Romulan Tactics of 2155-2161 (Early Starfleet)
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- The next video looking into the Romulan's acts during the early Starfleet era drawn from the post Enterprise books. The Coalition of Planets was hard pressed to provide counters to many of the Star Empire's strategies, mostly due to their own mistakes.
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This Video is for critical purposes with commentary.
Starfleet's issues make since when you think about it. At this time Archer is the most experienced commander in Starfleet, he's been in one battle after another. Yet it took him a full year with far smaller skirmishes to become competent, and even then not till the Xindi war was he truly a become a competent commander. It would be assumable that Starfleet hasn't yet started training like a pseudo-military outfit like you see in Kirk's years onward, so its very likely that the remainder of Starfleet hadn't yet begun to train for combat scenarios and tactics. Therefore, it would be realistic that they would basically be ill equipped and take a while to catch up to a far more experienced enemy.
Makes sense. That, along with building cheaper ships explains the length of the war, and how it turned into a war of attrition
I could buy the excuse that humans "just weren't used to warfare because they had become such a peaceful race"... if the show Enterprise hadn't happened. By that time Archer and his crew would have told Starfleet to build guns, lots of guns, and devise strategies for coming conflicts. Earth may be a peaceful paradise but the galaxy at large is a shit show.
To put it more constructively than Flekk Bone Gnawer put it... 🙄
Enterprise/Archer was just one ship/crew, and no matter how many guns Starfleet made, theyd b next to useless without an experienced crew to use them.
Jope Lamp - What are you even saying....
"They avoided our warp detection grid!"
"Impossible! How?"
"They didn't approach it at warp!"
"Damn it, how could we have ever foreseen such a dastardly ploy. Dispatch our most powerful Oberth at once!"
"Do those even exist yet?"
maybe the warp delta was the orberth class of that time ^^
My thought at "They didn't approach it at warp!" was that the writers failed at remembering just how big Space is, and how long it takes to go even short distances at sub-light speeds (since you can't practically travel at relativistic speeds: the energy requirements are so incredibly high).
@@RonJohn63 I mean, space is big. Stupidly big. So big that I honestly don't think we're currently capable of comprehending how big it is.
Sci fi has struggled with believable (not "Realistic", that's a different thing) travel times for a long, long time. Most ships, even in somewhat harder series such as the Expanse, tend to travel at the speed of plot.
It mostly comes down to trying to figure out exact travel times and acceleration curves and all that being a lot of work for little reward. The only people who will care about that are nitpickers, really, and usually only to criticize something as "unrealistic" in bad faith, which means it's rarely worth it to even try.
@@BoisegangGaming these "nitpickers" are a huge chunk of the fan base. More importantly, it's exposing fridge logic.
That's fine in TV shows that reset after every episode, and in stand-alone movies, but *it's horrible in the middle of books.*
Obvious plot holes spoil the Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
@@RonJohn63 I think we overstate the importance of people who discuss crap on the internet.
The vast majority of fans of a series are going to be people who see something, think its good or bad, and then move on with their lives.
The internet has lead to this obnoxious amount of fan entitlement from a variety of fanbases where the vocal minority throw a tantrum because something isn't exactly what they want, and when they get exactly what they want, they throw a tantrum because it's not what they want anymore.
It's easy to think that, because people like us discuss stuff online, so do most other people. I don't remember the name of the phenomenon, but just because we have an experience doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be the experience of the majority.
Do you know how many people care about fridge logic? Not many. Many don't know what that word even means beyond the people who spend too much time on TV Tropes (guilty), and when they do have those realizations, those are mostly shrugged off. Our method of media consumption is not the norm at all.
There's also parts where, for the vast majority of people, "realism" can hurt a fictional story. Are there exceptions, such as the Skyrim Fast Travel in GoT? Yes. But when it comes to travel speeds in a universe with faster than light travel, plot speed works more often than not (see: pretty much every star trek movie ever)
So the Federation has the Romulans to thank for the philosophy of their engineers to think outside the box.
The Romulan's are the Streisand Effect on a galactic scale.
Further Starfleet "mistakes".
Not using the Cloaking detector that happened to be left on the NX Enterprise.
Not reverse engineering the same and mass producing it… [what timeline integrity?].
Not getting their hands on their own Cloaking technology, they had a few options…
Hit up Trips baby mama for the specs (they really should've done that at the time).
Grab a Suliban Cell Ship, they have info on the Cabal and a operation to steal one wouldn't be too difficult.
[Trip also had a basic understanding from tinkering on one, transfer him to engineering HQ to try and develop the theory].
Nicely ask the Suliban for the specs ["we win and we'll include the Suliban people in the Federation - they will have a Home and backup, they can settle on our Worlds in peace". Many Aliens that subjugate the Suliban would be agreeable to a "we'll take them completely off your hands and out of your territory offer"].
The Cabal joining Starfleet is a massive power up. And if you include their individual upgrades… ("look, we know you're all sensitive cause of the Augments incident, but this is a adult surgical biomod - imagine your crew being able to cope with decompression").
Do special missions to try and acquire any advanced tech they encountered before on their explorations…
Also Mix and match their best counter in technologies amongst the Federation.
All Federation ships get Human computer systems to prevent hacking. There would be issues with running it, but perhaps just communications needs the "downgrade" as it's the gateway.
Conversely install the best weapons and shields they have across the board. Andorian "defensive" technology becomes the standard in Starfleet.
Look at the complete pile of tech they have and go "hmm, we'll use this and this and this, not this as the Romulans can hack it".
And base their shipyard manufacturing around the best combat/logistics design of the combined Federation.
Perhaps a optimised Andorian combat frigate with Human computers.
As for the Romulans.
Instead of squandering their advantage by doing slow and steady while hoping a counter isn't developed, once they know it works go for a knockout blow.
Target Starfleet shipyards around Earth, perhaps including a feint elsewhere just so they can true to their misdirection creed.
That could ensure victory then and there, if not rinse and repeat at other important military infrastructure.
But both sides need to get rid of their strategic advisors from the Star Wars universe.… …
Sooooo.....become Borg but being nice about it......
@@zabaleta66 in theory that's starfleet,right? Get more people to join you nicely,let them help you ,use all their strengths... That's how it should happen with the premises,right?
Can’t they set up an “impulse detection grid”? I mean, the things gotta have a tailpipe.
I imagine it's like earthquake detection, something going at low enough speeds just wouldn't register cause there's all sorts of things that could in theory reach high sub-light speeds
Can we get one of these videos focusing on the andorians, please
ua-cam.com/video/R5ReYapi2xA/v-deo.html
Just finished working on it. But the books don't go into much detail on the Andorian or Tellar POV when compared to Romulus and Vulcan, so after 568 pages, there's only a little bit to go on.
Part of the issue might be explained by infiltration of romulans. This was a key tactic all the way into the 24th century. Its hard to set up defense and tactics when your enemy is on the inside and undermining your efforts.
Infact it was probably a blessing in descuise that the vulacans where stand offish. The fewer vulcans involved in things like research and tactics lessened the chance of the infiltration.
Wait! Enterprise, Columbia, Challenger and then Discovery? WHY DIDN'T I NOTICE THAT BEFORE? 😅
Because you didn't read the Enterprise series of books maybe?
@@aerospacecadet9781 I didn't, but I had seen the names for the NXs before, and it didn't "click" until now 🤣
Atlantis and endeavor are next
I have a massive problem with this whole scenario. In canon, Starfleet has the ability to detect vessels at warp from several light years away, therefore it would take years to travel the distance between the limits of sensor range and the target.
Its even worse if they were trying to slip through a border because you would have to stay at sub-light for double the distance needed to destroy the sensors, which could mean 5 years of chugging across space, hardly stealthy...
Even if we assume that thee sensors around planets only have enough range to detect warp within their solar system, thats still hours or days of sub-light travel. We already have radar powerful enough to bounce off other solar system objects, are we really supposed to believe that by 2155 we couldnt detect a ship travelling sub light for hours?
Romulan ships moving 74000km/s are not common objects. In addition in tv show that detection of warp is determined by how it suits to the screenwriters, sometimes they detect ships for 15 light-years, sometimes the ship emerges from the warp without noticing it.
I agree!
Space is big. Space is hard.
(The latter being a quote by General Naird.)
@Jope Lamp ARE you human, or 1 of those 'composer' bots, that write copy in spam emails, that make 0 sense?
@Jope Lamp Don't you do understandable English.
I think after the attack on earth enterprise The earth government would’ve acted like the American government after Pearl Harbor they would’ve invested 70% of the GDP and building defensive weapons store they would’ve had at least 10 NX Ships by the time the Romulan war started as well as impulse patrol ships defensive satellite systems ground bass torpedo batteries
The Star Trek Legacywhich I do not know if it is canon or not had Yorktown class Starships, those would have easily handled those Romulans. Yet I see no mention of them here.
@Chris George Ah, I thought as much, so would you say they turned the tide of the war? Since I saw no ship of the Star Empire which could counter them
The Breen next? 🥰
I remember reading those books and thinking "Oh, nukes. Cool I guess."
Nukes are pretty useless in space unless you get really close
Those books were terrible! Major disappointment.
@@lanebowles8170 I didn't hate them personally.
In the TOS era, the Romulans used Birds Of Prey, the Warbirds were TNG era Romulan ships
Funny as we tend to see humanity and their Starfleet seem to be so incompetent in this book series because in the rest of the franchise they are highly resourceful and imaginative. Granted it is in the "don't wake the sleeping dragon" kind of way so I suspect them to finish the war strong.
The only other time Starfleet was this worst of a shape was the 1st season of Discovery following the death of Kol, the fracturing of the Klingon Empire worsen and each Great House develop their own tactics to fight Starfleet instead of keeping a united front.
What is Discovery? Oh STD, yeah we don't consider that canon. The days of uncaring, money hungry companies telling us what is and is not canon is past. Disney screwed us by destroying the Expanded Universe, CBS will not do the same. Discovery IS NOT PRIME universe.
@@ParagonRex I love how fans try to say what is and isn't canon, yet that's up to the owner. Though, I still have to watch DSC.
@@ParagonRex 3 things
1) You do know you are trying to pick a fight about what is canon in a video that describes events from novel series aka beta sources or as you put it NOT PRIME universe?
2) Certifiably Ingame references Discovery all the time in his videos
From his look at the Visor -> ua-cam.com/video/aELLLEVHEmw/v-deo.html
Here is Rick talking about Disco's workerbee in his shuttlebay video-> ua-cam.com/video/eLi3GcZcSY0/v-deo.html
So sorry Mr. Borg...next time speak as an individual instead of assuming what the collective "we" consider to be as canon
3) and let me closed this post by being a little blunt, I honestly don't care if you hate Discovery and I don't need to be reminded of this every time I dare make a passing reference to the show. So please grow up & accept it... after all it been 3 years at this point, aren't you tried trying derail civil discussions with pointless flame wars that changes absolutely nothing?
Only Vaadwaur and Tzenkethi have the best tactics. Just destroy everything in front of you with heavy artillery then talk.
The warp detection grid only makes sense to circumvent if there is an extreme range limit. If you have a 1 light year range, it takes over a year to sneak in. If coasting works, it's not really useful.
Great video!
Seems like some building lots of orbital defenses would be a good idea, maybe have some positioned around the warp detectors. Assuming they couldn't be hacked like the starship that is.
Considering how vast space is, I doubt they’d have the resources nor the manpower to create enough of such bases, much less fully stocked/repaired/supported in the event of an attack. :/
What about the Franklin class? Slow yes but could it be upgraded with something with a punch?
Can you do a video on Mackenzie Calhoun? Just saw your video on the kobayashi maru test and loved his solution
What was the range of the warp detection grid? Do they need to cross a light year at sublight speeds to avoid it because if so it makes perfect sense why they wouldn't expect the Romulans to cross it at sublight speeds, or is it a million km in which case yeah sure that's piss easy to bypass without tripping an alarm and therefore pretty useless.
I seems like the issue with the detection grid was caused by hubris, not assuming the enemy is as smart as you are. I mean if you made the detection grid so wide that crossing it or at least getting to the sensors would take too long in sublight (remember Warp 1 is the speed of light and a single lightyear is huge in sublight terms but rather short for interstellar distances).
What I do not get how captain Archer could even get into contact with them and that the romulans could get their remote controlled holographic morphing ship AND its backup so far from Romulus so fast. Perhaps if the romulans had access to a wormhole opening up into what later would become deep into Federation territory. If so it would be one of the only assets worth protecting with a minefield. A personal theory of mine.
I find the hole nukes have to effect absurd especially since the photon torpedoes of the next generation era have a theoretical maximum yield of 64 Megatons and the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated Sara Bamba detonated with the yield of almost 50 Megatons on top of that we are dealing with weapons that essentially create a miniature star for a split second.
actually it was "Tsar Bomba". but yes the idea that nukes could only work as flashbangs is dumb. especially considering that A. the main reason that Tsar Bomba wasn't at it's theoretical maximum yield of 100 Megatons was because a bigger bomb would destroy the tu95 that would drop it and B. photon torpedoes deliver their energy in the form of light i.e. the same way a nuke would.
@Flekk Bone Gnawer I'm not saying nukes would be better, only that the statement that they couldn't do damage to a ST vessel when a similar yield photon torpedo can doesn't make sense. (to be fair though i'm not sure if the yield of the nuke in the story is mentioned.)
@Chris George When matter and antimatter annihhilate eachother their mass is converted into energy (E=mc2) that is literally how they work (in real life). What I'm basically saying is that the physics in ST don't make logical sense, if they did the only functional difference between a nuke and a torpedo of the same yield (aside from the variable yield you mentioned) would be the physical size of the warhead. also given that gamma rays are a spectrum of light they would still create radiation (albiet less than a nuke)
Flekk Bone Gnawer That’s a very simplistic way of thinking and as other people have pointed out there are plenty of other reasons why nukes may not be used in Star Trek.
Liked :-)
Given some of the comments I'm already seeing in the comment section (plus the general impression some people get because Starfleet officers try to defuse a situation before resorting to combat), it might be a good idea to do a video on Starfleet's combat strategies, logistics capabilities, etc.
Focusing on what's traditionally referred to as canon of course, especially given how novels like the ones covered here handle things.
Resurrected Starships actually did just such a video a few years back! :D
@@UGNAvalon I'm not a fan of Resurrected Starships. I watched a couple of his videos which were good, but on a bunch of them I ended up headdesking because of the use of apocryphal material without clarifying that and some *very* critical mistakes that left me flabbergasted; such as forgetting that Federation starships have FTL sensors. Though that was years ago so it may have improved since then.
Great video! The Earth-Romulan War is a fascinating era.
Having read Robt. Blish's original book, derived from First Season TOS scripts, it plainly stated that the Earth-Romulan war was fought with Reacton-Powered Ships -- that is- rocket ships. IF you want to talk "canon," let's start here.
Restart all system...nah just blow up!
You know they say nuclear weapons are outdated and harmless to modern starships buuuuuuuut... Take the standard photon torpedo with it's 1kg of matter and 1kg of anti-matter warhead, the amount of energy released when detonated is equivalent to 42 megatonnes of TNT assuming 100% of the anti-matter annihilates 100% of the matter. That's less energy than the Tsar Bomba's 50 MT yield. Not to mention that matter/anti-matter annhilation releases most of it's energy as gamma rays and neutrinos which don't do much damage to things like starship hulls. An anti-matter triggered 100% nuclear fusion warhead would be more effective at a much lower cost than a photon torpedo.
The warp detection grid problem makes zero sense.
If the grid is supposed to give warning it need to detect ships far enough away that a warp 5 ships will take at least hours to cover the distance. Which would mean that a ship at impulse would take A LONG TIME to cover that distance. Impulse drive isn't just a bit slower than warp ffs.
I'm sorry who on zarquonns name would build any computer system without any firewalls? So much of this could of been fixed with decent IT security
Enterprise messed this up.
Did not have cloaking until original series.
They were behind Enterprise in technology.
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I’ll be honest, considering how bad real life military fuck ups are, the warp detection grid fiasco is plausible
Having read the books.. they didn't approach the grid using a warp capable craft.. they used, for lack of a better term, a 'fighter craft' or a 'shuttle' without any sort of warp drive to approach the grids and disable them
Problem, romulans shutting down warp grids. Answer setup dummies with a large surprise, let the party start with a bang!
If warpspeed allows you to go star to star in say a week how big is a warp detection grid? Like seriously even if it was solar system wide (as far as Pluto) you'd have say a few minutes warning till they were at earth.....
This is why i'm kinda glad we didn't get the Romulan War on screen. All the stupid nonsensical shit we'd of seen on all sides.
Those detection grids are pretty weak in Star Trek Enterprise literature in this century. Even while CBS and Paramount were dealing with the fan based Star Trek Horizon film. The failure of copyright protection in the legal system.
so no one thought about just making the main computer isolated so it can't talk to any thing out side of the ship
What about the FREEDOM CLASS vessels like the USS FRANKLIN? Those did exist during Archers time in the Prime Universe.
@Chris GeorgeWatch Star Trek Beyond. The United Earth Starfleet's FREEDOM CLASS starship was introduced in the 2140's. The ship was only armed with pulsed phases cannons and spacial torpedoes. The FREEDOM CLASS was also capable of reaching Warp 4. The ship USS Franklin NX-326 (a Freedom class ship) debuted in Star Trek Beyond (2016). That movie set within the Kelvin Timeline, but the Franklin was in service for almost a century before Nero went back in time and caused the Kelvin Timeline.
This is my favorite era of star trek I think.
Its like we totally forgot how to wage war, yet we had the military still around? I never got the romulan war books, they were bad and badly written. you cant just FORGET how to wage war.
Those Romulan War books were terrible! Also, Enterprise didn't age well in my opinion. Sure it was cool to see what was offered at first and in isolation, but in reference to what would happen and how the books tried to portray it...poorly done!
Honestly I never found anything good about Enterprise.
Ever since the newer STD that fits its abv! I've taken a disliking to all the Discovery ships...
Must have been all that retconning... it can be very confusing. One minute they've got cloaking devices, the next they don't.
4:35 this tactic was used in TNG: Chain of command, but slightly upgraded
It seems like everyone is close to stagnating via technology, romulan singularities, star fleet warp cores, vulcan rings, and what ever the other guys used?
you make me wanna play STO again :( but then i realised how much time and money you need to dump on that game lol...
(0:22 - *recuse)
Please name the episodes. I couldn't remember seeing these stories.
this is based on a book serries
@@sovietdominion thanks.
Really wish they would write the Federation with some semblance of competence in combat.
@Flekk Bone Gnawer Do sod off. =D
@Chris George Before those ships the Federation got it's ass kicked by every power they faced in some form or another. They didn't learn a single damn thing from the many wars they had with the Klingons alone. That's over 200 years of beat downs at heavy losses due to hubris and stubborness. It took the Borg to finally put a boot up their ass and get them building warships and even then there weren't many of them compared to their peers.
@Chris George They got beaten to a standstill by the Cardassians, who's ships at the time were even less advanced than the Klingons. It's more than just moralizing and dithering. They don't, even with Zakdorn aid, have the training, ships, or drive to protect even their central holdings to say nothing of their frontier. It's not that idolizing aggression, or romanticizing war make one powerful, they don't. But in every source TV and otherwise where conflict was the central theme, the Federation have been depicted as toothless and criminally incompetent. It's lazy writing made to generate tension, but only serves to make the protagonists look weak. Little wonder then that so many fans idolize bumpy headed pirates and knife eared fascists.
Awesome video! 👏🏻
please do a video about the transporters in star trek
please do a video about the hutts slaves & the slaves costumes in star wars,please do a video about how to marry & divorce someone in the star trek &star wars universe
algorithm comment
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Umm Discovery isn't cannon if you think it is you aren't a Star Trek fan.
comment😄🖖
Tangent.😉🖖
i love these videos bro, i actually consider those pocket now novels to be the true continuation of cannon lol
How about a complete history of warp speed?