Coins prove how Islam was actually created by the caliphs /Pt.-3 (Odon Lafontaine on Pfanderfilms 8)
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Odon Lafontaine is back with Jay Smith for the last part of his study of the coins and inscriptions from the 7th century and early 8th century.
Original video: • Odon's Coins prove ISL...
Odon Lafontaine's website: thegreatsecret... (with the pdf file of the presentation)
We start with coins and inscriptions from Abd al Malik's time. They prove how he pretended to be the one who was to establish God's kingdom on earth, and was the first to do so by creating the first caliphate. He so got rid of the previous expectations that Jesus was to come back physically to Jerusalem to establish his kingdom of justice.
As the building of the Dome of the Rock and its inscriptions prove it, Abd al Malik pictured himself as an equivalent to the Messiah Jesus, whose return was then transferred to another end of times, and another location: the minaret of the Umayyad mosque in Damascus, Abd al Malik capital city.
Abd al Malik's Umayyad successors then ruled like him, as "God's Caliphs" (khalifat allah: God's lieutenants on earth), according to the new empire model he founded. But when the Abbassids took power over them, they could not justify their new power with the same claims as the one they just defeated. They hence claimed a direct divine intervention. So they needed a divine revelation, and so they needed a prophet, a holy book, a holy place, and a new holy narrative. They so created islam, and became "God's apostle Caliphs" (khalifat rasul allah: successors of Muhammad).
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
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Growing up in Iraq under Saddam, we were taught in school (5th grade history in the 80s) that Abdulmalik was a champion of Arab nationalism and was promoting Arabic language. I remember we were disgusted because we were tired of Arab nationalism everywhere (we were all Kurds) but now I think maybe Saddam and Ba’ath party were up to something, Abdulmalik did really promote Arab self rule.
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I love Odon,
And I hope you love him too.
Haha yes
Thank you Odon! although I think you are jumping quickly to some conclusions some of the facts clearly show that the SIN is an uncoordinated and random build up that led to a strange outcome. Great work.
My conclusions are only what I believe to be the most likely hypothesis based on the sources and material we have. One could argue this as it is not the "truth revealed"
Odon what is the book you mentioned at 1h09
Robert Hoyland's _In God's Path_
Dr Odon, do you think that the Real Muhammad and his stories in Hadith might be actually about the real Person of Caliph Abd Al Malik around 691 rather than an earlier muhammad that Islam says...May be the Real Muhammad and his stories about his 12 wives and all other crazy things in Islam may be about the life and times of Abd al Malik the real Hero of Islam...What is your opinion???
I think the Islamic Muhammad is an invention made by the creators of the standard Islamic narratives, as they wrote the sira and the hadith and the tafsir and all the traditions.
The invention was loosely made with some actual events from the beginning of the 7th cent, some of them might be related to one or several persons who bore the "muhammad" title.
The invention also took some elements from the Umayyads: they took items from Marwan biography and attributed them to the Islamic Muhammad (especially his wife Aisha). They might also have taken elements from Marwan's son, Abd al Malik, but I don not know about that.
But mostly, the many details of the life of the Islamic Muhammad were invented to give an Islamic meaning to the Quran (the invention of the Asbab al Nuzul, the "circumstances of revelation"), to justify Islam, to justify the Caliphs'power and the administration of the caliphate (creating so the sharia law). And also to justify the Caliphs behaviour with money, loot, slaves, sex, women, etc.
@@OdonLafontaine but still the question remains who is the actual Muhammed of the quran with a wife called aisha and his other 12 wives...was he one of the caliphs or someone else....because someone must be there whose stories they are writing...no story comes from thin air...all stories are based on some real people in real time.
@@OdonLafontaine German sholars called it the Island of Thule of Islam. Did you read the book of Norbert Pressburg ?
@@OdonLafontaine I came to a similar
@@OdonLafontaine sorry about that, I came to a similar conclusion through a look at Islam through the slave trade. I was particularly astounded to find that Arabic scholars are debating why caliphates need Eunuchs to function properly. With other unfavourable sexual practices one has to wonder if this is about more than stopping a slave fornicating with your wife. Thanks for the good work.
This channel should be getting more viewers and subscribers
It will my friend, very soon. My English book is almost ready, and I intent to promote it here.
@OdonLafontaine thank you for this brother Odon. May Yeshua be magnified through your ministry.
Mr Odon.. what do you think about the secret of rabi Simon bar yohai ? Is it true ?
how do you deal with the argument these gradually changes were due to Byzantine refusal of the coins. which indeed happened. and then when they grew stronger they put more and more islamic stuff on the coins. at leas we can see the same procedure (stepwise abrogation) with alcool in the Quran.
It actually happened for Muawiya and Abd al Malik's gold coins which they minted to pay tribute to the Byzantine emperor (and which he refused).
Anyhow, we are considering a fiftyish period of time. Which means that before Abd al Malik, there was no islamic power strong enough to assert Islam
Besides, in the East, they kept on with zoroastrian coins even though Arab governors were in charge. Which means that Islam did not even exist during their time
@@OdonLafontaine yes, likewise its strange that all dates on the coins (Ive seen so far) appear without an reference point like AH after the date .. or ie. kata araba as in the Gadara inscription. I see only the number HPTAT "haftad" for 70 and on the other side the place of origine ie. BYSH for Bishapour.
There were dates on the eastern coins
Bonjour il nous manque un peu la traduction en français s'il vous plaît merci
Vous avez la traduction automatique de UA-cam (les trois points en bas de la vidéo)
Et vous trouverez sur ma chaine une autre vidéo ("Jesus dans le proto islam") en français sur ce même sujet (mais un peu plus courte). J'ai mis le lien dans la vidéo.
Abdul Malik means the servant or slave of the king. It’s possible he was born in an aristocratic family loyal to the Lakhmid or Ghassanid kings.
There is also the hypothesis that he came from Merv (Margiana), north of the Sassanid empire since his father's name was Marwan
Bonjour pourquoi c'est pas en français ?
Pour intéresser aussi les gens qui parlent anglais.
J’ai des bases en anglais mais Odon vous êtes obligé de faire la traduction please 🥺
J'ai déjà une présentation à peu près équivalente sur ma chaine, en français. Cherchez "Jésus dans le proto-islam"
Le prophète Mahomet n'est pas le plus grands des prophètes...que les Musulmans ne l'oublient jamais....et surtout que Mahomet n'est pas le prophète préféré de Dieu...
In response to the point you start to elaborate about the issue of intercession at 17:34 it is actually the Islamic belief that those who die in the way of the lord are actually "living" (Quran 2:154). It is clearly stated in hadith that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was poisoned by his wives, and thus is considered a Shaheed (martyed) Prophet; this is heavily emphasised among the sunnis and shiis, where the the tombs of the Prophets family (as) are venerated and seen as a means of intercession by the fellowship.
32:27 The Zoroaster symbols look like the moon and the star placed on contemporary mosques.
Odon je suis un ancien musulman tu parles de l’origine de l’slam ok mais ce que tu ne s’est pas c’est que les rédacteurs de la bible et du coran ont copié sur les sumériens la bible aussi est fausse.
faux par rapport à quoi ?
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tout cela ne répond pas à ma question
So idiot to say that caliphs crearted all (coran, hadiths , all history of islam ); Maybe we can say that politics interfered to manipulte some hadiths but creating all the systems of hadiths is impossible, ther's chiaa hadiths, sounna hadiths and ibadhi hadiths. they are so different politically but there is a big amount of hadiths accepted by them. The same coran is accepted by different scts of islam. Do not be so silly please. Can some one reasonnable say that Christianity has been created by the kings?
Sunnis and Shias were united together in the Abbasid coaliton.
It is the Abbasid power that standardized the Quran and imposed the Standard Islamic Narrative (standardized sira, main traditions)
The actual divorce between Shias and Sunnis happened after all of this.
This is why Sunnis and Shias share the same Quran, and the same core of standardized traditions
Impossible de débattre sans être un expert soi-même mais il reste forcément un peu le regret que tout l'édifice soit assez spéculatif. D'abord l'inversion sujet attribut sur Muhammad, puis maintenant la transformation en prénom, où le fait que AbdlMalik s'attribue ce titre, tout ça sont des hypothèses très plausibles, à force d'être compatibles avec les artefacts, mais qu'on aimerait avoir des preuves formelles. J'espère aussi qu'un jour vous pourrez développer l'Histoire de l'alliance Abassides-Shiites, et que que faisaient les shiites qui ne s'y soumettaient pas, et comment et pourquoi ça s'est terminé.
Pour une part, il s'agit en effet d'histoire en pointillés, et de formulation d'hypothèses. Mais la recherche historique, c'est la formulation d'hypothèses, la recherche des hypothèses les plus probables, les plus plausibles, les plus à même d'expliquer les pointillés de l'histoire.
Je ne prétends certainement pas détenir la vérité historique, mais avoir formulé une hypothèse plausible qui explique tous les pointillés.
Comme telle, cette hypothèse est critiquable, améliorable, contestable, et peut-être sera-t-elle dépassée un jour par de meilleures hypothèses, ou parce que la découverte de nouveaux éléments pourrait la rendre caduque. C'est le propre des hypothèses formulées dans le cadre de la méthode scientifique.
Il y a cependant dans cette hypothèse des éléments "durs", bien étayés, bien sourcés. Comme le projet de reconstruction du Temple de Jérusalem porté par certains Arabes. Ou bien la quasi inexistence de l'islam avant Abd al Malik et même après lui.
Et il reste encore beaucoup, beaucoup de boulot.
@@OdonLafontaine Oui, bien sûr Odon, je sais tout ça, ne vous inquiétez pas, il n'y a aucune critique de ma part sur votre travail, que j'admire beaucoup, comme tout le monde, j'exprime juste un ressenti sur les pointillés qu'on préférerait probablement tous en trait continu, et qui ne sont absolument pas de votre fait. Je l'exprime parce que vous nous invitez au débat et pour écrire un commentaire parce que ça soutient la chaîne, tout en espérant qu'un jour des pièces supplémentaires viendront consolider le puzzle, mais ça n'a rien d'une accusation.
@@soulliker6837 😃 Merci ! C'est bien comme cela que j'avais compris votre commentaire
de lautre coter Mohamet avec une croix chretienne, la jaurais dit enlevons la croix avant d ajouter Mohamet, sinon ca a lair tres maladroit en tt cas !? hhh
N'est-ce pas ?
A moins que MHMD désigne qq chose de "chrétien", comme Jésus, ou comme un prophète "chrétien"
Mhmd a lorigine cest un titre divin ou en cas dun homme cest un blaspheme, pcq tt les louanges vont au dieu (aussi en l islam je pense).
Ce serait interessant de rechercher quelle forme est plus authentique et plus ancienne MHMD ou MHMT par rapport a ce predicateur "arabe" tjr vivant en 634 et 636 AD. ...
Le témoignage écrit le plus ancien dont nous disposons est la pièce de monnaie Ghassanide
it is a syriac cross. see image on this link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosier
You mean a crosier?
@@OdonLafontaine yes. Somehow the syriac crosier is connected to the staff of moses with snake which is a prefigurement of Christ on the cross.