn that place to the ground. Marika is such a tragic character.
I think the Nox and Shaman are the same people who can down on the stone ghost ships we see in the Celurean fields. My head cannon is they literally came from space but the Shaman started growing the trees from the seeds they got from the fingers that landed nearby.
Excellent video; pointing out the brand on their forehead is fascinating, and it's absolutely something we'd be hard-pressed to notice in-game. With the fantastic close-ups you provided, I must admit that the brand looks, to me, like an overlay of the Rune of Death (Center mark with a downward curving arc at the top) and either thorns or twists of a spiral. I'll be looking for more such marks in my playthrough.
Oo it does I can see that too! That’s interesting; yeah we might have to look for more clues about what exactly that symbol is and what the significance is. I would think it had to be branded on them involuntarily at least but maybe it wasn’t?!
I noticed the brand but could never get a good look, I always believed that these "shamans" were just people ritually prepared for jars... I didn't realize what they actually were until later, and I feel like a fool for not realizing it sooner
That Lady Jane Grey connection is incredible! I knew I recognized that motif from somewhere. Thank you for reminding me where I knew it from. The blindfolds become really interesting when viewed in this light. Executioners traditionally cover the eyes of the condemned, largely for the sake of their own morale. The idea is that you won't be as disturbed by the affair if you can't see the eyes of the person you're about to snuff out. It also lends some dignity to the doomed by obscuring their expression and hiding any tears. Blindfolds and blindness in general are everywhere in Elden Ring. The Grandmother statue is blindfolded, Prophets are blindfolded for their doomsaying, the Oracle Envoys' eyes are covered by their crowns, eyeless Malenia is driven by her fidelity to Miquella, Bernahl's helm tells us about blindly following the path (interesting considering how he has taken it off at the Warmaster's Shack where he talks about his faltered faith). Marika's rune states that "The brilliance of Queen Marika blinds even the very best.", which makes the connection between faith and blindness quite explicit. This rune is identical to the one placed on Messmer's eye to quell the serpent. The irises of grace and occultation also affect vision, emphasizing grace and the graceless respectively. Perhaps this works a bit like normal light filtering, tinting your view either with grace or its opposite. Grace-tinted glasses, so to speak. If the flock is panicked, filter their vision to only see grace. If you need to instil fear in the flock, filter grace from their vision. In addition to the blindness of faith, there is also blindness as punishment. Punishment can often strengthen the resolve of the punished, however (as in the Prisoner Mask description), granting them a new faith. Shabriri was blinded as punishment for slander (perhaps he was unjustly punished for seeing something he shouldn't have). In this blindness he saw the frenzy that gave him peace. By spreading madness and suffering he could unleash a flame that would consume everything and leave the world unified once more as the One Great. The blind maidens Hyetta and Irina were blind to suffering. Irina was blind to the pain of the misbegotten, and Hyetta was blind to the sacrifice made by those who gave her eyes to eat. When their apparently contiguous fates culminate in reaching the three fingers, Hyetta finally sees the suffering and urges you to burn the world for the sufferers' sake. This motif of suffering brings us back to the hornsent's gaols. This extreme torture produces both the Lamenters and the Living Jars. I believe you are mistaken when it comes to the nature of the lamenters. The Lamenters appear to be Hornsent to me, not masked Shamans. I think they were torturers who reached an epiphany through exposure to the Shamans' torture. Their horns have grown wild, which would indicate divinity in the Hornsents' worldview. Despite this sign, the Lamenters were repressed by those who "viewed true bliss with deep fear". Their divine horns had grown so much that they poked into their eyes, leaving the Lamenters blind. But as the Lamenting Visage's description states: "To those who seek happiness, blindness is bliss." The Visage produces the pale yellow light of madness, indicating that these torturers went mad in their duties, Heart of Darkness-style. The Hornsent forbade the use of the flame of frenzy (Surging Frenzied Flame description), and avoided the Abyss (Abyss Map description). This was apparently because the flame burned away spirit, which is significant in their religion (Revered Spirit Ash description). The greater potentates were apparently unaffected by this madness thanks to their Caterpillar Masks, which strengthened their resolve through blindness. To me this communicates that torture and punishment produces frenzied madness in both torturer and tortured. This type of mad, frenzied fervor is the meaning of the "Od" part of Odin, the One-Eyed. In his fervent desire for knowledge he hanged himself from Yggdrasil to acquire knowledge of runes and seiðr. Yggdrasil literally means "that which drags Yggr", where dragging is a horse-based euphemism for hanging and Yggr is another name for Oðinn meaning "the fearsome one". As seiðr was considered feminine, this sacrifice is a somewhat androgynous act, which is an interesting link to Marika/Radagon (in addition to the obvious world-tree-hanging thing). Could this mean that Marika was also touched by this madness, which became the Golden Order when channeled through the Greater Will's guidance? Highly speculative, but I believe there's something to it. Perhaps we can find out more by connecting this to the stories of Midra, Nanaya and possibly Metyr. There are many other points that relate to this, but I'm unable to connect them properly: The recurrent motif of eyes is obviously related to this, i.e. Melina/Ranni/Gloam-Eyed Queen. There's also the strange fact of Miquella's crosses specifying that he left behind his left (sinistral) and right (dextrous) arms, but only one eye. Was Miquella originally one-eyed? Did he keep one eye? Which one (keeping in mind that left=passion, right=logic in traditional left-right symbolism)? St. Trina's eyes are closed, and the Lulling Branch description seems to tie this to a waning will relenting to eternal slumber. Could this be a symbol of suicide or euthanasia? Was Messmer's serpent (Shaun of Light :D) a source of blasphemy like Rykard's, leading Marika to cloud his vision with grace? Why didn't the Living Jars themselves go mad (like Shabriri)? Was the Grandmother's faith strong enough to withstand the suffering that drove even the torturers mad? There's also Haima and Hierodas' glintstone crowns, which are both blindfolded. Hierodas's blindness may be related to leaving the academy and pursuing studies out there in the great unknown, but I'm really reaching here. Haima's isn't too much of a riddle, he administers justice with his gavel and cannon, and as we all know justice is blind. This blindness may tie into Marika's bellum iustium against the Hornsent, but then again this application of justice is anything but the cool, blind and pathos-free justice of the ideal justiciar. The fact that the Erdtree's boons come in the form of tears also seems to tie the Golden Order to some sorrowful origin (and eyes). We should of course also mention the blind swordsman, though I fail to connect his blindness to anything mentioned here (a blind man staving off rot, another "blind faith" motif perhaps). As ever, there are more questions than answers, and my unhinged ramblings have gone on for long enough. Thanks for the great video, I can't wait to see the next one!
I really should refrain from writing more, but an idea just occurred to me: Were the Hornsent really going down the path towards divine resolution through suffering (a la Grapes-of-Wrath Christ-in-the-Winepress symbolism)? Was everything spoiled when they pulled the plug on the operation and returned to their ashy idols? If so, is the Greater Will a kind of Antichrist, denying the true and just resolution of the frenzied flame that would negate it and return the world to the One Great? I'm a Goldmask believer through and through, but these blasphemous thoughts have got me shook.
Wow I am loving this theme of blindness; I might have to look into this as a dedicated video!! In which you are absolutely going to have to be featured there because this write up is beautiful. And oh just to clear it up I don’t think the Lamenters are Shaman!! I think they were Hornsent executioners like you said, I just think they utilized psychological torture in the Lamenter’s Gaol while wearing those masks while they did it. Totally in agreement with you!!
@@kitetales I'd be honored to see these ideas refined and presented in one of your well-produced videos :) Oh, and I totally misunderstood the part about the Lamenters! Sorry about that, upon rewatching I have no idea how I ended up thinking you were saying that they were prisoners.
oh man, my mom walked in during a close up of the lamenting jar people, and she was like" what is that, it's ugly as sh**" poor shamans never catch a break
What’s honestly interesting is that, in the original Japanese version, ‘Shaman’ actually means ‘Shrine Maiden.’ Marika’s village was most likely an all-women, or at least matriarchal society of shrine maiden women.
The worst part is that from what we know of how the Erdtree works, these shamans may be like this forever. Even if we kill them possibly, the Erdtree may bring them back as they died. May. That idea harshens my mood such that I searched elsewhere. And remembered that in the basement floor of the Shadow Keep, there were jar people. And some corpses of them on what looked to be medical beds. My initial assumption was, as members of the Golden Order, and Messmers rank, it was possible he was attempting to restore them or help them. After all they are the reason the war happened. But noting how currently, it was lacking any of Messmers men, with corpses and their item drops, one behind an illusory wall, and it’s in the basement. I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t help. It was study and experimentation. Just as the floor above it contained literature and specimens of the crucible, the jar people were another hornsent created oddity never before seen and thus subject to study. And it’s chaotic and abandoned state is due to negligence and rebellion by the jar people. So maybe help is possible. Considering Messmer didn’t try. And who knows. Maybe being in a jar, they’ve been unable to die till our character comes along and frees them from that frame. In a million years the Erdtree will bring em back as they were before. Although really I kinda doubt it. Unless you do Fia’s ending and bring death back to the world I suppose😅
Why yes I agree with this I do believe it's possible that Messmer was trying to cure them but he couldn't knowing that they we're Marikas friends and family and he seeked his mother's validation above all else he probably tried at least
@@jordancantrell.. id imagine that’s probably where it started yea. Well intended. But then was forgotten as war proceeded. Afterall, what would gain him the greatest validation if not that.
There are two conclusions I can draw from this: * Those who commit atrocities often have reasons we could empathize with. We assume lack of humanity when they can't tell their side of the story, like Marika in the base game. * Justified or not, atrocities are still terrible. We should be careful with justice. It can easily blind one, and turn into a monster.
To begin with I was sympathetic to the Hornsent as victims of Marika's brutal crusade. Now I'm like 'eff the bloody lot of you, I ain't on anybody's side!'
Amazing video, I wanna know more about the shamans and their connection to ancestral followers. Specifically where the ancestral followers stand in the war of numen vs hornsent or if they just stay out of it. I've been interested in the vague bits of their culture, and I have been bringing up the possability that the stone tablets with pictures near them are not read top to bottom like a person would normally read, but bottom to top in a similar way that they the ancestrals follwers, end up looking from bottom to top for most things around them. like looking up to giant built structures and statues, looking up to the stars, and looking up to perhaps their ruler. Jack bringing up spaceships in his video is awesome to me, because i think those tablets describes an ascending process with those ships at the top being similar to the ships in the cerulean coast, but specifically the rift. Idk if they always ended up there, but they seem to be unfortunately becoming dregs of themselves in a place more like a sewer. I think there is a good reason the putrecent knight looks like a horse person, it's like the ancestral follower culture seeped down there. But did what I want to know is, did Marika curse them, or are they experiencing something similar to the shaman at the hands of the nox? or perhaps something else? Anyways, I'm bout to check out a recomended video from one of my other favorite lore enthusiasts!
Great plot twist. Marika has her share of foul deeds. But her origins paint her in a very different light. Up to the point where Messmer seems like an OK guy for burning the hornsent to the ground
Could the jar ritual be tied to the formless mother? It’s tenuous and I don’t have a full grasp yet, but I mean the blindfold, using sinners - makes me think of the bloody thorns and the blood Star even tho they don’t use thorns. My understanding of the whip is they horribly wound someone and hope they blend with other life - the formless mother requires a wound, and who else wounds themselves to blend with other life? Godrick who has the “curse of grafting”. Im fully tinfoil hat over here and need to do a lot more investigation of grafting, the omen, the blood fiends, the albinaurics etc - but AFAIK we don’t see a successful “Saint” in the dlc - what if they Saints they were trying to make are the omen? What if that’s why grafting is so reviled? What if being whipped into the jar was an offering to the formless mother? What if Marika despises the Omen because they’re a harsh, harsh reminded of the horrors the Hornsent visited upon her people? The blood fiend arm says it was “SANCTIFIED BY A BLOODY RITUAL” - what if they are Saints?
That is such a good connection, especially the idea about offering a wound as tribute before receiving the “blessing” of sainthood. The Hornsent Grandam has dialogue in which she puts a “curse of the omen” upon Marika but it made me wonder that maybe the omen, only half hornsent (?) are seen as impure by all because of their mixed heritage. Thanks so much for the good write up, I’m putting that into my lore catalogue too!
@@Visigoth_ I meant the shape of her rune! Her little bent T pose; if you isolate all those shapes separately you can see just the modified T! But maybe I just have special eyes 😆
I have a different theory. The jarring is only part of the process. Ultimately the gate of divinity is where these living saints were used. And it was Marika who ordered it and that is why her rune is on the living saints' foreheads. Marika also betrayed the hornsent, you can see their bodies surrounding the gate of divinity as if anticipating the birth of their new god only to be killed by her. The golden braid was her confession. Messmer is in the land of shadows to burn all traces of the original sin, the sacrifice of the shamans, and to seal and guard the gate of divinity.
Yo, what if the Shamans were to other living beings what gold is to other materials? When the shamans were ground up into jars and mixed with other living organisms, this could be like alloying gold with other metals to produce elements that LOOK like gold but which do not share the same properties as gold (such as never rusting or _tarnishing)._
Something has kind of bothered me about the butterflies in game. Butterflies are the adult form of a caterpillar but there have not been any caterpillars in the game until the Potentates of Bonny Village. I'm not sure if there is a link but I wonder what the caterpillar mask's caterpillars are for/from.
Something I don't get with the Lamenters... if you actually read the item you get from the boss, it says that even the hornsent seemed disturbed by stuff related to whatever is going on with the Lamenters.
The hornsent tried to take life and death into their own hands and failed, Marika also tried to take life and death into her own hands and eventually fails, I guess it’s foreshadowing 😢
weird question: the voice effect used over Jack is a mimics voice whenever hes voicing the spirits, the sorta ghostly echo-y effect. ive seen it used in a bunch of places but always wondered what exactly its called or how its achieved. if anyone could answer id appreciate it. thanks!
What I find so interesting is that no one is calling things "Shaman" in The Lands Between. Given that the Numen (already a pun with "New Men") is the race of people Marika is of... And given that the Hornsent viewed the Shaman as viable Saints due to their irregular and unique flesh... I wonder if "Shaman" is the Hornsent name/word for "Numen".
I was wondering myself if that rune on the shaman women foreheads was "their" rune from the start or if it was one assigned to them by the hornsent. Considering how important that symbol would go on to be in the lands between, I find its origin very interesting
I wonder if the Hornsent potentates who inflicted the most pain towards Marika's people weren't given a long and torturous death like their brethren, but instead punished in another cruel way. At Altus Plateau there are these Wormface creatures which wander and cry in the foggy woods. I always asked myself what those creature's origins were, and I thought they were the consequences of Godwyn's death though this doesn't explain much. After seeing the Caterpillar mask and the cruelty that the Hornsent inflicted on the Shamans - maybe Marika cursed the potentates to turn into these grotesque creatures, disfigure their faces into a literal bouquet of worms due to their masks and settled them just far enough to Leyndell. Because what is more humiliating than morphing into a hideous creature which is eternally condemned to wander around, constantly reminded of the bloodshed and helplessness by living in the vincinity of their greatest enemy's city whose golden aura seems to mock them daily and nightly?
@@kitetales Do statues have "real hair and real clothes?" Because all of the other statues have "sculpted hair and sculpted clothes," but the figure in the Shaman Village has what looks like "real hair," and the figure in Bonny Village looks the same (but missing its head, but it does have very obvious "real clothes" instead of sculpted clothes.). - Here is my reasoning: The two figures both have "real clothes," and the one in shaman village has "real hair" (their clothes and hair aren't the same color or material as their bodies: like all of the other statues). Just look at the Wandering Nobles in the base game (they aren't statues either.). - Sokushinbutsu (即身仏)
The one thing I didn't like about Marika's origins, specifically the things her people went through, is that it seems too one sided with the hornsent as the clear bad guys and the shamans as the clear victims. It gives Marika some sense of justification for what she did. Personally I would have made it so that the role of the shamans in the whole jar thing was voluntary, a part of their culture they shared with the hornsent, specifically the belief that the process will lead to some form of accession or a way to finally pass away since death would be difficult in a land that is heavily influenced by the crucible. Maybe have the jars fed to a giant albino snake in the hopes that it would make the people in the jars be reborn since snakes are a symbol of rebirth, this can also be used to explain the hatred and antagonistic mentality against snakes in the Lands Between. Another way is that the jar process was part of the ritual that created the gate of divinity. Part of the culture of the hornsent is that they believe that the spiral symbolizes some form of ascension from the wild crucible energies to refined godhood, at least that's what I remember from one of the hornsent incantations. Edit, July 4: Ok, so I just learned that in the Shaman Village there's the shedded skin of a big albino serpent, similar to the one found in the god skin noble arena in Volcano Manor, that may lend some credence to my theory slash fan made story. I swear I didn't know about this before today.
I felt the same way; I’ve been unsure if the Hornsent were original or added to explain why she hates the Omen and Misbegotten so much. Felt like an easy way out of what I’ve always thought was an analogy to the atrocities committed in the name of religion. Now… it’s just revenge? Seems to really have simplified it.
Nah it works far better if the Shaman were just the victims. It illustrates the most important lesson in both forgiveness and moving on: Hurt people hurt people. Monsters are created, not born and Marika was created by the evils of her homeland thus creating an even bigger monster.
The Grandmother statue is blindfolded like the Living Jars, which could indicate that the jarring process was part of their culture as well. Maybe the Hornsent stopped the rituals once they saw the Lamenters' madness, which risked burning their sacred spirits (see Lamenter's Mask, Surging Frenzied Flame and Revered Spirit Ash descriptions alongside the yellow "madness"-light from the Lamenter's Visage). The realization that all of that suffering had been for nothing started the disillusioned shaman Marika down the mad path of vengeance that cursed her with godhood. Or maybe the Hornsent were just really bad dudes, idk.
Ok, so I just learn that in the Shaman Village there's the shedded skin of an albino serpent, similar to the one found in the god skin noble arena in Volcano Manor, that may lend some credence to my theory slash fan made story. I swear I didn't know about this before today.
the jar monsters reminds me of resident evil product of similar experimentation humans are awful, doing horrible things for the sake of belief (hornsent), revenge (marika), science and money (umbrella)
Personally i find hard to believe that the rune on the head of the jar sacrifices is marikas, it wouldn't make much sense... On the contrary i see the rune of death in the seal (giving us a link to the godskins, especially considering that the Bonny ritual is similar in nature ot that from Dominula), over another rune or two, resembling a Y and a )(. Did we find any other possible runelike simbols or seals that are linked to the hornsent? Perhaps in the incantations schools exclusive to the shadowlands there might be some clue...
7:03 i dont think its a sculpture at all its her body, same as what miquella did with the haligtree, we know they can mix flesh with things, snakes, other tarnished, trees in miquellas case, maybe that's why they are eternal, they like forever chemicals lol
Framing the kind of violence that creates someone who will commit genocide without defending or siding with a serial genocider is a hard line to walk, I think the game does it much better than a lot of the people making videos about it, because the game is pretty explicit that these cycles of violence only continue when violence is the answer. Marika committed genocide multiple times on her path to what she considered retribution and it is disturbing so many people have been like yeah I totally get it I would do that too, especially when the game is saying that revenge won't fix your trauma. The action of making people into jars continued under her rule and that's not talked about enough.. thanks for not excusing her actions while talking about the injustices here
To my understanding people in the lands between were only put into jars after they were already dead, not like the shamans who were kidnapped and wipped.
Would they really make so many jars just to accomplish nothing? I wonder if maybe they were trying to do something with the jars and would have succeeded if Marika and Messmer hadn't stopped them.
@@tonylawson2222 Does anyone understand what exactly that means? Were they trying to make vessels for spirits to possess, like a more permanent version of the lion boss?
I choose to belive that most Hornsent weren't really involved... cause I love the Hornsent culture and when I figured out what happened to the Shamans I was genuinely disappointed in them lol
I do think most of them did not know what was going on or at least the extent of it… a statement on “ignorance is bliss” for sure. Lots of religious parallels with them!
I like hearing the weird lore of fromsoft games. Its unlike any other games, even when other games try to imitate fromsoft. They were a perfect match with george rr martin. I also used to spent hours reading the lore of westeros. Yknow, back when he wrote books.
I don't blame him. Writing for current projects is hard cause you gotta keep the themes and characters going. New projects let the creative juices flow since you have no restrictions.
Marika didn't go on a violent path towards retribution. She enacted a genocide. That genocide is all over the DLC landscape, from destroyed settlements to mass graves.
@@bored8321retribution in the means of retaliation in this sense. Which would make total sense, genocide as a means of retaliation. Marika became very powerful and when your basically a god and as the gold mask found, still feeble as man, you do stuff like that.
I feel like they aren't mutually exclusive. See the ongoing genocide in Palestine. The Zionists view it as retribution for the violence on Oct 8th, and while it undoubtedly is based in those emotions it doesn't make it any less of a genocide.
I have a theory about the Hornsent. Based on Hornsent's last words when you kill him in Leda's bossfight, we can assume that the Hornsent society was based on clans. The Hornsent's -npc- clan was in Bonny village where the jar cult began. The Belurat clan was different. There the cult was built around the divine beasts and birds. The cult of the jars was based on sacrificing people, even hornsent. But that doesn't match with the cult described in the descriptions of horned warriors and curseblades. The tutelary deities, and the sculpted keepers (the horned warriors' ultimate purpose) are beings raised by acetic and self-sacrifice life. So, my theory is that the Bonny village clan imposed its cult on the people from Belurat, creating the gaols and starting the Jar tradition. I assume that, based on what we can see inside the Bonny village gaol, the hornsent imprisoned Curseblades, who were important figures dedicated to protecting the tower. And, after Messmer's crusade, we can assume that the Curseblades we see managed to escape, and returned to the tower along with the remaining horned warriors
I have a question and possibly a theory. What about Godrick the Grafted and his practises of grafting? I've been watching a couple of your videos, and mostly the ones about the Hornsent's Jar practises give me similar vibes to what Godrick was practising as well. Do you think it's worth exploring?
In reference to my further comment, do you guys know who the head of the pantheon of the Canaanite religion was?... Ba'al... Every reference to the devil with a ba in front of it, references this character
![Nobody Gets The Worm Guys | Elden Ring Lore [REUPLOAD]](/img/n.gif)
Pre DLC: Marika went too far.
Post DLC: Marika didn't go far enough.
Pre Bonny and Shaman Villages: How could such atrocities be committed on these people?
Post Bonny and Shaman Villages: Total Hornsent death. Unlimited jihad against the Hornsent forever.
@@TheAnomaly00 There was a commenter on another video who said that they defeated Messmer not because he was commiting genocide against the Hornsent but to replace him because Messmer wasn't getting the job done quickly enough.
@@ravendelacour1917And you start the game, thinking poor Hornsent, evil Marika, evil Messmer, they burned them alive. Then you learn all of this horror, and you feel bad for clapping Messmer 😂
Locking behind for aeons your firstborn in a most dark place without a smartphone is not enough? ;)
@@normanbates7373 Well there are still living Hornsent, so Messmer hasn't gotten the job done yet. Mom isn't letting him come home until he gets his chores done.
This really does answer the riddle of the Chanting Winged Dame:
"Alas, that land, once blessed, now has diminished.
We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished.
We have lamented and we have shed tears.
But no one consoles us.
Golden one, at whom were you angry?"
There's a theory that since eyes are related to power many times in the game, that blindfolding the Shaman was another form of stripping them of power and agency.
Ohhhh yes! Totally makes sense and I am on board with that!
meeting the people in the jars is probably the most disturbing moment for me in the DLC. i was not expecting that at all! i look forward to more of your DLC videos!!!!
Thank you so much Doomsday!! Yeah the jumping out behind corners gimmick never got old for them and I am sorry to say that I fell for it every time 🤣
So that’s why she hated the Hornsent and why the Omens were so shunned. They were a painful reminder of her past that she tried to bury by hiding the Omen under the City, in the sewers where she thinks they belong
Crazy her two sons were omen
A cycle of pain
And you realize that even tho she was in the wrong for doing so, and that she could have went past it with effort for her sons, she was also very lenient compared to the hornsent
@@KD-wc4rsshe cared for morgott
@@titanus261does she stuff people to jars? At least marika gave grace to morgott
I guess its safe to assume Godrick was able to graft thanks to him being related to the Shaman? Great video!
It would make sense for the practice of grafting being seen as vile and forbidden in the lands between if it originated from the practices of the hornsent, true
Everyone is a shaman descendant in the lands between
@@Eizengoldt Not true. All badlands inhabitants at least were not Shaman in origin. Also we don not know the exact relationship between the Shamans and the Numen. But it is more than likely that at least the Nox and the Carians were not related to the Numen.
@MaledictGaming So 'Shaman' is actually a slight mistranslation of 'Miko' which means 'shrine-maiden' in Japanese. The Shaman _are_ Numen. Shaman Village is likely just a Numen colony.
@@TheAnomaly00 Yea, I figured this would have been the case. Glad to have the hunch confirmed.
I wonder if that specific Hornsent who said these cruel words to the shamans lived long enough to be subject to similar cruelties by Messmer’s crusaders when they invaded.
I don’t know how long Hornsent lived but assuming he lived to see the crusade take place, I can only imagine it shifting from him whipping shamans with tooth whips and shoving them in jars like it's an ordinary day to him being captured by the crusaders before enduring days of being beaten and branded by serpent flails while being yelled at with slurs and obscenities by them such as being “Graceless scum” who’s only purpose is to be hunted, dehorned, impaled and burned before being forced to march alongside fellow Hornsent who’ve been rounded up, beaten, branded and dehorned to a furnace golem that has yet to come to life.
As the Hornsent are being pushed and crammed inside the golem to the point where’s it’s getting hard to breathe, they are given a speech by a Black Knight captain who says that though they are graceless vermin with no place in the order, their lives will at least serve one purpose: as kindling for their holy crusade.
The Hornsent suddenly reminisces on those shamans back in Bonny Village and realizes that he has become a victim to the same cruelties he inflicted on them.
However, he has no time to think of his current predicament as the crusaders set the golem aflame and the screams of countless Hornsent and the stench of their burning flesh fill the air as the golem comes to life.
So ends the life of one Hornsent among hundreds, now used to fuel a lifeless machine of death and murder as it marches onto the battlefield. And so, the crusade continues.
Extremely well-written. The line about the Black Knight captain telling them their place is in the furnace is chilling. Absolutely love this visualization of the story, thank you for sharing your beautifully written words!
@@kitetales Thanks! While everyone is understandably focused on the disturbing revelations about the Jars and Marika's past, I've yet to see people discuss Messmer's Crusade of the Land of Shadow at length with all the different forms of cruelty inflicted by the crusaders on the Hornsent such as the Serpent Flails, itself a direct contrast to the Tooth Whip, or the fascinating and unsettling design of the Furnace Golems.
this is exactly the kind of stuff i see and hear in my head when im running around elden ring. when i was in the store room i saw that one human looking giant specimen, strung up the same way marika was crucified. the same way tarnished are crucified. i couldnt figure it out , but all i could see were flashes of that same pose flooding my mind. i wonder what the significance is of being strung up like that, because even her statues depict this pose. but obviously its not a dignified pose, its one of almost acceptance of no control. going limp in the arms of a cosmic being too powerful to fight against so your head just hangs in defeat
The Greater Will is a cosmic karmic entity that allows certain fated indivuduals to ascend to godhood and enact their vision of order, not unlike in Berserk. Ascending into godhood Marika creates a golden age with no destined death, and where the bodies and spirits of her subjects are recycled into the order itself, through Erdtree burial, and never truly anihilated. We can meet happy and joyful jars in this world, seeking kind potentates with soft hands. It's literally the jar heaven tortured shamen prayed for, brought about by Marika the godess as a sublimation of her trauma.
The way the description of the Hornsent's experience became much more vivid once he became the victim and not the perpetrator, showing both the atrocities of Messmer's crusade AND of the hornsent, to show that it went from one who benefits from suffering to one that is used for it... this comment lives in my mind every day because of how well you wrote out that parallel and if I could I would write you down in my sources for my English homework over parallels I would.
My theoryu about Marika is that she wasn't the last survivor, she was actually the first and only successful Saint the Hornsent created, which meant they were killed by the god they created
I LOVE this theory so much!! I’m working on a video about Marika and I am 100% putting your theory in there! Thank you!!
This would be so tragic.
I wouldn't know how to think of Marika and her children any longer if they were all descended from fermented meat piles. 😢
Sadly that doesn't really make sense, though, since her golden braid being left behind for the village grandmother likely would've happened while the village was still around.
That would still make her the only survivor and it doesn't really take away from the pain and suffering that was caused.
That wouldn’t make much sense as she would potentially encourage the ritual then because it worked
I love that you have added audible voices for the ghost. Fantastic touch.
Thank you for that feedback! He did such a good job with them!
I saw the Greater Potentate and thought, "Man, Homer Simpson must be really falling on hard times..."
Yeah why’d they make him so doughy?! 🤣
with the statue and the tree being at bonny village, it makes sense that it was a shaman village as well before being desecrated
People like to complain about the DLC not having any info on the Gloam Eyed Queen but we've got flesh-flaying rituals, special knights with fingerprint association, and connection to the Crucible. It feels like there's so much in the DLC to provide for the rise of both Marika and the Gloam Eyed Queen as Empyreans.
the jars lore is one of the most disturbing things ever, like wow, the way in wich they make me recoil from just the thought of the process.
and ohgod when I found that minor Erdtree Incantation I was SO close to tears like damn, this game has always been sad, but somehow it gets MORE AND MORE SAD the more you learn 😭. I love it.
And when the music changes at Shaman Village ☹️ Such a sad revelation…
@@kitetales ufff yeah the music change... chills
While your video was the most detailed, there’s few things you can add
1) it seems merika was not spared this brutality as well, proof is in the trailer when she reaches for the golden hairs, you can see the tooth marks from the whip in her hand
2) it seems Marika rise to saint hood through jar ritual did work, and that might be one explanation how Marika and radagon are one, in short, they were jar buddies
3) some of those melted shamans from close up look quiet similar to radagon
4) Marikas betrayal could be that she rose to sainthood from the jar and therefore was spared and sort of accepted by the hornset and then later she turned on them. Because there is no way they would have spared her and allowed her to live unless she either banged their leader or she became a saint
Ohhh that is such a good theory!! Her and Radagon being in the pot together, yes!! I love that. I missed the whip marks on her hands as well what a great observation!!
@@kitetales Another thing is that people may try to disprove the radagon and merika theory by brining up miquella and st Trina. But now that the dlc is out, they look nothing alike and st Trinas birth seems to be like Millicent, in the sense that her (millicent) birth came most likely when malenia blossomed, so her birth is like that of a bud. For st Trina, if you see bonfireVN latest video on st Trina, her body is half plant and half human. So miquella, while shedding his body parts, might have given rise through st Trina from his blood, body parts falling and then growing into st Trina. but Marika and radagon are 2 whole human beings and there like are not seen anywhere in the base game or dlc.
Jar buddies 😭😭😭
No way you said marika and radagon are the same because they got stuffed in the same jar 💀ending cutscene to the game proves that false
After finding Bonny village and Shaman village, I no longer want to kill Mesmer for his atrocities against the Hornsent, but to replace him and finish the job he was slacking on.
Agreed. Messmer's only sin is that he didn't make their deaths slow or agonizing enough.
@@TheAnomaly00cycle of violence my friend.
The cruelty marika may be justified to some point but never to wipe them all out.
Revenge against the ones who dealt the suffering, of course, but not against the whole race indiscriminately, the elderly, the young, the weak and the ones who opposes that as well.
Following that cruelty is what left her family in shambles, her treatment to anything resembling the crucible, her burying a whole clan below leyndell and her own sons too.
Her trauma made her even worse than the hornsent, she turned his own son into just a tool and turned away from him forever.
Queen marika caused wholesale genocide against 3 entire groups of people and enslaved and persecuted 3 more.
And it all started with not seeing past her rage.
@@nowherenight5717Oh ,100%. I was just going along with the meme, my guy.
@@nowherenight5717 actually, to stop the cycle of violence she had to just finish every single one hornsent off since there would not be anyone to avenge the rest of them.
Excellent job as always! One of my favorite themes that Shodow of the Erdtree explores is how these cycles of abuse and atrocity tend to reinforce themselves. The Hornsent victimize the shaman, leading to Marika and her conquests, which lead to Miquella and his manipulations. Each step in the path is trying to undo or avenge what came before and yet winds up as its own atrocity.
I love the storytelling in this expansion, man. I’m looking forward to your analyses!
The potentates marika uses are definitely have a different practice than the Hornsent.
Their jars are used for the rebirth cycle of the erdtree, its why all the jars destiny is to be stuffed down by the roots. Alexander and all jars look for powerful warriors, because they have the most powerful rune collection.
I feel like we keep ignoring a big question in From games.
Who the hell puts ladders in all these wells?
Same people who keep the torches and candles lit. There's likely a whole union.
Cool thing about Hinterlands. One flower type in there is one of the flowers types from the Abyssal Woods. The only two places this flower is seen. "A queen tinged with madness"
Oo nice catch!! Isn’t is also interesting that the painting in the Manse also looks like the Hinterlands?? I’m thinking at one point the forest was bursting with flowers.
@@kitetales oh wow i didnt notice that! Im gonna stop and smell the roses a bit more (so to speak) on this second playthrough. 😀
The Lamenter is such a creepy character, I remember I was so unsettled first time my character just knelt down, began weeping and would not stop again
Whoever did the voices for those ghosts was spectacular! Not as spectacular as this video, but great none the less! I had no idea about the Sword Hands of Night coming from the Gaols, what a disturbing insight.
I think you gotta be my main ghost guy now, the bar has been set too high!
one of the better elden ring lore videos. I like your brevity. Thumbs up!
Thanks so much!!
I didnt really read the lore of the hornsent when i first went into the village, but then i found the tooth whip and was completely disturbed, fromsoft never fails to have at least one of these types of stories in their games 😭
Our Queen has come to serve us lore!!! I’m here for it!!!!💜💜💜💜💜
Thank you my angel!! 👼💜 What we need now is a return of the Lore Maidens!! 💜💜
KiteTales queen of lore first of her name
@@alexandrajojo4755 Queen Kitetales of the Lore, first of her name. Breaker of moulds, mother of theories, Khaleesi of the great lore sea, the unmansplained!
Bonny village was creepy when I first got there, then when I discovered Marika’s home and realized the connection, I wanted to join Messmer’s army to burn that place to the ground. Marika is such a tragic character.
I think the Nox and Shaman are the same people who can down on the stone ghost ships we see in the Celurean fields. My head cannon is they literally came from space but the Shaman started growing the trees from the seeds they got from the fingers that landed nearby.
Yeah these places were definitely a bit jarring to come across 🌝
OH YOU! 🌝
Me listening to this in the background when suddenly a wild jack appears
He’s gonna need to be my official ghost guy after this!
Excellent video; pointing out the brand on their forehead is fascinating, and it's absolutely something we'd be hard-pressed to notice in-game.
With the fantastic close-ups you provided, I must admit that the brand looks, to me, like an overlay of the Rune of Death (Center mark with a downward curving arc at the top) and either thorns or twists of a spiral. I'll be looking for more such marks in my playthrough.
Oo it does I can see that too! That’s interesting; yeah we might have to look for more clues about what exactly that symbol is and what the significance is. I would think it had to be branded on them involuntarily at least but maybe it wasn’t?!
I noticed the brand but could never get a good look, I always believed that these "shamans" were just people ritually prepared for jars... I didn't realize what they actually were until later, and I feel like a fool for not realizing it sooner
Great video! I didn’t even realize a lot of these things were connected!
Thank you!! ❤️
That Lady Jane Grey connection is incredible!
I knew I recognized that motif from somewhere. Thank you for reminding me where I knew it from.
The blindfolds become really interesting when viewed in this light. Executioners traditionally cover the eyes of the condemned, largely for the sake of their own morale.
The idea is that you won't be as disturbed by the affair if you can't see the eyes of the person you're about to snuff out. It also lends some dignity to the doomed by obscuring their expression and hiding any tears.
Blindfolds and blindness in general are everywhere in Elden Ring. The Grandmother statue is blindfolded, Prophets are blindfolded for their doomsaying, the Oracle Envoys' eyes are covered by their crowns, eyeless Malenia is driven by her fidelity to Miquella, Bernahl's helm tells us about blindly following the path (interesting considering how he has taken it off at the Warmaster's Shack where he talks about his faltered faith). Marika's rune states that "The brilliance of Queen Marika blinds even the very best.", which makes the connection between faith and blindness quite explicit. This rune is identical to the one placed on Messmer's eye to quell the serpent. The irises of grace and occultation also affect vision, emphasizing grace and the graceless respectively. Perhaps this works a bit like normal light filtering, tinting your view either with grace or its opposite. Grace-tinted glasses, so to speak. If the flock is panicked, filter their vision to only see grace. If you need to instil fear in the flock, filter grace from their vision.
In addition to the blindness of faith, there is also blindness as punishment. Punishment can often strengthen the resolve of the punished, however (as in the Prisoner Mask description), granting them a new faith. Shabriri was blinded as punishment for slander (perhaps he was unjustly punished for seeing something he shouldn't have). In this blindness he saw the frenzy that gave him peace. By spreading madness and suffering he could unleash a flame that would consume everything and leave the world unified once more as the One Great.
The blind maidens Hyetta and Irina were blind to suffering. Irina was blind to the pain of the misbegotten, and Hyetta was blind to the sacrifice made by those who gave her eyes to eat. When their apparently contiguous fates culminate in reaching the three fingers, Hyetta finally sees the suffering and urges you to burn the world for the sufferers' sake.
This motif of suffering brings us back to the hornsent's gaols. This extreme torture produces both the Lamenters and the Living Jars. I believe you are mistaken when it comes to the nature of the lamenters. The Lamenters appear to be Hornsent to me, not masked Shamans. I think they were torturers who reached an epiphany through exposure to the Shamans' torture. Their horns have grown wild, which would indicate divinity in the Hornsents' worldview. Despite this sign, the Lamenters were repressed by those who "viewed true bliss with deep fear". Their divine horns had grown so much that they poked into their eyes, leaving the Lamenters blind. But as the Lamenting Visage's description states: "To those who seek happiness, blindness is bliss." The Visage produces the pale yellow light of madness, indicating that these torturers went mad in their duties, Heart of Darkness-style. The Hornsent forbade the use of the flame of frenzy (Surging Frenzied Flame description), and avoided the Abyss (Abyss Map description). This was apparently because the flame burned away spirit, which is significant in their religion (Revered Spirit Ash description). The greater potentates were apparently unaffected by this madness thanks to their Caterpillar Masks, which strengthened their resolve through blindness.
To me this communicates that torture and punishment produces frenzied madness in both torturer and tortured. This type of mad, frenzied fervor is the meaning of the "Od" part of Odin, the One-Eyed. In his fervent desire for knowledge he hanged himself from Yggdrasil to acquire knowledge of runes and seiðr. Yggdrasil literally means "that which drags Yggr", where dragging is a horse-based euphemism for hanging and Yggr is another name for Oðinn meaning "the fearsome one". As seiðr was considered feminine, this sacrifice is a somewhat androgynous act, which is an interesting link to Marika/Radagon (in addition to the obvious world-tree-hanging thing). Could this mean that Marika was also touched by this madness, which became the Golden Order when channeled through the Greater Will's guidance? Highly speculative, but I believe there's something to it. Perhaps we can find out more by connecting this to the stories of Midra, Nanaya and possibly Metyr.
There are many other points that relate to this, but I'm unable to connect them properly:
The recurrent motif of eyes is obviously related to this, i.e. Melina/Ranni/Gloam-Eyed Queen. There's also the strange fact of Miquella's crosses specifying that he left behind his left (sinistral) and right (dextrous) arms, but only one eye. Was Miquella originally one-eyed? Did he keep one eye? Which one (keeping in mind that left=passion, right=logic in traditional left-right symbolism)?
St. Trina's eyes are closed, and the Lulling Branch description seems to tie this to a waning will relenting to eternal slumber. Could this be a symbol of suicide or euthanasia?
Was Messmer's serpent (Shaun of Light :D) a source of blasphemy like Rykard's, leading Marika to cloud his vision with grace?
Why didn't the Living Jars themselves go mad (like Shabriri)? Was the Grandmother's faith strong enough to withstand the suffering that drove even the torturers mad?
There's also Haima and Hierodas' glintstone crowns, which are both blindfolded. Hierodas's blindness may be related to leaving the academy and pursuing studies out there in the great unknown, but I'm really reaching here. Haima's isn't too much of a riddle, he administers justice with his gavel and cannon, and as we all know justice is blind. This blindness may tie into Marika's bellum iustium against the Hornsent, but then again this application of justice is anything but the cool, blind and pathos-free justice of the ideal justiciar.
The fact that the Erdtree's boons come in the form of tears also seems to tie the Golden Order to some sorrowful origin (and eyes).
We should of course also mention the blind swordsman, though I fail to connect his blindness to anything mentioned here (a blind man staving off rot, another "blind faith" motif perhaps).
As ever, there are more questions than answers, and my unhinged ramblings have gone on for long enough.
Thanks for the great video, I can't wait to see the next one!
I really should refrain from writing more, but an idea just occurred to me:
Were the Hornsent really going down the path towards divine resolution through suffering (a la Grapes-of-Wrath Christ-in-the-Winepress symbolism)?
Was everything spoiled when they pulled the plug on the operation and returned to their ashy idols?
If so, is the Greater Will a kind of Antichrist, denying the true and just resolution of the frenzied flame that would negate it and return the world to the One Great?
I'm a Goldmask believer through and through, but these blasphemous thoughts have got me shook.
Wow I am loving this theme of blindness; I might have to look into this as a dedicated video!! In which you are absolutely going to have to be featured there because this write up is beautiful. And oh just to clear it up I don’t think the Lamenters are Shaman!! I think they were Hornsent executioners like you said, I just think they utilized psychological torture in the Lamenter’s Gaol while wearing those masks while they did it. Totally in agreement with you!!
@@kitetales I'd be honored to see these ideas refined and presented in one of your well-produced videos :)
Oh, and I totally misunderstood the part about the Lamenters! Sorry about that, upon rewatching I have no idea how I ended up thinking you were saying that they were prisoners.
oh man, my mom walked in during a close up of the lamenting jar people, and she was like" what is that, it's ugly as sh**" poor shamans never catch a break
Your mom working part time as a Bonny Gaol warden?! 🤣
@@kitetales lol, she is for sure the warden of the house.
What’s honestly interesting is that, in the original Japanese version, ‘Shaman’ actually means ‘Shrine Maiden.’
Marika’s village was most likely an all-women, or at least matriarchal society of shrine maiden women.
What about some of the ghosts we saw? There were men too i think
The worst part is that from what we know of how the Erdtree works, these shamans may be like this forever. Even if we kill them possibly, the Erdtree may bring them back as they died. May.
That idea harshens my mood such that I searched elsewhere. And remembered that in the basement floor of the Shadow Keep, there were jar people. And some corpses of them on what looked to be medical beds. My initial assumption was, as members of the Golden Order, and Messmers rank, it was possible he was attempting to restore them or help them. After all they are the reason the war happened. But noting how currently, it was lacking any of Messmers men, with corpses and their item drops, one behind an illusory wall, and it’s in the basement. I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t help. It was study and experimentation. Just as the floor above it contained literature and specimens of the crucible, the jar people were another hornsent created oddity never before seen and thus subject to study. And it’s chaotic and abandoned state is due to negligence and rebellion by the jar people.
So maybe help is possible. Considering Messmer didn’t try. And who knows. Maybe being in a jar, they’ve been unable to die till our character comes along and frees them from that frame. In a million years the Erdtree will bring em back as they were before.
Although really I kinda doubt it.
Unless you do Fia’s ending and bring death back to the world I suppose😅
Why yes I agree with this I do believe it's possible that Messmer was trying to cure them but he couldn't knowing that they we're Marikas friends and family and he seeked his mother's validation above all else he probably tried at least
@@jordancantrell.. id imagine that’s probably where it started yea. Well intended. But then was forgotten as war proceeded. Afterall, what would gain him the greatest validation if not that.
The thing I like most about Shadow of the Erdtree is the kitetails videos
Awwww shucks 😊❤️
Wake up babe, new kitetales lore video dropped
Ring that that summon bell baby!! 🔔
Kitetales, I sincerely hope that you make these videos long after the Elden Ring hype has died down. These are the best lore videos hands down.
That is such a huge compliment, thank you!! 🙏
Given the Dev's love for the anabaptists, the pots and the cages are both inspired by the Munster Rebellion. They were left to rot for a purpose.
Appreciate you voicing the spirits!
Wow, that lore was extremely...jarring 😮
The scene in the story trailer is probably marika pulling strands from the lump of flesh attached to her before ascending
There are two conclusions I can draw from this:
* Those who commit atrocities often have reasons we could empathize with. We assume lack of humanity when they can't tell their side of the story, like Marika in the base game.
* Justified or not, atrocities are still terrible. We should be careful with justice. It can easily blind one, and turn into a monster.
Very well edited and narrated video 👏🏽
Thank you so much!
To begin with I was sympathetic to the Hornsent as victims of Marika's brutal crusade. Now I'm like 'eff the bloody lot of you, I ain't on anybody's side!'
Breaking out the vintage Bonny Pinot Jar for this one
You are so bad!! 🤣
I had my volume down when you said “almost naked men”
I thought I heard
“Moist naked men”
Which tbf would be accurate as well 😂
This should land me some good sponsorships 🤣
Amazing video, I wanna know more about the shamans and their connection to ancestral followers. Specifically where the ancestral followers stand in the war of numen vs hornsent or if they just stay out of it. I've been interested in the vague bits of their culture, and I have been bringing up the possability that the stone tablets with pictures near them are not read top to bottom like a person would normally read, but bottom to top in a similar way that they the ancestrals follwers, end up looking from bottom to top for most things around them. like looking up to giant built structures and statues, looking up to the stars, and looking up to perhaps their ruler. Jack bringing up spaceships in his video is awesome to me, because i think those tablets describes an ascending process with those ships at the top being similar to the ships in the cerulean coast, but specifically the rift. Idk if they always ended up there, but they seem to be unfortunately becoming dregs of themselves in a place more like a sewer. I think there is a good reason the putrecent knight looks like a horse person, it's like the ancestral follower culture seeped down there. But did what I want to know is, did Marika curse them, or are they experiencing something similar to the shaman at the hands of the nox? or perhaps something else?
Anyways, I'm bout to check out a recomended video from one of my other favorite lore enthusiasts!
Great plot twist. Marika has her share of foul deeds. But her origins paint her in a very different light. Up to the point where Messmer seems like an OK guy for burning the hornsent to the ground
“They were never saints, just they just lost a war”
The worst thing about the soiled loincloth is that you are wearing it secondhand
So nasty!!
Could the jar ritual be tied to the formless mother?
It’s tenuous and I don’t have a full grasp yet, but I mean the blindfold, using sinners - makes me think of the bloody thorns and the blood Star even tho they don’t use thorns.
My understanding of the whip is they horribly wound someone and hope they blend with other life - the formless mother requires a wound, and who else wounds themselves to blend with other life? Godrick who has the “curse of grafting”.
Im fully tinfoil hat over here and need to do a lot more investigation of grafting, the omen, the blood fiends, the albinaurics etc - but AFAIK we don’t see a successful “Saint” in the dlc - what if they Saints they were trying to make are the omen? What if that’s why grafting is so reviled? What if being whipped into the jar was an offering to the formless mother? What if Marika despises the Omen because they’re a harsh, harsh reminded of the horrors the Hornsent visited upon her people?
The blood fiend arm says it was “SANCTIFIED BY A BLOODY RITUAL” - what if they are Saints?
That is such a good connection, especially the idea about offering a wound as tribute before receiving the “blessing” of sainthood. The Hornsent Grandam has dialogue in which she puts a “curse of the omen” upon Marika but it made me wonder that maybe the omen, only half hornsent (?) are seen as impure by all because of their mixed heritage.
Thanks so much for the good write up, I’m putting that into my lore catalogue too!
it's more plausible that it's tide to the crucible, (a blend of all life) more fitting for the hornsents.
7:44 😅 that doesn't line up at all (how is that a match!)... but it does look like an inverted Elden Ring Icon. 🤔
@@Visigoth_ I meant the shape of her rune! Her little bent T pose; if you isolate all those shapes separately you can see just the modified T! But maybe I just have special eyes 😆
What's that armor set at 8:50, I can't find anything on it but I've seen it in a couple of videos now.
Its not an armor.
Take the the head you got after defeating that boss and take your clothes off, then use it, you'll transform
@@titanus261 Thanks!
I have a different theory. The jarring is only part of the process. Ultimately the gate of divinity is where these living saints were used. And it was Marika who ordered it and that is why her rune is on the living saints' foreheads. Marika also betrayed the hornsent, you can see their bodies surrounding the gate of divinity as if anticipating the birth of their new god only to be killed by her. The golden braid was her confession. Messmer is in the land of shadows to burn all traces of the original sin, the sacrifice of the shamans, and to seal and guard the gate of divinity.
Nah.
The fossilized remains at the gate are Hornsent, not shaman.
@@varsoonhks3211that’s what he said
Yo, what if the Shamans were to other living beings what gold is to other materials? When the shamans were ground up into jars and mixed with other living organisms, this could be like alloying gold with other metals to produce elements that LOOK like gold but which do not share the same properties as gold (such as never rusting or _tarnishing)._
Elden ring has these horrified places
Dancing Villagers
Bonny Village
Very disturbing indeed. Not so bonny that village after all.
Interesting connection to the Delaroche painting. Warms my art-historian heart.
Something has kind of bothered me about the butterflies in game. Butterflies are the adult form of a caterpillar but there have not been any caterpillars in the game until the Potentates of Bonny Village. I'm not sure if there is a link but I wonder what the caterpillar mask's caterpillars are for/from.
Something I don't get with the Lamenters... if you actually read the item you get from the boss, it says that even the hornsent seemed disturbed by stuff related to whatever is going on with the Lamenters.
I love your taste in art 🙂
Thank you so much!! ❤️
I made a terrible mistake watching this video for lunch
Jack would be stuffing people in jars.
The hornsent tried to take life and death into their own hands and failed, Marika also tried to take life and death into her own hands and eventually fails, I guess it’s foreshadowing 😢
weird question: the voice effect used over Jack is a mimics voice whenever hes voicing the spirits, the sorta ghostly echo-y effect. ive seen it used in a bunch of places but always wondered what exactly its called or how its achieved. if anyone could answer id appreciate it. thanks!
Yes please check this video out, I followed his steps and it sounds SO good! ua-cam.com/video/HBF-PeJBD_U/v-deo.htmlsi=ewfuhA2NolZrWhqa
@@kitetales thanks a million!
“Soiled loin cloth” 🤢🤮
FromSoft did them dirty! Literally 🤢
@@kitetales 🤣😂
How I wish to be a fly in the wall in the room when they come up with this stuff 😂
What I find so interesting is that no one is calling things "Shaman" in The Lands Between.
Given that the Numen (already a pun with "New Men") is the race of people Marika is of...
And given that the Hornsent viewed the Shaman as viable Saints due to their irregular and unique flesh...
I wonder if "Shaman" is the Hornsent name/word for "Numen".
I was wondering myself if that rune on the shaman women foreheads was "their" rune from the start or if it was one assigned to them by the hornsent. Considering how important that symbol would go on to be in the lands between, I find its origin very interesting
Thats basically Alexander without his pot
I wonder if the Hornsent potentates who inflicted the most pain towards Marika's people weren't given a long and torturous death like their brethren, but instead punished in another cruel way. At Altus Plateau there are these Wormface creatures which wander and cry in the foggy woods. I always asked myself what those creature's origins were, and I thought they were the consequences of Godwyn's death though this doesn't explain much. After seeing the Caterpillar mask and the cruelty that the Hornsent inflicted on the Shamans - maybe Marika cursed the potentates to turn into these grotesque creatures, disfigure their faces into a literal bouquet of worms due to their masks and settled them just far enough to Leyndell. Because what is more humiliating than morphing into a hideous creature which is eternally condemned to wander around, constantly reminded of the bloodshed and helplessness by living in the vincinity of their greatest enemy's city whose golden aura seems to mock them daily and nightly?
Can’t tell me the hornsent don’t become the worm faces from the main game. Their masks look just like them!
I feel bad I helped the Hornsent in his fight/revenge
I do too lmao
So are the small living pots children? 💀
Most likely
5:54 *Not a Statue* it's a mummified corpse.
That’s what I’m going to tell people when they see my Messmer statue
@@kitetales Do statues have "real hair and real clothes?" Because all of the other statues have "sculpted hair and sculpted clothes," but the figure in the Shaman Village has what looks like "real hair," and the figure in Bonny Village looks the same (but missing its head, but it does have very obvious "real clothes" instead of sculpted clothes.).
-
Here is my reasoning:
The two figures both have "real clothes," and the one in shaman village has "real hair" (their clothes and hair aren't the same color or material as their bodies: like all of the other statues).
Just look at the Wandering Nobles in the base game (they aren't statues either.).
-
Sokushinbutsu (即身仏)
The one thing I didn't like about Marika's origins, specifically the things her people went through, is that it seems too one sided with the hornsent as the clear bad guys and the shamans as the clear victims. It gives Marika some sense of justification for what she did.
Personally I would have made it so that the role of the shamans in the whole jar thing was voluntary, a part of their culture they shared with the hornsent, specifically the belief that the process will lead to some form of accession or a way to finally pass away since death would be difficult in a land that is heavily influenced by the crucible. Maybe have the jars fed to a giant albino snake in the hopes that it would make the people in the jars be reborn since snakes are a symbol of rebirth, this can also be used to explain the hatred and antagonistic mentality against snakes in the Lands Between.
Another way is that the jar process was part of the ritual that created the gate of divinity. Part of the culture of the hornsent is that they believe that the spiral symbolizes some form of ascension from the wild crucible energies to refined godhood, at least that's what I remember from one of the hornsent incantations.
Edit, July 4:
Ok, so I just learned that in the Shaman Village there's the shedded skin of a big albino serpent, similar to the one found in the god skin noble arena in Volcano Manor, that may lend some credence to my theory slash fan made story. I swear I didn't know about this before today.
I felt the same way; I’ve been unsure if the Hornsent were original or added to explain why she hates the Omen and Misbegotten so much. Felt like an easy way out of what I’ve always thought was an analogy to the atrocities committed in the name of religion. Now… it’s just revenge? Seems to really have simplified it.
Nah it works far better if the Shaman were just the victims. It illustrates the most important lesson in both forgiveness and moving on: Hurt people hurt people. Monsters are created, not born and Marika was created by the evils of her homeland thus creating an even bigger monster.
The Grandmother statue is blindfolded like the Living Jars, which could indicate that the jarring process was part of their culture as well.
Maybe the Hornsent stopped the rituals once they saw the Lamenters' madness, which risked burning their sacred spirits (see Lamenter's Mask, Surging Frenzied Flame and Revered Spirit Ash descriptions alongside the yellow "madness"-light from the Lamenter's Visage). The realization that all of that suffering had been for nothing started the disillusioned shaman Marika down the mad path of vengeance that cursed her with godhood.
Or maybe the Hornsent were just really bad dudes, idk.
Ok, so I just learn that in the Shaman Village there's the shedded skin of an albino serpent, similar to the one found in the god skin noble arena in Volcano Manor, that may lend some credence to my theory slash fan made story. I swear I didn't know about this before today.
the jar monsters reminds me of resident evil
product of similar experimentation
humans are awful, doing horrible things for the sake of belief (hornsent), revenge (marika), science and money (umbrella)
to be honest the hornsent had it comming, and they're delusionnal enough calling marika a traitor.
Personally i find hard to believe that the rune on the head of the jar sacrifices is marikas, it wouldn't make much sense...
On the contrary i see the rune of death in the seal (giving us a link to the godskins, especially considering that the Bonny ritual is similar in nature ot that from Dominula), over another rune or two, resembling a Y and a )(.
Did we find any other possible runelike simbols or seals that are linked to the hornsent?
Perhaps in the incantations schools exclusive to the shadowlands there might be some clue...
7:03 i dont think its a sculpture at all its her body, same as what miquella did with the haligtree, we know they can mix flesh with things, snakes, other tarnished, trees in miquellas case, maybe that's why they are eternal, they like forever chemicals lol
I am the last one to defend psychotic Leda but on this matter she was right. The Hornsent were never saints.
Going on a bloodbath in Jarburg during my next playthrough.
I stand with Messmer, the Hornsent must be purged.
Framing the kind of violence that creates someone who will commit genocide without defending or siding with a serial genocider is a hard line to walk, I think the game does it much better than a lot of the people making videos about it, because the game is pretty explicit that these cycles of violence only continue when violence is the answer. Marika committed genocide multiple times on her path to what she considered retribution and it is disturbing so many people have been like yeah I totally get it I would do that too, especially when the game is saying that revenge won't fix your trauma. The action of making people into jars continued under her rule and that's not talked about enough.. thanks for not excusing her actions while talking about the injustices here
That Jar in Caelid… imagine dying in the coliseum.
To my understanding people in the lands between were only put into jars after they were already dead, not like the shamans who were kidnapped and wipped.
@@harrisonfoster3618 that's fair, her pain still doesn't justify the multiple genocides she committed
Why does the lamenter have the fell god of fire head on his back. He also has red hair... ?
Would they really make so many jars just to accomplish nothing? I wonder if maybe they were trying to do something with the jars and would have succeeded if Marika and Messmer hadn't stopped them.
They were trying to "make saints."
@@tonylawson2222 Does anyone understand what exactly that means? Were they trying to make vessels for spirits to possess, like a more permanent version of the lion boss?
Any thoughts as to why theres a giant white shedded snake skin near the village?
I choose to belive that most Hornsent weren't really involved... cause I love the Hornsent culture and when I figured out what happened to the Shamans I was genuinely disappointed in them lol
I do think most of them did not know what was going on or at least the extent of it… a statement on “ignorance is bliss” for sure. Lots of religious parallels with them!
@@kitetales yeah exactly! most people of the Erdtree probably had no idea about the genocides Godfrey and Marika conducted either!
They probably knew in the same way that the Erdtree culture knows of how it treats others
The city is full of trees with shamans shoved into them.
Your videos are really good great theory’s and explanation of the lore.
Your voice is soo lovely!
Thank you so much!! 🥲❤️
I like hearing the weird lore of fromsoft games. Its unlike any other games, even when other games try to imitate fromsoft. They were a perfect match with george rr martin. I also used to spent hours reading the lore of westeros. Yknow, back when he wrote books.
I think George got spirited-away to shiny projects, it’s taken him away from his writing cave ☹️
I don't blame him. Writing for current projects is hard cause you gotta keep the themes and characters going. New projects let the creative juices flow since you have no restrictions.
@@mr-laroque9604 well its his choice but and it was my choice to get into him at a dance with dragons despite his reputation. 🧏♀️
It is creepy!
I see creepy, I gotta look into it 👏
Marika didn't go on a violent path towards retribution. She enacted a genocide. That genocide is all over the DLC landscape, from destroyed settlements to mass graves.
After what was done to her people, heck I don't blame her. Only thing she messed up there, was that she wasn't thorough
@@bored8321retribution in the means of retaliation in this sense. Which would make total sense, genocide as a means of retaliation. Marika became very powerful and when your basically a god and as the gold mask found, still feeble as man, you do stuff like that.
I feel like they aren't mutually exclusive. See the ongoing genocide in Palestine. The Zionists view it as retribution for the violence on Oct 8th, and while it undoubtedly is based in those emotions it doesn't make it any less of a genocide.
She did what needed to be done
Found ya again
Also what is war but sacrificing someone else's children?
I have a theory about the Hornsent. Based on Hornsent's last words when you kill him in Leda's bossfight, we can assume that the Hornsent society was based on clans.
The Hornsent's -npc- clan was in Bonny village where the jar cult began. The Belurat clan was different. There the cult was built around the divine beasts and birds.
The cult of the jars was based on sacrificing people, even hornsent. But that doesn't match with the cult described in the descriptions of horned warriors and curseblades. The tutelary deities, and the sculpted keepers (the horned warriors' ultimate purpose) are beings raised by acetic and self-sacrifice life. So, my theory is that the Bonny village clan imposed its cult on the people from Belurat, creating the gaols and starting the Jar tradition. I assume that, based on what we can see inside the Bonny village gaol, the hornsent imprisoned Curseblades, who were important figures dedicated to protecting the tower. And, after Messmer's crusade, we can assume that the Curseblades we see managed to escape, and returned to the tower along with the remaining horned warriors
ill bet there will be an elden ring movie/series soon enough
I have a question and possibly a theory. What about Godrick the Grafted and his practises of grafting? I've been watching a couple of your videos, and mostly the ones about the Hornsent's Jar practises give me similar vibes to what Godrick was practising as well. Do you think it's worth exploring?
This video helped me find a secret ending too the finger guy Ymir I had all the stuff I just need to know the lore so I could figure it out thanks!
@@StaticVideoProduction what was the secret ending?!
@@kitetales where jolan kills ymir
@@StaticVideoProduction whoa what!!! I didn’t know about that! Gonna have to go look that up!
Please tell me the jar pun was intentional 😂
Only the chosen ones find the puns in my videos 💙
In reference to my further comment, do you guys know who the head of the pantheon of the Canaanite religion was?... Ba'al... Every reference to the devil with a ba in front of it, references this character
good voice