I've been on UA-cam for years and this is the first time I've felt compelled to comment. I've been in the trade for nearly 40 years, had some bad times ten years ago and now building my business back up again. When you've made mistakes in the past and lost money you can lose confidence and when that happens you just accept day work. There's no pressure, mistakes won't cost you dearly etc etc but you are only earning enough to live on . I've now started pricing bigger and bigger jobs and I've found it difficult, due to past mistakes and finding that balance again, IE knowing your worth but not pricing yourself out of the market . I love the videos and I found this one extremely helpful and it has given me a great deal of confidence going forward, and i will be implementing your advice so thank you Great stuff Cheers Nigel
I’m 63 and was self employed for years mainly kitchen fitting, I have a lot of sympathy for the young men trying to make it in their own, one young builder did a large house extension for my son which was way cheaper than the dearest quote, I could see midway through the job he realised and said he needed more money, because I understood his situation we gave him what he asked for, on completion we gave him a few grand otherwise he would have barely broke even,luckily we had the money to do this, but like you said in the video some people are heartless and have no empathy, ive been there and it felt great to do the decent thing.
Don't put Roger down! He always looks like that because he's actually a zombie, he died at 90 so you should pay some respect for people that are here but are already dead... #Zombieslivesmatter
FYI I had 2 builders quote on a refurbishment of a 2 bed terrace house. The first quote came in at £62k. Just that figure, no breakdown of costs just £62k. The next builder came in and said to me that sounds quite high. After a few days the second builder called me to say he was concerned as he couldn’t get the quote lower than £75k. He then provided me with a full breakdown of the costs in the quote. I ended up going with the more expensive quote because he kept me informed and sent me the comprehensive quote.
I was 27 years in a trade where people came to me, but all the principles apply. This video is spot on. If one out of three people didn't walk away when I priced their job then I was too cheap. Also you get a rep for being a bit pricey that filters out the cheapskates and people who want something for nothing.
I’ve been self employed for 20 years and found this very helpful. So important to quote for what not going to do as well as what you will be doing. You can tell a lot from that first phone call from a customer to wether you blow them off or turn up and give them a price.
That was LOADED with useful content. My thanks to both of these masters who share so much wisdom, delivered as it should, down the pub, spilling their secrets for us all to benefit. I'd like to say though, I think there is more to discuss here, Rodger and Robin discuss the psychology of pricing and customer service but it would be useful to explore other aspects. -When the relationship between the tradesman and the customer starts to deteriorate. -Drawing the line between familiarity and friend. - Managing the back of the van -Organising supply, time management, keeping on top of tool maintenance. Just a few examples. If you do anymore like this, I'll get the round in. Cheers 👍 Sidney Sausage.
New to this channel but I love these chaps. Top class. I’m a huge fan. I’m a strong believer that if you’re polite, tidy, presentable, punctual, reliable and honest, people will pay. As you say, it’s what else you can bring to the job. If it’s a great service, clients will spread the word. I’m just a competent DIYer but would love to be a “Robin”.
Great video! And delivered really well by you both. More trades need to aspire to be the best not the cheapest, stand firm on your price and get the price that your worth.
Roger & Robin - I watch all your videos with interest but this is very interesting please keep them coming. I run a small Plumbing & Heating business with my son & wife and are very fortunate to have a sound client base of professional wealthy people. We have been going for some years and built our pricing from experience & the type of clients we deal with. We have never wanted to be known as cheap and we are not, however we do offer a service over & above most plumbers in our area and our customer retention shows this. I do feel sorry for anyone trying to build a business and get on the ladder these days. I totally agree with Robin & I have always said it just as important if not more important to state on your quotes what you are not going to do along with exactly what you will be doing for the quoted price.
The pricing & estimating that goes on between a builder and a customer opposed to that of a plumber and a customer is completely different. Builders are there much longer and there are so many more considerations to factor in. The two processes are not the same. Plumbers are blitz attackers and deal with smaller quotes and profits, the absorption factor is usually nil if something happens. Builders have way more scope for manoeuvring. Lone tradesmen like sparks, tilers and plumbers have to get right when they quote. The difference can be as tight as 20 quid.
This really helped and many tradesmen are not willing to talk about how they price jobs so this was very informative and I will be putting using these tips for sure. Thanks for taking the time to do this pod cast
Autistic, obsessive compulsive? Hey, stop stealing my lines. I had to pause and go look again. You're right. I counted 5 and that nasty emulsion paint splash too! Tut tut. Will not do.
@TonyGoshiveTV. It's called attention to detail and taking pride in one's work. It's difficult at times when some customers, all they wanna do is squeeze you til your patience cracks. It can become soul destroying. Building up a loyal customer base, who recommend to others is bloody hard work. That does not mean everyone who contacts you off a recommendation is going to be a fair customer. Intuitively one gets to the point where one can sniff out time wasters and penny pinchers it's akin to getting a masters in psychology.
Iv been self employed for 12 years now, mostly subby work. The last 4 or 5 years iv been pricing alot of my own jobs and iv learnt a lot of these points the hard way, dropped a few clangers and been screwed a few times. These are some great tips and iv learnt a few more from this. I wish I'd have watched this a few years ago. Thanks guys
I am a competent DIY man and have been asked to do general handy man work in my local area so far very successful as I try to do the very best quality work I can and my customers have been happy with the results. I only take on small jobs that general trades do want to take on so I am not taking work away from professional tradesmen. Thank you so much for your tutorials they are very helpful and I want to always improve and be more efficient. This video you have done is just what I have been thinking about regarding costs time/materials job details/what you will or wont be doing and it does make a great deal of sense Thank you guys BRILLIANT.
Really great information and obviously well earned and honest. I believe that you MUST meet the potential customer and it is as much so you can size them up as much as they are looking you up and down. Craftsman, tradesman, artisan whatever you call yourself if you can demonstrate value to the customer your price blurs into the background. Also overnight success takes at least 10 years... thanks guys!
When we moved into our house in 1988 we wanted a rear extension done, planned by an architect. The builders we chose were good, though not the cheapest on price, but they detailed in what they would do and what they wouldn't, plus their head office was within walking distance. That closeness proved to be beneficial, because each time an invoice was presented I was there with the cheque the same day. That was a revelation to them and served as a spur to continue the job with alacrity. It was so important to converse regularly with the actual builders. Communication and trust works both ways. We got the extension we wanted, within budget and on time. Mind you, it cost a few gallons of tea, which wasn't in the estimate or quote! lol. So a very informative and confirmatory video. Thank you both.
More of these podcasts episodes please. This is really good content with differing views on important questions for those new and experienced in the industry...
Very good advice. There is a fine balance of pricing to make sure you make a healthy profit and have a safety net tp cover unforseen circumstances that cannot be charged as extras..weather etc. The flip side is that you dont want to price yourself out of tbe job which can happen sometimes. Basically experience will let you make some educated guesses and rationalise a quote meaning you have enough profit in it but your still providing a competetive quote which is good for you winning jobs plus also for your client as none of us should want to overcharge. Unfortunately the best way to learn this is by making the mistakes and gaining that knowledge. I would have loved to have seen this vid when i started out though so a great help for tjose starting put now!
I agree with the commentary. Never sell yourself short. You'll end up trying to compete with cowboys. If your phone never stops ringing you start to put up you prices. Basic principles of supply and demand.
Thanks guys really interesting video. It's a competitive industry but I have found that more and more people are looking for a quality job more than a cheap one. And it's true as you say you almost have to sell yourself before you 'sell' the price. Love the idea of giving them and ball park straight away. I've always had Rogers approach but may just try that way on the next job and see what happens. I find pricing the hardest part of the job. So really appreciate the video. thanks guys
Great advice. Especially for plumbers/gas installers. I went on the cards for someone just because I needed a break from the race to the bottom. It strikes me that business studies/accountancy should be offered with college courses as I don't think a lot of tradesmen in their first couple of years can't price jobs. If they had the academic background in this is would save 2-3 years out in the school of hard knocks. Look forward to the next video.
Great video gent's I'm working as a self employed staircase installer in melbourne Australia And have to price jobs every week. My best piece of advise would be don't be afraid to spend other people's money. Price it at a level which you are happy to work for. If you get the contract happy day's If not you could have possibly saved yourself from a real headache!
Absolutely brilliant information. I've been on the tools just over 20 years. Like you say I'm good with my hands not great at business. I'm a heritage lime plasterer This video answers so many questions intelligently and to the point. I'm looking forward to future podcast. Thanks guys
Enjoyed the video . I’m mainly a bathroom fitter and tiler , and would never do a day rate , like you say the customers are clock watching . I price a full job , with a couple of days contingency and and extra few quid for materials I may forgotten about ! I’ve been in business 20 years and have only come in stuck a couple of times .
Totally agree, when running a business there must be a profit! When I’m submitting the estimates I always make clients aware that there is plenty involved when doing the building project. There are a lot of cheap and lashy builders out there and I’ve been undercut plenty of times, but if people are not prepared to pay for the quality then they should not get it!
Cheers Guys ...Good Stuff. I have found over the years that price does not necessarly govern if, or not, you get the job....for example...Why do people pay £150 + for trendy training shoes when a cheaper £30..£40 pair will do the job..or £200,000 for a car when a £6,000 car will still get you where you need to go....It's the hidden factor...what do they think they are getting for their cash?..Quality, workmanship??? Don't be afraid to put in a price for a job...the price you think it's worth to you...if you don't get the job then move on to the next customer.....or join the race to the bottom...and if that is where you are heading...quit the trades and get a job stacking shelves somewhere. There are lots of people out there with £300 NIKE trainers and £150,000 cars who will pay for good work...leave the people who want something for nothing....to the tradesmen in the race to the bottom. As was mentioed in the video...you have to sell yourself and the job....not just the job. Usually when someone with cash recommends you to a friend....they too have the funds for a nice job....what you don't want is someone you did a cheap job for recommending you to their friends....saying ..he's cheap ...he only charged me X amount....or you'll be working for nothing...forever.
ningis That is so true. I changed a tap washer once for an old lady and charged her £5.00. After that I got a call from another old lady asking if I was the plumber who changed tap washers for a fiver.
A wonderful open conversation about a topic that rarely gets discussed. Well done Roger and Robin! Thank you for some great tips. Looking forward to the next podcast!
I've recently had a number of building jobs completed. Firstly over the phone I have tried to describe the job as accurately as I can, which I hope eliminates any tradies who aren't interested in the job of that type. As regards quotes I don't always accept the cheapest but endeavour to get value for money. At the quoting stage I give extra points if the tradie explains exactly what he is going to do and most importantly not do. This gives me confidence that he knows what he is doing plus allows me to mentally calculate an estimated cost. Extra points are given if the tradie can make suggestions on how to improve the job beyond what I originally specified. For example we'll have a sparkie here to install the new stove and hot plates but over there you have a really dark corner would you like a light installed while he's here. Written quotes should be provided promptly. I have had tradies visit with a good the initial meeting goes well but the quote doesn't arrive. I then go and seek more quotes. Several weeks later the original tradie provides his quote which would have won the job but only because of his delay someone else has the job.
Really informative! Thanks robin and roger, gives me more confidence with pricing jobs whether I get them or not. Be confident in yourself and knowing you’re worth.
Very good and very informative I worked for myself for about 2 years and eventually gave up because of the people I was working for mainly.. They want you to do the work but paying is another thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't realise you have a van to pay for tools to buy and look after and all the sundries screws nut bolts sealants and the list just goes on. I have written money off when people think they can rip you off. Working for yourself is very tough and you learn quick. In the end I had debt luckily not a lot I sold my van and got a job on PAYE I still get shivers when I think about working for myself.
Pricing as an electrician is tough. 85 perfect of our work is hidden - physically and mentally as the customer hasn't a clue about anything that goes on inside a consumer unit. This makes it sooooo easy for another 'electrician' to come along and offer a hell of a low price as his shoddy workmanship isnt understood by the customer.
I came across your podcast because. I have a similar situation where I have to price my jobs according to the person and complexity of the job. Sometimes I get undercut from other competitors. But I stay firm on my price because I know what my time is worth. I am always learning from mistakes and adjusting. Thanks for the informative talk.
I've been a self employed builder for 30 years, it can be hard, dirty and down right miserable work at times, but even after all this time I still find pricing for jobs to be the most difficult part. I find that the majority of people are only too willing to take a chance on a contractor who gave them the cheapest quote, not the smartest move on their part, but it always comes down to the bottom line with those people (how much money can I save). But not only that, I find the majority of folk expect you to give them a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini...and when I'm on a job, say like a small kitchen extension, I've literally lost count on how many times a client has said to me "I didn't realise just how much work went into it"....Ha, say no more...but I'd love a sit down with you guys and exchange stories/horror stories....but time over again, I think I'd choose Plumbing, that's a license to print money :)
Green Genes I’m a plumber and if you think that then you’re mistaken. We experience the exact same thing as you. Plumbing materials are expensive and people don’t realise how expensive. Now and again I have customers wanting supply everything. Also very rarely I go for it. They soon stop after I use there supplied materials in about a day or less 🤣. So much work is involved in both our trades that this is not feasible to work like that. The other good one is “you must have a spare pump or whatever else on the van?”. My answer is usually yes but it’s still been paid for so it’s still the price of what you’d get it from the merchants. The difference is that I have it now at 7pm and it’s Saturday night and can do the job now. The cheek of some of these people beggars belief but more and more tradesman are fighting for the bottom price. It’s sad
The chap on the right in the darker blue shirt makes excellent points when he talks about time (needing to fiddle about in your van, spend time pondering, etc etc) but when he says 'I know bad carpenters who make a lot of money because they're good at business', he should qualify that by saying '...and that's wrong!' or '....and that's a pity'!
I've been in the joinery trade self employed for 29 years,just recently I have priced a couple of jobs where I would have to pay out over £500 so have asked for deposits,one lady refused point blank,the other clearly was not short of money,mercs outside etc but just said don't you have accounts with joinery suppliers,yes I do but not all materials come from the same supplier.I lose confidence when people cannot give you a token deposit which would not even cover materials. One more hate I have is the trend of bank transfers.You pay out ,finish the job to satisfaction then customers say they will transfer it the same day,3 or4 days later you are on the phone asking where it is.
i've not been going long and chasing money and basically being lied to ('my other half deals with the finances and he's on a flight so will pay you later tonight') has shattered my aspirations. Wish i'd studied harder at school
Had this so many times they’ve always paid in the end but it is frustrating you’ve worked like mad not to let them down to stick to your word get everything done on time and be professional then they leave it a week to pay you , also if you email them during the job about knobs/handles little details to keep them involved and happy they reply within minutes , the invoice gets no reply for days they’ve vanished 🙄🤷🏻♂️
One way around this is to ask the customer to provide enough materials to make a start on the job. I would be very wary if a tradesman asked for a deposit without having done any work at all. Once you've put in some skill and effort, and the customer can see you know your job, you'll find they're much happier to pay.
So agree with everything youve said. I used to try to quote to get jobs but never made money, barely made a wage and sometimes paid to do the job. Im a 58 yo carpenter amd now i give a price and stick to it. I also say what i will do amd wjat a wont do.. great talk this one. We have to stop this undercutting each other. I also do the customer pays materials COD and if its a big job pay me weekly. The moment i dont get paid i dont show up. They ask me where are you, i say im at home.
I like the idea too but I wonder how it works with a price? Say your price is £30,000 for labour and materials, would you separate your labour from materials and divide that by how many working days there are until completion date? Or would you have a minimum weekly payment to cover base costs and take the final payment for profit? I think what he's mentioned can only realistically work if your on an agreed day rate... Hmmm
@@MrBelch000 hmmm yeah I mean I guess you could offer different payment terms like staged payments so say you’re building an extension you have initial deposit, first floor bricked up, second floor, roof and then your internal stages so boarding out and stud work payment… at least then that way the customer can physically see what they’re paying for… depends what works
I’m in the process of starting out on my own after being on the cards and this advice is priceless thanks guys looking forward to more great content from you both keeps it up 👍
In a lot of industries I think people and companies are ageist. Do you think, like me who is at the older end of the spectrum, people value you more? I think this a fascinating subject and you have nailed it (no pun intended). Some people want champagne on ginger beet money because they think there is somebody cheaper round the corner. As a carpenter, I get fed up with people wanting a bad job put right. There is usually a reason why a bad job is a bad job. Ability and money!
Pricing is difficult for both sides. Please remember that the customer is at a disadvantage as they know nothing so they are vulnerable to being ripped off and they know it especially when you have firms offering BOGOF or coming back with big reductions when you push back on the price. I think most people would rather pay more for a good job rather than get a bad job done cheaply but how do we tell?
You ask around. Get a couple of quotes. Check UA-cam for DIY videos and figure out the cost of materials yourself. Then you can know how much your being charged for the labor. I gave up on working for myself because I tried to be nice and got screwed frequently. It really seemed like the jerks who just charged obscene amounts were the ones who succeeded. Even though their work was questionable at best. I sleep better working for someone else now. I also make ALOT less.
Thought this was gonna be boring but ended up watching the whole thing somehow. Very interesting subject. Also Bob looks the same way sober as after a few pints 👍😁
"It's a race to the bottom " you said it brother! In 1987 I was working with a crabber (blue crabs/crab pots) 17 years old and making $100 a day. Working six days a week. $600 US dollars in 87 is the same as $2167 in US dollars today. That's considerably more than I make now. I've been climbing down the ladder of success for at least 20 years. Its depressing to think about really. I do enjoy my work, trim carpenter, I get to do some interesting things. But I wouldn't mind a little more money!
I know this video has been up for a long while but what you guys said in this video is exactly why I had to leave the trade that I truly loved (plumbing) . I was working for a company and doing my own jobs weekends was working since I was 13 plumbing with my father and because you're young pricing any job people try and take the piss. I was only charging day rates but they were jobs that truly interested me. Got to the end of a few jobs completely finished and took my time to do quality work and had to chase people for money. Just ridiculous so now I have a job in a factory doing maintenance making more money with health insurance and bonuses. And I don't have to worry about getting my family all the things they need. It's just so sad that it's so easy for people not to pay you and unless you want to waste a lot of your time and money you won't be seeing it. The only people who were guaranteed to pay you were old age pensioners and to be honest I'd price less for them because they'd be making you dinner while you're there and actually appreciated you not making the whole house look like a bombsite when you left.
I am 54 and been a general builder since 16. At 30 I decided to work for myself when I found myself with loads of weekend work. I was always busy but always pricing low to get the work. Now I have changed my approach, I price high and give a high standard of service. its like any industry, there are people who will want to pay peanuts(get work of facebook) there are people who will pay middle of the road and customers who are willing to pay what you are work for a good job. They will recommend you to their friends who will also be prepared to pay what you are worth. Once you price low its hard to lift your prices. If you get a job to price that you are not bothered about doing, price it high. If you get the job, you will learn to love it. I price high and still have 9 months work ahead of me with customers willing to wait. .
Really interesting for a consumer, this. It shows that communication is key. If tradespeople always explained why they quoted as they do, it'd be really handy.
Very interesting , however how do you consider a project on an old property ( say 150 years house ) where there are going to be hidden issues such as woodworm/damp etc . Maybe the walls are out of plumb , loose plasterwork etc . A realistic appraisal - if you have the time .
I enjoyed this chat. I’m a customer nowadays but I am a construction engineer and property developer. It fascinated me that 15k for a bathroom was a reasonable suggestion and 10k is cheap when I paid 3-4 for the last few I’ve had and this talk was a couple of years ago. Must’ve been a substantial change. Also, the fact that you find it odd that a customer might hold back payment until all the snags are done. I’ve tried paying someone before the snags are done and I always end up finishing it myself because they have no interest when all the cash has been paid. We paid a builder we know weekly religiously and it worked really well. I would’ve preferred a job price but that’s how he likes to work so I didn’t really know how long it was going to take. At the moment I’m trying to get jobs done as cheap as possible whilst making sure the work is done right. When getting people in for quotes it’s incredible how many don’t turn up so we have to get extra ones in to compensate so I can get my comparative prices and opinions. One guy will say something is fine while another will say it’s absolutely not fine. One guy will price the job at 25k and one will price it at 15k for seemingly the same thing. A customer has to somehow work out what to do. You either become an overnight expert in the job which I have had to do for a few jobs or you pick the most reasonably priced person who you liked. I’ll tell you now, if you don’t send me a quote in a timely manner it says you’re not going to do the job in a timely manner. If you don’t come across as someone who knows what they’re doing when the questions are fired at you I won’t give you the job. If your price is either too high or too low or if your quote just says ‘building work’ you won’t get the job. It amazes me how many quotes I get in which don’t say what the tradesmen is going to do. I end up sending the job list In reply and requesting confirmation that their quotation is for that list of requested works. As ‘building work’ could mean bloody anything. Totally agree with everything said in this as a customer. I just wish tradesmen were less flakey. I had 7 builders in for a house renovation and none of them quoted it. When I asked them why they would all either ignore me or palm me off with excuses. I can only assume there was something about the job that they didn’t like but I have successfully completed that one getting individual trades in myself. It’s a minefield out there.
Brilliant bit of advice so many times I've under priced a job and had to dip into my day rate. Never a good sign when you're doing that. Keep the videos coming love the content mate. Cheers
I still find it hard to not price a job even though I don't fancy it, over the years I've got a lot of extra work further down the road because of it. Also for me it's good to have to do something you don't fancy as it makes me appreciate the good jobs I enjoy doing even more, and it gives me a bit more variety. As much as I love doing cut roofs it would be a bit boring just doing them and nothing else, I've never really liked the finishing side of things in carpentry but I do plenty of it because it's all part of my job and a lot of my clients appreciate my attention to detail so they don't like using anyone else. Once I've built up a good relationship with a client I tend to do any job they ask of me. I like the tip about lost days when working outside, I generally add on an extra day for every 5 days and in truth those 5 days usually end up being 4 so it gives me an extra 2 days a week to play with to allow for any errors in my calculations as well as the weather and if both go in my favour I get to earn double what I do on a day rate
For anyone starting out on their own - this is the finest lesson you'll ever be taught. Sound common sense - but so often overlooked by many tradesmen who may well be good at the job itself, but so unprofessional when it comes to pricing, dealing with the public and reading the signs. I left the building trade (fed up with lousy money then, and cold winters,) in the late 70's and went into direct sales for a couple of years. Robin's tactic of giving a very rough guide to price is bang on. In sales it's called a 'trial balloon,' and the reaction you get tells you whether it's worth spending time working out a detailed quote: what's the point, if it's way more than they can - or are prepared to - pay? On the other hand, giving a fixed price there and then is rarely a good idea, and underpricing a job just brings misery - either to yourself, the customer.... or sometimes both. And as he says - answer the bloody phone! (unless you're driving.) Even if you know the number and you don't want the work or that particular job: one day - during the next recession, which the building trade experiences every ten to fifteen years - you may well need that customer.
Totally agree...the amount of times I hear customers say they have rung loads of people for quotes because some haven't answered others have, but have never rung back, or have arranged to see a job and not turned up, etc...thats not being a bad businessman, thats being an idiot who treats potential customers like shit. Just ring them back and say sorry to are too busy...that way they may ring again when you do need work The other thing i wont do is ramp a price up to a ridiculous figure, a take it or leave it price, a customer is only going to get ripped off once... you'll end up with a reputation of being too expensive...equally I wont up the price because they have got a big house with expensive cars on the drive....but conversely, I wont drop prices because they cant afford me. Some people will want a 'deal' no matter what price you weigh in with, fuck em, let em play their games with someone else... I dont knock other trades down when they come to me, I just tell them I want one price off them and the others quoting, and I wont knock them down...the balls in their court then
Interesting chat. Managing expectations is key and giving any figure before submitting a quote is not managing expectations. There are many ways of sussing out a customer and it's so valuable to take control, the customer finds out once you've taken your time, carried out due diligence, sounds like legal nonsense but geez you need to be able to think with a clear head if you're not going to either loose money or loose the opportunity. I'm a plasterer and for the past 3 years have employed another, it took years to find the right person. At times I've earned great money but when the market contracts first you don't know it's happening second you drop prices to pay the bills. It's a minefield but I'd rather be doing this than anything else.
Absolutely bang on! I’m just a handyman that does small time building work, I strive to accomplish a good standard of work with honest opinions. I work on an estimate system and seems to not fail me..... but I lose alot of work through tire kickers and folk who ‘thought it would cost less’ months have gone by if not years and they never had the work done. One thing I can say is that it wasn’t my pricing. Listing your wills and wont’s Is crucial! Or you get ‘can you just do this while you have your tool bag out’? Great video , love you guys!
Hey guys, good advice there, I have been in business for nearly 30 years now, and doing basement conversions for the past 15 years, (Roger you were going to come up north to see us at some point, Back To Basement) so a couple of good tips, 1. you might want to estimate the price in front of the client, however, you state the price 10-15% higher, if the client indicates to you that there are interested in a written quotation, you then quote for the right amount, the client already has an expectation of the inflated price, ones they get the written quote 10-15% less, they will have the impression that your price is fair, 2. Try and get a template for your quotes, you can find some on an online search, it looks more professional to the client, 3. and old trick I use when quoting is when itemizing my quotes I add some pennies to the price, rather than stating round price, ie £359.81 £572.29 it looks as if you have calculated every single factor that made the quote, works for me well :) I hope this helps,
Hello Rubi Good to hear from you after all this time. I am still intending to come and see you. Good tips on pricing. We will return to this subject for sure.
Great video. Please do more like this. It’s funny how many builders don’t like talking about pricing as they’re worried about giving too much away but it’s so important
Great video, I work for someone (plan to gain as much experience as I can and then do my own thing) but I do little jobs at the weekend where possible, I try to workout what price the customer would get the materials for vs what price I would get them for, I’ll always charge out the higher price and make a little profit on the materials, why shouldn’t we?? We’re the ones having to organise and collect them
What gets me is everyone expects free quotes could spend every day quoting jobs you dont get when i go to look at a kitchen its not to see what they have for me to fit its always to go through everything they want and design it with them then go and get drawings price materials price labour then plumbers and sparks prices. Then give the price and in a blink of an eye too expensive no haggling just a straight no as if they were only interested in seeing what it costs without actually wanting it. Theres a day and a half gone because i dont do rough estimates on kitchens better of charging for consultation, drawing and exact quote if they dont want to pay that then your prob 80% sure your not getting that job. P.s i do rough estimates on certain jobs but i wouldnt say 2000 i give 2 numbers allowing for unforeseeable things so between 2000 and 3000 and if they say 3000 is to much you just say its rough and i can guarantee if you say 2000 and its wrong youll more than likely be footing 30-40 % of the extras yourself
This is a great video, your advice about turning down jobs is spot on. Its taken me years to get confident at doing this. I like an easy life so now basicly work day rate for about six regular clients. i make a decent living, but not a great profit. The advantage is i know my clients so get paid reliability and dont have to spend time priceing new work constantly. I like to think im good at what i do but as a business owner im not very motivated.
I enjoyed listening to the trials and tribulations of the tradesmen. Personally, and as a customer, I find where they fail is when it comes to job specifics. Please don't just throw out a price without sharing with your customer how the job is going to be done first. Secondly, supply a detailed quote for quantities of the materials you are going to use for the project + cost of labour. As your interviewee stated: "sell your vision" to the customer. Give them an appreciation of what the job entails. Maybe then, you won't have too much trouble getting the job? Nobody wants to hire someone who is vague on details and only knows how much he wants to be paid for the job. Both sides need to put themselves in the other's shoes and have an honest dialogue. The devil is in the detail.
I have been in business for 35 years and there is so much truth in what you both say and I have made all those mistakes some of which had huge implications in mine and my family’s home life ! a learning experience but better if I’d had at least some insight ,what frustrates me is why do the construction colleges not teach basic business and money skills ? I know lots of people who finished their apprenticeship and were made to be “self employed “ on the old 714 system now cis with absolutely no idea of the implications . This is a really worthwhile video
Price condition ...... means roughly guessing the price your head and then adding 30%. So when they get your quote its alot cheaper if you have guessed it right.
As a self employed preservation technician, there's some great nuggets presented in your conversation that helps me push harder and keep on top of the business side of the job. Would love to hear about some recommendations for book keeping/accounts for us 'sole traders'...keep up the good work fellas
I run a business where I make stuff, totally unrelated but pricing your time and costing materials just the same, I spent two years making no money because I didn't want to over charge. Now I turn people away if they want something below the profit margin I stick to, my gross margin is 80% which seems outrageous to some but when it shakes down I net 50% and make a reasonable living. If you don't value your time nobody else will.
Sometimes (rarely these days but just now and again,) I price a job and get asked "will you do it for £xxxx (less than the quote, ) or "So and so says he'll do it for £xxxx - can you match it?" Just say NO. Nothing more, no explanations, just one word.
Always remember, any fool can work for nothing. Robin is quite right, always be courteous and prompt and answer the phone, even when you know it’s the customer from hell!
The trick is like Robin said, weeding out the clients from hell! Personally what worked for me was telling the client I was busy for xyz months. If they are willing to wait, they are always good clients. No good ever comes from taking a job where they want you to start next week...
However it's not always safe or practical to answer the phone. Have a decent voicemail message. And it wasn't that long a go we didn't have mobile phones, what did people do then, left a message on your landline ;)
Price conditioning is the most important aspect of selling. In order for price conditioning to work it must be a good bit higher than the price it will end up. Thats why its called price conditioning. I will obviously need to price it but we did one last month and that was around......then when its less they have won a watch. Wife goes into a shop and says darling do you like this dress. How much is it dear? Its 230! Holy crap! Then she shows you the label and its 55! She's getting the dress! Not really a 50,000 extension but you get the idea. The principle is the same. There will always be someone cheaper. You have to find your unique selling point. Ask your happy customers to put something on paper and build a folio. Ask for referrals. Its hard when you first start out. When you start to get a good reputation. It gets easier.
Great bit of advice for the newbbies to the trade and established business`s i`v been in business for 34 yrs l advertised for the first 12 months and have not advertised since, all my work comes by recommendation, l always have my van sign written so people know who you are and as a master crafts man l show this as well on the van, some years back l had customers waiting 12 month before l could get to them for specialised work and the only way l could price these jobs was by estimating, a quote would not work. any large jobs l had stage payments and like you said this can make you short on money l must say l had a good working relationship with many of my customers of which over the years we have grown older together and most l don`t even have to give an estimate, also have worked around the med and thats an eye opener not the work but the people you do the work for when it comes to price they want tradesman quality at diy prices and these are brits there really tight, any body can be a busy fool but not this lad, price the jobs right but dont be greedy, these people could use you for years, you have got to make a living and profit thats the way of self employment. l dont give estimates for insurance work any more there just a waste of my time as most insurance company`s have there own contractors who do the work but the customer has to get three estimates ? thanks again Roger & Robin for another great video keep them coming.
I used to price but couldn’t be bothered with the hassle. When you price, there’s probably someone else who’s gonna outprice you and you know that the guy who’s outpriced you is gonna add extra’s.... he’s probably a good salesman, especially on the bigger jobs. I do all my work on day rate, turn up, do a days work, go home and all my work is from recommendation. It’s so easy. I’ll admit though, pricing will make you more money, but big bucks ain’t everything. I’m a general builder, so pricing is difficult. I can pay the bills and the stress is minimal. Each to their own.
A estimate is a rough calculation of the cost you give the customer a quote is the price that the contracter must stick to & do the job for but remember don't get the quote wrong you can't changed it & don't short yourself 👍🏠☘️
This is a second watch for me, I was looking at how the relationship between you guys seems to evolve. You are both obviously experienced but seem to look at the industry from slightly different angles. At the time of writing Robin has now set up his own channel and its very successful, Roger has continued with his channel and has also continued to be successful. I watch both! 😁 😁 but, I feel something is sadly lacking in both channels now. I miss Roger's humorous interactions opposed to Robin's focused drive.
This video is absolute gold for someone like me who is employed but wants to take the step to go on their own. Fills me with more confidence! Nice one!!
We just had a kitchen refit, new flooring and new electrical work done. The bloke we went with gave us an estimated cost for completion, but the estimation was 10% above what he said it would probably cost. To account for any issues during the refit he wanted to make sure we had a price from the beginning that wouldn't go up. We paid 50% of the price up front and the rest on full completion. Each stage the builder walked us through what was going on, provided us with receipts for purchased building materials etc, showed us examples of the "extra" work that the 10% estimate was to cover. By the end we paid less than the full estimate, only about 4% of the "extra" was needed for labour/materials etc. Not sure if this is a good way to work, maybe a little convoluted but for us it worked out. We had a top end price we knew wouldn't balloon out of control and in the end we paid less than the full quote and I feel we got good value because the builder took the time to explain what was happening along the way
Me Again, Just to pick up on a point about the client, I have been to see potential jobs which may be logistically challenging and when you sat down trying to explain the work involved to the client they have the television going full blast one of them then leaves the room and gets involved in some thing else, I'm afraid then I generally think to myself this job is going to be a nightmare so quite often I will walk away from it.
Top videos lads. My input is specialise in something, find your niche and read up on it, continually strive to know more about it and be the best in that field. Eat sleep and drink it. Learn to communicate with your customer. You are correct Roger, learn to walk away from a customer when your gut tells you it's not right. Go and learn how to estimate, maybe its a BTEC diploma etc on an evening course. Keep your jobs written up on the pc and your prices and materials along with time taken. Next time you have a similar job you can look back to a similar job. From this you can calculate your linear or square metre rates. Join an industry body like Master Builders etc. and they can help with legals, contracts, health and safety etc. Get all variations from the original work signed off by the customer before doing them, otherwise don't do them, a college lecturer used to say there were better ways to go broke than not getting paid for work you have done like sitting on the beach. Cheers 👍
I've been on UA-cam for years and this is the first time I've felt compelled to comment. I've been in the trade for nearly 40 years, had some bad times ten years ago and now building my business back up again. When you've made mistakes in the past and lost money you can lose confidence and when that happens you just accept day work.
There's no pressure, mistakes won't cost you dearly etc etc but you are only earning enough to live on
. I've now started pricing bigger and bigger jobs and I've found it difficult, due to past mistakes and finding that balance again, IE knowing your worth but not pricing yourself out of the market
. I love the videos and I found this one extremely helpful and it has given me a great deal of confidence going forward, and i will be implementing your advice so thank you
Great stuff
Cheers
Nigel
I’m 63 and was self employed for years mainly kitchen fitting, I have a lot of sympathy for the young men trying to make it in their own, one young builder did a large house extension for my son which was way cheaper than the dearest quote, I could see midway through the job he realised and said he needed more money, because I understood his situation we gave him what he asked for, on completion we gave him a few grand otherwise he would have barely broke even,luckily we had the money to do this, but like you said in the video some people are heartless and have no empathy, ive been there and it felt great to do the decent thing.
Bang on chaps
Not many auld cnts like us left in the world
This is probably the best 27.41 minutes I’ve ever spent listening to people who know their stuff , thank you so much Robin and Roger
This is probably the best compliment we've ever had, thanks Bob!
Excellent pair of tradesmen. Both perfectionists in there trades.
Robin is class. Could listen to him all day, find myself just agreeing with everything he says. Roger you look half cut lol
Don't put Roger down! He always looks like that because he's actually a zombie, he died at 90 so you should pay some respect for people that are here but are already dead... #Zombieslivesmatter
FYI I had 2 builders quote on a refurbishment of a 2 bed terrace house. The first quote came in at £62k. Just that figure, no breakdown of costs just £62k. The next builder came in and said to me that sounds quite high. After a few days the second builder called me to say he was concerned as he couldn’t get the quote lower than £75k. He then provided me with a full breakdown of the costs in the quote. I ended up going with the more expensive quote because he kept me informed and sent me the comprehensive quote.
I was 27 years in a trade where people came to me, but all the principles apply. This video is spot on. If one out of three people didn't walk away when I priced their job then I was too cheap. Also you get a rep for being a bit pricey that filters out the cheapskates and people who want something for nothing.
You are so right, price to lose jobs not to get them
Can tell by Robin's watch he's good at pricing 😂
And boy doesn’t he like showing it off
I’ve been self employed for 20 years and found this very helpful. So important to quote for what not going to do as well as what you will be doing. You can tell a lot from that first phone call from a customer to wether you blow them off or turn up and give them a price.
That was LOADED with useful content.
My thanks to both of these masters who share so much wisdom, delivered as it should, down the pub, spilling their secrets for us all to benefit.
I'd like to say though, I think there is more to discuss here, Rodger and Robin discuss the psychology of pricing and customer service but it would be useful to explore other aspects.
-When the relationship between the tradesman and the customer starts to deteriorate.
-Drawing the line between familiarity and friend.
- Managing the back of the van
-Organising supply, time management, keeping on top of tool maintenance.
Just a few examples.
If you do anymore like this, I'll get the round in.
Cheers 👍
Sidney Sausage.
New to this channel but I love these chaps. Top class. I’m a huge fan. I’m a strong believer that if you’re polite, tidy, presentable, punctual, reliable and honest, people will pay. As you say, it’s what else you can bring to the job. If it’s a great service, clients will spread the word. I’m just a competent DIYer but would love to be a “Robin”.
Great video! And delivered really well by you both. More trades need to aspire to be the best not the cheapest, stand firm on your price and get the price that your worth.
Roger & Robin - I watch all your videos with interest but this is very interesting please keep them coming. I run a small Plumbing & Heating business with my son & wife and are very fortunate to have a sound client base of professional wealthy people. We have been going for some years and built our pricing from experience & the type of clients we deal with. We have never wanted to be known as cheap and we are not, however we do offer a service over & above most plumbers in our area and our customer retention shows this. I do feel sorry for anyone trying to build a business and get on the ladder these days. I totally agree with Robin & I have always said it just as important if not more important to state on your quotes what you are not going to do along with exactly what you will be doing for the quoted price.
The pricing & estimating that goes on between a builder and a customer opposed to that of a plumber and a customer is completely different. Builders are there much longer and there are so many more considerations to factor in. The two processes are not the same. Plumbers are blitz attackers and deal with smaller quotes and profits, the absorption factor is usually nil if something happens. Builders have way more scope for manoeuvring. Lone tradesmen like sparks, tilers and plumbers have to get right when they quote. The difference can be as tight as 20 quid.
Both men are right. I lean towards Rogers mentality. I really avoid giving off the cuff prices, I like to go away and crunch the numbers.
´Listen’ 👂 boys and girls... this is what they don’t tell you at college
This really helped and many tradesmen are not willing to talk about how they price jobs so this was very informative and I will be putting using these tips for sure. Thanks for taking the time to do this pod cast
Very helpful stuff here. I struggle with pricing and the insights here are priceless!!
Cheers guys.
The holes in the wall behind are really distracting
Autistic, obsessive compulsive? Hey, stop stealing my lines. I had to pause and go look again. You're right. I counted 5 and that nasty emulsion paint splash too! Tut tut. Will not do.
@TonyGoshiveTV. It's called attention to detail and taking pride in one's work. It's difficult at times when some customers, all they wanna do is squeeze you til your patience cracks. It can become soul destroying. Building up a loyal customer base, who recommend to others is bloody hard work. That does not mean everyone who contacts you off a recommendation is going to be a fair customer. Intuitively one gets to the point where one can sniff out time wasters and penny pinchers it's akin to getting a masters in psychology.
Thought it was just me !
Hahaha I was thinking the same thing!
Iv been self employed for 12 years now, mostly subby work. The last 4 or 5 years iv been pricing alot of my own jobs and iv learnt a lot of these points the hard way, dropped a few clangers and been screwed a few times. These are some great tips and iv learnt a few more from this. I wish I'd have watched this a few years ago. Thanks guys
architects must do mandatory 2 year laborer site experience !!
I am a competent DIY man and have been asked to do general handy man work in my local area so far very successful as I try to do the very best quality work I can and my customers have been happy with the results.
I only take on small jobs that general trades do want to take on so I am not taking work away from professional tradesmen.
Thank you so much for your tutorials they are very helpful and I want to always improve and be more efficient.
This video you have done is just what I have been thinking about regarding costs time/materials job details/what you will or wont be doing and it does make a great deal of sense Thank you guys BRILLIANT.
Really great information and obviously well earned and honest. I believe that you MUST meet the potential customer and it is as much so you can size them up as much as they are looking you up and down. Craftsman, tradesman, artisan whatever you call yourself if you can demonstrate value to the customer your price blurs into the background. Also overnight success takes at least 10 years... thanks guys!
When we moved into our house in 1988 we wanted a rear extension done, planned by an architect.
The builders we chose were good, though not the cheapest on price, but they detailed in what they would do and what they wouldn't, plus their head office was within walking distance.
That closeness proved to be beneficial, because each time an invoice was presented I was there with the cheque the same day. That was a revelation to them and served as a spur to continue the job with alacrity. It was so important to converse regularly with the actual builders. Communication and trust works both ways. We got the extension we wanted, within budget and on time. Mind you, it cost a few gallons of tea, which wasn't in the estimate or quote! lol.
So a very informative and confirmatory video. Thank you both.
A lot of people say it is not what the builder charges that hurts but what is has cost in tea and sugar... The hidden extra.
More of these podcasts episodes please.
This is really good content with differing views on important questions for those new and experienced in the industry...
Very good advice. There is a fine balance of pricing to make sure you make a healthy profit and have a safety net tp cover unforseen circumstances that cannot be charged as extras..weather etc. The flip side is that you dont want to price yourself out of tbe job which can happen sometimes. Basically experience will let you make some educated guesses and rationalise a quote meaning you have enough profit in it but your still providing a competetive quote which is good for you winning jobs plus also for your client as none of us should want to overcharge. Unfortunately the best way to learn this is by making the mistakes and gaining that knowledge. I would have loved to have seen this vid when i started out though so a great help for tjose starting put now!
Thanks for sharing your hard earned advice!
I agree with the commentary. Never sell yourself short. You'll end up trying to compete with cowboys. If your phone never stops ringing you start to put up you prices. Basic principles of supply and demand.
Thanks guys really interesting video. It's a competitive industry but I have found that more and more people are looking for a quality job more than a cheap one. And it's true as you say you almost have to sell yourself before you 'sell' the price. Love the idea of giving them and ball park straight away. I've always had Rogers approach but may just try that way on the next job and see what happens. I find pricing the hardest part of the job. So really appreciate the video. thanks guys
Great advice. Especially for plumbers/gas installers. I went on the cards for someone just because I needed a break from the race to the bottom. It strikes me that business studies/accountancy should be offered with college courses as I don't think a lot of tradesmen in their first couple of years can't price jobs. If they had the academic background in this is would save 2-3 years out in the school of hard knocks. Look forward to the next video.
Great video gent's
I'm working as a self employed staircase installer in melbourne Australia
And have to price jobs every week.
My best piece of advise would be don't be afraid to spend other people's money.
Price it at a level which you are happy to work for.
If you get the contract happy day's
If not you could have possibly saved yourself from a real headache!
Absolutely brilliant information. I've been on the tools just over 20 years. Like you say I'm good with my hands not great at business. I'm a heritage lime plasterer This video answers so many questions intelligently and to the point. I'm looking forward to future podcast. Thanks guys
Enjoyed the video . I’m mainly a bathroom fitter and tiler , and would never do a day rate , like you say the customers are clock watching .
I price a full job , with a couple of days contingency and and extra few quid for materials I may forgotten about !
I’ve been in business 20 years and have only come in stuck a couple of times .
Totally agree, when running a business there must be a profit! When I’m submitting the estimates I always make clients aware that there is plenty involved when doing the building project. There are a lot of cheap and lashy builders out there and I’ve been undercut plenty of times, but if people are not prepared to pay for the quality then they should not get it!
Cheers Guys ...Good Stuff.
I have found over the years that price does not necessarly govern if, or not, you get the job....for example...Why do people pay £150 + for trendy training shoes when a cheaper £30..£40 pair will do the job..or £200,000 for a car when a £6,000 car will still get you where you need to go....It's the hidden factor...what do they think they are getting for their cash?..Quality, workmanship???
Don't be afraid to put in a price for a job...the price you think it's worth to you...if you don't get the job then move on to the next customer.....or join the race to the bottom...and if that is where you are heading...quit the trades and get a job stacking shelves somewhere.
There are lots of people out there with £300 NIKE trainers and £150,000 cars who will pay for good work...leave the people who want something for nothing....to the tradesmen in the race to the bottom. As was mentioed in the video...you have to sell yourself and the job....not just the job. Usually when someone with cash recommends you to a friend....they too have the funds for a nice job....what you don't want is someone you did a cheap job for recommending you to their friends....saying ..he's cheap ...he only charged me X amount....or you'll be working for nothing...forever.
ningis
That is so true. I changed a tap washer once for an old lady and charged her £5.00. After that I got a call from another old lady asking if I was the plumber who changed tap washers for a fiver.
40 years a Chippy still skint, very enjoyable talk,thanks
A wonderful open conversation about a topic that rarely gets discussed. Well done Roger and Robin! Thank you for some great tips. Looking forward to the next podcast!
I've recently had a number of building jobs completed.
Firstly over the phone I have tried to describe the job as accurately as I can, which I hope eliminates any tradies who aren't interested in the job of that type.
As regards quotes I don't always accept the cheapest but endeavour to get value for money. At the quoting stage I give extra points if the tradie explains exactly what he is going to do and most importantly not do. This gives me confidence that he knows what he is doing plus allows me to mentally calculate an estimated cost. Extra points are given if the tradie can make suggestions on how to improve the job beyond what I originally specified. For example we'll have a sparkie here to install the new stove and hot plates but over there you have a really dark corner would you like a light installed while he's here.
Written quotes should be provided promptly. I have had tradies visit with a good the initial meeting goes well but the quote doesn't arrive. I then go and seek more quotes. Several weeks later the original tradie provides his quote which would have won the job but only because of his delay someone else has the job.
Really informative! Thanks robin and roger, gives me more confidence with pricing jobs whether I get them or not. Be confident in yourself and knowing you’re worth.
Very good and very informative I worked for myself for about 2 years and eventually gave up because of the people I was working for mainly.. They want you to do the work but paying is another thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't realise you have a van to pay for tools to buy and look after and all the sundries screws nut bolts sealants and the list just goes on. I have written money off when people think they can rip you off. Working for yourself is very tough and you learn quick. In the end I had debt luckily not a lot I sold my van and got a job on PAYE I still get shivers when I think about working for myself.
Pricing as an electrician is tough. 85 perfect of our work is hidden - physically and mentally as the customer hasn't a clue about anything that goes on inside a consumer unit. This makes it sooooo easy for another 'electrician' to come along and offer a hell of a low price as his shoddy workmanship isnt understood by the customer.
Roger is a genuine top bloke i would have him build for me anytime.
Haven’t seen one of this pod casts for some time. Please continue to make them.
We recently did one with NG Bailey about Apprenticeships in construction! ua-cam.com/video/lokHoSLLIfE/v-deo.html
I came across your podcast because. I have a similar situation where I have to price my jobs according to the person and complexity of the job. Sometimes I get undercut from other competitors. But I stay firm on my price because I know what my time is worth. I am always learning from mistakes and adjusting. Thanks for the informative talk.
Excellent chat. Always the hot topic after a good days work in my local. Understanding the psychology of the customers goes a long way...
I've been a self employed builder for 30 years, it can be hard, dirty and down right miserable work at times, but even after all this time I still find pricing for jobs to be the most difficult part. I find that the majority of people are only too willing to take a chance on a contractor who gave them the cheapest quote, not the smartest move on their part, but it always comes down to the bottom line with those people (how much money can I save). But not only that, I find the majority of folk expect you to give them a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini...and when I'm on a job, say like a small kitchen extension, I've literally lost count on how many times a client has said to me "I didn't realise just how much work went into it"....Ha, say no more...but I'd love a sit down with you guys and exchange stories/horror stories....but time over again, I think I'd choose Plumbing, that's a license to print money :)
Green Genes I’m a plumber and if you think that then you’re mistaken. We experience the exact same thing as you. Plumbing materials are expensive and people don’t realise how expensive. Now and again I have customers wanting supply everything. Also very rarely I go for it. They soon stop after I use there supplied materials in about a day or less 🤣. So much work is involved in both our trades that this is not feasible to work like that. The other good one is “you must have a spare pump or whatever else on the van?”. My answer is usually yes but it’s still been paid for so it’s still the price of what you’d get it from the merchants. The difference is that I have it now at 7pm and it’s Saturday night and can do the job now. The cheek of some of these people beggars belief but more and more tradesman are fighting for the bottom price. It’s sad
The chap on the right in the darker blue shirt makes excellent points when he talks about time (needing to fiddle about in your van, spend time pondering, etc etc) but when he says 'I know bad carpenters who make a lot of money because they're good at business', he should qualify that by saying '...and that's wrong!' or '....and that's a pity'!
I've been in the joinery trade self employed for 29 years,just recently I have priced a couple of jobs where I would have to pay out over £500 so have asked for deposits,one lady refused point blank,the other clearly was not short of money,mercs outside etc but just said don't you have accounts with joinery suppliers,yes I do but not all materials come from the same supplier.I lose confidence when people cannot give you a token deposit which would not even cover materials.
One more hate I have is the trend of bank transfers.You pay out ,finish the job to satisfaction then customers say they will transfer it the same day,3 or4 days later you are on the phone asking where it is.
i've not been going long and chasing money and basically being lied to ('my other half deals with the finances and he's on a flight so will pay you later tonight') has shattered my aspirations. Wish i'd studied harder at school
Had this so many times they’ve always paid in the end but it is frustrating you’ve worked like mad not to let them down to stick to your word get everything done on time and be professional then they leave it a week to pay you , also if you email them during the job about knobs/handles little details to keep them involved and happy they reply within minutes , the invoice gets no reply for days they’ve vanished 🙄🤷🏻♂️
One way around this is to ask the customer to provide enough materials to make a start on the job. I would be very wary if a tradesman asked for a deposit without having done any work at all. Once you've put in some skill and effort, and the customer can see you know your job, you'll find they're much happier to pay.
Excellent and helpful thanks for taking the time to make this. It’s really difficult to get information like this.
I can relate to all of this. It's a learning curve right enough!
So agree with everything youve said. I used to try to quote to get jobs but never made money, barely made a wage and sometimes paid to do the job. Im a 58 yo carpenter amd now i give a price and stick to it. I also say what i will do amd wjat a wont do.. great talk this one. We have to stop this undercutting each other. I also do the customer pays materials COD and if its a big job pay me weekly. The moment i dont get paid i dont show up. They ask me where are you, i say im at home.
Really appreciated that last tip for asking for payment weekly on big long standing projects… nice one!
I like the idea too but I wonder how it works with a price? Say your price is £30,000 for labour and materials, would you separate your labour from materials and divide that by how many working days there are until completion date? Or would you have a minimum weekly payment to cover base costs and take the final payment for profit? I think what he's mentioned can only realistically work if your on an agreed day rate... Hmmm
@@MrBelch000 hmmm yeah I mean I guess you could offer different payment terms like staged payments so say you’re building an extension you have initial deposit, first floor bricked up, second floor, roof and then your internal stages so boarding out and stud work payment… at least then that way the customer can physically see what they’re paying for… depends what works
I’m in the process of starting out on my own after being on the cards and this advice is priceless thanks guys looking forward to more great content from you both keeps it up 👍
In a lot of industries I think people and companies are ageist. Do you think, like me who is at the older end of the spectrum, people value you more? I think this a fascinating subject and you have nailed it (no pun intended). Some people want champagne on ginger beet money because they think there is somebody cheaper round the corner. As a carpenter, I get fed up with people wanting a bad job put right. There is usually a reason why a bad job is a bad job. Ability and money!
Pricing is difficult for both sides. Please remember that the customer is at a disadvantage as they know nothing so they are vulnerable to being ripped off and they know it especially when you have firms offering BOGOF or coming back with big reductions when you push back on the price. I think most people would rather pay more for a good job rather than get a bad job done cheaply but how do we tell?
You ask around. Get a couple of quotes. Check UA-cam for DIY videos and figure out the cost of materials yourself. Then you can know how much your being charged for the labor.
I gave up on working for myself because I tried to be nice and got screwed frequently.
It really seemed like the jerks who just charged obscene amounts were the ones who succeeded. Even though their work was questionable at best.
I sleep better working for someone else now. I also make ALOT less.
Trades are also vulnerable to being ripped off. My friend just lost 15k because the customer declared bankruptcy a week after completion.
Excellent information! Thanks for sharing this knowledge.
Thought this was gonna be boring but ended up watching the whole thing somehow. Very interesting subject.
Also Bob looks the same way sober as after a few pints 👍😁
"It's a race to the bottom " you said it brother! In 1987 I was working with a crabber (blue crabs/crab pots) 17 years old and making $100 a day. Working six days a week. $600 US dollars in 87 is the same as $2167 in US dollars today. That's considerably more than I make now. I've been climbing down the ladder of success for at least 20 years. Its depressing to think about really.
I do enjoy my work, trim carpenter, I get to do some interesting things. But I wouldn't mind a little more money!
I know this video has been up for a long while but what you guys said in this video is exactly why I had to leave the trade that I truly loved (plumbing) . I was working for a company and doing my own jobs weekends was working since I was 13 plumbing with my father and because you're young pricing any job people try and take the piss. I was only charging day rates but they were jobs that truly interested me. Got to the end of a few jobs completely finished and took my time to do quality work and had to chase people for money. Just ridiculous so now I have a job in a factory doing maintenance making more money with health insurance and bonuses. And I don't have to worry about getting my family all the things they need. It's just so sad that it's so easy for people not to pay you and unless you want to waste a lot of your time and money you won't be seeing it. The only people who were guaranteed to pay you were old age pensioners and to be honest I'd price less for them because they'd be making you dinner while you're there and actually appreciated you not making the whole house look like a bombsite when you left.
I am 54 and been a general builder since 16. At 30 I decided to work for myself when I found myself with loads of weekend work. I was always busy but always pricing low to get the work. Now I have changed my approach, I price high and give a high standard of service. its like any industry, there are people who will want to pay peanuts(get work of facebook) there are people who will pay middle of the road and customers who are willing to pay what you are work for a good job. They will recommend you to their friends who will also be prepared to pay what you are worth. Once you price low its hard to lift your prices. If you get a job to price that you are not bothered about doing, price it high. If you get the job, you will learn to love it. I price high and still have 9 months work ahead of me with customers willing to wait.
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Really interesting for a consumer, this. It shows that communication is key. If tradespeople always explained why they quoted as they do, it'd be really handy.
Every thing robin says is right a smart guy
Very interesting , however how do you consider a project on an old property ( say 150 years house ) where there are going to be hidden issues such as woodworm/damp etc . Maybe the walls are out of plumb , loose plasterwork etc . A realistic appraisal - if you have the time .
This is just amazing. Two top guys.
I enjoyed this chat.
I’m a customer nowadays but I am a construction engineer and property developer.
It fascinated me that 15k for a bathroom was a reasonable suggestion and 10k is cheap when I paid 3-4 for the last few I’ve had and this talk was a couple of years ago. Must’ve been a substantial change. Also, the fact that you find it odd that a customer might hold back payment until all the snags are done. I’ve tried paying someone before the snags are done and I always end up finishing it myself because they have no interest when all the cash has been paid.
We paid a builder we know weekly religiously and it worked really well. I would’ve preferred a job price but that’s how he likes to work so I didn’t really know how long it was going to take.
At the moment I’m trying to get jobs done as cheap as possible whilst making sure the work is done right. When getting people in for quotes it’s incredible how many don’t turn up so we have to get extra ones in to compensate so I can get my comparative prices and opinions. One guy will say something is fine while another will say it’s absolutely not fine. One guy will price the job at 25k and one will price it at 15k for seemingly the same thing.
A customer has to somehow work out what to do. You either become an overnight expert in the job which I have had to do for a few jobs or you pick the most reasonably priced person who you liked.
I’ll tell you now, if you don’t send me a quote in a timely manner it says you’re not going to do the job in a timely manner. If you don’t come across as someone who knows what they’re doing when the questions are fired at you I won’t give you the job. If your price is either too high or too low or if your quote just says ‘building work’ you won’t get the job. It amazes me how many quotes I get in which don’t say what the tradesmen is going to do. I end up sending the job list In reply and requesting confirmation that their quotation is for that list of requested works. As ‘building work’ could mean bloody anything.
Totally agree with everything said in this as a customer. I just wish tradesmen were less flakey. I had 7 builders in for a house renovation and none of them quoted it. When I asked them why they would all either ignore me or palm me off with excuses. I can only assume there was something about the job that they didn’t like but I have successfully completed that one getting individual trades in myself.
It’s a minefield out there.
Brilliant bit of advice so many times I've under priced a job and had to dip into my day rate. Never a good sign when you're doing that. Keep the videos coming love the content mate. Cheers
I still find it hard to not price a job even though I don't fancy it, over the years I've got a lot of extra work further down the road because of it. Also for me it's good to have to do something you don't fancy as it makes me appreciate the good jobs I enjoy doing even more, and it gives me a bit more variety. As much as I love doing cut roofs it would be a bit boring just doing them and nothing else, I've never really liked the finishing side of things in carpentry but I do plenty of it because it's all part of my job and a lot of my clients appreciate my attention to detail so they don't like using anyone else. Once I've built up a good relationship with a client I tend to do any job they ask of me.
I like the tip about lost days when working outside, I generally add on an extra day for every 5 days and in truth those 5 days usually end up being 4 so it gives me an extra 2 days a week to play with to allow for any errors in my calculations as well as the weather and if both go in my favour I get to earn double what I do on a day rate
For anyone starting out on their own - this is the finest lesson you'll ever be taught. Sound common sense - but so often overlooked by many tradesmen who may well be good at the job itself, but so unprofessional when it comes to pricing, dealing with the public and reading the signs. I left the building trade (fed up with lousy money then, and cold winters,) in the late 70's and went into direct sales for a couple of years. Robin's tactic of giving a very rough guide to price is bang on. In sales it's called a 'trial balloon,' and the reaction you get tells you whether it's worth spending time working out a detailed quote: what's the point, if it's way more than they can - or are prepared to - pay? On the other hand, giving a fixed price there and then is rarely a good idea, and underpricing a job just brings misery - either to yourself, the customer.... or sometimes both. And as he says - answer the bloody phone! (unless you're driving.) Even if you know the number and you don't want the work or that particular job: one day - during the next recession, which the building trade experiences every ten to fifteen years - you may well need that customer.
Totally agree...the amount of times I hear customers say they have rung loads of people for quotes because some haven't answered others have, but have never rung back, or have arranged to see a job and not turned up, etc...thats not being a bad businessman, thats being an idiot who treats potential customers like shit.
Just ring them back and say sorry to are too busy...that way they may ring again when you do need work
The other thing i wont do is ramp a price up to a ridiculous figure, a take it or leave it price, a customer is only going to get ripped off once... you'll end up with a reputation of being too expensive...equally I wont up the price because they have got a big house with expensive cars on the drive....but conversely, I wont drop prices because they cant afford me.
Some people will want a 'deal' no matter what price you weigh in with, fuck em, let em play their games with someone else... I dont knock other trades down when they come to me, I just tell them I want one price off them and the others quoting, and I wont knock them down...the balls in their court then
@7:00 have to agree, people buy from people. I’d buy from Robin all day long as he comes across as honest and friendly
Interesting chat. Managing expectations is key and giving any figure before submitting a quote is not managing expectations. There are many ways of sussing out a customer and it's so valuable to take control, the customer finds out once you've taken your time, carried out due diligence, sounds like legal nonsense but geez you need to be able to think with a clear head if you're not going to either loose money or loose the opportunity. I'm a plasterer and for the past 3 years have employed another, it took years to find the right person. At times I've earned great money but when the market contracts first you don't know it's happening second you drop prices to pay the bills. It's a minefield but I'd rather be doing this than anything else.
Nice , I am meeting with a client today and will employ some of techniques you discussed. Thanks guys.
Let us know how it goes
Fantastic series guys. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences.
Absolutely bang on! I’m just a handyman that does small time building work, I strive to accomplish a good standard of work with honest opinions. I work on an estimate system and seems to not fail me..... but I lose alot of work through tire kickers and folk who ‘thought it would cost less’ months have gone by if not years and they never had the work done. One thing I can say is that it wasn’t my pricing. Listing your wills and wont’s Is crucial! Or you get ‘can you just do this while you have your tool bag out’? Great video , love you guys!
Hey guys, good advice there, I have been in business for nearly 30 years now, and doing basement conversions for the past 15 years, (Roger you were going to come up north to see us at some point, Back To Basement)
so a couple of good tips,
1. you might want to estimate the price in front of the client, however, you state the price 10-15% higher, if the client indicates to you that there are interested in a written quotation, you then quote for the right amount, the client already has an expectation of the inflated price, ones they get the written quote 10-15% less, they will have the impression that your price is fair,
2. Try and get a template for your quotes, you can find some on an online search, it looks more professional to the client,
3. and old trick I use when quoting is when itemizing my quotes I add some pennies to the price, rather than stating round price,
ie £359.81 £572.29 it looks as if you have calculated every single factor that made the quote, works for me well :)
I hope this helps,
Hello Rubi
Good to hear from you after all this time. I am still intending to come and see you. Good tips on pricing. We will return to this subject for sure.
These videos are so good, thanks guys. I would work for you for the experience! I'm just getting more into pricing things and it's not easy.
Great video. Please do more like this. It’s funny how many builders don’t like talking about pricing as they’re worried about giving too much away but it’s so important
Great pod cast thanks guys never stop learning never
Great video, I work for someone (plan to gain as much experience as I can and then do my own thing) but I do little jobs at the weekend where possible, I try to workout what price the customer would get the materials for vs what price I would get them for, I’ll always charge out the higher price and make a little profit on the materials, why shouldn’t we?? We’re the ones having to organise and collect them
What gets me is everyone expects free quotes could spend every day quoting jobs you dont get when i go to look at a kitchen its not to see what they have for me to fit its always to go through everything they want and design it with them then go and get drawings price materials price labour then plumbers and sparks prices. Then give the price and in a blink of an eye too expensive no haggling just a straight no as if they were only interested in seeing what it costs without actually wanting it. Theres a day and a half gone because i dont do rough estimates on kitchens better of charging for consultation, drawing and exact quote if they dont want to pay that then your prob 80% sure your not getting that job. P.s i do rough estimates on certain jobs but i wouldnt say 2000 i give 2 numbers allowing for unforeseeable things so between 2000 and 3000 and if they say 3000 is to much you just say its rough and i can guarantee if you say 2000 and its wrong youll more than likely be footing 30-40 % of the extras yourself
Listen and learn, excellent advice.
Is it me or does a face appear next to Robin's head at 25:33 ? Great video by the way lots of good points made.
I saw it
Weird. Its looks like a face on the wall
Same here.
It's a monkey, possibly a type of Macac. No idea why it came up though
Wow. Wtf is that.
This is a great video, your advice about turning down jobs is spot on. Its taken me years to get confident at doing this.
I like an easy life so now basicly work day rate for about six regular clients. i make a decent living, but not a great profit. The advantage is i know my clients so get paid reliability and dont have to spend time priceing new work constantly.
I like to think im good at what i do but as a business owner im not very motivated.
Great advice talking from experience!
Take heed all you starters out and punters listening in ✅
I enjoyed listening to the trials and tribulations of the tradesmen. Personally, and as a customer, I find where they fail is when it comes to job specifics. Please don't just throw out a price without sharing with your customer how the job is going to be done first. Secondly, supply a detailed quote for quantities of the materials you are going to use for the project + cost of labour. As your interviewee stated: "sell your vision" to the customer. Give them an appreciation of what the job entails. Maybe then, you won't have too much trouble getting the job? Nobody wants to hire someone who is vague on details and only knows how much he wants to be paid for the job. Both sides need to put themselves in the other's shoes and have an honest dialogue. The devil is in the detail.
I have been in business for 35 years and there is so much truth in what you both say and I have made all those mistakes some of which had huge implications in mine and my family’s home life ! a learning experience but better if I’d had at least some insight ,what frustrates me is why do the construction colleges not teach basic business and money skills ? I know lots of people who finished their apprenticeship and were made to be “self employed “ on the old 714 system now cis with absolutely no idea of the implications .
This is a really worthwhile video
Price condition ...... means roughly guessing the price your head and then adding 30%.
So when they get your quote its alot cheaper if you have guessed it right.
This is great content. Thanks for the tips.
As a self employed preservation technician, there's some great nuggets presented in your conversation that helps me push harder and keep on top of the business side of the job. Would love to hear about some recommendations for book keeping/accounts for us 'sole traders'...keep up the good work fellas
I run a business where I make stuff, totally unrelated but pricing your time and costing materials just the same, I spent two years making no money because I didn't want to over charge. Now I turn people away if they want something below the profit margin I stick to, my gross margin is 80% which seems outrageous to some but when it shakes down I net 50% and make a reasonable living. If you don't value your time nobody else will.
Sometimes (rarely these days but just now and again,) I price a job and get asked "will you do it for £xxxx (less than the quote, ) or "So and so says he'll do it for £xxxx - can you match it?" Just say NO. Nothing more, no explanations, just one word.
Really appreciated that last tip for asking for payment weekly on big long standing projects… nice one!
Always remember, any fool can work for nothing. Robin is quite right, always be courteous and prompt and answer the phone, even when you know it’s the customer from hell!
That is the theory but just try calling him
The trick is like Robin said, weeding out the clients from hell!
Personally what worked for me was telling the client I was busy for xyz months. If they are willing to wait, they are always good clients. No good ever comes from taking a job where they want you to start next week...
However it's not always safe or practical to answer the phone. Have a decent voicemail message. And it wasn't that long a go we didn't have mobile phones, what did people do then, left a message on your landline ;)
Price conditioning is the most important aspect of selling. In order for price conditioning to work it must be a good bit higher than the price it will end up. Thats why its called price conditioning. I will obviously need to price it but we did one last month and that was around......then when its less they have won a watch. Wife goes into a shop and says darling do you like this dress. How much is it dear? Its 230! Holy crap! Then she shows you the label and its 55! She's getting the dress! Not really a 50,000 extension but you get the idea. The principle is the same. There will always be someone cheaper. You have to find your unique selling point. Ask your happy customers to put something on paper and build a folio. Ask for referrals. Its hard when you first start out. When you start to get a good reputation. It gets easier.
How long were Robins negotiations for buying a round, great vid.
He was driving so we left him out
I can only manage 2 pints! I would have been speaking
Rubbish!!
Great bit of advice for the newbbies to the trade and established business`s i`v been in business for 34 yrs l advertised for the first 12 months and have not advertised since, all my work comes by recommendation, l always have my van sign written so people know who you are and as a master crafts man l show this as well on the van, some years back l had customers waiting 12 month before l could get to them for specialised work and the only way l could price these jobs was by estimating, a quote would not work. any large jobs l had stage payments and like you said this can make you short on money l must say l had a good working relationship with many of my customers of which over the years we have grown older together and most l don`t even have to give an estimate, also have worked around the med and thats an eye opener not the work but the people you do the work for when it comes to price they want tradesman quality at diy prices and these are brits there really tight, any body can be a busy fool but not this lad, price the jobs right but dont be greedy, these people could use you for years, you have got to make a living and profit thats the way of self employment. l dont give estimates for insurance work any more there just a waste of my time as most insurance company`s have there own contractors who do the work but the customer has to get three estimates ? thanks again Roger & Robin for another great video keep them coming.
I used to price but couldn’t be bothered with the hassle. When you price, there’s probably someone else who’s gonna outprice you and you know that the guy who’s outpriced you is gonna add extra’s.... he’s probably a good salesman, especially on the bigger jobs. I do all my work on day rate, turn up, do a days work, go home and all my work is from recommendation. It’s so easy. I’ll admit though, pricing will make you more money, but big bucks ain’t everything. I’m a general builder, so pricing is difficult. I can pay the bills and the stress is minimal. Each to their own.
A estimate is a rough calculation of the cost you give the customer a quote is the price that the contracter must stick to & do the job for but remember don't get the quote wrong you can't changed it & don't short yourself 👍🏠☘️
This is a second watch for me, I was looking at how the relationship between you guys seems to evolve. You are both obviously experienced but seem to look at the industry from slightly different angles. At the time of writing Robin has now set up his own channel and its very successful, Roger has continued with his channel and has also continued to be successful. I watch both! 😁 😁 but, I feel something is sadly lacking in both channels now. I miss Roger's humorous interactions opposed to Robin's focused drive.
Idea for a pod cast. How to be a good customer?
This video is absolute gold for someone like me who is employed but wants to take the step to go on their own. Fills me with more confidence! Nice one!!
We just had a kitchen refit, new flooring and new electrical work done. The bloke we went with gave us an estimated cost for completion, but the estimation was 10% above what he said it would probably cost. To account for any issues during the refit he wanted to make sure we had a price from the beginning that wouldn't go up.
We paid 50% of the price up front and the rest on full completion. Each stage the builder walked us through what was going on, provided us with receipts for purchased building materials etc, showed us examples of the "extra" work that the 10% estimate was to cover.
By the end we paid less than the full estimate, only about 4% of the "extra" was needed for labour/materials etc.
Not sure if this is a good way to work, maybe a little convoluted but for us it worked out. We had a top end price we knew wouldn't balloon out of control and in the end we paid less than the full quote and I feel we got good value because the builder took the time to explain what was happening along the way
Me Again, Just to pick up on a point about the client, I have been to see potential jobs which may be logistically challenging and when you sat down trying to explain the work involved to the client they have the television going full blast one of them then leaves the room and gets involved in some thing else, I'm afraid then I generally think to myself this job is going to be a nightmare so quite often I will walk away from it.
Top videos lads. My input is specialise in something, find your niche and read up on it, continually strive to know more about it and be the best in that field. Eat sleep and drink it. Learn to communicate with your customer. You are correct Roger, learn to walk away from a customer when your gut tells you it's not right. Go and learn how to estimate, maybe its a BTEC diploma etc on an evening course. Keep your jobs written up on the pc and your prices and materials along with time taken. Next time you have a similar job you can look back to a similar job. From this you can calculate your linear or square metre rates. Join an industry body like Master Builders etc. and they can help with legals, contracts, health and safety etc. Get all variations from the original work signed off by the customer before doing them, otherwise don't do them, a college lecturer used to say there were better ways to go broke than not getting paid for work you have done like sitting on the beach. Cheers 👍