Giving up Historical Wargaming: I’m a bad person, and I never knew it….
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
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So it was recently brought to my attention that I am a very very bad man.... you see i like to play historical wargaming and I have a tendency to enjoy playing WW2 games with Germans. I never realised how bad I was for doing that and so I am giving up historicals and instead taking something safe like the megalomania and world domination of 40k.....
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#wargaming
#historical
#midwinter
Wargaming is playing with toy soldiers for entertainment. Those who can not tell the difference have greater issues.
Completely
Very well said, sir, very well said
Oh I’m sorry did I just assume your gender forgive me😉
@@SGusky Boomer here, I am not fragile like the kiddies are. No problem.
Same as those who point at renactors because... You know.
It’s probably okay to be into painting WW2 Germans as long as your not too into WW2 Germans! This all reminds me of that Peep Show episode where Mark gets into re-enacting and his mate Daryl is just a bit too into his WW2 Germany ‘getting into character’ if you catch my drift
I have always been vehemently anti war and always been a wargamer. I have a german SS panzer battalion for Flames of war. I belIeve If we don't study and understand the horrors that always occur in conflict we will repeat them. I have been to the battlefeild museum at Arnham very moving.The Vet at Arnham has it right we need to remember the sacrifice of the brave men and watch our foolish leaders who send them to die.
well said mate
It's Arnhem
Thank you for standing up for historical gaming!
i love it and would hate that others might be put off by this sort of stupidity
Dude, I watched that video as well, and felt pretty close to your thoughts. I love gaming and modeling German WWII stuff, because I love the look, not because I'm a Nazi!
It's hard to argue that they had some of the best looking kit!
Me too. I don't even love the look. My son wanted to play the British.
They're the grey team 🤷🏻 and as they're the bad guys you won't feel bad about losing I suppose
I bet they don't have a problem playing the Russians.. who were arguably as bad (or worse).
Out of curiosity where did this all arise? I heard about it on another channel too
I saw that video and had the exact same thoughts. There was a particular line about 40k being fun because it wasn't based on reality, which seemed to completely ignore that 40k was originally steeped in our history, the designers just called everything different names. The Imperium is essentially the regimes from the 1930/40s combined and it's not even hidden - commissars, nukes and supermen. Pretty obvious stuff really.
yeah what I know about 40k would match your comments, but apparently that's OK because it never happened....
Duh
Don’t You know?
40K is about peace and love
That’s why it’s okay to play.
These factions have nothing violent or xenophobic, imperialist about them at all !
:D
the Imperium of Man is a parody of the 1978-1990 UK under Margret Thatcher, wich agressively repressed all political and cultural diviation. (like punks, skins (not the right wing boneheads but the initial movement), migrants etc were agressively repressed, nationalism was strongly supported, dissolution of the welfare state etc)
The really funny thing is, you'll almost never hear a historical wargaming fan be like "Actually the Nazis did nothing wrong" but PLENTY of 40k fans will openly insist that the Imperium does nothing wrong. So it seems the real difference between one being reality and the other being fantasy, is that it's a lot easier to convince people to accept these ideas if it's fantasy.
Huh, kinda undercuts that whole fool's argument.
I love the commutes response to that video which has gone down like a lead ballon. Being a younger gamer who came over from the 40k community I find the Bolt Action community to be one of the most sensible, level headed and welcoming communities about.
i do agree
I wouldn't take any morality lessons from him quite frankly given his track record of late
@@DJRockford83 hmm, I can't possibly think what you'd be referring to 😂
Politics has nothing to do with it. It is all about fashion. Victory goes to the best dressed army.
So THAT'S why the Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars lasted so long... There was so much fashion going on on all sides it just took THAT long to work out who was the best dressed
@@SonOfSalop all conflicts of the 18th century were just very bloody games of rate my fit.
My dad was a POW under the Germans, captured in 1940 full of MG bullets. Anyway, he said that you might not like the German's but he loved their uniform! 😁
Those with the fanciest drummers 😀
You mean the best painted army of course
Well said, Dom! We have an old saying in the Intensive Care Unit, " You can't stop stupid. You can only sedate it."
I'm off to paint some Crusaders because they never did anything wrong 😂 Deus Vult!
That’s funny.
love that!
Deus Vult! 👍🏻🎅👍🏻🤣
Midwinter Minis obviously missed the mark horribly with his video, I mean I'm Jewish with an SS force. I had no idea I could be a Nazi.
But perhaps his video won't be bad for bolt action, the comments in the video poured scorn on his insinuations and the tanks they painted up looked great.
How many people are going to think fuck you I'm not a Nazi and I'm going to pick up that box of Germans that you've told me is way cheaper than warhammer for the game that you've told me is way better than Warhammer?
😂 I know right? I don't actually play WW2 historicals but collect medieval historicals and it was just a really weird and poorly advised stance to take. Like, big serious script meanwhile there's some nice painting going on in the background. Like discussing his Granny's casual racism buy praising her knitting or something. Doubt he'll do an apology, though.
i hope it wont be bad for BA - I would love to see more people come over from 40k etc to try historical but the suggestion they might be Nazis probably wont help...
yeah it was odd indeed but like you i doubt there will be any response
Thank you for a good video Dom. Most historical gamers tend to learn more about history than the average person, and what consequences battles have had on our history.
that's my experience too mate
Exactamento. Most wargamers tend to have a far better grasp of history than Joe Public. Indeed, you can’t really enjoy the hobby without it leading inevitably to a better understanding of the past.
And we like to teach people on the historical value of that scenario or game..of what actually happened, and why ..not to win at all cost but to keep history alive
Completely agree. I learned almost all my history through historical gaming of some sort. Military history is always more exciting than regular dry history. And humans have been fighting each other every year since we evolved from apes so every battle indirectly tells the human story.
It’s unnerving how much we let history repeat itself. I see things today in 2023 that happened just before WW2 and American politics devolve into vicious mudslinging just like it did in the 1700’s. Nothing has changed because people keep ignoring history.
We use wargaming as a tool to teach history.
we need to teach history better these days - it sheds so much on the path we take for the future
Great Arnhem Para story! Thank you for recognising the tactics of those who would control and manipulate our passionate historical interests given half the chance, they are generally less well-read on authoritarian measures than many in the hobby, and perhaps have become blinded by their own rose-tinted glasses - they have become what they claim to despise.
I live in a country that was occupied for 5 years, yet I have 3 german armies, and a Napoleonic french, colonial british, confederates and yes, Romans. I am apparently bad to the bone. (George Thorogood playing in the background ). I'm not giving up on historical gaming, in fact I'm planning an 1880's Dutch colonial army. I have however given up on Mwm. Just keep going, all of you bad seeds.😇😆
good man!
My favourite part to the preachy video in question was the profiteering from the World of Warships ad :D
true that was a step too far for me too
As someone who was first introduced to Historical Wargaming at the age of 4 (English Civil War, Ancient as well as WW1 and WW2), I'm 51 now. I have never had any problems using the WW2 Axis forces in games. Its understood, I Hope that it is a Historical representation of an actual event, not the actual event. Its the Historical, Tactical/Game mechanics and Camaraderie gained from playing the game, from my experience that is important. Playing the "Bad Guy" in any game should be seen in the same way, What We do is take a subject that is all about conflict and make it about meeting people and sharing good times, In Historical Gaming I believe, we also have an understanding of the real situations the games are based on, hopefully making us more aware of what happened and understanding of those who where witnesses or involved in these moments in our collective history. Also to echo comments made by others, I like many have Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts and other family members who experienced WW2. (This is the same comment I made on Midwinter Minis page regarding the Video in question)
I also as a much younger gamer, at a show in Derby in the 80's , with my Dad and younger Brother met someone just like you did. They said much the same as the Gentleman you met.
well said sir, thank you
they were a special generation for sure
I feel like guys take on it was a lot of people will avoid historical wargaming because they have a hard time detaching the game from the actual historical events, whereas something like Warhammer is so far from reality that its easier on some people's concience, i just dont believe he expressed it in a very thought out way.
i hope that was it yes
These people are idiots. Im not sure what is happening to the world....100% agree with everything you say! Thank you for standing up for the hobby we all love!
cheers mate - that's all i was trying to do as I would hate anyone - especially younger people - getting put off trying historicals because of such rubbish
The big boom in figures wargaming stared in the late 50s to early 60s. Many of the main characters, (at least in the UK) like Brigadier Peter Young (commandos) and Don Featherstone (North Africa) had actually fought the Germans, and were presumably not keen on the N*** chaps. I don't expect that they always played on the allied side in wargames.
indeed not, and no one could accuse them of not knowing the horror of war
Part of the reason I play Team Yankee is because it combines the attention to detail and research of historical wargaming while playing a war that never happened.
I can see that. Enjoy mate
⭐ Excellent point well made Dom - I watched an interesting documentary about the Vikings once where the presenter commented how she found it bizarre that people would want to spend their weekends as Viking re-enactors, whilst those same people would be justly be horrified at anyone wanting to dress up as members of the SS…her point being that the horrors inflicted over 1000 years ago may have faded from common memory but horror is horror and history is history
Anyone I have ever met in the gaming or modelling world has generally had either extensive knowledge or a very good understanding of whatever period they were interested in, but that awareness commonly fosters a sensitivity that allows a game to remain a game⭐
Crack on with the historics 👍
And what about all the idolization and celebration of Pirates? Essentially thieves murders of the sea? Was the 18th cent so different than the modern pirates off the coast of Africa today?
The vikings were a truly fascinating people in their own right - brutal at times, but capable of amazing crafting, trade and exploration.... nothing is black and white!
very true
@@BootsontheTable - I agree wholeheartedly but as part of that incredibly rich culture slave trading provided a great deal of their finance…by the same token the Comanche were also a fascinating peoples with their own belief system and a history many thousands of years old, but unless you were a Comanche yourself you were never going to last long as a neighbour…if you were in the way of the Roman Army you could probably measure your life out in days or minutes…researching what you were never taught is a great side of the hobby and the models I paint are the result of what I read….what I enjoy most is that everyone has a slightly different take on the same subjects
Aaaah, the Vikings, another misunderstood group.
What a heartbreaking story at the end. Really shows you what the truth of historical wargaming is
cheers - that's a true lost generation
Very good vid dom.
As you say don’t just go blindly into the future but always keep one eye on the past. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others
I wish that were true
absolutely and thanks
“How about the Mongols” sighs and chucks the box. Haha! Great video Dom!
cheers mate :)
Loved every single point you made. The sarcasm was master class.
thank you :)
This is a really solid video, a great response to the aforementioned take we all seem to be batting about right now, one way or another. I really respect your professional and historically well-researched response. I guess it's the ugly truth that yeah, SOME people might have some pretty nasty opinions or beliefs, they might ascribe to offensive or intolerant ideologies, and those people COULD end up in the wider wargaming hobby, sure, but they could just as easily end up in the stamp-collecting hobby, or the mini golfing community, and we really should be careful not to make any assumptions about people or their attitudes based on their hobbying preferences. Any such people or person will never represent the passion and enthusiasm of historical wargaming hobbyists in any meaningful sense, and they would find themselves very much unwelcome among us if they tried to assert otherwise, and rightly so. People play these games and collect these armies out of love, or admiration for history, for the artistry of it, and any hypothetical fascist or racist or what have you would be as utterly despised by them as they are by the rest of society.
cheers - all i can say is that in 35 years or more playing historical games I struggle to remember anyone who shows fascist tendencies associated with the armies they play
@@BootsontheTable Admittedly I've not got my glasses on but when I first saw that I thought you said 'in 85 years or more' like damn you've aged well
I became a historical gamer to avoid the brain dead hot takes of GW only fans. Hopefully they'll stay away.
i would love some more players to come over to historicals but i worry this sort of video risks putting them off
@@BootsontheTable the ones with actual sense will know what's up. The 40k community went to shit because it didn't gatekeep "those people", if you catch my drift.
Thank you, i know that channel and felt the same.
Very well put together response I hope it’s seen by the relevant people and the point is made.
I doubt a tiny tadpole like me would be recognised by a massive channel like them
Great video Dom. H.G. Wells, who in a commercial sense deserves large credit for the creation of our hobby, was an outspoken pacifist. The wars fought with miniature soldiers do not kill or enslave anyone (shut up, wallet!), and can be used to educate people about the consequences of conflict as well. Moreover it develops craftsmanship and a love of history. I was a soldier, and I have no use for war, but gaming gives me both pleasure and perspective, as well as comradeship. I barely have enough time to paint outside of my busy professional life, and I certainly will not waste any of that time on haters. Cheers to you and your boots, good sir!!
well said my friend
Glad im not the only one that felt that way. Looking forward to watching more of your content
thank you - normally its much less 'controversial' than this!
Well Dom, I personally do not play WW2 Germans because I had family members kill in the holocaust, now it has taken me some 30 years to allow myself to play Kriegsmarine forces and just recently Luftwaffe planes. Now I have played with German ground forces out of curtesy to my fellow players when offered them as a learning situations, or a club game. They do have all the best toys. Your right historically nobody has clean hands, but we should recognized those and understand what was happening at that time, not for justification but an understanding of historical impact of the world and society at that time. But anyone can play anything as long as they have fun and we hope they get a strong camaraderie with other players.
i entirely understand that perspective and have mates who have similar family histories
Excellent video Dom, really great to see it doing so well too.
I watched the video in question. The first I’ve before I realised that it had caused a bit of a ripple in the historical community, then I watched it again to make sure I hadn’t missed anything. Aside from them showing how easy it can be to paint Bolt Action tanks, which I think is a great thing regardless of the accuracy of schemes etc, we need channels of that size potentially drawing hobbyists over to historical games, the rest of it was bizarre. I felt the whole thing was terribly thought out, they are clearly uninformed, making some poorly thought out comments, possibly on their own personal thoughts on how comfortable they would feel about playing Germans in WW2. Those feelings are of course complete valid, but they were lazily turned into a reason why ‘historical’s were less popular than sci-fi and fantasy, which is complete wrong, one market is just more popular than another.
I think the topic of what’s acceptable to wargame is a completely fair one, it’s one we have in the community ourselves from time to time, especially in relation to modern theatres. I think of they stuck to that alone, rather than the lazy n*** discussion then it would have been fine. For what it’s worth I’m completely with your point of view on that topic I think, but even then I wouldn’t be interested in modern stuff, but wouldn’t judge those who are.
But I really liked your response, and agree with all your counters. Having watched their video twice now, I really don’t think they were calling all WW2 German players N***’s, I think it was terribly scripted and put together, just not researched or thought out properly, Bon them not know if they feel comfortable wit something. The blanket term ‘historicals’ used throughout shows they were well out of their depth on this topic, and they really should have just focused on the painting side of the video.
Great stuff, more like this please Dom.
Cheers mate. It's not really in my comfort zone to do do these sorts of things but the video made my blood boil and so it seems many others!
Midwinter Mini's video is an example of what I like to call 'prog logic' e.g. the idea that because you like WW2 German tanks, therefore you must also like the ideology of the tank crew. This is total balderdash of course, and the current like/dislike ratio on his video is approximately 6.5k likes to 12k dislikes because most people know it's balderdash.
yeah i would hope that he would do a correction video but that probably isnt likely
Great video Dom! Well done. I do think it is important to have an understanding of the factions and their background. For me it is stop and remember that they were real people.
Do you have a link to the video you reference?
just look for Midwinter Minis mate
I think a quote from Per from Sabaton does quite well here.
“Your not offended by our Music, your offended by history”
And same applies to historical wargaming. They’re not offended by the models, their offended by the history the models represent. Something that can never be changed, but can be learned from.
true
I saw that video and did think it was an odd take from an otherwise pretty sound chap. I'd like to think my wargaming friends are just interested in history and gaming same as me rather than being actual Nasties - if I found out they were actual Nasties then they can get in the bin - life is too short to waste on the hard of thinking after all.
Midwinter stirred up controversy to overcloud another controversy on him leaving his children to have his cohost.
I've encountered people with alt-right/nazi sympathies many times, and a startling number of them do gravitate towards our hobby to fanboy and faun over their insane predecessors. I'm glad to hear that you have the sense to kick them to the curb, I've lost friends because they didn't, and got sucked into another person's crazy.
@@SigvaldtheMagnificentPrince But that happened a year ago, so why do this now then?
agreed
How could any wargamer today be members of a political party that was disbanded in 1945?
Spot on!!
Having seen said video now, it's clear that the individual was making ill informed assumptions on historical wargaming which a slight bit of research could have prevented
Thank you
Yep, there's no helping the truly stupid!
Yeah i noticed that video, me looking at my Bolt Action Winter German force.... "Hans, are we the baddies"?
clearly yes!
"what did the romans ever do for us?" cheeky life of brian quote and im here for it :D
;)
Good one! I feel a bit of a community joint rant!
Seems to have upset a lot of people mate
Love the video man, thanks for covering this topic! Love the tongue and cheek XD
Welcome. I felt it had to be said as I and everyone I know in the hobby were angry at the original video
Excellent video and completely agree, I've not found Mids videos unbearable in the past but this time... jaysus, couldn't hack it.
cheers
I’ve watched this video again from beginning to end. You must have been honoured to be able to speak to and listen to that Para.
They were amazing men.
The next generation showed that 38 years later that they were still the best Assault troops in the world.
I wish I’d seen that game.
Great video Dom.
he was a gent for sure
Good point Dom, I don’t think I would game SS Germans in 2WW and do feel very uncomfortable stood next to SS reinactors but I’m quite happily to play DAK and Falschurmjager.
War is hell. Doesn’t matter when doesn’t matter where. I find most wargamers are generally well read and have a better understanding of history than most.
true mate - thanks
I have an SS army for Bolt Action. They had the coolest camouflage schemes and were the true "big baddies" of the setting. Who doesn't love playing as the baddies now and again? I also have an Indian North Africa army, US Paratroopers and a French Resistance partisan force but nobody ever questions my politics for playing those.
the German stuff does look damn cool for sure
The mentioned video is a good demonstration how historical wargaming is clearly not for everyone. It came off as rather ignorant and childish.
yeah and that's fine but don't risk putting people off trying historicals by accusing them of harbouring nazi tendencies
" What did the romans ever do for us?"
I'm crying.😂😂😂
:)
I love how they all just brush over the Soviet atrocities.
Few nations in war are truly guilt free, some are worse than others!
But the Soviets were on "our side", at least through part of the war....so nope, being the worst offenders when it comes to murdering their own people, treatment of PoWs etc etc etc doesn't make them bad does it!? They were the good guys! /s
Do you think bringing up what-aboutisms in regard to Soviet atrocities makes you sound like more of, or less of, the type problematic reactionary found in this hobby space and alluded to in the aforementioned 'unnamed video'?
@@paulstallings1177 >uses “reactionary” unironically
>commie detected
@@paulstallings1177 "problematic reactionary" buzzword buzzword buzzword
Calm down. They're toy soldiers.
Great video! I used to play a lot of WW2 naval, and we did a homebrew Murmansk Run campaign where we had to escort merchant ships to the USSR. Then I was working in my parent's store and a regular customer, and elderly gent, came in for his usual pint of whiskey, and I finally noticed the hat he was wearing. It said "Veteran - US Merchant Marine." So I asked him about it, and he told me his story -- he survived the infamous massacre of Convoy PQ.17 on the Murmasnk Run! Holy smokes! He described how he had two ships sunk out from under him -- the first ship got torpedoed, they abandoned ship and were picked up by another merchant vessel. Then *that* ship was bombed and sunk, and only a few crew got off -- luckily he was picked up by another ship and that ship actually made it to Murmansk...where he said the Soviets didn't want word to get out, so they wouldn't let Allied crews off their ships. I told him today, your whiskey is on the house!
great story, those old guys are a special generation indeed
I watched that video too, around half of my family descended from Polish Jews and I would have a lot more family if it wasn't for the Nazis. Unfortunately, I also have a large German Bolt action army (amongst others) so I myself must be a Nazi because some pompous twit on UA-cam said so.
i hope it was just clickbait and he didnt actually believe the drivel he was spouting
I'm screwed I just ordered the ss charlemagne
ITS SO OVER FOR ME.
yeah you are f"#ked
Fantastic video Dom well said. As I always say you cannot judge people from history on todays standards as in the future people will judge us, at the end of the day we are adults playing with toy soldiers no agendas just having fun 😂
Absolutely mate
I'm right there with you on that one!
You absolutely can and should judge people from history on today's standard. That's the severely understated "learn from" part glossed over by reactionaries every time they dust off their favorite Churchill quote. You know, anytime the question of removing a statue comes up. Judging (ie critiquing) by today's standard is the metric used to prevent the "doomed to repeat it" part. Merely learning about history, without a moral, ethical, and sociological critique, would make history lessons little more than a how to manual for demagoguery and future atrocity.
Couldn’t agree more with everything you said mate 👏👏👍
cheers mate
Great video! Just watched the one you referenced and it had the most brain dead takes of all time.
cheers
All wargamers I have met have been very much anti-war. To learn about war in histroy is to hate it.
And if you bin your "baddies", who will the "goodies" fight????
It's a GAME!
(I wonder what an Orc army says about the owner...?)
i tend to agree most wargamers are more aware than many of the horrors of war
Well explained and excellenty told. Well done Dom.
cheers Peter
I love the ascetics of the German tanks, I grew up playing the original CoD, and love playing the Axis and Allies board game which is a whole lot of fun. I’ve always had a fascination with the panzer line of tanks and German Naval vessels especially the U-Boat. I’d play the Germans, not the Nazis. Plus someone has to play the bad guy for there to be a game for the good guys to play.
I just saw this exact comment on another video, what's up with that?
the best thing about playing the designated 'bad guys' ?
If you lose then you kind of helped the good guys win ;)
it's hard to argue the Panther was not one of the nicest looking tanks of the war ;)
@@Pufferfish1805 I posted the same comment on other related videos.
A very good video, and very well put 👍 (from an owner of numerous WW11 Bolt Action forces, including the SS and Japanese who is not a nazi but a chap with a huge interest in military history and miniature sculptures).
cheers mate
Well said Dom. I was thinking of doing a similar video myself
Cheers Leon
Every period I collect I usually collect both sides to paint,but in gaming I mostly play germans,zulus,pathans,rebel sepoys,confederates,native Americans,orks,chaos and prussians so that will upset a few.
you are obviously very bad
I am English and if I thought daily about the things we have done as a nation to other peoples in our past, I wouldn't be able to function, and that's without the wargaming aspect!!!! As you say, another time another place and hopefully a lot of it never to be repeated. I am a wargamer and yet I have visited the Normandy 4 times, Ypres, Waterloo, Arnhem, Vimy Ridge, Arras and have wept at the graves of of men who paid the ultimate sacrifice, including German cemeteries, the young lead too soon to death by the heads of their people. I have brought my children up to remember that liberty and freedom was bought at a price and we should not forget that. The allies defeated a tyranny in WW2, but those allied nations, in their pasts did terrible things. And what is this thing where the war was fought against the a nation of Nazis? Germany was lead by the Nazis at the time, but they were still Germans? So, we have a fascination with military history of all kinds, doesn't make us bad people, for nerds, we can be quite interesting people. 👍👍😉
I think that's why we Brits cling to WW2 so desperately - it's the 1 time we were very clearly the good guys (more or less).
The British empire was not a bad thing, in exactly the same way the Roman empire was not a bad thing. You only need to look at the regions of Europe where the Roman empire did not reach (such as Eastern Europe) to see that they remained decades behind those that were in terms of infrastructure and technology until only recently. I’ve had the good fortune to have travelled to many former British colonies and almost universally the old timers remembered the colonial period with a warm fuzziness quite unlike the absurd propaganda we are being fed by our own media today.
@@cronykil74 - Nonsense. What about WW1? And the Napoleonic Wars against the Corsican tyrant, in which the British subsidised the Continental powers to a huge degree? And more recently, Korea? Even the post-WW2 wars in Malaya and Kenya were fought against vicious bands of marxist thugs who were opposed by the majority of the local population.
i think to be informed - no matter why - is always thew best route..... not to make snap judgments from ignorance
Cronykil ignorant twat. Never heard of the west Africa squadron? Britain ended slavery and wnet into serious debt to do so. Britiam fought against killing widows for being widows, they fought against canabalism, they fought against general mutilation, etc.
The British empire is not wholey virtuous, although it was reletively benevolent it still forced its will long others through violence, and often for selfish reasons. but ww2 was not the 1 virtuous thing it did. The world would be a lot darker a place without the British empire. Ww2 is focused on because it was the last hurrah, the empire collapsed after woulds and britain became a 2ndary power.
Great video, and a great first one for me. I play Germans in Bolt Action too. I've no idea what that guy was thinking with his video, but he did get called out for it for sure.
New sub btw.
thanks and welcome. I wonder if he expected quite the reaction - he lost a lot of subs and got a lot of dislikes, but then for a channel his size its probably nothing
Well said Dom…… the only historical force I wouldn’t play though is SS
playing the SS I can live with.
Doing the research ... that's where it gets darker.
But playing them in a scenario that is literally set at the scene of one of their atrocities would be my line in the sand as it were.
i do get that mate
I bought some German models last month... and I'm not even white...
clearly you need watching!
Will do. Had to go to work before I could even finish.
Anyone out there playing SCW? The only army I can ethically align with are the anarchists of that era so I'm looking for opponents. Naturally I'll judge your obvious fascist sympathies but that's my one avenue to play with toy soldiers now.
As the target of this vid is a 40k gamer, where every side is the bad side. Well history is the same.
Have fun with this ridiculous hobby, friends. The simple truth is there's rarely a good side in war or they'd not be at war in the first place.
absolutely war is brutal and awful
I e about to start painting a reconnaissance battalion of 1940 German troops. What started this was a ma gazing published by Dave Ryan (Caliver Books). It has a map with a frontage of 5,000 metres but there is only one main road and other roads (cart tracks or bridle paths) So a Brit ad-hock battalion has been formed to stop the Germans from securing the bridge a cross a river. (Not on the map). There is a small village with a garage with one petrol pump and a shop and a tavern (possibly).
The problem is what was used to signify that vehicles were German, the only pictures I have a red flags with a white circle and a black swastika in the centre. And I have heard some years ago that a competition army was banned after someone complained about swastikas draped over the vehicles of a SS motorised battalion. Was this for SS units only because there were som involved in the invasion of France. It would be a little bit like removing the regiments colours from my 1815 guards division in Belgium.
i kind of get the whole issuer with the swastika but you are 100% right for authenticity purposes it is the right embel to us in some formations
Never mind 1940s Germans, some people play "that lot over the hill" now that is unacceptable 😆
Lol
I don't have much to add besides congrats on going viral
The story you ended the video was really good to listen to.
I've heard similar things, as a Japanese American. Those memories fade as we charge into the future, and I am two generations past the ones who fought the big war. I can only be appreciative of the resources such as all these games we have and the peace we enjoy today.
its gone a bit crazy for a small channel like mine - dont worry i'll soon be back to 10 views again ;)
the stories from that generation should be cherished
I find it ironic that somebody who based his career on painting space facists or fantasy racial stereotypes (orcs = black people) has the nerve to look down on historical gamers.
yeah its odd, while being sponsored by a ww2 wargame run by Russians featuring German warships and uboats....
In a world where everything is offensive, nothing is offensive
true
Spot on mate 👍
cheers buddy
I was very touched by your video. Like many people, I enjoy historical miniature wargames and it bothers me that anyone would confuse me with a Fascist because I have Axis forces in my games.
it was a pretty pathetic idea
Great vid Dom. I totally agree m8
cheers buddy
The advertisement running during the said video was world of warships ( a Second World War game fighting axis forces versus allied forces) so that’s condescending taking revenue from a company promoting the very thing they criticised on the video?????
yeah i made that comment on his video myself
Excellent video Dom…I think the person in question went for major controversy for clickbait just to boost Ad revenue. It was pretty childish of them to insinuate what they did about historical hobbyists.
i think you might be right - in a way i hope you are as otherwise its massive ignorance
The UA-cam algorithm linked me to your channel because I'd watched that other video. You've got a new subscriber.
thank you and welcome
Most people think that wargamers are nuts and warmongers. Personally, a lifetime of fascination with military history and ongoing studies in the subject have taught me that war should be relegated to the pages of history and the table-top. I believe it has steered me toward relative pacifism. If you want to play a game, someone has to play the black chess pieces and someone the white. Whaddayado?
i recall an old wargaming show called Armageddon getting picketed by CND one year - they thought it was an arms fair or something... they didnt know what was going on when a load of fat old blokes with backpacks went in .....
I was a student in Reading in the early 80s and picketing by CND was a regular thing - they particularly objected to the name Armageddon and eventually the organisers changed it to Colours. There weren't many fat old blokes then though - in those days the hobby was still young and most historical wargamers were under 30 - not a grey hair in sight. But that was back in the good old days before wargaming was blighted by Warhammer.
Don’t think I’ve ever met a wargamer who was also a warmonger. Most of us are very mild mannered, almost exceptionally so.
Come to think of it there was one Scottish lad who would go berserk when the dice went against him. He’d throw them on the floor and start shouting obscenities at the other players at the top of his voice. He never got invited back.
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the original video.
Germany - Holocaust
Russia - Gulags/Holodomor
Britain - Colonialism
America - Incarceration of ethnic Japanese Americans/Jim Crow
Italy - Empire building in Africa
French - Same as the Italians
Japanese - Nanjing massacre
So what faction are we allowed to play? What historical time period are we allowed to use without it being assumed that we agree with all the bad things that our chosen faction did or allowed to happen under their watch?
tiddly winks in the dark mate, the only solution.....
First and foremost we are playing a game. It has historical context but that does not mean there is any tie to my thoughts, political tendencies or attitudes. I'd be interested if the individual in question has played video games as a first person shooter, and then considered a similar line of argument for the atrocious actions they have you commit
there was so much wrong in what he said
Wow well said Dom. As a wargamer i must be very bad!! Luckily it is strategic gaming with models and with fellow gamers who love the hobby. It is nice to speak to others about the hobby
cheers mate - happy gaming!
I watched their video and it was incredibly misinformed and a shockingly bad take.
true Alex
@BootsontheTable I mean, they were at Salute a couple of weeks ago, surely they could have spoken to some historical wargamers and got their opinion. Absolutely irresponsible of them, given their channel's reach.
@Storm of Steel Wargaming yeah if that's the case it's doubly shocking
@BootsontheTable two videos before this was their Salute video. Plus the video was sponsored by Warships! Incredible lack of self awareness.
In my humble opinion I think I could write an essay on this but in a nutshell wargaming is about many things: EG exploring decision making, testing a hypothesis or tactics in a safe to fail environment, improving tactical thinking , analysis and reflection, research and also studying military history through the lens of wargaming itself. It studies both sides and their tactics, doctrine and so much more. It also uses umpires to adjudicate. It does not advance an ideology or condone one. Perhaps if some of these channels actually read about wargaming or dare I say read the history they would understand why military staff colleges are keen to advance this (MOD handbook) then I think they would quickly see why wargames are considered so important because it has been proven that the process can saves lives. However, Games of War (often labeled within the rubric of wargames) can on the other hand be misleading to an uniformed eye because these advance factions or list building and are encouraged through prescriptive systems which are commercially driven.. in this domain this may be perceived as glorifying war or particular beliefs. However, it was from the amateur realm that professional wargaming approaches developed in modern times. I am a wargamer and proud of this fact. I like GOW too because many facets I am developing have been inspired from them. Only a fool will not study his enemy In detail and the video I think you are referring to , has no detail at all.
couldnt have put it better myself. Thanks
@@BootsontheTable my pleasure and hope you can drop by and see what we are up to some day. Best wishes
thank god more people is making videos on this subject
Sometimes you gotta call things out
The only figures that I would never play with are SS, but if it were pertinent to the game I'd play against them.
Nailed it right there
i can respect that mate
Lol,ever heard about US executing Wehrmacht soldiers in Ruhry because they thought they were SS? What about Russian Asian steppe riders that raped Poland and Germany? Do you have any more retarded ideas what not to play with and why? Do you have a problem distinguishing between real life and a game? Do you thing chess is racist because white always starts?
Well said Dom 👏, totally agree and exactly its a game. Some people want to politicize anything for their own gains. These are the ones to watch out for!
I fear that you are right
@@BootsontheTable glad you did the vid 👍🏻💪
It is a good idea that you didn't link to the Midwinter Minis video that you are reacting to. You are responding to arguments that Midwinter didn't make! The video is a bit all over the place, but it starts with one of the painters asking to not have to paint the German tank and the other host saying there are many reason why someone may play Germans, the last of which was wishing we were in year 80 of 1,000.
well seems most people felt like i did that they were exactly making that point....
I've been a history fan for as long as I can remember. I just recently got into the entire Wargaming stuff, but naturally I am more drawn towards the historical side of things. Everybody who assumes you're a nazi for playing WWII Germany is absolutly detached from reality. Yes: Wars always have and forever will be people doing unspeakable atrocities to each other and it's disgusting but it's the reality of war. Also let's be honest to ourselves: we all love to play the "bad guys" from time to time (also every US military WWII player needs a German to fight, just like every British Red coat enthusiast needs some French guy to go to war with)
completely
wow what was the guy thinking it's a game! we play with toy soldiers nothing to do with being a nazi etc it's not reality it's simply a game enjoy your channel dom dont let someone tunnel vision affect the enjoyment that we all enjoy the painting etc on the table there has to be two sides to enjoy a battle who we chose to be on either side has nothing to do with being a sympathizer or a nazi anyway like you pointed out both allies and the axis had done war crimes carry on mate with your awesome channel and keep the vids coming
cheers buddy - dont worry i'll keep gaming!
When I came to converting a drop trooper 40k army, not only did I paint my Sci-fi paras get painted with red beret's, I made damn sure I converted one at a suprising amount of effort with an umbrella waved above his head because it links back to the history however silly and far removed my prefered form of modelling is, sod Midwinter, he doesnt speak for anyone but himself and certianly no 40k gamer I've ever met most all of who have built at least 1 army with a historical theme
Love the idea that Digby lives on the 40k!
Well said, I found the video you politely "didn't" mention so condescending and very judgemental indeed very ignorant. As the people who made the judgemental video paint a play a game that isn't all sweetness and light I have to ask why do a video unless it was just about being controversial and helping their reputation.
I suggest it was clickbait...
I think as clickbait it is very successful. At the end of the day I'll play war games whether it be Bolt or WHammer
I didn't read all of the comments, but surprised the quote, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” didn't get thrown out there several times. The sad thing is most people don't really know history, certainly don't know the consequences and ramifications of what needs to be learned by history. Even more disturbing is the people who feel they need to rewrite history for some personal agenda or try to convince people certain things never happened. Understanding the 'bad' guy and why they did what they did often helps see emerging 'bad' guys and hopefully head them off. In my studies at the university, we had to read a book 'Harvest of Sorrow' and write a book report about it. The professor was horrified when my theme was, If Stalin wanted to control the Ukrainian area, starve them to death, so he could import everything to Moscow, what he did was exactly what was needed. The professor asked how could I actually defend Stalin and condone what he did. I told the professor he was missing my point. If your premise is you have to do horrible things, the more dehumanizing, demoralizing, and damage you create the easier it is to do horrible things. We also have to remember that specific conditions were created in Germany that allowed Hitler and the Nazi party to rise up and become 'popular'. I think most German citizens realized towards the end what a horrible choice that was, but I'm sure most didn't see it that way in the beginning. You also have to consider the reactions of the nations in regards to Hitler's first blitzkrieg offensives that embolden him to continue his conquests. I still see a lot of similarities to those moves and what is currently happening in the Ukraine with Putin. I only hope our relatively weak national responses doesn't continue to embolden him the same way.
At the end of a gaming battle, as I'm picking up my pieces, I think of the sacrifice and carnage the real wars created and that in most cases in history, the common solider that was on the battlefield didn't really want to be there and often was fighting for a cause or powers that they really didn't share.
sadly history is such a neglected and under appreciated subject. I was shocked at what my daughters were studying in 'history' classes
I really do worry about people at times.
Sadly yes
Well said, Dom. I watched that video, and yeah. I'm glad you chimed in.
~Fritz
cheers mate
This is a bit of an overreaction and a very reductive way to view a discussion that has merits. The video you're referring to doesn't directly call anyone playing a "bad" guy in these games a bad person, but suggests that a stigma could be present given the historical context. You also have to admit that there are people out there (not just in historical wargaming) that are a little too into the ideology spread by some hateful groups in history. Guy brings up some good points about popularity of historical wargaming though. Large content creators are going to be hesitant to post videos that include some of the less savory symbols from history due to UA-cam terms of service and community backlash. This is something that you should want to talk about if you plan on trying to expand your audience on UA-cam. His video is also doing a big favor for historical wargaming. I don't have any interest in historical wargames, but his video has thousands of people talking about them now. Also, your video just popped up on my feed and I'm interacting with it. So, that's good for your channel. Guy even mentions the positives of historical wargaming with how cheap they are to start, how easy they are to paint, and how the modern rules set is described as better than 40K's. If you want to draw more people to your hobby, I think it's important to engage with these topics and have a level-headed discussion. Not post videos overreacting to what was said and dismissing any talking points. Reactions like this reinforce some of the stereotypes about historical wargamers. Instead of posting videos just getting upset, you could discuss some of these comments more in depth and provide the perspective on these topics from someone that actually plays these games. A blanket statement of "Everyone in history is bad so it's fine" isn't going to get the reaction you want. This could be a chance to interact with wargamers that don't currently play historical wargames and show them why your part of the hobby is so good.
maybe you are right, but respectfully the hundreds of comments to the contrary here and on the original video would tend to suggest many think like me that that was exactly what he did suggest
Thank you! And of course don’t name that channel, as they don’t deserve the extra views.
i suspect most people will have seen it :(
@@BootsontheTable true, but no reason to give their name. Totally disappointed me as it was so poorly done.
I think it is called clickbait, he is a GW influencer and was trying to develop a new market with historical gamers. It appears to have worked, He has generated over 2600 comments for this subject rather than the usual few hundred! Using his logic you couldn't play 40K either, as you would be sympathising with xenophobic genocidal maniacs?
Ah, but he excused it as they're pretend xenophobic genocidal maniacs so it's okay. It's all just in your imagination. All in your mind. oh.........
yeah i realise its clickbait but i would hate to discourage even one player to try historicals because they feared to be called a racist or similar
@@BootsontheTable I don't quite understand why he bothered to make any comments his content is almost exclusively GW orientated and he doesn't appear to have any interest in Historic apart from making misinformed remarks about Historical players. I wonder what he would have said about ACW!
Excellent Video! Well said!
Thanks
If it is the channel I think it is, they absolutely didn't say that. Tongue in cheek or not, you argue in bad faith.
What they did was have a commentary on the problems with the perceptions of historical wargaming and how it absolutely deals with actual, real world bad guys.
Of course, I am not sure what channel it was but the timing seems to indicate that it is the one that I think it is and you have very much misrepresented their discussion.
He did not imply you are a Nazi for playing a Nazi army nor did he say that historical wargaming is just WW2. He categorically mentioned that you might just like the gear, the tactics, or the history of the thing.
The video in question raises the question "Why are fantasy/sci-fi games more popular than historicals?" then answers it by stating "It is due to the subject leaving a bad taste in people's mouths".
Not as if there is one huge company which owns a multimedia fantasy/sci-fi wargaming franchise. I would argue that before GW historicals were the norm and it now got flipped. Even then I would argue that the hobby could be split into three groups: GW game players, historical gamers non-GW fantasy/sci-fi gamers, with the latter two having a lot of overlap and only slightly with the GW crowd.
@@Grordonblixt I do think he did his due in comparing both GW and specifically WW2 (as an example) in terms of media coverage, books, movies, etc. By those measure, WW2 has every right to be more popular than Warhammer. I'm sure for some the issue is the problematic nature of history. For others it is some of the sorts of people who you get in historical circles that are in all circles but people seem to forget/ignore that.
We seem to be talking about the same video and I really think he did a good job of presenting things in a fair and balanced way.
Also, I play Germans in WW2 games.
@@elfbait3774 I believe historicals to be less popular specifically because they are less popular, the snowball effect. The larger GW player base attract more new players and keeps them due to being a large player base with loads of possibilities for games, which was not brought up during the video and which is my biggest gripe. Then there is a whole other discussion regarding the barrier to entry being higher for historicals, few manufacturers produce everything you need to play (and it is to a higher degree than for fantasy/sci-fi expected to read up on the "lore"/history).
@@Grordonblixt no argument there. I was speaking to the video itself and not really my personal opinion. History is less appealing than fantasy and/or scifi to the average person.
maybe you are right, but respectfully the hundreds of comments to the contrary here and on the original video would tend to suggest many think like me that that was exactly what he did suggest
As soon as I saw this I knew exactly who had made that video.
Its a big tuber ;)
It's almost like nobody's ancestors were squeaky clean and all of them did fucked up shit to each other.
yeah that's the truth
My interest in WW2 with models and gaming lead to learning the history and stupid things that led to war, and seeing how those same things happen today in politics and battles. The hobby really teaches one about the nature of people who repeat the same mistakes that result in war and losing battles.
i believe the same