The OLED Monitor You’ve Been Waiting For: LG 27GR95QE
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- The LG 27GR95QE-B is the first 27" 1440p gaming monitor that has a 240 Hz OLED panel.
LG 27GR95QE-B (affiliate link):
🛒 geni.us/xTuqeA
IPS Alternatives (affiliate links):
🛒 Alienware AW2723DF: geni.us/dzmnEQ
🛒 Gigabyte M27Q X: geni.us/MbhG0T
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
ICC profile download:
bit.ly/27GR95QE-ICC
Reddit thread for fixing the 240 Hz bug:
bit.ly/240hz-fix
Support me on Patreon:
/ techlessyt
Discord:
/ discord
Instagram:
/ iamtechless
Index:
00:00 - OLED!
00:46 - Matte = Dull?
01:49 - Brightness
02:27 - More Brightness / Recommended Settings
03:36 - Actual HDR
04:44 - Response Times, Ghosting & Motion Blur
07:46 - 240 Hz Issue & How to fix it
09:08 - Display Lag
09:37 - Adaptive Sync
10:22 - Color Accuracy
11:21 - Fringing is a problem
13:31 - Ergonomics & Design
14:38 - Conclusion - Наука та технологія
Update: LG fixed the 120 Hz bug via firmware update. HDR brightness didn't change, but here are the updated numbers for SDR with different contrast settings and window sizes: twitter.com/iamtechless/status/1650792314661482497
Can you check the overshoot with the new firmware update?
@@fatalbabo2150 Would love to see a retest. The overshoot issues are supposedly fixed via the latest firmware, according to BadSeed Tech. 🙏
@techless @Martin Gomez I updated the monitor with the latest driver and have the latest nvidia driver but am still getitng that notification that its running at 3840x2160 at 120hz using full screen. Like you said you can use window full screen to by pass this but were you ever able to resolve this with the new update?
@@Ryan-mg9fg
Same thing happened to me. Ended up using CRU and deleting the T.V resolutions anyways and now it's fixed
It does not work for HDMi on DP it works. I would like to be fixed for HDMI 2.1 HDR 12bit colors look better then DP 1.4 HDR 12bit
Any new person stumbled upon this channel
Mark my words ... This guy is the best in the business when it comes to reviewing monitors.even better than those million subscribed channels who just hype up a scene to let you buy a certain product in order to get good with company for profits.been following from scratch and still the content is true as god's own words 🤠🤠
I have finally unsubbed from Linus in the past month, after not clicking on a single video of his for two straight months.
Full blown cringe and children-targeted videos/thumbnails finally took its toll on me.
I hope this channel maintains its professional content and attitude.
@@O.Shawabkeh bro linus videos where always about wow this is cool etc not for yo buy this!
looks like paid promotion huh :D
You're the guy I always follow when it's about choosing monitor. You are really underrated. Hope you keep up the quality content and take love from Bangladesh!
Great work! Great video! Keep it up!
Awesome content. Keep it up! Also, regarding the refresh rate issue, nVidia has been known for having issues with overclocked resolutions and refresh rates, so maybe this particular monitor uses an OC-ed factory profile in order to achieve 240hz.
overclocked resolutions lmao
@@willuigi64 Yeah, custom res is considered "overclocked", if you didn't know. Beside setting a custom hor./ver. Resolution, you can manually set pixel timings, set custom gsync/freesync range, custom refresh rate and color depth. Also choose between progressive and interlaced type of refresh. Any custom setting beyond the factory is considered an overclock, even if its an undervolt.
Thank you very much, that was excellent review
I liked that you addressed the 4k 120 hz issue…
Thank You!!
Great review as usual, thank you! Only one gripe so far with this monitor - non inclusion of burn-in in the warranty! I can live with text fringing as I don't intend to use this for productivity or content creation. But the warranty is a bit of a bummer for me. Have to wait what Asus and Acer can do with their monitors based on the same panel.
ORGANIC-LED burn-in is inevitable. just a matter of time and use case. doesnt make sence for manufacturers to cover it. DELL warranty is a joke, as you will just get a refurbished, USED panel
best review I've seen for this monitor
1800-2000$ for one piece in Eastern Europe lmao
this should be on the top
£980 from LG in the uk
I have a smartphone with an AMOLED screen, I'm in love with it, so much so that when I'm going to consume a video I prefer to watch it. I really wanted an oled monitor, but the price is priceless.
Compared my IPS phone to an AMOLED one and I wanted to cry. How dafuq did I enjoy colors like this...
Odd how good oled smartphone screens are. They don’t seem to suffer from the same problems tv’s and monitors have. Text is clear, burn in minimal to non-existent (I don’t baby my smartphone), and it gets mega bright. The perfect display?
@@Keivz I mean, I haven't had my s22 long enough to see burn-in, but my note 9 and s10 both suffered from after a few years.
@@mamaharumi a year and a half so far on mine and I use it constantly. But not hearing rampant reports or complaints of burn in but yeah I don’t know the actual data.
@@mamaharumi My current cell phone is 3 years old, has no burn-in. All smartphones I had were amoled, none of them suffered from this problem, but those of my parents with about 2 and a half years old are starting to show a little, I believe it is due to the brightness being almost always at the maximum.
I just got mine today, and coming from the AW34 (Not a fan of ultrawide) it's a great competitor. I was worried about worse colors on the LG with it being matte/non QD-oled but colors are plenty vibrant. Fringing's basically a non issue for me. Big fan, just wish the price was lower.
Cool. I have the AW34 QD-OLED asweel, but really considering selling it, to go with the 27inch.. Im also really not a ultrawide fan . Hows your experience so far? :)
Same here. Returned the Alienware for this one. Loving it so far
I was able to find this for $678 as an open box with 8 hours of use. Great steal for me.
Would love a videos about budget 1080p gaming monitor.........love the content
I have an AMD Radeon RX 6900 XT and didn't run into the issue of having to delete the TV resolutions. I also read a lot of other reviews of people saying their desktop automatically went to 4k resolution but I didn't have that issue. The only thing I have noticed is that when I first launch a game it defaults to 4k resolution and I have to just change it in game to 2k. After changing it once it's a non issue. The desktop resolution has always been 2k for me though. Thanks for your review.
7900 xtx here, and same thing for me. Some games default to 4k, but otherwise monitor behaves at 2k.
Love the video, thanks for all the fringing pointers.
I would be interested to get your input lag impressions of DP 1.4 vs. HDMI 2.1 using CRU to tweak out the performance as HDMI 2.1's higher bandwidth doesn't come with any of DP 1.4's display stream compression.
I own the monitor, ist seems u can disabled DSC in the the settings
I feel the difference
8:45 I had that same thing happen on my EX2510S when booting OW2. It has been fixed now at least for me!
Best Monitor ever owned I had to buy a Vesa stand on Amazon though to get it go lower on my desk. Took me two weeks to calibrate basically just turned the gamma Nvidia down to . 81
Bought this today, Im so happy with it. totally worth it
it's literally the perfect monitor except the low brightness
@@mikeramos91asus oled
@@mikeramos91 agreed i bought it today and thats the only thing that lets it down maybe there might be a firmware update soon to fix this ??
Burn in?
@@jarmobostrom3241I'd recommend hiding the Windows Taskbar, do not display dark colors on it. I got a burn in from it but got a replacement panel.
Love the videos bro! Keep it up ♥️ would love to see you review the Asus OLED 27" monitor when it comes out 😁 (I'm assuming it's using the same panel as this monitor though)
Its only 26,5 inch. 2540 x 1440. But doesn't bother me.
No HDMI 2.1 though, only 2.0. Has a heatsink though.
I didn't expect the manufacturers to even go for non-4K models so there's that, but I really don't expect that they'll really care enough about the subpixel drawbacks in this segment. Perhaps if OLED for computer screens becomes a volume item in a few years, but the main obstable there is the high manufacturing cost.
Competitive 1440p is we're it's at that's why nobody does 4k for competitive
Awesome review. From where i can download the same wallpaper
I have a RX 6950 XT and I also had the 4K problem.
But for me as was as easy to asolve as tab out of the game and tab back in.
I did this once for every game this occured (it was not every game) and since then I did not have that problem again.
I also can pick 4k resolution in the game and still have the monitor run at 240hz.
If you want more info hit me up I can make sreenshots and pictures
Fire content bro and that’s why i ask this to you. My 2k monitor broke and i want to change it with a 2k oled or a 4k 27” 160hz ish, what u suggest?. The thing is that they are going to be my second monitor on the setup as i use it for single player and consuming content, so i don’t know if the better option is oled or the 4k quality, what do u think?
If you could get the Gigabyte M32Q ai would really appreciate a review on that! A Lot of others reviewers recomend it and the market for an 32 inch monitor here in Europe is really big.
Is there a chance you could do a video on Gigabyte M32Q? I just wanna know the ICC profile and the recommended settings for color accuracy and overdrive
I disabled clear type & looks excellent. Fringing is totally absent with clear type off, even when highlighting text
Hey I'm big fan of your work. Recently I want to buy a 1080p gaming monitor and confused between two, can you make a video on gigabyte g24f 2 and msi optix g2412. I'm specially concerned about their brightness and contrast performance.
It would have been great if you explored the hardware calibration feature this monitor has and demonstrated what results it is possible to achieve with it.
Hey Techless! Love your videos, really high quality content, very thorough and simple and helpful! I would really appreciate it if you could get your hands on the Philips 24M1N3200Z and test it! Thanks and keep it up ^^
great review with valorant 240hz -- Do you use hdmi or display port? I have 2.1 but not sure which is better.
Price is still too high, but man, I've been waiting too long for 27in OLED.
If you don't want to use the remote, LG also has software that allows you to change several settings as well.
Please make a review for the Rog pg27aqdm, it uses the same panel as its LG counterpart but claims to be much brighter.
1 st review of this OLED monitor that tackle the subpixel layout issue that affect editing works. Thank you sir
Where'd you find your wallpaper and those neon light videos?
This monitor is really good and is plenty bright.
Agreed, Just got mine and it gets more than bright enough for me. I have my Mini LED monitor sitting right next to the LG and much prefer the LG. The colors really pop and contrast is fantastic.
@@armen1136 yea and I’m coming from the Samsung Neo G7 which is a VA panel with good HDR, LG still crushes it especially with motion clarity.
Thank you very much bro, your channel are filled of usefull information at all, i've learned alot of things from you,
So am so confused right in my region there's 3 monitors that i want your advice to pick one of them they are:
(viewsonic xg2405 for 205$)
and the (msi g2422 for 215$)
And the (Xl2411k for 220$)
my uses are plating games like (valorant - cs:go - dota2) and i don't play story games at all but i do love fully colors monitor so please i really need your help to pick one of this 😢
Link to that Wallpaper? :) love it!
I would love to see a comparison with the KTC M27T20. VA with FALD could be more valueable than OLED in my opinion.
I think OLED is overhyped and the only reason why they get selled is that the investments have to payout before we can get microled on the table.
I'm getting this monitor this Saturday. I will only be using it for gaming, however I do want an accurate color calibration. How exactly do I calibrate the color on this monitor?
Great review. I’ve had this for less than a week and here are some of my thoughts:
1. The matte screen doesn’t bother me one bit. I have a CX to compare it to.
2. I have an nvidia card and I haven’t encountered the 120 hz bug, but I don’t play Valorant. I did have an issue where vrr refused to engage in FH 5 when I set the game to 4K (downsampling looks great on this thing) but setting the actual monitor resolution to 4K fixed that.
3. Haven’t noticed any flickering myself with vrr. The nvidia control panel says the monitor is not g sync compatiable when using hdmi oddly and I feel like g sync works better with DP but that may be placebo.
4. You can lose the remote. There is software you can download for windows to control the monitor with and it works nice and provides you with more options than the remote does (mostly).
5. I wonder what the input lag is like with DAS off (it goes off in vivid mode-vivid is a tad too cool but gets brighter than the other modes).
6. Dts X is a really nice perk. I think it sounds amazing and deserves a mention.
Couple other things:
I have finally seen some vrr flicker. It was on one scene with a wildly fluctuating framerate. Never seen that kind of flicker on my cx.
Agreed this thing doesn’t get too bright in hdr but I’d call it ‘fine’. Vivid gets bright enough but it’s is far too cool. If you adjust the coolness out it looks as bright as being out of vivid mode so it’s rather pointless.
What's the software you used to adjust the monitor?
What is the Windows software?
How is the Fan Noise
@@masterbenjamin3348 it's silent. Monitors unboxed did a review and also noted that it is silent.
What audio interface are you using?
Any idea when will it be available in Europe?
Is this a good monitor for PS5? I mainly play FPS games. Love your content by the way!
just got my 27GR95QE-B.AEU today, connected it via DP 1.4 to my RTX 3090 in Windows 10, native 2560x1440@240hz, gsync, latest Nvidia Game Ready drivers, SDR. The ABL is extremely annoying. The screen goes dim and bright all the time when you open or switch between windows of different brightness levels, by far not covering full screen, in the 2 games I tested so far it is extremely dim. No matter what setting I try this is unacceptable. I will send it back if there is no solution. I am thankful for any advice in this matter.
I find that the hdr mode, when watching video, looks terrible. it could be that my last monitor's imperfections hid how bad windows hdr is, but i just use it in sdr and have been happy with it
Would this still be good for console gaming at 60 and 120Hz in your opinion? The overshoot didn't look to good.
if it was finally available again in germany i would love to buy it for ps5 and series x…. how are the fan noises? consider getting the Asus but it only has hdmi 2.0.
Could the flickering with adaptive sync be the near-black flickering that happens on LG OLED TVs?
8:52 I did not run into this issue at all. I use AMD 6800 XT so i guess thats why.
Idk about other gamers but my bed room is always dark because I live in the shadow realm so having a matt coating on the monitor is really annoying and ruins it, I want just a nice glass panel that's crystal clear but I also want all the bells and whistles a gaming monitor has. If LG had an option to not have the matt coating I'd buy this monitor in a heart beat.
How does one use the ICC profile?
is it ok to use a rgb mouse and keyboard and mousepad next to this?
How long before we see 4k 32 144 OLEDs ? This config perfectly fits my use case.
I have this monitor and I am wondering if I should have the black levels on high or low I play a lot of gaming
hi bro...can we feel we are playing in 4k monitor with this 27grt95qe? can you see any pixelation on the game?
I am thinking of buying a Samsung 65s95c TV. I have been using a Panasonic plasma TV for 10 years. Do you think I can get good results on an Oled TV to use at 144-120hz? The income level in my country is low and I need to make a precise shot. thanks
Does this monitor flickers when using HDR and adaptive sync at the same time?, since it’s only gsync compatible and not gsync ultimate certified
can you review monitor from lenovo y25-30 ?
Nah. Gotta be 4K 27". I sometimes watch 1080p content on my monitor, and upscaling 1080p works way better at 4K than 1440p.
I'm probably just gonna go mini-LED until microLED hits 4K 27".
Techless can you help me or maybe somebody in the comments. I have a monitor for 3 years now but the brightness has gone down a significant amount. I use to have it at 30 percent and was fine now i need to push it to 50 just to have a stable brightness. Is there any fix for this or what could be causing this issue ? Thanks
Should I take this monitor or Ktc m20pro 4k 144hz
Review lg 27gp850 pls
Hey, why at my oled lg is "smart energy saving" grey and i cant turn it off or on ?
if they just removed the anti reflection coating i'd be much happier, but it's still very good, just doesn't look as vibrant as my c1 48 oled.
make it 42" ultrawide and it would be indeed perfect!
You can also get around the weird 4k 120hz issue by using display port rather than HDMI.
Ya, it's kind of like cars. You never buy the first model year.. let them tweak out the issues then buy the 2nd generation. OLED in a TV is one thing OLED in a monitor is another. But excited to see what comes out in the next couple of years. Pricing is tough as well for another 700 or so dollars I can have a tried and tested 65 inch OLED TV (LG C2)??? To each his own.
wallpaper?
Edit: also no BFI on a OLED "GAMING" monitor is extremely disappointing
could you tell me why the white color on the OLED monitor is not white, a little blue
It looks so cool but Imagine spending 1k euroes on a monitor only for it to get burnt in and oled issues, :/
We've been waiting for 4k 120hz 32-34 inch OLED with normal aspect ratio (not ultrawide). Anything else and you're still better off using LG C2 42inch.
what's the name of that wallpaper?
Have fun with burn ins
Hello, is there a new firmware update for this monitor yet?
I'm not sure I want to deal with burn-in on a PC monitor. 4k monitors are finally getting better, but if it's 1440p, I'll stick with my trusty LG IPS 27 inch QHD monitor.
PC users need Neo Qled instead of Oled. Neo Qled is very close to Oled(i'd say around 90% close) but there's no risk of burn-in. i'd choose slightly worse and no burn-in without a second thought.
@@SapiaNt0matais there any neo Qled gaming monitor in the market rn ?
@@SapiaNt0mataneo qled gaming monitor?
So many of my settings are locked why is that?
PG27AQDM review very needed!
Heute für 250 Euro als Rückläufer geschnappt. Danke für das Video, bist Referenz für mich bei Monitoren mit rtings zusammen!
Moin moin, das könnte easy auch ein 360hz monitor sein oder? weiss da jmd bescheid was dafür sonst notwendig wäre?
32inch pls.
5:00 - do you need game running at 240Hz or only monitor set to 240Hz to get this 240Hz resuls?
The Game has to be 240 Fps and the Monitor set to 240 herz
peak brightness off or low or high ? Anyone can help me
Can you share your wallpaper please?
bro please what is that wallpaper in the background
Streamst du auch?
Sadly OLED is not there just yet, hopefully in a couple of generations time all the annoyances and downsides will be gone. Too many concessions to be made currently, just to enjoy the HDR. Price is still too high for what it is, 1K for a 27in 1440p monitor is too high. Brightness is too low, the fringing is a deal-breaker for me. Burn-in is still real, despite all the precautions and mitigations. You still have to baby it to avoid image retention or burn-in, not worth the hassle IMO. The firmware quirks are annoying. A remote, on a desktop monitor, really?!?
What's wrong with a remote for a monitor? It's a very convenient feature, I wish my monitor had one.
Also, I'd take 1080p OLED at any size over 4k IPS any day.
@@juanblanco7898 The remote is totally useless. Why do I need more stuff on my desk, something I can lose, something that can break or fail, to worry about batteries. It's a solution to a problem that does not exist. They did put a button on the monitor, why not a joystick like every other monitor from the last 4-5 years.
I used to think the same about resolutions, thought that 1080p was all I would ever need. Totally wrong. I've been using a 32" 4K monitor for the last 2 years, never going back to anything less.
@@juanblanco7898 that’s the thing. For this monitor, the remote isn’t a feature, it’s a necessity. If it had a joystick in the back of the monitor so I can adjust everything I could with the monitor then cool, throw in a remote for those who want it.
Such a terrible approach to accessing important features to a monitor that help prevent burn in…well the more I think about it, they probably did it so if you lose the remote, you can’t access those features, thus burning in more so you can get a replacement. And yeah it has auto image cleaning but it doesn’t kick in after 4 hours of use and you have to have whatever you’re using, off so no signal is detected so it can start. With the remote you can start it whenever you feel like the monitor needs it.
@@Totto70770 You're overreacting I think, the remote is a good idea. For a monitor that requires some software setups, having a remote is an advantage.
Do you enjoy playing with the buttons of settings of you monitor to set the brightness, the security settings, the HDR, the printing mode, etc ?
It's something you likely won't use after you're monitor is all set, but you're still kind of happy of having it when you're setting the monitor.
8:01 why it say the resolution is 4k
As impressed as I am with OLED and QD-OLED technologies I refuse to buy an OLED until they solve the burn in issue. I don't want to constantly be worried about and be looking for signs of burn in when I am using my monitor or TV. I recently got a Neo-QLED TV instead of an OLED one just because of that and I am much happier with this decision especially when there is so little difference these days in the picture quality.
I've had it for a month , curious to know how long it takes for burn in to happen . I hear people saying that for gaming and movies burn in isn't really an issue anymore .
The 'burn-in issue' will never be resolved. All the LEDs have a finite amount of life where they will eventually get dimmer or burn out. The closest thing to a solution would be balancing it out so every individual led degrades at around the same time. Then you at least wouldn't have leds burning out before they should.
Lol bro i don't think burn in will ever get fixed so go ahead and get it. Think of it this way, ur phone has a OLED display and ur not concerned about burn in with that, so don't worry about burn in with this monitor.
I'm laughing, a burnt in oled looks way better than a ips panel annyways😂😂 I have a old oled with alot of burnt in, used it 30k hours, when I game I don't even notice it at all, it's only there for home screen
11:06 i need these settings
I don’t like the matte coatings on monitors. Maybe it’s just my experience but I think it takes away from the quality of the image
“Nvidia are working on an update to fix this issue”. Do you have a source for that or anything? I’d like to know if this is true, since you’re the first I’ve heard say this.
The source is LG themselves as he clearly said that he spoke to someone at LG.
Well implemented Backlight strobing such as on the Omen X25, Dell S2716DG, Asus PG278Q, PG278QR, PG278V / PG278VQ at just 120 fps/Hz absolutely, totally blows away the motion clarity of even extremely fast OLED monitors at 240 fps/Hz. OLEDs unfortunately still use terrible sample-and-hold tech to refresh the image which adds tons of blur. It's also the reason why, in a non-strobing test, a Samsung Odyssey G7 (VA) @ 240 fps / Hz absolutely blows away the motion clarity of a super fast TN panel @ 120, 144, or even 165 Hz even though the TN has just as fast, if not faster, pixel response times. The ultra-fast TN panels are an absolute smear-fest compared to the Samsung VA because of the sample-and-hold technology being the weakest link due to the lower refresh rate regardless of the pixel response times.
Sample and hold tech is why OLED, with a mere fraction of the pixel response times as even the fastest LCD panel's pixels, still doesn't have anything even close to the motion clarity of a CRT or of even a 120 Hz strobed monitor. Now if you compare sample-and-hold tech to sample-and-hold tech, of course an OLED @ 240 Hz will easily have better motion clarity than even the fastest LCD @ 240 Hz and probably even 360 and possibly 480 Hz. In fact, I believe OLED's superiority in motion clarity (at equal refresh rates) over LCD will increase as refresh rate increases because the higher refresh rates will mean that the sample-and-hold tech being the weakest link will contribute less and less to the motion clarity and therefore will get in the way less of the OLED's incredibly low pixel response times to really shine and "do their thing". The pixel response times of fast OLED gaming monitors is being severely held back and not being utilized to anywhere near it's fullest due to the combination of sample-and-hold tech and 240 Hz.
We either need OLEDs with black frame insertion (and without adding much input lag) @ at least 120 Hz, if not 240 Hz, and well implemented (some strobing monitors don't have it implemented well and therefore don't improve much on the motion clarity compared to non-strobing mode, the Samsung non-Neo Odyssey G7 is a good example), OR, non-BFI OLED @ 480 Hz. I bet a very fast pixel respone time OLED monitor without BFI but @ 480 Hz can get fairly close to strobing / BFI / CRT.
I had a Dell S2716DG (144 Hz, fast TN), Asus PG278V / VQ (165 Hz, even faster TN, it's basically a curved & brighter PG278QR), and a Samsung Odyssey G7 (240 Hz, VA, about the fastest VA around) all at the same time, and the motion clarity of the Samsung absolutely destroyed the other 2 despite the ultra-fast TNs having either equal or faster pixel response times.
Cual es tu recomendación entonces ? Samsung g7 ?
@@tripieXXX If you only use one screen? LG 45GR95QE-B
@@Spinelli__ I have Alienware 360 hz but I want one monitor 2k 240hz minimum but I do not know which one buy, pg27aqn, this LG, Alienware 2723df…
@@tripieXXX None of them. If you want a 16:9 27 inch, I would get the Asus PG27AQDM. It is the same panel and technology as this LG 27GR95QE-B but the Asus allows more brightness. Do not confuse the PG27AQDM with the PG27AQN. They are two completely different models. Get the PG27AQDM. If you cannot get that, then get this LG.
@@Spinelli__ okok
Seems like price isnt worth…
It has a specific use case, not just so you buy it and forget about it while it collets dust on your desk.
matte. keeping my money
The overshoot is disappointing for me as I was looking for a monitor for a variety of games, not just high fps competitive games. I hope the ASUS won't suffer from this issue.
I'm in the same boat. The overshoot issues were allegedly fixed via the most recent firmware update.
iMacs have glossy finish and nobody complains.
Can anybody who owns this give me a better idea how it performs at 60hz as I'll be using pc, new consoles, old console's etc with it?
all good but neither hdmi 2.0 nor displayport 1.4 can handle 1440p@240fps with hdr, the usable bandidth is a bit below ten required data tranfer
This monitor has HDMI 2.1 though?
@@Rasec1120 right, I confused it with pg27aqdm
Hope the get cheaper over time