Podcast #4 ~ Getting Paid & Bad Debts
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- Опубліковано 21 бер 2019
- Robin is back with Roger to discuss the all-important issue of getting paid and taking every measure in avoiding bad debts so you'll escape being knocked by cowboy customers.
#SBpodcast #GettingPaid #advice
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I've spent 40 years in building, predomenantly in domestics and have been knocked twice. Trust cuts both ways and I knew within 10mins of meeting a customer whether I wanted to work for them or not. Example: If a potential customer tells you "I've had 3 builders in and had nothing but trouble", you don't want to be the 4th. I've always followed my gut instinct and still do.
Thats my no one rule for me as well.
I learnt that the hard way.
My old college mate took on a big skirting/arcatrave job which included changing door hinges to parliament hinges.
He asked if I could do for him.
I agreed as I was just getting started and willing to do anything.
He'd measured up and arranged all materials.
When I arrived I noticed that it had been partly done. I thought, maybe they'd pissed off a previous tradesman.
I didn't say anything, I just cracked on.
Customers hung over my shoulder all day.
I was proud of the job I did
Especially replacing the hinges....
I even joked with the customer, who was watching, "look at that, can't get better than perfection"..
He laughed and agreed.
When I left they decided I'd damaged all the doors and refused to pay my mate for my service.
My mate was good enough to take it on the chin and pay me .
But since we've been super weary of taking on jobs like that.
Fair enough there are some cowboys out there who cut and run with the money.
But I reckon there's more scheming cowboy customers.
50 years here. And the worst, by far, time for me was the early 80's recession. I was asked to give a price for fitting a new door. I worked the price out on the spot (but carefully,) and after supplying the door and ironmongery, I would have made just under £30, which even at that time was poor, but I was short of work just like everyone else at that terrible time. The guy said "Oh, OK..." and took a piece of paper from behind the clock on the fireplace. On that piece of paper he had at least ten joiners' names, some of which I knew, with their price on. He wrote my price next to my name and promised to call me later. I'd already decided before I got back home, not to take the job. At quarter to TWELVE that evening, he phoned me. According to him, he wanted me to do the job - but there was just one guy who was a bit cheaper. Would I drop my price? Unbelievable. Thankfully, that type are few and far between.
I’ve been 43 years in the trade I couldn’t put it better
You got my thoughts exactly I’ve been 42 years in the trade and never been knocked through the same policy a you your spot on
Outstanding. And well done for having the balls to address the cultural issues. This channel has improved 10 fold in the last few months. *applause*
Is that since we signed Robin up?
@@SkillBuilder Not specifically, although Robin is clearly a valuable addition to the team. As a tradesperson I'm more interested in watching podcasts about business experience and long format videos/series on installs (like the excellent bathroom series) than watching tool reviews for brands I won't buy because I'm already tied into another 18v battery set. I also like the fact that the channel seems to be selling it's own brand these days, with the subtle support of a few sponsors, rather than appearing to be a marketing front for various different manufacturers. Whoever is editing / producing videos is also doing a good job!
@@juancornetto8243 Dylan is doing the editing he been in the videos, I agree the podcasts are superb Rogers telling about jobs and how he dealt with people is funny, keep up the good work lads all the best with future jobs and payments 👆👌💪
Roger!! Make the roof olympics happen 🤣
Cultural issues you say , he said 'we in UK agree the price that does not change and that is it ' what is bulshit because I ve seen lot of native UK ppl with wrong calculations that in the middle of project start crying and asking for more money because of some reason. So if it can goes in one direction why not opposite?
Anyone starting up self-employed or even some experienced ones, should watch this. It's a must, simple as that. Good job guys.
I made and fitted some alcove units for a foreign couple in London , the whole time I was fitting them the wife was in the kitchen cooking , well I finished the job and they where chuffed to bits I hoover up and was ready to get paid and leave , I didn’t realise the whole time the wife was cooking a meal so we could all sit down and have dinner together at the end of the day 🤷🏻♂️ I’ve never known anything like it they where such a lovely couple that worked in mental health and we ended up having a really deep chat about the topic I didn’t leave till about 9pm , lovely people , lovely culture , lovely clients/friends
Wow, I was waiting for a sting in the tail on that one! Great result.
I'd a same experience doing plumbing for an indian couple here in Dublin , it was a lovely experience 😊
I fitted some alcove cupboards for a couple in London and he wouldn’t pay me as “ I didn’t ask you to do that my wife doesn’t have the authority to get builders in “ 😢🤦♂️
@@paulbackhard6315 I always go to the woman cause shes usually wears the trousers 😆
I know an interior designer though, who was ripped off by a curry house chain, when they claimed he'd been paid in 'free' curries . . .
Worked for a guy in London subcontracting on a school doing the electrics. Tried to knock me, even though he just bought a Mercedes in cash. Stopped taking my calls and his wife told me he had gone abroad, which was bollocks. Ended up turning up at his wife's place of employment (high flying lawyer), asking if I could get her husbands new number. A grunt like me walking around the law firms reception must have made an impression. Got paid within the hour. Funny that.
Im not a tradesman so dont know why i watched this but i watch all your videos from a DIYer’s POV. I did relate to this tho as I was effected by the liquidated ltd company con as a customer. I was left 20k in the red and homeless for 4 months, it wasn’t the thought of not been sitting on a deck chair that ate me up but rather I had let my newborn down and what I could of spent that 20k to better his future/life, it broke my heart, a grown man holding his baby and telling him sorry I’ve let you down with a tear in my eye. I understand why they made it so directors dont have to fear of losing their homes etc but what its allowed some of them to do others legally is not right. Glad I watched this as I never really considered that traders are treated just as badly. Keep the good work up fellas!!
I feel like I’m sat in a pub aving a pint with a few mates watching you two.
Great talks guys, thanks!!
But without the black eye
Too much wisdom here. Roger is a national treasure.( posting from the US).
Very very true , you give a customer a price and you say it might take 3 days and you work you ass off and do it in 1 ! Then they say you have earned too much for that day ...but what would happen if it took 4 , you wouldn't ask for more !!!
Quotes are tough sometimes. I try to not finish too soon if things go unexpectedly well, because clients can feel you overquoted. I charge by the hour and my current tactic is to deliberately underquote the time on some big jobs but tell them it's capped regardless of any overs I have to do. I do lose a little money that way but have gained many, many customers by recommendation.
I've just had earthmoving and concreting done and paid the guys the next day. As soon as the jobs done - PAID! I feel for you here - this sucks.
Since I saw Robin working on them old extension videos it's great to see him on the channel more often. Damn skilled carpenter.
Hello Chap's up there, am a small tradesmen Kosovan born and now proud British citizen living in UK for 20 years am sharing my experience and trying not to be rude am just telling the truth and my experience here in UK I came 16 years old like a child and worked in London almost every where, I never ever have had a bad experience with an English man even sometimes I got a tip on top of my wages, foreigners they are ones always complaining about the money on the end ,thanks for sharing this with us I appreciate your time and effort
This is more valuable than gold for a few of us out here. These are going to be classic videos and its a great public service you are doing. Cheers and best wishes for you guys
Thanks Joshua. We just need people to share them among their fellow trades and self-employed.
Did a furnishing job many years ago as subcontractor. The client went bust and the receiver was trying to sell the place. They asked us to go on site and do a little bit of snagging. I arrived and when no one was watching I hid the furniture above the suspended ceilings then left. One hour later the receiver was on the phone going ballistic. They couldn’t work out how we got the furniture past security. In the end the receiver paid us for the goods. A rare triumph.
Really enjoyed your video,thank you. After 46 years in the building game I can relate to every thing you discussed
And me carnt believe we do it 😀
Great advice thanks. I'm a self employed mechanic & I expect payment before the car gets driven away. This isn't always the case so I often take the security wheel nut tool from the car & hold on to it until they return with payment. Then I just produce it & say "by the way I almost forgot I left this on the bench".Then if they don't pay I can sell it back to them when they are on the side of the road with a puncture if I can be bothered to answer the phone ;)
Great chat guy's. Yeah i had one i remember when i started out self employed 18 years ago. I was fitting a kitchen for the parents of this couple. I had written everything up from start to finish including the number of rows of wall tiles and where they would finish and at the end of the job met them at the property and was praised and thanked for the good job. The daughter said she would drop the payment off. Two weeks later no payment. So i contacted and she said she wanted extra tiling at no extra cost. This went on for a couple of days and in the end i did those for free but wanted the payment before i carried out anymore work. It was an i opener early on in business.
I loved listening to this, and found myself nodding as you were talking about getting knocked, people re negotiating after the job had been done, and the differences culturally.
I’m a musician, not trade, and yet so many of the same things happen across both industries (all industries probably). Knowing your worth as Robin mentioned is vital.
Gigging in the U.K. can be abit of a hard slog, with some audiences being more receptive than other, and Robins story about sitting down at the dinner table with the family even though he had said he wasn’t going to do the job, reminded me of being in Europe where a whole community had clubbed together and paid for British bands to go over and perform for them. Then after they would all invite you back and have dinner and drinks - amazing experience and such an eye opener to how they appreciate musicians compared to the U.K..
I once had a student who came to me (knowing my fee for the lesson) and then afterwards told me he was going to pay me £20 less because “the guy down the road is cheaper” 🤣
I’m really loving these videos!
What great videos lads ,so helpful. I had an experience a few yrs ago where the guy I was working for , not the client but the company had kept back 2 invoices totalling about £ 5k . Was running into 4or 5 months he was on stop at builders merchants too. I agreed to finish job and even got materials on my account . He promised I would then get paid . How wrong was I . Terrible time was at Christmas for myself and family and my father in law was dying , which the guy knew of and shortly after my father in law died . The bastard still didn't pay .
Anyway my wife done an online summons application and we put it to local court house . ( small fee to pay but this was payed back ) He was to receive summons by recorded delivery . Let's just say he was a bit upset when he received it . Got payed within two weeks and he avoided going to court . On some respects not great at time but a valuable lesson learned .
Great video I’ve been knocked a few times now I always ask for all materials money before starting a job and always weekly payment.if the client can’t pay materials up front I walk away it’s a bad sign.
this was golden could have listened for hours ......if all the small builders got together under one brand they could put money in a pot to have expert legal advice etc . something like a builders co-operative company ...if we stick together and help each-other instead of racing to the bottom all the better
Interesting idea. Particularly to help those just starting out by giving them legal resources to chase payment. We did have UCATT which has now merged with Unite union. Not sure what they can do for sole traders but they have helped sub contractors get their dues on large projects previously.
What Robin mentioned around 13:00 lol. Had that last year. Customer i made alcove units and replaced doors and frames for told me everythings pissed so were withholding final payment. See, where I'd gone wrong was building and installing everything square and true. It was the rest of the house that was on the wonk! Something I had made clear before starting btw, showing them with levels etc what to expect and mentioned we could suspend a new ceiling but they didn't want the extra cost nor lose the "character". They did eventually pay but it's a shame because we were very pleased with what was quite a tricky job, but they were unhappy and payed grudgingly. I never set out to leave a customer feeling like that. A real downer.
I find that some customers are absolutely clueless and have unrealistic expectations, even after you have explained the details to them, such as the wonky walls. I just don't think that some customers take in what you say when you do the survey and are just focused on how the finished product will look. If reality doesn't meet expectations then they end up being disappointed so I think roger and robins ideas of detailing everything in writing is a good idea. I do have a confession to make - I never give a detailed estimate highlighting the wonky walls etc, and so far, touch wood we've never had a problem with customers. Now that I've said that ...……...
Cracking discussion. Real eye opener for those, like me, who aren't self employed and just take it for granted that the money goes in the bank at the end of the month.
Gents: I'm not a tradesman, but this series is pure gold for anyone contemplating running their own business. Please keep going.
I once had a customer try to stiff me for 15% of landscaping job, because her friend said thats how much it should have cost.
She agreed quote and signed contract. But once work finished she wanted to discuss price.
She sent cheque for job less 15% even thou we agreed cash.
So once money cleared in my account, I went back and removed block paving sand and gravel as not paid for.
She tried the court crap, until her solicitor read contract and pricing list.
So I now ask 50% up front for materials and labour. Not been stiffed since.
Great video lads.
I started first up giving 15 days on invoices but now it’s just payment on receipt. It seems to be better.
Yes, when I first went self employed this was hard for me to do but tried to stick to payment on completion. Some clients did try the 'can I post you a cheque' and I'd say 95% of those actually arrived. The rest I wrote off.
Another excellent podcast! Please keep them coming. The industry needs this.
About 15 years ago I re-built the back wall of a house for a customer, everything went as it should and he was happy with the brick match, anyway at the end of the job, he didn't want to pay, he said the problem was he had got another builder to come round and look at the work and the other builder had told him I'd built the wall and the brick work was ok but I'd built it without putting wall ties in or any DPC. He wasn't for telling me who the other builder was apart from a guy his mate knew and he couldn't remember his name, I pushed him on it explaining that I wanted to get to know this guy because for him to be able to see the wall ties and damp, other than knocking bricks out he must have X-ray vision. He soon paid up without any more fuss.
They make me so angry. A friend of a friend, I can't remember his name says this and that. What crap. It is an insult to your intelligence. I am glad you go paid.
Mr. Clevett & Roger, you are legends, thank you for your frank conversation and inside knowledge. Being doing this for 20 years and finally a back to our trades! Pete
It is a culture thing, I worked 17 years in London with constant payment issues and vat avoidance. Then I worked the next 17 years in Dublin Ireland and got a completely different experience. With the exception of some builders the people here have more respect for tradespeople. It might be a class thing also in some cases
Roger, you're a legend for bringing it up so carefully. Haggle first, agree and then pay!
As a customer, I really enjoyed this podcast.
I am now hooked on watching the whole series.
Decades ago, if my job was several weeks' work and involved a lot of costly materials, I would offer stage payments, immediately agreeing a price.
I always paid in cash.
These days, it's bank transfers as they are leaving.
I trust the workman to come and sort out any problems that appear afterwards. I struggle to remember a job that did require rectification.
Gentlemen, thank you for the advice, knowledge and expertise!! It’s well appreciated.
Someone once gave me cheque for £2k which bounced... A pal in the banking system told me to represent the bounced cheque at payees bank. (where the account is actually registered) At the end of that working day if there's sufficient funds (money) in the account the Bank are beholden to settle the debt... It worked a treat for me... The payees went ballistic when they found out. Just thought this might help someone.
These podcasts truly are great! Well done fellas ;)
This is an excellent series, there's a lot to listen to. This sort of info should be taught in colleges - how to protect yourself and be professional. I started by myself last year and when you guys started episode 1 on pricing I thought "great, this is what I've been looking for". I don't have "cash" flow as some jobs fell through over Christmas so I've had no choice but to specify that all materials are payable upon receipt. I have been doing stage payments though for my labour and subcontractors if I have them.
From now on I will be stating that I want weekly payments. I think that is a great idea Robin to not charge the % on subbies but charge a management fee as part of the your contract, and being clear about what you charge. If someone is not willing to pay you for your service then they can manage it themselves. It's not easy to get the whole job to "flow".
Another great video and as a very small time freelance architect very interesting to hear from your side. Having the cost of materials 'at risk' so to speak must be quite worrying. Recently had to chase an invoice with 30 day payment terms over 2 months overdue the payment due date (only for 350 quid) for the first time ever and it was really stressful for me. I persevered and was paid in the end. Felt like a real insult when the work was prompt and completed to the word of the fee proposal- I had also spent many extra hours on the project accommodating changes. Generally have really delightful clients but this was a developer who was really trying his luck. After copying in the directors listed on companies house to requests for payment I finally got a call back. Hope I don't have to do it again but definitely learnt something. Love your videos so much and always recommending you to colleagues- huge fan!
That is interesting to hear that it is not just builders who suffer this. I suppose the answer is to get the money before you submit the final drawing but maybe the developer has serious cash flow problems.
Perfect advise! I list my estimates out with a %deposit , payment plan. If my potential customer queries my deposit then I explain it’s for part materials and not for the full amount (so we are both invested in the project) it reassures them(imho that you aren’t a cowboy). I also use paypal for my invoices and card reader. This channel is fantastic, loads of great content and bang on the money.👍
I'm an actor and photographer chaps - it's the same for us!
Loving the channel and your podcasts - very helpful for my first house renovation!
Great video. Regarding the point at 24:40 about rejecting a partial payment is correct. An offer from the customer is not binding unless you accept it. If you do accept the partial sum, you can protect your position by writing to the customer outlining your intention to keep the money as part payment and will continue to claim the full amount owed. This covers you. If you had no agreement in writing (e.g small domestic building work) it could be argued in court that there was acceptance in your actions in agreeing to the part payment and that the customer is making best efforts to settle. Problem is you may not be able to seek the full and final amount. Another thing you could do to protect yourself is a no waiver clause, which basically means you can accept part “performance” (payment) without losing your other rights. All depends on how formal you want to be with the customer but could practice to have a template of terms for them to sign.
Thank you so much for clarifying this point, it is extremely helpful to me and our loyal veiwers, really helpful statement, many thanks again!
Well done guys, after being in business for nearly 30 years I can relate to all your examples, I even once had a guy that we bent over backwards for and he was still complaining until I asked what his problem was and he simply said he liked to argue!
I think the key is managing expectations & having a credit card machine that works via a mobile phone😉
There is a fundamental lack of trust between trade and the public, and there are villains on both sides. My suggestion would be an escrow arrangement binding to both parties, so if the job is done you get paid, and if the trade walks off the customer is not out of pocket. It would need oversight, but once it was established it could take the worry out of getting paid.
My tip for anyone, especially newbies is be very careful with new clients. If the job involves more than a few quid in materials - get money up front for all the materials, then make sure to get interim payments as you go along. With new clients - NEVER allow more than a week's credit.
I know you mentioned ethnics haggling but happens with natives too. Had a client agree a price many years ago, then, as the job progressed started haggling; this in full knowledge that I had time invested and couldn't just walk away. Turned out she'd been bankrupt before. Luckily I got paid what I agreed but, to me, it was a 'near miss'!!!
Another one, mentioned by others is avoiding the "I've been messed around/had bad tradesmen/been ripped off before" client. If you take on such a client you are almost certain to bring yourself grief and will be the next "rogue tradesman" they're slagging off even though you did a good job at a fair price.
Generally, if it's new customer, try to work for clients who recommend you, or who know people you already work for. I never advertise, it's all 'word of mouth'.
The only client who tried it on in recent years was someone who said she was a close friend of another client. Turned out she'd just moved to the area and had got my number from someone at her kid's school. Lied and lied throughout the job, even when lying wasn't even necessary - made out she was moving into the property in two weeks even though they were paid up in a rented house for another two months, all to get us working evenings and weekends, when it wasn't needed. Added work on to the job which she thought was free. Should have spotted the first lie by checking her out with her "friend". Did get sorted though.
Remember this ratio - 95% of your hassle comes from 5% of your clients. So avoid the ones who give you any whiff of trouble. There's loads of work around, so why give yourself the grief?
Very interesting. It is my understanding that both the builder and the customer have a statutory right to have a building dispute to be resolved by adjudication. This stems from the days of Mrs Thatcher when small building contractors could not get paid. The result is that the law requires the bill to be paid first and then the customer has to sue to recover any loss resulting from bad worksmanship. I have seen a good customer put in a terrible position by a rouge builder. Drains that flowed up hill, electrics that were dangerous and not certified and by law the customer had to pay for the whole job and did not have the money to recover their losses by suing the builder. The building company had legal expenses insurance and an expensive law firm. A big education to me and a big shock.
I try my best to order all materials that I need for the job. Then give the list to the client and tell them to pay the Marchant direct. Works quite well for me that way
Your not able to make your cut on materials this way, add abit on your materials , as you’ve had to run around to get them ,
I worked on renovating 3 bathrooms for the Cairns family who lived in a house in Fairmile head Edinburgh.
Right from the start we had problems with my quote , for instance, I quoted 3 weeks to completely strip and rebuild with Ceramic tiles . They went and bought porcelain tiles and expected it to be done in the same timeframe for the same price .
The son and daughter went and used the payment card 4 times at the local cashline to take £2000 , and said it was me .
They asked for extra work , IE extend one of the en-suite bathrooms through the wall into the built in wardrobes of the adjacent bedroom to increase the shower enclosure by 50% and wouldn't pay for that either .
So at the end of the job I was robbed of 2grand by theft done by their children.
And an extra week's work .
And they had the cheek to ask for money off due to the stress of it taking the extra week .
So , beware when you have to deal with any family bearing that surname .
I will reveal their full names and current address in private to anyone who has legitimate concerns privately.
Great watch this! This is the reason why I haven’t really started my own business and just stuck with a salaried job and do the odd bit here and there. Great advice this though! More vids to watch!
Great work lads - really enjoying your videos . I work on my own most of the time , so its good to hear other people talking and thinking how I think .
One thing I did years ago with a bad payer was go to the neighbours house and ask them if their next door neighbour was on holiday ( knowing full well they weren't ) . They said " no , I don't think so , why ? " , and I told them I was waiting to be paid for a job , but couldn't get any reply from them ... The payment arrived a couple of days later ! -
no one wants their neighbours knowing you owe people money do they ? . It's a handy trick to have in the toolbox int it ? . Looking forward to more stories .
That is a really good tip. Tell the neighbours and they tell the whole street.
I've seen hundreds of videos on UA-cam, this has got to be the best I've ever seen,brilliant stuff,
16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.
this is the best converstion i have seen on youtube. if i was any good with wrighting contrackets i wood not be a joiner of 32 years
Absolute legends. Keep the podcasts coming
Roger and Robin, I enjoy all your shows including tool reviews. Everything you have discussed sounds all too familiar. You guys have the same mindset I do which is, "it's easier to do it right the first time". Keep up the great work and never compromise quality over quantity.
Very good podcast enjoy it. I did work for a small building company as a driver labourer using my own car and was not for the mileage money only used to go round and do repairs pubs many years ago 👍👍👍👍
Thanks guys I really enjoyed your sharing of experience on a subject that can effect all of us.
Working together instead of competing.
I don't see working together as half the renumeration I view as twice the resources.
16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.
Such an entertaining and informative video, as always. Better than watching the telly.
Loved the chat guys , sometimes were treated like scum of the earth because were dressed like a builder , one thing I’ve learnt is no matter how nice the client is you always see a completely different side of people when it comes to money , always be on the ball regarding money , always make the client aware of surprises on the job ie bad existing work you need to work with , always be open and honest if you need to nip of to earn extra cash tell the client , honesty honesty honesty you can’t go wrong if your honest and upfront with people
That was a fantastic show guys. I look forward to the next one.
Thats what i love about this channel. Speak how it is and covering the subjects people wana hear about.
Keep up the good work.
absolutely love your deck chair line roger thats amazing :D
In 40 odd years in the building trade, to be fair, I’ve not had too many issues. Probably because I proudly had a reputation as a great tradesman, I still do now although slower. More importantly though, I also had a reputation as somebody not to upset, and certainly never to mess around with payments with.
So, it worked well, they all got a great job done, and I got paid. That’s how it should be, the building game is hard enough, without time wasters and pee takers.
I'm a customer rather than trade.
Interesting insight and not the first time I've heard a solicitor screw a tradesman in this way. Great channel.
Fantastic thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Hello guys, just thought after months of watching I owed you a comment. I'm just a regular member of the public. I bought my first property 2 years ago (188 terraced house) I would absolutely never ever dream about asking a tradesman to come out to my house and quote for a job and then never having the ability to pay them.
Great video guys!!! Lets face it.. we've all had our fair share off problems with customers... One thing i'd like to say is.."ALWAYS communicate via email -After the initial phone in person chat.. Record everything via the mobile phone recording device if the project is huge and you need to relay the info back onto paper/email . I have found that 99% clients customers love "Tradesmans Professionalism", they respect you more if everything is detailed and bullet pointed on a basic/detailed works contract.. After all, it will help you in the long run and save you any trouble if it arises..
Plus,... take photos off the work at every point and stage off the works and put it into specific folders on a computer database /folder.. If you're a sole trader or a company get it right, first time !
Great advice guys, I 100% agree on payment for materials before starting the job, a bit of piece of mind
I loved the stories about being fed and treated welcome by customers!
I was a joiner in Hungray, working for private clients, and I had similar experiences.
There was a family I used to do several projects during a 10 year period, so I became a sort of friends with them. When my car broke down, they offered me the wife's car who was a bank director. So I had to go into the bank, to the director to get the keys, then transport the material and drive back the car to the fancy bank garage. Other times their daughter had homework for school, and they asked me to brief her on the subject, knowing I had insite. Other times when I was working at their home, the wife called the children to eat, as usual, and I was added to the list. Other time they were out for some days, so I was allowed to live in the house while doing their job.
There was another customer, a Jewish couple with a boy. I only seen them twice, yet while I was working at their home the mother wanted to leave for hours, so she asked me to babysit their boy for the time! The funny outcome was when the parents came home, that their Jewish boy announced, he wants to be a joiner!
It is amazing how many people you meet who are very happy to dump their kids on you. I am not sure I would be that happy with it now but I operated in an age where Jimmy Saville was seen as trustworthy, a friend of Margaret Thatcher. What could possibly go wrong?
Absolutely love this discussion. This is a great channel. Keep it up guys.
A great conversation, lots of serious points that i can relate to, some humour thrown in as well. I love the debt collector bit. Good one guys
I bloody love you guys. Thank you for your cracking content.
Another good podcast really enjoying them keep up the good work
A “friend” is a plumber, he did a job for someone an not paid, eventually he went back after being mucked around for months, turned the stopcock off an filled the cavity with concrete!
Good work boys. Nice to hear your ideas and experiences. I can relate to some, others I can take on board and learn from your experience.
So pleased you brought up the 'culture' problem. Most people are frightened to death to speak up about it, but it's true, you can come 'really' unstuck unless you 'do' get a contract signed at the start with a 'No Haggle' clause CLEARLY stated. One of the favourite things they do is counting the hours and minutes you've 'physically worked' on the job. They then calculate it up at a rate that 'they' think you should be working for, and will ONLY pay that amount. It's then time to remind them you're more than willing to 'lose' another Grand to employ 'other' services which will visit them when they 'least expect it' and extract the money in due course ...... It almost always works, especially with the #CowboyCustomer :-)
Brilliant, just brilliant!
Roger & Robin , to you both THANK YOU , great stuff , I have about all that sh t , here in the colonies , Cheers .
Don't be bothered by the terminally offended. Everything you have said is perfectly accurate. Great video.
The agreed price is what it is !. As a Chippie, if I can complete the job quicker, good on me, I don't charge any extra if the job blows out.
There is also the issue of tools that may break or specialised tools you need to purchase, that all adds to the cost of the job. There are so many variables that only you are aware of & that the customer isn't, this is a part of Contracting. I love watching & listening to your experiences.
Still owed thousands off a job after been signed off by the engineer and snag list done , we even paid for their granite work top because they had no money to get it , so we paid , now it's waiting for bank and all usual crap , it's very frustrating and can be depressing
Watch many of your videos and learned a lot from them. Well done lads.
@24:48 Robin was referencing the concept of 'credibility' here. It goes like this: Client A has hired Contractor B.
Client A is behind on payment, and owes £50,000 to Contractor B.
He says to Contractor B, "Look mate, I can front you £25,000 right now, and will try to pay the rest later this week."
Contractor B takes this money, banks it, and has a new faith in Client A, as they seem to 'pay debts'. However, what Client B is doing, is building credibility with Contractor B. The client is making it seem that he pays debt on-time, by making a partial payment.
This is where the 'credibility' fun starts. A week goes by, and Client A requests for Contractor B to undertake £100,000 worth of work, to which Contractor B agrees to, as Client A has built credibility with him.
Once Contractor B completes the £100,000 works, Client B does not pay him for it! This now leaves Contractor B £125,000 down in pocket, +£75,000 more in debt than he began with!
Be careful out there! This is a concept prevalent in economics.
You are so right, it is a snare laid by many people. We say "If the first payment is fast you will never get the last".
@@SkillBuilder 🤣🤣 good one!
What a Ripper video!!!
Well done Robin & Rodger great subject to address!!!
The contrast between the US market & yours is indistinguishable... And it instills me with so much joy to know you suffer the same ales! Luv this channel so much!!!!
Thanks Phil
We woud love to have more American viewers.
I have to say it feels to us as if you will soon be fighting another civil war. Let's hope it all calms down over there. There is so much to lose.
@@SkillBuilder Well I tell anyone who will listen, that I think would get a kick out of it, to check you guys out! But yes. Times are tough around here with no real leadership & a generation of Nitwits running a muck every day is a new challenge. But you know us Americans. We have no problem cutting off our nose despite our face at the drop of a hat! On a serious note, Civil War is a real threat & I'm deeply worried for my kids. Pray for us!
Great video. Domestic customers should see this side of things for better understanding of how it is for the trades. I'm just helping my builder take a previous customer to the small claims court. Poor guy just wants to do his building work and can't be bothered with all the paperwork. You always hear about the bad builders (who are out there for sure) but it's not all one way. Another builder of mine was well and truly done over when he was young and new to the game. And don't get me started on the 'while your here' jobs that customers think it's okay to get the trades person to do for nothing! Would I get away with it when I go for a haircut, "while I'm here can I just have a full head of highlights for free"... don't think so!
I run domestic resin flooring and microcement company. I only work with clients who are prepared to pay 50% upon booking, 40% on day 3 of works, 10% 7 days after completion. Last year it saved my skin on 2 projects, where the contractors went belly up. Client always receives the terms of business.
This particular subject needs to be called cowboy clients ,an it does happen ,I’ve had many people try it on
An it’s always educated people who think your stupid because your a trades man,an sometimes it rich people who can be very tight ,seen all types,very glad your covering this gents 👍👍👍
16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.
How dyou think they got so rich?
always a pleasure to listen in on you guys thanks
I am not a contractor or carpenter but I find your videos entertaining and informative. I agree with you completely about modern limited companies or corporations. Of course economists, being the absolute geniuses we all know they are, would say that the invention of the limited liability enterprise was a major reason why the world has greatly prospered in the past century and a quarter. ("Prospered" might be a strong word given two world wars, the rise of communism, and multiple pandemics.) In a nutshell they are creations of the 20th century that have been, in my opinion, the cause of so much of the strife and destruction across the world. A limited liability enterprise, when controlled by amoral or immoral psychopathic corporate executives, seems to me to be ideally (intentionally?) designed to cheat and steal without consequence. Sort of like you describe it in your example of what you felt was intentional bankruptcy fraud used against you.
brilliant stuff! keep them coming!!
Your right about second fix , I had forty carpenters and in the end I did shuttering only , start of job , no problem 😉
Immediate thumbs up just for making me laugh so much with your intro! 😄
The contract law is Promissory Estoppel, the general rule being an agreement that a debtor (client) make a part payment of a debt will not satisfy the obligation to repay the entire debt. However, its the cost of enforcement & against a limited company good luck. The knife cuts both ways & there are plenty of unscrupulous builders and trades who say they have done a job to spec (esp with plumbing & electrics) where its in a wall, behind a skirting etc, and want full payment. The customer pays in full only to later find they have paid for a non-compliant job (I have pics of a plumber who held up newly installed uninsulated heating pipes with 'clips' made of folded sandpaper screwed around the pipes)
My two favorite tradesmen on UA-cam always quality vids and info
This happens in the marine industry aswell. Just had the same issue! Rebuilt an engine and then dodging payments over the gearbox which wasn't covered. Now fighting to get paid.
You're 100% RIGHT! on this Bad Debt issue - it's an age-old problem. Several years ago I put a page on my website called 'The Cowboy Customer' which outlined 'exactly' the problems you're talking about here. Also a sister page 'The Cowboy Builder' with tips to recognition of these Pains-in-the-predanticles :-)
Love your inputs and thoughts guys,your spot on .
I run my own building firm and have come across a few that don't want to pay .
If your in the game long enough I think everyone at some point will cross paths with someone that doesn't want to pay .
Long story short it's experience and learning from mistakes with regards to wording and covering yourself regarding payment .
Great vid guys your bang on 👍
Yep. I've found that, on average, every ten years you'll get someone trying it on.
Always new clients.
Reminds you to check out references; if they say they're a friend of "Mrs Jones" ask which one and phone Mrs Jones to thank her for the recommendation. During the conversation, remember to ask how they know Mr and Mrs Bovine-Excrement to see if the friendship is real or fictitious. If the friendship is a lie, then likely everything else they say is too . . .
I work as a photographer retoucher and all of these things apply when freelancing. No matter the business i believe. Great series
Possibly the best advice I’ve heard on the internet
The only true advice on the net too! 😀
The only true advice on the internet too! 😀
Love the stuff you're putting out fellas. Keep it up!
Knowledge and service couldn't agree more!
2nd 😊
Seriously though, another good and interesting video. Cheers fellas
I am a part time Handyman and only have a relatively small number of regular customers. I like to think they value the quality of my work, flexibility, ability to respond quickly. I sense they therefore want to pay me promptly.
I am also lucky that many are happy to pay materials costs up front to help my cash flow.
I appreciate though that self employed full time tradespeople might have more issues with bigger and more expensive jobs.
@@goodcat1982
Not odd at all. The topic is interesting and a good subject to cover. You have jumped to conclusions about what I meant.
I like the hilarious discussion at the end about which number the podcast is.