Why did Britain turn its Pattern 1853 rifle into a musket? With firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson

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  • Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
  • Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857-58, Britain was intent on preventing a repeat of its own Indian Sepoy troops rising up and fighting against British forces. One solution to this was to effectively 'nerf' the weapons they were issued. This India Pattern Musket is the product of the distrust that existed in colonial India at this time.
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 224

  • @18robsmith
    @18robsmith 2 роки тому +117

    Fascinating how three guns can say so much about social attitudes more than 150 years ago.

    • @036JH
      @036JH 2 роки тому +15

      Favorite reason why I watch Jonathan, and Forgotten Weapons and Inrange. Describing the circumstances under which these weapons were developed is a fascinating window into the social, technological, political, and economical positions these countries were in.

    • @leadpaintchips9461
      @leadpaintchips9461 2 роки тому +7

      @@036JH It's a major part of why I'm interested in military history, specifically the weaponry used. There's only so much spin you can put on how weapons are.

    • @slaughterround643
      @slaughterround643 2 роки тому

      You say that like we don't dominate parts of the world now like we did then.

    • @coltonregal1797
      @coltonregal1797 Рік тому +3

      It's not really a social attitude, just a practical one. Reaming out the bore both provides a deterrent/disadvantage for a future mutiny, and solves the issue of cartridges greased with hog/beef fat by removing the need for grease altogether.

    • @renngretsch
      @renngretsch Рік тому +2

      Well I was not around over 150 years ago, but if I had been and there were people that I would have thought of as friendly, but it turned out that amongst them were a few that would have my wife and kids hacked at and thrown in a well to die, then I think going them a lesser weapon for when they face the vengeance is a very good idea.

  • @fire_tower
    @fire_tower 2 роки тому +16

    14:12
    "Echos of an Empire" would make a great name for a book on colonial arms

  • @felixthecat265
    @felixthecat265 2 роки тому +51

    Just for the record, the issuing of smoothbore versions of military rifles was continued in India even after independance. The arsenals were producing smoothbore .303 in .410 shotgun (which has the same base diamater as the .303) until fairly recently.
    They were typically used by Police, prison guard and security escorts who needed to be armed, but did not need the collateral damage of a full Ball round...

    • @KeyserSoze23
      @KeyserSoze23 Рік тому +1

      seems stupid really. A smooth bore will cause as much damage as a rifled round more or less just less accurate.

    • @GaiusCaligula234
      @GaiusCaligula234 Рік тому

      @@KeyserSoze23 Less overpen, lad

    • @felixthecat265
      @felixthecat265 Рік тому +3

      @@KeyserSoze23 Not stupid at all. A smoothbore version of a miltiary rifle looks the same as a rifled version, and therefore is just as much of a threat to a potential agressor. It has however a significantly reduced range and is easy to defeat with rifled arms should the user decide to switch sides or have their gun stolen.

    • @marmite8959
      @marmite8959 Рік тому

      ​@@KeyserSoze23 a .410 shotgun blast will cause significantly less damage than .303 FMJ

    • @Mulberry2000
      @Mulberry2000 8 місяців тому

      no it was not with a rifle you have better range, which gave British troops fair better accuracy over a musket armed troop.

  • @peoplesauce
    @peoplesauce 2 роки тому +3

    I can't believe Johnathan personally nailed all those little metal placards onto all of those priceless relics D:

  • @bladesofseven
    @bladesofseven 2 роки тому +29

    A Jonathan video a day keeps the insanity at bay :D

  • @Waldymachine
    @Waldymachine 2 роки тому +33

    Aaaah! here's me thinking I bought a "lemon" parts gun that was thrown together to resemble the real thing, turns out it's one of the smoothbore models issued to domestic troops! Thank you for sharing Jonathan, you've just cleared up one of the more confusing items in the collection. More interesting story to it than having an example of the issued rifle! Keep up the great content!

    • @steriskyline4470
      @steriskyline4470 2 роки тому

      Lovely piece of historical gear you have there! Congrats

  • @dylancarson5641
    @dylancarson5641 2 роки тому +10

    "Echos of empire" sounds like a game or book title .

  • @austinwild6723
    @austinwild6723 2 роки тому +4

    As a Canadian who just graduated his Master's Degree in History at Queen's University, I would VERY much do anything in order to become an intern at Royal Armouries Museum. You are a treat for historical knowledge Mr Ferguson!

  • @Payne427
    @Payne427 2 роки тому +4

    I loved how Johnathan says "Absolutely Horrendous". Love the videos good sir. Keep it up

  • @ManchuArrowLauncher
    @ManchuArrowLauncher 2 роки тому +11

    Adjustable butt length is a great name for a band

    • @Stevarooni
      @Stevarooni 2 роки тому +1

      Or a BBQ restaurant.

    • @rootsandvulture
      @rootsandvulture 2 роки тому +1

      Or a....or a.......nope can't think of anything

    • @Stevarooni
      @Stevarooni 2 роки тому +3

      @@rootsandvulture A bespoke dress shop? 😁

    • @loddude5706
      @loddude5706 2 роки тому +3

      Ivor Longbottom's stage name . . .

  • @colonelsanders104
    @colonelsanders104 2 роки тому +8

    With approved cartridges without pork grease.
    Guarented Sepoy approved since 1857. :)

    • @calvingreene90
      @calvingreene90 2 роки тому +1

      Some Sepoy were Hindu so beef tallow was as bad or worse than lard.

    • @Ukraineaissance2014
      @Ukraineaissance2014 2 роки тому +1

      They were believed to originally be greased with pig and cow fat. Thiugh this wasnt true it offended both the hindu and muslim soldiers.

  • @derekp2674
    @derekp2674 2 роки тому +12

    Thanks Jonathan and team. It was really great to see those sealed patterns and learn about their history. Long ago, I was lucky enough to fire a few shots with an 1853 and it was definitely a fun experience.

  • @julianshepherd2038
    @julianshepherd2038 2 роки тому +5

    If you can get a tiny torch and drop it down the spout then it would show the rifling beautifully.

    • @iainbagnall4825
      @iainbagnall4825 2 роки тому

      or just use an illuminated USB bore scope, which costs less than $20

  • @lindybeige
    @lindybeige 2 роки тому +41

    What I have read tells me that while it was true that there was a rumour that the cartridges that triggered the Indian Mutiny were greased with animal fat, in actuality the cartridges were waxed. Can you cite a source that demonstrates that they were greased?

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому +40

      There were a whole host of Ordnance trials with a wax/tallow mix in various proportions. Eventually, some time into the rifle’s service, they settled on pure white beeswax alone. Wax and tallow had been the standard for rifles since the first Pattern rifle of 1776. In India contractors provided the animal fat to mix with beeswax but insufficient care was taken that they avoided beef or pork fats. Brunswicks were wax and tallow then changed to wax and linseed oil but the fire risk caused a final change to wax and coconut oil. Pattern 1853s, as above went to pure wax. In the post Mutiny investigations it was admitted that the cartridge greasing could have included beef and/or pork fats in error. The mutineers period charge that it was a deliberate action to break their caste status and change to Christianity was completely wrong. Always believe cock up before conspiracy is a sound precept even today.

    • @robertstallard7836
      @robertstallard7836 2 роки тому +2

      @@johnfisk811 Really good explanation. Agree 100%!

    • @steriskyline4470
      @steriskyline4470 2 роки тому +1

      Any news on your friend in Ukraine?

    • @scrappydoo7887
      @scrappydoo7887 2 роки тому

      @@johnfisk811 excellent information 👍 thanks

    • @samparkerSAM
      @samparkerSAM 8 місяців тому

      The P53 was the very first gun I ever fired, in Tennessee of all places. I was elected by my fellow cabin mates at summer camp on account of my archery 🏹 skills.
      It was a foggy morning in a hilly valley and I was invited to eat breakfast with the confedrate reenactors, they shared salt pork and grits. Afterwards we assembled on the lake side and attempted to shoot milk jugs dressed as turkeys at 75 yards... I surprisingly shot close and hit the wooden dock... the built put a hole through the 2" oak board bellow the intended target.
      For years I would swim across the lake and pry at the oak dock and plumb the depths around the piers looking for the mini balls fired that morning.

  • @rossflowers7038
    @rossflowers7038 2 роки тому +10

    Great presentation. Love the sealed patterns

  • @gitfoad8032
    @gitfoad8032 2 роки тому +2

    Why would you remove the number plate when it's part of the palimpsest? Isn't that every bit as bad as nailing it on in the first place? It's like all the German made roof tiles in Dubrovnik from the repairs after their war, a layer of history.

  • @PURPLECATDUDE7734
    @PURPLECATDUDE7734 2 роки тому +4

    Your presentation style has tremendously improved over time

    • @bigmal1690
      @bigmal1690 2 роки тому

      Yeah, he's got more used to it, I enjoy them very much but we all the the main star here are the guns, who here would not love to get a look around that place?

  • @matthaught4707
    @matthaught4707 2 роки тому +3

    "Clout" is a verb that isn't used nearly enough anymore.

  • @tjoyce1971
    @tjoyce1971 2 роки тому +20

    Hi Jonathan, you're awesome. I had a thought regarding the Irish Constabulary carbine, is it possible they left it smooth bore to give them the option of loading birdshot as a less lethal load? I believe I remember reading somewhere about Victorian police dispersing a crowd with birdshot.

    • @briankelly8297
      @briankelly8297 2 роки тому +2

      I'm guessing a smooth bore can be loaded slightly quicker than a rifled barrel. That might add an advantage under pressure.

    • @grahambamford9073
      @grahambamford9073 2 роки тому

      A lot of RIC barracks were raided for there weapons back in the day. It wasn't uncommon for this to happen.

    • @borjesvensson8661
      @borjesvensson8661 2 роки тому +3

      @@briankelly8297 that was the problem with rifled guns up till the minie bullet was invented. Loading a minie ball into a rifle should take the same time as a smoothbore.

  • @TheIrishGamerGuy
    @TheIrishGamerGuy 2 роки тому +3

    This museum is on my bucket list.
    Used to love going to the Imperial War Museum in London as a kid and I never had the chance to go to Leeds. I now have a pretty good reason to XD

  • @michaeltelson9798
    @michaeltelson9798 Рік тому +1

    I am fan of the Alan Quartermain series and wonder if you can do a video of the rifle from the first two books which was the actual only named gun in the series. A J. Purdy fowling piece with a single octagonal Barrel, quarter inch bore for percussion cap, 1835. Nipple for copper percussion caps weighing 5 lbs. 3 ounces

  • @paulbarthol8372
    @paulbarthol8372 Рік тому

    The nailed on number tag is part of history; museum curating history. Like the seals and inscriptions, it is every part as important as part of that weapon. If you were going for pristine condition then you would remove the seals too.

  • @random22026
    @random22026 Рік тому

    Incredible. Your transparent, informative mini-lecture on this weaponry is absolutely essential viewing. Kudos. 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌👏👏👏👏👏

  • @hedgeearthridge6807
    @hedgeearthridge6807 2 роки тому +14

    It's rather typical of the state, sadly, to make sure they always have the superior weaponry to their subjects, to prevent rebellion to oppression. But on a positive note, this rebellion had a lot to do with protecting the Caste system, and now in modern India the people are fighting (socially and ethically) to fully eliminate the Caste system, especially as the politicians try to leverage it for power. A lot has changed in the last sub-200 years, and overall it's changed for the better!

    • @scrappydoo7887
      @scrappydoo7887 2 роки тому

      Lol 🤣 it's common sense.

    • @TheHenirik
      @TheHenirik 2 роки тому +3

      this is still done today though, export versions of all kinds of military equipment are missing features from the domestic versions

  • @peterclarke7240
    @peterclarke7240 2 роки тому +31

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that, during the mass demobbing of soldiers following the end of WW1, the British government, fearful of all these military-trained working-class types coming ashore at the UK docks, that the guns of the naval boat were turned towards the docks in case of an insurrection.
    No idea if this is true, but if it is, it speaks volumes about how the British government KNEW they treated the very people they expected to die for their country like shit, but rather than change that, they'd rather kill them.
    Nothing much changes, either.

    • @MrDrboomstick
      @MrDrboomstick 2 роки тому +5

      its true as faras chruchill pointed gunboats at striking transport workers in Liverpool. Also sent troops in that killed people. same old british establishment.

    • @Chiller01
      @Chiller01 2 роки тому +24

      Not to worry Herbert Hoover sent the US Army, commanded by Douglas MacArthur, against a demonstration of largely WW1 veterans protesting the delayed payment of a bonus promised to them some 8 years previous. The ingratitude of governments toward combat veterans is not confined to England.

    • @luisnunes3863
      @luisnunes3863 2 роки тому +5

      If anything, it's gotten worse recently, right?

    • @Nattleby
      @Nattleby 2 роки тому +1

      @@Chiller01 My great grandfather (see profile pic) was in the bonus army…

    • @Chiller01
      @Chiller01 2 роки тому

      @@Nattleby wow!

  • @EddietheBastard
    @EddietheBastard 2 роки тому

    Absolutely superb - historical context, practical explanation, not too patronising of those not well versed in weapons or history.

  • @paulrward
    @paulrward 5 місяців тому

    And this is why so many people all over the world love the British
    so much.......

  • @afuea-qg5yo
    @afuea-qg5yo 2 роки тому

    shit has some sick iron sights

  • @George_M_
    @George_M_ 2 роки тому +4

    The export T-72, rifle version.

  • @toddmoss1689
    @toddmoss1689 2 роки тому +1

    Thank you Jonathan for another fascinating and thoroughly researched presentation. My bucket list includes visiting the Leeds museum along with catching a Leeds United football match. Can you sometime in the future talk about the Enfield P53’s export and use in other conflicts, including the American Civil War where it was widely used.

  • @grahamhatton3201
    @grahamhatton3201 Рік тому

    I have an 1856 dated example that was smooth bored for native usage. It retains the original back sight.

    • @kaisersoze5236
      @kaisersoze5236 4 місяці тому +1

      i have an 1855 rifle bored on my wall 👌

  • @samparkerSAM
    @samparkerSAM 8 місяців тому

    Got a American Cousin! A P53 type 2 1855 Windsor Enfield ... the contract version made in Vermont, America, with confedrate import markings. Thank You for The book recommendation 😀

  • @hobartw9770
    @hobartw9770 2 роки тому

    Beautiful pieces maybe I can get over there someday soon.

  • @TJH1
    @TJH1 2 роки тому +1

    Wasn't a link to the thesis mentioned in the video going to be posted, please?

  • @rasmussrensen2029
    @rasmussrensen2029 2 роки тому +1

    Love this. I will be sure to visit the museum if go to the UK! ❤️

  • @jimbevington420
    @jimbevington420 2 роки тому +1

    Please dont remove the nailled on number disc's. Its history. It may not be right but its happened; all it needs is explaining. Future generations will thank you.

  • @krockpotbroccoli65
    @krockpotbroccoli65 2 роки тому +6

    I've got a minty, fully restored (by me) P41 Brunswick musket from Nepal (it is most certainly of English manudacture. I guess that the garbage powder they were using made the Brunswick rifles useless, so they just reamed the rifling out of the bores.

  • @broadstken
    @broadstken 2 роки тому +2

    I have one of the Nepalese made P-53's it has the proper ladder rear sight and the P-53 front sight but is also smoothbore. I assumed for the same reasons. Mine was issued to "Rifle Battalion, fourth section" and was gun no. 36 in their inventory according to the inscription on the trigger guard, and is serial number 296, so apparently very early production. If you have any of these in your collection I'd be interested to know more of their official history

    • @borjesvensson8661
      @borjesvensson8661 2 роки тому

      Could it have been bored out after the bore got worn out?

    • @broadstken
      @broadstken 2 роки тому

      @@borjesvensson8661 No, the bore diameter is correct, they were deliberately not rifled

  • @danditto6145
    @danditto6145 2 місяці тому

    The Royal Irish Constabulary. Carbines are probably smoothbore, so they could be used with Buck and ball ammunition, which would be more effective with a mob and they would be used at less than 100 yards as there is no need to shoot 1,000 yards at a wagon train or large square of men in Ireland enforcing the law. It also opens up. The possibility of being able to use small birdshot on no -violent protestors.
    The U.S. had the same problem in the Phillipines and found smoothbore shotguns were liked and requested by their local constabulary.

  • @Squarecycle_
    @Squarecycle_ 2 місяці тому

    Is there a website where I could learn more about the 'brown bess' India pattern musket?
    I have a 1804 musket marked with EIC heart and Mortimer on the lock. I would really want to know where could it be used and by who.
    Thank you.
    Great video btw 👍

  • @corogast
    @corogast 2 роки тому

    I always love learning new things from ya, Jonathan! :D

  • @chrisball3778
    @chrisball3778 2 роки тому +8

    That's the problem with being a huge, oppressive Empire- eventually you have to rely on paying people with no inherent loyalty to you to subjugate their compatriots- always a terrible idea. The British Army also nerfed their artillery a short while after this. During the Second Opium War (1856-60) they tried out a new cannon design- the rifled, breech-loading 'Armstrong gun'. It turned out to be excellent and way ahead of anything anyone else was using. It was also very expensive, so in 1865 the army canned it and went back to using muzzle-loaders, which they stuck with until the 1880's.

    • @Balrog2005
      @Balrog2005 2 роки тому +1

      About the Armstrong gun it is more complicated. IIRC there was a commission and the results were that the traditional artillery of the time, muzzle-loading, was more effective in some areas (the Armstrong were very precise but less powerful or useful with shrapnell rounds) and less costly in training and logistics. A part from that the naval Armstrong guns did not have a good penetration. So overall it was not only the cost.

    • @morriganmhor5078
      @morriganmhor5078 2 роки тому +1

      You´re kidding. Most of the Indian continent didn´t go into the Mutiny and even then mostly Muslims under their nobles (those were conquering the same continent from 11 to 17th century and their toll of deads of Hindus was much higher).

    • @ZechsMerquise73
      @ZechsMerquise73 2 роки тому

      @@morriganmhor5078 Right, because Muslims were offended by cow fat? It's a testament to how hated the British were in the North that Hindus and Muslims joined forces.
      You're the one who's kidding. 800,000 Indians perished in the war.

    • @morriganmhor5078
      @morriganmhor5078 2 роки тому

      @@ZechsMerquise73 And those numbers you got where? Even those killed in all the battles and sieges of 1856-1858 and those who died of various diseases make about 10% of that sum.

    • @justicar5
      @justicar5 2 роки тому

      @@morriganmhor5078 the first attack by a soldier on an officer was by Mangal Pandey, a Hindu, it was the rumour that the cartridges contained cow and pig fat. The first open and organised uprising was in Uttar Pradesh, in the city of Meerut (again mainly Hindu at the time)

  • @SafetyProMalta
    @SafetyProMalta 2 роки тому

    What a beauty..that P53

  • @glynwelshkarelian3489
    @glynwelshkarelian3489 2 роки тому

    03.05 Use of the English term 'Clout'. A splendidly deep word for the act of hitting something (or someone) with force and resonance.

  • @CaersethVarax
    @CaersethVarax 2 роки тому

    "Come and see us"
    Say no more, fam.
    *Arrives in Leeds*

  • @calvingreene90
    @calvingreene90 2 роки тому +2

    Now all is needed is rifled slugs to bring it full circle.

  • @TrainmanDan
    @TrainmanDan 2 роки тому

    I once owned an ex-museum owned Snider that had their inventory number stamped into the butt. The stamping was not small either! Cheers, Dan.

  • @brendan1789
    @brendan1789 Рік тому

    The thesis was not left in the description. RIP.

  • @pudgeboyardee32
    @pudgeboyardee32 2 роки тому +1

    I have used .656 reams in modern machine work settings and i can tell you that reaming a barrel like that wouldve been expensive in the extreme. A modern ream that size can easily cost $1000 and is a bastard to sharpen, which its going to need every 3,000 to 5,000 barrels. My guess is the reaming operation basically doubled the back end production costs but thats a rough guess and im not familiar with tooling of the specific time period. But you also need high pressure oil pumps and power to drive the ream so double the cost in tooling and maintenance might be on the low side, its hard to say.

    • @scrappydoo7887
      @scrappydoo7887 2 роки тому +1

      I think you are probably the only one here who has a truly intelligent take in the comments.

    • @bebo4374
      @bebo4374 2 роки тому

      No. I’m wicked smart.

  • @justacentrist4147
    @justacentrist4147 Рік тому

    You should leave the museum numbers in place. it's part of the guns history

  • @archer8492
    @archer8492 2 роки тому

    Very interesting. I know sod all about pre-WWI firearms so I'm always happy for you make more vids on the stuff you have from earlier eras.

  • @tommythearchaeologist
    @tommythearchaeologist 2 роки тому

    Shout out to editor Jack getting his dig on yesterday doing some archaeology! 🤘😉

  • @NERVNOTO
    @NERVNOTO 2 роки тому

    mr.johnatan....i don't think you should fell awkward talking about your(british) colonial/imperial past.....we love watching your presentations down here in Macedonia even though your country (NATO) bombed us some 22 years ago....greatings from Yugoslavia

  • @parrotraiser6541
    @parrotraiser6541 2 роки тому

    Interesting point some of the other commentators have made about shot loads. Paradoxically, rifling plays havoc with shot patterms, because the centrifugal force tends to fling the shot cloud apart in random directions. Anything you hit will be by chance, and very close.

  • @glynwelshkarelian3489
    @glynwelshkarelian3489 2 роки тому

    Any nailed, painted, or engraved, on museum mark is a mark of the historiography of the object. I have been trying to find out where Liverpool Museum's Mauser collection of 1961 went. It would be easier to find why '42' is the answer to everything.

  • @julianmhall
    @julianmhall 2 роки тому +1

    Why did they reinvent the wheel? Instead of removing the rifling making the bore wider, why not just go back to the /already proven/ smooth bore design of older muskets?

    • @underpaidmook
      @underpaidmook 2 роки тому

      I guess since they already sent the rifles over there; might as well reuse them but "nerf" them

    • @thomasbaagaard
      @thomasbaagaard 2 роки тому

      The weapons had already been produced. So the fastest and cheapest way to make them less effective weapons was to rebore the barrels.
      After that the 2nd version where new guns with had the same barrels as the P1853... but the actual action of rifling the barrel was simply not done.

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому

      They were set up to make Pattern 1853s so it was both cheaper to make a version and it used many of the same parts which helped maintenance etc. easier. Also the 0,656” cartridge used less powder and lead so was cheaper. Not a small matter when you are literally making them by the million.

  • @TheDave570
    @TheDave570 11 місяців тому

    THey did make a P=53 smooth bore. For forage...

  • @rcfokker1630
    @rcfokker1630 2 роки тому +3

    You said that the rifling was very shallow ... but .656 is two millimetres larger than .577. So, it seems that the chosen bore of the Indian' Rifle is not simply the consequence of removing the rifling.

    • @asorbus1966
      @asorbus1966 2 роки тому

      Reaming the bore to use a special, larger diameter cartridge is one of those bureacratic ideas that must have seemed better in theory than in actual practice. Having two different service cartridges to supply in far off India almost certainly resulted in the simplification of one bore, same cartridge solving the problem. The simplfied front sight on the P59 Musket also shows someone was thinking realisticly about how the guns were meant to be used: Volley fire by groups of men at short range.

    • @pudgeboyardee32
      @pudgeboyardee32 2 роки тому +1

      Using a ream, especially on long boring operations, requires a minimum amount of material removed that is larger than the tapered lead of the ream. If you try to ream less material out the tool will chatter, damaging the tool and the bore. The rifling actually makes it necessary to remove more material than you might otherwise have to because the difference in material depth, and therefore resistance, will make the chatter problem worse.
      Basically, the ream needs that millimeter of 'bite' on each side to run smoothly and not damage the barrel or the tools in use.
      I used to do drilling, boring, reaming and honing professionally and i very often used .577 drills to set up for a .656 ream operation. Its very standard, no pun intended.

  • @pauldeen4785
    @pauldeen4785 Рік тому

    Was the rifling of the P53 always 1:76 ? or has there been experimental rifling 1: 48 ?

  • @13infbatt
    @13infbatt 2 роки тому

    I have a .410 Isaphore Converted from a SMLE, I also have a box of a crimped .303 case with ball.
    Used by constabulary and prison guards .
    Still used today.

    • @felixthecat265
      @felixthecat265 2 роки тому

      Not necessiarily converted.. many were made as smoothbore from the get go..

  • @cosmo9882
    @cosmo9882 2 роки тому

    Sorted, thank you

  • @mikewilson631
    @mikewilson631 2 роки тому +1

    Interesting stuff. Do you have the link to the thesis?

  • @Chiller01
    @Chiller01 2 роки тому

    Those are amazing pieces.

  • @Tensquaremetreworkshop
    @Tensquaremetreworkshop Рік тому

    I have one of the P58s - but it is stamped (rather poorly) '1820' and underneath 'TOWER' on the lockplate, with a crown to the rear. No sign of it being a re-used lockplate - any ideas?

  • @jonc4403
    @jonc4403 2 роки тому +1

    I have a 1863 Springfield that's been 'sporterized' into a shotgun. The rifling has been removed, and the stock has been cut down to make it lighter. It was apparently a fairly common modification after the Civil War. It wasn't done to 'nerf' the rifle, but to make it more suitable for hunting small animals.

    • @johnstacy7902
      @johnstacy7902 2 роки тому

      For a farmer a shotgun is far more useful. I've shot birds with the breach loader version of these

  • @geppogeppo8545
    @geppogeppo8545 2 роки тому

    On the barrel of my 3-band P53 riled, Tower 1857, is engraved "YEOMANS". Do you know anything? The stock is like Windsor with flat springs for the bands, but all the brands are English. 1 K thanks. Ciao da Milano

  • @brilliantmonarch
    @brilliantmonarch 2 роки тому +1

    Is "nerf" now in the historical lexicon? :P

  • @chrisproost7290
    @chrisproost7290 Рік тому

    Just an idle question here if anybody cares to answer but... is there anything to the idea of the P59 easing supply by using the same calibre as the P53? I'll assume the former can use the same round just without making use of the expansion into the rifling (though, also my assumption, it would expand to fit the bore better than past smoothbores and eliminate windage somewhat...?)
    Anyway, just a thought, and great vid as always. Despite (as a Brit) having no firearms experience outside of handling a few at Armed Forces shows ages ago, I find the history and development of firearms, as well as the wars they fought, fascinating.

  • @keithkyle2371
    @keithkyle2371 Рік тому

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would like to see some documentation about the rifles that were sold by Great Britain to both sides of the American Civil War. A number of gun makers in and around London provided weapons to both sides. They appear to be a Pattern 1853, a rifled musket With a better rear sight configuration. Comments please.

    • @robertstallard7836
      @robertstallard7836 Рік тому

      I can't provide documentation, I'm afraid, but the "go-to" expert in the 1853 and its derivatives (Peter Smithurst) states that around a million were exported to both sides by the private arms trade in London, Birmingham and Liege. Many were assembled from parts that, although serviceable, had been sold out of store by the government as worn or obsolete. Some had refurbished stocks, some new. It was basically a right old mish-mash and an opportunity to use up all the spare parts that were hanging around, as well as many rifles sold off by the military, the parts of which could be refurbished and reassembled. Completely new rifles were, of course, made as well.
      They are therefore not true 1853 Enfields, even though they may look identical, because they were no longer part of the British military service with its rigorous inspection routines and were not supplied by the Government. It's not dissimilar to the huge number of prvately-made P53-esque rifles made for the British Volunteer Movement. They had to conform by way of calibre etc, but the individual could choose their own refinements such as type of wood used, chequering, engraving, quality of the lock, and even rifling (such as many being made as Lancaster Bore).
      It wouldn't be any surprise if a batch was ordered by some colonel or other for his men, requesting modified sights as you describe.

  • @davidwoodvine3491
    @davidwoodvine3491 2 роки тому +3

    Hi Jonathan , very interesting stuff . I have an 1860 India pattern short musket , 2 brass bands , no bayonet lug . Would i be correct in thinking that it would possibly be a navy issue due to the extra brass & absence of bayonet lug ? . Do i have something quite rare as i think India had only a small navy ?

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому +1

      Brass bands? Issue were all blued steel. One Italian repro company (Armisport) did some with brass bands in the 1970s.

    • @davidwoodvine3491
      @davidwoodvine3491 2 роки тому

      @@johnfisk811
      Hi John , thanks for the info . Im pretty sure its not a reproduction . It has a arsenal number stamped in the stock & dated 1860 on the barrel + serial number . There are some markings on a hexagonal tapered breach which is attached to the round barrel . The 1858 smooth bores didn't have the hexagonal breach & were prone to splitting the barrel , or so im informed . There are no British proof marks on the ones that were assembled in in India , just a crown on the lock plate . The lock plate on mine says in distinctly India , a bit of wear there . It has been well used as the scorching to the stock tells me . Brass butt plate & bands , usually reserved for navy so they dont rust onto the barrel . They did assemble some in India after the Sepoy mutiny using the original p53 barrel bored out to 656 cal . The ram rods were made in india , just a fixed rear sight . I will definitely check the idea that it could be a reproduction , thanks for the reply . Any info gratefully recieved .

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому +1

      @@davidwoodvine3491 obviously I cannot comment usefully further without seeing photographs of the beast but I do note that period reproductions in smoothbore were commonly made in India for local use for civilian use and for princely states police and army uses. The Afridi made ‘khyber’ copies are better known but copies and near copies were made across India. The Pattern 1853 etc. were the ‘cool’ item of the day. Much as Lee Enfield and AK47s were in later times.

    • @davidwoodvine3491
      @davidwoodvine3491 2 роки тому

      @@johnfisk811
      Thanks for the info John , ive checked out Armi sport , it does differ from their reproductions , in several ways , they do have spares for the Enfield which is handy to know as im missing a barrel tang screw . Seems that there was quite a family of the enfield muskets / rifles . I will try & add a clip some time soon . Regards Dave

  • @cohort6159
    @cohort6159 Рік тому

    Was the .577 smoothbore ammo also of the Minnie pattern? Or was that also changed because of the cartridge lubricant issue?

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 Рік тому

      Round ball in a paper cartridge in the same style as Brown Bess. Essentially the carbine bore cartridge as used in carbines since the 17th century. No lubricant was involved.

  • @alanlawson4180
    @alanlawson4180 2 роки тому +1

    Hence, possibly, the term "Top Notch" for anything really higher or better than anything else?

    • @denisripley8699
      @denisripley8699 2 роки тому +1

      ... just as long as it wasn't 'taken down a peg, or two'.

    • @alanlawson4180
      @alanlawson4180 2 роки тому

      @@denisripley8699 And as this is an India Pattern, that would be a chota Peg of course :)

  • @andreweden9405
    @andreweden9405 Рік тому

    If you know the details about what transpired during the Sepoy Rebellion, you wouldn't blame the British for taking such measures. They also relieved the Company of its authority in the Subcontinent. If the Indians want different guns, let them make their own!

  • @beachboy0505
    @beachboy0505 Рік тому

    Excellent video 📹
    ....so in the 1850'a, the Irish were lumped in with the Indians as unreliable.
    The main reason the Indian Mutiny/insurrection failed was because the Sikh regiments were absolutely loyal to the East India Company.

  • @calvingreene90
    @calvingreene90 2 роки тому +24

    And it all could have been avoided if the British officers would have been smart enough when questioned by the troops whether Muslim or Hindu about the grease on the cartridges to say "Mutton."

    • @Ukraineaissance2014
      @Ukraineaissance2014 2 роки тому

      Well it's nowhere near as simple as that

    • @calvingreene90
      @calvingreene90 2 роки тому +8

      @@Ukraineaissance2014
      There was a lot of grumbling unhappiness but it it all came to a head because of the religious significance of the grease used. The Muslims were not opposed to killing pigs but biting pig fat coated paper was a great affront unto Allah. Harming cows was a greater affront to the Hindu. If the would have taken their concerns seriously, went through the motions an then assured them that it was mutton grease it probably would not come to a head.

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому +1

      @@calvingreene90 Except they had been loading Brunswicks with greased patches for years, they were offered the opportunity to make their own cartridges and mutineers used Pattern 1858 production greased cartridges when they could. The story was a trigger to set off long standing pre existing tensions within the army of one of the three Presidencies in India Sloppy control of suppliers meant that indeed the mutineers were correct. But by cock up not conspiracy of the authorities. The actual causes were down to a culture of poor management by their officers and clumsy politics by the Company.

    • @calvingreene90
      @calvingreene90 2 роки тому +1

      @@johnfisk811
      Which brings us back to if the officers would have been smart enough to at least act like they cared and assure them that mutton grease was specified in the contract the mutiny would probably have been avoided.
      If the officers had been smart enough to do that they would also been smart enough to defuse other problems as well but you can go a long way with a lot of discontent if you avoid key issues such as violating their religion.

    • @borjesvensson8661
      @borjesvensson8661 2 роки тому

      Ever heard the rumor about (insert celebrity here) removing ribs or the one about rat in the pizza? No matter how mutch prof there is it is hard to stop rumors once they start rolling. All it takes is one sailor mentioning to a sepoy that he uses lard or pork fat to grease rifle bullets and the rumor mill is off.

  • @villyvassell8572
    @villyvassell8572 2 роки тому

    Sepoy Musket was the correct name l.had one for American civil war reenactment,

  • @barbarossarotbart
    @barbarossarotbart 2 роки тому +6

    If you issue outdated weapons to your (native) troops because you fear an insurrection, then you clearly have a disadvantage if an invasion happens and the invader gave his (native) troops up-to-date weapons or you send those troops against rebels who were supplied with up-to-date weapons.

    • @Skyfox94
      @Skyfox94 2 роки тому +3

      One would imagine that, in case of an invasion they'd give little shit about the local garrison. They'd be little more than cannon fodder until the proper army arrives.

    • @Dogbertious
      @Dogbertious 2 роки тому +7

      In the case of India, the concern was never really invasion by another power. It was largely about keeping the local population (noble or otherwise) in check.

    • @Ukraineaissance2014
      @Ukraineaissance2014 2 роки тому +6

      There was basically no chance of another technologically equal european power invading India, the sepoys were there for internal security and fighting various tribes, political factions and religious groups.

    • @barbarossarotbart
      @barbarossarotbart 2 роки тому

      @@Dogbertious But what if one of Britain's rivals thought that it was a good idea to support rebels and to supply them with modern weapons?

    • @underpaidmook
      @underpaidmook 2 роки тому +1

      @@barbarossarotbart Well, firstly; they need to send a large fleet to get enough supplies for a major insurrection...which of course would run right into the Royal Navy.

  • @johjoh978
    @johjoh978 2 роки тому

    lets put them at a disadvantage with a higher rate of fire and a larger projectile

  • @jothegreek
    @jothegreek 2 роки тому

    Amazing

  • @bendyer551
    @bendyer551 Рік тому

    very interesting

  • @benmurphy5203
    @benmurphy5203 2 роки тому

    Ever going to do an armoury tour?

  • @Cheshire9k
    @Cheshire9k 2 роки тому

    Anyone got any idea what is the first rifle on the rack on the right side of the screen?

  • @SamuraiHonor
    @SamuraiHonor 2 роки тому

    Simple history has a nice little video about the conflict mentioned
    "This type of bullet causes an entire uprising"

  • @yam83
    @yam83 Рік тому

    This is crazy.

  • @greyfells2829
    @greyfells2829 2 роки тому

    Now I really want to put wax seals on my guns, what a strangely pleasing detail

  • @thesykotikone
    @thesykotikone 2 роки тому

    Hi mate... Can you do a video on the weapons used during the New Zealand/Maori Wars. Chur!

  • @gerrypowell2748
    @gerrypowell2748 2 роки тому

    Interesting video👌

  • @andrewince8824
    @andrewince8824 2 роки тому +2

    To further "nerf" the weapon the British could have reduced the caliber. This works threefold. A smaller bore would mean a British soldier could pick up and patch Indian ammo to use in his arm however the Indians couldn't do the same.
    A smaller bore means lighter bullets, now, back in the black powder days a round was limited to about 1500fps. You could put a cannon charge behind a .577 ball and it'd barely creep beyond that 1500fps, really interesting feature of the propellant. As such the Indian guns would have reduced power and therefore a further reduction in range. The final reason it works is because these rounds need to be shoved down the bore. In the heat of combat it'd be even harder to load the weapon. A study from the US after WW2 concluded at the cost of a few $million that the more rounds you shoot at something, the more likely you are to hit that thing. Obviously reducing the enemy ROF gives you an edge in this regard.

  • @paulancill3872
    @paulancill3872 2 роки тому

    Did they convert smooth bore P58/9 S to Sniders?

  • @asorbus1966
    @asorbus1966 2 роки тому +2

    Fascinating video though a bit sad to think that the vast collection behind him is off limits to the general public. I often marvel at the vast double think of a great country which is so fearful of its own citizens possessing even historic relics and the lucky few who work in the field where they get to see the technological marvels of past eras. This is one reason why I became a collector myself. Yes these are weapons, but from a time and place quite distant from now. To be able to handle them and know first hand an example of a time of rapid technological change.

    • @rjfaber1991
      @rjfaber1991 2 роки тому

      I suppose you can't really blame them after having just endured one of the largest mutinies in recorded military history.

  • @scrappydoo7887
    @scrappydoo7887 2 роки тому

    This kind of thing isn't exactly new though is it as far as I understand.
    There are various systems supplied to potentially problematic forces that have been adjusted to stop them from achieving full potential no?

  • @samholdsworth420
    @samholdsworth420 2 роки тому

    Next season this weapon will be buffed to high hell

  • @mackenzieblair8135
    @mackenzieblair8135 2 роки тому

    I used to have a colonial issued Martini Henry. The rifling had been bored out to turn the rifle into a smoothbore.

    • @chroma6947
      @chroma6947 2 роки тому

      Wouldnt have mattered at rorkes drift

    • @mackenzieblair8135
      @mackenzieblair8135 2 роки тому

      @@chroma6947 a rifle will always be superior to a smoothbore. There’s a reason why the British did it.

    • @chroma6947
      @chroma6947 2 роки тому

      @@mackenzieblair8135 no not always. Otherwise the baker and brunswick would have replaced the standard brown bess.

    • @mackenzieblair8135
      @mackenzieblair8135 2 роки тому

      @@chroma6947 there’s a marked difference between a muzzleloader using paper cartridges and a breech loader using metallic cartridges…
      Rifling wasn’t standard in military muzzleloaders up until the developments of the ‘Minié’ ball because the speed at which a smoothbore can be loaded was much faster than a rifle. The advancement of a undersized bullet that would expand upon firing and grip the rifling meant that rifles could finally be loaded and fired at a comparative speed to smoothbores. Armies quickly transitioned to using rifles because they are superior.
      The point became moot once rifles started using metallic cartridges and were breech-loaded…

  • @mikehoare6093
    @mikehoare6093 2 роки тому

    But you already had the pattern 1842 musket, didn´t you ?

  • @FelixstoweFoamForge
    @FelixstoweFoamForge 2 роки тому

    Makes sense , (If you're an imperial power), why give someone who might rebel against you a weapon as good as yours? My heater is always with the Rebels though........

  • @NomadShadow1
    @NomadShadow1 2 роки тому

    Interesting

  • @cossior
    @cossior Рік тому

    You may mention the law introduced by the Company against widow burning vigorously opposed by Indians was one of the causes of the 1857 rebellion. This practice persisted until the 1980. Why all the British self-hating about their colonial record?

  • @welkingunther6930
    @welkingunther6930 2 роки тому

    Can you be more specific on the so called "animal fat" in the cartridge?

    • @davidkermes376
      @davidkermes376 2 роки тому +1

      rumors were spread among the hindus that cow fat was used, which violated their religious strictures about sacred cows. moslem troops heard the rumor it was pig fat, which violated their religious condemnation of pork. since the british tended to walk all over colonials' rights and feelings nobody believed them when they tried to deny it. the grease question was just one many insults the indian populations had put up with until everything boiled over in 1857.

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 2 роки тому

      @@davidkermes376 The Ordnance requirement was for mutton tallow and bees wax. In India the arsenals were sloppy about what fat was used when they made their cartridges.

    • @johnfisk811
      @johnfisk811 Рік тому

      Or rather their quality control over their local suppliers was lax.

  • @A.Steptoe
    @A.Steptoe 2 роки тому

    SLR to SA80? they did it again lol

  • @WraithOfMan
    @WraithOfMan 2 роки тому

    In the modern era we have the pretty ridiculous situation where we sell better versions of our military hardware to other nations - frequently not our friends, either - than those with which we equip our own armed forces...