@@davidlindsey6111 Not me, he's the American Curator of Armour at London's Wallace Collection, our ships are on an interception course as he's tearing the iconic Agincourt apart from a weaponry approach, I'm doing the same from a geopolitical angle on the edge of the Warburg Institute. When the Royal Armouries moved to Leeds, they commissioned a friend of the family (my late wife's, Welsh, you know...), Sir Karl Jenkins, to compose a work for them, The Armed Man. Where the idea came from is anybody's guess, it's possible Cousin Lesley, who ran his local, The Welcome to Gower, may have told him what we were up to, which was eventually gonged with the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize: the work culminated in catching the Roman Catholic seat of the Eucharist as it fell, which led me straight back to a new discovery in the roots of the Renaissance. The entire thing had been set up by a French Cardinal, attempting to stop the Hundred Years War, which had riven the Church, they'd ended up with 3 contending Popes! Allied with the Holy Roman Emperor who needed a unified Christendom to fight off the Ottomans, who clearly had eyes on the Danube lands - this is the setting of Vlad the Impaler, in passing - the French were irritants, and were taken down by Henry V at Agincourt. Now, Henry was closely allied with Burgundy, an HRE fiefdom, in the wool trade, so it doesn't take much to put two and two together, particularly with my experience at the same level in the modern European Council. Heck, one of my ancestors was the Sieur de Gosse de Gorre, head of a band of routiers, freelancer ronin of exactly the kind described in the work. Karl's is simply one of the most recent takes on a French folksong from the same area, first used as folk mass by Guillaume Dufay - it's been rearranged something like 80 times in the 600 years since. Coming into it tracing the religious side at the behest of the Belgian Supreme Court, I spotted this Cardinal had done exactly the same as we'd do now. He presented an argued case, where we'd use academic logic now, he used academic theology then. A Quadrivium case, where two of his team at the Concilium, Dufay and van Eyck, prepared studies of the text from which most Chrismas readings are drawn, Jan van Ruusbroec's Spiritual Tabernacle, the first consolidation of Eucharistic Theology. This was used to invert tgebsecular power structure, the Popes were now to be top dog.
Same here. This gun would fit perfectly into the Star wars universe in my opinion. Because the vehicles and weapons (the older ones, not the sequel ones) are this mix of different things, with the main priority is that it can be cheaply model for the shots. This is why they look so iconic, chaotic and yet harmonic at the same time with e.g.TIE fighter and a Mon Calamari cruiser look so different and yet they fit perfectly into each other
I actually thought I read it wrong, I was like "cool, a pump action sniper?!" then he kept going on about it being bullpup and I was like "did I misread bullpup as pump action?!" had to exit full screen to check XD
I gained my Marksman badge on the old .303 in the CCF in the late '50's I could use the bolt without losing my aim too much, though whether that would be good enough for a sniper I don't know, it was good enough for a double tap once I joined up. My dad was posted as the Chief Clerk of the Small Arms School in Kent as a colour SGT in the Lancashire Fusiliers in the early '60's, he took us four boys into work quite often on a Saturday morning and we saw many fantastic small arms being tested. The ranges were just behind our Quarters in Dymchurch Cottages and we boys often squirmed up the sandunes to watch the action. Great times. Jonathan are your books available on Kindle?
Unfortunately, Ian McCollum, owner of headstamp publishing and forgotten weapons, has said there will never be ebooks of headstamp titles due to piracy. Admittedly he has sound reasoning, but as someone with a large ebook collection and a small physical collection, id love to have one in ebook form as well.
Very odd to hear the words "pump-action" and "sniper rifle" in the same sentence, but I have to admit, the pump-action's visually subtle; was wondering where the hell it was on it. Plus, I love weird weapon designs like this are, so it's definitely unique.
Thank you so much for doing this video! ever since i saw the gun in sniper elite 5 i have been looking for details on this gun but couldnt find much, you're video is nicely detailed and seeing the gun itself was awesome!
@@wessexdruid7598 I know I saw his video on sniper elite 5 I added this comment because I couldn't find more details on the srem 1 anywhere and then this video came out
05:00 By the time you shoot you have already lost the aiming point. Not to mention the extra movement of the hand and arm to pull back the grip and open the bolt. Push the grip again to feed the new cartridge. Retake the position and aiming again. The rifle is smaller, which leads to probably less weight and therefore greater recoil. Now, let's go to a poor single scope ring, which has to keep a telescope as heavy as No. 32 at zero after firing a 7.92x57 cartridge. Seriously, some designers were a little lost at the time.
My grandfather was WSI special forces/commando NCO and code breaker all through the war, serving in various units and regiments like the LRDG, SBS, SASB and 1stSSB. Running lots of recon, intelligence gathering sorties and capture/kill missions. He said they gave him and the blokes all kinds of experimental stuff to try, but in the end, most either didn't work or was too unreliable... (He hated the STEN and all variants for eg, if it didnt jam, it was just as dangerous to the owner as it was the enemy). Said if you had to be quiet, you used your dagger. The best British rifle he used was actually the P14, especially for sharpshooting. He tried to hold onto that for as long as he could, before they eventually took it off him and handed him a No4 claiming it was better (he didnt think so). Eventually late war, they were using a lot of American stuff (Which they traded booze and ciggies for). The regular UK Army would often "requision" their stuff prior to D-Day, so often had to go find new stuff or trade for it. Post D-Day tbey were dar better kitted out. The Bren was his all time favourite weapon of the war, it never let him down. They got the job done with what little they had. Special Operations often didnt have the best stuff, despite popular opinion.
SOE had half of Baker Street reworking everything anyway, as it had to pass German inspection in the street. Mum's aunt ran the La Libre Belgique, and she was picked up by MI9 aged 13, as their home became the unofficial consulate in 1940. By 43, she was one of the jailbait screen ahead of downed aircrew. She only let a couple of things slip, but then I found myself living among the Belgians who covered them while waiting for the next Comet Line run, and learned the lot.
they had massive stockpiles of .303 ammo and guns after WW1, and they were broke, so using what was left over made economic sense, when WWII started everyone was already trained with an Enfield the production lines were already running and there was no money or time to design and build the factories to make a new rifle and the .303 being a heavy rimmed round doesn't work as well in magazine fed semi/automatic weapons, though the BREN is an exception as mentioned in the Video it's only recently that Semi automatics have become as accurate as bolt action rifles and Accuracy International makes a really, really good bolt action Sniper Rifle, third longest confirmed kill in the world at 2,475 metres with an Accuracy International L115A3 long-range rifle this is why the British army stuck to Bolt action sniper rifles so long
@@bigsteppamoe4173 it was effective enough at the time, but by 1945 it was obvious that higher calibre rounds such as .303 were unnecessary, and there were more effective, lower calibre types in development. I wouldn’t say that .303 was a “bum round” it was still in use for the standard British sniper rifle (the No. 4 T) until the late ‘60’s / early ‘70’s with the adoption of the 7.62 L42. Taliban snipers were using the “Bum round” .303 in the 2010’s to great effect.
A good comparison for the dropping bolt in a full power rifle would be the earlier Ed Browning self-loading rifle that competed with the Pederson and Garand rifles for the US Trials, there's a reason that Winchester changed the Bolt design of the G30 as they continued development, Forgotten Weapons has an entire series on the development of the G30 family for anyone interested. Here's the link, second video on the Winchester guns shows the problems with a bolt that drops into the stock: ua-cam.com/video/ioi7D6ce_34/v-deo.html
Ed Browning had a semi-auto with the bolt recoiling back and down: The G30. It has a related development to the M-1 Carbine. I think I got this info from Hatcher's Book of the Garand or maybe Hatcher's Notebook.
My family are long distance shooters, the right handers converted to left hand actions with bipod’s and the lefties to right hand actions. You can keep possession of the rifle and trigger better while you use what would be your front stock hand to reload and cycle the action. With a bipod you don’t need a front hand to hold the rifle it is now used to cycle the action. The back hand keeps the sights/scope on target and cycles the trigger.
Its such a curious choice given how effective the No 4T was as a sharpshooters or snipers rifle. The bolt throw on the Enfield being so easy to use you can work it with just your fingers.
Sommer & Ockenfuss griffrepetierer. I have one, and it is very accurate. You can reload it pretty fast if you train with it for a while, but it is nothing I would ever consider for an infantry-rifle.
Snipers - AFAIK - rarely rip the bolt backwards and forwards "at a fair old rate". And that looks to me almost as bad as a bolt action for destroying your sight picture, which wasn't a huge problem on the SMLE if I remember my cadet days.
The pain on jons face while operating the weapon " with some welly " and when he dry fires it his expression can only be described as aghast. Its matched only by that pride when he says phrases like "the only one in the world" Just as a consummate proffessional in his field should. Jonathan is exactly what i want a keeper pf firearms and artillery should be. I can also see him doimg a cameo in a red dwarf episode, incidentally. Not sure why. Somethig about his humour.
Thought I'd chime in on weapons with bolts that ride a track down such as the SREM, the Russian TKB-011 I believe has a similar system to this. It was an experimental design in the early-mid 60's as a bullpup firearm with a wacky bolt system which can be seen by it's charging handle having to ride up to align with the barrel before pulling it back, no doubt meaning the bolt wasn't a typical straight or turn bolt design to it though ofc it was never taken beyond that phase as it would have been far to complex for any kind of widespread adoption.
Was a good weapon in the Sniper Elite 5 game at least!! Interesting to know how they try to replicate actual performance into a computer game equivalent.
I love that the British came up with a needlessly complicated design (which from the outset was a terrible idea) but ultimately thought "sod it this is too complicated" and just kept using the same rifle they already had for another 40 years
The Garand itself is fairly like that, isn't it? Its bolt does drop down in the receiver and its track does go down at an angle. Much slighter than the SREM of course.
Was it even commissioned purely to demonstrate that it wasn't a good idea and that the status quo or a self loader were the only things worth pursuing?
I splendid free extra to the book. I've got mine. I think it sold out(?). Pretend to buy it on Amazon and help get a second edition printed. Ian McCollum reprinted 'Chassepot to FAMAS' when it was being offered for more than the cover price.
You can get an AR variant in pump action. I'm watching a channel where a cattle station manager has to do a lot of invasive camel,culling and the state won't allow semi automatics. Australian farmer guy has them in .223 and .300- I Would like one with a semi pistol grip.
Of course the biggest mistake behind this design is the notion that it's bad for a sniper to 'disturb' their own sight picture by cycling the bolt in the first place. Because if you're a sniper and you want to keep your sight picture on the exact same spot after firing, it's because you missed and at that point you've either: a. already achieved your goal (if your goal, as it usually was for snipers, isn't necessarily to kill someone, but to force the enemy into cover) or b. already failed in your goal (if your goal _was_ to kill a specific someone, because if you have to manually cycle the bolt they'll probably have ducked into cover before you can fire again no matter how well you maintain your sight picture while cycling). 'I have to disrupt my sight picture to cycle the bolt' is the kind of complaint you'd find from people doing target shooting on a range, where the target is stationary and at a fixed distance, not in combat where having to cycle the bolt and re-acquire a target either isn't an issue or the issue is with having to cycle the bolt before being able to fire again in the first place, not whether that breaks up your sight picture (in which case the only real solution is a semi-automatic).
Gotta be honest. I'm an American (casual) Gamer and I love the Sniper Elite games. Though my mains are the Enfield rifle and the Webley revolver, or the High Standard IS pistol.
Because if there's one thing snipers want; it's a rifle with moveable grip that's also part of a loud, clacky action that requires you to move your whole shooting arm to operate (and I'm sure that bullpup trigger is a joy...).
One thing I never understood is why countries didn't make magazine fed rifles their main weapon during WW2. I mean, by this point magazines were already commonplace right, and both the Russians and Germans had a magazine fed rifle. So why did other countries come up with solutions like this or even rely on bolt action rifles anyway? Is it because they didn't think it was necessary for soldiers to be able to have semiautomatic fire, or were there issues with magazine fed rifles of the time?
According to Ian Skennerton, the reason for this design was that the arm movement required to manipulate the bolt of the standard SMLE often gave away the position of the sniper to the enemy.
He's not describing sniping then. If they are close enough to see you cock it then they saw and heard the muzzle report as well. A sniper on a planned stalk relocates after a shot rather than having another go.
If they could see that, he was dead anyway. I just rechecked the action, a twist of the forearm with the ball at the base of the thumb, the hand turns ovev and that works the bolt back, then the reverse. The biggest issue was putting another clip in every 5 rounds.
@@crystalbiro6158 Kraut space magic? No, it’s old, 1800’s old. There is a huge heavy disk in the stock that winds a clock spring 270deg to absorb the recoil and feed the next round
Presumably by this time the iron sights were mostly for backup, but doesn't an iron sight sniper rifle lose accuracy, at least potentially, by trading sight radius for overall rifle length?
As a bullpup vs a full length rifle, you mean? Yes, it does, but then that's not the only factor of importance. Everything's a compromise, and a long sight radius is no help at all on a rifle that is too bulky to take into certain theatres and move around with effectively on the ground. Also: military sniping in 1944 is mostly a few hundred meters range or less, nothing like what we see today
I wonder why the people in charge of finding a new sniper rifle didn't go to H&H and say I want you to make us a sniper rifle that's good for x number of yards and see what they could come up with. I think they would have came up with a great rifle! Probably would have set a new standard? maybe they charged too much?
I'd never heard of this gun but apart from .22 Rimfire pump action centre fire rifles are rather rare.The Remington pump rifle springs to mind which was made in .30 06 and possibly other calibres too.I believe that it's held that pump action centre fire rifles tend to shake loose and are less accurate than bolt action.
*OMG!* This is exactly what I've designed in my head as a way to convert a straight pull rifle to fire with a pump mechanism. I imagined it on something like the Ross Mk 3. The pistol-grip pump mechanism is what I conjured up. (Forestock pumps don't work out for firing prone.) It allows cycling the action while not moving the hand up and down and also helps keep the rifle close to on target during cycling. Started thinking about this when Forgotten Weapons showed a shotgun with a pump slide behind the trigger. (No pistol grip.) This was invented to get around the patent that Winchester held on the conventional slide at the time. Of course a shotgun mechanism can't simply be put into a full-sized rifle. I was imagining a WW1 era weapon that allowed a rate of fire similar to a Garand. With a 10 round box magazine (think SMLE, stripper clips) it would work well and when a large volume of fire was needed a squad could really put it out. A quasi-full-auto selection would be enabled by allowing it to fire with each pump, no need to pull the trigger.
It's really interesting how many people get similar ideas. I mean if one knows a bit about firearms, there is definitely certain guidelines as to how to design one because of existing designs, yet the magic of the actual profession is (or rather was, at least a lot more prominenly) thinking outside of the box. The real deal however comes when people with great ideas have the capabilities to get their designs built, known, tested and improved. Sadly not many people can do this but if they did, i bet we'd see a lot more of interesting designs. That's why i absolutely love Ian McCollum and Johnathan Ferguson because they understand the entire process of firearms development throughout history AND have access to many many designs unknown to even the average firearms enthusiast. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that i also thought of a pistol grip pump action rifle when I was younger and in my head this is exactly what it would look like 😅
Unfortunately Fort Halstead has now closed, with the MOD (Dstl) officially leaving and locking the gates on 14 October 2022. Various private/commercial firms and housing development will wash away the MOD's hundred years plus of development work on site......
Clever idea! Only ever seen something similar but that was on an LMG where the pistol grip racked the first round. As for the cheek touching that metal cover, a rubber cover or leather glued over it would solve that, even the game model you showed has it covered with a wide canvas cover that would work too.
This weapon would perfectly fit into a Star wars movie. I imagine it as a balster-desintegrator hybrid (sniper)rifle which ejects the "round" of the desintegrator ammo and would fire without reload blasters (a.k.a. lasers).
The experimental Winchester G30M and related prototypes have a bolt that drops into the wrist of the stock. Also the Benelli MR-1 rifle and M4 Super 90 shotgun have a bolt extension that rides down into the stock to engage the recoil spring. Does that count?
That sounds like a really great way to make what should be a relatively simple weapons system, needlessly complex.
Yeah it seems like a sharpshooter doesn't need the extra savings on weapon length
seems like a job for a german engineer
It's Czech design in one rifle
@@mixmastermind Well the bullpupness of this rifle really didn't hurt it, and if you can decrease length it's always a benefit
While odd, it is actually not that complex for what it is.
You can tell he is a museum curator. He winced harder dry firing the rare artifact than many people do with live ammunition in a large caliber.
I would too knowing that a dryfire can ruin my gun
@@bestrussianjaxfromrussia181 The only one in existence I might add...
"Keeper of Firearms and Artillery" has got to be one of the most kickass job titles out there.
specialy when used as a pickupline ;)
@@Gn8Lif3 “I know a lot about cannons…”
Try Toby Capwell, World Champion Jouster, then!
Seriously though. What an honor. Many Americans are no doubt envious. Lol
@@davidlindsey6111 Not me, he's the American Curator of Armour at London's Wallace Collection, our ships are on an interception course as he's tearing the iconic Agincourt apart from a weaponry approach, I'm doing the same from a geopolitical angle on the edge of the Warburg Institute. When the Royal Armouries moved to Leeds, they commissioned a friend of the family (my late wife's, Welsh, you know...), Sir Karl Jenkins, to compose a work for them, The Armed Man. Where the idea came from is anybody's guess, it's possible Cousin Lesley, who ran his local, The Welcome to Gower, may have told him what we were up to, which was eventually gonged with the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize: the work culminated in catching the Roman Catholic seat of the Eucharist as it fell, which led me straight back to a new discovery in the roots of the Renaissance. The entire thing had been set up by a French Cardinal, attempting to stop the Hundred Years War, which had riven the Church, they'd ended up with 3 contending Popes! Allied with the Holy Roman Emperor who needed a unified Christendom to fight off the Ottomans, who clearly had eyes on the Danube lands - this is the setting of Vlad the Impaler, in passing - the French were irritants, and were taken down by Henry V at Agincourt. Now, Henry was closely allied with Burgundy, an HRE fiefdom, in the wool trade, so it doesn't take much to put two and two together, particularly with my experience at the same level in the modern European Council. Heck, one of my ancestors was the Sieur de Gosse de Gorre, head of a band of routiers, freelancer ronin of exactly the kind described in the work. Karl's is simply one of the most recent takes on a French folksong from the same area, first used as folk mass by Guillaume Dufay - it's been rearranged something like 80 times in the 600 years since.
Coming into it tracing the religious side at the behest of the Belgian Supreme Court, I spotted this Cardinal had done exactly the same as we'd do now. He presented an argued case, where we'd use academic logic now, he used academic theology then. A Quadrivium case, where two of his team at the Concilium, Dufay and van Eyck, prepared studies of the text from which most Chrismas readings are drawn, Jan van Ruusbroec's Spiritual Tabernacle, the first consolidation of Eucharistic Theology. This was used to invert tgebsecular power structure, the Popes were now to be top dog.
Even though its fairly complicated and awkward I find it's design with the pump-action oddly satisfying and pretty.
Same here. This gun would fit perfectly into the Star wars universe in my opinion. Because the vehicles and weapons (the older ones, not the sequel ones) are this mix of different things, with the main priority is that it can be cheaply model for the shots. This is why they look so iconic, chaotic and yet harmonic at the same time with e.g.TIE fighter and a Mon Calamari cruiser look so different and yet they fit perfectly into each other
Every innovation, however failed, improves the field.
The only one in the world! What a privilege to preserve this piece of history and show it off to the world - truly incredible
Now that's a title of a vid you can't miss.
I actually thought I read it wrong, I was like "cool, a pump action sniper?!" then he kept going on about it being bullpup and I was like "did I misread bullpup as pump action?!" had to exit full screen to check XD
Great that game designers are working with you to make their games more historically accurate and realistic.
I gained my Marksman badge on the old .303 in the CCF in the late '50's I could use the bolt without losing my aim too much, though whether that would be good enough for a sniper I don't know, it was good enough for a double tap once I joined up. My dad was posted as the Chief Clerk of the Small Arms School in Kent as a colour SGT in the Lancashire Fusiliers in the early '60's, he took us four boys into work quite often on a Saturday morning and we saw many fantastic small arms being tested. The ranges were just behind our Quarters in Dymchurch Cottages and we boys often squirmed up the sandunes to watch the action. Great times. Jonathan are your books available on Kindle?
Too picture heavy for kindle. They're available as hardback collector's books from Headstamp Publishing.
@@shockwavecity ah good point rewtuser, still, maybe in the future.
Sounds like an interesting childhood.
@@Chiller01 I was an Army brat, went to an Army school and then joined up myself Chiller, I didn't know much else really.
Unfortunately, Ian McCollum, owner of headstamp publishing and forgotten weapons, has said there will never be ebooks of headstamp titles due to piracy. Admittedly he has sound reasoning, but as someone with a large ebook collection and a small physical collection, id love to have one in ebook form as well.
Book plug within 30 seconds! Keep up the good content!
Very odd to hear the words "pump-action" and "sniper rifle" in the same sentence, but I have to admit, the pump-action's visually subtle; was wondering where the hell it was on it. Plus, I love weird weapon designs like this are, so it's definitely unique.
Thank you so much for doing this video! ever since i saw the gun in sniper elite 5 i have been looking for details on this gun but couldnt find much, you're video is nicely detailed and seeing the gun itself was awesome!
Jonathan is the reason Rebellion put it in the game, as he says.
@@wessexdruid7598 I know I saw his video on sniper elite 5 I added this comment because I couldn't find more details on the srem 1 anywhere and then this video came out
Perhaps the designer was the same guy who designed the Vz.54 sniper rifle. He lived in the UK during the war. The front end at least look similar.
Okay! ... Drumms!!!! It's a BULLPUMP-Action sniper rifle! Tadam-tssss
05:00 By the time you shoot you have already lost the aiming point. Not to mention the extra movement of the hand and arm to pull back the grip and open the bolt. Push the grip again to feed the new cartridge. Retake the position and aiming again. The rifle is smaller, which leads to probably less weight and therefore greater recoil.
Now, let's go to a poor single scope ring, which has to keep a telescope as heavy as No. 32 at zero after firing a 7.92x57 cartridge.
Seriously, some designers were a little lost at the time.
My grandfather was WSI special forces/commando NCO and code breaker all through the war, serving in various units and regiments like the LRDG, SBS, SASB and 1stSSB. Running lots of recon, intelligence gathering sorties and capture/kill missions. He said they gave him and the blokes all kinds of experimental stuff to try, but in the end, most either didn't work or was too unreliable... (He hated the STEN and all variants for eg, if it didnt jam, it was just as dangerous to the owner as it was the enemy). Said if you had to be quiet, you used your dagger. The best British rifle he used was actually the P14, especially for sharpshooting. He tried to hold onto that for as long as he could, before they eventually took it off him and handed him a No4 claiming it was better (he didnt think so). Eventually late war, they were using a lot of American stuff (Which they traded booze and ciggies for). The regular UK Army would often "requision" their stuff prior to D-Day, so often had to go find new stuff or trade for it. Post D-Day tbey were dar better kitted out. The Bren was his all time favourite weapon of the war, it never let him down. They got the job done with what little they had. Special Operations often didnt have the best stuff, despite popular opinion.
SOE had half of Baker Street reworking everything anyway, as it had to pass German inspection in the street. Mum's aunt ran the La Libre Belgique, and she was picked up by MI9 aged 13, as their home became the unofficial consulate in 1940. By 43, she was one of the jailbait screen ahead of downed aircrew. She only let a couple of things slip, but then I found myself living among the Belgians who covered them while waiting for the next Comet Line run, and learned the lot.
The idea of keeping the aim is sound, but it’s interesting that the British Armed Forces have kept bolt action rifles from WW1 to the present day.
they had massive stockpiles of .303 ammo and guns after WW1, and they were broke, so using what was left over made economic sense,
when WWII started everyone was already trained with an Enfield the production lines were already running and there was no money or time to design and build the factories to make a new rifle and the .303 being a heavy rimmed round doesn't work as well in magazine fed semi/automatic weapons, though the BREN is an exception
as mentioned in the Video it's only recently that Semi automatics have become as accurate as bolt action rifles and Accuracy International makes a really, really good bolt action Sniper Rifle, third longest confirmed kill in the world at 2,475 metres with an Accuracy International L115A3 long-range rifle
this is why the British army stuck to Bolt action sniper rifles so long
@@andreww2098 and yet the Soviets and the Germans (two states that placed great importance on sniping) both used semi-auto sniper rifles in WWII…
@@keithorbell8946 yeah but they aren’t chambered in the bum ass round that is .303 british
@@bigsteppamoe4173 it was effective enough at the time, but by 1945 it was obvious that higher calibre rounds such as .303 were unnecessary, and there were more effective, lower calibre types in development. I wouldn’t say that .303 was a “bum round” it was still in use for the standard British sniper rifle (the No. 4 T) until the late ‘60’s / early ‘70’s with the adoption of the 7.62 L42. Taliban snipers were using the “Bum round” .303 in the 2010’s to great effect.
From the 1888 Lee Metford onwards.
A good comparison for the dropping bolt in a full power rifle would be the earlier Ed Browning self-loading rifle that competed with the Pederson and Garand rifles for the US Trials, there's a reason that Winchester changed the Bolt design of the G30 as they continued development, Forgotten Weapons has an entire series on the development of the G30 family for anyone interested. Here's the link, second video on the Winchester guns shows the problems with a bolt that drops into the stock: ua-cam.com/video/ioi7D6ce_34/v-deo.html
"Why did this British pump-action sniper not get adopted?" Because just listen to that sentence out loud.
That is a fascinating design. I can definitely see why it was canned
Ed Browning had a semi-auto with the bolt recoiling back and down: The G30. It has a related development to the M-1 Carbine. I think I got this info from Hatcher's Book of the Garand or maybe Hatcher's Notebook.
The G30 action was scaled down for the M-1 Carbine so the relationship is quite close.
@Kelly Harbeson I won't ask... because I have two also! Like the bible, but with more guns.
This video was crazy! I'm into forgotten weapons, and this is a channel I would watch too. Weird one of a kind gun. Too cool.
A good few of Ians videos are filmed at The Royal Armouries. Wonderful collection.
Everything about this firearm in the title makes me almost physically ill.
"British Pump-Action Bullpup Sniper"
The fitelite scr rifle uses a downward bolt as it's an AR adapted to a traditional rifle stock.
My family are long distance shooters, the right handers converted to left hand actions with bipod’s and the lefties to right hand actions. You can keep possession of the rifle and trigger better while you use what would be your front stock hand to reload and cycle the action. With a bipod you don’t need a front hand to hold the rifle it is now used to cycle the action. The back hand keeps the sights/scope on target and cycles the trigger.
i imagine ripping the bolt back in a pump action would be more disruptive than a traditional bolt
You'd imagine wrong
Its such a curious choice given how effective the No 4T was as a sharpshooters or snipers rifle. The bolt throw on the Enfield being so easy to use you can work it with just your fingers.
I felt like I was stroking out for a second there reading that title
sniper elite is a fun game one of the few I play anymore.
Somner & Ockenfuss grieffrepieter was a german driven Hunt Gun made quite recently with the same type of reloading
Czech My guns has a video about it
Sommer & Ockenfuss griffrepetierer. I have one, and it is very accurate. You can reload it pretty fast if you train with it for a while, but it is nothing I would ever consider for an infantry-rifle.
Snipers - AFAIK - rarely rip the bolt backwards and forwards "at a fair old rate". And that looks to me almost as bad as a bolt action for destroying your sight picture, which wasn't a huge problem on the SMLE if I remember my cadet days.
I have the unshakable feeling that he got some serious news like the second before they started recording
Where's the magazine?
The pain on jons face while operating the weapon " with some welly " and when he dry fires it his expression can only be described as aghast.
Its matched only by that pride when he says phrases like "the only one in the world"
Just as a consummate proffessional in his field should.
Jonathan is exactly what i want a keeper pf firearms and artillery should be.
I can also see him doimg a cameo in a red dwarf episode, incidentally. Not sure why. Somethig about his humour.
Thought I'd chime in on weapons with bolts that ride a track down such as the SREM, the Russian TKB-011 I believe has a similar system to this. It was an experimental design in the early-mid 60's as a bullpup firearm with a wacky bolt system which can be seen by it's charging handle having to ride up to align with the barrel before pulling it back, no doubt meaning the bolt wasn't a typical straight or turn bolt design to it though ofc it was never taken beyond that phase as it would have been far to complex for any kind of widespread adoption.
Its funny seeing a real life rifle seeing more action in a videogame.
"We can now live with self loading rifles as true sniper rifles". So, waiting for an AR style rifle in .338 Laupua Magnum.
Was a good weapon in the Sniper Elite 5 game at least!! Interesting to know how they try to replicate actual performance into a computer game equivalent.
It is a very good book. Love to read it alot.
I love that the British came up with a needlessly complicated design (which from the outset was a terrible idea) but ultimately thought "sod it this is too complicated" and just kept using the same rifle they already had for another 40 years
Pistol Pump Sniper sounds like a good band name
Before sniper elite 5 came out and there was only trailers based on the barrel I thought this was going to be similar to the Lee Enfield lol
The Savage 99 drops down and back,but it's a falling block.
Beautiful wish some one would improve the design and put out a nice bush rifle
This gun looks like images that an AI makes when you ask it to draw a gun
Can you please explain how to reload this weapon ? Where are the bullets stored within the gun ?
This is what happens when you let your weapon designers alone unsupervised.
The Garand itself is fairly like that, isn't it? Its bolt does drop down in the receiver and its track does go down at an angle. Much slighter than the SREM of course.
Never got that! Thats of course one of the reasons that the garand can have a relativley short reciver!
Very cool rifle 👍
Really this is a straight pull but operated with with a pump grip.
That's it folks . We reached peak cursed gun.
Also willing to bet warzone will add this somehow if they didn't already
Was it even commissioned purely to demonstrate that it wasn't a good idea and that the status quo or a self loader were the only things worth pursuing?
I splendid free extra to the book. I've got mine. I think it sold out(?). Pretend to buy it on Amazon and help get a second edition printed. Ian McCollum reprinted 'Chassepot to FAMAS' when it was being offered for more than the cover price.
I would have been interested to be shown where the magazine is, what it's capacity is, and how it's reloaded.
You can get an AR variant in pump action. I'm watching a channel where a cattle station manager has to do a lot of invasive camel,culling and the state won't allow semi automatics. Australian farmer guy has them in .223 and .300- I Would like one with a semi pistol grip.
What the hell is that beast of a weapon on the end of the rack at the bottom to Jonathon's right?
Given what we know about percision shooting today,,,, I would be interested in seeing the scopes of the world wars and how they functioned...
Of course the biggest mistake behind this design is the notion that it's bad for a sniper to 'disturb' their own sight picture by cycling the bolt in the first place.
Because if you're a sniper and you want to keep your sight picture on the exact same spot after firing, it's because you missed and at that point you've either: a. already achieved your goal (if your goal, as it usually was for snipers, isn't necessarily to kill someone, but to force the enemy into cover) or b. already failed in your goal (if your goal _was_ to kill a specific someone, because if you have to manually cycle the bolt they'll probably have ducked into cover before you can fire again no matter how well you maintain your sight picture while cycling).
'I have to disrupt my sight picture to cycle the bolt' is the kind of complaint you'd find from people doing target shooting on a range, where the target is stationary and at a fixed distance, not in combat where having to cycle the bolt and re-acquire a target either isn't an issue or the issue is with having to cycle the bolt before being able to fire again in the first place, not whether that breaks up your sight picture (in which case the only real solution is a semi-automatic).
Gotta be honest. I'm an American (casual) Gamer and I love the Sniper Elite games. Though my mains are the Enfield rifle and the Webley revolver, or the High Standard IS pistol.
You're American? My condolences.
Damn, wish you’d have shown how it’s loaded and what capacity magazine it has.
I can see the shooter easily mashing his fingers on the trigger guard
Mr. Ferguson is this combination of features even legal in Europe? Pump-action bullpup sniper.
Because if there's one thing snipers want; it's a rifle with moveable grip that's also part of a loud, clacky action that requires you to move your whole shooting arm to operate (and I'm sure that bullpup trigger is a joy...).
One thing I never understood is why countries didn't make magazine fed rifles their main weapon during WW2. I mean, by this point magazines were already commonplace right, and both the Russians and Germans had a magazine fed rifle. So why did other countries come up with solutions like this or even rely on bolt action rifles anyway? Is it because they didn't think it was necessary for soldiers to be able to have semiautomatic fire, or were there issues with magazine fed rifles of the time?
How and where do the cartridges go in? I can't belive that you didn't show that.
According to Ian Skennerton, the reason for this design was that the arm movement required to manipulate the bolt of the standard SMLE often gave away the position of the sniper to the enemy.
He's not describing sniping then. If they are close enough to see you cock it then they saw and heard the muzzle report as well. A sniper on a planned stalk relocates after a shot rather than having another go.
If they could see that, he was dead anyway. I just rechecked the action, a twist of the forearm with the ball at the base of the thumb, the hand turns ovev and that works the bolt back, then the reverse. The biggest issue was putting another clip in every 5 rounds.
what a strange design. but very interesting for sure.
7:51 I think the TKB-011 and TKB-22M also have a similar bolt concept.
It’s not a dropping bolt but I vaguely remember a rotating system in the stock to absorb recoil and feed rounds?
Mad looking clockwork thing.
That must be the German caseless gun prototype. I can't remember it's name.
@@crystalbiro6158
Kraut space magic?
No, it’s old, 1800’s old.
There is a huge heavy disk in the stock that winds a clock spring 270deg to absorb the recoil and feed the next round
The Pistol grip cocking comes from the BESA surely? (although the action is of course different)
Interesting as always
Interesting that they considered 8mm mauser in a rifle.
Watching this video is a good way of passing the time while downloading the game... 😅
1944? I thought that thing would've been around WW1 to 1920s
Presumably by this time the iron sights were mostly for backup, but doesn't an iron sight sniper rifle lose accuracy, at least potentially, by trading sight radius for overall rifle length?
As a bullpup vs a full length rifle, you mean? Yes, it does, but then that's not the only factor of importance. Everything's a compromise, and a long sight radius is no help at all on a rifle that is too bulky to take into certain theatres and move around with effectively on the ground. Also: military sniping in 1944 is mostly a few hundred meters range or less, nothing like what we see today
Pretty hard to use a pump action prone, without losing your aim.
I wonder why the people in charge of finding a new sniper rifle didn't go to H&H and say I want you to make us a sniper rifle that's good for x number of yards and see what they could come up with. I think they would have came up with a great rifle! Probably would have set a new standard? maybe they charged too much?
Fort Halstead is also the place Brits designed their own atomic bomb.
Cool gun
Great presentation! nice weapon, but how do you charge it? magazine, clip, single load, precharge ammo in the stock?
In the video, I think you can see a charger guide for Mauser style stripper clips
Hate to make game references but why would Sniper Elite 5 us that as its default rifle if it's so obscure?
Yep... ...can't imagine a problem with two triggers.
Well this isn't a repeater so it's hardly a disaster if you do manage to mess up
Two triggers isn’t particularly uncommon for a older ranged weapon. It’s basically a safety to have a lighter trigger pull.
Where does the mag go?
I'd never heard of this gun but apart from .22 Rimfire pump action centre fire rifles are rather rare.The Remington pump rifle springs to mind which was made in .30 06 and possibly other calibres too.I believe that it's held that pump action centre fire rifles tend to shake loose and are less accurate than bolt action.
Nobody: ...
Brits: "Let's make it a bullpup!"
I would be a gas ,to have Ian from Forgotten weapons ,use this in a two gun match ,
*OMG!* This is exactly what I've designed in my head as a way to convert a straight pull rifle to fire with a pump mechanism. I imagined it on something like the Ross Mk 3. The pistol-grip pump mechanism is what I conjured up. (Forestock pumps don't work out for firing prone.) It allows cycling the action while not moving the hand up and down and also helps keep the rifle close to on target during cycling. Started thinking about this when Forgotten Weapons showed a shotgun with a pump slide behind the trigger. (No pistol grip.) This was invented to get around the patent that Winchester held on the conventional slide at the time. Of course a shotgun mechanism can't simply be put into a full-sized rifle.
I was imagining a WW1 era weapon that allowed a rate of fire similar to a Garand. With a 10 round box magazine (think SMLE, stripper clips) it would work well and when a large volume of fire was needed a squad could really put it out. A quasi-full-auto selection would be enabled by allowing it to fire with each pump, no need to pull the trigger.
It's really interesting how many people get similar ideas. I mean if one knows a bit about firearms, there is definitely certain guidelines as to how to design one because of existing designs, yet the magic of the actual profession is (or rather was, at least a lot more prominenly) thinking outside of the box.
The real deal however comes when people with great ideas have the capabilities to get their designs built, known, tested and improved. Sadly not many people can do this but if they did, i bet we'd see a lot more of interesting designs. That's why i absolutely love Ian McCollum and Johnathan Ferguson because they understand the entire process of firearms development throughout history AND have access to many many designs unknown to even the average firearms enthusiast.
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that i also thought of a pistol grip pump action rifle when I was younger and in my head this is exactly what it would look like 😅
@@capturedflame Sorta kinda.
Unfortunately Fort Halstead has now closed, with the MOD (Dstl) officially leaving and locking the gates on 14 October 2022. Various private/commercial firms and housing development will wash away the MOD's hundred years plus of development work on site......
Stocks were figured out about 500 years ago.
this thing is fantastic, unfortunately feels like quite a complicated solution to a pretty simple problem.
Personally i'd refer to this as a grip repeater more than a pump action
Were there bolt actions that allowed u to cycle the action without forcing u to break cheek weld??
someone tell me what the 2 rifles bottom left in the screen are with the sling tacks on the bottom..... odd to see in the royal armouries
there are too many adjectives in that description
Clever idea! Only ever seen something similar but that was on an LMG where the pistol grip racked the first round. As for the cheek touching that metal cover, a rubber cover or leather glued over it would solve that, even the game model you showed has it covered with a wide canvas cover that would work too.
I don't think it's an accident that the LMGs you'll see using the system are from Czechoslovakia (and their derivatives, like the Finnish KVKK 62)
At least we can blame the Czechs for that one.
This weapon would perfectly fit into a Star wars movie. I imagine it as a balster-desintegrator hybrid (sniper)rifle which ejects the "round" of the desintegrator ammo and would fire without reload blasters (a.k.a. lasers).
Did I miss where the magazine is located, how many rounds, etc. ?
The experimental Winchester G30M and related prototypes have a bolt that drops into the wrist of the stock. Also the Benelli MR-1 rifle and M4 Super 90 shotgun have a bolt extension that rides down into the stock to engage the recoil spring. Does that count?
Way to much going on within the trigger guard to be safe.
I didn't catch where the rounds are stored, single shot maybe?