Can we take a second to appreciate this man. As a broke student this guy is compiling hours of research and giving us the most important takeaways from the flo grappling, instructionals, which are all locked behind paywalls, in a digestable format.
There’s also stalling in wrestling which forces the action. There’s no stalling in jj from neutral and in most cases you can flee the mat. This makes for less action of course and there’s no plenty for being very defensive
@paulleclaire8252 I haven't quite finished listening yet but so far all the stats he's bringing up are from ADCC, which most definitely penalizes for stalling and non-agression.
@@paulleclaire8252 agree 100%, there has to be more stalling calls enforced in the sport. In wrestling the stall calls come quick if someone stops working. I think from a practical angle, we should concentrate on controlling our opponent. However, in terms of spectating I'd rather watch a wrestling match than a jiu jitsu match 9 times out of 10. Because If I take the lead in the match, theres nothing stopping me from being a blanket and just holding them there. Like I said from a practical angle it makes sense, but it's just not fun to watch. Like the recent jacob couch and jay rod match was very boring to me. Maybe they should just get the points and be forced to stand up again after the points are scored (they should have some time to work the position tho, not just immediately stand up if you get mount). And a submission wins the match, like how a fall wins the match in wrestling. That way our art is more realistic, instead of people just pulling guard and we get embarrassed in MMA.
@@coloradoclif they do but its not a shot clock where if you dont shoot in one minute its a point. The opponent obviously knows this and can be ready to sprawl and go behind. I'm not disagreeing saying that sprawls and go behinds aren't a fantastic and energy efficient way to score. I'm just saying the rules in college and freestyle force shots in particular more than "action" with guys clubbing heads like crazy or Kyanan getting negatives for crushing Craig Jones.
If we are going to talk about end games, we need to acknowledge the fact that dog fight, turtle, and front head lock all have a very important similarity: they keep you out of guard. I think the reason why singles and doubles aren’t as effective in the end is because we end up in guard where leg locks are readily available (making it more dangerous for the top player). Good footsweeps, slide bys, snap down to front head lock, and the suplex, for example, are takedowns that put you in truly dominant positions in jiu jitsu (like back, side control, or mount). Taking people down for the sake of taking people down only works in a last ditch effort to rack up points at the end of a match. Like you said, you have to think about the end game: a true dominant position. If you can’t directly get there from a certain take down, it’s not worth as much time practicing than others that put you in back, side top, and mount
I think you make a very solid point, although I'd much rather hang in half guard than side control. Obviously I'm talking in a good half guard situation, not landing in half butterfly or smt like that
A person skilled in takedowns won’t end up in guard, but will end up in side control or mount. Khabib is a good example of someone who takes people down and passes the legs to mount without getting caught in guard. It’s hard to analyze and then generalize the wrestling in Jiu Jitsu when there frankly the wrestling isn’t very skilled yet. It will be, I am sure of that. But right now, drawing the conclusion that you shouldn’t work much on it is not a great message. The rules could change overnight where wrestling the takedown game matters more than ever.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 i would also argue that ad the wrestling gets better in bjj people will get better at leg riding even if they do end up in guard after a takedown
So there's an interesting overlap here between wrestling and BJJ... Russian's are by far the best wrestlers in the world and as such when I study wrestling I spend a significant amount of time studying them. One of the main differences between Russian wrestlers and the rest of the world isn't just that they're better at scoring from a front headlock, but they are some of the only wrestlers (in the entire world) who CONSISTENTLY score when THEY are the ones caught underneath in a front headlock. Taking the value of the front headlock one step further, it's not just who can get there, but who can also score once they are put in a front head. So as such I've been spending a lot of my time lately teaching students how to get to the front head AND how to create defensive to offensive cycles if they are caught in it (because just like the data shows, it's all but guaranteed you'll end up there during the match). This is actually one of the focal points I cover in an upcoming instructional as this is one of the areas I believe to be massively underutilized in BJJ. I may have to reference your video lol
for low level blue belt hobbyists like my self, after spending a few week i had scouring UA-cam for good proper front head defense, bringing it up feels like a super power. I hardly get subbed by guillotines, and constantly end up usually in a better position, through drag outs, and dumps. It also allows a high confidence when getting sprawled on that you can escape to at worst a neutral position if not a dominate one.
Tnx for clearing my thoughts! As a dad I must squeeze the best I can from the few hours i have left for training. I appreciate a lot what you have done. You're like a GPT coach for me hahahaha but bring questions that I never had a chance to ask. Love your work, bro.
Kade vs Pj is such an interesting match. Like you said, Pj’s D1 “clean” wrestling still wasn’t enough to help him succeed in the dog fight position where Kade’s “dirty”/unorthodox style helped him win. The difference is not Kade’s technical ability but his jiujitsu sense to avoid the danger once it hits the ground and to capitalize with chain sub attempts, where Pj’s instinct is to chain more wrestling attacks
he does the figure four grip because it helps keep the leg from slipping out, he learned it from andre galvao. you dont see it in wrestling cause leg slipping isnt as much of an issue becuase they wear shoes
No training is bad, but the 5+ years of wrestling it will take to be a really good BJJ player at the 1-2 year level isn't used correctly. Just dedicate 5+ years at BJJ and remember that wrestling doesn't matter outside of high school.
I think it’s important to note that wrestling isn’t just takedowns. The dogfight, is a classic wrestling position. So if Kade the won exchange from the dogfight position, he won from a classic mat wrestling exchange. The best way to win from the dogfight exchange is to get off the waist and drop back down to the legs. Wrapping up the legs prevents the scramble. Staying on the waist gives the person with the overhook/whizzer inside hip position and has offense as long as the guy remains on the waist, which is literally the point and use of the whizzer. It’s taken away when he drops to the legs. The front headlock is also a very common position in wrestling, and good wrestling from there will give you the back. So, it certainly isn’t useless to spend time on mat wrestling, like what was said, when these exchanges are classic wrestling and also so common in jujitsu I wouldn’t expect for the takedowns right now to be so successful when 1. People avoid them by pulling guard and 2. The set ups and mechanics aren’t great so spine posture makes you susceptible to chokes. A proper set up means the person is so out of position that the takedown comes easily. This is what J’Den was saying. The amount of time spent is irrelevant when the execution of the technique isn’t good
Wrestling has better controls, so this is why people who train in MMA dominate blue and purple belts sometimes but not always. In mma and wrestling, you're always active, bjj guys spend too much time with bad guard passing and retention.If you try to pass guard, try to pass, not stall all the training. This is why wrestling up is so good now; they made the game more active.
As a rather strong chess player, Danaher's comments about chess focussing on endgames are BS. The overwhelmingly massive discussion at the top level is because you won't get to a good endgame unless you do well in the opening and middlegame.
Hey it’s me at the 12.07 mark Thanks for the share of my front headlock footage mate! Appreciate the breakdown and the thoughts. Wasn’t easy catching that on an adcc veteran and ufc veteran, dudes tough.
Love the idea of compiling a list of timestamps to show live examples of techniques. If I can help with that effort, I'd be glad to. Can't commit a ton of time, but can definitely watch a few matches a day on Flo and note what happened and when. Could also do the same with Flowrestling or even the UWW youtube channel.
Thank you! I did not even think about flo wrestling. So many matches to watch haha. Right now I am still trying to figure out my system for documenting but once I do it would be nice to have some help. I appreciate it!
I’ve wrestled most of my life. I’m also a black belt who uses a lot of wrestling in my Jiu-Jitsu. I mostly agree. The cost/benefit for most BJJ athletes to learn wrestling simply doesn’t pan out - especially if it means trading less BJJ to do so. But, if your goal is to win big competitions, especially at earlier belts, having a sound grasp of wrestling really helps. One other point of benefit that wouldn’t show up in the data but is nonetheless valuable is the mindset wrestling teaches. Training wrestling with other wrestlers makes you tough and stubborn in a way that most sports can’t. It’s probably the most important thing high level BJJ guys are taking from their time in wrestling rooms.
Really interesting stuff man, seems like you're one of the few people taking this journey seriously and it seems like you enjoy the analysis of it all as well
I think my key takeaway is a bit different based on the data you presented. While I agree a dangerous guard that can threaten leg locks is going to be a cornerstone of your game, I don't think building up an exclusively defensive takedown game is necessarily the best use of time. While you can focus on winning exchanges from top turtle, top headlock, and the dog fight, you can also enter those exchanges with wrestling style takedowns. By developing a strong takedown game, you are entering those positions with an advantage in the scramble provided yoy havs a strong setup. You also have a tons of exposure to those positions by virtue of spending time finishing those takedowns. Additionally, the ability to wrestle up presents a dillema to your opponent as your guard now threatens subs, sweeps, and turtle/stand ups. So my key takeaway is that you need spend time fighting from these positions but takedowns are not necessarily a poor use of time. Treat them as an entry to these positions and work on finishing them in a dominant position.
It's not standing wrestling that's needed in jiu jitsu, it's mat wrestling. Learning to use the all fours position and all of its variants that will push forward jiu jitsu.
This video is amazing. You literally saved me so much time analyzing matches and helped me have some big epiphanies… I’ve been feeling that front headlock is the key to everything! But you brought up the significance of the turtle position too…. I remember an interview on @chadi UA-cam channel with dr Rhadi Ferguson where he said that turtle is where most submissions and finished happen across BJJ, judo, MMA, and wrestling.
Sorry man I dont see that happening on a consistent basis in the near future. I have my plate full with no gi stuff at the moment but maybe once things settle down a bit!
Your last videos of analyzing stats have been in my opinion your best so far. Edit: though i'd add this: If you take advice from unqualified strangers on the internet here's my 2 cents- you will notice when you study guard that effectiveness in positions like the dogfight is a component of having a good guard. Entering tight waist vs whizzer (dogfight) is pretty much the biggest part of half guard bottom. Also wrestling up is probably the most effective way to deal with stalling, this is also predicated on being able to work from the wrestling scramble you will find yourself in. I don't think most people reading this have faced a guy that wants to stall and run away and disengage, but for those who have I am sure they have felt the same thing, especially once you complete a sweep and your opponents go berserk, you keep them down usually through a wrestling scramble. (what Danaher calls 2 phase reversals)
Makes a good case for adapting Judo throws and having a more foot sweep heavy game for no gi to avoid the sprawl counter. Although, Judo throws from certain holds put you out of position when ground work is initiated.
Wrestling isnt takedowns and jiu jitsu isnt submissions. They are both different grappling arts each with an infinite number of effective techniques and strategies.
Awesome video 😍 did you watch ufc cejudo vs sterling. They were a lot in the front headlock position. Henry couldn't improve the position or get a submission. What happened? Henry is a olympic cold metalist in freestyle wrestling? Is front headlock a weak position?
Thanks for the video! It was good, except one point of feedback: I think your analysis may be based on a faulty premise. Your data is largely based on people who are not good at wrestling adapted to Jiu-Jitsu (but instead have learned it in isolation, or have had poor technique taught to them by pure BJJ people). What's successful in ADCC might not be getting to foundational issues. You may have already seen it, but Ryan Hall makes good points in the Modern Defense Guard about these fundamentals. I don't think we've yet seen a good fusion of Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling, and hopefully that's coming down the line. Most of the amazing submission grapplers we're watching aren't there yet. But I agree- training time is an invaluable resource. The opportunity cost on focusing on the standing game versus the aftermath of the takedown is huge.
From what I've noticed, it's beneficial to train in all forms of grappling. After that, we have to decide how to implement all forms into one big form of grappling. Transitions, subs, takedowns, throws, trips. I think thats how the russians are good because they do sambo, wrestling, and judo . They represent overall grappling in my opinion the best, but with that its important to be the initiator, control the match as well as making it look like youre not in charge by using traps. If yall can watch B saitiev wrestle, body awareness and movement with fluidity. Just knowing how the body moves and works . Idk random rant, what do yall think?
To eliminate noise from countering tired/desperate takedowns, it might be worth filtering the data to include only takedowns from the first half of matches.
@@LIMIBJJ Nice! Would love to hear your thoughts on a project I did recently of using Machine Learning for Jiu Jitsu, I get the idea that we could do a nice colab: ua-cam.com/video/nTUs6F4CbTc/v-deo.html Cheers! (love your stuff! Most technical Jiu Jitsu breakdowns on UA-cam!)
I think working on set ups will provide more favorable results in jiujitsu than wrestling since jiujitsu athletes don’t have collegiate level wrestling defense, my my quick 2 cents
The answer is in the Grey area. It’s not wrestling, it is in how much time Jiu Jitsu practitioners spend making the standing game their own, specific to our particular requirements… standing clinch positions, control after the fact, etc. For the longest time Jiu Jitsu has not had its own identity whilst standing, just the usual “bolt on” approach. Time to evolve.
Great content as always. I agree with another comment that wrestling levels matter as well but this also explains why I do much better in MMA grappling than BJJ. Bottom position in BJJ is much lower risk, higher reward than when strikes are involved and disengagement is allowed. 😊
instead of manually trying to classify a bunch of videos as this technique or that, you would probably have an easier time learning enough copy paste ai training tools like fastai. So that you can just copy past code, put images or whatever into folders based on technique and then using that to train the ai. Which you can then use to automatically categorize other videos (though you might have to cut them up into a bunch of images and run the ai through them) . Issue would be you would need to learn enough to know what handful of words you have to change after copy pasting some code and copy pasting like three commands. Either way won't be easy its like take a few weeks to categorize a relatively small number of videos or take a couple weeks to learn how to copy pasta and then use that on a relatively larger number of videos.
Bro you’re a genius lol when I first started watching your videos, my knee jerk reaction was that these in depth studies are probably useful for the top players in bjj but not really applicable for white belts or beginners. I thought that the newbies should probably stick to the basics for their benefit. However, after really thinking about it and carrying a lot of what you’ve researched onto the mats, I think the complete opposite. Essentially what you have done is create a road map to how to efficiently use training time. By identifying weak points and strong points, you’re basically removing the struggles of “not knowing what to do”. These ARE the basics, and these are simple concepts to grasp. I really applaud what you’ve done and It bums me that you’ll be off UA-cam for a bit but I’m looking forward to whatever you’re cooking up next.
Dude this is exactly the goal of my channel and I am very happy it is coming through so thank you for this comment! I will be back with some new toys and some fun content! I appreciate all the support!
I don't know if any of the other commenters has suggested it, but you might want to try just pasting your analysis document into one of the modern AI tools (like ChatGPT or Google Bard) and see how it does with various queries (or even parsing the data and putting it into a format that is easy to load into a database). I'd love to see that data, glad to help with these tools too.
Maybe you wanna checkout chest to back in front of elbows by Giancarlo bodoni, most of the instructional talks about ways to get to the back or to the front headlock from standing, using some wrestling to get as soon as possible to more traditionals jiujitsu positions
Yeah good call. I am considering a subscription model for it. It is definitely taking a lot of work and I am excited to see what we can create. It is coming along!
I'm assuming all of these data and matches are from very high level grapplers/BJJ guys. What difference do you think would be at a beginner level like white belt? Somebody on Reddit wrote that beginners don't have a developed guard or ground game. I suppose there's less data for that and would be harder to factually analyze, but as a beginner wrestler I'm interested in your opinion: if I were to face a white belt in a grappling match, would I do better with good standing takedowns, as the opposite of this video's conclusion?
This is a good question and to be honest I am not really sure. I do not watch many beginner competitors. My initial thought would be that it is a bit situational. For someone like myself I still think it would be easier to pull guard and sweep but I am drawn to this type of game. For someone else it may de different
@@LIMIBJJ thanks for replying! I asked because I may enter an open grappling tournament where you win by submission, but I'm training wrestling so I want to develop a strategy to try to close the submission and ground game gaps. I've been adding some BJJ training but still most (if not all) of my opponents will be "pure" BJJ guys, so I'm thinking of what advantages from wrestling I can exploit.
I think people are waking up to the fact that its easier to defend takedowns than do them. Not just numbers, ask anyone whos rolled from standing. Its happened in mma faster though, where there is severe consequences to not be as energy efficient as possible, resulting in the current meta for wrestling being the kickboxer who uses their wrestling chops to stay on the feet. Im happy though that the top/bottom split is 50-50%, which will mean a diverse metagame which hopefully minimizes double guard pulls or matches where two guys stand and hand fight forever.
It’s easier to defend takedowns against someone who has mediocre takedown skills. I was D1 and wrestled internationally as well. I live near The University of Michigan. If I walked into that room today, I wouldn’t have an easy time defending takedowns. I’d probably get worked over and I have like 25 more years of experience than any of those guys. I am 43 years old now. But in any Jiu Jitsu gym, I am the guy who is taking down guys with 50+ lbs on me and stuffing them too. It’s about skill. Put any of these guys in a high school wrestling tournament and most wouldn’t stuff any shots from District championship level boys. Kade is stupid athletic. He would actually do ok in a D1 practice. He can’t be the poster child for showing wrestling doesn’t work, because Barch had a difficult time taking him down. I would have a difficult time with that guy. He’s a fricking monster with endless cardio and explosive energy
Dude, your work is highly appreciated. Keep it up! As someone who is still in the beginning of his journey, this is exactly what I need, as it helps with what to focus on next
Speaking for myself, man your work is amazing. Thanks a lot for the data. For me, as a competitor, this work is so valuable. I was searching for an UA-cam page like this for a long time. Really well done mate. Keep up with this great work.
This video is f****** gold! I was literally thinking what would i focus on next after I get open guard and leg lock defence down. Keep it up bro! U r raising the level of juijitsu of the community more then some couches teaching live classes
With all the *WRESTLING* that's being applied to these matches, how can they still call it Jiu Jitsu? Traditional Jiu Jitsu is so far less than this. Even the Kimura is just a *double wrist lock!* Masahiko Kimura learned it from a couple of catch wrestlers, while he was on tour and brought it back to Japan. The man even had a wrestling career when he was with Rikidozan.
I think investing in a 2 on 1 or Russian Tie in wrestling will be very applicable to bjj especially on the feet, as I see it as high reward and low risk. As far as dog fighting, the majority of footage that you showed in dog fights the person who had the overhook won the dog fight. There is a breakdown of an Iranian wrestler that is really good in the dogfight position when having an underhook. There are a couple of small details that he implements to make it work. Here is the breakdown ua-cam.com/video/CVM6ur6qZHQ/v-deo.html
For databases and transcribing it into a readable and searchable format, I would recommend either using Notion to set up a DB w/ hyperlinks to videos or Airtable. There is also a concept called behavioral coding, which is what you're doing by annotating the timestamps when something happens (e.g., takedown, submission, etc.).
@@LIMIBJJ btw I'm down to help if you need any thoughts. I've been consciously thinking about it as well. If you have any specific ways of organizing, happy to take your spec and translate it to Notion. I used to use Notes as my primary app, and recently migrated it to Notion from a technique-accrual perspective.
this is awesome, I always thought BJJ guys wrestling was trash, but it kind of makes sense now if even the collegiate guys are using the counter methods
At 14:00 I somewhat disagree with the bit where he said you’re going to see more successful double and single leg takedowns than foot sweeps and thus, at the end of the match when you’re tired, you’re probably going to need to shoot in for a double or single leg. As a judoka, I just want to say that there are still better options in that scenario than shooting in for a double or a single. Me and my guys have messed around a lot during and after judo class without our gi on and I would say from personal experience a lot of turn throws are very effective in these situations (and BJJ in general) IF AND ONLY IF it’s executed from the under hook, over hook, Russian tie, or body lock positions. If you can get into one of those four positions, the entire judo playbook is open to you and you won’t really have to worry about anyone taking your back if you fail or getting stuck in a front head lock. Me and my guys have executed pretty much just about every single common technique you’ll see in competition; e.g., o goshi, uchi mata, harai goshi, sumi gaeshi, tani otoshi, and all the foot sweeps and ashi waza techniques can be done quite effectively out of those four positions. And also, just as a side note, do not just attempt a turn throw with no set up; foot sweeps and ashi waza are very effective at destabilizing your opponent’s base, making him move, breaking his posture and balance, and most importantly, setting up your turn throws.
I wanted to share my experience after watching this video. In my last tournament, I scored first with a takedown in 3 out of 4 matches in the Open class and in my weight division 2 out of 3. It's been a journey from being a pure guard puller with a dangerous closed/knee shield guard to mainly going for takedowns and back takes over the past 1.5 years, with one year of pure wrestling because there was no BJJ school where I was studying. I've discovered that at the level of local BJJ and wrestling competitions, you don't really need elaborate setups. It's more important to be confident in your ability to recover if you fail, which makes it easier to commit to a takedown when you see the opportunity. This approach has led to much more success in my takedowns. I achieved this by focusing solely on finishing the takedown, not on setups. I practiced shooting or starting from a failed shot position in every roll (mainly against heavier training partners) after returning to JJ. Before that, I was simply wrestling defensively and scrambling against the wrestlers. This method might have only worked for me, and I am by no means a sample set for analysis. But I hope my story offers a different viewpoint that you might find interesting and deep. Thank you for your content; it is appreciated!
Another thing to note is how sophisticated their leglock defense system is despite training at a gym that is not known for leglocks at all. Pretty crazy.
Using foot sweeps, circling behind is the best way to deal with people bigger and stronger. Having someone 50+ pounds sprawl on top of you is not good. What an exceptionally put together video!
Old video but I wonder where Greco falls into this analysis. When you don't have to shoot to demolish an opponent standing up, where does that end up? People say they have to worry about shooting but a greco wrestler literally only has to worry about defending a single leg because of the stance which isn't difficult when you know its the only attack your opponent can hit you with from the standup. Anyway just curious because greco is never talked about in BJJ.
This is terrific. Everyone in the comments seems to be adding value as well, and it’s turned into great content along with a great discussion. One thing I’d add is the dichotomy between winning matches and being a crowd pleaser. Meaning, everyone wants to win, but there is a significant percentage of grapplers who are looking to grow the sport into being more palatable for spectators and putting on a show for said spectators. Wrestling, so long as it isn’t just two gorillas exchanging collar ties for 15 minutes, generally makes matches more exciting; which is especially true for people without intricate jiu jitsu knowledge. It seems, though, based on the data, that the type of wrestling exchanges that excite the crowd, tend to end up badly for the grappler who initiates them and tries to be a crowd pleaser. So, how does a grappler reconcile wanting to win the match and using wrestling to please the crowd?
Thanks for reaching out! I have a "community" which is the same thing it is just on Kajabi and not Patreon. It includes access to the discord and will be where the database will be held! Here is the link: limibjj.mykajabi.com/store
Very interesting overview, and I agree that upper body takedowns (throws, foot sweeps, slide by etc.) are better for a specific ruleset like ADCC where getting points from a takedown is almost impossible if defending opponent turtles). Did you do maybe a separate study for overtimes? When there is no guard pull? My two cents: - I would say people get caught in guillotines because they don't use setups when going for a takedowns (if you want to be good at wrestling, you need to learn how to setup takedowns) and also, they end up in guard because of that (how many times do top level MMA fighters end in full guard after a takedown, for example Khabib?) - I would also argue that dog fight, front headlock and turtle also require some sort of takedown initiative (that might require more setup on a higher level), you can't just grab headlock and work from there (e.g. opponent has 2 on 1, how will you get headlock unless you learn how to handfight your way out?) - Another thing, this is not wrestling and opponents can avoid fighting much more, go to freestyle and 90% of them would be penalized in 15 seconds (so you can't just shoot blindly but need to setup takedowns since opponent is basically running away) Also, you focused a lot on ADCC (that is big focus by bigger gyms as well like New Wave, B-Team etc...). What about smaller level competitions? E.g. if I score a takedown and opponent defends I might get a point or advantage under AJP rules for example, matches are shorter, not everyone allows heel hook. This analysis is done on the highest level possible, but what about some blue belt that doesn't have to think about heel hooks in the competition and with takedown is leading 2 points? In ADCC if opponent goes for a takedown you can defend by turtling = 0 points. Go to some other rules (where most people still compete) and you will get a point or advantage for that (which means, you are winning at that point)...
@@LIMIBJJ Did some more research on the position as a wrestling standpoint. The way wrestlers view this position is between two categories of attack: the whizzer position and the seatbelt position. The seatbelt is viewed as the main form of entry for the dogfight and the whizzer is the reaction/counter to the seatbelt. This is apparent in jiu jitsu as well and may seem obvious but my point revolves around this statement. What ultimately gives Kade the advantage in his match was that he has developed a great whizzer control which proved too much for Barch’s seatbelt grip. Kade had the same issue in the match as his seatbelt was countered by Barch's whizzered in the same way. Having a good whizzer control will always help with countering your opponent's attempt to take you down or sweep you and as Danaher once said the highest percentage of takedowns revolve around defending an opponent's attack, so focusing on this position will probably serve you more than learning the seatbelt. However I think the dog fight is similar to the 50/50 position where as the person with the most experience will undoubtedly win the exchange so having a good seatbelt game is not a waste of time in fact with the current meta revolving around whizzer control having a system to counter it will make your game much more dangerous. For those who want to understand this position more, don't refer to it as the dogfight but as the whizzer position and the seatbelt position.
Can we take a second to appreciate this man. As a broke student this guy is compiling hours of research and giving us the most important takeaways from the flo grappling, instructionals, which are all locked behind paywalls, in a digestable format.
🙏🏻🙌🏼
Damn straight, what a champ
@@LIMIBJJyou da realest
This is some of the best grappling meta content out there currently! Thank you!
🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼 Thank you!
Counter point is that D1 wrestlers are failing against other D1 wrestlers, who have wrestling skill parity.
Yep that is true!
There’s also stalling in wrestling which forces the action. There’s no stalling in jj from neutral and in most cases you can flee the mat. This makes for less action of course and there’s no plenty for being very defensive
@paulleclaire8252 I haven't quite finished listening yet but so far all the stats he's bringing up are from ADCC, which most definitely penalizes for stalling and non-agression.
@@paulleclaire8252 agree 100%, there has to be more stalling calls enforced in the sport. In wrestling the stall calls come quick if someone stops working. I think from a practical angle, we should concentrate on controlling our opponent. However, in terms of spectating I'd rather watch a wrestling match than a jiu jitsu match 9 times out of 10. Because If I take the lead in the match, theres nothing stopping me from being a blanket and just holding them there. Like I said from a practical angle it makes sense, but it's just not fun to watch. Like the recent jacob couch and jay rod match was very boring to me. Maybe they should just get the points and be forced to stand up again after the points are scored (they should have some time to work the position tho, not just immediately stand up if you get mount). And a submission wins the match, like how a fall wins the match in wrestling. That way our art is more realistic, instead of people just pulling guard and we get embarrassed in MMA.
@@coloradoclif they do but its not a shot clock where if you dont shoot in one minute its a point. The opponent obviously knows this and can be ready to sprawl and go behind. I'm not disagreeing saying that sprawls and go behinds aren't a fantastic and energy efficient way to score. I'm just saying the rules in college and freestyle force shots in particular more than "action" with guys clubbing heads like crazy or Kyanan getting negatives for crushing Craig Jones.
If we are going to talk about end games, we need to acknowledge the fact that dog fight, turtle, and front head lock all have a very important similarity: they keep you out of guard. I think the reason why singles and doubles aren’t as effective in the end is because we end up in guard where leg locks are readily available (making it more dangerous for the top player). Good footsweeps, slide bys, snap down to front head lock, and the suplex, for example, are takedowns that put you in truly dominant positions in jiu jitsu (like back, side control, or mount). Taking people down for the sake of taking people down only works in a last ditch effort to rack up points at the end of a match. Like you said, you have to think about the end game: a true dominant position. If you can’t directly get there from a certain take down, it’s not worth as much time practicing than others that put you in back, side top, and mount
Excellent point
Great point!
I think you make a very solid point, although I'd much rather hang in half guard than side control. Obviously I'm talking in a good half guard situation, not landing in half butterfly or smt like that
A person skilled in takedowns won’t end up in guard, but will end up in side control or mount. Khabib is a good example of someone who takes people down and passes the legs to mount without getting caught in guard. It’s hard to analyze and then generalize the wrestling in Jiu Jitsu when there frankly the wrestling isn’t very skilled yet. It will be, I am sure of that. But right now, drawing the conclusion that you shouldn’t work much on it is not a great message. The rules could change overnight where wrestling the takedown game matters more than ever.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 i would also argue that ad the wrestling gets better in bjj people will get better at leg riding even if they do end up in guard after a takedown
So there's an interesting overlap here between wrestling and BJJ... Russian's are by far the best wrestlers in the world and as such when I study wrestling I spend a significant amount of time studying them. One of the main differences between Russian wrestlers and the rest of the world isn't just that they're better at scoring from a front headlock, but they are some of the only wrestlers (in the entire world) who CONSISTENTLY score when THEY are the ones caught underneath in a front headlock.
Taking the value of the front headlock one step further, it's not just who can get there, but who can also score once they are put in a front head. So as such I've been spending a lot of my time lately teaching students how to get to the front head AND how to create defensive to offensive cycles if they are caught in it (because just like the data shows, it's all but guaranteed you'll end up there during the match).
This is actually one of the focal points I cover in an upcoming instructional as this is one of the areas I believe to be massively underutilized in BJJ. I may have to reference your video lol
I think this is spot on! Be sure to let me know when that instructional comes out. Would love to check it out
Thank you brother will do!
Love to see when two of your info sources interact 😆 it's like a sign that all the things you're studying connect to each other
@@froggy3496 true both amazing channels
for low level blue belt hobbyists like my self, after spending a few week i had scouring UA-cam for good proper front head defense, bringing it up feels like a super power. I hardly get subbed by guillotines, and constantly end up usually in a better position, through drag outs, and dumps. It also allows a high confidence when getting sprawled on that you can escape to at worst a neutral position if not a dominate one.
Tnx for clearing my thoughts! As a dad I must squeeze the best I can from the few hours i have left for training. I appreciate a lot what you have done. You're like a GPT coach for me hahahaha but bring questions that I never had a chance to ask. Love your work, bro.
This is the goal of the channel so it makes me happy to hear this. Thanks for the comment!
Kade vs Pj is such an interesting match. Like you said, Pj’s D1 “clean” wrestling still wasn’t enough to help him succeed in the dog fight position where Kade’s “dirty”/unorthodox style helped him win. The difference is not Kade’s technical ability but his jiujitsu sense to avoid the danger once it hits the ground and to capitalize with chain sub attempts, where Pj’s instinct is to chain more wrestling attacks
Such an interesting match!
he does the figure four grip because it helps keep the leg from slipping out, he learned it from andre galvao. you dont see it in wrestling cause leg slipping isnt as much of an issue becuase they wear shoes
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No training is bad, but the 5+ years of wrestling it will take to be a really good BJJ player at the 1-2 year level isn't used correctly. Just dedicate 5+ years at BJJ and remember that wrestling doesn't matter outside of high school.
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I think it’s important to note that wrestling isn’t just takedowns. The dogfight, is a classic wrestling position. So if Kade the won exchange from the dogfight position, he won from a classic mat wrestling exchange. The best way to win from the dogfight exchange is to get off the waist and drop back down to the legs. Wrapping up the legs prevents the scramble. Staying on the waist gives the person with the overhook/whizzer inside hip position and has offense as long as the guy remains on the waist, which is literally the point and use of the whizzer. It’s taken away when he drops to the legs.
The front headlock is also a very common position in wrestling, and good wrestling from there will give you the back.
So, it certainly isn’t useless to spend time on mat wrestling, like what was said, when these exchanges are classic wrestling and also so common in jujitsu
I wouldn’t expect for the takedowns right now to be so successful when
1. People avoid them by pulling guard and
2. The set ups and mechanics aren’t great so spine posture makes you susceptible to chokes.
A proper set up means the person is so out of position that the takedown comes easily. This is what J’Den was saying. The amount of time spent is irrelevant when the execution of the technique isn’t good
Thanks for the comment! A lot of good insights!
Wrestling has better controls, so this is why people who train in MMA dominate blue and purple belts sometimes but not always. In mma and wrestling, you're always active, bjj guys spend too much time with bad guard passing and retention.If you try to pass guard, try to pass, not stall all the training. This is why wrestling up is so good now; they made the game more active.
True that!
Love this style of video. Not sure what your background is, but hit a brotha up if you ever want to talk statistics or physics and bjj🙌🏻
Thanks for the support my man!
I would be interested to see a similar analysis but for MMA, because with ground and pound it could change the importance of top position a lot
Yeah I imagine this would change a lot
As a rather strong chess player, Danaher's comments about chess focussing on endgames are BS. The overwhelmingly massive discussion at the top level is because you won't get to a good endgame unless you do well in the opening and middlegame.
Hey it’s me at the 12.07 mark Thanks for the share of my front headlock footage mate! Appreciate the breakdown and the thoughts. Wasn’t easy catching that on an adcc veteran and ufc veteran, dudes tough.
Yeah man super impressive. Keep up good work!
That was slick man
@@LIMIBJJ thanks a bunch legend. Had a few people send me the video saying I was in it, didn’t expect the full breakdown! Haha
@@masonwillms2542 thanks mate, appreciate it 👌🏼 front headlock attacks are my go to.
Love the idea of compiling a list of timestamps to show live examples of techniques. If I can help with that effort, I'd be glad to. Can't commit a ton of time, but can definitely watch a few matches a day on Flo and note what happened and when. Could also do the same with Flowrestling or even the UWW youtube channel.
Really puts them into perspective and make you prioritize what you really need to learn.
Thank you! I did not even think about flo wrestling. So many matches to watch haha. Right now I am still trying to figure out my system for documenting but once I do it would be nice to have some help. I appreciate it!
This is exactly the goal! Thanks for the comment!
I’ve wrestled most of my life. I’m also a black belt who uses a lot of wrestling in my Jiu-Jitsu. I mostly agree. The cost/benefit for most BJJ athletes to learn wrestling simply doesn’t pan out - especially if it means trading less BJJ to do so. But, if your goal is to win big competitions, especially at earlier belts, having a sound grasp of wrestling really helps. One other point of benefit that wouldn’t show up in the data but is nonetheless valuable is the mindset wrestling teaches. Training wrestling with other wrestlers makes you tough and stubborn in a way that most sports can’t. It’s probably the most important thing high level BJJ guys are taking from their time in wrestling rooms.
Great comment. Thank you for this!
Really interesting stuff man, seems like you're one of the few people taking this journey seriously and it seems like you enjoy the analysis of it all as well
I appreciate that. Thanks for the comment and the support!
@@LIMIBJJany other channels you’d recommend?
I think my key takeaway is a bit different based on the data you presented.
While I agree a dangerous guard that can threaten leg locks is going to be a cornerstone of your game, I don't think building up an exclusively defensive takedown game is necessarily the best use of time. While you can focus on winning exchanges from top turtle, top headlock, and the dog fight, you can also enter those exchanges with wrestling style takedowns. By developing a strong takedown game, you are entering those positions with an advantage in the scramble provided yoy havs a strong setup. You also have a tons of exposure to those positions by virtue of spending time finishing those takedowns. Additionally, the ability to wrestle up presents a dillema to your opponent as your guard now threatens subs, sweeps, and turtle/stand ups.
So my key takeaway is that you need spend time fighting from these positions but takedowns are not necessarily a poor use of time. Treat them as an entry to these positions and work on finishing them in a dominant position.
Best video yet
Thanks B-Mac!
It's not standing wrestling that's needed in jiu jitsu, it's mat wrestling. Learning to use the all fours position and all of its variants that will push forward jiu jitsu.
This is the way!
Thanks for all the effort you've put into this man! I've just started back after quitting 5 years ago and this type of content is fascinating :)
Awesome thank you! Glad you are finding it helpful!
This video is amazing. You literally saved me so much time analyzing matches and helped me have some big epiphanies… I’ve been feeling that front headlock is the key to everything! But you brought up the significance of the turtle position too…. I remember an interview on @chadi UA-cam channel with dr Rhadi Ferguson where he said that turtle is where most submissions and finished happen across BJJ, judo, MMA, and wrestling.
Yeah I think these positions are going to be the next things I focus on. Hugely important!!!
Bro can you some content on grappling in an mma context
Sorry man I dont see that happening on a consistent basis in the near future. I have my plate full with no gi stuff at the moment but maybe once things settle down a bit!
Your last videos of analyzing stats have been in my opinion your best so far.
Edit: though i'd add this: If you take advice from unqualified strangers on the internet here's my 2 cents- you will notice when you study guard that effectiveness in positions like the dogfight is a component of having a good guard. Entering tight waist vs whizzer (dogfight) is pretty much the biggest part of half guard bottom. Also wrestling up is probably the most effective way to deal with stalling, this is also predicated on being able to work from the wrestling scramble you will find yourself in. I don't think most people reading this have faced a guy that wants to stall and run away and disengage, but for those who have I am sure they have felt the same thing, especially once you complete a sweep and your opponents go berserk, you keep them down usually through a wrestling scramble. (what Danaher calls 2 phase reversals)
Thanks for the comment! Spot on!
Great video! Can you make a video about “weight bullys”? Basically fat people stalling sitting on their ankles or running from you.
Haha that would be a good one. Thanks for the idea!
Makes a good case for adapting Judo throws and having a more foot sweep heavy game for no gi to avoid the sprawl counter. Although, Judo throws from certain holds put you out of position when ground work is initiated.
Pros and cons to everything!
Have you thought about obsidian as a note taking platform? Its backlink and local graph features would be super useful to a data driven guy like you.
People have recommended obsidian and notion. I have not heard of either but will look into it. Thank you
The true art of grappling is combining these two sports. Take down to a submission.
True that
Wrestling isnt takedowns and jiu jitsu isnt submissions. They are both different grappling arts each with an infinite number of effective techniques and strategies.
Great fucking video. One of the best analysis I have ever seen on bjj
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No it doesn't, wrestling doesn't win fights, Submitions do.
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Where's that clip you posted about head position in the clinch for the hip toss
I don't remember this one? What are you referring to?
Love the statistics stuff. It’d be cool to see a video on loose style outside passing vs pressure passing 😭🙏🏽🙏🏽
Yeah that would be a good one! I am starting to track guard passing data so in the future for sure!
Awesome video 😍 did you watch ufc cejudo vs sterling. They were a lot in the front headlock position. Henry couldn't improve the position or get a submission. What happened? Henry is a olympic cold metalist in freestyle wrestling? Is front headlock a weak position?
I actually have not seen that fight yet. I am looking forward to watching it. Seemed like a close one
I feel like in bjj when people talk wrestling they’re just focused on takedown ability. Improved wrestling improves escape and scramble ability too.
Yep yep!
Thanks for the video! It was good, except one point of feedback: I think your analysis may be based on a faulty premise. Your data is largely based on people who are not good at wrestling adapted to Jiu-Jitsu (but instead have learned it in isolation, or have had poor technique taught to them by pure BJJ people). What's successful in ADCC might not be getting to foundational issues. You may have already seen it, but Ryan Hall makes good points in the Modern Defense Guard about these fundamentals.
I don't think we've yet seen a good fusion of Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling, and hopefully that's coming down the line. Most of the amazing submission grapplers we're watching aren't there yet. But I agree- training time is an invaluable resource. The opportunity cost on focusing on the standing game versus the aftermath of the takedown is huge.
Yeah I am excited to see the grappler 10 years from now that has grown up learning both. The sport still has a long ways to go
From what I've noticed, it's beneficial to train in all forms of grappling. After that, we have to decide how to implement all forms into one big form of grappling. Transitions, subs, takedowns, throws, trips. I think thats how the russians are good because they do sambo, wrestling, and judo . They represent overall grappling in my opinion the best, but with that its important to be the initiator, control the match as well as making it look like youre not in charge by using traps. If yall can watch B saitiev wrestle, body awareness and movement with fluidity. Just knowing how the body moves and works . Idk random rant, what do yall think?
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To eliminate noise from countering tired/desperate takedowns, it might be worth filtering the data to include only takedowns from the first half of matches.
Yeah that would be interesting!
Kade wins because of his pace. Not necessarily his expertise in any position. In my opinion
True that. His pace is unmatched
Hey man! Use Notion! I use it for my own glossary of techniques and interesting grappling moves! :) Cheers!
Interesting I have not heard of that before but will look into it. Thank you!
@@LIMIBJJ Nice! Would love to hear your thoughts on a project I did recently of using Machine Learning for Jiu Jitsu, I get the idea that we could do a nice colab:
ua-cam.com/video/nTUs6F4CbTc/v-deo.html
Cheers! (love your stuff! Most technical Jiu Jitsu breakdowns on UA-cam!)
I think working on set ups will provide more favorable results in jiujitsu than wrestling since jiujitsu athletes don’t have collegiate level wrestling defense, my my quick 2 cents
True!
The answer is in the Grey area. It’s not wrestling, it is in how much time Jiu Jitsu practitioners spend making the standing game their own, specific to our particular requirements… standing clinch positions, control after the fact, etc.
For the longest time Jiu Jitsu has not had its own identity whilst standing, just the usual “bolt on” approach. Time to evolve.
This is the way!
May be a waste of time for sports jiujitsu but it's totally super useful for MMA and/or self defense
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Great content as always. I agree with another comment that wrestling levels matter as well but this also explains why I do much better in MMA grappling than BJJ. Bottom position in BJJ is much lower risk, higher reward than when strikes are involved and disengagement is allowed. 😊
Very true!
Ah yes! All my time spent escaping the back is actually bc I'm smart w my training and not bc my initial defense sucjs
😂
instead of manually trying to classify a bunch of videos as this technique or that, you would probably have an easier time learning enough copy paste ai training tools like fastai. So that you can just copy past code, put images or whatever into folders based on technique and then using that to train the ai. Which you can then use to automatically categorize other videos (though you might have to cut them up into a bunch of images and run the ai through them) . Issue would be you would need to learn enough to know what handful of words you have to change after copy pasting some code and copy pasting like three commands. Either way won't be easy its like take a few weeks to categorize a relatively small number of videos or take a couple weeks to learn how to copy pasta and then use that on a relatively larger number of videos.
Interesting.... looking into this
Half Guard Passing Instructional Course: limibjj.mykajabi.com/course
Join the Community: limibjj.mykajabi.com/store
Bro you’re a genius lol when I first started watching your videos, my knee jerk reaction was that these in depth studies are probably useful for the top players in bjj but not really applicable for white belts or beginners. I thought that the newbies should probably stick to the basics for their benefit. However, after really thinking about it and carrying a lot of what you’ve researched onto the mats, I think the complete opposite. Essentially what you have done is create a road map to how to efficiently use training time. By identifying weak points and strong points, you’re basically removing the struggles of “not knowing what to do”. These ARE the basics, and these are simple concepts to grasp. I really applaud what you’ve done and It bums me that you’ll be off UA-cam for a bit but I’m looking forward to whatever you’re cooking up next.
Dude this is exactly the goal of my channel and I am very happy it is coming through so thank you for this comment! I will be back with some new toys and some fun content! I appreciate all the support!
Your videos never disappoint, keep up the great job!
Thank you! Appreciate the support!
I don't know if any of the other commenters has suggested it, but you might want to try just pasting your analysis document into one of the modern AI tools (like ChatGPT or Google Bard) and see how it does with various queries (or even parsing the data and putting it into a format that is easy to load into a database). I'd love to see that data, glad to help with these tools too.
Very interesting idea. Not sure why I had not thought of this
I work with databases pretty often. If you want help DM me.
I appreciate it!
Maybe you wanna checkout chest to back in front of elbows by Giancarlo bodoni, most of the instructional talks about ways to get to the back or to the front headlock from standing, using some wrestling to get as soon as possible to more traditionals jiujitsu positions
It is on the list for sure. Thank you for the recommendation!
I paid for submeta to study front headlock, dogfight and turtle. Thank you for these findings.
Lachlan is the man!
Focus on turtle/headlock/dog fight, you just described my entire game 🤣😂
Haha you are one step ahead!
I do Japanese jiu jitsu it’s pretty fun but the closest I know to wrestling is Krav Maga and judo
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You should consider charging a small monthly or one time fee for that tool!
It's going to take a lot of work and potentially provide a lot of value.
Yeah good call. I am considering a subscription model for it.
It is definitely taking a lot of work and I am excited to see what we can create. It is coming along!
If you do the take down stat for bad shots, just look at the last minute of each match. It will have a dramatically higher number of failed shots.
True that
I'm assuming all of these data and matches are from very high level grapplers/BJJ guys. What difference do you think would be at a beginner level like white belt? Somebody on Reddit wrote that beginners don't have a developed guard or ground game. I suppose there's less data for that and would be harder to factually analyze, but as a beginner wrestler I'm interested in your opinion: if I were to face a white belt in a grappling match, would I do better with good standing takedowns, as the opposite of this video's conclusion?
This is a good question and to be honest I am not really sure. I do not watch many beginner competitors. My initial thought would be that it is a bit situational. For someone like myself I still think it would be easier to pull guard and sweep but I am drawn to this type of game. For someone else it may de different
@@LIMIBJJ thanks for replying! I asked because I may enter an open grappling tournament where you win by submission, but I'm training wrestling so I want to develop a strategy to try to close the submission and ground game gaps. I've been adding some BJJ training but still most (if not all) of my opponents will be "pure" BJJ guys, so I'm thinking of what advantages from wrestling I can exploit.
So basically, Jiu-jitsu wrestlers need Catch wrestling.
Basically
I bet kade enjoys that whizzer dog fight position with that little whizzer kick since it sets up a knee slide pass into d’arce
Nice little combo
I think people are waking up to the fact that its easier to defend takedowns than do them. Not just numbers, ask anyone whos rolled from standing. Its happened in mma faster though, where there is severe consequences to not be as energy efficient as possible, resulting in the current meta for wrestling being the kickboxer who uses their wrestling chops to stay on the feet. Im happy though that the top/bottom split is 50-50%, which will mean a diverse metagame which hopefully minimizes double guard pulls or matches where two guys stand and hand fight forever.
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It’s easier to defend takedowns against someone who has mediocre takedown skills. I was D1 and wrestled internationally as well. I live near The University of Michigan. If I walked into that room today, I wouldn’t have an easy time defending takedowns. I’d probably get worked over and I have like 25 more years of experience than any of those guys. I am 43 years old now. But in any Jiu Jitsu gym, I am the guy who is taking down guys with 50+ lbs on me and stuffing them too. It’s about skill. Put any of these guys in a high school wrestling tournament and most wouldn’t stuff any shots from District championship level boys.
Kade is stupid athletic. He would actually do ok in a D1 practice. He can’t be the poster child for showing wrestling doesn’t work, because Barch had a difficult time taking him down. I would have a difficult time with that guy. He’s a fricking monster with endless cardio and explosive energy
The database sounds awesome!
Thanks! I am excited for it!
Dude, your work is highly appreciated. Keep it up! As someone who is still in the beginning of his journey, this is exactly what I need, as it helps with what to focus on next
Awesome! This is exactly the goal of my channel so thanks for the comment!
Speaking for myself, man your work is amazing. Thanks a lot for the data. For me, as a competitor, this work is so valuable. I was searching for an UA-cam page like this for a long time. Really well done mate. Keep up with this great work.
Amazing thank you! I appreciate the support!
Cant believe this question still has to be asked..... literally all the best guys in jiu-jitsu wrestle to
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Excellent breakdowns brother. Where can I find the database? I tried checking the site
Thank you my man! The database is going to be apart of the community. Hoping to launch it in the next couple days limibjj.mykajabi.com/store
Notion would be the perfect application to build the database you mentioned
A few people have mentioned this! I will look into it!
BTW: if you need some dev work with your project, give me a shout!
Will do! Thank you for the support!
can I help you with the data analytics for this project? i love bjj and data :)
I am working on a way to allow people to help out with the data! Stay tuned! Thank you for the support!
Scrimmage wrestling is the way.
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Snake Pit teaches that figure 4 grip on the single leg. Kade did it kinda lazy.
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Your my new bjjscout
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Gracias que buen contenido, saludos de Colombia
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Fat Perez making an appearance here is a wonderful surprise.
Haha he is the man!
Once again i am disappointed where is gordon gordon gordon line? :)
Hahaha I miss him sooooo much!
Anyone got sauce for a front headlock instructional?
Interested in this! I know B-Mac is working on one so excited for that!
This video is f****** gold! I was literally thinking what would i focus on next after I get open guard and leg lock defence down.
Keep it up bro! U r raising the level of juijitsu of the community more then some couches teaching live classes
Awesome thanks man! This is the goal of my channel so I appreciate you saying this!
The database with video links is an amazing idea. Definitely something id pay for, seems like an insane amount of work to put together
Awesome yeah I have high hopes for it! Stay tuned!
With all the *WRESTLING* that's being applied to these matches, how can they still call it Jiu Jitsu?
Traditional Jiu Jitsu is so far less than this.
Even the Kimura is just a *double wrist lock!*
Masahiko Kimura learned it from a couple of catch wrestlers, while he was on tour and brought it back to Japan.
The man even had a wrestling career when he was with Rikidozan.
Do you have a link to the Craig interview, haven't seen this one
ua-cam.com/video/gnuifergJ6o/v-deo.html
you should check out obsidian to organize your notes
I will look into it thank you!
I think investing in a 2 on 1 or Russian Tie in wrestling will be very applicable to bjj especially on the feet, as I see it as high reward and low risk. As far as dog fighting, the majority of footage that you showed in dog fights the person who had the overhook won the dog fight. There is a breakdown of an Iranian wrestler that is really good in the dogfight position when having an underhook. There are a couple of small details that he implements to make it work. Here is the breakdown ua-cam.com/video/CVM6ur6qZHQ/v-deo.html
For databases and transcribing it into a readable and searchable format, I would recommend either using Notion to set up a DB w/ hyperlinks to videos or Airtable. There is also a concept called behavioral coding, which is what you're doing by annotating the timestamps when something happens (e.g., takedown, submission, etc.).
Awesome thanks for this comment. A couple people have mentioned notion so I will look into that!
@@LIMIBJJ btw I'm down to help if you need any thoughts. I've been consciously thinking about it as well. If you have any specific ways of organizing, happy to take your spec and translate it to Notion.
I used to use Notes as my primary app, and recently migrated it to Notion from a technique-accrual perspective.
@@VictorEmnmwtf are you talking about
this is awesome, I always thought BJJ guys wrestling was trash, but it kind of makes sense now if even the collegiate guys are using the counter methods
Exactly. I always thought it was just because BJJ guys sucks too but the problem goes all the way to the top
Thanks for all the info! this is such helpful database
You’re welcome! Thanks for the comment and the support!
It’s crazy how u r trying to analyze the whole thing
This is the way!
At 14:00 I somewhat disagree with the bit where he said you’re going to see more successful double and single leg takedowns than foot sweeps and thus, at the end of the match when you’re tired, you’re probably going to need to shoot in for a double or single leg. As a judoka, I just want to say that there are still better options in that scenario than shooting in for a double or a single. Me and my guys have messed around a lot during and after judo class without our gi on and I would say from personal experience a lot of turn throws are very effective in these situations (and BJJ in general) IF AND ONLY IF it’s executed from the under hook, over hook, Russian tie, or body lock positions. If you can get into one of those four positions, the entire judo playbook is open to you and you won’t really have to worry about anyone taking your back if you fail or getting stuck in a front head lock. Me and my guys have executed pretty much just about every single common technique you’ll see in competition; e.g., o goshi, uchi mata, harai goshi, sumi gaeshi, tani otoshi, and all the foot sweeps and ashi waza techniques can be done quite effectively out of those four positions.
And also, just as a side note, do not just attempt a turn throw with no set up; foot sweeps and ashi waza are very effective at destabilizing your opponent’s base, making him move, breaking his posture and balance, and most importantly, setting up your turn throws.
I wanted to share my experience after watching this video. In my last tournament, I scored first with a takedown in 3 out of 4 matches in the Open class and in my weight division 2 out of 3. It's been a journey from being a pure guard puller with a dangerous closed/knee shield guard to mainly going for takedowns and back takes over the past 1.5 years, with one year of pure wrestling because there was no BJJ school where I was studying.
I've discovered that at the level of local BJJ and wrestling competitions, you don't really need elaborate setups. It's more important to be confident in your ability to recover if you fail, which makes it easier to commit to a takedown when you see the opportunity. This approach has led to much more success in my takedowns.
I achieved this by focusing solely on finishing the takedown, not on setups. I practiced shooting or starting from a failed shot position in every roll (mainly against heavier training partners) after returning to JJ. Before that, I was simply wrestling defensively and scrambling against the wrestlers.
This method might have only worked for me, and I am by no means a sample set for analysis. But I hope my story offers a different viewpoint that you might find interesting and deep. Thank you for your content; it is appreciated!
The Ruotolo brothers whizzer* game is no joke. They smash people to the mat with their overbook pressure.
Yeah exactly
Another thing to note is how sophisticated their leglock defense system is despite training at a gym that is not known for leglocks at all. Pretty crazy.
You are more involved, but I am more impressed by the work you put in and the content you output! 👊🏽
😂🙌🏼
Using foot sweeps, circling behind is the best way to deal with people bigger and stronger. Having someone 50+ pounds sprawl on top of you is not good. What an exceptionally put together video!
Thank you! I am glad you enjoyed it!
Just discovered this, awesome knowledge that you give us bro, cheers from 🇫🇷
Amazing, you are a scholar of BJJ
Thank you very much! I appreciate the support!
Old video but I wonder where Greco falls into this analysis. When you don't have to shoot to demolish an opponent standing up, where does that end up? People say they have to worry about shooting but a greco wrestler literally only has to worry about defending a single leg because of the stance which isn't difficult when you know its the only attack your opponent can hit you with from the standup. Anyway just curious because greco is never talked about in BJJ.
That guy at 13:05 just about got his leg destroyed
😬
This is terrific. Everyone in the comments seems to be adding value as well, and it’s turned into great content along with a great discussion. One thing I’d add is the dichotomy between winning matches and being a crowd pleaser. Meaning, everyone wants to win, but there is a significant percentage of grapplers who are looking to grow the sport into being more palatable for spectators and putting on a show for said spectators. Wrestling, so long as it isn’t just two gorillas exchanging collar ties for 15 minutes, generally makes matches more exciting; which is especially true for people without intricate jiu jitsu knowledge. It seems, though, based on the data, that the type of wrestling exchanges that excite the crowd, tend to end up badly for the grappler who initiates them and tries to be a crowd pleaser. So, how does a grappler reconcile wanting to win the match and using wrestling to please the crowd?
This is the million dollar question. How to be entertaining while keeping yourself safe
i looked for your patreon but couldn't find it
Thanks for reaching out! I have a "community" which is the same thing it is just on Kajabi and not Patreon. It includes access to the discord and will be where the database will be held! Here is the link: limibjj.mykajabi.com/store
Very interesting overview, and I agree that upper body takedowns (throws, foot sweeps, slide by etc.) are better for a specific ruleset like ADCC where getting points from a takedown is almost impossible if defending opponent turtles). Did you do maybe a separate study for overtimes? When there is no guard pull?
My two cents:
- I would say people get caught in guillotines because they don't use setups when going for a takedowns (if you want to be good at wrestling, you need to learn how to setup takedowns) and also, they end up in guard because of that (how many times do top level MMA fighters end in full guard after a takedown, for example Khabib?)
- I would also argue that dog fight, front headlock and turtle also require some sort of takedown initiative (that might require more setup on a higher level), you can't just grab headlock and work from there (e.g. opponent has 2 on 1, how will you get headlock unless you learn how to handfight your way out?)
- Another thing, this is not wrestling and opponents can avoid fighting much more, go to freestyle and 90% of them would be penalized in 15 seconds (so you can't just shoot blindly but need to setup takedowns since opponent is basically running away)
Also, you focused a lot on ADCC (that is big focus by bigger gyms as well like New Wave, B-Team etc...). What about smaller level competitions? E.g. if I score a takedown and opponent defends I might get a point or advantage under AJP rules for example, matches are shorter, not everyone allows heel hook. This analysis is done on the highest level possible, but what about some blue belt that doesn't have to think about heel hooks in the competition and with takedown is leading 2 points?
In ADCC if opponent goes for a takedown you can defend by turtling = 0 points.
Go to some other rules (where most people still compete) and you will get a point or advantage for that (which means, you are winning at that point)...
Damn ! What a fkn video. Database too shiet 😂
Thanks man! Appreciate it 🙌🏼
Are there any good instructionals focused on the dog fight as a wreslting position ?
This is a good question. I am interested to hear some recommendations as well
@@LIMIBJJ Did some more research on the position as a wrestling standpoint. The way wrestlers view this position is between two categories of attack: the whizzer position and the seatbelt position.
The seatbelt is viewed as the main form of entry for the dogfight and the whizzer is the reaction/counter to the seatbelt. This is apparent in jiu jitsu as well and may seem obvious but my point revolves around this statement.
What ultimately gives Kade the advantage in his match was that he has developed a great whizzer control which proved too much for Barch’s seatbelt grip. Kade had the same issue in the match as his seatbelt was countered by Barch's whizzered in the same way.
Having a good whizzer control will always help with countering your opponent's attempt to take you down or sweep you and as Danaher once said the highest percentage of takedowns revolve around defending an opponent's attack, so focusing on this position will probably serve you more than learning the seatbelt.
However I think the dog fight is similar to the 50/50 position where as the person with the most experience will undoubtedly win the exchange so having a good seatbelt game is not a waste of time in fact with the current meta revolving around whizzer control having a system to counter it will make your game much more dangerous.
For those who want to understand this position more, don't refer to it as the dogfight but as the whizzer position and the seatbelt position.