I really like this historical presentation of Taekwondo. Especially episode 2,3 and 5. Did you ever summarize it in a message to Jessy? I'm sure he would listen to what you had to say, but those three episode are 2h in total length which is a lot to ask for someones initial interest.
Thanks for your interest! In connection with the extension of the episodes, it is really hard to satisfy both ends of the spectrum (those with "initial interest" and those that are already quite knowledgeable). I decided to put all the info up front to satisfy the most knowledgeable, who typically have been exposed to partial or slanted versions, to complete their knowledge with lesser know but relevant data. For those with little initial knowledge, I tried to make it as entertaining as possible. But at the end of the day, my intention was to provide serious and detailed info in video format, and sadly there's a cost to be paid in terms of length. About Jesse, I tried to contact him repeatedly before releasing the video and after that, by various means including his Facebook group. I was ignored (or better stated, I have been ignored so far). I don't give up, as I see people that have adopted the flawed Karate-Savate connection due to Jesse's credibility. Hope I end up communicating with Jesse some day.
I agree with you assessment. At least now the information is easier to find for those seeking it out. The history of Taekwondo is quite diluted by miss information so you initiative was good. And I also see the Karate-Savate comments trickle through the internet after that video got uploaded. I can write a summery to Jessie in Swedish, it might cut through the crowd. Can also attach some screenshots from you presentation and leave the link to the videos, if he wants to dive deeper. He recently did a video about Tang Soo Do, and he might have a video about Taekwondo coming up. The interest might be higher now. I hope he finds a good source haha
Thanks a lot@@robinj6997 I would love if you can get Jesse watch it. In general, TKD information is excessively slanted in favor of one group or another, and foreign (non-Korean) sources have been reduced to Karate in a rather simplistic manner. Regards!!!
Dear Maestro, This is the comment I wrote under M.Enkamp video : "As a French citizen, I am happy that French military expeditions are mentioned here as influential in Japanese Karate. But I also wonder how Korean martial arts (KMA) like Taekkyon, may also have its part in it. As a matter of fact, everyone knows how Shotokan Karate had a major influence on the creation of Taekwondo. But, on the way around, those Korean nationals who learned Karate during their forced time in Japan had some prior experience in the KMA. Especially regarding Jump kicks, Savate doesn't have so much but they are more common in North-East Asia. But as for French influence, Japanese would not admit any Korean root in their catalog, the context being so heavily nationalist in the beginning of the 20th century ." To support this, we must of course speak about those Korean individuals who had a prior experience in Korean martial arts before they were sent to Japan during the long period of occupation. But we can also mention the possible technical exchange through the numerous Butokukai / Budokan branches in Korea. There were mainly taught Kendo and Judo, but also Karate, primarily to Japanese citizen, then progressively opened to Korean citizen too. It may have been a very good place to exchange and experiment on kicks. Regarding the kicks themselves, they were already quite numerous and sophisticated in the Korean martial arts in the beginning of the 20th century (in the Taekgyeon or in the Buddhist martial art that will become Seonmudo later, for example), they are more susceptible in my opinion to have inspired Japanese karate than la Savate or le Chausson (even if their influence should not be neglected).
Dear David, thanks a lot for your comment. It is beyond any doubt that Tae Kwon Do originated from Japanese Karate (mainly Shotokan, with other methods in a much lower proportion). That was until the mid 1950s, when a unique Korean way of kicking started to develop with three main factors: (1) the military training which demanded extreme pragmatism for battle, emphasizing contact sparring, (2) that contact sparring was organized using chestguard armors under rules that favored kicking, and (3) Hapkido and TKD black belts exchanged knowledge while in the Army). By from the beginning of the 60s to the mid 70s the Korean kicks were developed, and AFTER THAT they were exported to Hong Kong Kung Fu movies and also adopted in Karate competitions. I don't think that the Korean kicks really existed to the current degree of sophistication before the 1960s. Yes, Taekkyun existed but it had been almost lost and people who had learnt it (such as Ji Han Jae) have pointed its kicks not to be as developed, although indeed they were one of the components that lead to today's kicks. Of course, we may assume that the fact that Ji's teacher was not a high level kicker does not necessarily apply to Taekkyun skills as a whole. Sadly, we will never know. I have been fortunate to take a class of Sonmudo in Korea and I don't thing they had highly developed kicks before the 1950s; actually the Korean Buddhist martial arts have been "revived" in the 20th Century which implies that much of what they was "dead" / had been lost. Of course, it is hard to know and much subject to speculation. Thanks for your interest in these matters, and regards!
Should also mention that kyokushin kicking methods didn't come solely from taking Japanese karate kicks adopted for bogu rules but were significantly influenced by muay thai. Such is partly why the kyokushin round kick, when fully committed, looks like a mixture of the chamber and snap seen in karate and taekwondo and the follow through mechanics of the muay thai round kick. There was also some Korean influence for the odd technique as well. As for the sport karate taking many of its modern kicks from tkd thing you may be right but I'll add that whilst the taekwondo variations in their pure form are seen in some modernised forms of karate as well, modern karate has its own modern kicking methodology which, if you are correct, largely comes from tkd but is distinct due to some modifications. In other words they aren't total carbon copies and tend to combine the more upright posture and other principles you attribute to tkd with the semi circular to fully circular chambering of classical karate. The results vary by style but are often either semi hinged (as opposed to the classical more signficant hinge) or fully straight postured like in tkd. A great example is a lot of American karate kicks which were far more openly a combination of korean and Japanese kicking methods (with some US tweaks) far before the more significant adoption of more tkd like methods became as widespread as in Japanese karate.
As for sanda there are three sources for its kicks- Northern Chinese systems (classical and modern), tkd and muay thai. Its side kick is also a distinct modern development largely and different to the tkd one even if influenced by it. Cung le competed in sanda but isn't a pure representative of sanda as a style (i.e. the wushu sanda that comes from China) and his use of tkd kicks comes mostly not through whatever sanda training he may have had but through his tkd training. Sanda has round kicks closer to tkd and some closer to muay thai but often with modified elements besides more subtle mechanical changes. One of these which applies more to the snappier variation is a greater emphasis on retraction due to the kick catches. The other is the use of the shaft between the shin and the foot (often referred to in sanda as the "ankle") as the surface area as opposed to the instep (tkd) or mid to lower shin (muay thai).
@@finnmiles7311 I agree with your thoughtful comments, you obviously know a lot about this. We could go deeper and deeper into these matters, into further detail. I intended to highlight the Korean "ideology" behind the sport Karate kicks, but this does not exclude the things that you rightly point out. Particularly, I like what you say about Sanda's side kick, the horizontal disposition of the chamber (which I do not recommend due to general martial art structure principles) and other factors. And I insist that Classical TKD has mutated into several different animals. At the end of the day, the important thing is where we intend to go. Knowledge of the past is good only if it helps in our trip forward. Regards!
@@ManuelAdrogue Haha thank you I'm glad my comment didn't come across as being critical as opposed to wanting to just add a few things. Regardless of where one stands on karates modern kicks being largely tkd based or not there's no doubt that Korean martial art kicking has had a profound impact on modern martial art leg fighting methods. Even arts that have very little connection to tkd have been touched by it when it comes to spinning kicks. It's interesting how kicks get modified. Hell another interesting example is how the traditional muay thai round house spawned a westernised baseball bat kick many think mistakes for the thai kick leading to the impression that the thai kick is very wide whilst in reality it actually has a fair amount in common with the tkd roundhouse width wise, in spite of some mechanical changes and lack of the chamber and snap/more dramatic straightening of the leg. This westernised kick seems to largely be a result of over exaggerating the differences between some East Asian derived traditional martial art kicks and the thai kick in its width and swing and therefore making for a wide kick that swings across from the start rather than at the end. Some also think it might be a result of adding elements of the wide old school Japanese karate round kick into the thai kick. Actually another interesting related discussion point I think it would be cool to explore as it relates to your Korean kicking project is what is sometimes called Brazilian muay thai, which instead of a possibly karate influence like heavily westernised/americanised muay thai is instead the result of the hybridisation of taekwondo and muay thai. Traditional muay thai is now more common in Brazil of course but a lot of early muay thai was the result of taekwondo fighters adopting boxing and integrating muay thai until their system became mostly thai based albeit with some kicking elements still influenced by Korean methods.
@@finnmiles7311 You raise interesting points. In connection with the chamber of the round kick, in episode #8 I actually "confess" that although the chamber is very important for beginners, you should gradually dilute the chamber once you are relatively good. The Thai and Korean methods are compatible, so it does not surprise what you are telling me about Brazil. One of my FB contacts, Mr. Camacho, is a Jidokwan TKD old timer who is a central person in Brazilian Muay Thai. However, in my opinion the highest point of Korean Kicking is in the side kick (the weapon that empowers the lightweights against real life violence), but it is not as relevant when two pro fighters are placed in a ring. As a TKD instructor who truly appreciates the "technology" and realism of modern combat sports, I always keep in mind that I teach middle aged people, not combat athletes, but what I teach must work in real life. This posts some differences with the techniques and approach for the ring (just one example: a fighter should tuck his chin forward and keep forearms close to the head, but that is not the ideal standard for someone who must be aware of surroundings and potentially many attackers: you should remain upright, attentive and agile). Well, again thanks for your comments, take care!
Como siempre, excelente el video. Tiene mucho sentido la hipótesis de que las patadas modernas de Karate vengan del TKD clásico. Sobre las patadas chinas, justo la versión que yo aprendí de la forma Shaolin 6 del estilo Shaolin Norteño que aprendieron tanto el maestro Kwong Wing Lam como el maestro Rick Wing, tiene una patada lateral. Con esto no digo que tenga relación o no con la tradición coreana, nomás que es distinto a las patadas que se ven en este video. Dicho esto por lo que vi de Taekkyon hay algunas similitudes con algunas patadas que vi en estilos chinos. Lo que tiene sentido desde la óptica de distintas culturas que llegaron a conclusiones similares. El noreste de China tiene cierta tradición de equitación (seguro relacionada con la gente de las estepas) y de acrobacia, así que quizá ahí hay alguna raíz común de sus respectivas tradiciones combativas. De nuevo, un placer ver estos videos. Los espero con ansias cada semana.
Espectacular el trabajo que está haciendo con esta serie, lamento mucho que sean solo 9, tengo miles de preguntas y curiosidades que ojalá algún día pueda charlar personalmente con usted, felicitaciones y gracias por enriquecer nuestro Taekwon-Do con su gran trabajo de investigación, taekwon!
@@User-rf3iq I think that from a strictly theoretical perspective, it would be possible to "end up with" TKD kicks (or VERY similar) through independent development without being exposed to them previously. BUT I really doubt that it is possible not to be exposed at all to TKD kicks if you are a martial artist during the 2nd half of the 20th century. As shown in Episode 2, the kicks shown in Hong Kong Kung Fu movies were Korean kicks. Those used by the champions of Open North-American Karate tournaments were Taekwondo kicks. So unless you retire into the desert, it is highly unlikely not to have been influenced by the Korean kicks, which ended up being everywhere. Again, here Occam's razor applies and the most plausible explanation is that the karateka adopted the existing Korean Kicks.
@@ManuelAdrogue I agree that TaeKwonDo most likely popularized high kicks, and spin kicks, but if you look at TaeKwonDo itself in the late 50s, like here ua-cam.com/video/0IQyP_Qyxqk/v-deo.html the level of kicking you see in that clip is poor and not very "Korean". So if TaeKwondo kickers evolve, Karate kickers will to, naturally. So I am with you half way... TKD influenced Karate to include more kicks, but they would have looked TKD-like with future generations even if TKD never existed. Thank your for your reply, and keeping a high level of TKD still alive. You have excellent black belts.
Hi Joe. Good question. No and Yes. Let me clarify. If by "sinewave" we understand an amplified up and down motion when performing forms/patterns which is seen in today ITF TKD, the answer is "no". The sinewave as a distinct concept which lead to that current version started to develop in the 1980s. However, there was a "seminal" (seed) of that in the 1960s. And the heart of the sinewave (past and present) is in the push-off against the ground of the supporting foot, which leg (knee) is bent at the moment when the other foot passes by. That bending of the knee works as the shock absorber of a car and is also found with a different emphasis / flavors in karate styles and Taiji, Hsing-yi and Bagua methods of kung fu. So in essence, "yes", it did exist because sinewave is about the "knee spring" (an expression by Gen Choi), and not about the up and down of the head. A final comment: Classical TKD is a term I use to refer to the way most schools practiced TKD during the mid 60s to early 70s, when training was still mostly about real fighting with some sports (contact sparring) component, heavy drilling in basics and tough training. In the last 50 years many good and many bad things have happened in TKD. Mechanical understanding has improved tremendously, but commercialization and standards have had huge negative effects in all TKD formats. I believe that people today that conform to the aforementioned standards may be doing Classical TKD regardless of their affiliation. However, in terms of mechanical understanding it would be foolish not to appreciate the progress that has been achieved. And with all due respect, I have found that the ITF approach to TKD is in general terms closer to that. Regards!
I beg to differ with both you and Jessie. While there is a record of French Savate and Shotokan as derived from Okinawan te, it seems to be forgotten that many schools of martial arts didn't keep a technique guide and training manual. While most of what we know is based upon training middle-class persons, 25:01 and the sons, sometimes daughters, fighting skills- there were too many fights known only to legends. We know that much of the research is developed late 1880s and beyond. We tend to forget artists' conceptions that have been preserved by many cultures. Lucky Riley, 9th Dan
I had an edition of blackbelt or karate illustrated from the 1970's. it had an article on the french karate assoiation. Mentioned wasteachers by regions of France and the instructers ranking. About 40/50 per cent of the instructers had savate certification/ backgrounds. Dominic Valera was especialy good kicker and used a savate style spin sweep. He put those kicks to good use when he attacked the referee's with a flying side kick during the world Karate championships in Los Angeles - LOL
Excelente investigación , muy enriquecedora , reflexionando sobre la postura de cuerpo en la patada circular dollio chagui y lateral iopchagui quizás no estaría mal suponer que el Taekkyon y el Sabate antes del 1900 se conectaron de alguna manera , ya que la profundidad en el uso de la cadera y la rotación del pie de apoyo es casi idéntico, algo que no ví en otras artes, ni siquiera en los comienzos del tkd , cuando su forma de pateo era bastante restringida como la que se observa en el libro KARATE COREANO de Duk Sung Son, felicitaciones por el gran esfuerzo realizado en tu investigación, abrazos.
I'm really happy and have been enjoying watching the videos in the channel. Nontheless, I have to say, though I hate to do so, some things stated in this video are biased, one example of which is that traditional kung fu has no roundhouse kick or back spinning kick. In northern styles including praying mantis and bajiquan have roundhouse kick, which were founded way before the birth of TKD or shotokan karate. Besides, rumor says it that Bok-kyu Choi, one of the members in Sip-palki association, is a bit related when it comes to the contents of the channel, which might explain why there are some biased elements appear in this video, whether intended or not.
Dear KungFu&English, my answers: If by "biased" you mean "unfairly prejudiced", the video is not, I have worked hard to be fair and made my homework. Second, I did not say that traditional KungFu does not have roundhouse or spinning kicks (I own LOTS of very good traditional KF books; Choy Lee Fat does have round kicks for example). BUT those round or backspinning high kicks have not been included in their forms. I love Kung Fu, I have been practicing it for years, it has some skills that are ignored by, or very underdeveloped in TKD. But the Kung Fu kicks in the movies are Korean, I have shown that in Episode 2. I am the type of guy who tends to see the yard of the neighbor more green than mine (instead of boasting of what I have), so I like to admire other's merits and copy to improve. That is why I practice KF. I have been cautious and respectful when talking about other arts (particularly Karate and Kung Fu, which I highly respect). Of course KF kicks were earlier. But they were not developed to the point Koreans developed their kicks. I am actually friend to KF Grandmasters, and they agree on that. Different arts have different strengths. I have absolutely no connection with Choi Bok kyu although I have a friendly relation with Sippalki people in Korea (I don't know what rumors you are talking about, it is totally ridiculous). I will go deeper into history and martial arts connections in the last episode of the series. I am NOT pushing anyone's agenda, not even ITF Taekwon-Do's usual historical statements. The reason why I don't belong to ANY big organization is because my intellectual liberty must not compromised. And the reason why I mentioned KF's kicks showing really talented traditional KF people was simply to kill any potential crazy theory like "well, it is not Savate, it is Northern Kung Fu". I am a seeker of truth, and love to learn. If there is any statement I make that you can render proof to be wrong, please say it. But it is vague and impolite to say I am biased without providing the purported correct info you pretend to have. If you bring old tapes of KF masters kicking differently than what I am saying, I will be the first to admit it. When I first saw Jesse's video, I knew he was wrong. But I took a BIG EFFORT to show the truth and kept my mouth closed until I showed the evidence. That is how martial artists behave. Self restraint of mouth before criticizing and deeds preceding words.
Yeah whats called sports karate today has become more similar to tae kwon do, like really bad tkd by the way in kickboxing in the 90s we used tkd kicks kyokoshin kicks and Muay Thai kick's,the first roumd kick we learned was something between kyokoshin mawashi Geri and muay Thai high kick (it wasn't allowed to kick below the belt.the spin kicks was mostly tkd kick's only wheel kick spinning crescent kick and kicks with diagonally spins came from karate.we had no tkd round kick because it was to linear which didn't fit for plenty of reasons mainly the stance. At advanced classes we learned more round kick's like the thai version and Kawasaki geri connecting with shin and or instep but still kept the mix of the two which we learned as beginner's.same with side kicks we learned like five or sicks,more sidekicks including the side slide teep which is the closet kick in mt to sidekick... Its ridiculous to claim that kickboxing kicks came from one specific sport and only that.kickboxing is kicks from many martial arts mixed with boxing and the stance is tall like in Muay Thai and square like in boxing..it was never just a mix between two sports 😂
So far I really like your series. I hate that you felt the need to dedicate an entire episode to Enkamp's silly clique bait notion about savate. He is youtuber in true form...where lies and half truths secure views, advertising dollars and thusly a "UA-cam paycheck". Do you mention Won Kuk Lee (of Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan) anywhere in your series. As you may know he is credited for establishing the first tang soo do kwan in Korea.
Terry, thanks for your comment. Hope that you continue to like the subsequent episodes! When I heard a knowledgeable TKD exponent mentioning Savate as the source of Karate kicks, I felt compelled to clarify the whole thing. But I am not mad at Jesse (although I would have liked that he takes note of my video), because it was the perfect excuse to be clear on the fact that Karate has "stolen" the Korean kicks. I have included pictures and labels of all Kwan founders, including Lee Won Kuk, in chapters 2 and 9, although I don´t consider them to be particularly relevant in terms of kicking development -maybe Hwang Kee, but not really-. This does not affect my appreciation for their work and the seed they planted. Regards!
In the late 1960's and early 1970's, There was also an excellent Tae Kwon Do / Mu Duk Kwan stylist from Korea named Byong Yu who was an excellent instructor and competitor and every one was impressed about his power in using Tae Kwon Do kicks flying and jumping in the air. He is now in his 80's. Just to let you know that he is as popular in the world as other Tae Kwon Do Grand Masters.
Yes, Roderick, thanks. I know about him. Similar situation with David Moon (Moon Dae Won), pioneer of Mexican Taekwondo. They were some of the pioneers of Korean martial arts in the open style tournament scene in the US, along with the students of Jhoon Rhee. It is impossible to mention all masters, so I appreciate that your comment will hopefully be read by others. Regards
@@ManuelAdrogue John Chung is an exemplary example. Thank You Maestro for your well balanced, unbiased knowledge and history of the Martial Arts, I myself studied the history of Karate Systems and the evolution of the Tae Kwon Do Systems and for sure you are correct on your way or path of sharing them, as I say again with 'no bias and well rounded histories' of your researches, Kudos to You Maestro, now let's create a new style of 'open minded = ITF / WTF/Okinawan/Japanese/Muay Thai/Silat/Wing Chun/ Systems of 'modern Tae Kwon Do'. Lsstly one of Jhoon Rhiee's students as I said in the beginning is John Chung, he has an excerllent video on kicking combinations.
Excelente! No creo puedan quedar dudas después de escuchar tan detallada y documentada teoría acerca de tan interesante and contradictorio tópico. Mis respetos para usted Maestro Adrogue. Gracias por su contribución al conocimiento de la historia de nuestra querida arte marcial!
En mi país ( Cuba) el proceso de adaptación de las patadas de TKD por los practicantes de Karate ocurrió naturalmente con la introducción de TKD a mediados de los años 80. Fui testigo de este proceso y pude observar como algunos Karatekas tuvieron un éxito inmediato en competencias de Karate utilizando la patada semicircular con la pierna delantera en forma de jab a la cara o la patada de giro recto hacia atrás algo nunca visto anteriormente.
Jean frunette was also competing in kickboxing musical arts which was called sports karate until kickboxing became legal all over Europe..my first kickboxing instructing job was at Wolfgang wedde sport's karate it was no difference between Wolfgangs sport's karate and other kickboxing club's at the time only difference was that they used the name karate because kickboxing was illegal when that club was established.. but jean frunette never participated in full contact as far as I know
Jesse documented that episode very well,it wasn't a insertion or opinion that the karate master in Jesse's episode learned savate kick's in the french military in the 1600s the documentation leaves zero to little space for doubts or opinions. Anyways it's very limited how many ways a human body can do simple and effective kick's in glima which is more than thousand years old nordic martial art their is the same kick's as in savate and Muay Thai and many wrestling and weapon moves used in several modern martial arts glima was the Martial art's of the vikings in north Scandinavia which they brought to the Roman empire and Russia trough the rus viking's which is just called varangians in Russia its same as varanger garden in Norwegian That's why some claim that it's not from the norse vikings its varangian, varangian is viking's from North Norway where rurik was from the first king of kievarus it was many styles of Glima just like it's many style's of Muay Thai and Korean martial arts did the nordics including the varangian guard learn kick's from other countries? Probably they did occupy Normandy and became semi intergrated im the french culture and learned the language etc but savate didn't exist as a sport back but Glima existed before the occupational activity by the Norwegians in France. so who knows who learned what from who but Jesse's documentation of the time savate kicks came to Japan and by who and why and how it happened to refute the proof and documentation you need to prove that Jesse's documentation is false made up and establish a motive for doing so what did he has to gain by making fake document's and visual documentation and provide evidence that said kick's didn't exist before Korean Martial art's as tkd isn't very old compared to other Korean martial arts. Did Korean martial arts exist before the norse/Norwegian Martial art's did Eirik jarl steal he's kick's from tkd 😂 did Kun khmer,let wei, bokator and muay boran do the same or are all these martial arts many hundred's of years older than Korean kicking arts? Is a footey not the same as a round kick because they connect with the tip of the shoe which is exactly what shotokan does to only without shoe they connect with the big toe which is crazy to me but is exactly the same as the savate kick its identical there is no such kick in tkd, yes they have round kicks to but it's a lot more linear and connect with the instep its a very different type of side kick which is just more evidence adding on to the absolute proofs of jesse. It's also no kicks in Glima mt lw mb jkd kb kk as far as I know its only karate and savate that has that exact kick,the karate philosophy about the mawashi geri the connect's with the big toe is to connect with a small round point like a hammer but I would never do it without shoe's and with shoes its identical to the savate footey. If you can show me that tkd do the same i would be impressed because I did tkd in my childhood before starting KICKBOXING MY first main instructor was also instructor in tae kwon do and was teaching us the difference between tae kwon do spin kick and kickboxing spin kick's etc after we asked why the round kick was different from tkd. How can you prove which variants are oldest and who did it first.. I think you are just biased and not searching for true knowledge but rather wants to further validate the sport that you are doing.
Its also false that there is no reverse kicks in karate uro means reverse but they are not always the same as the reverse kicks in savate,in savate The reverse kicks is used mostly to establishing the foundation to build kicking combinations.. anyways there's is kicks like turning sidekick and horse kick's in several ancient Martial art's like kamp Glima
Master , based upon my personal point of view kicks are can be shared crossed & integration into this various arts. Even kicks from Shaolin Kung fu is suitable to be in-corperated into Karate, Taekwondo etc..That's my humble opinion
Yes, at the end of the day physics are the same. But there are reasons why kicks "taste" different from style to style, depending on the priorities / choices (power, speed, wearing shoes, using kicks to assist a certain way of fighting with the hands as wing chun, etc) so even the mechanics may be different. In classical TKD we focus on power and speed, in Hapkido is more about hurting (see episode 3 on that). People usually think they can just pick one motion from another martial art into their arsenal. Of course you can do that, but changing the conceptual environment on which that technique was developed will affect and modify that motion. Nothing wrong with that, but it will no longer be what you thought you were "borrowing".
Sports karate is many things,in Norway sports karate was just kickboxing not similar to kickboxing or inspired by kickboxing it was no difference between club's calling themselves sport's karate and clubs calling themselves kickboxing everything was identical i been member in club's with both of those names and started instructing kickboxing in a club called Wolfgang wedde sports karate at age 15. It had nothing to do with traditional karate of any kind and not related to what is called sports karate outside of Northern europe
I didn't know oyama was korean if that's true thanks for the knowledge but because of your previous strawmans i need to Fact check it but believe you until then ❤
You use a lot of straw mans by claiming that jesse said stuff he didn't say then dubunk your own strawman that's very intelectual dishonest.guys read my other book of a comment or the second half of it then watch Jesse's very well documented
Jesse didn't provide any theories in that episode he only documented irrefutable fact's without inserting any opinions or theorries you used way to many strawmams that is totally unrelated to Jesse's words or documentation
Secondly, when comparing the technical aspects you use a drawing from an 1840s Savate manual (that would hardly match a Savate photo from the 1920s ...LOL) to compare to a karate photo from the 1950s 0r 60s. firstly having trained in a several styles of Karate very few could or did a roundhouse kick like that. (the dropping down style with the big lean away, probably started as someones pet technique and you never seen it in sparring ). as for the differences other they are based on the fact that Savate is based on kicking with a shoe or boot on. that is the very nature of savate kicking, so those karate kicks had to be modified for bare-feet. but the important elements of "chambering' the knee high and snapping the kick are identical. it is worth noting that since the rise of Thai boxing that kind of snap kicking has fallen into disfavor and been largly replaced by more "hip kicking' like that seen in Kokoshinkai. As for "classic Korean kicks" there really is no such thing. Tae kwon do did not exist until the 1940s and 50s and was just a name change from the Japanses Karate that had been introduced. it is well document that this process of "Koreafication of karate' was started by Gen. Choi. Early TWD books from the 1960s show little difference from japanses Karate and the greater emphasis on kicks is only starting to develop-as a way to distinguish TKD from its obvious 1950s karate roots. As for Tykwon being the forerunner of TKD, I recently read an academic paper (not martial arts unfounded assertions) that said that Tykwon was probably not really a martial art and that the connection was mostly a false history used to make TKD seem older and more korean. Thus, TKD did not exist before karate developed its kicks so of course it could have no impact on them. And since it too got its kicks from Karate and Karate most likely did copy the French style, then TKD is also imitation French Boxing, with much inferior hand techniques because the French adopted the English Boxing method (as did the Thais).
Seriously man the portion in your video called high kicks for combat is straight out lies exempt from what you said about these kicks didn't exist in Okinawa at the time..
Poor history and Poor research. Firstly, the first French Military mission to Japan was in 1867-68. By this time "Savate' or as the manuals often refereed to it as 'military Chausson' was standard training in the French military, by decree of the emperor Neapolian III. Most french officers and training staff (which these were and not "dipolmats" would have been well versed in Savate. which was well developed and popular by that time. this is nearly 100 years before your 1950s version. French military Savate also included "kata" like drills (of which film can be seen here on YT) and the "sparring' method of most savate at the time was a form of "point fighting" nearly identical to the form adopted by the Japanese.The Next French military mission was from 1872-80 under the new Republic and Savate/boxe Francaise was even more popular and develpoed developed.This was a long mission period in which the French helped run the NCO school of the Japanese Army. They helped in all manor of training for the Japanese Army and the Japanese would have been exposed to Savate for years. It is definately know that some of the French participated in Japanses martial arts, so that kind of training definately happened and was almost certainly exchanged. 3 or 4 of the French advisors are listed as experts in "physical training' and 1 as a "master at arms". That means it is certain these men were trained in militart Savate/Chausson and/or BF. Two other French Military advisors missions followed 1884-89 and 1918-19. The question is not IF the french influenced Japanese martial arts but how much.
Thanks for your answer and the interesting info. The mechanics of Karate kicks between 1930 and 1970 have nothing in common with Savate kicks. That is a fact. And starting on mid-1980s karate kicks started to look like Taekwondo's. That shows the time gap that I point out in the video. There are some documented Karate champions in Europe who received Korean-style training and served as bridge between TKD and sports Karate. My point is which is the source of the Karate kicks. And point fighting was also used in Kendo, which many karate instructors practiced. Please provide with specific information on which karate people were trained by which Savate instructors. The influence of the French in the jump of Japan into modernity is well known (as a lawyer of a Civil-law country, I have known for decades of Japan's adoption of significant legal institutions coming from France). If you can provide with that information you will really be sharing relevant information. But the question is about the origin of sport Karate kicks, not the history of contact between the Japanese and the French.
@@ManuelAdrogue Firstly, since the "contact' between the French and Japanses is very Military based (one mission alone was nearly 10 years long and was the single biggest influence on the Japanses ARMY-not their civil courts) and Savate was a standard part of French military Training, and several French instructors are listed as "physical trainers"..its a little bit like asking which Frenchman showed which japanses how to shoot his rifle...its a little silly to try to be that specific.
@@JohnJohnson-pq4qz I will be courteous, as I believe we should always be, in my response on why my research is neither "poor" nor my question "silly". My research is not "poor" because I have read almost all prestigious authors who have studied the initial years of Karate in Japan. Plenty of books and articles. The video means and nature of this Project does not allow to abound with bibliographical references, but I covered everything relevant to the first decades of Japanese Karate, which as we all know arrived to the main island in the 1920s. So any 19th century contacts may be interesting, but not relevant for karate. Before WWII the karate instructors in Japan were VERY few, and the names of the students of Funakoshi, Mabuni and Toyama are well documented, as well as which were their sources. Although there is a lot of very detailed material on them, there has NEVER been a single author stating that Savate influenced their Karate. The question of "who were the Japanese Karate instructors who learnt Savate" is not silly. Why did karate ignore all types of "reverse" kicks that existed in Savate (now called ura mawashi, and ura Mikazuki) until several decades after the purported connection with Savate, and exactly when they were being popularized by Taekwondo? The question is not "silly", since we know the names of those that were in the forefront of karate development and much of their life (it was just 80 years ago!!!) so some precision on that is indeed possible to go beyond mere generalizations. The question is not silly, we simply cannot answer it. And your rifle example is bad, because if a Japanese later happened to become a famous shooting expert, I am more than sure that at the very least someone would have said "he learnt in the Army trained by a French guy". You think my research is poor because I did not acknowledge things that YOU consider relevant, but you fail to provide what is indeed relevant to my thesis: conducive and precise facts. We can disagree, but since you do not know how deep my research has been ON MARTIAL ART HISTORY, it is unduly offensive to consider my work poor or my questions silly. If your standards are higher and your questions smarter, my congratulations. I have proven to be educated with Jesse Sensei (whom I have in high esteem), as I have been with you. Maybe I do not hold your "research" standards (I really don't know), but I do have my politeness standards. As Saint Paul says, in the end there will come a time when our knowledge ceases to exist, but then, only love will remain. As much as I appreciate knowledge, I do know what is most important. My best wishes to you and our common friend Sanko.
@@ManuelAdrogue But of course no response to the fact that there are no 'classical kicks of" TKD which , as I pointed out, is simply imitation karate. What the public should know is TkD has a history of, how shall we say it politely, disingenuousness. From the reverend Moon scandal, to the numerous corruption scandals of the governing bodies based in Korea going back to at least the 80s. The latest one coming out in 2022 about bribery to get Olympic recognition. The fake history of TKD that the Korean government has pushed, including the fake history of Tykwon, the phony rank scandals of TKD instructors all over the world are something all honest martial artist have always found distasteful. And now you want to make up a fake history of kicks! I for one will not tolerate more fake history coming from a rather fake martial art. If you look at Mas Oyama's books from the late 1960s (of which i have one on my shelf) all the kicks you describe are in there. Back kicks, jump kicks, wheel kicks etc. There is nothing original in TKD, it is, as clearly documented, karate which the Koreans have spent years lying about and making up fake history, you seem to be keeping that tradition alive and well. with a distasteful and silly fake history of kicking now.
@@JohnJohnson-pq4qz it is evident that you dos not watch my prior Episodes. I define Classical kicks as those used in 1970s TKD. You got confused by the name, although I was very clear on the first episodes, particular y 2 and 3. No fake history at all, just read the first four chapters of the book before making wrong conclusions. I hope you really do that and then come back. You Will understand how unfair You have been by critizing episode 5 completely misunderstanding before watching
Sir, this video of yours deserves as much views as the Karate Nerd's clickbait video. I think your investigation makes a lot more than that youtuber.
I really like this historical presentation of Taekwondo. Especially episode 2,3 and 5. Did you ever summarize it in a message to Jessy? I'm sure he would listen to what you had to say, but those three episode are 2h in total length which is a lot to ask for someones initial interest.
Thanks for your interest! In connection with the extension of the episodes, it is really hard to satisfy both ends of the spectrum (those with "initial interest" and those that are already quite knowledgeable). I decided to put all the info up front to satisfy the most knowledgeable, who typically have been exposed to partial or slanted versions, to complete their knowledge with lesser know but relevant data. For those with little initial knowledge, I tried to make it as entertaining as possible. But at the end of the day, my intention was to provide serious and detailed info in video format, and sadly there's a cost to be paid in terms of length. About Jesse, I tried to contact him repeatedly before releasing the video and after that, by various means including his Facebook group. I was ignored (or better stated, I have been ignored so far). I don't give up, as I see people that have adopted the flawed Karate-Savate connection due to Jesse's credibility. Hope I end up communicating with Jesse some day.
I agree with you assessment. At least now the information is easier to find for those seeking it out. The history of Taekwondo is quite diluted by miss information so you initiative was good. And I also see the Karate-Savate comments trickle through the internet after that video got uploaded.
I can write a summery to Jessie in Swedish, it might cut through the crowd. Can also attach some screenshots from you presentation and leave the link to the videos, if he wants to dive deeper. He recently did a video about Tang Soo Do, and he might have a video about Taekwondo coming up. The interest might be higher now. I hope he finds a good source haha
Thanks a lot@@robinj6997 I would love if you can get Jesse watch it. In general, TKD information is excessively slanted in favor of one group or another, and foreign (non-Korean) sources have been reduced to Karate in a rather simplistic manner. Regards!!!
Impressive research and delivery. Thank you so much Maestro!
I've been arguing this too but no one seems to care 😢
Gran trabajo de investigación... Resulta interesante el origen y la evolución de la artes marciales desde su origen hasta el día de hoy.
That was a lovely video, my deepest congratulations. Keep on doing the good work! ❤💪🥋 ¡Saludos!
Thanks a lot for your feedback! I hope you have watched the other episodes of the Korean Kicking Project! Saludos!
Dear Maestro,
This is the comment I wrote under M.Enkamp video :
"As a French citizen, I am happy that French military expeditions are mentioned here as influential in Japanese Karate. But I also wonder how Korean martial arts (KMA) like Taekkyon, may also have its part in it. As a matter of fact, everyone knows how Shotokan Karate had a major influence on the creation of Taekwondo. But, on the way around, those Korean nationals who learned Karate during their forced time in Japan had some prior experience in the KMA. Especially regarding Jump kicks, Savate doesn't have so much but they are more common in North-East Asia. But as for French influence, Japanese would not admit any Korean root in their catalog, the context being so heavily nationalist in the beginning of the 20th century ."
To support this, we must of course speak about those Korean individuals who had a prior experience in Korean martial arts before they were sent to Japan during the long period of occupation. But we can also mention the possible technical exchange through the numerous Butokukai / Budokan branches in Korea. There were mainly taught Kendo and Judo, but also Karate, primarily to Japanese citizen, then progressively opened to Korean citizen too. It may have been a very good place to exchange and experiment on kicks.
Regarding the kicks themselves, they were already quite numerous and sophisticated in the Korean martial arts in the beginning of the 20th century (in the Taekgyeon or in the Buddhist martial art that will become Seonmudo later, for example), they are more susceptible in my opinion to have inspired Japanese karate than la Savate or le Chausson (even if their influence should not be neglected).
Dear David, thanks a lot for your comment. It is beyond any doubt that Tae Kwon Do originated from Japanese Karate (mainly Shotokan, with other methods in a much lower proportion). That was until the mid 1950s, when a unique Korean way of kicking started to develop with three main factors: (1) the military training which demanded extreme pragmatism for battle, emphasizing contact sparring, (2) that contact sparring was organized using chestguard armors under rules that favored kicking, and (3) Hapkido and TKD black belts exchanged knowledge while in the Army). By from the beginning of the 60s to the mid 70s the Korean kicks were developed, and AFTER THAT they were exported to Hong Kong Kung Fu movies and also adopted in Karate competitions. I don't think that the Korean kicks really existed to the current degree of sophistication before the 1960s. Yes, Taekkyun existed but it had been almost lost and people who had learnt it (such as Ji Han Jae) have pointed its kicks not to be as developed, although indeed they were one of the components that lead to today's kicks. Of course, we may assume that the fact that Ji's teacher was not a high level kicker does not necessarily apply to Taekkyun skills as a whole. Sadly, we will never know. I have been fortunate to take a class of Sonmudo in Korea and I don't thing they had highly developed kicks before the 1950s; actually the Korean Buddhist martial arts have been "revived" in the 20th Century which implies that much of what they was "dead" / had been lost. Of course, it is hard to know and much subject to speculation. Thanks for your interest in these matters, and regards!
thank you for making that distinction about SPORT karate. Holy crap.
Great informational background.
Should also mention that kyokushin kicking methods didn't come solely from taking Japanese karate kicks adopted for bogu rules but were significantly influenced by muay thai. Such is partly why the kyokushin round kick, when fully committed, looks like a mixture of the chamber and snap seen in karate and taekwondo and the follow through mechanics of the muay thai round kick. There was also some Korean influence for the odd technique as well.
As for the sport karate taking many of its modern kicks from tkd thing you may be right but I'll add that whilst the taekwondo variations in their pure form are seen in some modernised forms of karate as well, modern karate has its own modern kicking methodology which, if you are correct, largely comes from tkd but is distinct due to some modifications. In other words they aren't total carbon copies and tend to combine the more upright posture and other principles you attribute to tkd with the semi circular to fully circular chambering of classical karate. The results vary by style but are often either semi hinged (as opposed to the classical more signficant hinge) or fully straight postured like in tkd. A great example is a lot of American karate kicks which were far more openly a combination of korean and Japanese kicking methods (with some US tweaks) far before the more significant adoption of more tkd like methods became as widespread as in Japanese karate.
As for sanda there are three sources for its kicks- Northern Chinese systems (classical and modern), tkd and muay thai. Its side kick is also a distinct modern development largely and different to the tkd one even if influenced by it.
Cung le competed in sanda but isn't a pure representative of sanda as a style (i.e. the wushu sanda that comes from China) and his use of tkd kicks comes mostly
not through whatever sanda training he may have had but through his tkd training.
Sanda has round kicks closer to tkd and some closer to muay thai but often with modified elements besides more subtle mechanical changes. One of these which applies more to the snappier variation is a greater emphasis on retraction due to the kick catches. The other is the use of the shaft between the shin and the foot (often referred to in sanda as the "ankle") as the surface area as opposed to the instep (tkd) or mid to lower shin (muay thai).
@@finnmiles7311 I agree with your thoughtful comments, you obviously know a lot about this. We could go deeper and deeper into these matters, into further detail. I intended to highlight the Korean "ideology" behind the sport Karate kicks, but this does not exclude the things that you rightly point out. Particularly, I like what you say about Sanda's side kick, the horizontal disposition of the chamber (which I do not recommend due to general martial art structure principles) and other factors. And I insist that Classical TKD has mutated into several different animals. At the end of the day, the important thing is where we intend to go. Knowledge of the past is good only if it helps in our trip forward. Regards!
@@ManuelAdrogue Haha thank you I'm glad my comment didn't come across as being critical as opposed to wanting to just add a few things. Regardless of where one stands on karates modern kicks being largely tkd based or not there's no doubt that Korean martial art kicking has had a profound impact on modern martial art leg fighting methods. Even arts that have very little connection to tkd have been touched by it when it comes to spinning kicks. It's interesting how kicks get modified. Hell another interesting example is how the traditional muay thai round house spawned a westernised baseball bat kick many think mistakes for the thai kick leading to the impression that the thai kick is very wide whilst in reality it actually has a fair amount in common with the tkd roundhouse width wise, in spite of some mechanical changes and lack of the chamber and snap/more dramatic straightening of the leg.
This westernised kick seems to largely be a result of over exaggerating the differences between some East Asian derived traditional martial art kicks and the thai kick in its width and swing and therefore making for a wide kick that swings across from the start rather than at the end. Some also think it might be a result of adding elements of the wide old school Japanese karate round kick into the thai kick.
Actually another interesting related discussion point I think it would be cool to explore as it relates to your Korean kicking project is what is sometimes called Brazilian muay thai, which instead of a possibly karate influence like heavily westernised/americanised muay thai is instead the result of the hybridisation of taekwondo and muay thai. Traditional muay thai is now more common in Brazil of course but a lot of early muay thai was the result of taekwondo fighters adopting boxing and integrating muay thai until their system became mostly thai based albeit with some kicking elements still influenced by Korean methods.
@@finnmiles7311 You raise interesting points. In connection with the chamber of the round kick, in episode #8 I actually "confess" that although the chamber is very important for beginners, you should gradually dilute the chamber once you are relatively good. The Thai and Korean methods are compatible, so it does not surprise what you are telling me about Brazil. One of my FB contacts, Mr. Camacho, is a Jidokwan TKD old timer who is a central person in Brazilian Muay Thai. However, in my opinion the highest point of Korean Kicking is in the side kick (the weapon that empowers the lightweights against real life violence), but it is not as relevant when two pro fighters are placed in a ring. As a TKD instructor who truly appreciates the "technology" and realism of modern combat sports, I always keep in mind that I teach middle aged people, not combat athletes, but what I teach must work in real life. This posts some differences with the techniques and approach for the ring (just one example: a fighter should tuck his chin forward and keep forearms close to the head, but that is not the ideal standard for someone who must be aware of surroundings and potentially many attackers: you should remain upright, attentive and agile). Well, again thanks for your comments, take care!
And the point of this video is…??? 🤷🏼
Excelente, maestro! Cada episodio! Espero ansioso la nueva entrega. Muchas gracias por compartir sus conocimientos 🙏
Gracias Alejandro, saludos
Como siempre, excelente el video. Tiene mucho sentido la hipótesis de que las patadas modernas de Karate vengan del TKD clásico. Sobre las patadas chinas, justo la versión que yo aprendí de la forma Shaolin 6 del estilo Shaolin Norteño que aprendieron tanto el maestro Kwong Wing Lam como el maestro Rick Wing, tiene una patada lateral. Con esto no digo que tenga relación o no con la tradición coreana, nomás que es distinto a las patadas que se ven en este video. Dicho esto por lo que vi de Taekkyon hay algunas similitudes con algunas patadas que vi en estilos chinos. Lo que tiene sentido desde la óptica de distintas culturas que llegaron a conclusiones similares. El noreste de China tiene cierta tradición de equitación (seguro relacionada con la gente de las estepas) y de acrobacia, así que quizá ahí hay alguna raíz común de sus respectivas tradiciones combativas. De nuevo, un placer ver estos videos. Los espero con ansias cada semana.
Espectacular el trabajo que está haciendo con esta serie, lamento mucho que sean solo 9, tengo miles de preguntas y curiosidades que ojalá algún día pueda charlar personalmente con usted, felicitaciones y gracias por enriquecer nuestro Taekwon-Do con su gran trabajo de investigación, taekwon!
Hola May, gracias por tu apoyo, espero que algún día se de la oportunidad para practicar juntos y también hablar. Saludos!
@@ManuelAdrogue Isn't it posible that WKF karatekas simply improved flexibility and that TaeKwondo kicks is what you end up with?:)
@@User-rf3iq I think that from a strictly theoretical perspective, it would be possible to "end up with" TKD kicks (or VERY similar) through independent development without being exposed to them previously. BUT I really doubt that it is possible not to be exposed at all to TKD kicks if you are a martial artist during the 2nd half of the 20th century. As shown in Episode 2, the kicks shown in Hong Kong Kung Fu movies were Korean kicks. Those used by the champions of Open North-American Karate tournaments were Taekwondo kicks. So unless you retire into the desert, it is highly unlikely not to have been influenced by the Korean kicks, which ended up being everywhere. Again, here Occam's razor applies and the most plausible explanation is that the karateka adopted the existing Korean Kicks.
@@ManuelAdrogue I agree that TaeKwonDo most likely popularized high kicks, and spin kicks, but if you look at TaeKwonDo itself in the late 50s, like here ua-cam.com/video/0IQyP_Qyxqk/v-deo.html
the level of kicking you see in that clip is poor and not very "Korean". So if TaeKwondo kickers evolve, Karate kickers will to, naturally. So I am with you half way... TKD influenced Karate to include more kicks, but they would have looked TKD-like with future generations even if TKD never existed. Thank your for your reply, and keeping a high level of TKD still alive. You have excellent black belts.
Muito bom o episódio. Parabéns Master.
Gracias por otro excelente episodio Maestro.
Felicitaciones Maestro Adrogue .Interesante contenido !! Un fuerte abrazo
Sir, was there sighn wave in classic Tae Kwon Do?
Hi Joe. Good question. No and Yes. Let me clarify. If by "sinewave" we understand an amplified up and down motion when performing forms/patterns which is seen in today ITF TKD, the answer is "no". The sinewave as a distinct concept which lead to that current version started to develop in the 1980s. However, there was a "seminal" (seed) of that in the 1960s. And the heart of the sinewave (past and present) is in the push-off against the ground of the supporting foot, which leg (knee) is bent at the moment when the other foot passes by. That bending of the knee works as the shock absorber of a car and is also found with a different emphasis / flavors in karate styles and Taiji, Hsing-yi and Bagua methods of kung fu. So in essence, "yes", it did exist because sinewave is about the "knee spring" (an expression by Gen Choi), and not about the up and down of the head. A final comment: Classical TKD is a term I use to refer to the way most schools practiced TKD during the mid 60s to early 70s, when training was still mostly about real fighting with some sports (contact sparring) component, heavy drilling in basics and tough training. In the last 50 years many good and many bad things have happened in TKD. Mechanical understanding has improved tremendously, but commercialization and standards have had huge negative effects in all TKD formats. I believe that people today that conform to the aforementioned standards may be doing Classical TKD regardless of their affiliation. However, in terms of mechanical understanding it would be foolish not to appreciate the progress that has been achieved. And with all due respect, I have found that the ITF approach to TKD is in general terms closer to that. Regards!
I beg to differ with both you and Jessie. While there is a record of French Savate and Shotokan as derived from Okinawan te, it seems to be forgotten that many schools of martial arts didn't keep a technique guide and training manual. While most of what we know is based upon training middle-class persons, 25:01 and the sons, sometimes daughters, fighting skills- there were too many fights known only to legends. We know that much of the research is developed late 1880s and beyond. We tend to forget artists' conceptions that have been preserved by many cultures.
Lucky Riley, 9th Dan
I had an edition of blackbelt or karate illustrated from the 1970's. it had an article on the french karate assoiation. Mentioned wasteachers by regions of France and the instructers ranking. About 40/50 per cent of the instructers had savate certification/ backgrounds.
Dominic Valera was especialy good kicker and used a savate style spin sweep.
He put those kicks to good use when he attacked the referee's with a flying side kick during the world Karate championships in Los Angeles - LOL
Excelente, gran trabajo, se agradece.
Excelente investigación , muy enriquecedora , reflexionando sobre la postura de cuerpo en la patada circular dollio chagui y lateral iopchagui quizás no estaría mal suponer que el Taekkyon y el Sabate antes del 1900 se conectaron de alguna manera , ya que la profundidad en el uso de la cadera y la rotación del pie de apoyo es casi idéntico, algo que no ví en otras artes, ni siquiera en los comienzos del tkd , cuando su forma de pateo era bastante restringida como la que se observa en el libro KARATE COREANO de Duk Sung Son, felicitaciones por el gran esfuerzo realizado en tu investigación, abrazos.
I'm really happy and have been enjoying watching the videos in the channel. Nontheless, I have to say, though I hate to do so, some things stated in this video are biased, one example of which is that traditional kung fu has no roundhouse kick or back spinning kick. In northern styles including praying mantis and bajiquan have roundhouse kick, which were founded way before the birth of TKD or shotokan karate.
Besides, rumor says it that Bok-kyu Choi, one of the members in Sip-palki association, is a bit related when it comes to the contents of the channel, which might explain why there are some biased elements appear in this video, whether intended or not.
Dear KungFu&English, my answers: If by "biased" you mean "unfairly prejudiced", the video is not, I have worked hard to be fair and made my homework. Second, I did not say that traditional KungFu does not have roundhouse or spinning kicks (I own LOTS of very good traditional KF books; Choy Lee Fat does have round kicks for example). BUT those round or backspinning high kicks have not been included in their forms. I love Kung Fu, I have been practicing it for years, it has some skills that are ignored by, or very underdeveloped in TKD. But the Kung Fu kicks in the movies are Korean, I have shown that in Episode 2. I am the type of guy who tends to see the yard of the neighbor more green than mine (instead of boasting of what I have), so I like to admire other's merits and copy to improve. That is why I practice KF. I have been cautious and respectful when talking about other arts (particularly Karate and Kung Fu, which I highly respect). Of course KF kicks were earlier. But they were not developed to the point Koreans developed their kicks. I am actually friend to KF Grandmasters, and they agree on that. Different arts have different strengths. I have absolutely no connection with Choi Bok kyu although I have a friendly relation with Sippalki people in Korea (I don't know what rumors you are talking about, it is totally ridiculous). I will go deeper into history and martial arts connections in the last episode of the series. I am NOT pushing anyone's agenda, not even ITF Taekwon-Do's usual historical statements. The reason why I don't belong to ANY big organization is because my intellectual liberty must not compromised. And the reason why I mentioned KF's kicks showing really talented traditional KF people was simply to kill any potential crazy theory like "well, it is not Savate, it is Northern Kung Fu". I am a seeker of truth, and love to learn. If there is any statement I make that you can render proof to be wrong, please say it. But it is vague and impolite to say I am biased without providing the purported correct info you pretend to have. If you bring old tapes of KF masters kicking differently than what I am saying, I will be the first to admit it. When I first saw Jesse's video, I knew he was wrong. But I took a BIG EFFORT to show the truth and kept my mouth closed until I showed the evidence. That is how martial artists behave. Self restraint of mouth before criticizing and deeds preceding words.
Yeah whats called sports karate today has become more similar to tae kwon do, like really bad tkd by the way in kickboxing in the 90s we used tkd kicks kyokoshin kicks and Muay Thai kick's,the first roumd kick we learned was something between kyokoshin mawashi Geri and muay Thai high kick (it wasn't allowed to kick below the belt.the spin kicks was mostly tkd kick's only wheel kick spinning crescent kick and kicks with diagonally spins came from karate.we had no tkd round kick because it was to linear which didn't fit for plenty of reasons mainly the stance.
At advanced classes we learned more round kick's like the thai version and Kawasaki geri connecting with shin and or instep but still kept the mix of the two which we learned as beginner's.same with side kicks we learned like five or sicks,more sidekicks including the side slide teep which is the closet kick in mt to sidekick... Its ridiculous to claim that kickboxing kicks came from one specific sport and only that.kickboxing is kicks from many martial arts mixed with boxing and the stance is tall like in Muay Thai and square like in boxing..it was never just a mix between two sports 😂
So far I really like your series. I hate that you felt the need to dedicate an entire episode to Enkamp's silly clique bait notion about savate. He is youtuber in true form...where lies and half truths secure views, advertising dollars and thusly a "UA-cam paycheck". Do you mention Won Kuk Lee (of Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan) anywhere in your series. As you may know he is credited for establishing the first tang soo do kwan in Korea.
Terry, thanks for your comment. Hope that you continue to like the subsequent episodes! When I heard a knowledgeable TKD exponent mentioning Savate as the source of Karate kicks, I felt compelled to clarify the whole thing. But I am not mad at Jesse (although I would have liked that he takes note of my video), because it was the perfect excuse to be clear on the fact that Karate has "stolen" the Korean kicks. I have included pictures and labels of all Kwan founders, including Lee Won Kuk, in chapters 2 and 9, although I don´t consider them to be particularly relevant in terms of kicking development -maybe Hwang Kee, but not really-. This does not affect my appreciation for their work and the seed they planted. Regards!
In the late 1960's and early 1970's, There was also an excellent Tae Kwon Do / Mu Duk Kwan stylist from Korea named Byong Yu who was an excellent instructor and competitor and every one was impressed about his power in using Tae Kwon Do kicks flying and jumping in the air. He is now in his 80's. Just to let you know that he is as popular in the world as other Tae Kwon Do Grand Masters.
Yes, Roderick, thanks. I know about him. Similar situation with David Moon (Moon Dae Won), pioneer of Mexican Taekwondo. They were some of the pioneers of Korean martial arts in the open style tournament scene in the US, along with the students of Jhoon Rhee. It is impossible to mention all masters, so I appreciate that your comment will hopefully be read by others. Regards
@@ManuelAdrogue John Chung is an exemplary example. Thank You Maestro for your well balanced, unbiased knowledge and history of the Martial Arts, I myself studied the history of Karate Systems and the evolution of the Tae Kwon Do Systems and for sure you are correct on your way or path of sharing them, as I say again with 'no bias and well rounded histories' of your researches, Kudos to You Maestro, now let's create a new style of 'open minded = ITF / WTF/Okinawan/Japanese/Muay Thai/Silat/Wing Chun/ Systems of 'modern Tae Kwon Do'. Lsstly one of Jhoon Rhiee's students as I said in the beginning is John Chung, he has an excerllent video on kicking combinations.
Excelente! No creo puedan quedar dudas después de escuchar tan detallada y documentada teoría acerca de tan interesante and contradictorio tópico. Mis respetos para usted Maestro Adrogue. Gracias por su contribución al conocimiento de la historia de nuestra querida arte marcial!
En mi país ( Cuba) el proceso de adaptación de las patadas de TKD por los practicantes de Karate ocurrió naturalmente con la introducción de TKD a mediados de los años 80. Fui testigo de este proceso y pude observar como algunos Karatekas tuvieron un éxito inmediato en competencias de Karate utilizando la patada semicircular con la pierna delantera en forma de jab a la cara o la patada de giro recto hacia atrás algo nunca visto anteriormente.
Jean frunette was also competing in kickboxing musical arts which was called sports karate until kickboxing became legal all over Europe..my first kickboxing instructing job was at Wolfgang wedde sport's karate it was no difference between Wolfgangs sport's karate and other kickboxing club's at the time only difference was that they used the name karate because kickboxing was illegal when that club was established.. but jean frunette never participated in full contact as far as I know
Jesse documented that episode very well,it wasn't a insertion or opinion that the karate master in Jesse's episode learned savate kick's in the french military in the 1600s the documentation leaves zero to little space for doubts or opinions. Anyways it's very limited how many ways a human body can do simple and effective kick's in glima which is more than thousand years old nordic martial art their is the same kick's as in savate and Muay Thai and many wrestling and weapon moves used in several modern martial arts glima was the Martial art's of the vikings in north Scandinavia which they brought to the Roman empire and Russia trough the rus viking's which is just called varangians in Russia its same as varanger garden in Norwegian That's why some claim that it's not from the norse vikings its varangian, varangian is viking's from North Norway where rurik was from the first king of kievarus it was many styles of Glima just like it's many style's of Muay Thai and Korean martial arts did the nordics including the varangian guard learn kick's from other countries? Probably they did occupy Normandy and became semi intergrated im the french culture and learned the language etc but savate didn't exist as a sport back but Glima existed before the occupational activity by the Norwegians in France. so who knows who learned what from who but Jesse's documentation of the time savate kicks came to Japan and by who and why and how it happened to refute the proof and documentation you need to prove that Jesse's documentation is false made up and establish a motive for doing so what did he has to gain by making fake document's and visual documentation and provide evidence that said kick's didn't exist before Korean Martial art's as tkd isn't very old compared to other Korean martial arts.
Did Korean martial arts exist before the norse/Norwegian Martial art's did Eirik jarl steal he's kick's from tkd 😂 did Kun khmer,let wei, bokator and muay boran do the same or are all these martial arts many hundred's of years older than Korean kicking arts?
Is a footey not the same as a round kick because they connect with the tip of the shoe which is exactly what shotokan does to only without shoe they connect with the big toe which is crazy to me but is exactly the same as the savate kick its identical there is no such kick in tkd, yes they have round kicks to but it's a lot more linear and connect with the instep its a very different type of side kick which is just more evidence adding on to the absolute proofs of jesse.
It's also no kicks in Glima mt lw mb jkd kb kk as far as I know its only karate and savate that has that exact kick,the karate philosophy about the mawashi geri the connect's with the big toe is to connect with a small round point like a hammer but I would never do it without shoe's and with shoes its identical to the savate footey. If you can show me that tkd do the same i would be impressed because I did tkd in my childhood before starting KICKBOXING
MY first main instructor was also instructor in tae kwon do and was teaching us the difference between tae kwon do spin kick and kickboxing spin kick's etc after we asked why the round kick was different from tkd. How can you prove which variants are oldest and who did it first..
I think you are just biased and not searching for true knowledge but rather wants to further validate the sport that you are doing.
Its also false that there is no reverse kicks in karate uro means reverse but they are not always the same as the reverse kicks in savate,in savate The reverse kicks is used mostly to establishing the foundation to build kicking combinations.. anyways there's is kicks like turning sidekick and horse kick's in several ancient Martial art's like kamp Glima
Master , based upon my personal point of view kicks are can be shared crossed & integration into this various arts. Even kicks from Shaolin Kung fu is suitable to be in-corperated into Karate, Taekwondo etc..That's my humble opinion
Yes, at the end of the day physics are the same. But there are reasons why kicks "taste" different from style to style, depending on the priorities / choices (power, speed, wearing shoes, using kicks to assist a certain way of fighting with the hands as wing chun, etc) so even the mechanics may be different. In classical TKD we focus on power and speed, in Hapkido is more about hurting (see episode 3 on that). People usually think they can just pick one motion from another martial art into their arsenal. Of course you can do that, but changing the conceptual environment on which that technique was developed will affect and modify that motion. Nothing wrong with that, but it will no longer be what you thought you were "borrowing".
Sports karate is many things,in Norway sports karate was just kickboxing not similar to kickboxing or inspired by kickboxing it was no difference between club's calling themselves sport's karate and clubs calling themselves kickboxing everything was identical i been member in club's with both of those names and started instructing kickboxing in a club called Wolfgang wedde sports karate at age 15.
It had nothing to do with traditional karate of any kind and not related to what is called sports karate outside of Northern europe
Muay thai doesn't connect with the instep they connect with the shin kickboxing does both..why claim stuff when you don't know?
Good stuff !
❤
I didn't know oyama was korean if that's true thanks for the knowledge but because of your previous strawmans i need to Fact check it but believe you until then ❤
You use a lot of straw mans by claiming that jesse said stuff he didn't say then dubunk your own strawman that's very intelectual dishonest.guys read my other book of a comment or the second half of it then watch Jesse's very well documented
Jesse didn't provide any theories in that episode he only documented irrefutable fact's without inserting any opinions or theorries you used way to many strawmams that is totally unrelated to Jesse's words or documentation
Secondly, when comparing the technical aspects you use a drawing from an 1840s Savate manual (that would hardly match a Savate photo from the 1920s ...LOL) to compare to a karate photo from the 1950s 0r 60s. firstly having trained in a several styles of Karate very few could or did a roundhouse kick like that. (the dropping down style with the big lean away, probably started as someones pet technique and you never seen it in sparring ). as for the differences other they are based on the fact that Savate is based on kicking with a shoe or boot on. that is the very nature of savate kicking, so those karate kicks had to be modified for bare-feet. but the important elements of "chambering' the knee high and snapping the kick are identical. it is worth noting that since the rise of Thai boxing that kind of snap kicking has fallen into disfavor and been largly replaced by more "hip kicking' like that seen in Kokoshinkai. As for "classic Korean kicks" there really is no such thing. Tae kwon do did not exist until the 1940s and 50s and was just a name change from the Japanses Karate that had been introduced. it is well document that this process of "Koreafication of karate' was started by Gen. Choi. Early TWD books from the 1960s show little difference from japanses Karate and the greater emphasis on kicks is only starting to develop-as a way to distinguish TKD from its obvious 1950s karate roots. As for Tykwon being the forerunner of TKD, I recently read an academic paper (not martial arts unfounded assertions) that said that Tykwon was probably not really a martial art and that the connection was mostly a false history used to make TKD seem older and more korean. Thus, TKD did not exist before karate developed its kicks so of course it could have no impact on them. And since it too got its kicks from Karate and Karate most likely did copy the French style, then TKD is also imitation French Boxing, with much inferior hand techniques because the French adopted the English Boxing method (as did the Thais).
Seriously man the portion in your video called high kicks for combat is straight out lies exempt from what you said about these kicks didn't exist in Okinawa at the time..
SAVATE BOOKS show spin hook (reverse tournet I think) in the 1830's.............
Poor history and Poor research. Firstly, the first French Military mission to Japan was in 1867-68. By this time "Savate' or as the manuals often refereed to it as 'military Chausson' was standard training in the French military, by decree of the emperor Neapolian III. Most french officers and training staff (which these were and not "dipolmats" would have been well versed in Savate. which was well developed and popular by that time. this is nearly 100 years before your 1950s version. French military Savate also included "kata" like drills (of which film can be seen here on YT) and the "sparring' method of most savate at the time was a form of "point fighting" nearly identical to the form adopted by the Japanese.The Next French military mission was from 1872-80 under the new Republic and Savate/boxe Francaise was even more popular and develpoed developed.This was a long mission period in which the French helped run the NCO school of the Japanese Army. They helped in all manor of training for the Japanese Army and the Japanese would have been exposed to Savate for years. It is definately know that some of the French participated in Japanses martial arts, so that kind of training definately happened and was almost certainly exchanged. 3 or 4 of the French advisors are listed as experts in "physical training' and 1 as a "master at arms". That means it is certain these men were trained in militart Savate/Chausson and/or BF. Two other French Military advisors missions followed 1884-89 and 1918-19. The question is not IF the french influenced Japanese martial arts but how much.
Thanks for your answer and the interesting info. The mechanics of Karate kicks between 1930 and 1970 have nothing in common with Savate kicks. That is a fact. And starting on mid-1980s karate kicks started to look like Taekwondo's. That shows the time gap that I point out in the video. There are some documented Karate champions in Europe who received Korean-style training and served as bridge between TKD and sports Karate. My point is which is the source of the Karate kicks. And point fighting was also used in Kendo, which many karate instructors practiced. Please provide with specific information on which karate people were trained by which Savate instructors. The influence of the French in the jump of Japan into modernity is well known (as a lawyer of a Civil-law country, I have known for decades of Japan's adoption of significant legal institutions coming from France). If you can provide with that information you will really be sharing relevant information. But the question is about the origin of sport Karate kicks, not the history of contact between the Japanese and the French.
@@ManuelAdrogue Firstly, since the "contact' between the French and Japanses is very Military based (one mission alone was nearly 10 years long and was the single biggest influence on the Japanses ARMY-not their civil courts) and Savate was a standard part of French military Training, and several French instructors are listed as "physical trainers"..its a little bit like asking which Frenchman showed which japanses how to shoot his rifle...its a little silly to try to be that specific.
@@JohnJohnson-pq4qz I will be courteous, as I believe we should always be, in my response on why my research is neither "poor" nor my question "silly". My research is not "poor" because I have read almost all prestigious authors who have studied the initial years of Karate in Japan. Plenty of books and articles. The video means and nature of this Project does not allow to abound with bibliographical references, but I covered everything relevant to the first decades of Japanese Karate, which as we all know arrived to the main island in the 1920s. So any 19th century contacts may be interesting, but not relevant for karate. Before WWII the karate instructors in Japan were VERY few, and the names of the students of Funakoshi, Mabuni and Toyama are well documented, as well as which were their sources. Although there is a lot of very detailed material on them, there has NEVER been a single author stating that Savate influenced their Karate. The question of "who were the Japanese Karate instructors who learnt Savate" is not silly. Why did karate ignore all types of "reverse" kicks that existed in Savate (now called ura mawashi, and ura Mikazuki) until several decades after the purported connection with Savate, and exactly when they were being popularized by Taekwondo? The question is not "silly", since we know the names of those that were in the forefront of karate development and much of their life (it was just 80 years ago!!!) so some precision on that is indeed possible to go beyond mere generalizations. The question is not silly, we simply cannot answer it. And your rifle example is bad, because if a Japanese later happened to become a famous shooting expert, I am more than sure that at the very least someone would have said "he learnt in the Army trained by a French guy". You think my research is poor because I did not acknowledge things that YOU consider relevant, but you fail to provide what is indeed relevant to my thesis: conducive and precise facts. We can disagree, but since you do not know how deep my research has been ON MARTIAL ART HISTORY, it is unduly offensive to consider my work poor or my questions silly. If your standards are higher and your questions smarter, my congratulations. I have proven to be educated with Jesse Sensei (whom I have in high esteem), as I have been with you. Maybe I do not hold your "research" standards (I really don't know), but I do have my politeness standards. As Saint Paul says, in the end there will come a time when our knowledge ceases to exist, but then, only love will remain. As much as I appreciate knowledge, I do know what is most important. My best wishes to you and our common friend Sanko.
@@ManuelAdrogue But of course no response to the fact that there are no 'classical kicks of" TKD which , as I pointed out, is simply imitation karate. What the public should know is TkD has a history of, how shall we say it politely, disingenuousness. From the reverend Moon scandal, to the numerous corruption scandals of the governing bodies based in Korea going back to at least the 80s. The latest one coming out in 2022 about bribery to get Olympic recognition. The fake history of TKD that the Korean government has pushed, including the fake history of Tykwon, the phony rank scandals of TKD instructors all over the world are something all honest martial artist have always found distasteful. And now you want to make up a fake history of kicks! I for one will not tolerate more fake history coming from a rather fake martial art. If you look at Mas Oyama's books from the late 1960s (of which i have one on my shelf) all the kicks you describe are in there. Back kicks, jump kicks, wheel kicks etc. There is nothing original in TKD, it is, as clearly documented, karate which the Koreans have spent years lying about and making up fake history, you seem to be keeping that tradition alive and well. with a distasteful and silly fake history of kicking now.
@@JohnJohnson-pq4qz it is evident that you dos not watch my prior Episodes. I define Classical kicks as those used in 1970s TKD. You got confused by the name, although I was very clear on the first episodes, particular y 2 and 3. No fake history at all, just read the first four chapters of the book before making wrong conclusions. I hope you really do that and then come back. You Will understand how unfair You have been by critizing episode 5 completely misunderstanding before watching