I love my high cholesterol. It comes with high testosterone, high HDL, low Trigs, better brain health, and apparently, I've reduced arterial plaques in the past two years of carnivore. Oreos, however, no longer taste good, but the flavor is of cloying, gritty chemicals.
@@Rendref Back before I went very low carb and completely stopped craving sweets, I used to have a medjool date now and again. Haven't eaten Oreos since I was a kid and don't miss them.
To the physician considering telling the patient to increase carbs to decrease LDL: run fasting TG and HDL for reverse cholesterol synthesis. If that’s good, skip the carbs and continue on with high LDL.
I might be a LMHR too. I have very high LDL ever since I went low carb/keto/carnivore, and I did a similar experiment on myself over the Christmas & New Years holidays. Instead of Oreo cookies though I ate all sorts of ice cream, cookies, candy, etc, and my LDL also dropped over several weeks, though not nearly as much as yours, Nick. From 297 down to 259 in tests 20 days apart. At the same time, my HDL and triglycerides remained fairly steady.
Have you tried talking about it with a pharma rep? Bet they aren't so excited. I am a LMHR (6'1" 135 lbs). I am low carb (40-80g of carbs per day) 18/6. I am in ketosis for 8-12 hrs per day. My non HDL cholesterol is 214 and my trig/HDL is 2.1. I am moderating with carbs, but not intentionally, my low carb (but not strict keto low) diet is just what I enjoy. I am not an addictive personality, so having some carbs is not going to lead to consuming more, so this works great for me. Clearly the studies indicate that I do not need to moderate my non HDL cholesterol, as it has *zero* negative impact on CVD (that's what the LMHR study shows) but this particular diet is just what is comfortable for me. I will add that while I am not super low carb I am very low fructose (less than 4g per day).
Since we are dealing with calcification, micro plastics, LDLC, Triglycerides.... I'm going to go this route. >>Nattokinase: A Promising Alternative in Prevention and Treatment of Cardiovascular Diseases
I already have along with serrapeptase, D3 and K2. High lipids and high triglycerides. I took a CAC test via CT scan with a 0 value result. I do HIIT, weights and cycling, resting pulse 48, 185 max HR, BP 109/60, VO2 max 39, BMI 20.5, age 63 female. No medications.
@@tracymullane8818 Just noticed today that Kyolic has a heart product (Aged Garlic Extract WITH Nattokinase) It didn't take them long to see the light. Pharma's got nothing.
Nick is it possible that along with the added carbs, it was also the phytosterols in the Oreos that helped to lower the LDL as they compete with cholesterol for the receptor?
I know you are trying to tamper the idea that high cholesterol is good and also proposing upping carbs to lower cholesterol, but I'm not afraid of my high LDL. I'm a LMHR. tris 51, HDL 119. Total cholesterol is in the 400s. Zero CAC score. I just don't think it's the boogieman it has been portrayed for all these years. I think it plays a role in CD, but I don't think it's causative.
@@nicknorwitzPhD, "… In LMHR …" Has anyone done the same test with anyone else who is lean and not eating carbs but does not qualify as LMHR otherwise?
The second commentor has a strange idea of how the scientific process works. If the hypothesis is disproved, that isn't a *failure*, that is simply more data (the entire point of investigation). As an engineer, the prevalence in the medical field, of complete lack of understanding about how the scientific process operates at its most fundamental level is disconcerting. I am sure Dave Feldman must have been similarly concerned.
@@nicknorwitzPhD you're obviously not one of those who doesn't understand the scientific method ;-) Yes, you knew what the oreo result would be a priori, but that is because you dispassionately analyzed the actual data from other studies that identified the mechanisms and weren't worried whether some preconceived notion that you previously held was dispelled by the data or not.
The biggest thing this highlights for me is the importance of treating the underlying problem instead of the symptom, and that requires understanding the pathology. A lot of practitioners routinely make this mistake.
@@nicknorwitzPhD Fortunately the biomechanics of our cells don’t speak Greek (logos,pathos,ethos). They speak a different language that is real. Information and action as one. How can such as they be described by creatures such as us? Attributing pathos to a metabolic system state makes no more sense than attributing ethos or logos to it. It either works or it doesn’t.
A Doctor told me my cholesterol was very high-340, I said ok, I can bring it back down to 200 just by eating Ice Cream, bread and Pasta again. In my opinion, I think the processed food Industry knew this many years ago. The 340 was after 22 hours of fasting, and in the gym with no food. The Triglycerides were-49.
Your doctor should be taking advice from you, not the other way around. I don’t take advice from fat, sickly doctors. Sorry. I know some of them can be that from health issues totally beyond their control. But when they are sipping diet cokes in front of me and have a jar of M&Ms on their receptionist desk, i know they can’t be taken seriously.
"I think the processed food Industry knew this many years ago" ... you give them a lot of credit... not sure their mastery of physiology is what you think it is.
@@proper2979Look up the Korean Cholesterol Mortality Study published in 2019. Over 12 million subjects. No money from Adventist cult food industry or big pharma. People between 200 and 240 live the longest. Over 240 not much change even at 300 or 400. Under 200 the death rate for everything increases hard and fast. That includes suicide and violence.
@@nicknorwitzPhDOn a related note, Nick so you have any insight on the advertised claims of "heart healthy whole grains", often used with highly processed foods? TIA
I have dozens of Lean Mass Hyper Responder patients. When we discover it, we have several things to decide: 1. Do they even want to decrease their LDL? (many don’t, some do); 2. If they do want to decrease their LDL, the first question is whether they want to do it naturally by adding back a few carbs or if they’d rather use medications.
@@nicknorwitzPhDDr. Berg, Sten Ekberg, Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Cywes, Dave Mac, are a threat to Pharma's data manipulation (Dan Curtin on ARR vs RRR for statins) and you will join them soon enough. Good job and thanks.
Thanks for bringing fresh ideas and backing them up with rigorous science. The world view of these things is changing. I think it can only improve outcoms!
This isn’t rigorous science it’s hypothesis leading rigorous needs more than a n=1 That’s not say I’m not thank full for this, experiment but it’s not rigorous science yet.
I watch all your videos fully. And I love most of what you say. Ps that is a compliment, there aren’t too many. I was referring only to this particular experiment. It was awesome and thought provoking but on its own, as I said, isn’t rigorous science. The rest can be and hopefully we start getting some real truths out there. Dam I just re-read the original post, and misinterpreted it. Sorry. Should I delete the previous post and this. Or just leave it here for people to say I’m an idiot to help spread the word?
@@Damcarnivore Lol... do as you wish. No offense taken. At this point people say all sorts of things so it's hard to hurt my feelings. Try "sun-deprived fragile-neck Harvard elitist bug pushing vegan (but also somehow carnivore zealot?) - macadamia shill statin pusher (and yet LDL denier?) jerk wad idiot stupid face meany-poo!" then we will be getting somewhere...
My LDL cholesterol is now 333. I don’t consider for a second to introduce carbs to reduce it. Maybe even fast before a test to see how high I can drive it with fasting
@@nicknorwitzPhD Since LDL is a "firefighter going to a fire", vs. the fire itself, could those of us who eat zero carbs and zero sugar be raising our LDL levels to more efficiently facilitate the transport of fat through our blood for energy? That is probably a massively oversimplified explanation, but for people who are in ketosis most of the time, would the body try to adapt to long-term ketosis by increasing cholesterol levels as it becomes accustomed to using fat as its primary source of fuel?
@@proper2979 Are you talking to me or Oscar? With respect to my own positioning, I'm very clear about my stance with respect to how to operate while more data on LMHR are pending. Please read here: www.lipidjournal.com/article/S1933-2874(22)00295-1/fulltext. With respect to comments by others, I talk in this video about confirmation bias. I find it most practical to focus on clear, general and soft messaging rather than trying to be prescriptive, which is not my place and is nobody's place (IMHO) on YouTUbe. For more enjoy my conversation on Physionic's channel, with Professor Walter Willett on Plant Chompers Channel, and upcoming video with Simon Hill @theproof.
@@Erichhh Regarding this: "Since LDL is a "firefighter going to a fire", vs. the fire itself" I'm not sure I think that's a proper analogy. I'd strike it. LDL ApoB is part of the causal pathways of ASCVD, whereas fire fighters don't typically start fires nor are they necessary in the development of a fire. Regarding "Could those of us who eat zero carbs and zero sugar be raising our LDL levels to more efficiently facilitate the transport of fat through our blood for energy?" I this so, vis-a-vis the LEM. It doesn't necessarily follow (although it might) that there is no increase in risk. Again, no value judgements here, just pointing our common errors in logic.
You really got the hang on the amount of animations. Sadly, many people see science as "beating each other up with studies until one surrenders (probably never)". Love your approach to this.
Is it possible that the seed oils were partially or fully responsible for the lowering of LDL? It would be interesting to rerun the experiment with a carbohydrate food without seed oils
It seems like he could skip the washout and the statin at this point and just run it again with simpler carbs like fruit and honey. Keep in mind that he came to this way of eating from severe gastro intestinal issues so maybe an undergraduate volunteer would pony up for the next one!
"Is it possible that the seed oils were partially or fully responsible for the lowering of LDL?" I'd say the probability is basically 0. I've had higher n6/LA diet (much higher) while keto and had very high LDL-C. My highest LDL-C was on a high PUFA diet.
Curiosity question - have you ever been in trouble with your attending for trying to push a diet, exercise, lifestyle over medications? For me, it was a major issue during residency. It was get along (follow the rules) to move along. Lots of pressure to write the script move to the next patient. Curious to see if thats the case in the USA.
No I have not. I did once tell an attending Cheerios are not a treatment for constipation (he argued they were a good source of fiber)... the patient did not end up on Cheerio therapy...
Shouldn’t be taking either. High cholesterol is normal. When you eat high carb and sugar foods it becomes bad. We are carnivores. Just eat meat from regenerative cows.
@seesharp81321 Cows in their natural habitat. Factory raised cows are aub par. Regenerative farming restores the grasslands, meat quality is natural, and no need for mono cropping because they consume milk when born and only eat grass. It's fully sustainable.
@nicknorwitzPhD Wouldn't expect you to. The medical field and food industry is finally being exposed to all the lies and corruption. Those who lie eventually get exposed.
@@austinmeredith6647 It is sustainable at planters scale for 8 billion people? If so, how much meat could a given individual eat per annum? I'd love a reference. Asking genuinely.
Nick I am a LHR too. Not sure if you mentioned this, but have you also tracked your triglycerides in conjunction to LDL during your trials? Both values are important to me.
I had the same question. His paper is linked in the description for the original Oreo video but the punchlines are that TG continued to trend down, HDL continued to trend up all while LDL was dropping. The results were consistent for both the Oreos and the statin with the Oreos being more successful overall in reducing LDL.
@@kennethspenser6535 He marked starting positions as per his KD prior to the Oreo intervention but no follow-on measurements were noted. He may have that in his raw dataset.
It was certainly an interesting experiment - and a good way to test a theory (Lipid Energy Model). Interestingly, one could conclude from it that in fact a low carb diet is ‘bad’ for lean people. If we truly believe that LDL causes heart disease, we can see that increasing carbohydrate consumption lowers LDL in lean people. Therefore, lean people should eat carbs. However, what is the impact on whatever health condition brought someone to a low carb diet? It is all very well saying low carb might be bad, but if eating 100g of carbs per day puts someone’s A1C in a diabetic level, the person recommending carbs should demonstrate that treating diabetes with drugs is the most appropriate way forward. Of course, one could conclude quite the reverse, in that the body creates the level of LDL that is appropriate at any given time and, therefore, this can’t be bad. Now, people who believe this really need to prove that that body isn’t simply choosing between the lesser of two evils - e.g. in an effort to provide ‘energy’ to be consumed now, it upregulates something that is ‘bad’ in the longer term, but having no energy in the immediate is ‘worse’. The same line of logic has been applied after all to glucose - in that the cells resist the signal to take in any more fat (as this is ‘immediately bad’ for them) and therefore leave the glucose washing around in the blood which might be bad after a few years, but at this moment in time is fine (thus the lesser of two evils).
Maybe LDL is really not a "bad" cholesterol and the bad Oreo cookie intervention caused the "bad" cholesterol be lowered. I think of ApoB-100 as being an alipoprotein that distributes fatty acids and cholesterol to the cells. ApoB-100 alipoproteins are expensive (it takes lots of ATP) to manufacture. So it makes sense that the liver recycles them. We do need fatty acids and cholesterol to be distributed in the body... continued
Could it be said that LMHR people have a malfunction of the lipogenesis process somewhere in the liver? That the system is not able to effectively pull the excess lipids from the blood to storage. Would this explain the leanness and low BMI, as well? Just "spitballing" here. I just read your study and watched several of your videos. Very thought provoking. Thank you!
You should explain why that hypersensitivity thing is - as if its rare this whole topic doesnt apply too widely. But you are curious about lowering cholesterol - and you mention the New England Journal of Medicine. Well shame on them for publishing the study that launched the statins where they used percentages to exaggerate very low absolute numbers of people who benefitted from the drug. They even showed the study to some Harvard Medical Students who mostly said "gee, a 35% reduction in heart attacks" I would probably prescribe that. Are you kidding me? Do you know about NNTs? the number needed to treat? They are sky high for the statins. There is sooooo much to the whole cholesterol cult and even though I owe my life to a brilliant doctor who solved a never seen before life threatening problem post bone marrow transplant for leukemia - a wicked case of outside the box thinking - I was pre med and used to hold ALL doctors in such high regard - not anymore. They let themselves get brainwashed by Big Pharma who spent and average of $10k per doctor wining and dining them when the statins launched. I cant attach it here but I have a copy of a Lipitor ad that really ran - I saw it - decades ago - that says in the mice type - Lipitor has not been shown to prevent heart disease, heart attacks or strokes. WTF? No one said what the hell is going on here. If you google any phrase like the truth about cholesterol you will see more and more doctors are getting informed and getting out of the cult. And small particle LDL, thankfully, helps REPAIR artery damaged caused by inflammation - if it didnt help repair that our arteries would be leaking. So blaming LDL for plaque is like blaming the fireman for the fire. Its all true. And why would humans and other beings make something for thousands of years only one day to have it declared bad for us? Profits?
continued.. How does sugar consumption shut down LDL-sized ApoB-100? Does the high level of sugar (in a person that is fat adapted) have an interaction with the liver processing the FFA/glycerol coming from the adipose tissue? Is this an interaction with between Glucagon switched off and Insulin as its switched from low to high due to the sugar? In the adipose tissue? In the liver? Both? My gut feeling is that we are seeing is like a race condition in networking.
Nick pls tell those that contact you to lower their LDL about Dr. Nadir Ali's research that those with higher LDL have better memory and live longer... do they REALLY want to lower their LDL???
This is fascinating. Has anyone thought of trying this with something less terrifying than Oreos, like ice cream? This could mesh well with the baffling research that ice cream is actually good for us. Because I’m always looking for an excuse to eat ice cream more often than my annual 4th of July splurge.
No one should regret doing any experiment that challenges the status quo as long as it is well designed and advances understanding. It is people like you who have both the intelligence and moral fibre who move science forward. You remind me of the scientists of old who were driven by curiosity versus $$$. Not that there is anything wrong with $$$, but I see it as less important to you than truth. And if you did not already know - humour intended - you'd make a horrible politician.
The tension I tried to create in my physicians back when I was super-healthy for my age (70) was the conflict between lipid ratios and LDL regarding risk of CVD: my ratios said very low risk, my LDL said danger, danger! For some folks (and perhaps for LMHRs in particular, and perhaps for older ones even more) the risk of slamming down one's LDL level may cause health disaster. My present PCP said that perhaps the statin triggered a risk, perhaps a genetic risk that most people don't share, and caused the mitochondrial disease I seem to have. No one seems to want to know. The symptoms appeared within weeks of starting the statin, so though correlation is indeed not causation (how often have I heard that?...as though correlation disproved causation), I throw this out as a cautionary tale to others who might--though you certainly warned them not to--use a statin (I don't know about Oreos) to tank their LDL just to see. THANK YOU!
What were the symptoms? I've tried statins twice which caused really bad muscle pains and cramping. I've since changed to eating carnivore, and though my LDL is very high, at least for now I'm convinced it's not a danger given all the research I've done from youtube videos, anecdotes, and studies.
I"m an LMHR 55yo female with same numbers/history as the LMHR study cohort average. Raised my carbs over the last year, to around 100G of fruit, honey, maple syrup, fermented/low-tox veg, and allulose, which is not insignificant for a little (~113lb) old lady. My LDL went up a hair to 288. Shrug.
the effect of lowering the cholesterol is a result of taking you out of ketosis. Youre likely not eating enough sugar to take you out if ketosis. 100G of oreos has more sugar than 100G of fruit.
Thank you Nick for sharing your research to the world via social media. It helps broadening horizons and bring information to the open debates that were left behind closed doors before. This is so important, I hope your channel grows exponentially. Thank you !
Beautifully reasoned and presented. For the benefit of those who are new to your channel I would always explicitly state that a keto diet underlies both conditions - I think it’s important to emphasize that the Oreos had this effect on someone who was in ketosis. You might also give a shout out to Dave Feldman who I believe manipulated his LDL this way.
I have a question that has been bothering me for quite sometime after I watched the Oreo video, does that mean lean mass hyper-responder dont really need to worriy about LDL ? Is eating healthy carb ok for people who have been on a low cab dite for a long time ?
I would also like to know the answer to your first question☺️ After a year on keto/stm.very low carb -30kg, TG plunged, HDL went up. Increase in Total cholesterol up to 377 and LDL 300. My GP told me she was proud to see my results. She was the one to encourage me to get rid of sugar but it has been bothering me if it's ok just to ignore my LDL.
Theoretically the Ezetimibe would be the most effective treatment to lower cholesterol in LMHRs. My cholesterol, as a LMHR, increases directly within two days when changing diet. Since the Ezetimibe blocks the cholesterol uptake in the intestines its impact will be substantial and much more effective than a statin.
In this case N=1 has a purpose, to get attention about a topic that probably needs further scientific investigation. There will always be those trying to pick apart findings for their own gains. You’ve been nothing but transparent and creative. What’s next Nick?
In theory could the processed food companies now promote their items as cholesterol lowering? I can see it now. The big box of Oreos with the tagline "Lowers bad cholesterol by X%". 😆
In the hospital setting, do you see many other doctors willing to sincerely utilize diet over pharmaceuticals as a medical intervention? Us lay people frequently hear that coursework around diet and nutrition is woefully under represented in med school and thus, by default, the decades-old "food pyramid" style of eating (heavy grains, low meat) is still promoted. Love to hear your thoughts on modern medicine being focused on symptom treatment using drugs vs disease prevention and health maintenance using diet and exercise. Thanks and appreciate all your content!
"diet and nutrition is woefully under represented in med school" -- true. And that which is taught is generally, in my opinion, not representative of the best science but rather rationalizing a failed status quo. Granted, I have a strong opinion, but that's my opinion nevertheless.
I hope someone funds your research mate, and to those misrepresenting your findings, hopefully karma will have something to say about it. Good work Nick, keep goin mate 👊😎
Very interesting FA. Odd chain SFA 15:0 and 17:0 appear to have certain health benefits, and some have even labeled them “essential” or conditionally essential. There was a great Nature Comms paper on it, I think 2019.
I curious to know if you experienced any adverse effects from the Staton phase of your experiment? Did you start to get digestive issues returning when you were cookie phase of your experiment?
One of the world's leading lipidologists Thomas Dayspring suggests that keeping your APOB below 80ng/DL prevents the formation of plaque within the arteries. Has any of your research been able to demonstrate keeping your APOB below this threshold? Also noting that this is a recommendation for healthy individuals. He looks to aim for below 40ng/DL for high risk individuals.
I have my thoughts on Thomas Dayspring. His mentor is William Cromwell, who you’ll note is an author on the Oreo paper. Tom himself is not well-informed about #LMHR. I’ve spoken with a handful of his associates who agree that - while he’s a smart man - he’s not up to date on this phenotype nor the LEM physiology behind it
@nicknorwitzPhD I think there are many well informed and educated people that agree with Thomas Dayspring. Peter Attia being one with high credibility. So have you observed any results below 80mg/dl in LMHRs?
Would be probably prudent to emphasize that this Oreo cholesterol lowering applies only to LMHR. (Even if it was mentioned in passing here and there). Individuals who are metabolically compromised will not be able to manipulate their cholesterol levels eating Oreos. Am I correct?
It is my observation that lean mass hyper responders exercise a lot. In nature most carnivores do not. They are ambush predators and tend to sleep a lot. Perhaps you should severely restrict your exercise and see what that does to your cholesterol.
@@nicknorwitzPhD yes but compared to what? Was it as 'high' as more animal based keto? If different fats, oils, proteins and sterols have different changes to levels then this may also have a compounding effect. This reminds me of an experiment Dave did years ago where to avoid confounding he used lollies almost entirely made of dextrose.
Thank you for exploring this subject to challenge the dogma. I recognize this is not medical advice. With that being said I am very active in the gym. 6’2” 175 very lean, eat a very strict carnivore diet with a total cholesterol just north of 400, 96 HDL, trig 100. I am a veteran that goes to the VA for my healthcare, they are losing their mind. I’ve stayed calm and explained my reasons and they are pressuring w/ Cardiologists etc. if you found yourself in this situation what supporting information would you think would be helpful. I’m not trying to be rude, smug, or disrespectful to them but it hasn’t gone well so far.
@@nicknorwitzPhD loll agreed, idk if you’ve tried butter coffee but it's life changing. Mix a hot cup of joe with 2-3 tablespoons of butter. It's even more heavenly if you use a blender to mix them together. Thank you for all the hard work, its is inspiring me to work harder and pursue higher education. Can’t reconfigure academia from the outside looking in. Glad to see that there are good true scientists in the space
Ya sorry about that... my editor promised me this was two channel... I've put him on 'light' notice... in my haste (tis my life) I didn't double check. My sincere apologies
Why the lowering of LDL a good thing . About half of the people with heart disease have normal LDL. If you think about it LDL is really the victim caused by eating processed carbohydrates and process oils leading to Oxidation of LDL.
My husband had a CAC Score of 288. Then he had a CTCA which revised the CAC score to 388. My husband has been Carnivore for the last 150 days and the doctor wants him on a low fat diet and prescribed him Lipitor. I thought the next step should be the catheter test (can’t remember the name) But they are pushing HARD for statins
I truly enjoy your thought process. Im only a retired Firefighter that always !thought outside the box. It got me in so much trouble LOL. Ty for your curiosity! Keep up the great questioning!
When I was 19 someone asked me what I did. I said oh I'm just a typist. He pulled me up on the "just". I've never forgotten that and I'm 66 now. I was a stay at home mum and made sure that I never said just a mum.
Very inspiring. Although lipidology needs you and your team. What the world really needs is you doing workshops for the political class on communication. Especially your ability to highlight why negative trolling actually is harmful to everyone, yourself and your underlying message. I note the high volume insults have been toned down dramatically on the L Norton front, I don't expect it was my paltry influence.
For me, as a LMHR, the next questions that needs to be answered are this: Is it worth giving up the health benefits of a low carb diet for the health benefits of lower LDL and apoB? What’s the tradeoff and where on the carb intake/LDL continuum do the curves cross? Much more research seems to be needed.
5 місяців тому
Getting results predicted by a reasonably looking model is not really that surprising. What's more surprising is why it didn't work for Shawn Baker. *That's* what I'm curious about.
Anyone know if oxidized LDL-C is lower in LMHR individuals than those with similar LDL-C levels who are less metabolically healthy? Could this explain the difference in long term CV risk across populations with high LDL?
I am finding that individuals within this community that have tested high for LDL are contemplating using this carbohydrate protocol as a cheat code to 'get out of jail' with their more conventional doctors or avoid the uncomfortable refusal to take a statin conversation altogether. From your paper, there did not seem to be a negative impact to TG or HDL while on this short term protocol but I do wonder if an NMR would not have provided additional helpful detail? I wonder what long term impact might there be for TG, HDL, LDL particle size etc.? And in some fashion, did you just prove that an optimal human diet for non-carb addicted people includes a daily 100g dose of healthy, well tolerated carbohydrates? Apologies if you covered this somewhere else but I was too intrigued not to ask the question.
I'll narrow in on one thing: "on this short term protocol" ... as a rule acute doesn't translate well to chronic in diet studies. Lipid dynamics in LMHR (and others) can be VERY dynamic. So it does not follow that "Oreo treatment" for a year would manifest the same results as for 1 week.
I was thinking of doing exactly this. For years I had LDL in the 110-130 range...no meds. mix of carbs and typical diet, but not super unhealthy diet with a hiking/biking lifestyle, maybe 10lbs overweight... doctor not too happy over most of that time...2 yo younger brother 4 years ago... more sedate lifestyle, got a heart attack (he's 59, I'm 61 now)...over the past 3 years, moved myself to more intermittent fasting, cutting sugars, eating low carb, more fat and sat. fat....2 months ago, LDL was up to 179 (TG 60, HDL 55, TC 246), doctor demanded statins...I said no...he agreed to retest late this summer after I modify my diet more. I had fasted about 22 hours...more than usual, and had fasted 24+ hours 48 hours before the 22 hour fast. I think it was an unusual test for me due to all the extended fasting, but we will see. I have since gotten tested on my own via Ulta Labs and am waiting for a lipid fractionalization test result as I type this - a test my doctor didn't seem to even know about. I may cut some of the butter for more avocado and olive oil, but will continue to stay away from the seedier oils. I'm going to continue with self-ordered tests and see if a bump of carbs a week or two ahead of the blood draw drops LDL. I am not a LMHR though, as BMI stands at 25.9.
@@beltrams If you are doing your own labs, see if reducing the fasting window before a blood draw helps. I watched a Dave Feldman video a while back where he showed that fasting too far beyond 12 hours can really blow up your TG and LDL. I think if you check out his channel, you might find the actual video and correct me if I'm remembering wrong. I also once heard Laura Spath comment that she makes sure to eat her last meal between 12-14 hours before a blood draw to get what she feels is the most accurate result as well. Hopefully you find what works best for you and keeps your doctor happy too!
I'd be curious if any other component of Oreos has an impact on your LDL, not just the carbohydrates. What do you think about repeating the experiment with pure glucose, pure vegetable oil etc? Or do we already have data to support this anyway?
It's great that the medical community is not so stubborn that they cannot look at how their existing models are inadequate, but there is another question that needs to be asked. Is lower LDL desirable? The currently-accepted model of Cholesterol and health has a dubious history and was always applied in the context of the SAD. We need more research on the relationship between Cholesterol, arterial disease, and overall health.
@@nicknorwitzPhD Gotta tell you one of the comments you made that made me love your POV was an interview where you were talking about Dave F. You were like….”who is this guy?! He keeps asking these GREAT questions!” From that moment I knew you two guys were “it” for me. You two are kindred spirits… I hope you both stay good life long friends and collaborators. Quite different from the disgust I feel towards Attia and Norton’s friendship. Those two deserve each other! STAY CURIOUS!!❤️👍
@@jimo559 " I hope you both stay good life long friends and collaborators." -- Thanks :). I feel very lucky to have Dave as my brother from another mother.
I love my high cholesterol. It comes with high testosterone, high HDL, low Trigs, better brain health, and apparently, I've reduced arterial plaques in the past two years of carnivore. Oreos, however, no longer taste good, but the flavor is of cloying, gritty chemicals.
I might flavor my low-carb beef chili with the black cocoa used in Oreos, though. It’s an interesting flavor.
@@markiangooley cocoa has lots of oxylates. Low energy and brain fog.
Oreo has never tasted good. If someone craves sugar there's a whole world of delicious treats out there. Oreo was never one of them.
@@Rendref Back before I went very low carb and completely stopped craving sweets, I used to have a medjool date now and again. Haven't eaten Oreos since I was a kid and don't miss them.
I can eat a whole row of the peanut butter oreos in one sitting
To the physician considering telling the patient to increase carbs to decrease LDL: run fasting TG and HDL for reverse cholesterol synthesis. If that’s good, skip the carbs and continue on with high LDL.
I might be a LMHR too. I have very high LDL ever since I went low carb/keto/carnivore, and I did a similar experiment on myself over the Christmas & New Years holidays. Instead of Oreo cookies though I ate all sorts of ice cream, cookies, candy, etc, and my LDL also dropped over several weeks, though not nearly as much as yours, Nick. From 297 down to 259 in tests 20 days apart. At the same time, my HDL and triglycerides remained fairly steady.
Have you tried talking about it with a pharma rep? Bet they aren't so excited.
I am a LMHR (6'1" 135 lbs). I am low carb (40-80g of carbs per day) 18/6. I am in ketosis for 8-12 hrs per day. My non HDL cholesterol is 214 and my trig/HDL is 2.1.
I am moderating with carbs, but not intentionally, my low carb (but not strict keto low) diet is just what I enjoy. I am not an addictive personality, so having some carbs is not going to lead to consuming more, so this works great for me.
Clearly the studies indicate that I do not need to moderate my non HDL cholesterol, as it has *zero* negative impact on CVD (that's what the LMHR study shows) but this particular diet is just what is comfortable for me.
I will add that while I am not super low carb I am very low fructose (less than 4g per day).
"Have you tried talking about it with a pharma rep?" - Nope, not yet. No plans to do so.
@@nicknorwitzPhD lol!
If you are eating a clean, healthy, low carbohydrate diet (no processed foods or seed oils), why would you want to lower your LDL?
Since we are dealing with calcification, micro plastics, LDLC, Triglycerides.... I'm going to go this route.
>>Nattokinase: A Promising Alternative in Prevention and Treatment of Cardiovascular Diseases
I already have along with serrapeptase, D3 and K2. High lipids and high triglycerides. I took a CAC test via CT scan with a 0 value result. I do HIIT, weights and cycling, resting pulse 48, 185 max HR, BP 109/60, VO2 max 39, BMI 20.5, age 63 female. No medications.
@@tracymullane8818 Just noticed today that Kyolic has a heart product (Aged Garlic Extract WITH Nattokinase) It didn't take them long to see the light. Pharma's got nothing.
Nick is it possible that along with the added carbs, it was also the phytosterols in the Oreos that helped to lower the LDL as they compete with cholesterol for the receptor?
Very unlikely. Oreos are not high in phytosterols, and on high PUFA ketogenic diet my ldl is still very high.
I don't know who makes the Oreo cookies, but did they react in any way? 😜
Not much... I suppose a bit risky for the brand... I wouldn't have minded a comic retweet from Oreo twitter (>1M followers), but it didn't happen.
I know you are trying to tamper the idea that high cholesterol is good and also proposing upping carbs to lower cholesterol, but I'm not afraid of my high LDL. I'm a LMHR. tris 51, HDL 119. Total cholesterol is in the 400s. Zero CAC score. I just don't think it's the boogieman it has been portrayed for all these years. I think it plays a role in CD, but I don't think it's causative.
So, the Oreos are the real speedwagon to reduced LDL...
In LMHR, it's possible...
@@nicknorwitzPhD,
"… In LMHR …"
Has anyone done the same test with anyone else who is lean and not eating carbs but does not qualify as LMHR otherwise?
The second commentor has a strange idea of how the scientific process works. If the hypothesis is disproved, that isn't a *failure*, that is simply more data (the entire point of investigation).
As an engineer, the prevalence in the medical field, of complete lack of understanding about how the scientific process operates at its most fundamental level is disconcerting. I am sure Dave Feldman must have been similarly concerned.
I think you'll enjoy a video I have coming on Leptin resistance ... you'll like the point I make at the end...
@@nicknorwitzPhD you're obviously not one of those who doesn't understand the scientific method ;-)
Yes, you knew what the oreo result would be a priori, but that is because you dispassionately analyzed the actual data from other studies that identified the mechanisms and weren't worried whether some preconceived notion that you previously held was dispelled by the data or not.
Waiting for oreo cookie flavored chewable statin to enter the scene
lol nice
Or the Statin-flavored Oreo?
What about a statin-flavored Oreo?
I'll have a sleeve of statins, please!
LOL. My guess is someone in big pharma is working on that as we speak...
The biggest thing this highlights for me is the importance of treating the underlying problem instead of the symptom, and that requires understanding the pathology. A lot of practitioners routinely make this mistake.
Hyperlipidemia is not a pathology.
I agree. Although in this case is it physiology or pathology or pathophysiology?
@@nicknorwitzPhD
Fortunately the biomechanics of our cells don’t speak Greek (logos,pathos,ethos).
They speak a different language that is real. Information and action as one. How can such as they be described by creatures such as us?
Attributing pathos to a metabolic system state makes no more sense than attributing ethos or logos to it. It either works or it doesn’t.
It is truly a good point.
Great comment
A Doctor told me my cholesterol was very high-340, I said ok, I can bring it back down to 200 just by eating Ice Cream, bread and Pasta again. In my opinion, I think the processed food Industry knew this many years ago. The 340 was after 22 hours of fasting, and in the gym with no food. The Triglycerides were-49.
Your doctor should be taking advice from you, not the other way around. I don’t take advice from fat, sickly doctors. Sorry. I know some of them can be that from health issues totally beyond their control. But when they are sipping diet cokes in front of me and have a jar of M&Ms on their receptionist desk, i know they can’t be taken seriously.
"I think the processed food Industry knew this many years ago" ... you give them a lot of credit... not sure their mastery of physiology is what you think it is.
Youre still at risk for CAD. Your cholesterol isnt below 70 I bet.
@@proper2979Look up the Korean Cholesterol Mortality Study published in 2019. Over 12 million subjects. No money from Adventist cult food industry or big pharma.
People between 200 and 240 live the longest.
Over 240 not much change even at 300 or 400.
Under 200 the death rate for everything increases hard and fast. That includes suicide and violence.
@@nicknorwitzPhDOn a related note, Nick so you have any insight on the advertised claims of "heart healthy whole grains", often used with highly processed foods? TIA
I have dozens of Lean Mass Hyper Responder patients. When we discover it, we have several things to decide: 1. Do they even want to decrease their LDL? (many don’t, some do); 2. If they do want to decrease their LDL, the first question is whether they want to do it naturally by adding back a few carbs or if they’d rather use medications.
I really appreciate the fact that you shared this information with the general public on UA-cam.
You’re welcome! I love sharing
@@nicknorwitzPhD#metoo #carnivorewisdom #meathealsus
Interestingly the typical family doctor seeing your ldl drop (without knowing the intervention) would conclude your healthier.
Well... then we have a "paradox" don't we?
And they may be right.
@@proper2979 Maybe... question to be answered by further research. The data are pending...
@@proper2979 ... which leaves the other option that they may be incorrect.
Given the cash cow that is statins, has anyone from this industry contacted you, attempting to have your paper pulled or any other negative events ?
They probably tried to buy -up oreo production companies .
@@kenadams5504 hard to define what is most toxic between statins and oreos.
If that happens I'll know I had a much bigger impact that I thought... don't think this was quite so big as to actually scare Pharma
@@nicknorwitzPhDDr. Berg, Sten Ekberg, Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Cywes, Dave Mac, are a threat to Pharma's data manipulation (Dan Curtin on ARR vs RRR for statins) and you will join them soon enough. Good job and thanks.
it doesn't even debunk stations, unless you talk about lmhr's which are very rare
Thanks for bringing fresh ideas and backing them up with rigorous science. The world view of these things is changing. I think it can only improve outcoms!
My Ideas are Fresh... even if Oreos are stale...
This isn’t rigorous science it’s hypothesis leading rigorous needs more than a n=1
That’s not say I’m not thank full for this, experiment but it’s not rigorous science yet.
@@Damcarnivore Listen again to the full video... you may notice something...ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(24)00009-1/fulltext
I watch all your videos fully. And I love most of what you say. Ps that is a compliment, there aren’t too many.
I was referring only to this particular experiment. It was awesome and thought provoking but on its own, as I said, isn’t rigorous science. The rest can be and hopefully we start getting some real truths out there.
Dam I just re-read the original post, and misinterpreted it.
Sorry.
Should I delete the previous post and this. Or just leave it here for people to say I’m an idiot to help spread the word?
@@Damcarnivore Lol... do as you wish. No offense taken. At this point people say all sorts of things so it's hard to hurt my feelings. Try "sun-deprived fragile-neck Harvard elitist bug pushing vegan (but also somehow carnivore zealot?) - macadamia shill statin pusher (and yet LDL denier?) jerk wad idiot stupid face meany-poo!" then we will be getting somewhere...
My LDL cholesterol is now 333. I don’t consider for a second to introduce carbs to reduce it.
Maybe even fast before a test to see how high I can drive it with fasting
maybe worth a skim: www.lipidjournal.com/article/S1933-2874(22)00295-1/fulltext
if you ever get a heart attack will you come back and apologize for these arrogant comments?
@@nicknorwitzPhD Since LDL is a "firefighter going to a fire", vs. the fire itself, could those of us who eat zero carbs and zero sugar be raising our LDL levels to more efficiently facilitate the transport of fat through our blood for energy? That is probably a massively oversimplified explanation, but for people who are in ketosis most of the time, would the body try to adapt to long-term ketosis by increasing cholesterol levels as it becomes accustomed to using fat as its primary source of fuel?
@@proper2979 Are you talking to me or Oscar? With respect to my own positioning, I'm very clear about my stance with respect to how to operate while more data on LMHR are pending. Please read here: www.lipidjournal.com/article/S1933-2874(22)00295-1/fulltext. With respect to comments by others, I talk in this video about confirmation bias. I find it most practical to focus on clear, general and soft messaging rather than trying to be prescriptive, which is not my place and is nobody's place (IMHO) on YouTUbe. For more enjoy my conversation on Physionic's channel, with Professor Walter Willett on Plant Chompers Channel, and upcoming video with Simon Hill @theproof.
@@Erichhh Regarding this: "Since LDL is a "firefighter going to a fire", vs. the fire itself" I'm not sure I think that's a proper analogy. I'd strike it. LDL ApoB is part of the causal pathways of ASCVD, whereas fire fighters don't typically start fires nor are they necessary in the development of a fire. Regarding "Could those of us who eat zero carbs and zero sugar be raising our LDL levels to more efficiently facilitate the transport of fat through our blood for energy?" I this so, vis-a-vis the LEM. It doesn't necessarily follow (although it might) that there is no increase in risk. Again, no value judgements here, just pointing our common errors in logic.
Always interesting content. Very well presented and outside the box thinking. Super smart guy
Cheers Shelley!
You really got the hang on the amount of animations.
Sadly, many people see science as "beating each other up with studies until one surrenders (probably never)". Love your approach to this.
Data volume doesn’t win… this isn’t a tug of war… it’s a 4D chess match, and a long one… maybe a bad analogy but I’m tired rn
@@nicknorwitzPhD Most important, it is not a fight. It is for a common goal - to get closer to the truth.
Thank you, Nick! More success to you!
You're very welcome :)
Is it possible that the seed oils were partially or fully responsible for the lowering of LDL?
It would be interesting to rerun the experiment with a carbohydrate food without seed oils
It seems like he could skip the washout and the statin at this point and just run it again with simpler carbs like fruit and honey. Keep in mind that he came to this way of eating from severe gastro intestinal issues so maybe an undergraduate volunteer would pony up for the next one!
"Is it possible that the seed oils were partially or fully responsible for the lowering of LDL?" I'd say the probability is basically 0. I've had higher n6/LA diet (much higher) while keto and had very high LDL-C. My highest LDL-C was on a high PUFA diet.
Nick, you and Dave Feldman are disruptors! Love it.
Me too ;)
Good job - as usual, Nick!
Thanks very much!
Curiosity question - have you ever been in trouble with your attending for trying to push a diet, exercise, lifestyle over medications? For me, it was a major issue during residency. It was get along (follow the rules) to move along. Lots of pressure to write the script move to the next patient. Curious to see if thats the case in the USA.
No I have not. I did once tell an attending Cheerios are not a treatment for constipation (he argued they were a good source of fiber)... the patient did not end up on Cheerio therapy...
Shouldn’t be taking either.
High cholesterol is normal. When you eat high carb and sugar foods it becomes bad.
We are carnivores. Just eat meat from regenerative cows.
What is a regenerative cow? 😜
No comment on the first 4 sentences. On the last, I enjoy a good steak, especially rare and drowned in lava salt and EVOO.
@seesharp81321 Cows in their natural habitat. Factory raised cows are aub par.
Regenerative farming restores the grasslands, meat quality is natural, and no need for mono cropping because they consume milk when born and only eat grass. It's fully sustainable.
@nicknorwitzPhD Wouldn't expect you to. The medical field and food industry is finally being exposed to all the lies and corruption.
Those who lie eventually get exposed.
@@austinmeredith6647 It is sustainable at planters scale for 8 billion people? If so, how much meat could a given individual eat per annum? I'd love a reference. Asking genuinely.
What did the Oreos do to your triglycerides. High triglycerides are dangerous for heart attacks.
It lowered them slightly, if anything. See the paper. This was predicted as an acute response to overfeeding and bump in insulin in the fasted state.
Thank you. I wish more people would become curious instead of just accept what they are told.
Listening can be more comfortable… knowing when it push back and how to be humble about one’s own knowledge at the same time is a rare skill…
Nick I am a LHR too. Not sure if you mentioned this, but have you also tracked your triglycerides in conjunction to LDL during your trials? Both values are important to me.
I had the same question. His paper is linked in the description for the original Oreo video but the punchlines are that TG continued to trend down, HDL continued to trend up all while LDL was dropping. The results were consistent for both the Oreos and the statin with the Oreos being more successful overall in reducing LDL.
Were there changes in LDL-p, fasting Glucose, A1c..?
TG very low. Went slightly lower on Oreo arm. See paper (into the 30s). This is actually predicted by the LEM.
@@kennethspenser6535 He marked starting positions as per his KD prior to the Oreo intervention but no follow-on measurements were noted. He may have that in his raw dataset.
It was certainly an interesting experiment - and a good way to test a theory (Lipid Energy Model). Interestingly, one could conclude from it that in fact a low carb diet is ‘bad’ for lean people. If we truly believe that LDL causes heart disease, we can see that increasing carbohydrate consumption lowers LDL in lean people. Therefore, lean people should eat carbs. However, what is the impact on whatever health condition brought someone to a low carb diet? It is all very well saying low carb might be bad, but if eating 100g of carbs per day puts someone’s A1C in a diabetic level, the person recommending carbs should demonstrate that treating diabetes with drugs is the most appropriate way forward.
Of course, one could conclude quite the reverse, in that the body creates the level of LDL that is appropriate at any given time and, therefore, this can’t be bad. Now, people who believe this really need to prove that that body isn’t simply choosing between the lesser of two evils - e.g. in an effort to provide ‘energy’ to be consumed now, it upregulates something that is ‘bad’ in the longer term, but having no energy in the immediate is ‘worse’. The same line of logic has been applied after all to glucose - in that the cells resist the signal to take in any more fat (as this is ‘immediately bad’ for them) and therefore leave the glucose washing around in the blood which might be bad after a few years, but at this moment in time is fine (thus the lesser of two evils).
Thank you for the update...I' a lmhr and following this research has been soooooo fascinating!
Glad you enjoy it!
Stay curious
YES
Maybe LDL is really not a "bad" cholesterol and the bad Oreo cookie intervention caused the "bad" cholesterol be lowered. I think of ApoB-100 as being an alipoprotein that distributes fatty acids and cholesterol to the cells. ApoB-100 alipoproteins are expensive (it takes lots of ATP) to manufacture. So it makes sense that the liver recycles them. We do need fatty acids and cholesterol to be distributed in the body... continued
Could it be said that LMHR people have a malfunction of the lipogenesis process somewhere in the liver? That the system is not able to effectively pull the excess lipids from the blood to storage. Would this explain the leanness and low BMI, as well? Just "spitballing" here. I just read your study and watched several of your videos. Very thought provoking. Thank you!
You should explain why that hypersensitivity thing is - as if its rare this whole topic doesnt apply too widely. But you are curious about lowering cholesterol - and you mention the New England Journal of Medicine. Well shame on them for publishing the study that launched the statins where they used percentages to exaggerate very low absolute numbers of people who benefitted from the drug. They even showed the study to some Harvard Medical Students who mostly said "gee, a 35% reduction in heart attacks" I would probably prescribe that. Are you kidding me? Do you know about NNTs? the number needed to treat? They are sky high for the statins. There is sooooo much to the whole cholesterol cult and even though I owe my life to a brilliant doctor who solved a never seen before life threatening problem post bone marrow transplant for leukemia - a wicked case of outside the box thinking - I was pre med and used to hold ALL doctors in such high regard - not anymore. They let themselves get brainwashed by Big Pharma who spent and average of $10k per doctor wining and dining them when the statins launched. I cant attach it here but I have a copy of a Lipitor ad that really ran - I saw it - decades ago - that says in the mice type - Lipitor has not been shown to prevent heart disease, heart attacks or strokes. WTF? No one said what the hell is going on here. If you google any phrase like the truth about cholesterol you will see more and more doctors are getting informed and getting out of the cult. And small particle LDL, thankfully, helps REPAIR artery damaged caused by inflammation - if it didnt help repair that our arteries would be leaking. So blaming LDL for plaque is like blaming the fireman for the fire. Its all true. And why would humans and other beings make something for thousands of years only one day to have it declared bad for us? Profits?
continued.. How does sugar consumption shut down LDL-sized ApoB-100? Does the high level of sugar (in a person that is fat adapted) have an interaction with the liver processing the FFA/glycerol coming from the adipose tissue? Is this an interaction with between Glucagon switched off and Insulin as its switched from low to high due to the sugar? In the adipose tissue? In the liver? Both? My gut feeling is that we are seeing is like a race condition in networking.
Nick pls tell those that contact you to lower their LDL about Dr. Nadir Ali's research that those with higher LDL have better memory and live longer... do they REALLY want to lower their LDL???
This is fascinating. Has anyone thought of trying this with something less terrifying than Oreos, like ice cream? This could mesh well with the baffling research that ice cream is actually good for us. Because I’m always looking for an excuse to eat ice cream more often than my annual 4th of July splurge.
BOTTOM LINE: we need more YOUs in our Medical System!!!
No one should regret doing any experiment that challenges the status quo as long as it is well designed and advances understanding. It is people like you who have both the intelligence and moral fibre who move science forward. You remind me of the scientists of old who were driven by curiosity versus $$$. Not that there is anything wrong with $$$, but I see it as less important to you than truth. And if you did not already know - humour intended - you'd make a horrible politician.
The tension I tried to create in my physicians back when I was super-healthy for my age (70) was the conflict between lipid ratios and LDL regarding risk of CVD: my ratios said very low risk, my LDL said danger, danger! For some folks (and perhaps for LMHRs in particular, and perhaps for older ones even more) the risk of slamming down one's LDL level may cause health disaster. My present PCP said that perhaps the statin triggered a risk, perhaps a genetic risk that most people don't share, and caused the mitochondrial disease I seem to have. No one seems to want to know. The symptoms appeared within weeks of starting the statin, so though correlation is indeed not causation (how often have I heard that?...as though correlation disproved causation), I throw this out as a cautionary tale to others who might--though you certainly warned them not to--use a statin (I don't know about Oreos) to tank their LDL just to see. THANK YOU!
One of the side effects of heavy statin use is muscle cramping and muscle wasting, so there must be a tie-in with mitochondria somewhere...
What were the symptoms? I've tried statins twice which caused really bad muscle pains and cramping. I've since changed to eating carnivore, and though my LDL is very high, at least for now I'm convinced it's not a danger given all the research I've done from youtube videos, anecdotes, and studies.
I"m an LMHR 55yo female with same numbers/history as the LMHR study cohort average. Raised my carbs over the last year, to around 100G of fruit, honey, maple syrup, fermented/low-tox veg, and allulose, which is not insignificant for a little (~113lb) old lady. My LDL went up a hair to 288. Shrug.
the effect of lowering the cholesterol is a result of taking you out of ketosis. Youre likely not eating enough sugar to take you out if ketosis. 100G of oreos has more sugar than 100G of fruit.
Thank you Nick for sharing your research to the world via social media. It helps broadening horizons and bring information to the open debates that were left behind closed doors before. This is so important, I hope your channel grows exponentially. Thank you !
Thank you WrathBoup. I appreciate your kind words.
Please invite Dr Alo to discuss this with you. He needs the education.
Some people aren't ready to learn... x.com/nicknorwitz/status/1783839033669353522
You are very important person in the medical field right now and someone who is desperately needed to give it a shake up.
😊😉
FYI I paid $100 for a pair of stereo microphones 🎙️ n Amazon
Beautifully reasoned and presented. For the benefit of those who are new to your channel I would always explicitly state that a keto diet underlies both conditions - I think it’s important to emphasize that the Oreos had this effect on someone who was in ketosis. You might also give a shout out to Dave Feldman who I believe manipulated his LDL this way.
Dave hasn't done Oreo vs Statin. I said up front I'm assume knowledge, and Dave of course features heavily in my content.
It’s good to know I have options that I actually enjoy eating should I want to lower my numbers 😃
Thanks for this reply!
Hey (can) I'd (you) like (interview) an (Dr) Oreo (Anthony) flavored (Jay) statin
Srry for code but YT removes it if I dont write like this
Idk who AJ is
I have a question that has been bothering me for quite sometime after I watched the Oreo video, does that mean lean mass hyper-responder dont really need to worriy about LDL ? Is eating healthy carb ok for people who have been on a low cab dite for a long time ?
I would also like to know the answer to your first question☺️ After a year on keto/stm.very low carb -30kg, TG plunged, HDL went up. Increase in Total cholesterol up to 377 and LDL 300. My GP told me she was proud to see my results. She was the one to encourage me to get rid of sugar but it has been bothering me if it's ok just to ignore my LDL.
Theoretically the Ezetimibe would be the most effective treatment to lower cholesterol in LMHRs.
My cholesterol, as a LMHR, increases directly within two days when changing diet.
Since the Ezetimibe blocks the cholesterol uptake in the intestines its impact will be substantial and much more effective than a statin.
In this case N=1 has a purpose, to get attention about a topic that probably needs further scientific investigation. There will always be those trying to pick apart findings for their own gains. You’ve been nothing but transparent and creative. What’s next Nick?
You’ll have to wait and see. 2025 will be exciting 😉
I really wish I had 2 million dollars to give you.... I couldn't.
Think of a better person to put better use to it scientifically!
Appreciate it :):)
Fun idea, fixing diabetes-2 with 1 can of spam and 2 cans of corned beef a day for 2 or 3 weeks. Should beter than insulin.😂
Better than Oreos
In theory could the processed food companies now promote their items as cholesterol lowering? I can see it now. The big box of Oreos with the tagline "Lowers bad cholesterol by X%". 😆
Isn’t that was Cheerios already does? Honey Nut Cheerios is better than Oreos but not by all that much
In the hospital setting, do you see many other doctors willing to sincerely utilize diet over pharmaceuticals as a medical intervention? Us lay people frequently hear that coursework around diet and nutrition is woefully under represented in med school and thus, by default, the decades-old "food pyramid" style of eating (heavy grains, low meat) is still promoted. Love to hear your thoughts on modern medicine being focused on symptom treatment using drugs vs disease prevention and health maintenance using diet and exercise. Thanks and appreciate all your content!
"diet and nutrition is woefully under represented in med school" -- true. And that which is taught is generally, in my opinion, not representative of the best science but rather rationalizing a failed status quo. Granted, I have a strong opinion, but that's my opinion nevertheless.
Doctors have to follow guidelines or be struck off. Don't expect them to use their brains
Can you interview Dr. Anthony Jay?
I hope someone funds your research mate, and to those misrepresenting your findings, hopefully karma will have something to say about it. Good work Nick, keep goin mate 👊😎
I hope so too re $. Re those misrepresenting… got a video for them coming 😉
Hi Doctor, what about pentadecanoic acid (C15:0)?
Very interesting FA. Odd chain SFA 15:0 and 17:0 appear to have certain health benefits, and some have even labeled them “essential” or conditionally essential. There was a great Nature Comms paper on it, I think 2019.
I curious to know if you experienced any adverse effects from the Staton phase of your experiment? Did you start to get digestive issues returning when you were cookie phase of your experiment?
Myalgias and mildly elevated CK. Yes the Oreos were a tummy grenade
One of the world's leading lipidologists Thomas Dayspring suggests that keeping your APOB below 80ng/DL prevents the formation of plaque within the arteries. Has any of your research been able to demonstrate keeping your APOB below this threshold? Also noting that this is a recommendation for healthy individuals. He looks to aim for below 40ng/DL for high risk individuals.
I have my thoughts on Thomas Dayspring. His mentor is William Cromwell, who you’ll note is an author on the Oreo paper. Tom himself is not well-informed about #LMHR. I’ve spoken with a handful of his associates who agree that - while he’s a smart man - he’s not up to date on this phenotype nor the LEM physiology behind it
@nicknorwitzPhD I think there are many well informed and educated people that agree with Thomas Dayspring. Peter Attia being one with high credibility. So have you observed any results below 80mg/dl in LMHRs?
Yeah eating crap lowers ldl . But perhaps lowering triglycerides might be better. We have been lied to yet again
Read the Oreo paper and check the figures… you may be surprised…
Would be probably prudent to emphasize that this Oreo cholesterol lowering applies only to LMHR. (Even if it was mentioned in passing here and there). Individuals who are metabolically compromised will not be able to manipulate their cholesterol levels eating Oreos. Am I correct?
I think he mentioned it more than _"in passing"._
Of course what you said is true. I feel like I hammer this point pretty hard. You may enjoy my conversation with Professor Willett
First! Love your content!
THANKS!
Much too much talking. Make it short and simple, please ?
Something tells me your sprit animal is a squirrel 🐿️
It is my observation that lean mass hyper responders exercise a lot. In nature most carnivores do not. They are ambush predators and tend to sleep a lot.
Perhaps you should severely restrict your exercise and see what that does to your cholesterol.
Okay… I’ll run less than a cheetah and report back 😂
No Lame Norton is Lame. Sorry but he is not a genuine person from what I’ve seen on many of his posts
I’ve been quite clear I think his analysis is shallow. I’ll leave it at that
I am heartened by this update. And I hope that more research is conducted by more people.
Me too!
Its good to see academia actually curious about your results instead of scoffing at it.
Yep! X gives a weird filter. Don’t imagine Alo is average ;) … FAR from it
Basically intelligent common sense adult, are you looking for a unicorn here?
LOL! And/or supporting natural selection
oreos contain plant sterols that also lower LDL, compounding effect?
Unlikely. On even vegan keto my ldl >300
@@nicknorwitzPhD yes but compared to what? Was it as 'high' as more animal based keto?
If different fats, oils, proteins and sterols have different changes to levels then this may also have a compounding effect. This reminds me of an experiment Dave did years ago where to avoid confounding he used lollies almost entirely made of dextrose.
Nick why do they want you to take a statin if your ldl is OK?
I have not advocated for or against any individual taking a statin. Not my place (or anyone’s place) on social media. I never said my ldl is “okay”
U don’t sell Oreo but m&m instead 😊😊😊
Objectively a better tasting Candy…
Thank you for exploring this subject to challenge the dogma.
I recognize this is not medical advice. With that being said I am very active in the gym. 6’2” 175 very lean, eat a very strict carnivore diet with a total cholesterol just north of 400, 96 HDL, trig 100.
I am a veteran that goes to the VA for my healthcare, they are losing their mind.
I’ve stayed calm and explained my reasons and they are pressuring w/ Cardiologists etc. if you found yourself in this situation what supporting information would you think would be helpful. I’m not trying to be rude, smug, or disrespectful to them but it hasn’t gone well so far.
random question, what is your scientific vs personal opinion on caffeine ?
Coffee is healthy. Coffee is necessary... esp as a medical student trying to survive the winter and/or nights.
@@nicknorwitzPhD loll agreed, idk if you’ve tried butter coffee but it's life changing. Mix a hot cup of joe with 2-3 tablespoons of butter. It's even more heavenly if you use a blender to mix them together.
Thank you for all the hard work, its is inspiring me to work harder and pursue higher education. Can’t reconfigure academia from the outside looking in. Glad to see that there are good true scientists in the space
I got similar movement of my numbers with fermented sourdough bread, but it took 200 grams per day as I am 205 lbs.
Sounds healthier!
Love the content and info! Keep it up! 💪🏻 👏🏻
Also, wear headphones. Your videos often have one audio channel…
Ya sorry about that... my editor promised me this was two channel... I've put him on 'light' notice... in my haste (tis my life) I didn't double check. My sincere apologies
Why the lowering of LDL a good thing . About half of the people with heart disease have normal LDL. If you think about it LDL is really the victim caused by eating processed carbohydrates and process oils leading to Oxidation of LDL.
My husband had a CAC Score of 288. Then he had a CTCA which revised the CAC score to 388. My husband has been Carnivore for the last 150 days and the doctor wants him on a low fat diet and prescribed him Lipitor. I thought the next step should be the catheter test (can’t remember the name) But they are pushing HARD for statins
I truly enjoy your thought process. Im only a retired Firefighter that always !thought outside the box. It got me in so much trouble LOL. Ty for your curiosity! Keep up the great questioning!
"only a retired Firefighter" ... wtf is "only" supposed to mean here? HERO! And, yes, curiosity can get you into trouble... TBH... WORTH IT!
@@nicknorwitzPhDI agree, give yourself more credit than that. How many others put themselves at risk on a daily basis. You are to be commended.
@@halburke9115 True... this would be a hard expt to recruit for...
Ha ha...u just described me...retired ff, outside box, etc. LMHR too.
When I was 19 someone asked me what I did. I said oh I'm just a typist. He pulled me up on the "just". I've never forgotten that and I'm 66 now. I was a stay at home mum and made sure that I never said just a mum.
Very inspiring. Although lipidology needs you and your team. What the world really needs is you doing workshops for the political class on communication. Especially your ability to highlight why negative trolling actually is harmful to everyone, yourself and your underlying message. I note the high volume insults have been toned down dramatically on the L Norton front, I don't expect it was my paltry influence.
Oreo cookies are a better health food than a stick of butter without a doubt.
Ugh… I may disagree
For me, as a LMHR, the next questions that needs to be answered are this:
Is it worth giving up the health benefits of a low carb diet for the health benefits of lower LDL and apoB? What’s the tradeoff and where on the carb intake/LDL continuum do the curves cross? Much more research seems to be needed.
Getting results predicted by a reasonably looking model is not really that surprising. What's more surprising is why it didn't work for Shawn Baker. *That's* what I'm curious about.
Anyone know if oxidized LDL-C is lower in LMHR individuals than those with similar LDL-C levels who are less metabolically healthy? Could this explain the difference in long term CV risk across populations with high LDL?
I am finding that individuals within this community that have tested high for LDL are contemplating using this carbohydrate protocol as a cheat code to 'get out of jail' with their more conventional doctors or avoid the uncomfortable refusal to take a statin conversation altogether. From your paper, there did not seem to be a negative impact to TG or HDL while on this short term protocol but I do wonder if an NMR would not have provided additional helpful detail? I wonder what long term impact might there be for TG, HDL, LDL particle size etc.? And in some fashion, did you just prove that an optimal human diet for non-carb addicted people includes a daily 100g dose of healthy, well tolerated carbohydrates? Apologies if you covered this somewhere else but I was too intrigued not to ask the question.
I'll narrow in on one thing: "on this short term protocol" ... as a rule acute doesn't translate well to chronic in diet studies. Lipid dynamics in LMHR (and others) can be VERY dynamic. So it does not follow that "Oreo treatment" for a year would manifest the same results as for 1 week.
I was thinking of doing exactly this. For years I had LDL in the 110-130 range...no meds. mix of carbs and typical diet, but not super unhealthy diet with a hiking/biking lifestyle, maybe 10lbs overweight... doctor not too happy over most of that time...2 yo younger brother 4 years ago... more sedate lifestyle, got a heart attack (he's 59, I'm 61 now)...over the past 3 years, moved myself to more intermittent fasting, cutting sugars, eating low carb, more fat and sat. fat....2 months ago, LDL was up to 179 (TG 60, HDL 55, TC 246), doctor demanded statins...I said no...he agreed to retest late this summer after I modify my diet more. I had fasted about 22 hours...more than usual, and had fasted 24+ hours 48 hours before the 22 hour fast. I think it was an unusual test for me due to all the extended fasting, but we will see. I have since gotten tested on my own via Ulta Labs and am waiting for a lipid fractionalization test result as I type this - a test my doctor didn't seem to even know about. I may cut some of the butter for more avocado and olive oil, but will continue to stay away from the seedier oils. I'm going to continue with self-ordered tests and see if a bump of carbs a week or two ahead of the blood draw drops LDL. I am not a LMHR though, as BMI stands at 25.9.
@@beltrams If you are doing your own labs, see if reducing the fasting window before a blood draw helps. I watched a Dave Feldman video a while back where he showed that fasting too far beyond 12 hours can really blow up your TG and LDL. I think if you check out his channel, you might find the actual video and correct me if I'm remembering wrong. I also once heard Laura Spath comment that she makes sure to eat her last meal between 12-14 hours before a blood draw to get what she feels is the most accurate result as well. Hopefully you find what works best for you and keeps your doctor happy too!
I'd be curious if any other component of Oreos has an impact on your LDL, not just the carbohydrates. What do you think about repeating the experiment with pure glucose, pure vegetable oil etc? Or do we already have data to support this anyway?
My left ear can't hear anything.
Might have some wax in there… definitely not the speaker on stereo instead of mono 😉
I took both niacin and B5 for 2 weeks. Reduced my total and LDL cholesterol by 100 points.
Why is it working? It couldn’t be because the cholesterol is getting used up, in response to the damage caused by all that glucose?
My right ear enjoyed this video
And protected the hair cells in your left ear too. Win-win! You’re welcome 😜
It's great that the medical community is not so stubborn that they cannot look at how their existing models are inadequate, but there is another question that needs to be asked.
Is lower LDL desirable?
The currently-accepted model of Cholesterol and health has a dubious history and was always applied in the context of the SAD. We need more research on the relationship between Cholesterol, arterial disease, and overall health.
Please have a prolonged fasting study on metabolic diseases. 7days, 14 days up to 40 days
Does Chips Ahoy works too?
Aye aye captain
Well one thing I know is as soon as I add fruit and sugars to my diet my triglycerides and blood sugar levels go up
Great slogan for your channel.
“Stay Curious!”
❤ it !
Thanks... I stand by that mantra 110%
@@nicknorwitzPhD
Gotta tell you one of the comments you made that made me love your POV was an interview where you were talking about Dave F.
You were like….”who is this guy?! He keeps asking these GREAT questions!”
From that moment I knew you two guys were “it” for me. You two are kindred spirits… I hope you both stay good life long friends and collaborators.
Quite different from the disgust I feel towards Attia and Norton’s friendship. Those two deserve each other!
STAY CURIOUS!!❤️👍
@@jimo559 " I hope you both stay good life long friends and collaborators." -- Thanks :). I feel very lucky to have Dave as my brother from another mother.
Can I volunteer for the study?
"Funded by Nabisco"
= Does does Sucralose effect triglycerides and insulin the same way aspartame does or is it fine to eat the same way like Allulose ?