A failed attempt; Britain's search for an Automatic Rifle with firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- In the late 1940s Britain were searching for an Automatic Rifle to match the German Sturmgewehr. This design did not pass the trials, watch Jonathan describe why.
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This is the first and only video on the internet about this rare British rifle.
I doubt many other people besides Jonathan have access to them in the first place
give it time. forgotten weapons probably has a video that is waiting to be released.
" i dont know what the P stands for " ....... " it was designed by Claude Perry " my Spidey senses are tingling
It really gives one a greater appreciation for the SKS, AK-47, and RPD. The Soviets were much quicker to adopt a family of intermediate caliber automatic weapons compared to what appears to have been a more bumbling situation in the postwar west.
Thanks a lot Rene Studler...
Studler did enough damage to western arms procurement that the Soviets ought to have given him a medal.
I think that can all be blamed on the American military bureaucracy, that was the big dog after WWII and refused to consider anything but a full-power battle rifle cartridge. Of course, they shafted the rest of NATO when the M16 and its 5.56x45 cartridge was hastily adopted for the Vietnam War.
@@dbmail545 The US Army wanted an intermediate rifle cartridge, but Col. Rene Studler at the US Ordnance Board dug in his heels and refused to accept the concept. He kind of had a point when he argued that crew served weapons needed greater range and ability to penetrate than rifles, and in recent years, we've seen that he was right, even if the way he went about it was sneaky and underhanded; intermediate cartridges do leave a lot to be desired in machine guns, especially when used against vehicles and aircraft. At the end of the day, I think the problem was that for logistical simplicity, NATO wanted a single cartridge for rifles and light machine guns, but the roles those weapons fill are too disparate to be adequately served by a single cartridge.
@88E3 Gunsmithing Services
Do you think it would of been easier to adopt an intermediate rifle cartridge, find gpmgs and lmgs are too underpowered so create a full power cartridge for both.
Than too adopt full power cartridge then find out its too powerful for a service rifle.
I, for one, love when you bring out multiple examples. It's always interesting to see examples that demonstrate secondary purposes, the evolution of a design, or personal customization next to a standard/common model.
Hi Johnathan, perhaps you could do a post on what an average day at The Royal Armouries is like. It can't all be looking suave and making UA-cam shorts! I'm curious as to what your day is like. Thanks.
good question! you get 1000 internet points... but spend them wisely
Great idea 👍
suave? creepy comment dude
Rifle serial number "8", sold at auction for £4,200 in March 2013.
whenever I watch videos about obscure guns like this, I always picture a level in a polished, true-AAA first person shooter set in an alternate history where after a short cutscene you equip it and go "wow, what is that?"
Sees locking into the left sidewall. Not surprised in the slightest by reports of poor accuracy... 🙃
0:23 YES for a long time I have been asking for that rifle. I am so happy.
Looks like a giant Mini-14 or the M-14's older brother.
This job would be like having the world’s best firearms collection on someone else’s dime. Not only that, you wouldn’t have to hear your wife say, “What am I supposed to do with all these when you’re done?” I hope Jonathan’s contract includes an emeritus status allowing him access to the collection after retirement.
Glad it’s not just my wife that says that
Well, I'm pretty sure even if Jonathan doesn't get emeritus status after retiring he will have access to the collection nevertheless. RA's collection is open for researchers and stuff upon request, so knowing people working there would make it even easier than just being a researcher
I really enjoy Jonathan's videos. Really well presented - entertaining and informative.
Excellent video I am so glad that you can share parts of your book, which I think is well written and very informative on this channel.
Mechanically the action seems really similar to the Czech ZH29 rifle.
I was thinking that. The ZH29 had ok precision, to my recollection, but the way the bolt locked to the side of the receiver apparently made it tend to shoot kind of to the side a little bit, which they tried accounting for with the sights.
This is a new one for me. I'm surprised Ian was beat to the punch so to speak. Great video, and great explanation of the operation.
Jonathan & Royal Armouries, top of any firearm programs to watch. Ian a very close second. Well done Jonathan & Ian.
As soon as you said "Weapon of Choice" I slapped my forehead. Well played folks! Great to see this interesting concept up close.
Excellent stuff, never knew these existed until now👍
This must have been very expensive. They have beautiful finish.
I never understood why BSA never made a Besal into a Bullpup?
It would be cool if you 3d printed the missing items on the weapons in red or something to give people a visual reference.
Great videos thanks
How weird, I just read the chapter that discusses this rifle in your book today!
Thanks to Prof. Matthew Ford and Jonathan for this information.
Great video!
(:
and Major Hobart, too!
You sir are correct. M1 pattern sling. I have a Re pro on my M1.
I cannot express how excited I am for these videos to come out each week.
That's very close to an M14 on the outside. I like the boxy stock.👌👌
I wonder if the graduations on the rear sight are in MOA? Makes more sense for the sighting system to subtend a known value of change with a prototype, as the ballistics of the .280 cartridge might have not been fully settled upon at the time.
Man you have my dream job. So many awesome firearms.
I have noticed a few comments referring to the side mounted sling, as being an M-1 Garrand, or M-1 Carbine, sling mount. From my experience, on the West side of 'The
Fascinating!
I had access to one of these a while back. The magazine is the most awkward thing I've ever encounter on a firearm. It managed to do a very good impersonation of clicking into place and then falling out. Once you managed to rock it into place properly it was fine but it was way too easy to do it incorrectly. Never had that problem with any other gun although it could have been a problem with that individual rifle {No. 8}..
That must have been the one which was up for auction about 9 years back. The rifle looks nice, so it's a shame that it wasn't better put together.
Many of the arms designers now in the UK were Polish including Vakrov or Wakrow at BSA . The 3 competition designs code named after snakes ( Cobra etc) for the 1957 trials were all designed and developed from Polish designs including a Polish Captain that changed his surname . The 280 British adopted by the British in 1951 proved to be a trials winner in 1957 and European nations adopted it as 7mm NATO made by FN , RUAG etc but was not acceptable by the all powerful US commission under Studler simply as the US didn't want a foreign cartridge . The FN did not beat the EM2 at the trials . FN simply made a 7 mm ( 280 Brit) and a version in .308 , whereas the EM2 could not be upgraded to fire the 308 which is not an intermediate cartridge and is almost as powerful as the 30-06 . The EM2 could fire full auto and single shot , was more accurate , reliable and better ballistics down range but Studler deemed it to be too flat shooting and may injure troops down range that were advancing . Basically any excuse to disqualify the best system at the trials . The 308 Win was chosen dubbed the 7.62 x 51 NATO and went into various rifles . In use the 308 was found impossible to control on full auto ( a requirement of the trials was that the rifle could be used on full auto which the 280 could be managed comfortably as a true intermediate round ) and as the M14 was now an SLR and quickly abandoned during the Vietnam war in favour of Eugene Stoners Armalite AR15 and the Dutch and Portuguese had adopted the AR10 ( also designed by Stoner) in the 7.62 NATO full on cartridge as an SLR . FN did supply all FALs in selective fire and also a HBar version as a LSW with bipod . All NATO countries had to follow the US adoption of the pipsqueak Remington varmint cartridge the 223 Rem now designated 5.56 NATO .
The US now has now gone full circle and adopted a 7mm (6.8mm) cartridge some 60 years after the 7mm NATO designed by UK and joint developed with FN as a ballistically superior longer range round than any of the US offerings after it was dropped .
Just think of the lives the adoption of the 7 mm NATO could have saved in the Middle East and Afghanistan !
Some British engineer had one two many pints and decided Germany and the Swiss shouldn't have a monopoly on overcomplicated equipment.
Well, the pint problem may have affected some Belgian engeneers, too.
their version of the BAR had a ratchet and cogwheel 'schtuff' to slow down rate of fire, too.
Any chance to see a video about the VSS Vintores and/or AS VAL?
Thanks Jonathan and team, that was really interesting to see. Whilst the design may not have worked all that well, it looks like those two rifles were very nicely built by skilled craftsmen at BSA. For those of us on Civvy Street, there must have been a time when BSA was the most popular make of smallbore target rifles in the UK. When I started smallbore target rifle shooting in the mid 1970s, BSAs of all marks were still widely used, but Anschütz rifles had also become very popular.
It's all a matter of personal opinion and likes.........when I started full bore shooting in the mid 60's I had a P14 .303 that had been cut down to make it a rifle good for hunting but it still had the Parker Hale peep sights so hunting died a natural death for the original owner and my club was so impressed with my shooting skills with it that they recommended and bought the Lee Enfield no 4 mark 2 for me.........my best range was 600 yards and I shot a possible to win the Hammond trophy on the day......as a club we used to shoot against the Springbok and Alexander bay commandos........this was in Namibia in the mid 60's at the Oranjemund shooting range.
@@gangleweed At AERE Harwell, we had three P14s and one No. 4 as club guns for Target Rifle events. All had been rebarrelled to fire 7.62x51. I never got to fire any of them at the Range but I did once borrow one of the P14s for some laboratory work.
5:30 So they took inspiration from M1, but completely ignored its quite advantageous locking system in favour of some sort of ZH-29-like arrangement, clearly outdated by that point, expensive and complicated. And not only that, but they failed to execute it properly, as illustrated by the out-of-battery detonation incident mentioned at about 17:38.
6:49 It seems like they didn't even bother to drill the aperture, and by the looks of it it would have been very small, uncharacteristically so for the British small arms of the day, which up to that point tended to have, in my humble opinion, probably the best sight arrangements in the world. Overall, the sight looks comically large for both its aperture and function, since the elevation range is very moderate for the cartridge being used.
7:18 550 yd is roughly 503 m, so it's reasonably round in both Imperial and metric, which, given the Anglo-French military alliance being established at that point, would be quite relevant.
9:02 So they haven't learnt from the German mistake with Kar.98k and its separate front sight protector, have they?
9:48 Putting a gas block at such an angle is an interesting idea for a M1-like gun, although I'm not sure whether it would be viable from a technological point of view. Then again, the whole system was overly complex from a manufacturing standpoint anyway.
15:36 Quite a high standard to hold a military rifle of that era to.
The sling appears to be a M1 CARBINE type...not GARAND. Thanks for the video.
Maybe the P stands for "Perry"? The designer, I mean.
Not a fan of the FAL. I carried both the semi and full auto versions and liked them well enough. But they would have been much better in an intermediate round.
So the FNC then?
Well vs. A .303, it is...
I used the L1A1 in the 80s and we found that adding a small bit of foil in the breech you could make it fire a full mag of 21 rounds in one squeeze of the trigger.
The trick of it was to stop it firing the full magazine.
I think one important point about the “AUTOMATIC” labeling of firearms pre-WW2, Compared to our modern use of the terms “AUTOMATIC/ SEMI-AUTOMATIC” for firearms today. In pre-WW2 times, The AUTOMATIC typically referred to “AUTOMATIC LOADING”. The modern day use of Automatic, Typically refers to the Automatic release or operation of the Sear/ or FIRING mechanism.
Jungle carbine bayonet too. Pistol grip as per Meteor air rifle.
5MOA in semi is pretty poor, 4MOA is what I would say is the minimum acceptable. That it opened up a LOT in full-auto doesn't help. Shame, because overall the rifle looks pretty nice and handy, something you'd feel confident in with a loaded magazine inserted and a bayonet on the end.
Was the BSA 28P the only British designed non-bullpup select fire rifle designed after WW2?
Birmingham Small Arms was the same BSA that made BSA motorcycles until 1973
Excellent....
What i wouldn't do to be allowed in the Royal Armouries firearms collection for a day
Love the video and John wick shirt.
Especially that you have rifle No1.
👍. Thanks for keeping me going through the madness. Can’t help but think this will end up in a call of duty near you. 🧐😆
Beautiful rifles
The good thing about failed attempts is you know what NOT to do. And many failed attempts at creating something lead to the creation something else in the process.
You get experience out of each failure, just hopefully the price to pay is not too high.
Do you have a Ljungman rifl or a Sjögren shotgun there somewhere
hey there... still wondering what that chunky looking 80's rifle to jonathans left side is.... ist big and chunky and has a carrying handle and some fal looking handguard... im gonna ask you again, dn again, and again, and again..
It reminds me of an SKS with a box mag.
Or a G41/G43 with an extended magazine 🤔
Yes but so much more complex for no reason.🙄🙄
I love Weapon Peter Capaldi, Jonathan Ferguson!
America has Ian Gun Jesus. Britain has Jon the Gun Revealator.
At 3:15, The "Major Hobart" you said wrote for Guns Review about this rifle, was it Major General Sir Percy Hobart? Of "Hobart's Funnies" fame?
Just what I was wondering. Don't think so though
Very much doubt it. If he was going to shorten the rank he would have simply used General, not Major if it was a Major General.
I love it when these things pop up in my recommendations and I’m , “This looks interesting I must have missed it.” The I find out I already liked it and commented on it 6 months ago. Yep getting old.
Must very frustrating being a developer for potential military contracts. I think I’d go all Bazil Fawlty if it was my job!😂
You're technically a British version of ian McCollum.
I feel it looks a lot like the M14 or M1A.. Just without the sexy aesthetic of the M14.
Could the "P" in BSA28P denote the name of one of the designers, "Perry"?
Why, yes, I have decades of extensive experience with this particular rifle, and can confirm that indeed is a US M1 pattern sling, but it is 2" shorter, as US Military had more to eat than sawdust sausages and were physically larger than the typical post war Tommy.
Anyone else hear the M1 ping at 6:40?
Please show more firings
Is there any chance that the sideways tilting locking action was influenced by the Soviet SG-43 Goryunov? Would examples of that have reached the UK at all?
There are no "purebred" firearms in the modern era, just lots of mutts.
It's more likely that the 28P design was influenced by the sideways tilting Czech ZH-29 rifle as it is known that the British Army tested the ZH-29 in the 1930s. Also it's unlikely that the British had any Soviet SG-43s in their possession in 1948.
Fun fact - The "P" in BSA 28P stands for "pew-pew" - Ian McCollum... (probably).
Yes, the sling is the standard U.S. M1 sling.
.280 British IS NOT and intermediate round its still a 7mm140gr bullet traveling at 2550fps with about 2000 ft lbs of energy, which puts it right in line with calibers like 6.5 Arisaka and 6.5 Carcano. To put this into context 7.62x39 and 8mm kurz are generally 123gr bullets traveling at 2250-2350fps which translates to around 1400-1500 ft lbs of energy.
Correct... The standard 7.62x51 is a 147-150gr bullet traveling at around 2800 fps. So the .280 is just slightly less than a “full power” cartridge
Perhaps this is a bit of Occam's razor, but why not P for Perry? He was one of the designers, after all.
well Jonathon it didn't have a rifle grenade sight to start with the doctrine of the day was to set the rifle at a 45 degree angle and adjust range by how far you lowered the grenade onto the launcher assembly! the farther down on the launcher the farther it went.
It is a very handsome SLR, I must say.
The Number 5 bayonet is a beast, the Fuzzy Wuzzies certainly wouldn't like that "up em".
Looks like A Federov and an M2 Carbine had a secret affair….
at @8:55 the only thing missing after that click is "noice"
beautiful rifle's
_______
Interesting era in firearms development, some designs were so good they are still in service, and yet some designs so bad as to become abject failures, while others still were excellent weapons but had a very short shelf life...
Almost like a time of turbulent divorce from the old hidebound concepts of what a rifle should be, and the more innovative ideas of what a rifle could be.
Multiple development paths, all essentially seeking the same goal.
_______
And if there is one beneficial aspect to all of these design successes, trials, and especially the failures... Is that all modern firearms are far less cumbersome tools.
If I were the designer I would have put the front sight above the bayonet lug.
"That's something that still have to go back and find out"
So Jonathan is a time lord?
While there IS such a thing as an Assault Rifle (and a Semi-Automatic CAN BE an “Assault Rifle”), it requires MORE THAN JUST the “Mid-power Cartridge.”
This Rifle has three of the Features that are required for an Assault Rifle, but is missing at least one of the other two features:
1. Mid-power Cartridge.
2. Box Magazine/High-Capacity Magazine
3. Shrouded Barrel.
Missing is the Inline Stock/Receiver/Bore.
The other trait would be the Pistol-Grip.
There are some other traits that define an “Assault Rifle,” where SOME demand a “Selectable Fire” in Semi-to-Fully Automatic feature.
These come from the US DoD requests for procurement of an “Assault Rifle.”
Actually reminds me of an M14 (visually)
8:21 is the best definition I have ever heard for an assault rifle. “Intermediate cartridge and select fire.”
Can't tell if this is sarcasm but the definition seems to work, as anything bigger (except for 7.62 x 39 and a few others) are considered 'battle rifles' like the G3, FN FAL etc.
Sorry im a bit drunk so can't tell the intent of this comment 😂
@@classunknown lol cheers 🍻 brother😎. I was serious though
Had seen this rifle in my Ian "Ivan" Hogg book, with little detail. Found it such an attractive weapon and, being a motorcyclist, I'd want BSA to do well so it is sad that it didn't make the grade. I'm guessing with the whole NATO round skullduggery it would have met the same fate as the EM2 anyway..?
anyone knows the name of the gun?
P for "prototype"?
How many soldiers would have lived if they had a semi auto instead of bolt action in WW2
Very M1 carbine/ mini 14 vibes
Perhaps the P stands for Perry
Once they compacted the gun to control rate of fire it was over for the gun.
I thought the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) made cool guns back in the Day,but Brimingham Small Arms makes more sense !
Tolen comment for the algorithm- good video! :)
I took a look at the internals of the StG44 for the first time literally yesterday and was really disappointed... by how simple it was, and how bloated the rest of the rifle was. I expected a lot more going on inside, and a lot larger, to justify the weapon's size and shape.
I thought to myself "maybe this operating system would've been an OK, easier to seal way to do a Garand-like thing"
Well, looks like the British did it like a decade late and weren't very impressed. It is at least a little better sealed than a Garand though.
Compared to G3 , how close their similiarity?
@@telurkucing5006 they work completely differently. G3 is roller delayed/locked blowback, StG is a piston gun with a tilting bolt. StG could be a far simpler system than a G3, and somehow isnt.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 about reability compared to AK 47 and G3, does STG 44 able to beat them?
@@telurkucing5006 For a lot of reasons, I highly, highly doubt it. But you can make any reasonable action reliable, and it is a reasonable action. Think about how the M14 switching gas systems really didn't fix the M1's problems and it was still outdated.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 that bad I thought STG 44 mechanism it can be as good as AK or G3, seems its just average
I wonder if the British ever looked seriously into the Huot after dismissing it during the first world war? If they were still looking for a suitable automatic rifle after the second world war and one of the member states had an answer effectively ready made, why not at least consider it? From the bit I heard the only thing against it was some ergonomics that would have been addressed if it had gotten past prototypes that were made in a garage. Maybe I'm misremembering how large it was and it may not be suitable in the assault rifle role, but the basic premise was sound and could have likely been scaled down on a smaller base rifle.
reminds me more of a Ruger AC556 than an M1 Garand
That’s one sexy looking waste of time.
Cool
Would 'P' stand for 'Prototype'?
P might be "Prototype"
6:08 did he slammed his finger
Never understood why it took so long for the UK to develop and field an automatic rifle. The UK was probably too picky, and obsessed with the bolt action. For full auto fire on the BSA, it would be interesting to see the group sizes of its contemporaries and rivals.
I think they failed because the full mud inversion test failed any attempt they tried.