Personally I never liked the idea that somehow Goldmask wants to end free will and sees it as an impurity. He's the one who goes out of his way to gaze upon the stars for an answer, something the Golden Order generally dislikes, and he makes constant use of his free will to find the truth. It's also stated that his mending rune was "found" by him, not "created" as it is in the case of Fia and the Dung Eater, two characters who wish to force their wills and ideologies upon the world because they believe they know better than others. Goldmask never does that, he doesn't even talk. I think the idea of him wanting to rid the world of free will not only goes completely against him as a character, but also against the description of his mending rune. To me it seems more like Goldmask understands that the gods are no better than men, and for that reason they shouldn't be able to govern the world and the golden order at all. If the golden order is the rules and laws of the world, then why would a person that has feelings and emotional outbursts and flaws like any other human but just so happens to be very hard to kill be allowed to pluck the concept of death from the given ruleset for their own benefit? Why should anybody be allowed to mess with the elden ring and its natural law? I believe that's the real Goldmask ending. The rune also seems to shield the Elden Ring, almost as if it was supposed to keep its restored perfection safe and let nobody meddle with its power anymore as to not plunge the world into chaos once more.
this! honestly I love TA's findings but this time, the logical connection between the scientific revelations, the free will and the sacrifice was too opaque for me. since the Goldmask was so clearly inspired by the thinkers of the Renaissance who reformed the hypocritical and tyrannic medieval Catholic church (in adidition to Copernicus n Newton I clearly see Martin Luther here as well) why try and stretch his concept onto some Blood and soil ideology in the last second all of the sudden? It looked more like "wait wait do you remember those guys who also were all about sun and being perfect? cause I do!". to me, the Perfect Order looks more like the turn to the New Time for the Lands Between. "okay, stop dancing around a large tree since there's no magic you can do with it anymore, go and study the world with your weak human hands since this is what pleases our God". there's literally nothing to the Goldmask's whole character which would imply he's into some encompassing desubjectifying "fascist" narrative; quite the contrary, he's all about opposing the imposed pseudoscientific narrative. a shame a researcher as conscious as TA happened to be that bold in his interpretation
I think you more or less nailed it. At first, the idea of freezing creation in place looks like Goldmask's intention, but as you point out, that eradicates free will. Life as we define it, really. It seems like Goldmask found the answer by eradicating his own ego, allowing the player to carry the Mending Rune. If divinity is brought low by human aspects such as desire, ambition, and thirst for power, it is more divine to relinquish yourself to the powers that be. Goldmask leads by example, allowing his own pathetic pupil to shove him off a cliff. The Rune probably wasn't even present until he began to fall. Appreciate this take a lot, and it underlines how interpretation is ER's most powerful tool.
I always thought this interpretation of Goldmask and his mending rune were pretty self evident, guess nothing is immune to stretches and leaps in logic. As for the nuance of what Goldmask's mending rune symbolizes, I've always interpreted it as an isolation of the laws of the world- not only from mortal man's meddling, but also from the *Greater Will* and any other divine presence. To bring about an era of agnosticism and scientific inquiry where even the Greater Will and the Two Fingers cannot directly influence mankind's progress.
Tarnished: Aurora Borealis? At this time of day, at this time of year, localized within the Mountaintop of the Giants? Goldmask: ... Tarnished: May I see it? Goldmask: ...
Regardless of my build or what ending I'm aiming for, I always end up doing Goldmask's questline. Character never says a word and is still one of the more interesting NPCs From has created.
Because gold mask is one of the few religious characters in souls series that is so loyal to his faith that he actually questions it and is willing to acknowledge it’s flaws to improve upon them
Not sure I agree with this interpretation of Goldmask's sun fetish. I saw it more that he was trying to achieve what Ranni wanted, just less literally: place the Elden Ring above the heads of everyone and everything, a symbolic sun, untouchable but vital. With Radagon destroyed and Marika reduced to only a vessel, there can be no God but the Order itself. Granted, this interpretation does create some thematic overlap with Ranni's, so I'm kinda into the idea of Goldmask going for something different - I just don't think "cessation of free will" necessarily lines up.
It seems like Ranni and Goldmask are approaching the same problem from different directions, and come up with different solutions to it. Ranni overthrows the old order, establishes a new one, and ensures her new order is completely out of reach and unobservable, therefore preventing anyone from messing with it. This leads to uncertainty and mystery, but also free will. Goldmask creates a perfect barrier around the order, preventing it from being messed with, but leaving it still within reach and able to be observed. This leads to continued study and observation, but also retains free will. The main difference is that Ranni seeks to completely remove order, so as to eliminate the primary means of justification for the horrendous acts the Golden Order, Two Fingers, and so on commit and believes more uncertainty an acceptable price, while Goldmask wants to ensure continued study of the order through observing the Elden Ring remains possible even if he knows firsthand how people can use it as justification for horrible things (hunters of Those Who Live in Death). Ranni values personal freedom more, Goldmask values understanding/learning more.
@@gunnarschlichting9886 Except he realised that " the fundamentals of Order" possessed no such justification. All the hunters wanted was a " great evil" to contend with. There is nothing in the Elden Ring that gives one incentive to hunt Those Who Live In Death down. As such, I'd wager he cares more about both than she does. After all, how can " free will" reign, in a world where the stars once again guide fate?
@diamondarmy5546 similar, but not the same, I'd say. Ranni is an absolute libertarian (not in the ideological sense): she wants everyone to be able to decide their own fate, their own destiny without the interference of any higher power above them. Her concern is not the elden ring (evidenced by the fact that she doesn't destroy it and instead takes it with her), it is the power it holds over the decisions of individuals. Goldmask's concern on the other hand is the misuse of the elden ring by marika and Co. and the instability of the world that their fickleness creates. Goldmask is instead placing a barrier between the elden ring and the rest of the world - forever preventing it from bring altered in the way marika did.
This is the one time I think you’re entirely off the mark: Goldmask isn’t a fascist, because he’s a holist who wants a non-anthropomorphic god. He doesn’t want mortals imprisoned but gods inhuman, inaccessible - He’s a kind of Protestant to the current Golden Order’s church. And remember: “The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?” The one thing we know about his ideology with perfect clarity is that he seeks to include, not exclude; he is precisely the critic of the Golden Order’s need to subjugate, because he sees the Order as capable of holistically including everything.
I believe he was just comparing how the desire for absolute order leads to striping people of agency. He wasnt calling goldmask a one to one facsist, but telling how order relates to fascism.
You are right that Goldmask believes the golden order hunters have lost their way, but his rune doesn’t actually do anything to assimilate those who live in death into the order. In his ending the Elden Ring remains completely unchanged except for a barrier that prevents anyone from tampering with it ever again. It’s my take that he is a GO fundamentalist until the end, sure he doesn’t approve of the cruelty that D and the other hunters employ, but he is focused solely on preserving the order in perpetuity. Just my take though.
The Order Healing flavor text, to me- only reinforces the interpretation that Goldmask's solution is the removal of free will. "All the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with."- here, he's clearly saying that desire and ambition is the evil to be contended. This is congruent with overarching themes of ambition within the game and what dire consequences they can have. The closing question he poses; "Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?”, is him musing if the same element of reckless ambition (aka free will) can be applied to the supposed untouchable Order and the gods therein. What I think Goldmask finally studies in the Mountaintops is the Greater Will, and interprets it's fathomless goal in The Lands Between. As such, Goldmask's Mending Rune of Perfect Order completely removes the free will of all sapient beings in The Lands Between- effectively allowing complete subservience for the Greater Will to enact it's machinations.
One thing to note, Coryhn isn't the killer. Goldmask will always die regardless if Coryhn took the tonic and forgets about the master or not. Haven't tried killing him yet. What I think took goldmasks life is the mending rune itself. It's the same with Fia that she dies regardless if D is around or not. Why would mending runes need a life? Well, from what is it made if not runes of their makers?
Brother Coryhn after farum azula and goldmask's death: At Leyndell, Ashen Capital (if the Tonic was NOT offered) Oh, it's you. I've finally come to understand. The master was nothing more than a madman. Enchanted by a vain and ruinous delusion, he rejected the perfection of the Golden Order, seeking to supplant our glorious faith with his own! Could there be a more pitiable comedy? Look at it. The culmination of perfection, burning, before our very eyes! Ha... ha ha ha...
At the same time. If Goldmask's perfect order is an order without free will, then he himself cannot be alive, for he has freewill. It's his freewill that creates the mending rune after all. But all runes comes from life, mending runes shouldn't be any different I think.
Dung Eater: Thousands will inherit the curse, along with their children, and their children’s children Shabriri: May chaos take the world! Goldmask: 🫵🏻
I interpreted his rune to be about removing the meddling of gods, who were no better than men, from the equation, as symbolised by the unbroken circle around the Elden Ring, shutting out outside influences, not about removing the free will if mortals.
Kind of a miss from Tarnished Archeologist here to be honest. There's nothing about removing free will and fascism. His mending rune protects the Elden Ring from people messing with it, like how Marika removed the Rune of Death on whim because she thought it would be cool if no one ever died. It's what the rune's description means, gods are just people with a too much power to fuck everything up.
Bear in mind that the "Gods" being referenced in his questline and rune are ones like Marika and the demigods, not the Greater Will. He still holds the Greater Will as divine and perfect.
@@rwberger6not only that he is directly guided by the greater will and it empowers him, just as it does with dung eater and Fia, to create mending runes
Just wanted to say: Perfect Order doesn't necessarily mean fascism. In Goldmask's case, I think it is pretty clearly an acceptance of physics based determinism over the idea that gods, or man, or beast have any true control over destiny. The dragon order fell, the beast order fell, the golden order fell, ... there are no real gods, just powerful beings who have temporary control, then fall to ruin. The only thing that hasn't fallen is the Laws of reality. Goldmask's Mending Rune basically creates an atheistic order: No more imperfect gods, only the Perfect Order of the universe itself.
this was my reading of his ending as well. i TA likes to read a bit more dramatically into possible interpretations, tho we just admit they're all equally valid.
The question then would be, how is Goldmask's ending different from Ranni's? Her quest makes a huge deal of the fact that she opposes the Outer Gods, and wants to remove them from the world entirely. Goldmask is evidently seen by the Greater Will as less radical and dangerous.
@@TriforceWisdom64 I don't really know, especially with the translation quirks of her ending. If I had to come up with something, her order still worships Ranni/the moon, but she is leaving The Lands Between to go to space to return in the far future, right? So Ranni's ending isn't really atheism, it's a conversion to a single inactive celestial god instead of many active terrestrial gods. When it comes to freedom, I would guess Ranni's order would be more chaotic-ly "free" with the power vacuum she left, but self-determination could lead to free democratic societies eventually. Goldmask's Order is literally perfect though. Ranni's Order is taking the hands off the wheel, while Goldmask's is doing the same thing but the car also knows where to go.
@GeneralTaco155555a That makes enough sense. I'm hung up on the pro-Goldmask argument I see that his order is "perfect." Fromsoft never includes a perfect ending; just look at Sekiro. Goldmask must have some kind of flaw or point of major contention, and "everything's great but there's no God" doesn't seem consistent with From's MO.
Gonna disagree with a lot of this. Point by point; 1. Goldmask is not a religious ascetic, he is a savant mathematician, specifically in the tradition of greek philosophers who did not entirely distinguish religion, metaphysics, philosophy and maths. His muteness, lack of concern for appearance, and repetitive motions, as well as his ability to spot and solve problems within his field are because he is such a savant. 2. The elden ring and its order is a metonym for the laws of nature/physics. Each group seeks to define and enforce a specific version, each adding or subtracting. From this, Goldmask identified these issues: The current implementation was retroactively altered, the natural laws of death were amputated when Marika removed the rune of death, the gap left unmitigated. If it were a formula, it would no longer be solvable as a key part of the equation has been removed. Additionally, Marikas manipulations to unify Lucaria with the Golden Order (hence why her identity as Radagon needed solving to Goldmask) showed she was deliberately manipulating the true order. Finally, these combined dialectically imply that if order can be made less by removing, it can be made not only whole but MORE. That there is a true, essential form of order beyond any limited implementation. That ignorance creates flawed versions, but true knowledge might realize its entirety. 3. While I agree with your statements on why he went north, it is important to note that the aurora is caused by solar events. Symbolically the connection to primordial currents and thus sorcery indicates sorcery is a part of this true order. They are not incompatible, they are correlated parts of the whole. That each and every group and religion has been working off a limited section of it. Even rot - an essential element of biological life cycles, is a part - deliberately neglected because it was unsavoury, rebounding back into the world more intrusively and unable to join within the full "formula", violently and imperfectly grafting itself into the equations. Goldmask is a mathematician and scientist. His mending rune may only restore the elden ring to its first version as Marika defined it under the greater will, but his repairs allow further cycles to follow in his footsteps, learn the essential truths of reality and progress towards a final full version, without the regressive interventions and redactions that harm this progress.
Like all of the soulsborne games, it's cyclical. Nothing gold can last. Hence why there's a different depiction of an elden ring in farum azula, why the greater will has a whole complex system for selecting bearers of the ring, and why it's selecting new empyereans to succeed. The ring is the most powerful thing in the world, but can be twisted by the likes of dung eater because it needs envoys and representatives and followers. If those followers change their beliefs, if the social order it creates and requires falls, it falls too, to be restored in a new form according to the beliefs of the next great power. Goldmasks rune is the next great order, but not as a vastly different shift, but as systemic reform according to the ideological foundations it was 'supposed' to have. His greatest change is that it is no longer able to be partially modified: isolating runes individually. It may be REPLACED, but only in its entirety. Think of it like a scientific model of physics that is not solely representational, but also modifies reality according to what laws it defines and how they must function. These theories of everything are expected to be developed and improved upon with knowledge. Marika deliberately removed a law after the current theory was complete, and it all fells apart from there. She wasn't correcting a mistake, it was removing knowledge to prevent her own death, in the process destabilising the whole system. Goldmask discovered what she did, why his understanding of the whole had been flawed due to this missing knowledge and how to repair and prevented further incidents; but he also saw that each theory was a partial version of a whole; sorcery is not incompatible because marika decided so, but because she did not incorporate it, they ARE compatible, everything is, once understood how, part of this single truth. His era will end, but he hopes without anyone meddling with the current progress, the next version will add more, and so on.
@@alyseleem2692 Why doesn't it appear in the Elden Ring in the ending cutscenes then? it is however in the Farum Azula iteration at the bottom of the middle spiral.
@@nbmoleminer5051 I saw it as being in the upper section of midline, actually, but you're right. I don't quite remember seeing it in the Elden Ring. Still, " the Rune Of Death is unbound". It is in effect; the Golden Order is finished. No matter the ending, that stays true.
"The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?" This is, perhaps, the most interesting quote in all the game to me.
I think it's great because it touches on the IRL belief that Evil itself doesn't actually exist and is merely the absence of Good. This has been a teaching varying in importance ever since Plato, most notably through the Neo-Platonists and Saint Augustine. If the Order is truly perfect and all-encompassing, to place things like the Omens or Those Who Live In Death outside of the Order is, as the text for that incantation imply, just the good and great wanting an absolute evil to stand against. At worst those things we do not understand are only mis-steps or misalignment with the perfection of the Order, hence their delerious effects on people and the world (see Godwyn's death curse spreading like a cancer). But Godwyn's deathroot is not an absolute evil seeking to destroy. It's just something out of step with the laws of reality, and so treating it with hate, anger, persecution, is ridiculous and only serving the foolish desire to have an absolute evil to contend with. Which is a non-starter of course. The Perfected Golden Order is probably the most interesting look into like, scholastic christian tinged religion we've gotten thus far in any of the soulsbornering games. Especially since there's an ending where you can explicitly align yourself with Gold Mask who is seeking to repair it and restore a holism that does not rely on singling out enemies or victims or sinners.
Here's something I always found very deeply interesting: Goldmask's Mending Rune was "Discovered", lending to the idea that it was a fact/principle/truth that existed independent of him and that all he did was find it. This further supports the ideas set forth in this video regarding Goldmask as a composite of mulitple great scholars. Here's the thing though: Dung Eater and Fia's Runes are both "Gestated". As in they are creating them and giving birth to them. Which holds up if you look at the genital mutilation and shirikodama elements of Dung Eater and the "laying" with the dead to become pregnant with their souls that Fia gets up to. Both the gestated runes came from people who were....taking in the essence.... of others.
Doesn't the Order Healing description undermine your interpretation of Goldmask's ultimate intentions? It suggests that Goldmask doesn't believe in the idea that deviation from order is evil. It seems more aligned with the idea that deviation from true order is impossible and that perceived deviations are derived from the fickle drama of the terrestrial gods. In this context, Perfect Order is the ideology of order that transcends contradictions implicit to terrestrial logic and institutions.
This would also be my interpretation of it. The frail and pacifist figure of Goldmask doesn't seem to align with something as simple as "removal of free will". The idea that he glimpsed something more complex and transcendental, beyond the fallible gods that ruled the lands between feels right.
Completely agree. The popular dichotomy between Goldmask and Ranni as representing Determinism vs Free will is both too shallow a reading for a Fromstoft game and also has little textual support.
@@thesmokeyhoe True, although I think a lot of it is trying to make a distinction between Ranni and Goldmask's intentions - which there are few. Both strive for an order that is no longer influenced by mortals. Primary difference is that Goldmask believes that this transcendent order was intended by the Greater Will, and the current order can be reformed by returning to those basic principles but maintaining the overall structure. Ranni, on the other hand, seeks to end the dominion of the Greater Will completely, switching to an order of the moon and the cosmos. Goldmask and Ranni intend the same idea, but Goldmask prefers reform and simply less autonomy/power of the elites while Ranni creates a revolution that uproots the entire thing.
@monsieurdorgat6864 I definetly agree with you on the Miriel/Goldmask parallel. Though I question the degree to which Ranni's ending actually amounts to a rejection of the Greater Will. It seems to me that given her status as an Empyrean, the Greater Will would still accept an order of the Cosmos. I agree with other content creators who have argued that the GW doesn't care specifically about the Golden Order but merely seeks to establish an order as such (further evidenced by the fact that both the Fia and Dungeater's ending count as mending the order even though they fall outside of the "Golden Order"). To me, only the frenzied flame ending amounts to a rejection of order as such and a rebuke of the Greater Will's designs (to the extent that these are knowable to us). My view of Ranni actually is that she's entirely self-interested and cares more about her own ascension to godhood on her own terms than any other more lofty goal. But that's another debate entirely.
I've always imagined Goldmask's perfect order as less of a mega fascist totalitarian regime, and more of a "no one can interfere with the Elden Ring anymore", literally putting the Ring out of anyone's reach, so that no one will be able to undo the original order of creation made by the Greater Will.
Yeah I strongly disagree with the whole "Law End is no more free will and is absolute dogma and control" vibe. I genuinely think all the new ring did was lobotomize the Gods so they can't fuck with the Order anymore.
Been a while since you covered good ol' Elden Ring. Nice to be back! That said, I think that we fundamentally disagree about a few things; most importantly, because of this. "The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with. Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?" The very idea that Order requires the conflict generated by the Golden Order under Marika's tutelage,according to Goldmask; does not exist. Also, I think there is a key misunderstanding of of the Mending Rune's description here; the "fly in the ointment" isn't merely free will; it is specifically the will of the gods, no better than men. Is the specific flaw with the aspect of Will? No. As you know, however fickle a man can be,their actions still lie within the chain of Casuality, guided by the stars. Will has not offended Order before, because Will has already existed within Order's confines since before Marika was ever born. "The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold." "The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return." So,why is it reprehensible that gods have the same will as men? Simple; gods must be held to a higher standard than men; their Will posessess far-reaching effects upon the world; their privilege allows them to change it's laws to their whims. The entirety of the Golden Order was born on the whim that Death be rejected; by the whim of Marika, who rejected the design written by the Greater Will itself, instead redesigning it around her own ideals in her utter hubris. The Mending Rune of Perfect Order is not a rune influencing Will, precisely; it is a shield against further interference. Rather than adding to the Elden Ring's design, it surrounds it; a barrier. A bulwark. No God shall ever have the privilege of changing the Ring ever again! The Erdtree has burned,as seen in the eyes of the prophets. Death has returned. Order is complete; no further addition or modification is required. The sin of the gods no better than men is recitifed. Thus, Order is once again perfect,and to be sealed.
I feel the truth is in the very name of the rune. "Perfect Order" is a misnomer. Order can never be perfected and to begin an Age of Perfect Order means to assert that things should remain the way they are regardless of any developments along the way. Be it in the form of new life or new thought. Let's say Goldmask's world of Perfect Order comes to be and the new ruleset for the world is established. By this I mean, the type of life that is deemed okay, the types of death/undeath, the creatures established as falling within and under grace. What happens years down the line when someone has a new potentially better idea for how life/order should work? When there are new lifeforms which don't fall under the established grace of "Perfect Order?" Does this "Perfect Order" change to accommodate those new lifeforms and schools of thought? If it does, doesn't that establish in the minds of everyone under this age of "Perfect Order" that it isn't REALLY perfect? Wouldn't that sow unrest in the people? If it doesn't change to accommodate those lifeforms or new thought is that not by definition fascistic? Could it even BE changed seeing as how the God of the land is the only one who can put those changes into motion and Goldmask's quest is in part about removing the influence of the fickle Gods from the order? Just my take on it. I think too many people are reading this questline at face value and only using what we can see in game without thinking about it's implications further down the line.
@@ATC43 The key word in the description is "ATTEMPT". It's a word that implies agency, that the rune is capable not just of immediately applying an effect, but that it will continuously do so. It suggests that it's an ongoing process: the only truly "perfect" order is one that changes to accommodate what is new. Instead of sticking to a rigidly defined order of the sort Marika attempted to enforce, Goldmask's version of the Elden Ring will be ever-evolving, ever attempting to refine itself, to adapt to new developments.
@@ATC43 You and too many other people are trying to twist the meaning of the Mending Rune to find a catch. Order isn't perfect. That is what Goldmask realised; it had lost Death, an integral part of the divine mechanism ordained by the Greater Will. By returning it, it is perfected. The only reason Those Who Live In Death exist is because of this mistake, and even then, Goldmask knows this is through no fault of their own, and instead looks into the root of the problem. If he thought the Order was " perfect" ,he'd be out there hunting skeletons like the rest of them. In the same vein, if any " new" class of being emerges to " threaten" Order as you say, the response would be the same. They would be treated well because that's what Goldmask would do, but people would also have to look for the root of the problem. And I say " if" because the only reason such new classes of being appear is due to the shenanigans involving the removal of a Rune of cosmic law, something which is no longer possible. All " new" classes of beings will be born under Perfect Order, and according to it's laws, which are the laws we already take for granted. Perfect Order, Order as intended by the Greater Will, is "perfect" in the sense that all the laws of the world fit together in a divine mechanism. It is Marika that made the mistake of removing one of them, in an attempt to " perfect" the world into a deathless paradise of her own design. But Order was already " perfect"; Order already ran the way the Greater Will intended, and was in no need of correction. Do you think anyone should have the opportunity to change these fundamental laws like Marika did? Do you perceive that as some privilege we possess? Well, no. You can't tell gravity to leave; that's why you look at birds and then build a plane. You can't tell disease to go away; that's why you make medicine. You can't tell Death to go away; that's why you have to make the best of it till it comes. The Perfect Order doesn't need to change to accommodate new things; things will exist within it regardless of the interference of Man or God. Before, Marika had to fight to impose her vision of deathlessness as something people must not only accept, but get used to; Erdtree burial, Erdtree rebirth, feeding the Minor Erdtrees, the works; here, the laws of the world run themselves. Death. Birth. Rot. The stars of Fate. No one holds them anymore. No one can " change them up". No one will ever have the license to use them to impose their own vision upon the rest of the world. All are part of the grand scheme. Heresy is but a contrivance; all things can be conjoined. All things find their root in the Elden Ring. Does that seem too difficult to understand?
Bro i spilled my metal everywhere, i was eating when i noticed the notification, saw your comment and now im commenting from the shadow of the erdtree, sheers
I'm so glad you make us wait less for new content than FromSoft. This channel has increased my enjoyment of this game so much. Thank you for all the amazing content!
I always interpreted this completely the opposite: that the problem of perfect order is that there were those who were above the order (the gods no better than men), essentially saying that in order to create a perfect system, all must be equally subject to its rules, because even the gods were morally fallible. The real life comparison being moving from monarchs (who were equally fallible, no better than any other man) to democracy or other systems in which the leaders are held more accountable.
Yeah, that final take-away really clashed with everything else we know about Goldmask. We know from item descriptions that Goldmask lamented the persecution of Those Who Live in Death, and we know that this persecution came from the gods and human adherents to the Golden Order. So in Goldmask's view, persecution of conflicting elements was a flaw that needed fixing. A flaw that he pinned squarely on the gods themselves. Would not Goldmask's perfect order be one that dethroned the monarchs and ended their ongoing persecution entirely? Anyway, it kinda felt like this video lost sight of the character's stated beliefs in the last few sentences there.
I’m not sure that lines up with perfect order. Holding monarchs accountable doesn’t mean people won’t be sporadic and do spontaneous things. Free will and spontaneity is the enemy of order, and perfect order. The golden order tried to control order through causality, regression, and removing destiny and the future from reality. Marika removed destined death (the future/destiny) to make her order, but things outside of control still happen , per the “Greater will”. It’s basically a cosmic being trying to insert its will against human’s VS human’s free will. As TA said. Gold mask’s dogmatic arse wants to remove people’s free will, so only the greater will is in charge. No more free will, only the greater will for perfect order. But removing Marika’s free will is also removing Marika’s free will. Which goes against their central dogma. That she is the true god. Why would true god need to lose its free will? Thats heresy.
@@vigil2249 I disagree, in the order healing incantation it says that Goldmask "lamented at what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with." Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order? this implies that Goldmask did not agree with the mindless persecution of "those who live in death" reinforcing the idea that Goldmask does not believe in blind faith of the golden order which is shown by his incantations which require int and faith and also that corryhn labels him a madman for not believing in the perfection of the golden order
@@Pillowcasethegreat The description of that particular incantation still fits under TA's interpretation of Goldmask's motives. His lamentations aren't over the persecutions, but the waste of "learning and learnedness." In this interpretation, Goldmask dusn't give a dusty toot about Those Who Live In Death, but rather laments his peers who (in Goldmask's eyes) abandoned the pursuit of understanding in favor of bloodlust and scapegoats. Their free will led them to abandon the pursuit of perfect order.
@@Pillowcasethegreatyep, goldmask literally defends the idea that the order cannot be perfect because it doesn't include and incompass all. This means that he defends the idea of criticizing the order and correcting it, to a point where it applies to everyone and cannot be messed with by anyone, being eternal and with order. This means that all he cares is about having rules that apply to everyone equally. What that order is is irrelevant, as long as it constant and eternal.
The last portion seems like a big leap of logic. Goldmask references the gods and demigods more then the concept of freedom or their own free will. He effectively saw the local Pharaoh and decided that the church was good enough alone.
The sun being an idol of free will fits perfectly with the miquella of the dlc. In castle sol there is a npc spirit apologizing to miquella for not being able to block out the sun. We now know that miquella would «steal hearts» i.e. divest his followers of their free will, to create his perfect order of «compassion». Thus it makes sense that he would want to limit/block out the sun.
Another thing which creates a 'halo' in relation to the Sun is a total eclipse. In the North of Elden Ring this imagery exists at Castle Sol where they're devoted to that image of the eclipse. Similarly the weapon 'Eclipse Shotel' displays very similar imagery of said halo around it's edge. The banner of Castle Sol also shows a stark eclipse with powerful halo imagery.
I was thinking something similar, goldmask (the sun) and his revelation in the mountaintops (a land of sorcery and the moon) could be why his "complete" faith looks like an eclipse. If we end up seeing miquella's eclipse in dlc, I wouldn't be surprised if it looked a bit like goldmask's rune encompassing the elden ring, especially since we can already see hints of the elden ring on the moon itself. Edit: and miquella is already combining carian iconography with golden order fundamentalism to make the haligtree faith. It seems that both goldmask and miquella are taking very different paths towards the same goal, whatever that really means for the world
I thought the same, there's a lot of similarities to be drawn between the assessment and solutions of Miquella and Goldmask. There's lore that ties the symbology of an eclipse to Miquella, and I'm struck by how the protective halo around the ring described in Goldmasks ending seems very similar to the outer-god warding magic of Miquella.
Goldmask never doubts, that is Corhyn. Goldmask becomes excited at the revelation. He's a great character. I love that he meets the criterion for being a practicing Two Fingers. His being outside of the lands between where the church of the two fingers grew, he had followers, he waves two fingers about frantically, there is somebody reading his fingers, doing so provides revelation, and he foresaw the coming guidance of grace.
He actually becomes depressed. If you are online, you can go to another world (invade or assist someone) and go to where he was in Lyndell. You will see a phantom on him in an agonizing position
In what world did you dig up the thought "free will is the fly in the ointment"? The mending rune of perfect order kinda makes the Elden Ring untouchable. So not even gods could influence or break it. He frees the Elden Ring from the influence of the gods, who are no better than men.
I was so excited when I saw this pop up in my feed, but I can't help but walk away disappointed. The historical comparisons are on point as always, and you have some really good analysis, but then the ending absolutely destroys the entire video. Your idea of Goldmask as some sociopathic would-be tyrant requires completely backpedaling on everything we know about his character and the textual evidence presented in-game; as other people have explained in the comments, Goldmask's Mending Rune isn't about eliminating free will, but quite transparently about holding the gods accountable for their actions and preventing them from interfering with the Elden Ring the way Marika did. It's not about imposing tyranny, it's about _preventing_ it by ensuring the gods are just as accountable for their actions as mortals. To somehow read Goldmask- a character explicitly described as being horrified that the other Golden Order Fundamentalists have taken to persecuting groups like Those Who Live In Death, and who believes that absolute evil is inherently not an aspect of Order- as a fascist requires that you ignore absolutely everything about his character presented in-game. Maybe I'm missing something, but it feels a lot like you had a preconceived notion about Goldmask's ending, found contradictory information to that interpretation, and then twisted the evidence to suit your beliefs instead of adjusting beliefs to match evidence. And that is absolutely NOT something that a theorist _or_ an archaeologist should be doing.
To understand Goldmask his quesline you need to understand two things. First, he was a fundamentalist, which means he believed in the perfection of the golden order. Where he deviated from his fundamentalist peers is that when presented with undeniable evidence of the flaws of the golden order he didn't deny it or seek to destroy the contradictions that exposed the order, he sought to understand them. Because if it wasn't perfect, then it wasn't the "true" golden order. This is most likely what got him banished as Tarnished. Second, he was brilliant and approached his faith like it was a math formula. Think of it like this: The perfect golden order is "3". The formula of the current golden order he believes in is "1 + X = 3". Only when he actually looks he sees that the current golden order comes out to "1+ X = 2". This is the point in the game where you first find him, puzzling over why the formula of the current golden order is not resulting in perfection ("3"). As you follow his questline he determines that the formula itself is flawed and missing something. You discovering the secret of the statue is him discovering that his formula was missing a key piece. Instead of "X" being "2", it was actually "1". He was essentially trying to "1 + 1 = 3" and wondering why it wasn't working. So he corrects his understanding of the golden order to make it perfect, changing it to "1 + (X+1) = 3" by factoring in the new information (that the Gods were prone to the same flaws as mortals) and generates his mending rune of perfect order.
"I am in love with no other than myself, and my very separation is my union ... I am my beloved and my lover; I am my knight and my maiden." -Ibn Arabi
Rather than a true removal of free-will, you could instead focus more on Golden Order Fundamentalism's focus on INT and mathematics and say that Goldmask's Perfect Order would be one of immutable law. Basically, the world we live in right now may in-fact constitute Perfect Order, where all things are determined by cause and effect and the predictable interactions of elementary particles. In that sense, our current human free-will in real life operates in accordance with Perfect Order, and so we may say that rather than Goldmask's Order robbing the people of the Land's Between of free will, it would instead systematize it: Free-will incorporated into Order, rather than removed from it. Essentially, his Perfect Order would be to bring about a fully deterministic universe.
How do you think that stacks up with Ranni's ending, which I feel accomplishes the same without the need for the existence of a dogmatic set of rules in the TLB?
@@ATC43 I'd say Ranni's is the more ambitious but less safe option. Perfect Order attempts to refine the Elden Ring's laws to create an intricate system of perfect interlocking logic in the image of what the Golden Order was MEANT to be. Whether or not that's a good things depends on what exactly Goldmask envisions as the Golden Order's proper functioning. In contrast, Ranni seems to forgo the Elden Ring entirely. She rejects the system outright and purposefully plunges the world into the unknown. Whether or not that's a good thing is entirely up in the air until anything good or bad actually happens.
@@ATC43 I see one more important difference: His rune does seem that he imprisons 1 individual in particular: whatever is left of Marika is needed for it to work. She is a statue, but also, might be still somewhat alive and sentient after being rebuild? I have no fucking idea, but its possible? And that is what I would perceive as the one fatal flaw in his rune / ideology - the subjugation of the god. But even that interpretation kinda relies on the premise that Marika does not wish to be alive anymore at this point in time. Ranni in contrast grants Marika a dignified end on her own terms and then attempts to create a new order, with similiar goals than Goldmask. In that sense I am with Ranni. I will take a larger risk and effort, in order to be merciful to everybody, without exception.
See this is interesting. I always read goldmask as someone who was saying, see the gods are just as bad as us, we should try to be more philosophically consistent. Not necessarily an anti human thinker. Interesting stuff!
The fly in the ointment is not "free will on men" but the sheer absolut fact that gods are not perfect, nor is the greater Will. You got that wrong sir.
The only issue I have with this video is that you don’t show the cave painting. The only evidence I could find of cave art depicting Aurora Borealis comes from Pinterest.
If you look up the academic paper "Changing perceptions of rock art: storying prehistoric worlds" by archeologists Astrid J. Nyland & Heidrun Stebergløkken, Figure 10 shows some pictures of cave art believed to show Aurora Borealis
Very glad to see a read of Goldmask that both appreciates his dedication to uncovering truth and his faith in the pursuit of knowledge, while also recognizing the folly of his perfectly ordered ideology. I feel like too often we see Goldmask employing scientific inquiry and questioning the faulty order of the world, and go "ah, yes, The Rational One" without interrogating the limits of human rationality. And I especially love how succinctly you bring up this critique! I've also been fascinated by the imagery of Goldmask's mending rune. Fia's rune acts as a root symbol that mirrors the Destined Death rune at the top, Dung-Eater's is an infection that disrupts the entire ring's design, and Goldmask's is a new reinforced ring that encircles the Elden Ring in a closed system.
I am unsure of TA's interpretation of Goldmask's ultimate epitome. The Order Healing description undermines the idea that Goldmask believes in deviation from order as evil, or even a possibility. It seems more likely that Goldmask's epitome was that all perceived contradictions to the benevolence of order are derived from from the fickle drama of idealistic gods, and that true order transcends history, context, and alliance and thus all things possible are also part of order.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 True, I don't see Goldmask as explicitly zealotous in his belief in perfect order (I mean, zealoutry was literally what led Corrin to kill him lol), but I do see him as "foolish" in the same flawed way that any human is. I don't think Goldmask is considering his ideology in terms of good or evil. But rather his mistake comes from thinking that he could even possibly have a "solution" to the disorder of the Elden Ring. If Goldmask's interpretation of perfect order is a system that encompasses all things infinitely, then I can only see it as ironic that it takes the symbolic form of an observable, finite circle. As though to imply that his version of "all-encompassing" is still a limited scope via human perception.
@@hunterm1113 The Ideology it's pretty simple. If Gods are as fickle as men then there's no reason for them to have more power than men. Marika and each and every Demigod were guided by their own ambitions and nothing else uncontested because the Golden Order had control of the Elden Ring and when it broke its the Demigods gained the Great Runes and with it power initiating a meaningless war in wich at the end none of them rose winner of but did indeed made the Lands Between a warzone from wich no one was exempt. The sealing of Destined Death was not made with the idea of improving life, it was to fit Marikas's vision (Or preventing the GEQ for being a threat anymore but that's beside the point) and it's that act that let the Night of The Black Knife happen and with it uncountable innocents were forced to live in dead for no other that they touch a flaw upon the order (Rogier's dialogue) To prevent anyone else from being able to draw power from the Elden Ring, to be able to change reality with the Elden Ring it's neccesary to make it unchangeable. Rulers change, philosophy change but some rules should be absolute if we seek to prevent anything like Those Who Live In Dead or the Shattering to happen ever again.
Miyazaki has a background in sociology, and I find curious one of the biggest dillemas of the field is that we had a modernist/scientificist/structuralist tradition of thought, that gave us all the classic thinkers of the field, and that believed everything could be explained by science, rational principles and study, and as such we could find truth and achieve progress... and that got absolutely shattered by the post-modernist/structuralist tradition that saw that attempt of rationality fail catastrophically and violently, and then judged true knowledge to be impossible and all truth being just a clash of power and narratives, fundamentally irrational in nature. Where we had all-encompassing metanarratives before, now they got shattered and no one believes them anymore, just in their fragmented narratives that make themselves true by belief and practice. Goldmasks's fascination with the Sun, more than anything to me, seems like him finding the common denominator between a lot of disparate and opposing groups in the Lands Between, a truth common and fundamental to all of them: The Golden Order has sun imagery, Those Who Live in Death have sun imagery, the Fire Giants have sun imagery, the Omen have sun imagery, and even the primeval current seems integrated - he has an Order that encompasses all of those rejected and opposed by the Golden Order and, rather than basing it on a fickle figure or anyone's will, he can base it in an observable fact that is above any being's will. In that context, specially if we take the Golden Order as parallel to renaissance illuminism, I could see Perfect Order as the narrative equivalent of going back to the concept of truth as something even attainable, the return to the modernist dream where we can explain the world through rules and principles, the return to the possibility of one grand model that can explain the whole of life and that we can have a rational, orderly explanation for everything and that will lead to progress and prosperity. Instead of rejecting truth, modernity and scientificism, using the previous flaws of the model to inform how to create a better one, that solves past contradictions with new perspective and can stand as a truer truth, above anyone's narratives.
This is my interpretation of Goldmask's mending rune was two fold to return to a fundamentalism of the original configuration of the elden ring to what it was when the elden beast arrived with it and to install a safety mechanism to keep gods like Merica and Radagon from meddling with it to suit their own desires. Merica introduced the flaw of those who live in death by removing the death rune she also was the one to shatter the elden ring when she could no longer stand the weight of her station. Whereas Radagon removed the rune of rebirth and gave it to Rennala as a parting gift. Radagonn also sought to incorporate Carians into the Golden Order and in the process quite literally sired the architect of the shattering in doing so. Regardless of if Radagon and Merica were always one being with two wills or two beings merged together they both abused their role as a vessel for the elden ring to make it what they desired rather than what the Greater Will wanted it to be. It could also be argued that they tried to cheat the system a little wherein a god is required to be the vessel of the elden ring and the elden lord is required to brandish it in their merged state. A byproduct of this could be the flawed state of the twins. My interpretation is that Goldmask looking at all this and determines it is not freewill of man that is the problem nor is it the freewill of the gods themselves. The flaw he sees is their ability to meddle with the order the elden ring provides to suit their purposes. The ultimate irony though is he is willing to perform the same exact sin that the gods did by installing this mending rune to stop the meddling of the gods.
I think that the interpretation of "perfect order" meaning a fascist dictatorship state is a less than ideal take mainly informed by associations that are part of the western zeitgeist more than a plainly face-value one. Yhatzee, the guy who made the "zero-punctuation" series of game-reviews mentioned a quite unsubtle trend in games to offer as narrative options what he coins the "fascists vs nutters" situation; Wherein the game would allow you to align yourself with either lawless, structureless anarchists, or totalitarian authoritarian factions. Merely from a writing-quality assessment perspective, I don't think Fromsoft would lean into this trope, because it is quite lazy in my opinion. In the West we tend to think about things in terms of opposites and extremes, but that outlook doesn't exactly penetrate everywhere. The idea that "perfect order" = the complete cessation of any ramifications, is probably a direct result of this somewhat intense frame of mind. For example people tend to see the yin-yang symbol as indicative as opposing opposites, and even in media the idea is often asserted that "chaos and order need to be balanced" but that's not really the whole picture of what the symbol represents. The yin-yang symbol *represents* perfect order as a total complete symbol, the chaos is factored in. I think Goldmasks' "Perfect Order" probably has less to do with totalitarian sociopolitical schemes and more to do with eliminating the hypocrisy of a human-input from the natural order. Goldmask doesn't strike us an an egoic entity, instead the lore and context around him present him as a fiercely philosophical, objective, and holistically-preoccupied observer of the laws of the universe as he experiences them as both a scholar and person of faith. Chaos as it may appear is just as likely to be part of his Perfect Order as it is to be for some reason eschewed. A youtube comment makes for a terrible place to make a point and I don't really care to give a point by point and scrounge up sources and references, BUT! That's my take.
It's kind of like the dichotomy of Parmenidean vs Heraclitean thought. In a sense, they seem diametrically opposed, flux vs stasis. But when you really think about it and read them, they start to look pretty similar. How can anything change if there isn't something that is changing? How can something be if it isn't in some way not changing?
Goldchad Ftw! I always read the strives within the Golden Order as the historical challenge between Gnosis and Pistis, knowledge vs. faith (which is why the key fundamentals require purely INT over FAI, I believe). The rift between Gnosticism and the early church fathers.
It's a lot more than those two things, which proves to me that you're the type of player who doesn't read any items and then goes on to claim that "Fromsoft games have no story." The OP knows what's up. You, do not.
what an excellent analysis this is. these videos provide a tremendous insight into the stories and metaphors hidden in these games. I really hope to see a video/series about the lore of Dark Souls 3 as well, that would be awesome.
As usual, your videos are impressive. I'm amazed at just how much you think through these topics before presenting them, which reflects the incredible amount of research Miyazaki and FromSoftware have done on the backgrounds of their games. Their attention to detail, and yours, is overwhelming, in the best possible way.
My first instinct on seeing Goldmask's Age of Order ending was the same as TA's. But upon further thinking I came around to yours. I think all Goldmask did was make the fundamental order of the universe rigid and unchangeable. Never again will the Elden Ring be altered or changed. It's an age of pure logic and reason, where the universe can be understood and no fickle god can rewrite the laws of reality on a whim.
@@Xerxes8282 I agree, apart from one aspect: It does seem that he imprisons whatever is left of Marika for it to work. She is a statue, but also, might be still somewhat alive and sentient after being rebuild? I have no fucking idea, but its possible? And that is what I would perceive as the one fatal flaw in his rune / ideology - the subjugation of the god. But even that interpretation kinda relies on the premise that Marika does not wish to be alive anymore at this point in time.
Goldmask’s relationship with the heliocentric model and his frustration with trying to square inconsistencies in the Order reminds me of the history of physics. People were confused about the retrograde motion of planets, and later by the entanglement of space, gravity, and time, before these ideas were unified by Newton and later Einstein. While your idea is probably correct, I prefer to think of Goldmask’s order as less a removal of human free will and more an excising of the gods and magic as hands in the universe, allowing a unifying idea of natural law to hold together the world.
YESSSSS Another TA video! Once again another banger that checks out with what I interpreted from the game but with a coherent, history backup for it. You guys really never miss and I'm always so excited to see your vids.
Even though I really can't help but think alot of these essays are trying to find deeper meaning and connections where none exist, like someone finding a McNugget shaped like the face or Jesus and it being divine or something, I really enjoy the historical aspects of the presentation that have taught me quite a few things about history I did not know and went on to look up and research further out of sheer curiosity, which is awesome! Love the channel regardless!
I'm genuinely so happy to see you make another Elden Ring video. I loved the series, and I'm sure I'll love this one too. Any plans on a sekiro video btw? Just curious
This is a great video! I would like to add a bit of anthropology to your archeology. I find it interesting that gold mask shares the distinct anatomical phylogeny of the various humans we see in the lands between such as the gatekeeper at stormveil castle. Other Tarnish from the outside world share a phylogeny similar to our own character. Basically, human sized humans of similar build. Whereas gold mask is a towering figure that is unlike other tarnished. Now this would lead me to believe that gold mask is from the lands between, most likely the child of two commoners since the commoner class is what model his character is modeled after. So was he banished to the outside world? Or wandered the world for so long that people thought he was from the outside world. Just an observation. From one medical scientist to a tarnished archeologist
There has never been a yt channel for me before quite like Tarnished Archeologist. I have to thumbs up every single video bc I feel it deserves it. Every single one. I just truly feel I'd choose this channel if I had to make a choice what channel can I only watch for the rest of my days or if I can recommend only one to a friend. The same with: what game would I recommend if you can only play 1 in your life? Elden Ring. (and kind of Bloodborne with which I'm still in debate but how good that I don't have to choose between the two.)
Good video, but I read Goldmask's story differently than you. I didn't see him as "fascist", particularly when reading his view of the Golden Order Fundamentalists' zealotry against Those Who Live in Death: "The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with." He doesn't seem to denigrate other forms of existence supposedly antithetical to the Golden order, the way others in the Order do. Rather, I see Goldmask as a philosophical transition from an understanding of the universe as the result of Divine Order to an enlightened Natural Order. I don't know that he thinks humans generally, other cultures, or other forms of existence are evil or impure. I think his philosophy really is just: We shouldn't alter the rules of the universe as they stand now. The issue with that is that the world is still clearly broken, but it is quite similar to Ranni's perspective, in my opinion.
Agreed 100%. Him and Ranni actually have really similar values, they just come to similar but different solutions. The main difference is that Ranni values personal freedom the most, and so considers more uncertainty and mystery an acceptable tradeoff, whereas Goldmask values continued study and learning of the Elden Ring and order as a whole the most, and considers possible future actions that use the order as justification wrong and something that should be pushed back against but still a possiblity. Both want to prevent anyone from meddling with the order again in the future, they just have a slightly different ranking in priorities and use different methods with different tradeoffs.
Interesting, but I dusagree with the final takeaway, as it doesn’t really line up in my opinion. His grand revelation in this interpretation is essentially "The Order is right, EVERYONE ELSE is wrong!" Which is not really heretical, and wouldn't disagree with Cohen's zeal.
Corhyn doesn't kill Goldmask, it`s an understandable conclusion, but not what happens, Goldmask, Fia and Dungeater all die upon creating their mending runes. D beholder of death attacks Fia while he sees her "resting" next to Godwyn. Goldmask's dies in the same place with or without ever meeting Corhyn. reading the wiki`s, Corhyn can die in several locations depending on if you tell him about Goldmask or give him the tonic of Forgetfulness.
Isn't it sort of a contradiction to say that the creators of the mending runes died making them, and then explain that D actually killed Fia? Or did he only think that he killed her, and she was already dead? And as for Dungeater, I figured all the seedbed curses he took in are what probably killed him.
Under this theory, he thinks he killed her but she was already dead. Or perhaps in either case making the mending rune takes 99.9% of someone's life where they would die shortly after regardless of is someone kills them or not. They're left alive just long enough for someone to do the honors, but would die on the spot regardless. Could be something like that. @@Galamoth06
@@Galamoth06 Destined Death is sealed. Unless you are slain by Maliketh's Black Blade or have the entire two halves of the Rune of Death carved into your flesh literally no one can actually die. How are people still not understanding this?
@@Galamoth06 sorry for the confusion, I'm not very good at word play. D finds Fia and thinking she`s asleep attacks her not knowing she was already dead.
My favorite EldenBro! I really hope he gets more content. It’s a shame his quest only has dialogue and an INT check when it’s arguably the best ending.
Great video! Love seeing you connect historical parallels to Fromsofts story telling. However, I strongly disagree with the reading that Goldmask is opposed to free will. I don't think there's much direct evidence to draw this conclusion. Not only can we philosophically square notions of determinism and freedom, but neither is moral responsibility threatened by the truth or falsity of determinism. I've always read Goldmask's mending rune as a kind of sealing rune that prevents future tampering with the Elden Ring. It seems to me that Goldmask regards the removal of the Rune of Death as one of the cardinal sins of the Order. We can infer this from various item descriptions that juxtapose Goldmask with other zealots like D, who view Those Who Live In Death as aberations to the Order that need to be expunged. Goldmask on the other hand views this as misguided, and tries to reconcile how TWLID can even exist if the Golden Order is in fact perfect. As such, it seems to me that his gripe is with the Gods behaving like men with respect to being flawed and fickle. If Gods are no better than humans in this way then sealing away the ring makes a lot of sense. Goldmask can therefore be read as wanting to establish an order that cannot be tampered with by those who would benefit from its alteration. Given the way in which the Elden Ring acts as a metaphor for something like "The Laws Governing Life in the Lands Between", this actually reads as very freeing. It amounts to an acceptance of the vulnerability and corporeal limitation of humanity, an aescetic acceptance that some powers are beyond the scope of that which mortals should desire to control for their benefit. Rather than a reading of a fascist ending that strips humanity of its freedom, it seems to me completely the opposite. It's deeply liberating that Order now simply exists as a fact of the world and is sealed away from the meddling influence of those who would call themselves Gods (a status they can claim only because of their control and manipulation of order). Humanity, rather than being masters of nature/life should instead find a more humble place within creation.
WHY ARE YOU SO AMAZING? I honestly aspire to be someone like you, although we probably are the same age. Knowing history and archaeology, being able to read in-depth into the visual design and world in art is truly amazing. I was at some point researching chalice dungeons and their similarities with the culture of Yharnam, and was FASCINATED by how real it felt: a forgotten culture still seen on the face of cities, history told through visuals. I WAS able to read into it, yeah, but never with such accuracy and depth as you do, or like that other guy who made "True History of bloodborne" with historical, literature and scientific references. And also, what an amazing studio FromSoft is, being able to squeeze so much layers of information, references and inspiration into their games. I love this world
Another excellent video! I have to wonder, does Goldmask restore the Sun to it's rightful place in the Lands Between? I don't think so. Sunflowers face the Erdtree, not the Sun. Since the Erdtree seems to have usurped the Sun in this geocentric model, I feel it's merely just a symbol to him of eternal perfection (my thoughts on this are complicated but to me the Sun is just as subject to change as anything else) so Goldmask will have to deal with a reckoning eventually. To him the Golden Order was perfect, it was merely the fickleness of the Gods he took issue with. He seems fine with the Erdtree as it is.
Not quite. The first thing that truly disturbs Corhyn when following Goldmask was catching onto the suggestion that they may have to burn the Erdtree; like us, Goldmask knows it must burn for us to make any progress to change the world. Aye, the Erdtree does return in some form, but will those sunflowers look to it now.... Or back up to the Sun?
As always a great video that makes me go “huh”. Also whatever you use for captions is really good, better than a lot of UA-cam videos. This random person appreciates that.
16:54 a serious question, if what Goldmask saw lead him to heresy and doubting more the Golden order then he might see something that make him think that someone or something made a grave mistake and tried to cover it right?
I think it's worth mentioning that the description of the Eclipsed Sun of Sol says it "prevented an onlooker from averting his gaze", which also sounds like it took away their free will. (The Eclipse Shotel also has this blazing corona).
Hitting like before I even watch this! I’ve been missing the ER content cos I haven’t played BB yet so I haven’t watched your latest videos to avoid spoilers. Never stop making ER content, I cannot get enough! 😅
The irony of Goldmask being an advent of Chaos by being a Tarnished and using that trait all to get rid of the very force that allowed him to create the Mending Rune of Perfect Order in the first place. Thanks for the video!
Goddamn, my job is hell during Thanksgiving week. Now, finally, I have unwound and relaxed enough where I can watch what I expect to be one of my favorite lore videos yet.
Tarnished Archaeologist is so nice to listen to, so easy to understand. I would like to hear TA cover something historical that can be hard for non-experts to understand, like the American Civil War, including context and precedents. People without particular interest in history can be drawn into it through FromSoft games. It happened to me!!!
I'll suggest a band for you: Sabaton. Almost all their music is based on real history. Start with my favorite Christmas story: "No Bullets Fly." They also have a channel where a historian named Indy explains the history behind their music (no, he doesn't melt any German Nationalists with ancient Hebrew artifacts).
amazing video! can't wait for the next one....I love learning something about real life history and then using this knowledge to understand the game better. awesome
Love the whole video but i disagree with the last conclusion, I think goldmask refers to the adoration of the sun as the way to fix the golden order. Adoration of the sun is the perfect faith, is adoration of life with the contrivances of religion.
A lot of the confusion surrounding your final thoughts could be cleared up if you talked about Goldmask's relation to the Greater Will, and/or the Elden Ring's relation to the Greater Will (or at least how I presume you view their relation.) I was surprised to not hear any commentary on the GW's original intent and use of the Elden Ring, and how the Perfect Order rune fits into place, an expansion of what you already touched on. I would have loved to hear that from you, even as a repeat from your previous videos. Regardless of that, I was very happy to learn about Ibn Arabi, excited to read more about him. Thank you for what you do
Imagine being the caveman who saw an aurora borealis and spent his life trying to explain what it looked like to other cavemen
I imagine that after inevitably failing, he spent the rest of his days T posing
Green flame in the sky.
An Aurora Borealis? At this part of the year? At this time of day? In this part of the Lands Between? Localized entirely in your Round Table!?
@@cpman-zz8xzYes!
@@cpman-zz8xzyes.
Personally I never liked the idea that somehow Goldmask wants to end free will and sees it as an impurity. He's the one who goes out of his way to gaze upon the stars for an answer, something the Golden Order generally dislikes, and he makes constant use of his free will to find the truth. It's also stated that his mending rune was "found" by him, not "created" as it is in the case of Fia and the Dung Eater, two characters who wish to force their wills and ideologies upon the world because they believe they know better than others. Goldmask never does that, he doesn't even talk. I think the idea of him wanting to rid the world of free will not only goes completely against him as a character, but also against the description of his mending rune.
To me it seems more like Goldmask understands that the gods are no better than men, and for that reason they shouldn't be able to govern the world and the golden order at all. If the golden order is the rules and laws of the world, then why would a person that has feelings and emotional outbursts and flaws like any other human but just so happens to be very hard to kill be allowed to pluck the concept of death from the given ruleset for their own benefit? Why should anybody be allowed to mess with the elden ring and its natural law? I believe that's the real Goldmask ending. The rune also seems to shield the Elden Ring, almost as if it was supposed to keep its restored perfection safe and let nobody meddle with its power anymore as to not plunge the world into chaos once more.
this! honestly I love TA's findings but this time, the logical connection between the scientific revelations, the free will and the sacrifice was too opaque for me. since the Goldmask was so clearly inspired by the thinkers of the Renaissance who reformed the hypocritical and tyrannic medieval Catholic church (in adidition to Copernicus n Newton I clearly see Martin Luther here as well) why try and stretch his concept onto some Blood and soil ideology in the last second all of the sudden? It looked more like "wait wait do you remember those guys who also were all about sun and being perfect? cause I do!". to me, the Perfect Order looks more like the turn to the New Time for the Lands Between. "okay, stop dancing around a large tree since there's no magic you can do with it anymore, go and study the world with your weak human hands since this is what pleases our God". there's literally nothing to the Goldmask's whole character which would imply he's into some encompassing desubjectifying "fascist" narrative; quite the contrary, he's all about opposing the imposed pseudoscientific narrative. a shame a researcher as conscious as TA happened to be that bold in his interpretation
I think this is the cannon ending ngl
Yeah TA backpedal the ending for some reason contradicting the philosophy of Goldmask.
I think you more or less nailed it. At first, the idea of freezing creation in place looks like Goldmask's intention, but as you point out, that eradicates free will. Life as we define it, really. It seems like Goldmask found the answer by eradicating his own ego, allowing the player to carry the Mending Rune. If divinity is brought low by human aspects such as desire, ambition, and thirst for power, it is more divine to relinquish yourself to the powers that be. Goldmask leads by example, allowing his own pathetic pupil to shove him off a cliff. The Rune probably wasn't even present until he began to fall.
Appreciate this take a lot, and it underlines how interpretation is ER's most powerful tool.
I always thought this interpretation of Goldmask and his mending rune were pretty self evident, guess nothing is immune to stretches and leaps in logic.
As for the nuance of what Goldmask's mending rune symbolizes, I've always interpreted it as an isolation of the laws of the world- not only from mortal man's meddling, but also from the *Greater Will* and any other divine presence. To bring about an era of agnosticism and scientific inquiry where even the Greater Will and the Two Fingers cannot directly influence mankind's progress.
Tarnished: Aurora Borealis? At this time of day, at this time of year, localized within the Mountaintop of the Giants?
Goldmask: ...
Tarnished: May I see it?
Goldmask: ...
Goldmask: T
I think I'm going insane - I've seen so many Steamed Hams memes everywhere I can see 'em even under Elden Ring's lore videos...
Goldmask: "wiggles finger"
Regardless of my build or what ending I'm aiming for, I always end up doing Goldmask's questline. Character never says a word and is still one of the more interesting NPCs From has created.
Hopefully we get even more interesting NPC's with the DLC! The unnamed demigods who were killed during the Night of the Black Knives for example.
Because gold mask is one of the few religious characters in souls series that is so loyal to his faith that he actually questions it and is willing to acknowledge it’s flaws to improve upon them
@@deepsoul8034by removing free will
Imagine fixing the world by T-posing in front of God
@@rianrodrigues8195 The Sigma Male Goldset
Not sure I agree with this interpretation of Goldmask's sun fetish. I saw it more that he was trying to achieve what Ranni wanted, just less literally: place the Elden Ring above the heads of everyone and everything, a symbolic sun, untouchable but vital. With Radagon destroyed and Marika reduced to only a vessel, there can be no God but the Order itself.
Granted, this interpretation does create some thematic overlap with Ranni's, so I'm kinda into the idea of Goldmask going for something different - I just don't think "cessation of free will" necessarily lines up.
It seems like Ranni and Goldmask are approaching the same problem from different directions, and come up with different solutions to it.
Ranni overthrows the old order, establishes a new one, and ensures her new order is completely out of reach and unobservable, therefore preventing anyone from messing with it. This leads to uncertainty and mystery, but also free will.
Goldmask creates a perfect barrier around the order, preventing it from being messed with, but leaving it still within reach and able to be observed. This leads to continued study and observation, but also retains free will.
The main difference is that Ranni seeks to completely remove order, so as to eliminate the primary means of justification for the horrendous acts the Golden Order, Two Fingers, and so on commit and believes more uncertainty an acceptable price, while Goldmask wants to ensure continued study of the order through observing the Elden Ring remains possible even if he knows firsthand how people can use it as justification for horrible things (hunters of Those Who Live in Death). Ranni values personal freedom more, Goldmask values understanding/learning more.
everyone will be "GROSSLY INCANDESCENT"
I think it's natural to have some thematic overlap with Ranni's ending as they are both tackling the same issue
@@gunnarschlichting9886 Except he realised that " the fundamentals of Order" possessed no such justification. All the hunters wanted was a " great evil" to contend with. There is nothing in the Elden Ring that gives one incentive to hunt Those Who Live In Death down.
As such, I'd wager he cares more about both than she does. After all, how can " free will" reign, in a world where the stars once again guide fate?
@diamondarmy5546 similar, but not the same, I'd say. Ranni is an absolute libertarian (not in the ideological sense): she wants everyone to be able to decide their own fate, their own destiny without the interference of any higher power above them. Her concern is not the elden ring (evidenced by the fact that she doesn't destroy it and instead takes it with her), it is the power it holds over the decisions of individuals.
Goldmask's concern on the other hand is the misuse of the elden ring by marika and Co. and the instability of the world that their fickleness creates. Goldmask is instead placing a barrier between the elden ring and the rest of the world - forever preventing it from bring altered in the way marika did.
This is the one time I think you’re entirely off the mark: Goldmask isn’t a fascist, because he’s a holist who wants a non-anthropomorphic god. He doesn’t want mortals imprisoned but gods inhuman, inaccessible - He’s a kind of Protestant to the current Golden Order’s church.
And remember: “The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters.
How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the
ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their
foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with.
Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?”
The one thing we know about his ideology with perfect clarity is that he seeks to include, not exclude; he is precisely the critic of the Golden Order’s need to subjugate, because he sees the Order as capable of holistically including everything.
This guy knows whats up.
I believe he was just comparing how the desire for absolute order leads to striping people of agency. He wasnt calling goldmask a one to one facsist, but telling how order relates to fascism.
You are right that Goldmask believes the golden order hunters have lost their way, but his rune doesn’t actually do anything to assimilate those who live in death into the order. In his ending the Elden Ring remains completely unchanged except for a barrier that prevents anyone from tampering with it ever again. It’s my take that he is a GO fundamentalist until the end, sure he doesn’t approve of the cruelty that D and the other hunters employ, but he is focused solely on preserving the order in perpetuity. Just my take though.
The Order Healing flavor text, to me- only reinforces the interpretation that Goldmask's solution is the removal of free will. "All the good and the great wanted, in their
foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with."- here, he's clearly saying that desire and ambition is the evil to be contended. This is congruent with overarching themes of ambition within the game and what dire consequences they can have.
The closing question he poses; "Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?”, is him musing if the same element of reckless ambition (aka free will) can be applied to the supposed untouchable Order and the gods therein. What I think Goldmask finally studies in the Mountaintops is the Greater Will, and interprets it's fathomless goal in The Lands Between. As such, Goldmask's Mending Rune of Perfect Order completely removes the free will of all sapient beings in The Lands Between- effectively allowing complete subservience for the Greater Will to enact it's machinations.
People debating religion in a fictional world, while they live sinful and corrupt lives in the real world. Nice.
One thing to note, Coryhn isn't the killer. Goldmask will always die regardless if Coryhn took the tonic and forgets about the master or not. Haven't tried killing him yet.
What I think took goldmasks life is the mending rune itself. It's the same with Fia that she dies regardless if D is around or not.
Why would mending runes need a life? Well, from what is it made if not runes of their makers?
Thanks I was confused by the assertion that Coryhn was the killer. Thought I somehow missed something obvious!
Brother Coryhn after farum azula and goldmask's death:
At Leyndell, Ashen Capital (if the Tonic was NOT offered)
Oh, it's you.
I've finally come to understand.
The master was nothing more than a madman.
Enchanted by a vain and ruinous delusion, he rejected the perfection of the Golden Order,
seeking to supplant our glorious faith with his own!
Could there be a more pitiable comedy?
Look at it. The culmination of perfection, burning, before our very eyes!
Ha... ha ha ha...
Wait, you can make Corhyn take the potion? He always just turns me down when I offer it to him.
Well, Runes are the essence of life....
At the same time. If Goldmask's perfect order is an order without free will, then he himself cannot be alive, for he has freewill. It's his freewill that creates the mending rune after all.
But all runes comes from life, mending runes shouldn't be any different I think.
Dung Eater: Thousands will inherit the curse, along with their children, and their children’s children
Shabriri: May chaos take the world!
Goldmask: 🫵🏻
I swear I was expecting something like Goldmask: (stonks)
Lol that would fit-ish
Shabriri was right
Dung Eater was right
Goldmask was
I love how every time I watch one of your videos, I not only get a fresh perspective on the game, but I also learn something new about the real world!
I interpreted his rune to be about removing the meddling of gods, who were no better than men, from the equation, as symbolised by the unbroken circle around the Elden Ring, shutting out outside influences, not about removing the free will if mortals.
Yes, it honestly goes so much more in sync with the character's portrayal. This is how I understood it as well.
Almost exactly my same views, I see it as Goldmask shielding the world from all the 'Outer Gods'.
Kind of a miss from Tarnished Archeologist here to be honest. There's nothing about removing free will and fascism. His mending rune protects the Elden Ring from people messing with it, like how Marika removed the Rune of Death on whim because she thought it would be cool if no one ever died. It's what the rune's description means, gods are just people with a too much power to fuck everything up.
Bear in mind that the "Gods" being referenced in his questline and rune are ones like Marika and the demigods, not the Greater Will. He still holds the Greater Will as divine and perfect.
@@rwberger6not only that he is directly guided by the greater will and it empowers him, just as it does with dung eater and Fia, to create mending runes
Just wanted to say:
Perfect Order doesn't necessarily mean fascism.
In Goldmask's case, I think it is pretty clearly an acceptance of physics based determinism over the idea that gods, or man, or beast have any true control over destiny. The dragon order fell, the beast order fell, the golden order fell, ... there are no real gods, just powerful beings who have temporary control, then fall to ruin. The only thing that hasn't fallen is the Laws of reality.
Goldmask's Mending Rune basically creates an atheistic order: No more imperfect gods, only the Perfect Order of the universe itself.
this was my reading of his ending as well. i TA likes to read a bit more dramatically into possible interpretations, tho we just admit they're all equally valid.
The question then would be, how is Goldmask's ending different from Ranni's? Her quest makes a huge deal of the fact that she opposes the Outer Gods, and wants to remove them from the world entirely. Goldmask is evidently seen by the Greater Will as less radical and dangerous.
@@TriforceWisdom64 I don't really know, especially with the translation quirks of her ending.
If I had to come up with something, her order still worships Ranni/the moon, but she is leaving The Lands Between to go to space to return in the far future, right?
So Ranni's ending isn't really atheism, it's a conversion to a single inactive celestial god instead of many active terrestrial gods.
When it comes to freedom, I would guess Ranni's order would be more chaotic-ly "free" with the power vacuum she left, but self-determination could lead to free democratic societies eventually. Goldmask's Order is literally perfect though.
Ranni's Order is taking the hands off the wheel, while Goldmask's is doing the same thing but the car also knows where to go.
@GeneralTaco155555a That makes enough sense. I'm hung up on the pro-Goldmask argument I see that his order is "perfect." Fromsoft never includes a perfect ending; just look at Sekiro. Goldmask must have some kind of flaw or point of major contention, and "everything's great but there's no God" doesn't seem consistent with From's MO.
@@TriforceWisdom64 maybe the flaw is that everyone just becomes mute hippies 😅
Gonna disagree with a lot of this. Point by point;
1. Goldmask is not a religious ascetic, he is a savant mathematician, specifically in the tradition of greek philosophers who did not entirely distinguish religion, metaphysics, philosophy and maths. His muteness, lack of concern for appearance, and repetitive motions, as well as his ability to spot and solve problems within his field are because he is such a savant.
2. The elden ring and its order is a metonym for the laws of nature/physics. Each group seeks to define and enforce a specific version, each adding or subtracting. From this, Goldmask identified these issues: The current implementation was retroactively altered, the natural laws of death were amputated when Marika removed the rune of death, the gap left unmitigated. If it were a formula, it would no longer be solvable as a key part of the equation has been removed. Additionally, Marikas manipulations to unify Lucaria with the Golden Order (hence why her identity as Radagon needed solving to Goldmask) showed she was deliberately manipulating the true order. Finally, these combined dialectically imply that if order can be made less by removing, it can be made not only whole but MORE. That there is a true, essential form of order beyond any limited implementation. That ignorance creates flawed versions, but true knowledge might realize its entirety.
3. While I agree with your statements on why he went north, it is important to note that the aurora is caused by solar events. Symbolically the connection to primordial currents and thus sorcery indicates sorcery is a part of this true order. They are not incompatible, they are correlated parts of the whole. That each and every group and religion has been working off a limited section of it. Even rot - an essential element of biological life cycles, is a part - deliberately neglected because it was unsavoury, rebounding back into the world more intrusively and unable to join within the full "formula", violently and imperfectly grafting itself into the equations.
Goldmask is a mathematician and scientist. His mending rune may only restore the elden ring to its first version as Marika defined it under the greater will, but his repairs allow further cycles to follow in his footsteps, learn the essential truths of reality and progress towards a final full version, without the regressive interventions and redactions that harm this progress.
If Goldmask's rune prevents meddling how can the removed runes be reintroduced?
Like all of the soulsborne games, it's cyclical. Nothing gold can last. Hence why there's a different depiction of an elden ring in farum azula, why the greater will has a whole complex system for selecting bearers of the ring, and why it's selecting new empyereans to succeed. The ring is the most powerful thing in the world, but can be twisted by the likes of dung eater because it needs envoys and representatives and followers. If those followers change their beliefs, if the social order it creates and requires falls, it falls too, to be restored in a new form according to the beliefs of the next great power.
Goldmasks rune is the next great order, but not as a vastly different shift, but as systemic reform according to the ideological foundations it was 'supposed' to have. His greatest change is that it is no longer able to be partially modified: isolating runes individually. It may be REPLACED, but only in its entirety.
Think of it like a scientific model of physics that is not solely representational, but also modifies reality according to what laws it defines and how they must function. These theories of everything are expected to be developed and improved upon with knowledge. Marika deliberately removed a law after the current theory was complete, and it all fells apart from there. She wasn't correcting a mistake, it was removing knowledge to prevent her own death, in the process destabilising the whole system.
Goldmask discovered what she did, why his understanding of the whole had been flawed due to this missing knowledge and how to repair and prevented further incidents; but he also saw that each theory was a partial version of a whole; sorcery is not incompatible because marika decided so, but because she did not incorporate it, they ARE compatible, everything is, once understood how, part of this single truth. His era will end, but he hopes without anyone meddling with the current progress, the next version will add more, and so on.
@@nbmoleminer5051 The Rune Of Death is reintroduced before you put the Mending Rune; your agency isn't required. It had to be sealed for a reason.
@@alyseleem2692 Why doesn't it appear in the Elden Ring in the ending cutscenes then? it is however in the Farum Azula iteration at the bottom of the middle spiral.
@@nbmoleminer5051 I saw it as being in the upper section of midline, actually, but you're right. I don't quite remember seeing it in the Elden Ring.
Still, " the Rune Of Death is unbound". It is in effect; the Golden Order is finished. No matter the ending, that stays true.
"The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters.
How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the
ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their
foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with.
Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?"
This is, perhaps, the most interesting quote in all the game to me.
I think it's great because it touches on the IRL belief that Evil itself doesn't actually exist and is merely the absence of Good. This has been a teaching varying in importance ever since Plato, most notably through the Neo-Platonists and Saint Augustine.
If the Order is truly perfect and all-encompassing, to place things like the Omens or Those Who Live In Death outside of the Order is, as the text for that incantation imply, just the good and great wanting an absolute evil to stand against. At worst those things we do not understand are only mis-steps or misalignment with the perfection of the Order, hence their delerious effects on people and the world (see Godwyn's death curse spreading like a cancer). But Godwyn's deathroot is not an absolute evil seeking to destroy. It's just something out of step with the laws of reality, and so treating it with hate, anger, persecution, is ridiculous and only serving the foolish desire to have an absolute evil to contend with. Which is a non-starter of course.
The Perfected Golden Order is probably the most interesting look into like, scholastic christian tinged religion we've gotten thus far in any of the soulsbornering games. Especially since there's an ending where you can explicitly align yourself with Gold Mask who is seeking to repair it and restore a holism that does not rely on singling out enemies or victims or sinners.
Here's something I always found very deeply interesting: Goldmask's Mending Rune was "Discovered", lending to the idea that it was a fact/principle/truth that existed independent of him and that all he did was find it. This further supports the ideas set forth in this video regarding Goldmask as a composite of mulitple great scholars. Here's the thing though: Dung Eater and Fia's Runes are both "Gestated". As in they are creating them and giving birth to them. Which holds up if you look at the genital mutilation and shirikodama elements of Dung Eater and the "laying" with the dead to become pregnant with their souls that Fia gets up to. Both the gestated runes came from people who were....taking in the essence.... of others.
Doesn't the Order Healing description undermine your interpretation of Goldmask's ultimate intentions? It suggests that Goldmask doesn't believe in the idea that deviation from order is evil. It seems more aligned with the idea that deviation from true order is impossible and that perceived deviations are derived from the fickle drama of the terrestrial gods. In this context, Perfect Order is the ideology of order that transcends contradictions implicit to terrestrial logic and institutions.
This would also be my interpretation of it. The frail and pacifist figure of Goldmask doesn't seem to align with something as simple as "removal of free will". The idea that he glimpsed something more complex and transcendental, beyond the fallible gods that ruled the lands between feels right.
Completely agree. The popular dichotomy between Goldmask and Ranni as representing Determinism vs Free will is both too shallow a reading for a Fromstoft game and also has little textual support.
@@thesmokeyhoe True, although I think a lot of it is trying to make a distinction between Ranni and Goldmask's intentions - which there are few. Both strive for an order that is no longer influenced by mortals. Primary difference is that Goldmask believes that this transcendent order was intended by the Greater Will, and the current order can be reformed by returning to those basic principles but maintaining the overall structure. Ranni, on the other hand, seeks to end the dominion of the Greater Will completely, switching to an order of the moon and the cosmos. Goldmask and Ranni intend the same idea, but Goldmask prefers reform and simply less autonomy/power of the elites while Ranni creates a revolution that uproots the entire thing.
Another way to put it is I think Goldmask would agree with Miriel: "Heresy is not native to the world. All things can be conjoined!"
@monsieurdorgat6864 I definetly agree with you on the Miriel/Goldmask parallel. Though I question the degree to which Ranni's ending actually amounts to a rejection of the Greater Will. It seems to me that given her status as an Empyrean, the Greater Will would still accept an order of the Cosmos. I agree with other content creators who have argued that the GW doesn't care specifically about the Golden Order but merely seeks to establish an order as such (further evidenced by the fact that both the Fia and Dungeater's ending count as mending the order even though they fall outside of the "Golden Order"). To me, only the frenzied flame ending amounts to a rejection of order as such and a rebuke of the Greater Will's designs (to the extent that these are knowable to us). My view of Ranni actually is that she's entirely self-interested and cares more about her own ascension to godhood on her own terms than any other more lofty goal. But that's another debate entirely.
I've always imagined Goldmask's perfect order as less of a mega fascist totalitarian regime, and more of a "no one can interfere with the Elden Ring anymore", literally putting the Ring out of anyone's reach, so that no one will be able to undo the original order of creation made by the Greater Will.
Yeah I strongly disagree with the whole "Law End is no more free will and is absolute dogma and control" vibe. I genuinely think all the new ring did was lobotomize the Gods so they can't fuck with the Order anymore.
I thought it would be restoring the ring then just keeping it put together. Make it too difficult to break.
Been a while since you covered good ol' Elden Ring. Nice to be back!
That said, I think that we fundamentally disagree about a few things; most importantly, because of this.
"The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters.
How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the
ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their
foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with.
Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?"
The very idea that Order requires the conflict generated by the Golden Order under Marika's tutelage,according to Goldmask; does not exist.
Also, I think there is a key misunderstanding of of the Mending Rune's description here; the "fly in the ointment" isn't merely free will; it is specifically the will of the gods, no better than men.
Is the specific flaw with the aspect of Will?
No. As you know, however fickle a man can be,their actions still lie within the chain of Casuality, guided by the stars. Will has not offended Order before, because Will has already existed within Order's confines since before Marika was ever born.
"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold."
"The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return."
So,why is it reprehensible that gods have the same will as men?
Simple; gods must be held to a higher standard than men; their Will posessess far-reaching effects upon the world; their privilege allows them to change it's laws to their whims. The entirety of the Golden Order was born on the whim that Death be rejected; by the whim of Marika, who rejected the design written by the Greater Will itself, instead redesigning it around her own ideals in her utter hubris.
The Mending Rune of Perfect Order is not a rune influencing Will, precisely; it is a shield against further interference. Rather than adding to the Elden Ring's design, it surrounds it; a barrier. A bulwark. No God shall ever have the privilege of changing the Ring ever again!
The Erdtree has burned,as seen in the eyes of the prophets.
Death has returned.
Order is complete; no further addition or modification is required. The sin of the gods no better than men is recitifed.
Thus, Order is once again perfect,and to be sealed.
I feel the truth is in the very name of the rune. "Perfect Order" is a misnomer. Order can never be perfected and to begin an Age of Perfect Order means to assert that things should remain the way they are regardless of any developments along the way. Be it in the form of new life or new thought.
Let's say Goldmask's world of Perfect Order comes to be and the new ruleset for the world is established. By this I mean, the type of life that is deemed okay, the types of death/undeath, the creatures established as falling within and under grace. What happens years down the line when someone has a new potentially better idea for how life/order should work? When there are new lifeforms which don't fall under the established grace of "Perfect Order?"
Does this "Perfect Order" change to accommodate those new lifeforms and schools of thought? If it does, doesn't that establish in the minds of everyone under this age of "Perfect Order" that it isn't REALLY perfect? Wouldn't that sow unrest in the people?
If it doesn't change to accommodate those lifeforms or new thought is that not by definition fascistic? Could it even BE changed seeing as how the God of the land is the only one who can put those changes into motion and Goldmask's quest is in part about removing the influence of the fickle Gods from the order?
Just my take on it. I think too many people are reading this questline at face value and only using what we can see in game without thinking about it's implications further down the line.
@@ATC43 The key word in the description is "ATTEMPT". It's a word that implies agency, that the rune is capable not just of immediately applying an effect, but that it will continuously do so. It suggests that it's an ongoing process: the only truly "perfect" order is one that changes to accommodate what is new. Instead of sticking to a rigidly defined order of the sort Marika attempted to enforce, Goldmask's version of the Elden Ring will be ever-evolving, ever attempting to refine itself, to adapt to new developments.
@@ATC43 You and too many other people are trying to twist the meaning of the Mending Rune to find a catch.
Order isn't perfect. That is what Goldmask realised; it had lost Death, an integral part of the divine mechanism ordained by the Greater Will. By returning it, it is perfected. The only reason Those Who Live In Death exist is because of this mistake, and even then, Goldmask knows this is through no fault of their own, and instead looks into the root of the problem. If he thought the Order was " perfect" ,he'd be out there hunting skeletons like the rest of them.
In the same vein, if any " new" class of being emerges to " threaten" Order as you say, the response would be the same. They would be treated well because that's what Goldmask would do, but people would also have to look for the root of the problem. And I say " if" because the only reason such new classes of being appear is due to the shenanigans involving the removal of a Rune of cosmic law, something which is no longer possible. All " new" classes of beings will be born under Perfect Order, and according to it's laws, which are the laws we already take for granted.
Perfect Order, Order as intended by the Greater Will, is "perfect" in the sense that all the laws of the world fit together in a divine mechanism. It is Marika that made the mistake of removing one of them, in an attempt to " perfect" the world into a deathless paradise of her own design. But Order was already " perfect"; Order already ran the way the Greater Will intended, and was in no need of correction.
Do you think anyone should have the opportunity to change these fundamental laws like Marika did? Do you perceive that as some privilege we possess?
Well, no. You can't tell gravity to leave; that's why you look at birds and then build a plane. You can't tell disease to go away; that's why you make medicine. You can't tell Death to go away; that's why you have to make the best of it till it comes.
The Perfect Order doesn't need to change to accommodate new things; things will exist within it regardless of the interference of Man or God. Before, Marika had to fight to impose her vision of deathlessness as something people must not only accept, but get used to; Erdtree burial, Erdtree rebirth, feeding the Minor Erdtrees, the works; here, the laws of the world run themselves.
Death. Birth. Rot. The stars of Fate. No one holds them anymore. No one can " change them up". No one will ever have the license to use them to impose their own vision upon the rest of the world. All are part of the grand scheme.
Heresy is but a contrivance; all things can be conjoined. All things find their root in the Elden Ring.
Does that seem too difficult to understand?
Baby come quick, a new Tarnished Archeologist video dropped AND ITS ON FREAKING GOLDMASK
…
Bro i spilled my metal everywhere, i was eating when i noticed the notification, saw your comment and now im commenting from the shadow of the erdtree, sheers
*praises the sun in hebrew*
THE FREAKING EVER-BRILLIANT GOLDMASK*
@@gzrt3785yo what
I'm so glad you make us wait less for new content than FromSoft. This channel has increased my enjoyment of this game so much. Thank you for all the amazing content!
Hopefully a teaser/announcement at TGA carries us over into 2024 and the 2 year anniversary.
Go play some of the older games if youre craving that hard for fromsoft content lmao
Might i suggest sekiro? Im very biased towards it.
@@m0nookiE but I played those too ... What now? Instructions unclear
@@sethrose1632 sable, tunic, new games with world to explore. Im assuming thats what youre looking for right? Gameplay is lacking in those though.
I always interpreted this completely the opposite: that the problem of perfect order is that there were those who were above the order (the gods no better than men), essentially saying that in order to create a perfect system, all must be equally subject to its rules, because even the gods were morally fallible. The real life comparison being moving from monarchs (who were equally fallible, no better than any other man) to democracy or other systems in which the leaders are held more accountable.
Yeah, that final take-away really clashed with everything else we know about Goldmask. We know from item descriptions that Goldmask lamented the persecution of Those Who Live in Death, and we know that this persecution came from the gods and human adherents to the Golden Order. So in Goldmask's view, persecution of conflicting elements was a flaw that needed fixing. A flaw that he pinned squarely on the gods themselves. Would not Goldmask's perfect order be one that dethroned the monarchs and ended their ongoing persecution entirely?
Anyway, it kinda felt like this video lost sight of the character's stated beliefs in the last few sentences there.
I’m not sure that lines up with perfect order. Holding monarchs accountable doesn’t mean people won’t be sporadic and do spontaneous things. Free will and spontaneity is the enemy of order, and perfect order.
The golden order tried to control order through causality, regression, and removing destiny and the future from reality. Marika removed destined death (the future/destiny) to make her order, but things outside of control still happen , per the “Greater will”. It’s basically a cosmic being trying to insert its will against human’s VS human’s free will.
As TA said. Gold mask’s dogmatic arse wants to remove people’s free will, so only the greater will is in charge. No more free will, only the greater will for perfect order.
But removing Marika’s free will is also removing Marika’s free will. Which goes against their central dogma. That she is the true god. Why would true god need to lose its free will? Thats heresy.
@@vigil2249 I disagree, in the order healing incantation it says that Goldmask "lamented at what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the
ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their
foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with."
Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?
this implies that Goldmask did not agree with the mindless persecution of "those who live in death" reinforcing the idea that Goldmask does not believe in blind faith of the golden order which is shown by his incantations which require int and faith and also that corryhn labels him a madman for not believing in the perfection of the golden order
@@Pillowcasethegreat The description of that particular incantation still fits under TA's interpretation of Goldmask's motives. His lamentations aren't over the persecutions, but the waste of "learning and learnedness." In this interpretation, Goldmask dusn't give a dusty toot about Those Who Live In Death, but rather laments his peers who (in Goldmask's eyes) abandoned the pursuit of understanding in favor of bloodlust and scapegoats. Their free will led them to abandon the pursuit of perfect order.
@@Pillowcasethegreatyep, goldmask literally defends the idea that the order cannot be perfect because it doesn't include and incompass all. This means that he defends the idea of criticizing the order and correcting it, to a point where it applies to everyone and cannot be messed with by anyone, being eternal and with order. This means that all he cares is about having rules that apply to everyone equally. What that order is is irrelevant, as long as it constant and eternal.
The last portion seems like a big leap of logic.
Goldmask references the gods and demigods more then the concept of freedom or their own free will.
He effectively saw the local Pharaoh and decided that the church was good enough alone.
The sun being an idol of free will fits perfectly with the miquella of the dlc. In castle sol there is a npc spirit apologizing to miquella for not being able to block out the sun. We now know that miquella would «steal hearts» i.e. divest his followers of their free will, to create his perfect order of «compassion». Thus it makes sense that he would want to limit/block out the sun.
I don't believe he is trying to rid the world of free will he is trying to proof the flaws of the powers of those who control the order.
Another thing which creates a 'halo' in relation to the Sun is a total eclipse. In the North of Elden Ring this imagery exists at Castle Sol where they're devoted to that image of the eclipse. Similarly the weapon 'Eclipse Shotel' displays very similar imagery of said halo around it's edge. The banner of Castle Sol also shows a stark eclipse with powerful halo imagery.
I was thinking something similar, goldmask (the sun) and his revelation in the mountaintops (a land of sorcery and the moon) could be why his "complete" faith looks like an eclipse.
If we end up seeing miquella's eclipse in dlc, I wouldn't be surprised if it looked a bit like goldmask's rune encompassing the elden ring, especially since we can already see hints of the elden ring on the moon itself.
Edit: and miquella is already combining carian iconography with golden order fundamentalism to make the haligtree faith. It seems that both goldmask and miquella are taking very different paths towards the same goal, whatever that really means for the world
I thought the same, there's a lot of similarities to be drawn between the assessment and solutions of Miquella and Goldmask. There's lore that ties the symbology of an eclipse to Miquella, and I'm struck by how the protective halo around the ring described in Goldmasks ending seems very similar to the outer-god warding magic of Miquella.
@@thomasmack6451Yes Indeed. Goldmask's insight does also speak of the 'fickleness of the gods'.
Goldmask never doubts, that is Corhyn. Goldmask becomes excited at the revelation. He's a great character. I love that he meets the criterion for being a practicing Two Fingers. His being outside of the lands between where the church of the two fingers grew, he had followers, he waves two fingers about frantically, there is somebody reading his fingers, doing so provides revelation, and he foresaw the coming guidance of grace.
goldmask did doubt, he ask the question.
He actually becomes depressed. If you are online, you can go to another world (invade or assist someone) and go to where he was in Lyndell. You will see a phantom on him in an agonizing position
In what world did you dig up the thought "free will is the fly in the ointment"? The mending rune of perfect order kinda makes the Elden Ring untouchable. So not even gods could influence or break it. He frees the Elden Ring from the influence of the gods, who are no better than men.
I was so excited when I saw this pop up in my feed, but I can't help but walk away disappointed. The historical comparisons are on point as always, and you have some really good analysis, but then the ending absolutely destroys the entire video. Your idea of Goldmask as some sociopathic would-be tyrant requires completely backpedaling on everything we know about his character and the textual evidence presented in-game; as other people have explained in the comments, Goldmask's Mending Rune isn't about eliminating free will, but quite transparently about holding the gods accountable for their actions and preventing them from interfering with the Elden Ring the way Marika did. It's not about imposing tyranny, it's about _preventing_ it by ensuring the gods are just as accountable for their actions as mortals.
To somehow read Goldmask- a character explicitly described as being horrified that the other Golden Order Fundamentalists have taken to persecuting groups like Those Who Live In Death, and who believes that absolute evil is inherently not an aspect of Order- as a fascist requires that you ignore absolutely everything about his character presented in-game. Maybe I'm missing something, but it feels a lot like you had a preconceived notion about Goldmask's ending, found contradictory information to that interpretation, and then twisted the evidence to suit your beliefs instead of adjusting beliefs to match evidence. And that is absolutely NOT something that a theorist _or_ an archaeologist should be doing.
To understand Goldmask his quesline you need to understand two things. First, he was a fundamentalist, which means he believed in the perfection of the golden order. Where he deviated from his fundamentalist peers is that when presented with undeniable evidence of the flaws of the golden order he didn't deny it or seek to destroy the contradictions that exposed the order, he sought to understand them. Because if it wasn't perfect, then it wasn't the "true" golden order. This is most likely what got him banished as Tarnished.
Second, he was brilliant and approached his faith like it was a math formula. Think of it like this: The perfect golden order is "3". The formula of the current golden order he believes in is "1 + X = 3". Only when he actually looks he sees that the current golden order comes out to "1+ X = 2".
This is the point in the game where you first find him, puzzling over why the formula of the current golden order is not resulting in perfection ("3"). As you follow his questline he determines that the formula itself is flawed and missing something. You discovering the secret of the statue is him discovering that his formula was missing a key piece. Instead of "X" being "2", it was actually "1". He was essentially trying to "1 + 1 = 3" and wondering why it wasn't working.
So he corrects his understanding of the golden order to make it perfect, changing it to "1 + (X+1) = 3" by factoring in the new information (that the Gods were prone to the same flaws as mortals) and generates his mending rune of perfect order.
We're eating good with tarnished archaeology content this week
Awesome to get new TA videos so close together.
Yes!!!!!! So glad you’re covering Elden Ring again! Never clicked on something this fast! Thank you!!!
Exact same here! :D
"I am in love with no other than myself, and my very separation is my union ...
I am my beloved and my lover; I am my knight and my maiden."
-Ibn Arabi
Rather than a true removal of free-will, you could instead focus more on Golden Order Fundamentalism's focus on INT and mathematics and say that Goldmask's Perfect Order would be one of immutable law. Basically, the world we live in right now may in-fact constitute Perfect Order, where all things are determined by cause and effect and the predictable interactions of elementary particles.
In that sense, our current human free-will in real life operates in accordance with Perfect Order, and so we may say that rather than Goldmask's Order robbing the people of the Land's Between of free will, it would instead systematize it: Free-will incorporated into Order, rather than removed from it. Essentially, his Perfect Order would be to bring about a fully deterministic universe.
How do you think that stacks up with Ranni's ending, which I feel accomplishes the same without the need for the existence of a dogmatic set of rules in the TLB?
@@ATC43 I'd say Ranni's is the more ambitious but less safe option. Perfect Order attempts to refine the Elden Ring's laws to create an intricate system of perfect interlocking logic in the image of what the Golden Order was MEANT to be. Whether or not that's a good things depends on what exactly Goldmask envisions as the Golden Order's proper functioning.
In contrast, Ranni seems to forgo the Elden Ring entirely. She rejects the system outright and purposefully plunges the world into the unknown. Whether or not that's a good thing is entirely up in the air until anything good or bad actually happens.
@@ATC43 I see one more important difference: His rune does seem that he imprisons 1 individual in particular: whatever is left of Marika is needed for it to work. She is a statue, but also, might be still somewhat alive and sentient after being rebuild? I have no fucking idea, but its possible?
And that is what I would perceive as the one fatal flaw in his rune / ideology - the subjugation of the god.
But even that interpretation kinda relies on the premise that Marika does not wish to be alive anymore at this point in time.
Ranni in contrast grants Marika a dignified end on her own terms and then attempts to create a new order, with similiar goals than Goldmask.
In that sense I am with Ranni. I will take a larger risk and effort, in order to be merciful to everybody, without exception.
oh, except Godwyn the golden I suppose 😶
Finally some lore on my second favorite half naked dude in a mask
who is the first ?
@@Stoidat Dagoth Ur?
@@halkiierid4084 “welcome moon and star”
@@halkiierid4084 I Don't think ES lore is his interest, based on his Profile Picture and name :)
@@Stoidat What a grand and intoxicating innocence; we're all interested in Dagoth Ur
See this is interesting. I always read goldmask as someone who was saying, see the gods are just as bad as us, we should try to be more philosophically consistent.
Not necessarily an anti human thinker.
Interesting stuff!
i will forever love you for just the fact that you quoting Ibn Arabi. the dude was goated. was literally a real life Goldmask
The fly in the ointment is not "free will on men" but the sheer absolut fact that gods are not perfect, nor is the greater Will. You got that wrong sir.
The only issue I have with this video is that you don’t show the cave painting. The only evidence I could find of cave art depicting Aurora Borealis comes from Pinterest.
lol i was bothered by that as well great vid tho
Google macaronis you can find articles showing it
If you look up the academic paper "Changing perceptions of rock art: storying
prehistoric worlds" by archeologists
Astrid J. Nyland & Heidrun Stebergløkken, Figure 10 shows some pictures of cave art believed to show Aurora Borealis
@@Tausami thank you!
Very glad to see a read of Goldmask that both appreciates his dedication to uncovering truth and his faith in the pursuit of knowledge, while also recognizing the folly of his perfectly ordered ideology. I feel like too often we see Goldmask employing scientific inquiry and questioning the faulty order of the world, and go "ah, yes, The Rational One" without interrogating the limits of human rationality.
And I especially love how succinctly you bring up this critique! I've also been fascinated by the imagery of Goldmask's mending rune. Fia's rune acts as a root symbol that mirrors the Destined Death rune at the top, Dung-Eater's is an infection that disrupts the entire ring's design, and Goldmask's is a new reinforced ring that encircles the Elden Ring in a closed system.
I am unsure of TA's interpretation of Goldmask's ultimate epitome. The Order Healing description undermines the idea that Goldmask believes in deviation from order as evil, or even a possibility.
It seems more likely that Goldmask's epitome was that all perceived contradictions to the benevolence of order are derived from from the fickle drama of idealistic gods, and that true order transcends history, context, and alliance and thus all things possible are also part of order.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 True, I don't see Goldmask as explicitly zealotous in his belief in perfect order (I mean, zealoutry was literally what led Corrin to kill him lol), but I do see him as "foolish" in the same flawed way that any human is.
I don't think Goldmask is considering his ideology in terms of good or evil. But rather his mistake comes from thinking that he could even possibly have a "solution" to the disorder of the Elden Ring. If Goldmask's interpretation of perfect order is a system that encompasses all things infinitely, then I can only see it as ironic that it takes the symbolic form of an observable, finite circle. As though to imply that his version of "all-encompassing" is still a limited scope via human perception.
@@hunterm1113 The Ideology it's pretty simple. If Gods are as fickle as men then there's no reason for them to have more power than men. Marika and each and every Demigod were guided by their own ambitions and nothing else uncontested because the Golden Order had control of the Elden Ring and when it broke its the Demigods gained the Great Runes and with it power initiating a meaningless war in wich at the end none of them rose winner of but did indeed made the Lands Between a warzone from wich no one was exempt. The sealing of Destined Death was not made with the idea of improving life, it was to fit Marikas's vision (Or preventing the GEQ for being a threat anymore but that's beside the point) and it's that act that let the Night of The Black Knife happen and with it uncountable innocents were forced to live in dead for no other that they touch a flaw upon the order (Rogier's dialogue)
To prevent anyone else from being able to draw power from the Elden Ring, to be able to change reality with the Elden Ring it's neccesary to make it unchangeable. Rulers change, philosophy change but some rules should be absolute if we seek to prevent anything like Those Who Live In Dead or the Shattering to happen ever again.
Miyazaki has a background in sociology, and I find curious one of the biggest dillemas of the field is that we had a modernist/scientificist/structuralist tradition of thought, that gave us all the classic thinkers of the field, and that believed everything could be explained by science, rational principles and study, and as such we could find truth and achieve progress... and that got absolutely shattered by the post-modernist/structuralist tradition that saw that attempt of rationality fail catastrophically and violently, and then judged true knowledge to be impossible and all truth being just a clash of power and narratives, fundamentally irrational in nature. Where we had all-encompassing metanarratives before, now they got shattered and no one believes them anymore, just in their fragmented narratives that make themselves true by belief and practice.
Goldmasks's fascination with the Sun, more than anything to me, seems like him finding the common denominator between a lot of disparate and opposing groups in the Lands Between, a truth common and fundamental to all of them: The Golden Order has sun imagery, Those Who Live in Death have sun imagery, the Fire Giants have sun imagery, the Omen have sun imagery, and even the primeval current seems integrated - he has an Order that encompasses all of those rejected and opposed by the Golden Order and, rather than basing it on a fickle figure or anyone's will, he can base it in an observable fact that is above any being's will.
In that context, specially if we take the Golden Order as parallel to renaissance illuminism, I could see Perfect Order as the narrative equivalent of going back to the concept of truth as something even attainable, the return to the modernist dream where we can explain the world through rules and principles, the return to the possibility of one grand model that can explain the whole of life and that we can have a rational, orderly explanation for everything and that will lead to progress and prosperity. Instead of rejecting truth, modernity and scientificism, using the previous flaws of the model to inform how to create a better one, that solves past contradictions with new perspective and can stand as a truer truth, above anyone's narratives.
Twice in a month? We are truly blessed
So happy to see new TA content!
This is my interpretation of Goldmask's mending rune was two fold to return to a fundamentalism of the original configuration of the elden ring to what it was when the elden beast arrived with it and to install a safety mechanism to keep gods like Merica and Radagon from meddling with it to suit their own desires. Merica introduced the flaw of those who live in death by removing the death rune she also was the one to shatter the elden ring when she could no longer stand the weight of her station. Whereas Radagon removed the rune of rebirth and gave it to Rennala as a parting gift. Radagonn also sought to incorporate Carians into the Golden Order and in the process quite literally sired the architect of the shattering in doing so. Regardless of if Radagon and Merica were always one being with two wills or two beings merged together they both abused their role as a vessel for the elden ring to make it what they desired rather than what the Greater Will wanted it to be. It could also be argued that they tried to cheat the system a little wherein a god is required to be the vessel of the elden ring and the elden lord is required to brandish it in their merged state. A byproduct of this could be the flawed state of the twins. My interpretation is that Goldmask looking at all this and determines it is not freewill of man that is the problem nor is it the freewill of the gods themselves. The flaw he sees is their ability to meddle with the order the elden ring provides to suit their purposes. The ultimate irony though is he is willing to perform the same exact sin that the gods did by installing this mending rune to stop the meddling of the gods.
I think that the interpretation of "perfect order" meaning a fascist dictatorship state is a less than ideal take mainly informed by associations that are part of the western zeitgeist more than a plainly face-value one. Yhatzee, the guy who made the "zero-punctuation" series of game-reviews mentioned a quite unsubtle trend in games to offer as narrative options what he coins the "fascists vs nutters" situation; Wherein the game would allow you to align yourself with either lawless, structureless anarchists, or totalitarian authoritarian factions. Merely from a writing-quality assessment perspective, I don't think Fromsoft would lean into this trope, because it is quite lazy in my opinion.
In the West we tend to think about things in terms of opposites and extremes, but that outlook doesn't exactly penetrate everywhere. The idea that "perfect order" = the complete cessation of any ramifications, is probably a direct result of this somewhat intense frame of mind. For example people tend to see the yin-yang symbol as indicative as opposing opposites, and even in media the idea is often asserted that "chaos and order need to be balanced" but that's not really the whole picture of what the symbol represents. The yin-yang symbol *represents* perfect order as a total complete symbol, the chaos is factored in. I think Goldmasks' "Perfect Order" probably has less to do with totalitarian sociopolitical schemes and more to do with eliminating the hypocrisy of a human-input from the natural order. Goldmask doesn't strike us an an egoic entity, instead the lore and context around him present him as a fiercely philosophical, objective, and holistically-preoccupied observer of the laws of the universe as he experiences them as both a scholar and person of faith. Chaos as it may appear is just as likely to be part of his Perfect Order as it is to be for some reason eschewed.
A youtube comment makes for a terrible place to make a point and I don't really care to give a point by point and scrounge up sources and references, BUT! That's my take.
It's kind of like the dichotomy of Parmenidean vs Heraclitean thought. In a sense, they seem diametrically opposed, flux vs stasis. But when you really think about it and read them, they start to look pretty similar. How can anything change if there isn't something that is changing? How can something be if it isn't in some way not changing?
2 uploads so close together?? You’re spoiling us!
Goldchad Ftw!
I always read the strives within the Golden Order as the historical challenge between Gnosis and Pistis, knowledge vs. faith (which is why the key fundamentals require purely INT over FAI, I believe).
The rift between Gnosticism and the early church fathers.
Belief explains away the contradictions and paradoxes. Knowledge accepts and reconciles them. I very much enjoyed this nod through stats alone.
First! Goldmask is one of my all-time favorite fromsoft characters so I can't wait to binge this
It’s just “…” and T-posing for 30 minutes
@@LinusN1887 did I stutter?
It's a lot more than those two things, which proves to me that you're the type of player who doesn't read any items and then goes on to claim that "Fromsoft games have no story."
The OP knows what's up. You, do not.
what an excellent analysis this is. these videos provide a tremendous insight into the stories and metaphors hidden in these games. I really hope to see a video/series about the lore of Dark Souls 3 as well, that would be awesome.
Damn, now I understand the cultural reference of ST Ungulat in the Discworld novel Small Gods.
Stylites, huh.
Thank you!
your comment reminded me to read this . had it since ages ago . thank you for reminding me .
As usual, your videos are impressive. I'm amazed at just how much you think through these topics before presenting them, which reflects the incredible amount of research Miyazaki and FromSoftware have done on the backgrounds of their games. Their attention to detail, and yours, is overwhelming, in the best possible way.
It takes away free will? I thought it was a barrier that would protect the eldenring from being shattered again by a fickle god
My first instinct on seeing Goldmask's Age of Order ending was the same as TA's. But upon further thinking I came around to yours. I think all Goldmask did was make the fundamental order of the universe rigid and unchangeable. Never again will the Elden Ring be altered or changed. It's an age of pure logic and reason, where the universe can be understood and no fickle god can rewrite the laws of reality on a whim.
@@Xerxes8282 I agree, apart from one aspect: It does seem that he imprisons whatever is left of Marika for it to work. She is a statue, but also, might be still somewhat alive and sentient after being rebuild? I have no fucking idea, but its possible?
And that is what I would perceive as the one fatal flaw in his rune / ideology - the subjugation of the god.
But even that interpretation kinda relies on the premise that Marika does not wish to be alive anymore at this point in time.
Goldmask’s relationship with the heliocentric model and his frustration with trying to square inconsistencies in the Order reminds me of the history of physics. People were confused about the retrograde motion of planets, and later by the entanglement of space, gravity, and time, before these ideas were unified by Newton and later Einstein. While your idea is probably correct, I prefer to think of Goldmask’s order as less a removal of human free will and more an excising of the gods and magic as hands in the universe, allowing a unifying idea of natural law to hold together the world.
YESSSSS Another TA video! Once again another banger that checks out with what I interpreted from the game but with a coherent, history backup for it. You guys really never miss and I'm always so excited to see your vids.
Even though I really can't help but think alot of these essays are trying to find deeper meaning and connections where none exist, like someone finding a McNugget shaped like the face or Jesus and it being divine or something, I really enjoy the historical aspects of the presentation that have taught me quite a few things about history I did not know and went on to look up and research further out of sheer curiosity, which is awesome!
Love the channel regardless!
I don’t think I was ever this happy to see someone upload a video. Beautiful work. Thanks.
Wow, thank you!
Glad to see you making more ER lore videos again. It's some of my favorite videos on YT.
I'm genuinely so happy to see you make another Elden Ring video. I loved the series, and I'm sure I'll love this one too.
Any plans on a sekiro video btw? Just curious
This is a great video! I would like to add a bit of anthropology to your archeology. I find it interesting that gold mask shares the distinct anatomical phylogeny of the various humans we see in the lands between such as the gatekeeper at stormveil castle. Other Tarnish from the outside world share a phylogeny similar to our own character. Basically, human sized humans of similar build. Whereas gold mask is a towering figure that is unlike other tarnished. Now this would lead me to believe that gold mask is from the lands between, most likely the child of two commoners since the commoner class is what model his character is modeled after. So was he banished to the outside world? Or wandered the world for so long that people thought he was from the outside world. Just an observation. From one medical scientist to a tarnished archeologist
Incredible work
There has never been a yt channel for me before quite like Tarnished Archeologist. I have to thumbs up every single video bc I feel it deserves it. Every single one. I just truly feel I'd choose this channel if I had to make a choice what channel can I only watch for the rest of my days or if I can recommend only one to a friend. The same with: what game would I recommend if you can only play 1 in your life? Elden Ring. (and kind of Bloodborne with which I'm still in debate but how good that I don't have to choose between the two.)
0:46 a Carl Sagan quote pops up for just a few frames during the scene transition
First 10 seconds and I'm already getting the channel vibes. I love this so much.
Good video, but I read Goldmask's story differently than you. I didn't see him as "fascist", particularly when reading his view of the Golden Order Fundamentalists' zealotry against Those Who Live in Death: "The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with." He doesn't seem to denigrate other forms of existence supposedly antithetical to the Golden order, the way others in the Order do. Rather, I see Goldmask as a philosophical transition from an understanding of the universe as the result of Divine Order to an enlightened Natural Order. I don't know that he thinks humans generally, other cultures, or other forms of existence are evil or impure. I think his philosophy really is just: We shouldn't alter the rules of the universe as they stand now. The issue with that is that the world is still clearly broken, but it is quite similar to Ranni's perspective, in my opinion.
Agreed 100%. Him and Ranni actually have really similar values, they just come to similar but different solutions. The main difference is that Ranni values personal freedom the most, and so considers more uncertainty and mystery an acceptable tradeoff, whereas Goldmask values continued study and learning of the Elden Ring and order as a whole the most, and considers possible future actions that use the order as justification wrong and something that should be pushed back against but still a possiblity.
Both want to prevent anyone from meddling with the order again in the future, they just have a slightly different ranking in priorities and use different methods with different tradeoffs.
Interesting, but I dusagree with the final takeaway, as it doesn’t really line up in my opinion. His grand revelation in this interpretation is essentially "The Order is right, EVERYONE ELSE is wrong!" Which is not really heretical, and wouldn't disagree with Cohen's zeal.
Corhyn doesn't kill Goldmask, it`s an understandable conclusion, but not what happens, Goldmask, Fia and Dungeater all die upon creating their mending runes. D beholder of death attacks Fia while he sees her "resting" next to Godwyn. Goldmask's dies in the same place with or without ever meeting Corhyn. reading the wiki`s, Corhyn can die in several locations depending on if you tell him about Goldmask or give him the tonic of Forgetfulness.
Isn't it sort of a contradiction to say that the creators of the mending runes died making them, and then explain that D actually killed Fia? Or did he only think that he killed her, and she was already dead? And as for Dungeater, I figured all the seedbed curses he took in are what probably killed him.
Under this theory, he thinks he killed her but she was already dead. Or perhaps in either case making the mending rune takes 99.9% of someone's life where they would die shortly after regardless of is someone kills them or not. They're left alive just long enough for someone to do the honors, but would die on the spot regardless. Could be something like that. @@Galamoth06
@@Galamoth06 Destined Death is sealed. Unless you are slain by Maliketh's Black Blade or have the entire two halves of the Rune of Death carved into your flesh literally no one can actually die. How are people still not understanding this?
You're totally right, we will exonerate him
@@Galamoth06 sorry for the confusion, I'm not very good at word play. D finds Fia and thinking she`s asleep attacks her not knowing she was already dead.
So happy to see you back to Elden Ring!
My favorite EldenBro! I really hope he gets more content. It’s a shame his quest only has dialogue and an INT check when it’s arguably the best ending.
Another absolute banger! I especially loved the link between the primeval current and aurora borealis.
Great video! Love seeing you connect historical parallels to Fromsofts story telling. However, I strongly disagree with the reading that Goldmask is opposed to free will. I don't think there's much direct evidence to draw this conclusion. Not only can we philosophically square notions of determinism and freedom, but neither is moral responsibility threatened by the truth or falsity of determinism. I've always read Goldmask's mending rune as a kind of sealing rune that prevents future tampering with the Elden Ring. It seems to me that Goldmask regards the removal of the Rune of Death as one of the cardinal sins of the Order. We can infer this from various item descriptions that juxtapose Goldmask with other zealots like D, who view Those Who Live In Death as aberations to the Order that need to be expunged. Goldmask on the other hand views this as misguided, and tries to reconcile how TWLID can even exist if the Golden Order is in fact perfect. As such, it seems to me that his gripe is with the Gods behaving like men with respect to being flawed and fickle. If Gods are no better than humans in this way then sealing away the ring makes a lot of sense. Goldmask can therefore be read as wanting to establish an order that cannot be tampered with by those who would benefit from its alteration. Given the way in which the Elden Ring acts as a metaphor for something like "The Laws Governing Life in the Lands Between", this actually reads as very freeing. It amounts to an acceptance of the vulnerability and corporeal limitation of humanity, an aescetic acceptance that some powers are beyond the scope of that which mortals should desire to control for their benefit. Rather than a reading of a fascist ending that strips humanity of its freedom, it seems to me completely the opposite. It's deeply liberating that Order now simply exists as a fact of the world and is sealed away from the meddling influence of those who would call themselves Gods (a status they can claim only because of their control and manipulation of order). Humanity, rather than being masters of nature/life should instead find a more humble place within creation.
WHY ARE YOU SO AMAZING? I honestly aspire to be someone like you, although we probably are the same age. Knowing history and archaeology, being able to read in-depth into the visual design and world in art is truly amazing. I was at some point researching chalice dungeons and their similarities with the culture of Yharnam, and was FASCINATED by how real it felt: a forgotten culture still seen on the face of cities, history told through visuals. I WAS able to read into it, yeah, but never with such accuracy and depth as you do, or like that other guy who made "True History of bloodborne" with historical, literature and scientific references.
And also, what an amazing studio FromSoft is, being able to squeeze so much layers of information, references and inspiration into their games. I love this world
Another excellent video! I have to wonder, does Goldmask restore the Sun to it's rightful place in the Lands Between?
I don't think so. Sunflowers face the Erdtree, not the Sun. Since the Erdtree seems to have usurped the Sun in this geocentric model, I feel it's merely just a symbol to him of eternal perfection (my thoughts on this are complicated but to me the Sun is just as subject to change as anything else) so Goldmask will have to deal with a reckoning eventually.
To him the Golden Order was perfect, it was merely the fickleness of the Gods he took issue with. He seems fine with the Erdtree as it is.
Not quite.
The first thing that truly disturbs Corhyn when following Goldmask was catching onto the suggestion that they may have to burn the Erdtree; like us, Goldmask knows it must burn for us to make any progress to change the world.
Aye, the Erdtree does return in some form, but will those sunflowers look to it now....
Or back up to the Sun?
2 videos in less than a week?! You spoil us, TA. (Keep up the exquisite content!)
Its been a while, really looking forward to a new Tarnished Archaeologist Elden Ring video, always a 10/10 in production and entertainment !!
As always a great video that makes me go “huh”. Also whatever you use for captions is really good, better than a lot of UA-cam videos. This random person appreciates that.
YESSSSSS
REJOICE! HE HAS RETURNED AND THE VIDEOS FLOW IN ABUNDANCE ONCE AGAIN
So great to see all your videos. The best part is learning about our own world and history, not just this constructed paracosm based on it.
I can't explain the excitement I feel every time a new video comes out. Makes my day, every time.
16:54 a serious question, if what Goldmask saw lead him to heresy and doubting more the Golden order then he might see something that make him think that someone or something made a grave mistake and tried to cover it right?
Yessss!! Welcome back to Elden Ring, Tarnished ❤
thanks man, these videos are so cool to watch. they always make me go search new stuff on the internet and learn so much
"Ahhh yes, the based goldmask" - morgott, probably
I thought this was an old video at first. Two videos this close together is a real treat!
Haven't watched the video yet but the opening music slaps
brilliant work. thank you for putting this together.
I think it's worth mentioning that the description of the Eclipsed Sun of Sol says it "prevented an onlooker from averting his gaze", which also sounds like it took away their free will. (The Eclipse Shotel also has this blazing corona).
Hitting like before I even watch this! I’ve been missing the ER content cos I haven’t played BB yet so I haven’t watched your latest videos to avoid spoilers. Never stop making ER content, I cannot get enough! 😅
Very glad to watch your lovely work.
Goldmask's revelation reminds me of the pharoah Atenkamun, who replaced all the gods with worship of the sun disk exclusively
are you a history professor AND trivia master? some of these connections are so seemingly esoteric but seem so complete, love the channel man
The irony of Goldmask being an advent of Chaos by being a Tarnished and using that trait all to get rid of the very force that allowed him to create the Mending Rune of Perfect Order in the first place. Thanks for the video!
Goddamn, my job is hell during Thanksgiving week.
Now, finally, I have unwound and relaxed enough where I can watch what I expect to be one of my favorite lore videos yet.
Was just thinking about this channel, I really appreciate these types of deep dives.
Tarnished Archaeologist is so nice to listen to, so easy to understand. I would like to hear TA cover something historical that can be hard for non-experts to understand, like the American Civil War, including context and precedents. People without particular interest in history can be drawn into it through FromSoft games. It happened to me!!!
I'll suggest a band for you: Sabaton. Almost all their music is based on real history. Start with my favorite Christmas story: "No Bullets Fly." They also have a channel where a historian named Indy explains the history behind their music (no, he doesn't melt any German Nationalists with ancient Hebrew artifacts).
amazing video! can't wait for the next one....I love learning something about real life history and then using this knowledge to understand the game better. awesome
BABE WAKE UP THE BEST LORE CHANNEL EVER JUST DROPPED A VID
Love the whole video but i disagree with the last conclusion, I think goldmask refers to the adoration of the sun as the way to fix the golden order. Adoration of the sun is the perfect faith, is adoration of life with the contrivances of religion.
Two videos in the same week! Awesome!
I always get excited to see your vids in my feed. And better yet, they somehow always satisfy the lore/history itch. Great work. 👍
Two videos in one week? You're spoiling us!
A lot of the confusion surrounding your final thoughts could be cleared up if you talked about Goldmask's relation to the Greater Will, and/or the Elden Ring's relation to the Greater Will (or at least how I presume you view their relation.) I was surprised to not hear any commentary on the GW's original intent and use of the Elden Ring, and how the Perfect Order rune fits into place, an expansion of what you already touched on. I would have loved to hear that from you, even as a repeat from your previous videos. Regardless of that, I was very happy to learn about Ibn Arabi, excited to read more about him. Thank you for what you do
Now that I'm re-reading this, this sounds like a lot I'm just lumping onto you. I'm sorry if it came off as rude
Not at all :) But we are not here simply to explain, we are here to bring some ideas, and let you all run with them.