Great video! The emphasis placed on turtle, front headlock, mat returns, and staying on top is a solid explanation as to why we are seeing so many people with wrestling bases succeed in MMA. Those things all exist in BJJ, but they are much more fundamental in wrestling.
Great analysis. I think it's also worth noting that there are a tonne of positions that aren't really 'traditional' BJJ but that offer fantastic control for pummelling a guy (eg shelving the legs and getting the handcuff/wrist control) that MMA guys would really benefit from learning
Jiu jitsu rules really ought to punish guard pulling. One move that does more than any other to bring jiu jitsu away from a self defense litmus test and into la la land.
My personal opinion is that one simple rule change would massively improve the applicability of BJJ for MMA: a grounded player must stand up, to meet a standing player. This would bring BJJ back in line with every other combat sport! It's cool if people want to pull guard, but they should actually have to pull guard and keep the other person there, not flop to the ground and then rely on a referee directing the standing player to engage. Literally every other sport does it that way.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712guard pulling isnt the problem, its that they always play guard. You arent trying to stand if youre using your legs to attack. So bjj people dont get enough practice holding down people who try to stand up. I didn't learn a basic wrestling ride or half nelson until about 2 years in because i hadn't dealt with opponents who give their back to me willingly. Without wrestling tools i couldn't solve a wrestling problem.
A point penalty for pulling guard, in addition to an advantage for the individual that is NOT playing on their butt, would go a long way. It would mean that even someone that is taken down has a reason to stand back up rather than butt scooting.
This is gonna come off really disrespectful, but I think the stats would be a lot more grim if you removed wmma from the stats. A lot of the clips in the "BJJ for MMA" portion was using a lot of wmma clips as evidence. Yeah I don't think it's gonna work for the men who have less holes in their game. edit - You can break it down even further like if you go for a leglock at flyweight, you have a better chance probably compared to HW because HW's hit harder and probably will KO you but on the other hand hw's probably never train leg lock defense so that might make it easier.
Thanks, I felt that was important because back takes in BJJ have exploded in the modern era, but actually the ones we see working in MMA are very limited, very old school. Not everyone cares that their berimbolo matrix backtake isn't proven in MMA, but this video is for those who do.
This is great. I have been saying many of these things for years. More content like this please, our grappling training and the skills we spend the majority of our time developing should be informed by what can and does happen in a real fight.
@@luchador1764bro i hate it. Training at renzo gracie pretentious ass nyc academy, they love the “you need this belt to do this so come everyday and learn the same things for 2-3 years” mentality 😂. Thats why they have no fighters improving
Early on there were no rounds, every round starts standing so that favors strikers. Also fan heavily favor strikers, so there is a major incentive to strike rather than grapple.
Submition rate declined because new upcoming fighters don't train BJJ because it takes too much time and effort to be good at it. It's much easier to just bang it out. 🤷🏻 Fact. But the one who still is willing to put time and effort, is and will be the king in MMA. Submition work is still the king and it always will be.
Yeah, I’ve heard that argument before and I agree. Having rounds where you start with standing favors striking. Going back to no rounds would make it more beneficial to take someone down and control them. Also, MMA has had significant advances in standing back up after takedowns. Though I think his analysis still holds regardless.
That would probably elevate back control further, since a lot of rounds run out of time there. But i don't think closed guard would fare much better, the standard of defence is too high now.
da copes u get unlimited td attempts with 0 reprecussions vs strikers what if they just allow everyone to knee u in da head in sprawl or stomp u like they did in pride MMA rn is geared towards boring grapplers enough as is
Regarding the statistic on successful takedowns (because I’m thinking about your video on wrestling), I’d like to know how many of those we’re actually takedown reversals.
It’s ok bro, you can say that folkstyle wrestling is useful. 😂😂 The combination of wrestling, BJJ, and judo is awesome. BTW, there’s really not much of a mechanical difference between a headlock and a whizzer. You can post our your hand with a whizzer the same way you can post it out on the headlock. In folkstyle wrestling, the defense to the whizzer kick (uchi mata) or headlock is to use their momentum. It’s about whether the person knows to hip down or not and/or let go to post out. In both cases, the bottom player still has an underhook if the roll through doesn’t work. Very similar mechanics, just that the whizzer arm is around the head instead of around the arm. In many ways, it’s actually easier to get stuck with the whizzer (arm trap) than with the headlock. It’s the execution of the throw, not the actual throw. Rhonda Rousey didn’t rolled through for a reason-her execution of hari goshi was world class.
A lot of the head and arm throws being countered arn't via roll through, Valentina went for one near the end of the fight against Alexa Grasso and it just turned into a back take.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 sure, i liked your clarification, it was a good point and the video did show a roll through. But given the other things that can go wrong with trying to hold a sweaty head / arm, i feel the whizzer is more reliable. I re-watched what Shevchenko did, it could be argued that it wasn't even a head and arm throw, but I don't think she would have ended up having her back taken with a whizzer. But i'd be interested what you think, it's at 6:38 ua-cam.com/video/TlkleW7Mi8k/v-deo.html
@@pcprinciple3774 it honestly depends on the height of the person. I cannot do much with a whizzer uchi mata, because my height hinders me from getting the lift on a lot of people. It wasn’t as big of an issue for me in college wrestling, since I was actually on the taller side of my weight class at only 5’6”. But in judo or bjj, people are taller than me (usually heavier too) and I don’t have the lift, with the whizzer. But if you understand the intricacies how the headlock works, you bait them into pushing and they do the work for you. With a sagging headlock, you don’t have to lift with the inside leg, which is why it’s better for my bodytype. It’s a common misconception that the headlock is primarily the head…it’s the far arm. And if you’re pulling too hard then you didn’t set it up right and deserve to slip. We wear singlets in wrestling and are slippery. But the vast majority of my pins in collegiate wrestling were from sagging headlocks-often with seconds left on the clock when they are dripping wet
Love this analysis! And one thing I'd add is this. In bjj relatively little emphasis is made on (a) staying on *top* when taking the back (i.e. riding) rather than rolling to the bottom, and (b) *flattening the person out* in that position and totally taking away their base--which in fact can make nailing the RNC harder... but is devastating to the bottom person when strikes are added to the mix. (Pictures of the end of Hughes-Gracie from many years ago running through my head. 😏)
woud be interesting too see what the position stats looked like in smaller mma promotions which in some ways are more representative of a likely opponent since you're more likely to encounter someone of the skill level of a small mma promotion than someone of the skill level of a UFC fighter.
MMA basically keeps the martial art in BJJ honest. Being on bottom, generally speaking, is a death wish against someone who can strike and who isn't a complete idiot on the ground.
Good shit. Something you'll want to consider if you're training your BJJ for MMA (given your statistics) is that you will want to train strong transitions from the back control TO the mount position. A lot of guys in MMA will give the back more readily because it's easier to defend, and when cage wrestling, you'll find that a lot of guys will defend rides more strongly then they'll defend insertions to the back control (wedging yourself between them and the cage to take the back). Knowing this, one of my favorite strategies against my partners is always to push them back to the wall, clinch, off balance to the rear body lock, and then work to wedge into the fence. From the back control, I swap to two-on-one kimura control (like you're going for the old school armlock), then transition to cross-body ride, which will almost always give you mount or back mount depending on their response. You can cheat a lot of guys reactions who have been doing MMA for a while by going for the 'inferior' position (back) and transitioning to stronger MMA positions (Rides & Mount).
Good strategy and yes you are absolutely right, the most common transition from mount is to back, the most common transition from back is to mount or back mount, the most common transition from back mount is mount or back control
Great video and analysis. i was wondering if you thought the level of no gi jiujitsu in mma is on the same level has high level no gi jiujitsu. For example John Danaher and ryan Gordon's jiujitsu style is very dominant over the traditional brazilian in no gi but how many mma fighters have implemented these higher level techniques in the cage. Also Johnny Bravos rubber guard and other techniques were designed specifically for mma and have shown some success in the cage. I 100% agree that mma jiujitsu and sport jiujitsu requires different kinds of training but im just wondering if the mma fighters have caught up with the current level of jiujitsu thats out there or if they sre even close. You don't see much rubber guard and it was designed for mma, you can even see nate diaz using a somewhat rubber guard in TUF when someones in his guard and I'm pretty sure that was before rubber guard was ever invented he likely developed it independently of Johnny and it shows some success
I don't think lack of jiu jitsu skill is a problem within the results. Garry Tonon and Kron Gracie are 99th percentile in Jiu Jitsu so if they are losing fights then that's telling you something. Gordon Ryan is better within a BJJ ruleset with no strikes and low empahsis on takedowns, if he had to improve his striking and takedown levels then logically that would have an effect on his jiu jitsu skills. Rubber guard isn't any worse than other guards, but the top player is winning in MMA. So they can be very conservative without needing to risk anything to pass guard. Unless you actually submit them, you will almost certainly lose the round for being on bottom after a takedown.
True, these aren't necessarily radically new concepts, we just tried to quantify it. A lot of BJJ teams have people who want to try MMA at some point, but what is optimal for IBJJF competition and MMA are very different so something has to give.
Important to note exposing the back in mma with no strikes to the back of the head is a major reason TKOs/KOs don't happen. Flattening someone out or riding turtle is a great way to really hurt someone with strikes but the awkward looping punches have a lot less power from many angles.
i've been looking at developing closed guard for MMA and what i've found to be having a fair amount of success is being hyper aggressive with sub attempts, with the idea that you'll either get the sub, the sweep, or use it to get up. the best examples off the top of my head are Charles Oliveira throwing up the arm bar to escape, Diego Lopes and his top lock, and Carlos Diego Ferreira and his omoplatas to escape. however i do agree with your percentages, that if i were to train mma fighters i would have most of them looking to wrestle in and out of most positions.
Be careful, because if you get taken down against the cage, a good opponent will almost always wedge your head between them and the fence. You'll be completely stacked against the cage w/ very little opportunity to defend strikes or attack any positional or submission attempts.
You have to mix everything, Henry Cejudo is a great wrestler but surprisingly lacking in front headlock offence. a serious submission threat would have been a great compliment to his game in my opinion.
UFC rules are not tailored to bjj. Take away the hand wraps, and the gloves they protect you from breaking your hands. Take away the standups and the 5, 5 minute round format. This is all old stuff, but sure take this stuff away, and Gordon Ryan might actually have a chance of beating some of these guys.
Nah the title should be, how do we modify sport jiu jitsu to make it a more realistic transition to mma/self defense….. I think severely penalizing guard pulling is key and make sacrifice throws and flying submissions the only legal way to go to your back from standing.
Do you think guard would be superior to turtling in the gi? Its hard to tangle someone up whos shirtless and sweaty, and its hard to hold them down. That said, judo still uses turtle but that might be due to pinning?
What ruleset are you assuming? I'd say Combat Sambo has a preference for turtle because it's got strikes and pins within the guard. BJJ has removed strikes, slams, pins and forces standing players to engage grounded ones. These all make the guard more powerful in BJJ, but take the sport out of line with every other combat sport.
Ironic that the BJJ that's better suited for MMA is the older 'beaches of brazil' stuff. Unfortunately, it's not what it optimal for winning in IBJJF rules, so ultimately gyms need to choose which is more important to them.
That's true and i'm not telling anyone that there's a wrong or a right way. Personally i've just seen a lot of people train for ~4 years and then decide they'd like to try MMA. Often they find that what they'd become good at in BJJ, isn't going to translate well. For people that are sure they never want to fight MMA, there's no problem. For people that want to keep the door opne, I urge them to get good at the front headlock, rear bodylock and takedowns @@KingMob4313
The modern ufc ruleset has made bjj less effective not bjj itself. The upkick from open guard neutralizes a opponent standing and trying to ground and pound you. Thats just one example. Obviously if you take away the tools available then that strategy becomes less effective.
Love this video. Been have the same thoughts for a while glad to see the data has backed it up. From a sport bjj perspective - i stopped going for submissions a while back unless they led to a position change, like rolling kimura, choi bar to arm bar. I think, the next bjj evolution in MMA will be a slight increase in takedowns but a large increase in sweeps and reversals.
Good video. Here’s my issue with your analysis: The VAST majority of people who do JJ do not train so they can beat professional MMA fighters. They train because it’s fun. For the average Joe “hobbyist”, JJ is SUPPOSED to teach you how to defend yourself against an untrained opponent. Problem is, almost nobody teaches the old school self defense stuff anymore. So now what you have is a sad situation where hobbyists (and even professional JJ competitors) have no idea how to defend themselves against a normal person. If you want to have a chance against a trained MMA fighter, you have to train MMA. But you’re not gonna get into a fight with one, so I wouldn’t worry about it. What needs to happen is that JJ schools keep teaching all the awesome new modern stuff while bringing back the self defense curriculum. Otherwise, the “Self defense!” plastered on every school’s website and social media page is just a lie. A marketing tool.
The difference between an MMA fighter and an untrained opponent is the quality of the technqiue you're getting back. Everything that will work against an MMA fighter will work against an untrained opponent but not everything that works against an untrained opponent will work against a trained one. Now it won't "work" against a pro in the same way that I probbaly can't even RNC Gordon Ryan if i start in the position, but we can definitively say RNCs work.
Probably, more or less the same. It's not easy to hit a submission from the closed guard without the gi, against someone who knows what they are doing, and can punch you in the face
@@easternpandawesternlion2712given that like 99.9% of competitors, i compete at the amateur level fully understanding i will not be in the .1% that makes it into the UFC, yes, definitely.
We compared the proportions of submissions in the UFC, to ONE, Bellator and PFL. It's near identical except slightly more leg locks outside the UFC. In a BJJ context, not many people are interested in learning things at blue / purple that they know won't carry them at black, even though most people who train don't reach black@@sevourn
Great video! If I understood you correctly- If I'm in closed guard, take the back or sweep. If I'm in half guard, wrestle up, sweep, or take the back. Best position, top mount!!
Back takes from bottom and sweeps are very rare in MMA, use your guard to make space and get back to your feet. Wrestle up from turtle rather than half guard.
I think you should have gone into wrestling. i'd love to see statistics on when excellent BJJ grapplers struggle with take downs. Imagine someone as skillful as Ortega who could wrestle like Khabib, same with Dern or any other high level Jiu jitsu practitioner. I really think Jiu Jitsu in MMA is limited by how wrestling specific take downs are practiced in BJJ gyms.
Do you have a specific stat you want to see on takedowns? The focus this year was on positional exchanges but the 2024 study is on takedowns. So far, the takedowns that are highly effective are either against the cage or similar to combat sambo. The reason being that it's the combination of the striking and the takedown that makes the effectiveness. We don't see so many people willing to shoot from range with a peneration step, although Jailton Almeida is a noticable exception. Presumably they don't want to end up like Ben Askren. What's more common, when not against the cage, is like what Merab Dvalishvili does where he's slipping and ducking strikes so that he's starting his takedown against some stood quite upright.
One question I want to ask, how come we don't see the gift wrap combined with striking in MMA anymore. Like a Rickson Gracie style, that is a very effective technique for striking, trapping opponents arm around his own neck while striking him in his face, if you can get to that position.
It's hard to say why something isn't happening, the video only really states what did happen. However, I would say that mount is the position where most significant ground and pound is landed (44% of the overall), so many fighters are going to turtle as soon as they realise they can't stop the mount, which is usually coming from half guard so they have some time to register the positional progression. The odds are that if you try to turtle quickly after you're mounted 19% chance you turtle successfully, 45% chance they take your back but don't finish a submission there and don't land ground and pound, 36% chance they take your back and submit you. Some people do try to keep cycling through back, mount, back mount, but those are the ones who tend to absorb significant ground and pound. If you accept bottom mount your odds of escaping are between 18% and 37% (i.e. worse than turtling) the range is depending on how we count things like your opponent choosing to exit the position without you actually doing an escape.
There are half guards and there are half guards. Demian Maia showed that a high shield half guard mostly focused on coming up on a single leg was incredibly effective. A high knee shield with wrist control makes the only option to swing over the high shield, making space to dig a deep underhook and get up on the single.
@@pcprinciple3774 they are the once that have been successful in MMA with their Jitsu. Tonnon has torn through MMA guys with his submission game , you debile 🤣🤦🏻
Get on top, stay on top✅ The data are interesting and appreciate your work. I think a much more interesting question would be, “what modern jiu jitsu techniques make the bottom position more viable within an mma ruleset?” It’s always interesting to see the overlap in evolution.
Staying on bottom just isn't viable, you want to get back to your feet. The 2 best positions to do that from are turtle or the rear bodylock. Threatening the legs from these positions can be a great way to create space and get back up, maybe even get a submission. Wrestlers aren't used to the inversion threat, Judoka aren't used to the leg lock threat, Sambo only goes so deep into the leg locking before time runs out. But people need to understand the probability of finishing the leg lock is about the same as getting knocked out whilst going for it, so threaten it, use the threat to make space and don't get tunnel vision going for the submission.
Jiujitsu has become a travesty. Nogi grapping is ruled by the seated guard and not getting punched in the face. Gi Jiujitsu has become tug of war with the gi and seems not even remotely related to fighting anymore.
My personal opinion is that BJJ is the best sport to learn submissions and submissions are still very important. However, you're right that a proportion of the BJJ community try to make BJJ about guard, not submissions. They are doing a disservice to the broader applicability of BJJ outside of BJJ rules.
"Wrestling has become a travesty. The whole thing is about not getting both of your shoulders on the ground". "Muay Thai has become a travesty, the whole thing is about hitting people and dumping them, but they don't even care about ground and pound of submissions". "Boxing has become a travesty, they wear big gloves and don't even allow biting or knees to the groin"
Gi Jiu Jitsu has more real life applications then people think, I was attacked by a guy with 100 lbs on me afew years ago downtown and those Gi grips tips the odds in my favor handedly.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 wrestling and submission grappling without gi seems more relevant for real world violence. And with regards to fights against people wearing heavy clothing Sambo and Judo etc seems to give better skills as you can throw and control them. BJJ right now is all about a trillion versions of gi guards and how to pass them. Which does not seem to translate to anything outside BJJ.
We'd probably see more finishes from the back and more submissions in general. The back is the most likely place the time runs out and there were plently of times people were saved by the bell. However, it wouldn't necessarily change the fight outcome much because those people usually won the round on the judges scorecard.
MMA really is its own thing, you're not going to learn to cage wrestle anywhere other than MMA training. However, you're right that having training partners who are skilled at folkstyle are great for helping you develop a good rear bodylock, which is a must have, along with takedowns and keeping someone from getting up. BJJ is going to give you the submission knowledge which is also an essential component. Competing in a BJJ ruleset doesn't encourage takedowns, people generally don't fight to hard to stand back up and there's not likely to be much rear bodylock action unless both competitors want there to be.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 rear bodylock is illegal in folkstyle until the person stands up. On the mat you can’t lock your hands. I am not sure whether he was making that distinction here, but just for clarification that’s a big difference between folkstyle and international wrestling. The mat return is definitely a great folk style skill for MMA, because you remain on the back. In international wrestling, we would rather suplex there, as the point system rewards the throw. Proper stand ups with hand control is all folkstyle wrestling. And yeah no doubt that the wall certainly changes things. The concepts of inside control in wrestling and judo are the same and translate well with or without a cage. But the cage definitely adds a different dimension.
thanks for the clarification, i'm outside the US so my knowledge of folkstyle is limited. But what you said makes sense and it made me laugh because one of my team mates got suplexed (badly) in freestyle whilst trying to do a rear bodylock escape. We have quite limited training resources here so basically he's picked up an escape that was more for a different ruleset and go dropped for his troubles @@josephbreza-grappling9459
It has but try finding folkstyle outside of America. Here in Europe there's only freestyle and more Greco in the east and north. Freestyle doesn't have the escapes from turtle and rear bodylock that are highly effective in MMA, because of the back exposure rules.
yes, i just mean for actual competition. It sort of saps your motivation when you know you can use the techniques in the competitions available @@raweriio3306
You're generally going to need very different entires to the takedown, the type that are more often found in combat sambo. Wrestling finishing mechanics, scramles and pinning will be enormously helpful.
Outlier Database: outlierdb.com/
More bjj for mma please. Love your videos mate!
I know you are busy with no gi, but please upload bjj for MMA content whenever you can 🙏
Great video! The emphasis placed on turtle, front headlock, mat returns, and staying on top is a solid explanation as to why we are seeing so many people with wrestling bases succeed in MMA. Those things all exist in BJJ, but they are much more fundamental in wrestling.
topic for mma is awesome . do something like this more please
Never pull guard
Great analysis. I think it's also worth noting that there are a tonne of positions that aren't really 'traditional' BJJ but that offer fantastic control for pummelling a guy (eg shelving the legs and getting the handcuff/wrist control) that MMA guys would really benefit from learning
Definitely and particularly when these get combined with being against the cage, it really takes people out of the comfort zones
Jiu jitsu rules really ought to punish guard pulling. One move that does more than any other to bring jiu jitsu away from a self defense litmus test and into la la land.
My personal opinion is that one simple rule change would massively improve the applicability of BJJ for MMA: a grounded player must stand up, to meet a standing player. This would bring BJJ back in line with every other combat sport! It's cool if people want to pull guard, but they should actually have to pull guard and keep the other person there, not flop to the ground and then rely on a referee directing the standing player to engage. Literally every other sport does it that way.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712guard pulling isnt the problem, its that they always play guard. You arent trying to stand if youre using your legs to attack. So bjj people dont get enough practice holding down people who try to stand up. I didn't learn a basic wrestling ride or half nelson until about 2 years in because i hadn't dealt with opponents who give their back to me willingly. Without wrestling tools i couldn't solve a wrestling problem.
A point penalty for pulling guard, in addition to an advantage for the individual that is NOT playing on their butt, would go a long way. It would mean that even someone that is taken down has a reason to stand back up rather than butt scooting.
Man... don't recall Royce not respecting the tap. Pretty ridiculous
Different time for sure
It’s why you need judô and wrestling in you’re bjj for mma
This is gonna come off really disrespectful, but I think the stats would be a lot more grim if you removed wmma from the stats. A lot of the clips in the "BJJ for MMA" portion was using a lot of wmma clips as evidence.
Yeah I don't think it's gonna work for the men who have less holes in their game.
edit - You can break it down even further like if you go for a leglock at flyweight, you have a better chance probably compared to HW because HW's hit harder and probably will KO you but on the other hand hw's probably never train leg lock defense so that might make it easier.
So… turn your jiu jitsu into catch wrestling 😅
Awesome content, I really love that you didnt just look at the end results but how they got there
Thanks, I felt that was important because back takes in BJJ have exploded in the modern era, but actually the ones we see working in MMA are very limited, very old school. Not everyone cares that their berimbolo matrix backtake isn't proven in MMA, but this video is for those who do.
This is great. I have been saying many of these things for years. More content like this please, our grappling training and the skills we spend the majority of our time developing should be informed by what can and does happen in a real fight.
You won’t actually be able to develop that unless you are pressure testing it with strikes.
So refreshing to see someone saying these things! I've been on this train for years and the BJJ world still doesn't seem to get it.
Unfortunately, some BJJ places are determined to make the sport '50 shades of guard' when really there's so much more to it
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 In the name of the Guard, the Back Control, and the Holy Rear Naked Choke *crosses self*
@@luchador1764bro i hate it. Training at renzo gracie pretentious ass nyc academy, they love the “you need this belt to do this so come everyday and learn the same things for 2-3 years” mentality 😂. Thats why they have no fighters improving
More MMA grappling , turtle and 4 point please.
is there anything specific you'd like to know about turtle from the data?
High quality content!!Keep it up!
Please do more videos on BJJ for MMA.
This is necessary work to continue growing and improving our martial art.
Just came across this video, awesome 🙌🏻
Early on there were no rounds, every round starts standing so that favors strikers. Also fan heavily favor strikers, so there is a major incentive to strike rather than grapple.
amazing datas , and great analysis as well !
This is Gracie jiu jitsu my friends, still breathing in some schools in Brasil,
Submition rate declined because new upcoming fighters don't train BJJ because it takes too much time and effort to be good at it. It's much easier to just bang it out. 🤷🏻 Fact.
But the one who still is willing to put time and effort, is and will be the king in MMA. Submition work is still the king and it always will be.
I wonder if MMA had longer rounds if BJJ would be come more relevant again. Or maybe once a year have an unlimited time fight.
Yeah, I’ve heard that argument before and I agree. Having rounds where you start with standing favors striking. Going back to no rounds would make it more beneficial to take someone down and control them. Also, MMA has had significant advances in standing back up after takedowns. Though I think his analysis still holds regardless.
That would probably elevate back control further, since a lot of rounds run out of time there. But i don't think closed guard would fare much better, the standard of defence is too high now.
That’s one of my thoughts too. Gloves are another big factor that hampers BJJ for MMA. Notice the lack of gloves when Royce was doing his thing.
I agree, gloves make grips harder and it’s illegal to grab their gloves like you would a gi or piece of clothing
da copes
u get unlimited td attempts with 0 reprecussions vs strikers
what if they just allow everyone to knee u in da head in sprawl or stomp u like they did in pride
MMA rn is geared towards boring grapplers enough as is
G!reat
Full guard: spam submissions
If wrestler type tries stack approach for ground n pound go into K guard?
Regarding the statistic on successful takedowns (because I’m thinking about your video on wrestling), I’d like to know how many of those we’re actually takedown reversals.
If you pause at 2:01, the 433 takedowns were all clean in the sense of the person initating the takedown, finished it. Reversals are part of the 78.
making my mma debut this coming Saturday, this video basically sums up my grappling training priorities for the past 4 weeks.
Good luck, let us know how it goes
Welll. I won by decision.
I'll look to upload some of the phone vids someday.
But it might get struck down.
that's great, well done. Was there much grappling in the fight?@@carelhaasbroek1575
@@carelhaasbroek1575Would be nice of you could post it
@@carelhaasbroek1575 good job on your win but I’ll fuck you up bro you’re just not on my level
It’s ok bro, you can say that folkstyle wrestling is useful. 😂😂 The combination of wrestling, BJJ, and judo is awesome. BTW, there’s really not much of a mechanical difference between a headlock and a whizzer. You can post our your hand with a whizzer the same way you can post it out on the headlock. In folkstyle wrestling, the defense to the whizzer kick (uchi mata) or headlock is to use their momentum. It’s about whether the person knows to hip down or not and/or let go to post out. In both cases, the bottom player still has an underhook if the roll through doesn’t work. Very similar mechanics, just that the whizzer arm is around the head instead of around the arm. In many ways, it’s actually easier to get stuck with the whizzer (arm trap) than with the headlock. It’s the execution of the throw, not the actual throw. Rhonda Rousey didn’t rolled through for a reason-her execution of hari goshi was world class.
A lot of the head and arm throws being countered arn't via roll through, Valentina went for one near the end of the fight against Alexa Grasso and it just turned into a back take.
@@pcprinciple3774 yes that can happen. It’s been awhile, but I think I was responding to something he said on the video.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 sure, i liked your clarification, it was a good point and the video did show a roll through. But given the other things that can go wrong with trying to hold a sweaty head / arm, i feel the whizzer is more reliable. I re-watched what Shevchenko did, it could be argued that it wasn't even a head and arm throw, but I don't think she would have ended up having her back taken with a whizzer. But i'd be interested what you think, it's at 6:38 ua-cam.com/video/TlkleW7Mi8k/v-deo.html
@@pcprinciple3774 odd, it says the video is not available in my country
@@pcprinciple3774 it honestly depends on the height of the person. I cannot do much with a whizzer uchi mata, because my height hinders me from getting the lift on a lot of people. It wasn’t as big of an issue for me in college wrestling, since I was actually on the taller side of my weight class at only 5’6”. But in judo or bjj, people are taller than me (usually heavier too) and I don’t have the lift, with the whizzer. But if you understand the intricacies how the headlock works, you bait them into pushing and they do the work for you. With a sagging headlock, you don’t have to lift with the inside leg, which is why it’s better for my bodytype. It’s a common misconception that the headlock is primarily the head…it’s the far arm. And if you’re pulling too hard then you didn’t set it up right and deserve to slip. We wear singlets in wrestling and are slippery. But the vast majority of my pins in collegiate wrestling were from sagging headlocks-often with seconds left on the clock when they are dripping wet
Love this analysis! And one thing I'd add is this. In bjj relatively little emphasis is made on (a) staying on *top* when taking the back (i.e. riding) rather than rolling to the bottom, and (b) *flattening the person out* in that position and totally taking away their base--which in fact can make nailing the RNC harder... but is devastating to the bottom person when strikes are added to the mix. (Pictures of the end of Hughes-Gracie from many years ago running through my head. 😏)
woud be interesting too see what the position stats looked like in smaller mma promotions which in some ways are more representative of a likely opponent since you're more likely to encounter someone of the skill level of a small mma promotion than someone of the skill level of a UFC fighter.
Is Mikey Musumeci narrating this video??
This is one of your best statistical analysis, where you ad the technical and tactical kontext to giving an insight to why the data looks lik it does.
Agreed. He’s getting more analytical and thus an asset to all of us. 🎉
Someone please, I’m begging, get this video into the hands of Paul Craig
This is why the Gracies don't like modern BJJ. Because it's evolved more into a "sport" than what it was meant to be, a self defense system.
Corey sandhagen brought this up with not exposing the back to get up is kinda.oldschool thinking. Was like dertick lewis.just stand up
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Funny how different grappling is when it's an actual fight lol. No more room for weird nonsense.
MMA basically keeps the martial art in BJJ honest. Being on bottom, generally speaking, is a death wish against someone who can strike and who isn't a complete idiot on the ground.
No offense, brother, but just stick to wrestling if you want to be a UFC champion
These stats support the argument that wrestling is strongest foundation from which to build a well-rounded MMA skillset.
YOu have a video 2 years ago speculating that half guard from bottom will probably be the dominate guard. Do you still think so?
Great to finally see a useful grappling for mma video ! Love it !
Good shit. Something you'll want to consider if you're training your BJJ for MMA (given your statistics) is that you will want to train strong transitions from the back control TO the mount position. A lot of guys in MMA will give the back more readily because it's easier to defend, and when cage wrestling, you'll find that a lot of guys will defend rides more strongly then they'll defend insertions to the back control (wedging yourself between them and the cage to take the back). Knowing this, one of my favorite strategies against my partners is always to push them back to the wall, clinch, off balance to the rear body lock, and then work to wedge into the fence. From the back control, I swap to two-on-one kimura control (like you're going for the old school armlock), then transition to cross-body ride, which will almost always give you mount or back mount depending on their response.
You can cheat a lot of guys reactions who have been doing MMA for a while by going for the 'inferior' position (back) and transitioning to stronger MMA positions (Rides & Mount).
Good strategy and yes you are absolutely right, the most common transition from mount is to back, the most common transition from back is to mount or back mount, the most common transition from back mount is mount or back control
So what you are telling us is that the best bjj for mma is wrestling 😭
I think one of the best people who utilize jiu jitsu in mma is Gilbert burns
Awesome video.
Thank you 🙌🏼
Can we please get the power point? 👉🏿👈🏿🥺
So, get better at wrestling because we suck 😉
Great video and analysis. i was wondering if you thought the level of no gi jiujitsu in mma is on the same level has high level no gi jiujitsu. For example John Danaher and ryan Gordon's jiujitsu style is very dominant over the traditional brazilian in no gi but how many mma fighters have implemented these higher level techniques in the cage. Also Johnny Bravos rubber guard and other techniques were designed specifically for mma and have shown some success in the cage. I 100% agree that mma jiujitsu and sport jiujitsu requires different kinds of training but im just wondering if the mma fighters have caught up with the current level of jiujitsu thats out there or if they sre even close. You don't see much rubber guard and it was designed for mma, you can even see nate diaz using a somewhat rubber guard in TUF when someones in his guard and I'm pretty sure that was before rubber guard was ever invented he likely developed it independently of Johnny and it shows some success
I don't think lack of jiu jitsu skill is a problem within the results. Garry Tonon and Kron Gracie are 99th percentile in Jiu Jitsu so if they are losing fights then that's telling you something. Gordon Ryan is better within a BJJ ruleset with no strikes and low empahsis on takedowns, if he had to improve his striking and takedown levels then logically that would have an effect on his jiu jitsu skills. Rubber guard isn't any worse than other guards, but the top player is winning in MMA. So they can be very conservative without needing to risk anything to pass guard. Unless you actually submit them, you will almost certainly lose the round for being on bottom after a takedown.
Nice breakdown. Jack Slack has been pretty vocal about this for a long time too.
True, these aren't necessarily radically new concepts, we just tried to quantify it. A lot of BJJ teams have people who want to try MMA at some point, but what is optimal for IBJJF competition and MMA are very different so something has to give.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu bros on suicide watch
Important to note exposing the back in mma with no strikes to the back of the head is a major reason TKOs/KOs don't happen. Flattening someone out or riding turtle is a great way to really hurt someone with strikes but the awkward looping punches have a lot less power from many angles.
You are extremely smart
Submission Wrestling
Excellent analysis!!!
i've been looking at developing closed guard for MMA and what i've found to be having a fair amount of success is being hyper aggressive with sub attempts, with the idea that you'll either get the sub, the sweep, or use it to get up. the best examples off the top of my head are Charles Oliveira throwing up the arm bar to escape, Diego Lopes and his top lock, and Carlos Diego Ferreira and his omoplatas to escape. however i do agree with your percentages, that if i were to train mma fighters i would have most of them looking to wrestle in and out of most positions.
Personally if i was looking for a bottom closed guard attack system for MMA, it would be high tempo for the reasons you're saying.
The Diaz brothers used to have some incredibly dangerous and effective guards for mma as well.
Be careful, because if you get taken down against the cage, a good opponent will almost always wedge your head between them and the fence. You'll be completely stacked against the cage w/ very little opportunity to defend strikes or attack any positional or submission attempts.
@@davidbanta5999 i know that all too well unfortunately,
Nice
So Essentially, you're better off being a wrestler with top dominance.
You have to mix everything, Henry Cejudo is a great wrestler but surprisingly lacking in front headlock offence. a serious submission threat would have been a great compliment to his game in my opinion.
UFC rules are not tailored to bjj. Take away the hand wraps, and the gloves they protect you from breaking your hands. Take away the standups and the 5, 5 minute round format. This is all old stuff, but sure take this stuff away, and Gordon Ryan might actually have a chance of beating some of these guys.
Just allowing strikes to the head from back control, Would totally change the dynamic of back control in MMA
Nah the title should be, how do we modify sport jiu jitsu to make it a more realistic transition to mma/self defense…..
I think severely penalizing guard pulling is key and make sacrifice throws and flying submissions the only legal way to go to your back from standing.
Personally I never understand why people pull guard instead of just going for a sacrifice throw
Great video! I would love to hear more of these mma analysis.
Do you think guard would be superior to turtling in the gi? Its hard to tangle someone up whos shirtless and sweaty, and its hard to hold them down. That said, judo still uses turtle but that might be due to pinning?
What ruleset are you assuming? I'd say Combat Sambo has a preference for turtle because it's got strikes and pins within the guard. BJJ has removed strikes, slams, pins and forces standing players to engage grounded ones. These all make the guard more powerful in BJJ, but take the sport out of line with every other combat sport.
So just wrestle
But you very rarely get directly to the mount so you should have good passing or sweeps to get to the mount in mma?
Definately passing, your chance of getting a sweep to mount is near zero
Could you make a video of Marcelo Garcias strategy
Sick ass intro my guy
👊🏼👊🏼👊🏼
Loveeeeee this. More pls
So “just stand up” is literally the statistical best option 😂 wow
That is what the data says, yes! 😅
Love the mma content
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Fantastic analysis!
Chris Haueter is correct as usual.
Ironic that the BJJ that's better suited for MMA is the older 'beaches of brazil' stuff. Unfortunately, it's not what it optimal for winning in IBJJF rules, so ultimately gyms need to choose which is more important to them.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 we're gonna have different BJJ's for different applications.
That's true and i'm not telling anyone that there's a wrong or a right way. Personally i've just seen a lot of people train for ~4 years and then decide they'd like to try MMA. Often they find that what they'd become good at in BJJ, isn't going to translate well. For people that are sure they never want to fight MMA, there's no problem. For people that want to keep the door opne, I urge them to get good at the front headlock, rear bodylock and takedowns @@KingMob4313
Loved this video!!!
The modern ufc ruleset has made bjj less effective not bjj itself. The upkick from open guard neutralizes a opponent standing and trying to ground and pound you. Thats just one example. Obviously if you take away the tools available then that strategy becomes less effective.
I think the case in the ufc has long been that the poor.glove design is a large hindrance to the rear naked and other chokes
I'd love to see you analyze Yair Rodriguez striking from his back in MMA. (With some Tony Ferguson thrown in too)
Bottom guy should always get a stall call because supine closed guard is stalling.
Thanks, player. Another great video.👊you still get the bump without the ask at the end.
Love this video. Been have the same thoughts for a while glad to see the data has backed it up. From a sport bjj perspective - i stopped going for submissions a while back unless they led to a position change, like rolling kimura, choi bar to arm bar. I think, the next bjj evolution in MMA will be a slight increase in takedowns but a large increase in sweeps and reversals.
Sobering! Thank you.
Are you gonna make a vid about the new event that just took place?
Good video. Here’s my issue with your analysis:
The VAST majority of people who do JJ do not train so they can beat professional MMA fighters. They train because it’s fun.
For the average Joe “hobbyist”, JJ is SUPPOSED to teach you how to defend yourself against an untrained opponent.
Problem is, almost nobody teaches the old school self defense stuff anymore.
So now what you have is a sad situation where hobbyists (and even professional JJ competitors) have no idea how to defend themselves against a normal person.
If you want to have a chance against a trained MMA fighter, you have to train MMA. But you’re not gonna get into a fight with one, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
What needs to happen is that JJ schools keep teaching all the awesome new modern stuff while bringing back the self defense curriculum.
Otherwise, the “Self defense!” plastered on every school’s website and social media page is just a lie. A marketing tool.
The difference between an MMA fighter and an untrained opponent is the quality of the technqiue you're getting back. Everything that will work against an MMA fighter will work against an untrained opponent but not everything that works against an untrained opponent will work against a trained one. Now it won't "work" against a pro in the same way that I probbaly can't even RNC Gordon Ryan if i start in the position, but we can definitively say RNCs work.
Except Self-Defense training is choreographed TMA trash.
These are UFC stats. the top few hundred in the sport
What about stats at the amateur level - or early pro?
good point
Probably, more or less the same. It's not easy to hit a submission from the closed guard without the gi, against someone who knows what they are doing, and can punch you in the face
Would you want to follow a strategy at amateur level, that you knew wouldn't translate to professional level?
@@easternpandawesternlion2712given that like 99.9% of competitors, i compete at the amateur level fully understanding i will not be in the .1% that makes it into the UFC, yes, definitely.
We compared the proportions of submissions in the UFC, to ONE, Bellator and PFL. It's near identical except slightly more leg locks outside the UFC. In a BJJ context, not many people are interested in learning things at blue / purple that they know won't carry them at black, even though most people who train don't reach black@@sevourn
Great video!
If I understood you correctly-
If I'm in closed guard, take the back or sweep.
If I'm in half guard, wrestle up, sweep, or take the back.
Best position, top mount!!
Back takes from bottom and sweeps are very rare in MMA, use your guard to make space and get back to your feet. Wrestle up from turtle rather than half guard.
Like
I think you should have gone into wrestling. i'd love to see statistics on when excellent BJJ grapplers struggle with take downs. Imagine someone as skillful as Ortega who could wrestle like Khabib, same with Dern or any other high level Jiu jitsu practitioner. I really think Jiu Jitsu in MMA is limited by how wrestling specific take downs are practiced in BJJ gyms.
Do you have a specific stat you want to see on takedowns? The focus this year was on positional exchanges but the 2024 study is on takedowns. So far, the takedowns that are highly effective are either against the cage or similar to combat sambo. The reason being that it's the combination of the striking and the takedown that makes the effectiveness. We don't see so many people willing to shoot from range with a peneration step, although Jailton Almeida is a noticable exception. Presumably they don't want to end up like Ben Askren. What's more common, when not against the cage, is like what Merab Dvalishvili does where he's slipping and ducking strikes so that he's starting his takedown against some stood quite upright.
One question I want to ask, how come we don't see the gift wrap combined with striking in MMA anymore. Like a Rickson Gracie style, that is a very effective technique for striking, trapping opponents arm around his own neck while striking him in his face, if you can get to that position.
It's hard to say why something isn't happening, the video only really states what did happen. However, I would say that mount is the position where most significant ground and pound is landed (44% of the overall), so many fighters are going to turtle as soon as they realise they can't stop the mount, which is usually coming from half guard so they have some time to register the positional progression.
The odds are that if you try to turtle quickly after you're mounted 19% chance you turtle successfully, 45% chance they take your back but don't finish a submission there and don't land ground and pound, 36% chance they take your back and submit you. Some people do try to keep cycling through back, mount, back mount, but those are the ones who tend to absorb significant ground and pound. If you accept bottom mount your odds of escaping are between 18% and 37% (i.e. worse than turtling) the range is depending on how we count things like your opponent choosing to exit the position without you actually doing an escape.
There are half guards and there are half guards. Demian Maia showed that a high shield half guard mostly focused on coming up on a single leg was incredibly effective. A high knee shield with wrist control makes the only option to swing over the high shield, making space to dig a deep underhook and get up on the single.
and he had no way to use it against Woodley, Covington and Usman because he couldn't get the fight to the ground. 0-49 in takedowns in those fights.
Completely disagree. There is nothing better then guard when on the bottom. It's not Jiu-Jitsu's fault that today's fighters suck at jitsu
Yeah Kron Gracie and Garry Tonon suck at jiu jitsu, maybe DM them and offer them some private lessons to get their level up
@@pcprinciple3774 they are the once that have been successful in MMA with their Jitsu. Tonnon has torn through MMA guys with his submission game , you debile 🤣🤦🏻
Get on top, stay on top✅ The data are interesting and appreciate your work. I think a much more interesting question would be, “what modern jiu jitsu techniques make the bottom position more viable within an mma ruleset?” It’s always interesting to see the overlap in evolution.
Staying on bottom just isn't viable, you want to get back to your feet. The 2 best positions to do that from are turtle or the rear bodylock. Threatening the legs from these positions can be a great way to create space and get back up, maybe even get a submission. Wrestlers aren't used to the inversion threat, Judoka aren't used to the leg lock threat, Sambo only goes so deep into the leg locking before time runs out. But people need to understand the probability of finishing the leg lock is about the same as getting knocked out whilst going for it, so threaten it, use the threat to make space and don't get tunnel vision going for the submission.
Jiujitsu has become a travesty.
Nogi grapping is ruled by the seated guard and not getting punched in the face.
Gi Jiujitsu has become tug of war with the gi and seems not even remotely related to fighting anymore.
My personal opinion is that BJJ is the best sport to learn submissions and submissions are still very important. However, you're right that a proportion of the BJJ community try to make BJJ about guard, not submissions. They are doing a disservice to the broader applicability of BJJ outside of BJJ rules.
"Wrestling has become a travesty. The whole thing is about not getting both of your shoulders on the ground". "Muay Thai has become a travesty, the whole thing is about hitting people and dumping them, but they don't even care about ground and pound of submissions". "Boxing has become a travesty, they wear big gloves and don't even allow biting or knees to the groin"
Gi Jiu Jitsu has more real life applications then people think, I was attacked by a guy with 100 lbs on me afew years ago downtown and those Gi grips tips the odds in my favor handedly.
@@rackembarry you used gi techniques from the guard or to pass him?
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 wrestling and submission grappling without gi seems more relevant for real world violence.
And with regards to fights against people wearing heavy clothing Sambo and Judo etc seems to give better skills as you can throw and control them.
BJJ right now is all about a trillion versions of gi guards and how to pass them.
Which does not seem to translate to anything outside BJJ.
That was dope!! OSS
I wonder how much these statistics would change if there were no rounds?
We'd probably see more finishes from the back and more submissions in general. The back is the most likely place the time runs out and there were plently of times people were saved by the bell. However, it wouldn't necessarily change the fight outcome much because those people usually won the round on the judges scorecard.
Pass that data 🧐
so, basically: the bjj adapted to mma is wrestling. and we already knew that.
Great stuff as usual!
so basically... train folkstyle wrestling instead?
Yeah basically, but not instead by in addition to BJJ. Folkstyle wrestling with a solid understanding of submissions.
MMA really is its own thing, you're not going to learn to cage wrestle anywhere other than MMA training. However, you're right that having training partners who are skilled at folkstyle are great for helping you develop a good rear bodylock, which is a must have, along with takedowns and keeping someone from getting up. BJJ is going to give you the submission knowledge which is also an essential component. Competing in a BJJ ruleset doesn't encourage takedowns, people generally don't fight to hard to stand back up and there's not likely to be much rear bodylock action unless both competitors want there to be.
@@easternpandawesternlion2712 rear bodylock is illegal in folkstyle until the person stands up. On the mat you can’t lock your hands. I am not sure whether he was making that distinction here, but just for clarification that’s a big difference between folkstyle and international wrestling.
The mat return is definitely a great folk style skill for MMA, because you remain on the back. In international wrestling, we would rather suplex there, as the point system rewards the throw.
Proper stand ups with hand control is all folkstyle wrestling. And yeah no doubt that the wall certainly changes things. The concepts of inside control in wrestling and judo are the same and translate well with or without a cage. But the cage definitely adds a different dimension.
ah thank you, sorry i'm outside the US so not as familiar with folkstyle rules but appreciate the clarification@@josephbreza-grappling9459
thanks for the clarification, i'm outside the US so my knowledge of folkstyle is limited. But what you said makes sense and it made me laugh because one of my team mates got suplexed (badly) in freestyle whilst trying to do a rear bodylock escape. We have quite limited training resources here so basically he's picked up an escape that was more for a different ruleset and go dropped for his troubles @@josephbreza-grappling9459
Strange...its almost like you need folkstyle wrestling. The thing that has been known for years...
It has but try finding folkstyle outside of America. Here in Europe there's only freestyle and more Greco in the east and north. Freestyle doesn't have the escapes from turtle and rear bodylock that are highly effective in MMA, because of the back exposure rules.
@easternpandawesternlion2712 if you speak English there are a bountiful amount of even free instructionals
yes, i just mean for actual competition. It sort of saps your motivation when you know you can use the techniques in the competitions available @@raweriio3306
Huh..... Almost like American freestyle wrestling is the winning meta....
You're generally going to need very different entires to the takedown, the type that are more often found in combat sambo. Wrestling finishing mechanics, scramles and pinning will be enormously helpful.