Discussing A Game of Thrones (the book!) | Legendarium Podcast 432
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Craig and Kenn are joined by Eradandis (of Discord fame) to discuss A Game of Thrones, the first book in #georgerrmartin 's A Song of Ice and Fire series. Are they going to give it the lengthy treatment it deserves? Absolutely not. At least not today. But they are going to talk about its merits--and demerits--as they see them, for the next hour.
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Oh god what a bad take. "If Jaime and Cersei were only good friends how would that materially change the story". It's like he thinks the politics and wars are the sum total of the story. I hope the IRS come down on him like a ton of KL bricks.
19:20 good screenshot. Poor Craig.
Right. And Jaime isn’t just a flawed Lancelot. Lancelot was already a flawed white knight. Jaime is a corrupted Lancelot. By making it incest, it brings to a modern audience the horror a medieval audience would have felt at Lancelot
both Drogo and Neds death may have had aspects of randomness or fate involved in their demise but they also I think were culminations of the actions and flaws of those characters and of those around them and the social structure around them, so while there is definitely ill luck or whatever involved they also both feel earned and structurally determined.
(but like Craig said, no grand conspiracy, just a result of the social relations and personalities ajd the way they are interacting, so while it's structurally determined, no puppet master, just an all sided coming together of the events that lead to their death)
I mean the incest is super important symbolically and thematically.
Cersei models what they’re doing off the Targaryens. They did it for politics but her version is self serving and destructive. It highlights how neglectful and abusive Tywin is, how in love with their own myth Jaime (book 1) and Cersei are, highlights how rough cerseis life was and how used by the men in it she is.
I mean you can just “not like it” all you want, but it is deeply implicated into the themes of the story. It fits.
I don't agree that the only reason that the incest i's there is for shock there is a lot to be said for how it shapes the morality of the Lannisters and like the hypocrisy of people who were okay with the Targaryen incest but would have a problem with it from the lann Lannisters or like cersei being a fronted by the fact that people would be offended by her incest but not by The way Robert treats her. there's a lot of work that their relationship does in terms of world building and characterization and plot It's not just for shock value in my opinion.
Well said
@@TheLegendarium full disclosure while I don't condone it irl I am not that shocked by it in fiction and never was, so I am biased on this topic. I find other things in the series far more shocking and some of those things (particularly as changed in the show) I did find "unnecessary" and "only for shock" but I'm a lot more forgiving of yhe books in general and of this topic in particular than many people
You might think incest as titillation but you will see it's purpose in later books. Its important part of the story and links to tywin lannister. For Tywin the most important thing is his family reputation, even in his first scene while skinning a deer he says to jaime "If tyrion is held prisoner for long, the less their family commands respect.", "It's the family name that lives on he says"
And this incestious relationship is used as blackmail by cersie in later books to stop tywin from marrying her to loras. The only scene where we see tywin afraid is when he realise that if people hear this truth then their house will return to nothing.
Drawing the line at incest with all that's in the book is weird. It also does influence the plot.
I also think by later books it's pretty clear that viewing the Starks as "the good guys" and the Lannisters as "the bad guys" doesn't really work. With the knowledge of the later books, I root for Cersei and Jamie over Ned. That said, they ruin this in the show by making Jamie into a rapist (does not happen in the books).
Disregard, the like. Please don’t have this dude on again, because he obviously didn’t read the books.
He made direct references to things that happened in the book...
One thinks the Lannisters led Robert's Rebellion, the other that Jaime "betrayed the Starks".
Please continue with the series. Or do a part two of this one it was a good listen.
I’m gonna be your first like regardless if you like it or not. I’m so hyped!!!
This aged well.
@@jessel3621 😞
Ken's gonna be disappointed because if I read the scene in book two correctly manticores are basically just a poisonous pest like a scorpion.
I find the plot incredibly boring. I don't care about any of the characters except Hodor. He's a fantastic writer but the story is almost as tiring as WOT.
Can we ban the terms 'grimdark' and 'morally grey characters'?
I didn't have an issue with incest used as a plot device. However, GRRM tends to linger too long on the sexual violence scenes to the point of voyeurism.