The difference between the stealthy legion can be summed up as Raven guard: you dont see them and you dont know they're there Night Lords: you dont see them but you KNOW they're there Alpha legion: you see them but you dont know they're there
There’s a nice short story in the Corax anthology where a loyalist night lord works with some raven guard They leave a target alive, due to the night lord’s suggestion because the fear they have will lead them to safety, aka their base Or something like that
@@henriquekop1762 Oh, I've read something about a lore from 1d4chan that Alpherious was quite frustrated to Lion because he doesn't know how the Lion's though or how much he knows secret about Alpherious
Mortarion is second in psychic power among primarch if i am not wrong. And All all the primarch have psychic ability no matter how weak because of what they are made of. Self denial not included (Guillaman).
@@tupoibydlosmy theory is that they used chaos powers to stop chaos or other dangerous beings out of necessity. And is probably why they kind of agree to be put down cause they know what they done but they still have to do it regardless. Which explains why any memories of them were wiped out as to 1. Emperor didn’t want everyone to know about chaos 2. Its Still a great sin to use chaos powers 3. To have mercy on their legacy, being mysteriously wiped out.
What makes Leman and Corvus work so well together as well is the fact that in the real world ravens and wolves have a symbiotic relationship which makes them amazing hunters together.
What better symbiosis do you need for war than big angry wolves charging in, while the sneaky beakies, that the enemy doesn't even know is there, outflanks them while destabilizing defenses? They're perfect
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus how much did we know about wolves and ravens working together? Because the Norse might've known before us, or they just got lucky
A big one to the “modern” world of 40k is “The Author.” Both Lorgar and Guilliman valued recording their own thoughts and experiences for the sake of posterity and both wrote singular texts that their perspective sides would become obsessed with over the millennia
Yeah, I'd put them both under "Empire building" above and beyond straight conquest, with Lorgar reshaping cultures and Guilliman shaping the logistical systems Empires ran on.
@maltheri9833 and both primarchs now cringe at the extent to which people follow them. The eternal curse of being a writer lmao, you all ways end up seeing nothing but flaws in your work given enough time.
Oh yes, and both primarchs pondered what they could be outside of generals. And neither was especially into fighting for its own sake. And they both led large generalist legions whose only strength was working with non-Astartes. Had always assumed that was why the Emperor took Guilliman to Monarchia. Lorgar could never be The Lion or Ferrus, but I think to Big E he was like “you are supposed to be like him!”
Lorgar managed to push out two best sellers, with the Imperium now being obsessed with Lectitio Divinitatus, while Choas swears by the Book of Lorgar lol The highest grossing authors today WISH they had Lorgar's numbers
Apparently Guilleman had some sizable Psyker potential so he might be the redundancy for Magnus. Especially if Prospero is any indication of the kinds of worlds the thousand sons can make.
@@DINOROAR2912I disagree. Lorgar was seen as the weakest of the primarchs until he was buffed by chaos going into the Horus heresy. It’s a chaplain vs a librarian
The idea that Angron and Vulcan were designed for the same purpose but one is an example of a broken version of the tool is very interesting. It also helps out The Emperor's seemingly inexplicable behavior on Nuceria. He came looking for his healer paragon and found a rabid dog instead. He stole Angron away and doomed his companions because he didn't care about Angron's loyalty. As far as He was concerned Angron was a broken tool, usable only as bludgeon before being disposed of.
We see the same thing with Mortarion and Magnus. Magnus was already easily the third psyker in the Imperium when found. Mortarion is incredibly powerful, but hated and suppressed his psychic nature so hard that it twisted and broke him. When found the Emperor didn't even bother trying to fix or help him. Too much work and resources. He already had Magnus. So the Emperor stole Mortarion's vengeance and used him as the destroyer he had become.
I think Angron was supposed to fulfill Sanguinius's role, and vice versa. Think about it. Look at their genetic traits. Angron: Psychically empathetic. Unifier. Heals with just words and touch. Sanguinius: Fangs. Bloodlust, desire to kill. Premonition, capable of seeing the future. One was clearly designed to be a weapon and the other less so. It was their nature. Yet, their raising (their nurturing) made them into the opposite. Angron got the Nails, Sanguinius was raised saving people. The empath became the butcher and the butcher became the empath.
@The_Libationist I agree. It could explain why Emps was so cold to Angron; he already found Vulcan, a Perpetual and with a strong moral compass, and Sanguinius, the “perfect” one. He didn’t need Angron at that point, though I wish he tried to rehabilitate him.
Redundancy in warfare is very important! Backup systems that don't fundamentally change how your military operates when things break down are good things.
@@dagand0 people look at me crazy for saying that, 2 is 1 and 1 is none and you never have only one plan with no back up. Yes I bring 3 of anything I need with me.
It should also be noted on the Dorn v Perturabo bit that Perturabo had plans for construction, infrastructure, and architecture that could have easily rivaled Dorn but, had always pushed back and delayed his plans because the needs of the crusade in his eyes were more important. Tear it all down, make it ugly but, fast and effective now and when we're all done we can come back and make it beautiful
@@TheEarlofManwhich Seeing Dorn garbage fortress failed to keep traitors out and ended with Emperor needing to do suicide run while Perturabo's would obliterate the whole Fist legion if Ultramarines didn't arrive with massive force to bail them out, pretty much, yes. I especially like how Dorn was so dumb to let his fortress become completely useless and fail when someone breaks to the center of it while Perturabo was smart (and troll) enough to make center just one massive kill zone with taunting messages while real multiply redundant HQs and fallback areas were safely moving where enemy wasn't...
@@KuK137what do you mean garbage? If you didn’t notice the casualties on the Traitors side were obscene, 6 traitor legions, 3 of which were at full strength mind you and all good at attack and sieging vs 3 loyalist and only 1 that was suited for defence and the Custodes but they were busy and at the lowest numbers they ever had been and ever would be. Not to mention that by the end of the seige, Terra was literally being pulled into the Warp by the large amount of warp energies The white scars were outriders whilst the blood angels were shock assault yet Dorn managed to hold the traitors off long enough for the remaining dark angels and ultramarines to get close enough to get Horus panicked. By that estimate Dorn did extremely well.
@@lachlanevans5013 all this Iron Warrior love has gotten a little out of control. The IW were important, but they were about as competent as the Imperial Fists and their biggest virtue among the traitors was being the traitor legion least hight in warp juice. Not literally insane and literally not lobotomized, just look at the night lords and world eaters, their incompetence was _mostly_ out of their control (and the Thousand sons were pretty useful for a legion comprised of 6 survivors and 3/4 of a primarch).
@@leandrocastello309 I’m not dissing the Iron warriors they’re my second favourite traitor legion(after the sons of Horus) I’m just defending the Dorn and the Imperial fists.
I think you missed a very important narrative connection between Jaghatai and Corax. They are the Liberators. They both waged war against tyrants, despised some of more authoritarian brothers(Horus), both are extremely perceptive and free-willed
@@angelmochi9630 Angron got a narrative arc of a liberator, but he failed at it miserably, because he was not built to be one, at least that what I believe
From what I remember Horus was one of the Primarchs Jaghatai could get along with. Also Corax didn't like Horus not because he was more Authoritarian but because he tended to misuse his Legion in his eyes.
There's something to be said about pre-fall Fulgrim that is often forgotten, in that he also was a primarch of industry and perhaps even statecraft; he arrived on the miserable, dying world of Chemos, through efforts exponentially bettered the life of everyone on that world, and didn't keep it as some savage place to keep as recruitment pool of hardy folks for his legion like so many of his brothers did. He made it a thriving and vibrant place. I wish we got to see Chemos in the HH series. His approach is that of the charismatic politician and diplomat, in a way that complete Guilliman's more administrative touch. His legion used to share that meticulous planning of battle aspects as well, though probably more on the tactical than strategical and logistical scale. He also more or less had to rebuild his entire legion from the ground up, something that could relate to Magnus' journey with his own legion. In any case, he was more than a fancy showboating duelist; he was an accomplished diplomat and a patron of the arts, something that could be shared with Sanguinius in some capacity.
@@GeoffryGifari Fulgrim and the Lion both were sorta "jacks of all trades" backups, as both of their legions tried to have a general grasp and mastery of all they set their minds to. The Lion's Dark Angels embody this through their wings, with the Dreadwing, the Deathwing, the Ironwing, and so forth, where each specialized division would have a mastery over a field of warfare. The Emperor's Children moreso tried to perfect almost everything they could as a whole legion. Though Dorn and Perturabo may focus on siege warfare for instance, there are instances of both the Emperor's Children and the Dark Angels both demonstrating a mastery of that particular way of war. Fulgrim at Istvaan, and the Lion in his Primarch book.
That is why I think there has to be a third! It only makes sense, and I don't care if Omegon said he could feel that he was alone. There has to be a third 😅
Iirc at the beginning of the Alpharius Primarch book, it’s stated that the role Alpharius got as keeper of secrets/spymaster was not the one that was intended for them, but that changed when all the Primarchs got flung out to the Galaxy and Alpharius was the only one left on Terra.
@maltheri9833 I personally think Alphi/omag were meant to be warriors. The alpha legion had some of the largest marines and despite having his power literally split in two Alphi/Omag were still not the weakest prime arch. Something else that is interesting is that despite being a spy he still craved glory and sought battles of martial prowess something which would have been disadvantageous in a spy and stealthy fighter.
I’d include a “jack of all trades” category for the Lion and Guilliman. They both have answers for almost any kind of scenario and are the most adaptable of the Primarchs.
I think the ability of Perturabo to see the Eye of Terror took form when his eyes gazed through the capsule's "glass" while he was being transported through the warp. He simply never forgot what the warp and its influence looks like, and could see the biggest leak of the warp into real-space.
I feel like Fulgrim is sort of a Generalist archetype all on his own. Maybe not the best at anything but possibly the best at anything at the same time. I think the more you look into him the more its hard to pin him down. Besides stealth or infiltration i think he fits into any given archetype in this list. Ig his thing is that he doesnt have any special power but he tries to be the best at everything, so hes a contender in every category but he often gets overlooked or simplified as the fancy duelist femboy@@livefromtheblacklibrary
@@aguspuig6615Fulgrim does have a niche though, one seem by how he was able to unite his homeworld entirely without bloodshed via playing politics: he is redundant with Guiliman for being the politician primarch
The secret keeper archetype applies to both the Lion and Alpharius The technician archetype applies to Ferrus Mannus and Perterabo The “king slayer” archetype applies to Horus and Russ The “great warrior king” archetype applies to the Khan and Russ in the whole Great Khan/Great wolf warlord role.
The Paladin, a beast of single combat that also throws a "Iss just a little booboo, see? No more booboo on you" to his allies while chopping arms left right and center.
The statesman category would most likely be Guilliman and Fulgrim due to their leadership roles in a less militaristic way, leaning more towards politics and statecraft. I feel you were spot on with all these categories. And it just goes to show which Primarchs are able to do what. Perturabo was an interesting one with just how many categories he was in. Just goes to show how versatile he was compared to the other Primarchs.
Tbh yea Guilliman got the longest end of the Emperor stick as far as the loyalists are concerned. It’s so funny going from the heresy era ‘Guillimans nascent empire’ to ‘you’re my only hope’ we see what you’re doing big Eagle you’re not fooling anyone
Rus and the Lion were the Chaos killers. The Lion was great at it, and did well to remove the worst of his infested hom planet, and Rus's shout likely was meant to destroy chaos. In fact, I believe that's why he was sent after Magnus, even if it wasn't meant to be a death blow. Rus was never meant to wield the power, but to crush it.
@@edmundthespiffing2920No it was serious, he started calling them his sons when they were still babies. Malcador raised an eyebrow at it but he kept the fact he was surprised by it to himself. I think them being flung away by Chaos especially made him force himself to be more cold towards them, but as the Crusade went he started warming up to some of them yet. I think that's the only way it makes sense
@ironduke5058 perturbo's paranoïa comes from somewhere. The Emperor being cautious with his sons makes sense, I guess. But the Emperor is also known to have a weird, twisted sense of humor. Like how he named the Astartes after the scientist that helped make, then kill them. Maybe calling them his sons this early was just him making "a joke".
@@edmundthespiffing2920wasn't that a sign of respect? Still giving them her name when he could easily have erased her but instead just left her to live in peace
I feel like this is more like redundant personalities whereas Big E would be more concerned with redundant jobs. I would have said: Vulkan & Ferrus Manus : Forgemaster Lion El Johnson & Horus : Warmaster Rogal Dorn & Perturabo : Siegemaster Alpharius & Corvus Corax: Spymaster Fulgrim & Lorgar: Culturemaster Sanguinius & Konrad Curze: Scryermaster Mortarion & Angron: Attritionmaster Jaghatai Khan & Leman Russ: Executionmaster Roboute Guilleman & REDACTED: Savantmaster Magnus & REDACTED: Thronemaster
I think the Emperor just split himself up into all of his sons, maybe with the arrogance of thinking every part of him was valuable, and also not knowing that they would be separated so that he couldn't balance them properly and control how they grew up.
my headcannon is that magnus' counterpart was either the 2nd or the 11th just because he was the only uber mega alpha ++ psyker. It would explain why malcador and emps were so desperate to get magnus to not betray as they allready dissapeared the other option.
8:33 We still see Angrons honour and compassion after he becomes a Deamon. At the siege of terra he offers the defenders at the Space port a chance to surrender after Dorn has sent them there to die without their knowledge.
8:45 We need an animation of him walking along the fields, picking up a skull that he knows was someone close to him. And have the davy jones quivering lip at the locket moment, before the nails replace his melancholy with hatred and rage
ANGRON WAS WILLING TO DIE FOR AND WITH A BUNCH OF SLAVES, who other primarch would do that, maybe vulkan would fight for them, but DIE FOR THEM?????? Only the red angel who was stolen from us
Feel like Fulgrim really should be in one of those charismatic leader slots. How many primarchs can claim to have delivered a single speech that moved the Emperor so much he gave them his name and symbol for their Legion’s sole use. Not to mention Chemos. Fulgrim became leader and improved his home planet so much and never resorted to warfare or bloodshed. No other primarch can claim that. Just through charisma as well as engineering and administrative prowess.
Lets not forget angron wanted to be with his slave family so bad that he charged the emperor and ripped a fully armored custodies in half bare handed. BARE HANDED.
I'd say Guilliman and Sangunius both represent optimism. Guilliman is consistently talking about the far future "where there is only peace," and Sangunius name literally means "comes from unwarranted optimism." (Yes, sanguine can mean blood, but it also means unwarranted optimism. That's the joke with the legion's name.) Not to mention the narrative connection they both have to that. The death of Sangunius represents the death of The Emperor's Dream. Guilliman's resurrection represents its rebirth. Though you could say this is just a narrative representation. And maybe one of the lost Primarchs was an "empire builder" maybe based off Napoleon? As to why you only mention Guilliman once.
Alpharius and Omegon being the scheming, constantly plotting and sneaky twins that just do stuff for the lolz while the rest of the family is trying, very poorly, to not rip each others heads off.
To be fair, Lion was trained for decades in the art of dueling. Sanguinius and Angron were created to be duelists, Lion achieved that position from his time growing up on a death world (in terms of skill in a duel, the only one who get close to Lion is Russ) Angron grew up fighting men. Lion grew up fighting monsters, and thus when fighting daemon primarchs he's in his element. He fights almost on instinct at that point
The Lion's my favourite primarch but I think you're overestimating him. My understanding is taking Curze took multiple attempts, one of which Curze would have won were it not for Corswains intervention. Also while demon Angron is more powerful than pre demon Angron, he is also dumber and probably an easier match up for the Lion who is a specialist monster slayer. The Lion is absolutely a top tier fighter but Horus, Russ, Sanguinius, Curze and Angron are all his equals up there. Possibly Jagetai or even Fulgrim (despite his image) too. So yeah Corvus was wrong but I dont think Russ is Lion's only equal. Sanguinius probably beats Lion in fact, he's the living weapon. Lion is more a complete warrior commander on all levels.
Dorn and Gulliman had larger legions because they absorbed the legions of the fallen primarchs preheresy. Malcador erased the memories of both primarchs at their own request
The Emperor (& Malcador) believed they could return the Primarch after their death. This means the Emperor pushed Angron to fight in the Reunification Wars until he was near death (by the butcher's nails) because Big E was on a short timeline.
Yes, because Angron put the lives of those he cared for LESS than his desire to save. He chose to die with them as one unit than to save them as their savior. Angron needed to only join with the Emperor and command his legion, consequences be damed.
Jimmy Space is to be nice not the biggest fan of defiance. Angry Ron said no and needed to be punished, the 50 gladiators could have been saved no problem but because Angron defined big E he let them die.
For dualist and swordmasters I thought it was said that Lion El’Johnson was near unmatched at both with maybe sanguinius taking him in the full dueling. But I thought he was supposed to be the most skilled primarch with a sword
So what, they all have 1 Primary Aspect That which they are best at, say Siege warfare 2 Secondary Aspect That trait they are a substitute for, say Fortification 3 Adopted/Learned Aspect Personal experience that may subvert their genetics, say cold Patience It would be interesting to chart this all out and see what the missing primarchs would likely cover.
In my opinion, i think that Perturabo should be replaced with Vulkan in the whole resiliant warrior trope here. Not only was he a perpetual that would not stop fighting after death over and over, but his legion kept up the footslogging, hard to kill parallel that the death guard have. Also, it just helps it stay continuous with the pattern of there being one loyalist and one traitor with each of these roles.
The logistics guys: Guilliman and Perturabo. The animals: Lion and Leman Russ. Fulgrim was shown to be gifted at administration because he turned his home world around from a resorceless dump into a civilized world.
The Lion is definitely should get a nod in charisma. His first observed meeting with Horus made everyone present kneel to him. He has the kingly aura that only the Emperor has.
I guess, the differentiation there is that the Lion himself isn't actually able to move people with his words like the others. He has a great aura but he isn't able to lead and communicate with his lessers. If I remember correctly, he often conferred the role of communication to Luther.
Here are what I think the Primarchs are for WarMaster: Lion Horus Legislatior: Guilliman Dorn Enforcer: Russ Alph/Omg Face (The face of the IOM): Sanguinius Fulgrim Assassin: Corex Curze Ones take control of the Mechanicus: Manus Perturabo Anti-Demon/warp: Mortarian Khan Battery for the Golden Throne: Magnus Logar Soemthing to do with morailty: Vulkan Angron
I feel like Girlyman and Perty functioned as back ups for so many different situations because they were two that the big E would have used the most (Minus Magnus) after the war. Both of them were brilliant when I came to logistics and both would have been essential perty (for infrastructure and construction) and Girly (Logistics and politics)
It almost seems like the other primarchs were expected to take each other out after the Crusade, and the Emperor would just use a handful of them who were left to maintain peace and order until they died and regular humans could take over, maybe 10-20K years later. Of course Vulcan would stick around forever, but he was the most empathetic to regular humans. A perfect Primarch to keep on hand if humanity needs a defender... It is all silly speculation of course.
6:40 Yes. YES. Absolutely right. Its actually a big part of why Angron is my favorite primarch. His ability was to be able to feel and take on the pain of others. Instead of healing bodies, he healed spirits. He was to be the primarch of compassion. Its why his fall to the nails is so terribly sad. He yearned for freedom as a slave, but not for himself. He wanted his brothers to be free, because he loved them, and understood their plight. He could've probably escaped whenever he wanted on his own, as he is a primarch, but it would've meant nothing to him if his comrades, brothers and sisters in arms, weren't able to enjoy that freedom as well. Its why he wished to die with his comrades, instead of live on without them. I fully believe that, while he would never get rid of the damage of the nails, if the Emperor sent down a contingent of Warhounds to aid Angron, his loyalty wouldve been secured first and foremost, but, more importantly, he would've been able to find a way to cope better with the nails. Learn to become less bloodthirsty and hateful, and possibly work with the Emperor's and Mechanicus's tech to alleviate some of the suffering. But even if tech wasn't possible at all, he still had a better chance for a noble life that, at one time, Angron did want for himself. Angron without the nails would've absolutely been someone like Vulkan in personality and Legion culture. Angron just would've been the compassionate warrior, while Vulkan the compassionate craftsman (which, Vulkan absolutely still is a warrior, but its like you said, theres overlap, like how Ferrus was also a master craftsman, as was Fulgrim).
I think there are nuances beyond simple redundancy that are fun to think about in terms of the Emperor's intended roles for the Primarchs. For example, it's well established that foresight isn't simply seeing the future or having knowledge of exactly what's going to happen or anything like that. I think it's fun to think about Sanguinius and Konrad Curze not as redundant because both possessed the gift of foresight, but as similar and complimentary. Sanguinius' foresight may have been intended to be an optimistic view of future events and Curze may have been intended to be a pessimistic view, both views valuable in giving counsel to the Emperor, who possessed his own vision of the future.
I also just think each of them is a facet of the Emperor, and that is why they all balance out in this way. Likely, if they hadn't been separated, the Emperor could have guided them to all be complementary like this and have avoided the unintended consequences of clashing personalities (though some of those clashes were clearly intended).
Russ can be compared with a lot of other primarchs. With his penchant for aggressive fighting he could be compared to Horus, for his skill in single combat he could be compared to the Lion, for his swift and decisive action along with rationally deceptive barbarism, he could be compared to the Khan. There was only two primarchs he believed could beat him and those were Conrad because of his madness and wild nature and Sanguinious for his sheer awesome power. He was a duelist, a hunter, and likely designed as the Emperors tool to subjugate, incapacitate, or destroy his other sons.
I love Russ' attack on Horus after he has submitted to the ruinous powers; His entire fleet flies recklessly at Horus', with him at the tip of the vanguard (spear), and then he runs straight at Horus recklessly, and then in the fight he takes a hit so that he can strike Horus with the Emperor's spear just once, making a wound that will never heal, and then they talk briefly, and he mentally stabs him, sowing doubt in a wound that never heals. Every step of the way everything is a fractal metaphor of different levels of the spear and the wound that ends up staying with Horus right up to the end. It is epic af.
@@inthefade When you want to ambush an enemy who is in a secure location, fly through the gap between two binary stars to get him when he is vulnerable.
Another fun thing that’s apart of my head canon is that from everything I’ve read and seen the emperor more than likely wanted the other Perpetuals to be his primary leaders but due to his grand ambitions and conquering of mankind they all went away one by one so he just filled those roles with the Primarchs.
In the new codex for dark angels it mentions that Lion can sort 'forest walk' and even bring people with him. He can travel to different planets with it. and he can apparently also stand in a room and be unoticed when he's watching over his various successor chapters. Why he spies on them is not told but apparently he can do this and be unnoticed until he wants to be.
The thing with Lorgar surprised me completely: I would commented on his psychic abilities and also I doesn't guess, that he is considered as a inspiring leader.
Big E set up the 20 as specific aspects, and double as a redundancy. Also, he was working on the Golden Throne/Beacon, while having Dorn reinforce the Palace. Big E knew things would happen, and prepared for it. There was a reason for all the competition between the Primarchs, and some were very clear cut. The issue is 2 and 11. Not knowing them, or why they were redacted. Alpha Legion would be the hardest to find a counter. Some would say Dark Angels, but they couldn't touch some of the intricate plans that A.L. could. If a different Warmaster were to be assigned, it would have been Sanguinius. Sanguinius demanded art, craftsmanship, as well as battle mastery, and statesmanship. He is even depicted as trying to diffuse tense situations, never speculated on who would beat who, and could be serious or playful, when it was needed.
Gman-Fulgrim = diplomats Dorn-Perturabo = builders Magnus-A/O = knowledge seekers Sanguinius-Angron = attack dogs Lion-Horus = leaders Corax-Curze = spies Jaghatai-Leman = hunters Ferrus-Vulkan = craftsmen only Mortarion and Lorgar that have no contingency but maybe those are the 2nd and 11th
I would put Fulgrim above Perty on the "endurance" category, we see Fulgrim getting blown to pieces multiple times while still being able to carry on and fight like nothing had happened.
Also Fulgrim could be acknowledged as standing out in a couple more categories beyond finesse fighter. Charismatic leader, craftsman, innovator, civilization builder etc I see aspects of Lorgar, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Perturabo, Guilliman in his proclivities
According to the napkin where the emperor scribbled his plans Guilliman was supposed to fuck up eldar just like Vulkan, but he forgot to ad "up" in the notes.
I think one category you might have missed is the Criticisers. The Primarchs who weren’t afraid to look the Big E in the eye and tell him he’s doing a bad job at something and tell him how to change it. Despite how much people hate criticism it’s important to note that the best way people can do a job is for someone to just openly say “your method is shit here try it this way” I think this role is full filled best by Mortarion and Jaghatai Khan. Jaghatai was known to be the one with the most common sense out of all the Primarchs and was well known for he and Emperor not being on the best of terms relationship wise, he saw the council of Nikea as folly and disobeying it out of hand as well as being the only Primarchs to actually negotiate with Big E on their first meeting. Mortarion however had his purpose twisted by the hatred he had developed on Barbados as a byproduct by his upbringing and in the end it did turn into Hypocrisy rather than criticism. I could be wrong and if anyone feels this role belongs to someone else feel free to comment down below.
@@inthefadeyeah agreed but I think that was because, Like Mortarion his purpose was altered by his environment making him more of a free spirit who just wanted to go out and do his own thing and leave the proper politics to Guilliman and others who were more suited for it. But still could see the flaws in certain proclamation. It seems that Mortarion was the more outspoken, push for change Critisiser(by that I mean the guy who would be the one to pressure you into changing something and will continue to apply pressure until it changes) whilst Khan was more the more quiet observer think things through and give your constructive arguement kind of criticiser. I’ll admit now that I look at it after all this time my comment does seem a little bit weird but it was just something I noticed and wanted to say.
I would argue Leman Russ and Angron are the redundancy match. Loyalty and animalistic traits. Had Angron not had the nails, he could have been a very effective attack dog.
Well that is up for debate. I personally believe that their death was a hard choice and their deaths did hamper the emperor in some way. Heck everyone was extremely bothered by their deaths. The 11th primarch probably fell to Malal/Malice(or at least that’s my headcanon) and as such had to be killed. I’m not sure about the 2nd Primarch but if Sanguinius claims from the book Fear to tread were to be believed then he probably fell to a gene flaw along with the rest of his legion and had to be culled.
This is a great concept and a great video! You are spot on regarding Malcador's "redundancy", plans, with plans, with backups, with backups. I think that 1-to-1 redundancies aren't really the way it works either, just as you said. Some primarchs are extreme specialists, like Magnus. Some primarchs are "meant to guard the hearth" while others are march wardens. The 7th was clearly meant to guard the hearth. The primarchs' and their legions' roles (which are linked) are more important than their specific specialisms however. Guilliman is a march warden. Even the name "Ultramar" hearkens to "Outremer", the furthest of the realm. Guilliman's talents are a reflection of what role he was created to fill, not the other way around. On the fringes on Imperial Space, logistics are key. He builds empire because that's what you do on the border. He is a civilizer because it is necessary to maintain order on the fringe. This multi-talented teir set helps explain how some primarchs seem to have many abilities while others do not. Dorn is a great builder, he is enduring, steadfast, resolute, a great defender and siege master. He is supremely ordered and although not an innovator, he still practices excellent gamesmanship. Perturabo IS an innovator, but he's also prone to depression, immaturity, rage, and getting played (Fulgrim style). The Lion, as stated in his primarch novel, was the archetype upon which all his other brothers were based. He, as of his primarch novel, had never lost a battle or a fight according to the narrator. Magnus regarded him as a scholar. He choked off high level psykers simply through the power of will. It is stated in several books that he was the expert hunter (Unremembered Empire, Angels of Caliban, his primarch novel). Apparently, between his first and second duels with the Krave, he learned to resist their kinetic force psyker attacks. In his fight with Russ, he disarmed him in the opening moments easily, considering the fight over. He tricked Fateweaver, repaired the Invincible Reason's warp core, defeated Curze twice, and conquered more worlds than any 2 of his brothers combined. He thought like his father. He enforced the will of his father, even knowing what he wanted without having to speak to him. He seemed to have a share in all the gifts of his brothers. Why did he get all of these talents? The 1st was made to be alone, to be sufficient to any task, which is not true of any other legion to such an extent. The 13th also has a similar capacity, but not to such an extent. Horus was a great general and figurehead, but the 16th would never be able to defeat the 1st. This is all to say that they fill roles and have skills and inclinations to different degrees to accomplish those roles.
I like the Dorn and Guilliman point. Especially since they both had to fight the alpha legion which is a force designed to break down their very strengths
I believe one of the White scars horus heresy books, they found essencially another throne and one of the white scars librarians knew it was meant for Jagathai to sit on, while the one in terra was meant for magnus. One of the librarians decided to save the fleet/ship by sitting and burning himself out on said chair to open a way out. I believe the implication was that Jagathai is actually gifted, but doesn't really know how to use his powers.
I'm kinda new to the lore, but for all the vieos i saw, is somewhat clear that angron and sanguinus went to opposite situations from what they are created for. Angron was create to be the mroe empathetic and Sanginus (and if si canon the angell protytipe thing i read) sounds more whas built to be the wardog of the imperium ( the blood curse is not a bug but a feature and everything), but their experiences after they got warped molded than to the oppposite situations
I didn’t know Perturabo could learn from anything he saw. That explains the paintings in Malcador’s collection that the Emperor deemed too dangerous for Perturabo to see.
Even worse. Before that power awakened in him his greatest joy was learning new things. Now he can't gain any pleasure from experimentation. Imagine if your favorite source of happiness was reading mystery novels....but then one day gained magical foresight that spoiled the plot every time you cracked a book.
The Lion falls under quite a few more archetypes. Hes also a hunter, he has the psychic ability to "forest walk" to anywhere he wants to go, he also has the charisma as stated in Son of the Forest.
When you put the Hunters, I want to point out something: Both Russ and the Khan are also the spiritualists among the Primarchs, bearing an understanding of the warp that is tied to their homeworlds and unique disciplines. This also shapes the way their Psykers work (Rune Priests and Stormseers), just one was willing to admit that his sons were using home-flavored warp magic while the other wasn't. EDIT: I remembered another thing that I don't think I heard during the video, the Anti-Psykers: Royal Dorn and Leman Russ. Both had the incredible ability to shut down the warp in a localized area: Leman's Roar and Rogal's Anti-Warp Aura.
The Emperor was so far sighted, he even made a back up mysterious missing primarch for the already mysterious missing one
Lol
The difference between the stealthy legion can be summed up as
Raven guard: you dont see them and you dont know they're there
Night Lords: you dont see them but you KNOW they're there
Alpha legion: you see them but you dont know they're there
There’s a nice short story in the Corax anthology where a loyalist night lord works with some raven guard
They leave a target alive, due to the night lord’s suggestion because the fear they have will lead them to safety, aka their base
Or something like that
Dark Angels -You see them and you KNOW they are here. But you dont know what they are up to.
@@henriquekop1762 Oh, I've read something about a lore from 1d4chan that Alpherious was quite frustrated to Lion because he doesn't know how the Lion's though or how much he knows secret about Alpherious
@@ronanchristiana.belleza9270 classic Psycho ( Alpharius/Oregon) vs Schizo (Lion) dilema.
@@kelakogreenaddict1888 "the Value of Fear" is the name of that short story, is great.
The lack of psychic redundant primarchs implies that a psychic primarch belonged to one of the erased legions
Wasnt mortarion and magnus psykers?
Edit.
My dumbass got confused
Magnus..yes..perturabo....wellllll he was a type of psycho@@xzenitramx666
Or both
Mortarion is second in psychic power among primarch if i am not wrong.
And All all the primarch have psychic ability no matter how weak because of what they are made of. Self denial not included (Guillaman).
Lorgar becomes a psychic beast during Heresy.
Primarchs 2 and 11 shared the trait of sassing their Dad.
i think one of their cases was described as a tragedy and the other as a delivery of justice or prevention of greater evil or smt like that idk
@@tupoibydlosmy theory is that they used chaos powers to stop chaos or other dangerous beings out of necessity. And is probably why they kind of agree to be put down cause they know what they done but they still have to do it regardless.
Which explains why any memories of them were wiped out as to
1. Emperor didn’t want everyone to know about chaos
2. Its Still a great sin to use chaos powers
3. To have mercy on their legacy, being mysteriously wiped out.
What makes Leman and Corvus work so well together as well is the fact that in the real world ravens and wolves have a symbiotic relationship which makes them amazing hunters together.
What better symbiosis do you need for war than big angry wolves charging in, while the sneaky beakies, that the enemy doesn't even know is there, outflanks them while destabilizing defenses? They're perfect
Oh yeah make sense
There’s also the fact that Odin had two ravens: thought and memory aka Huginn and Muninn.
Odin also had two wolves: Geri and Freki
Ravens will also play with young pups as well. It's pretty awesome seeing two animals essentially be great friends
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus how much did we know about wolves and ravens working together? Because the Norse might've known before us, or they just got lucky
A big one to the “modern” world of 40k is “The Author.” Both Lorgar and Guilliman valued recording their own thoughts and experiences for the sake of posterity and both wrote singular texts that their perspective sides would become obsessed with over the millennia
thank you, he forgotten Rob. I was like "what about Guilliman?"
Yeah, I'd put them both under "Empire building" above and beyond straight conquest, with Lorgar reshaping cultures and Guilliman shaping the logistical systems Empires ran on.
@maltheri9833 and both primarchs now cringe at the extent to which people follow them. The eternal curse of being a writer lmao, you all ways end up seeing nothing but flaws in your work given enough time.
Oh yes, and both primarchs pondered what they could be outside of generals. And neither was especially into fighting for its own sake. And they both led large generalist legions whose only strength was working with non-Astartes. Had always assumed that was why the Emperor took Guilliman to Monarchia. Lorgar could never be The Lion or Ferrus, but I think to Big E he was like “you are supposed to be like him!”
Lorgar managed to push out two best sellers, with the Imperium now being obsessed with Lectitio Divinitatus, while Choas swears by the Book of Lorgar lol
The highest grossing authors today WISH they had Lorgar's numbers
Never forget, Magnus the Red doesn't have a redundancy.
Officially.
Could have been 2nd or 11th
@@hardyboy7408thats his point...
Lorgar's psychic might rivals Magnus, and they both love acquiring knowledge, its entirely reasonable that Lorgar could have sat the Throne
Apparently Guilleman had some sizable Psyker potential so he might be the redundancy for Magnus.
Especially if Prospero is any indication of the kinds of worlds the thousand sons can make.
@@DINOROAR2912I disagree. Lorgar was seen as the weakest of the primarchs until he was buffed by chaos going into the Horus heresy. It’s a chaplain vs a librarian
The idea that Angron and Vulcan were designed for the same purpose but one is an example of a broken version of the tool is very interesting.
It also helps out The Emperor's seemingly inexplicable behavior on Nuceria. He came looking for his healer paragon and found a rabid dog instead. He stole Angron away and doomed his companions because he didn't care about Angron's loyalty. As far as He was concerned Angron was a broken tool, usable only as bludgeon before being disposed of.
We see the same thing with Mortarion and Magnus. Magnus was already easily the third psyker in the Imperium when found.
Mortarion is incredibly powerful, but hated and suppressed his psychic nature so hard that it twisted and broke him. When found the Emperor didn't even bother trying to fix or help him. Too much work and resources. He already had Magnus. So the Emperor stole Mortarion's vengeance and used him as the destroyer he had become.
I think Angron was supposed to fulfill Sanguinius's role, and vice versa. Think about it. Look at their genetic traits.
Angron: Psychically empathetic. Unifier. Heals with just words and touch.
Sanguinius: Fangs. Bloodlust, desire to kill. Premonition, capable of seeing the future.
One was clearly designed to be a weapon and the other less so. It was their nature. Yet, their raising (their nurturing) made them into the opposite. Angron got the Nails, Sanguinius was raised saving people.
The empath became the butcher and the butcher became the empath.
@The_Libationist I agree. It could explain why Emps was so cold to Angron; he already found Vulcan, a Perpetual and with a strong moral compass, and Sanguinius, the “perfect” one. He didn’t need Angron at that point, though I wish he tried to rehabilitate him.
he also had sanguineous aswell still left
@@moderndavinci6599 and that's why both of them are broken.
Traitor Primarchs be like "I never wanted this 😔" while they atomise puppies.
“Burns Galaxy”
What do you think the Lion's role as the Escaton was? 🤔
Some of them genuinely didn’t
@@jellydamgood Good point.
@@brian2888 "casually stabs nephew"
Redundancy in warfare is very important! Backup systems that don't fundamentally change how your military operates when things break down are good things.
"2 is 1 and 1 is none" -My Platoon Sgt literally any time we prepared for anything
@@dagand0 people look at me crazy for saying that, 2 is 1 and 1 is none and you never have only one plan with no back up.
Yes I bring 3 of anything I need with me.
It should also be noted on the Dorn v Perturabo bit that Perturabo had plans for construction, infrastructure, and architecture that could have easily rivaled Dorn but, had always pushed back and delayed his plans because the needs of the crusade in his eyes were more important. Tear it all down, make it ugly but, fast and effective now and when we're all done we can come back and make it beautiful
I'm sure Perty would say that. Would that turn out? Pretty skeptical. Especially if it's his version of magnificence.
@@TheEarlofManwhich Seeing Dorn garbage fortress failed to keep traitors out and ended with Emperor needing to do suicide run while Perturabo's would obliterate the whole Fist legion if Ultramarines didn't arrive with massive force to bail them out, pretty much, yes. I especially like how Dorn was so dumb to let his fortress become completely useless and fail when someone breaks to the center of it while Perturabo was smart (and troll) enough to make center just one massive kill zone with taunting messages while real multiply redundant HQs and fallback areas were safely moving where enemy wasn't...
@@KuK137what do you mean garbage? If you didn’t notice the casualties on the Traitors side were obscene, 6 traitor legions, 3 of which were at full strength mind you and all good at attack and sieging vs 3 loyalist and only 1 that was suited for defence and the Custodes but they were busy and at the lowest numbers they ever had been and ever would be.
Not to mention that by the end of the seige, Terra was literally being pulled into the Warp by the large amount of warp energies
The white scars were outriders whilst the blood angels were shock assault yet Dorn managed to hold the traitors off long enough for the remaining dark angels and ultramarines to get close enough to get Horus panicked.
By that estimate Dorn did extremely well.
@@lachlanevans5013 all this Iron Warrior love has gotten a little out of control. The IW were important, but they were about as competent as the Imperial Fists and their biggest virtue among the traitors was being the traitor legion least hight in warp juice. Not literally insane and literally not lobotomized, just look at the night lords and world eaters, their incompetence was _mostly_ out of their control (and the Thousand sons were pretty useful for a legion comprised of 6 survivors and 3/4 of a primarch).
@@leandrocastello309 I’m not dissing the Iron warriors they’re my second favourite traitor legion(after the sons of Horus) I’m just defending the Dorn and the Imperial fists.
I think you missed a very important narrative connection between Jaghatai and Corax. They are the Liberators. They both waged war against tyrants, despised some of more authoritarian brothers(Horus), both are extremely perceptive and free-willed
That could go for alot more primarchs narrative wise tho
But then what about angron?
You can argue that Mortarion is also a liberator at his core. In a more twisted way than Corax ofc
@@angelmochi9630 Angron got a narrative arc of a liberator, but he failed at it miserably, because he was not built to be one, at least that what I believe
From what I remember Horus was one of the Primarchs Jaghatai could get along with. Also Corax didn't like Horus not because he was more Authoritarian but because he tended to misuse his Legion in his eyes.
The thought of all the primarchs being the middle child is so hilarious yet make so much sense.
There's something to be said about pre-fall Fulgrim that is often forgotten, in that he also was a primarch of industry and perhaps even statecraft; he arrived on the miserable, dying world of Chemos, through efforts exponentially bettered the life of everyone on that world, and didn't keep it as some savage place to keep as recruitment pool of hardy folks for his legion like so many of his brothers did. He made it a thriving and vibrant place. I wish we got to see Chemos in the HH series. His approach is that of the charismatic politician and diplomat, in a way that complete Guilliman's more administrative touch. His legion used to share that meticulous planning of battle aspects as well, though probably more on the tactical than strategical and logistical scale.
He also more or less had to rebuild his entire legion from the ground up, something that could relate to Magnus' journey with his own legion.
In any case, he was more than a fancy showboating duelist; he was an accomplished diplomat and a patron of the arts, something that could be shared with Sanguinius in some capacity.
Can fulgrim be thought of as the ultimate backup due to his obsession of perfecting everything?
@@GeoffryGifari Fulgrim and the Lion both were sorta "jacks of all trades" backups, as both of their legions tried to have a general grasp and mastery of all they set their minds to. The Lion's Dark Angels embody this through their wings, with the Dreadwing, the Deathwing, the Ironwing, and so forth, where each specialized division would have a mastery over a field of warfare. The Emperor's Children moreso tried to perfect almost everything they could as a whole legion. Though Dorn and Perturabo may focus on siege warfare for instance, there are instances of both the Emperor's Children and the Dark Angels both demonstrating a mastery of that particular way of war. Fulgrim at Istvaan, and the Lion in his Primarch book.
So you could say him and Gulliman were the Politicians.
Alpharius and Omegon are the paragons of redundancy
Not that they would let anyone know that
That is why I think there has to be a third! It only makes sense, and I don't care if Omegon said he could feel that he was alone. There has to be a third 😅
Iirc at the beginning of the Alpharius Primarch book, it’s stated that the role Alpharius got as keeper of secrets/spymaster was not the one that was intended for them, but that changed when all the Primarchs got flung out to the Galaxy and Alpharius was the only one left on Terra.
@maltheri9833 I personally think Alphi/omag were meant to be warriors. The alpha legion had some of the largest marines and despite having his power literally split in two Alphi/Omag were still not the weakest prime arch. Something else that is interesting is that despite being a spy he still craved glory and sought battles of martial prowess something which would have been disadvantageous in a spy and stealthy fighter.
When in doubt just assume a non redundant Primarch is that way because the 2nd and 11th are dead and forgotten
It is entirely possible that one of the lost Primarchs is simply so good at remaining unknown that they've been purged from Imperial records
I’d include a “jack of all trades” category for the Lion and Guilliman.
They both have answers for almost any kind of scenario and are the most adaptable of the Primarchs.
I think the ability of Perturabo to see the Eye of Terror took form when his eyes gazed through the capsule's "glass" while he was being transported through the warp. He simply never forgot what the warp and its influence looks like, and could see the biggest leak of the warp into real-space.
Combine that with his Primarch ability: He knows the Galaxy’s greatest weak point. He knows what will break first.
I like the idea that Angron was made to help heal his brothers after being to used to war
Combined with the honorable devoted brotherhood aspect that he had going on with his fellow gladiators....we almost had space paladins.
Could angron have cured or at least healed the red thirst?
Interesting list indeed. My first tought is that Fulgrim fits the administrator archetype too.
That’s true! And the charismatic leader!
I feel like Fulgrim is sort of a Generalist archetype all on his own. Maybe not the best at anything but possibly the best at anything at the same time. I think the more you look into him the more its hard to pin him down. Besides stealth or infiltration i think he fits into any given archetype in this list.
Ig his thing is that he doesnt have any special power but he tries to be the best at everything, so hes a contender in every category but he often gets overlooked or simplified as the fancy duelist femboy@@livefromtheblacklibrary
@@aguspuig6615Fulgrim does have a niche though, one seem by how he was able to unite his homeworld entirely without bloodshed via playing politics: he is redundant with Guiliman for being the politician primarch
Sounds about right
The secret keeper archetype applies to both the Lion and Alpharius
The technician archetype applies to Ferrus Mannus and Perterabo
The “king slayer” archetype applies to Horus and Russ
The “great warrior king” archetype applies to the Khan and Russ in the whole Great Khan/Great wolf warlord role.
Couldn’t you also argue that the Lion falls under the archetype of “Great Warrior King” as well?
If angron had not hot the nails he would have been one hell of a primarch.
The Paladin, a beast of single combat that also throws a "Iss just a little booboo, see? No more booboo on you" to his allies while chopping arms left right and center.
I think that's the point. It adds to the tragedy.
The statesman category would most likely be Guilliman and Fulgrim due to their leadership roles in a less militaristic way, leaning more towards politics and statecraft.
I feel you were spot on with all these categories. And it just goes to show which Primarchs are able to do what. Perturabo was an interesting one with just how many categories he was in. Just goes to show how versatile he was compared to the other Primarchs.
Tbh yea Guilliman got the longest end of the Emperor stick as far as the loyalists are concerned. It’s so funny going from the heresy era ‘Guillimans nascent empire’ to ‘you’re my only hope’ we see what you’re doing big Eagle you’re not fooling anyone
Rus and the Lion were the Chaos killers. The Lion was great at it, and did well to remove the worst of his infested hom planet, and Rus's shout likely was meant to destroy chaos. In fact, I believe that's why he was sent after Magnus, even if it wasn't meant to be a death blow.
Rus was never meant to wield the power, but to crush it.
Exterminators
It shows up in Valdor: Birth of the Imperium that he is starting to call them his sons.
If I recall correctly, Malcador is surprised he did so. But I do not remember if it was in jest or not.
@@edmundthespiffing2920No it was serious, he started calling them his sons when they were still babies. Malcador raised an eyebrow at it but he kept the fact he was surprised by it to himself. I think them being flung away by Chaos especially made him force himself to be more cold towards them, but as the Crusade went he started warming up to some of them yet. I think that's the only way it makes sense
@ironduke5058 perturbo's paranoïa comes from somewhere. The Emperor being cautious with his sons makes sense, I guess. But the Emperor is also known to have a weird, twisted sense of humor. Like how he named the Astartes after the scientist that helped make, then kill them. Maybe calling them his sons this early was just him making "a joke".
@@edmundthespiffing2920wasn't that a sign of respect? Still giving them her name when he could easily have erased her but instead just left her to live in peace
@@edmundthespiffing2920 it wasn't him making a joke.
I feel like this is more like redundant personalities whereas Big E would be more concerned with redundant jobs.
I would have said:
Vulkan & Ferrus Manus : Forgemaster
Lion El Johnson & Horus : Warmaster
Rogal Dorn & Perturabo : Siegemaster
Alpharius & Corvus Corax: Spymaster
Fulgrim & Lorgar: Culturemaster
Sanguinius & Konrad Curze: Scryermaster
Mortarion & Angron: Attritionmaster
Jaghatai Khan & Leman Russ: Executionmaster
Roboute Guilleman & REDACTED: Savantmaster
Magnus & REDACTED: Thronemaster
I think the Emperor just split himself up into all of his sons, maybe with the arrogance of thinking every part of him was valuable, and also not knowing that they would be separated so that he couldn't balance them properly and control how they grew up.
That’s the most positive things I’ve ever heard you say about Mortarion
Yeah a nice change
my headcannon is that magnus' counterpart was either the 2nd or the 11th just because he was the only uber mega alpha ++ psyker. It would explain why malcador and emps were so desperate to get magnus to not betray as they allready dissapeared the other option.
8:33 We still see Angrons honour and compassion after he becomes a Deamon. At the siege of terra he offers the defenders at the Space port a chance to surrender after Dorn has sent them there to die without their knowledge.
8:45
We need an animation of him walking along the fields, picking up a skull that he knows was someone close to him.
And have the davy jones quivering lip at the locket moment, before the nails replace his melancholy with hatred and rage
ANGRON WAS WILLING TO DIE FOR AND WITH A BUNCH OF SLAVES, who other primarch would do that, maybe vulkan would fight for them, but DIE FOR THEM?????? Only the red angel who was stolen from us
Perturabo was a textbook neurotic lol
Never satisfied always feeling slighted. A man child given demigod form.
Feel like Fulgrim really should be in one of those charismatic leader slots. How many primarchs can claim to have delivered a single speech that moved the Emperor so much he gave them his name and symbol for their Legion’s sole use. Not to mention Chemos. Fulgrim became leader and improved his home planet so much and never resorted to warfare or bloodshed. No other primarch can claim that. Just through charisma as well as engineering and administrative prowess.
Lets not forget angron wanted to be with his slave family so bad that he charged the emperor and ripped a fully armored custodies in half bare handed. BARE HANDED.
I mean primarch vs one custodes isnt much of a fair fight
@@everythingsalright1121 valdor beat dorn in his first fight with him
Valdor is the strongest and most experienced custodian . He beat dorn due to skill, not power
Valdor is clearly different. The King in Yellow.
Angron was the biggest tragedy, had the nails not been implanted, he would have lead vs Horus
I'd say Guilliman and Sangunius both represent optimism. Guilliman is consistently talking about the far future "where there is only peace," and Sangunius name literally means "comes from unwarranted optimism." (Yes, sanguine can mean blood, but it also means unwarranted optimism. That's the joke with the legion's name.) Not to mention the narrative connection they both have to that. The death of Sangunius represents the death of The Emperor's Dream. Guilliman's resurrection represents its rebirth.
Though you could say this is just a narrative representation. And maybe one of the lost Primarchs was an "empire builder" maybe based off Napoleon? As to why you only mention Guilliman once.
Lorgar is an empire builder as well.
Alpharius and Omegon being the scheming, constantly plotting and sneaky twins that just do stuff for the lolz while the rest of the family is trying, very poorly, to not rip each others heads off.
Shows what Corvus knew, Lion clapped daemon Angron’s cheeks
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Exactly. Sanguinius and Curze are equally matched and the Lion bests him too.
To be fair, Lion was trained for decades in the art of dueling. Sanguinius and Angron were created to be duelists, Lion achieved that position from his time growing up on a death world (in terms of skill in a duel, the only one who get close to Lion is Russ)
Angron grew up fighting men. Lion grew up fighting monsters, and thus when fighting daemon primarchs he's in his element. He fights almost on instinct at that point
The Lion's my favourite primarch but I think you're overestimating him. My understanding is taking Curze took multiple attempts, one of which Curze would have won were it not for Corswains intervention. Also while demon Angron is more powerful than pre demon Angron, he is also dumber and probably an easier match up for the Lion who is a specialist monster slayer.
The Lion is absolutely a top tier fighter but Horus, Russ, Sanguinius, Curze and Angron are all his equals up there. Possibly Jagetai or even Fulgrim (despite his image) too.
So yeah Corvus was wrong but I dont think Russ is Lion's only equal. Sanguinius probably beats Lion in fact, he's the living weapon. Lion is more a complete warrior commander on all levels.
Lion has the Emperor’s shield
@@TheUncivilizedNation clapped 👏🏻 his 👏🏻 cheeks 👏🏻
Dorn and Gulliman had larger legions because they absorbed the legions of the fallen primarchs preheresy. Malcador erased the memories of both primarchs at their own request
So do those old geneseed Space Marines still exist, and were their memories wiped? It sounds far-fetched.
Honestly, I believe The emperor gave up on Angron on purpose, because he represents something The emperor doesn't need. But, what do you guys think?
The Emperor (& Malcador) believed they could return the Primarch after their death.
This means the Emperor pushed Angron to fight in the Reunification Wars until he was near death (by the butcher's nails) because Big E was on a short timeline.
Yes, because Angron put the lives of those he cared for LESS than his desire to save.
He chose to die with them as one unit than to save them as their savior. Angron needed to only join with the Emperor and command his legion, consequences be damed.
@@Technoanima No wonder, why Angron betrayed against his father.
Jimmy Space is to be nice not the biggest fan of defiance. Angry Ron said no and needed to be punished, the 50 gladiators could have been saved no problem but because Angron defined big E he let them die.
@lukeBryen2 The emperor was getting rid of his emotions, just to save humanity and Angron representing one of them.
For dualist and swordmasters I thought it was said that Lion El’Johnson was near unmatched at both with maybe sanguinius taking him in the full dueling. But I thought he was supposed to be the most skilled primarch with a sword
Gulliman has always had middle child vibes
The one that fixes the mistakes of the eldest brothers and rallies the lazy young ones to order?
Makes sense. The fix it all of the family.
So what, they all have
1 Primary Aspect
That which they are best at, say Siege warfare
2 Secondary Aspect
That trait they are a substitute for, say Fortification
3 Adopted/Learned Aspect
Personal experience that may subvert their genetics, say cold Patience
It would be interesting to chart this all out and see what the missing primarchs would likely cover.
In my opinion, i think that Perturabo should be replaced with Vulkan in the whole resiliant warrior trope here. Not only was he a perpetual that would not stop fighting after death over and over, but his legion kept up the footslogging, hard to kill parallel that the death guard have. Also, it just helps it stay continuous with the pattern of there being one loyalist and one traitor with each of these roles.
The logistics guys: Guilliman and Perturabo.
The animals: Lion and Leman Russ.
Fulgrim was shown to be gifted at administration because he turned his home world around from a resorceless dump into a civilized world.
The Lion is definitely should get a nod in charisma. His first observed meeting with Horus made everyone present kneel to him. He has the kingly aura that only the Emperor has.
I guess, the differentiation there is that the Lion himself isn't actually able to move people with his words like the others. He has a great aura but he isn't able to lead and communicate with his lessers.
If I remember correctly, he often conferred the role of communication to Luther.
Vulkan killing an Aeldari child
"Lol" says Kurze
"LMAO" says the Night Lords
Here are what I think the Primarchs are for
WarMaster:
Lion
Horus
Legislatior:
Guilliman
Dorn
Enforcer:
Russ
Alph/Omg
Face (The face of the IOM):
Sanguinius
Fulgrim
Assassin:
Corex
Curze
Ones take control of the Mechanicus:
Manus
Perturabo
Anti-Demon/warp:
Mortarian
Khan
Battery for the Golden Throne:
Magnus
Logar
Soemthing to do with morailty:
Vulkan
Angron
Angron Best duelist.
Lion: Bet
I feel like Girlyman and Perty functioned as back ups for so many different situations because they were two that the big E would have used the most (Minus Magnus) after the war. Both of them were brilliant when I came to logistics and both would have been essential perty (for infrastructure and construction) and Girly (Logistics and politics)
It almost seems like the other primarchs were expected to take each other out after the Crusade, and the Emperor would just use a handful of them who were left to maintain peace and order until they died and regular humans could take over, maybe 10-20K years later.
Of course Vulcan would stick around forever, but he was the most empathetic to regular humans. A perfect Primarch to keep on hand if humanity needs a defender...
It is all silly speculation of course.
In 40k he still hasn't changed much. He is still keeping secrets
6:40 Yes. YES. Absolutely right. Its actually a big part of why Angron is my favorite primarch. His ability was to be able to feel and take on the pain of others. Instead of healing bodies, he healed spirits. He was to be the primarch of compassion. Its why his fall to the nails is so terribly sad. He yearned for freedom as a slave, but not for himself. He wanted his brothers to be free, because he loved them, and understood their plight. He could've probably escaped whenever he wanted on his own, as he is a primarch, but it would've meant nothing to him if his comrades, brothers and sisters in arms, weren't able to enjoy that freedom as well. Its why he wished to die with his comrades, instead of live on without them. I fully believe that, while he would never get rid of the damage of the nails, if the Emperor sent down a contingent of Warhounds to aid Angron, his loyalty wouldve been secured first and foremost, but, more importantly, he would've been able to find a way to cope better with the nails. Learn to become less bloodthirsty and hateful, and possibly work with the Emperor's and Mechanicus's tech to alleviate some of the suffering. But even if tech wasn't possible at all, he still had a better chance for a noble life that, at one time, Angron did want for himself.
Angron without the nails would've absolutely been someone like Vulkan in personality and Legion culture. Angron just would've been the compassionate warrior, while Vulkan the compassionate craftsman (which, Vulkan absolutely still is a warrior, but its like you said, theres overlap, like how Ferrus was also a master craftsman, as was Fulgrim).
Ferrus manus special ability
Getting more credit than he deserves and dieing ez
guilliman and the khan, the only two functional adults
Alpharius has a built in redundancy, Omegon....
But is there a third?
Started watching the vid. I'm guessing Angron is the same with Vulkan? I heard Angry Ron was supposed to be a really nice dude before the angy nails
(I was right)
16:16 they are so similar, that when I first got into the lore I thought, that they where the same caracter at first
I get them confused all the time
Perty was denied making the imperial palace cause unlike Dorn who cares about human lives perty doesn't
I think there are nuances beyond simple redundancy that are fun to think about in terms of the Emperor's intended roles for the Primarchs. For example, it's well established that foresight isn't simply seeing the future or having knowledge of exactly what's going to happen or anything like that. I think it's fun to think about Sanguinius and Konrad Curze not as redundant because both possessed the gift of foresight, but as similar and complimentary. Sanguinius' foresight may have been intended to be an optimistic view of future events and Curze may have been intended to be a pessimistic view, both views valuable in giving counsel to the Emperor, who possessed his own vision of the future.
I also just think each of them is a facet of the Emperor, and that is why they all balance out in this way. Likely, if they hadn't been separated, the Emperor could have guided them to all be complementary like this and have avoided the unintended consequences of clashing personalities (though some of those clashes were clearly intended).
Psykic Foresight: Sanguinius and Konrad Kurze!
Magnus, “Am I a joke to you?”
Yes.- Sanguinius and Kurze probably
Angron is like an abused pitbull.
Russ can be compared with a lot of other primarchs. With his penchant for aggressive fighting he could be compared to Horus, for his skill in single combat he could be compared to the Lion, for his swift and decisive action along with rationally deceptive barbarism, he could be compared to the Khan. There was only two primarchs he believed could beat him and those were Conrad because of his madness and wild nature and Sanguinious for his sheer awesome power. He was a duelist, a hunter, and likely designed as the Emperors tool to subjugate, incapacitate, or destroy his other sons.
I love Russ' attack on Horus after he has submitted to the ruinous powers; His entire fleet flies recklessly at Horus', with him at the tip of the vanguard (spear), and then he runs straight at Horus recklessly, and then in the fight he takes a hit so that he can strike Horus with the Emperor's spear just once, making a wound that will never heal, and then they talk briefly, and he mentally stabs him, sowing doubt in a wound that never heals. Every step of the way everything is a fractal metaphor of different levels of the spear and the wound that ends up staying with Horus right up to the end. It is epic af.
@@inthefade When you want to ambush an enemy who is in a secure location, fly through the gap between two binary stars to get him when he is vulnerable.
Another fun thing that’s apart of my head canon is that from everything I’ve read and seen the emperor more than likely wanted the other Perpetuals to be his primary leaders but due to his grand ambitions and conquering of mankind they all went away one by one so he just filled those roles with the Primarchs.
Compassion is surely Vulkan and the Raven Lord
In the new codex for dark angels it mentions that Lion can sort 'forest walk' and even bring people with him. He can travel to different planets with it. and he can apparently also stand in a room and be unoticed when he's watching over his various successor chapters. Why he spies on them is not told but apparently he can do this and be unnoticed until he wants to be.
can we say gulliman is a redundancy to the emperor
I say Guilliman is a redundancy to Malcador, Sanguinius fits better as a second emperor
@@NP3GA yeah, at some point malcador was running the empire
That sounds like some reverse psychology anti Guilliman talk. Directly comparing him to the Emperor to cause dissent.
I always viewed the Lion as the Emperor's Paladin, his guardian against the dark threats that were out there and his bulwark against Chaos.
The thing with Lorgar surprised me completely: I would commented on his psychic abilities and also I doesn't guess, that he is considered as a inspiring leader.
The Emperor bet the house on Perturabo
I accidentally did three with perturabo but honestly he was kind of just a jack of all trades
It's gonna slap so hard when Conrad's spirit stirs in the warp, proving him wrong
Big E set up the 20 as specific aspects, and double as a redundancy. Also, he was working on the Golden Throne/Beacon, while having Dorn reinforce the Palace. Big E knew things would happen, and prepared for it. There was a reason for all the competition between the Primarchs, and some were very clear cut. The issue is 2 and 11. Not knowing them, or why they were redacted. Alpha Legion would be the hardest to find a counter. Some would say Dark Angels, but they couldn't touch some of the intricate plans that A.L. could. If a different Warmaster were to be assigned, it would have been Sanguinius. Sanguinius demanded art, craftsmanship, as well as battle mastery, and statesmanship. He is even depicted as trying to diffuse tense situations, never speculated on who would beat who, and could be serious or playful, when it was needed.
i think you missed an importsnt category, the diplomat/politician. both fulgrim and horus are shown to use diplomacy often, and are quite good it at
Didn't the Ultramarines have the most peaceful compliances? With those two coming in behind them I think?
Gman-Fulgrim = diplomats
Dorn-Perturabo = builders
Magnus-A/O = knowledge seekers
Sanguinius-Angron = attack dogs
Lion-Horus = leaders
Corax-Curze = spies
Jaghatai-Leman = hunters
Ferrus-Vulkan = craftsmen
only Mortarion and Lorgar that have no contingency but maybe those are the 2nd and 11th
Magnus-Mortarion= psyker. Like Angron, Morty was broken and redundant when found. More useful as a destroyer than the resources necessary to fix him.
hard not to consider lorgar a knowledge seeker, you know since he did all that chaos pilgrimage thing
Perturabo is such an underrated primarch. I wish he would get more love in the lore.
I would put Fulgrim above Perty on the "endurance" category, we see Fulgrim getting blown to pieces multiple times while still being able to carry on and fight like nothing had happened.
Also Fulgrim could be acknowledged as standing out in a couple more categories beyond finesse fighter. Charismatic leader, craftsman, innovator, civilization builder etc
I see aspects of Lorgar, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Perturabo, Guilliman in his proclivities
only thing that I'd say about this is about the "Though" category, which I think is a 3 way tie between perty, morty and vulkan.
Yeah, Vulkan just tanked his way through Magnus psychically obliterating him over and over again. Fulgrim also had a hell of a healing factor.
According to the napkin where the emperor scribbled his plans Guilliman was supposed to fuck up eldar just like Vulkan, but he forgot to ad "up" in the notes.
I think one category you might have missed is the Criticisers. The Primarchs who weren’t afraid to look the Big E in the eye and tell him he’s doing a bad job at something and tell him how to change it.
Despite how much people hate criticism it’s important to note that the best way people can do a job is for someone to just openly say “your method is shit here try it this way”
I think this role is full filled best by Mortarion and Jaghatai Khan.
Jaghatai was known to be the one with the most common sense out of all the Primarchs and was well known for he and Emperor not being on the best of terms relationship wise, he saw the council of Nikea as folly and disobeying it out of hand as well as being the only Primarchs to actually negotiate with Big E on their first meeting.
Mortarion however had his purpose twisted by the hatred he had developed on Barbados as a byproduct by his upbringing and in the end it did turn into Hypocrisy rather than criticism.
I could be wrong and if anyone feels this role belongs to someone else feel free to comment down below.
The Khan was expected to be a traitor by most.
@@inthefadeyeah agreed but I think that was because, Like Mortarion his purpose was altered by his environment making him more of a free spirit who just wanted to go out and do his own thing and leave the proper politics to Guilliman and others who were more suited for it. But still could see the flaws in certain proclamation.
It seems that Mortarion was the more outspoken, push for change Critisiser(by that I mean the guy who would be the one to pressure you into changing something and will continue to apply pressure until it changes) whilst Khan was more the more quiet observer think things through and give your constructive arguement kind of criticiser.
I’ll admit now that I look at it after all this time my comment does seem a little bit weird but it was just something I noticed and wanted to say.
I would argue Leman Russ and Angron are the redundancy match. Loyalty and animalistic traits. Had Angron not had the nails, he could have been a very effective attack dog.
Angron really got unlucky with his planet tbh... Swap Guilliman from Ultramar and it would have been the ultramarines getting the nails into them.
Every garrison duty for the iron warriors wasthe opportunity for exquisite architecture, they could have really BUILT their bits of the imperium
Favorite thing about Abaddon is that he’s not a Primarch, but will gladly war against them
"None of the Primarchs were disposable, per se"...
The Primarchs of the II and XI Legions would beg to differ! 💀😱😬
Well that is up for debate. I personally believe that their death was a hard choice and their deaths did hamper the emperor in some way. Heck everyone was extremely bothered by their deaths.
The 11th primarch probably fell to Malal/Malice(or at least that’s my headcanon) and as such had to be killed.
I’m not sure about the 2nd Primarch but if Sanguinius claims from the book Fear to tread were to be believed then he probably fell to a gene flaw along with the rest of his legion and had to be culled.
@@lachlanevans5013
No, of course! I agree entirely. I was being flippant for a cheap laugh!
@@TheLiberChaotica okay fair enough
Id like to also add that corax also had a whole family structure more or less and kurze had dead rats he had to brutalize just to get sustenance
1:00 i call dips on this
World eaters without angron not only would be good but better than ever
This is a great concept and a great video!
You are spot on regarding Malcador's "redundancy", plans, with plans, with backups, with backups.
I think that 1-to-1 redundancies aren't really the way it works either, just as you said.
Some primarchs are extreme specialists, like Magnus.
Some primarchs are "meant to guard the hearth" while others are march wardens.
The 7th was clearly meant to guard the hearth.
The primarchs' and their legions' roles (which are linked) are more important than their specific specialisms however.
Guilliman is a march warden. Even the name "Ultramar" hearkens to "Outremer", the furthest of the realm.
Guilliman's talents are a reflection of what role he was created to fill, not the other way around.
On the fringes on Imperial Space, logistics are key. He builds empire because that's what you do on the border.
He is a civilizer because it is necessary to maintain order on the fringe.
This multi-talented teir set helps explain how some primarchs seem to have many abilities while others do not.
Dorn is a great builder, he is enduring, steadfast, resolute, a great defender and siege master. He is supremely ordered and although not an innovator, he still practices excellent gamesmanship.
Perturabo IS an innovator, but he's also prone to depression, immaturity, rage, and getting played (Fulgrim style).
The Lion, as stated in his primarch novel, was the archetype upon which all his other brothers were based.
He, as of his primarch novel, had never lost a battle or a fight according to the narrator.
Magnus regarded him as a scholar. He choked off high level psykers simply through the power of will.
It is stated in several books that he was the expert hunter (Unremembered Empire, Angels of Caliban, his primarch novel).
Apparently, between his first and second duels with the Krave, he learned to resist their kinetic force psyker attacks.
In his fight with Russ, he disarmed him in the opening moments easily, considering the fight over.
He tricked Fateweaver, repaired the Invincible Reason's warp core, defeated Curze twice, and conquered more worlds than any 2 of his brothers combined.
He thought like his father. He enforced the will of his father, even knowing what he wanted without having to speak to him.
He seemed to have a share in all the gifts of his brothers.
Why did he get all of these talents?
The 1st was made to be alone, to be sufficient to any task, which is not true of any other legion to such an extent.
The 13th also has a similar capacity, but not to such an extent.
Horus was a great general and figurehead, but the 16th would never be able to defeat the 1st.
This is all to say that they fill roles and have skills and inclinations to different degrees to accomplish those roles.
I like the Dorn and Guilliman point. Especially since they both had to fight the alpha legion which is a force designed to break down their very strengths
You know looking at that image. A warhammer 40k Primarch VS Fighting game would be 🔥
I believe one of the White scars horus heresy books, they found essencially another throne and one of the white scars librarians knew it was meant for Jagathai to sit on, while the one in terra was meant for magnus. One of the librarians decided to save the fleet/ship by sitting and burning himself out on said chair to open a way out. I believe the implication was that Jagathai is actually gifted, but doesn't really know how to use his powers.
Holy shit
Primarch MBTI
I'm kinda new to the lore, but for all the vieos i saw, is somewhat clear that angron and sanguinus went to opposite situations from what they are created for. Angron was create to be the mroe empathetic and Sanginus (and if si canon the angell protytipe thing i read) sounds more whas built to be the wardog of the imperium ( the blood curse is not a bug but a feature and everything), but their experiences after they got warped molded than to the oppposite situations
I didn’t know Perturabo could learn from anything he saw. That explains the paintings in Malcador’s collection that the Emperor deemed too dangerous for Perturabo to see.
Even worse. Before that power awakened in him his greatest joy was learning new things. Now he can't gain any pleasure from experimentation. Imagine if your favorite source of happiness was reading mystery novels....but then one day gained magical foresight that spoiled the plot every time you cracked a book.
The Lion falls under quite a few more archetypes. Hes also a hunter, he has the psychic ability to "forest walk" to anywhere he wants to go, he also has the charisma as stated in Son of the Forest.
Vulcan has the aspect of compassion!
*vulcan killing an eldar child*
I always thought the Ultramarines and the Emperor’s Children were redundancies, both Legions are generalists and their Primarchs are skilled diplomats
When you put the Hunters, I want to point out something: Both Russ and the Khan are also the spiritualists among the Primarchs, bearing an understanding of the warp that is tied to their homeworlds and unique disciplines. This also shapes the way their Psykers work (Rune Priests and Stormseers), just one was willing to admit that his sons were using home-flavored warp magic while the other wasn't.
EDIT: I remembered another thing that I don't think I heard during the video, the Anti-Psykers: Royal Dorn and Leman Russ. Both had the incredible ability to shut down the warp in a localized area: Leman's Roar and Rogal's Anti-Warp Aura.
Konrad: He just does exactly what I do!
Corvus: But better.
Aw sweet, it's the Twin Primarch theory-
Wait, this isn't Arthur Bones' channel