Should the Netherlands Apologize for its History of Slavery?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
- The history of the Netherlands has some very dark sides and one of these was the Dutch participation in the transatlantic slave trade. Via the Triangular trade the Dutch shipped over half a million enslaved Africans to their colonies in the Americas. This was done by the Dutch West India Company (WIC). These slaves were put to work on plantations in Suriname and Curaçao (Dutch Antilles). In recent years the dark sides of the Dutch Golden Age are more elaborated on.
History Hustle presents: Should the Netherlands Apologize for its History of Slavery?
SUPPORT ME ON PATREON ► / historyhustler
SUBSCRIBE ► / @historyhustle
INSTAGRAM ► / historyhustle
FACEBOOK ► / historyhustler
TWITTER ► / hustlehistory
IMAGES
Images from commons.wikimedia.org.
SOURCES
- decorrespondent.nl/7530/afsch...
- www.trouw.nl/religie-filosofi...
- www.oneworld.nl/lezen/discrim...
- nos.nl/artikel/2324943-veel-a...
- nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2290...
MUSIC
"Infados" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
"Ripples" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
"Asian Drums" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
SOUNDS
Freesound.org.
Wanna join forces and do a collaboration? Send me an email at: historyhustle@gmail.com
Dear people,
Keep the discussion civilized. Anyone who makes discriminatory or racist statements will be removed from this platform.
HATE SPEECH, RACISM, XENOPHOBIA, OR SLAMMING OF MINORITIES will lead to an immediate ban.
Dat gaat een druk dagje worden ;-)
Hey Stefan.
laat je alstjeblieft niet in onderwerpen praten waar je je niet comfortabel onder voelt, dat als eerst
Als 2e vind ik dat de Nederlanders moeten doen waar zij zich het beste onder voelen, verontschuldigen of niet het licht in het verleden. de mensen die slavenhandel hebben gedreven zijn klootzakken geweest (excuses voor de taal) maar maakt dat de huidige generaties slavenhandelaars? nee in mijn mening niet want hun hebben niet gekozen dat mensen in het verleden slaven hebben gehandeld.
mvg luna
@@arnoutvankleef3455 No 9 to 5 here!
@@lunarangellic994 Dank voor je reactie. En vrees niet, ik voel mij hier niet oncomfortabel onder. Wellicht zullen de reacties heftiger zijn dan normaal.
@@HistoryHustle Yes. Make sure any hurtful comments are deleted.
Never apologize for what you didn't do
I see.
There are currently 40 million people around the world living in slavery, maybe there should be spend more energy freeing them, than getting former colonial powers to apologise for slavery to people, who have never personally experienced slavery
It seems certain groups just want power and they dont care about current slavery. They got their eye on acquiring some extra personal wealth (jobs, money, easier entrance to universities, etc).
Sad but true.
Fair point, More coffee.
We’re all wage slaves. Its not the same but still...
Thanks for pointing this out.
@@mcfahk tell that to all the organisations protesting the former colonial powers, not me
Hele goeie video! Dit soort videos moet dus massaal bekeken worden. Want heel veel mensen die weten niet waar ze het over hebben. (Vooral over dit soort onderwerpen.) Ook heel goed dat je aan het einde van de video het woord: 'emoties' noemt! Dat heeft er 80% mee te maken.
Bedankt voor je bericht Sander. Ik zag dat je de video op instagram gedeeld had, leuk!
This is a very controversial subject but I think you did an excellent job showing both sides and addressing the core issue
Indeed, a nice approach to this complex matter... I don't think I know the right answer to the question, but I feel that we can start with just listening to each other. In my classroom (I'm a teacher as well) I have had people from all colours (and all political opinons). My finest day was when I put a supporter of the French 'Front National' (Extreme Right wing) to a guy from Nigeria. At the end of the class they were chatting to each other like they had been friends for may years. I guess at that moment they got to know eachother as personalities, not as people with a certain color of skin.
Thank you for your responses.
quick answer: NO
long answer: NO
All the people demanding "apologies" want is billions and billions of Euros in free money.
None of the people alive now in the Netherlands have ever owned slaves, neither did their parents or grandparents, and only a tiny percentage of their great-grandparents may have.
These slaves weren't enslaved by the Dutch, they were enslaved by their fellow africans or by arab slavers.
@Soundwave 47 Only a couple of Dutch companies did, not the Dutch population in general.
@Soundwave 47 From who did our ancestors (Not us Dutch) buy these slaves in the first place? Who enslaved these people?
Maybe you should start protesting against all those countries in which slavery is still very much alive today, like for instance Mauretania. According to Human RIghts Watch there are living approximately 90.000 people as slaves in modern day Mauretania. That is approximately 2,4% of the total population.
But of course it is WAY easier, safer (and probably more profitable as well) to demand apologies from a country that abolished slavery 150 years ago, then actually DO something about a very real problem that still exists in some countries in the present.
Hallo Daar China has the entire ethnicity’s of Manchus, Inner Mongolians, Uyghers and Tibetans as slaves yet nobody demands they apologize.
Can't say it has all to do with money. For some it might be.
Y are right they just want money that they havent worked for they are lazy
LIke all of your entries a clear story. I especially like the way you put things into perspective.
Thank you, Ed.
Very well made as always 👍
Thanks!
Het is zo goed dat jullie het hele plaatje vertellen, dus niet eenzijdige info vertellen. Echt top!
Jullie video's zijn mega interessant, ga zo door!
Bedankt Gábor!
There is another aspect that makes it even more complex: slavery wasn't legal in the Netherlands during that period. African slaves weren't transported to the Netherlands itself. There were some exceptions for foreign slave traders who came with their slaves to the Netherlands for a short time. But other than that, the very few African people that came to the Netherlands were all free people. So the Dutch population in general has never benefitted from the slave trade. Only a few private military companies became wealthy from that trade. The ethnic Dutch population can’t apologize because most of their family lines were never involved in slave trade or the trade of goods that were produced with slave labor. Now whether how much the government benefitted from the slave trade remains to be seen.
Thanks for pointing this out.
That approach, then, was similar to the spanish colonization. As far as I know, almost no blacks were transported to Spain itself...and in the end, the average spanish farmer don´t get any benefit of the colonization or the Empire, in fact, it could be said that the Kingdom of Castille (the central Kingdom of Spain) became poorer with the imperial process. Thanks for this video.
@@RGalindoM Easier said that done. First of all, it was a different time. Economies did not run like they do now. Now, there are much more laws in place both on a national and international level. The entities were basically private military companies that operated out of sight. So it would have been impossible to check what the companies actually did. It was interwoven with legal trading. And it maybe a hard pill to swallow, but the country didn't benefit from it that much. These PMCs were profitable for a while but in the end a number went bankrupt. The profit on slave trade was less than 1% of the total profit on over seas trade. At it's peak less than 5% of the GDP could be linked to slave labour and trade, with some of those links being a big stretch. So the harsh reality is that all that suffering didn't make the country as rich as many people believe. By the way, the city that benefited most of the slave labour was Amsterdam. Ironic given how people view Amsterdam nowadays.
@@burgienl Good points. That how I look at it as well.
Most country's involved in slavery actually did not make that much money on slavery directly, let alone the people of those countries, apart from the wealthy few who invested in the right stocks, which where the first ever I believe.
And as you said, the banks and private firms, with actual private armies, imagine that nowadays!
Therefore an apology is hard to give, because who is to give it?
For as my family has not been directly involved in it as far as I know. Maybe they have worked in some warehouses getting the products of the ships. But even then, if so, in that time, what could they have done. And have they really profited from that, or did they just get paid to live, for the profits to dissappear to the ones previously discribed...
In a way still what I see today, big profits dissappearing to the big companies and the wealthy few, while more and more people are struggling to pay the rent...
Yeah I think it should be if governments benefits from Slavery then it should apologize. No need to demonize people who weren't involved from beginning to end, like everyday common people
Weren't those people that traded private citizens?
Also in feudal times, people were treated as slaves too.
I believe there was no thing as citizenship back then. And yes, in the times of manorialism the peasants were kind of slave, exept for the fact they couldn't be bought or sold.
The way you shine the light on all sides of the story is very impressive 👏
Thank you!
Echt goede video! Veel informatie!
Bedankt!
Slavery has existed (and in some parts of the world still does) since the dawn of time. All peoples of the world are guilty of it, so no use pointing fingers at anybody. Thank God it was abolished by the Western nations 150 years ago. Let's be thankful for that and just try to get along as equals. There is but one race: the human race.
Yes I fully agree! Human history is basicly a long list of injustice.
I agree with you though even if everyone makes the same horrible mistake that doesn't negate the possible good an apology could do in bringing people together.
Fair point. Thanks for sharing.
@@hungrymusicwolf I get your point, however in that case everyone has to apoligize and not just western nations.
Do the current day Egyptians need to apologise to the Jews? The Italians to .... basically all peoples of Europe, N-Africa and the Middle East for the sins of the Romans? The Chinese for all those poor bastards worked to death on the Wall? The Arabs to all Europeans for raiding their coasts and enslaving those people. The African tribes for raiding their neighbors and selling them to the Europeans. Etc. etc. Let the past rest and count your blessings. You live now.
super goed filmpje! heel goed uitgelegd en naar mijn mening moet er inderdaad zo naar de vraag gekeken worden en niet (te veel) op emotioneel- en/of politiek niveau. dankjewel voor je geweldige filmpjes in het algemeen!
Dank voor je reactie, Marnix.
Greetings from Croatia. These are some valid, thought-provoking and very interesting discussion points indeed. A well-delivered speech on an unpleasant topic. 👍
Thanks for your reply!
Heel goed dat je dit aangekaart hebt !
Zeker, graag gedaan.
Never apologize for historical events because it never ends at the symbolic gesture of apology. It will become a political movement where a professional victim class continue to chip away at Dutch culture and civic culture. The Chinese make no apology for their historic or current atrocities against their own citizens.
indeed
Agreed, although a "the chinese dont do it either" is not a very strong argument.
If it was just apology, sure but yeah.... It never is 😂
Yet we can be better than the current chinese government. And we have the power to do better.
Absolutely right.
In Germany this apologizing bullshit became some kind of religion.
Dit is super interessant en goed uitgelegd
Graag gedaan!
Thank you for the history lesson.
You're welcome, Emily! Thanks.
i am a colonial "product", dutch indies. and of mixed descent, so somewhere in time my great great great great grandfather did a native woman, probably involuntary.
but should i be expecting apologies from that past? from people that have no personal guilt in that history, to people that have not been personal victimised in relation to that history?
that is insane and not fair.
I had someone, a dutchy, saying to me that "netherlands should apologise for that". i asked if they would be obliged to put that in practise and start with showing apologies through doing free housekeeping chores once a week....
just to show me they really meant that apology, but got a negative response unfortunately :)
if we go that route, all white dutchies would be banging on Italy's door looking for apologies for that time the romans enslaved them.
i mean, how far back may we go ?
and what about the ashanti tribe, should they also be down on their knees apologising for their wealth created by slave trade?
it's not a black thing, it's not a white thing and it even is not a cultural thing.
it's just shitty human behaviour that is still displayed by all colours and all cultures!
Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this
Nice dissection of events. And the part about making an excuse is well explained. This goes to show it is a complicated matter.
Happy Keti Koti!
Thanks! :)
interesting insights
Thanks.
nice vid!
Thanks!
I think you made a very good point in that an apology from people that never had anything to do with slavery is awkward.
Indeed.
but they enjoy wealth from slavery
2 years later after hearing about the apology on the news i come across this video. Judging by the whole discussion around it which i followed very loosely, the questions in this vid weren't awnsered.
I wanted to type something profound on why i think it was a good or bad thing, but if i'm being honest i don't even really know what it is all about. I guess that in itself is not really a good sign in favour of the apology though.
Histoy Hustle weer een heel goed filmpje gemaakt. Dankjewel 👍👍😃
Zo hoe jij het onderwerp uitlecht zo heb ik het ook geleerd, heb er zelf ook veel over gelezen.
Zelfs over de Moren. Maar op 1 juli is toch een dag waar word still gestaan bij het slaven verleden ?
Ook het sinterklaas feest ik zag in het filmpje zwartepieten voorbij komen.
Het sinterklaas feest is al een eeuwenoud seizoenfeest dat voor het christendom al plaats vond bij verschillende germaanse stammen.
Vergelijkbare feesten zijn in België, Duitsland, Oostenrijk, Duitsland, Italië, Spanje. Ook in landen van oost europa en het noorden.
Bedankt voor je bericht. Op 1 juli wordt inderdaad stilgestaan bij het afschaffen van de slavernij en daarmee dat verleden herdacht. Sinterklaasfeest heeft in andere landen ook een variant ja. Zwarte Piet is vrij uniek voor Nederland. Wellicht dat andere landen het ook hebben (gekend).
Here In the UK, this has become an issue too. Especially with statues of slave traders being torn down. Bristol and Liverpool were built on it
But yes we don't hear much about Dutch involvement, Just British, American and Brazilian (capoeira) slavery
Thanks for your message. The Dutch part was about 5% of the total slave trade. In the UK it really looked things were outta control. What are your thoughts on this?
I am prepared to listen to people who apparently are still hurt by slavery. But I don't think I will ever understand it after so many generations. Simply put, I don't see the problem.
Again, thanks for your message.
Kudo's dat je dit onderwerp durft aan te snijden en netjes dat het je het zo genuanceerd brengt :) Is hard nodig in deze tijd van schreeuwen en niet luisteren
Bedankt!
This discussion included multi perspectives. I think the basic issue, as is well pointed out, is that people should listen to one another.
Thanks for your reply.
The indigenous people in Canada just got an apology about ten years ago from the government even though the Europeans arrived here about four hundred years ago.
I see.
I've always known my neighbors to the North are sensible, decent and good hearted. An apology costs nothing. If it helps the generational pain of some action which is causing people now to feel they are suffering, the people doing the apology have lost nothing by apologizing, and most likely have gained an opportunity for new acquaintances, or even friendships.
As an analogy, there are ramifications through generations due to people being killed in war. For instance, a young father is killed while fighting, and his child never gets to know him. When the child grows up, his parenting and some of his attitudes will have been changed by growing up without a father, which his child now feels and carries with her. It may have never even been openly expressed, but these things can live on through the generations.
Totally true, but you forget that the intentional clearing was mostly done in the late 18th and 19th century and continued into early 20th century, which is not that long ago. Especially land should be returned, there where possible
Good docu Stefan,
Personally I get very tired of this discussion and I think it is pretty dumb. Why should we feel guilty? An extreme low number of the Dutch was involved in colonialism and slavery. 150 years later we are all still blamed for this. It is not so that the Dutch labourers here were living in luxury 150 years ago. It was poverty only, bad hygiene, hunger and so on for the labourers here. When I have to appologize? For something that a very few Dutch did 150 years ago? Who is discriminated here?
While it is tiresome, it does spark a new interest in dutch history. Thats a positive i would say.
Thanks for commenting, Rene.
4:30 is not correct. 'Blank' derives of the French word 'blanc' which means white. In the Dutch language we adapted many French words because of the French occupation. Its the small groups of left activists that try to make everything sound racist.
I see.
@@user-ow2jn1dn6k
Not in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands they took many French words and integrated it in their language, like the word blanc (blank in modern spelling). Maybe the French took it somewhere else, but it still means 'white' and not 'pure'.
Well, the EU could at least stop excluding farming products from third world countries by stopping emposing import tariffs on them while subsidising EU products in the interior market, while subsidising exporting those same products to third world countries, flooding those third world markets so making it impossible for local farmers to compete with them.
We could stop supporting our fine big oil and tech companies and that buy local politicians to plunder the enormous natural recourses of third world countries to make horrendous profits when they sell us luxury products at ridiculously low prices.
Someone pays the price for all this these days too, and it’s not that much different from slavery.
Just like then, we still don’t want to know who is exploited for our luxury.
We could excuse for thát and show how much we really think that “Black Lives Matter”.......but I doubt this catches on with those riding their high moral hobby horse saying it’s the ones with bigger wallets than they themselves should change.
Not all of the EU countries participated in slave trade nor all of them had colonies. So why would all of the EU countries had to agree to do what you propose? Againts their own interests? If some EU members feel guilty of anything maybe they should create a fund or pay reparations to people or countries they took advantage of (and in some cases they still do). 'New' EU countries had nothing to do with this.
4/5 of modern EU countries didn’t exist 200+ years ago.
I was just saying that if “Black Lives Matter” to us there are more productive ways to show that than an official apology.
I see. Can't say much about current economics.
@@JakubW. At this moment countries like Indonesia and Malaysia has file a very loud protest for the EU's evil plan to destroy the palm oil industries in both countries. And sorry to say this but some of the silly rules/trade wars between EU and some of its trading partners from the "third world countries" and from "developing countries" on their behalf only reinforce the accusations that the some of the major EU members with colonialism history such as Netherlands, France, Spain, Portugal etc still retain their colonialist mindset when they have to make a deal with others from outside EU's sphere especially to the "developing countries" and "third world countries".
Good video!
In the whole discussion (not just here, but mainly in the news and politics), I'm confused by the fact that out government has already expressed regret ("spijt") and remorse ("berouw"). Isn't that about the same as an apology? A formal declaration that we regret the role our country has played in the past. And then of course move forward after acknowledging this dark history, and making sure we have learned from it, and dealing with current events, such as racism, poverty etc.
A formal apology is the highest form of regret a country can expres. Although I'm not sure I believe this also makes way for compensation claims.
I knew there was a reason I liked your stuff.
👍
Ask my great, great, great, great, granddaddy for a apologize for working in the peatlands to feed his starving childeren.
Many people in the Dutch Republic weren't well off either.
Cant do nothing about history or help the long dead people who suffered, Netherlands should work with Indonesia on developing it. Education system in Indonesia sure could use the help and Dutch have it good.
Fair point.
Wow, very heavy but a very balanced vlog. A hot topic. See how much dirt will be thrown... The way you presented it I can totally agree. Main conclusion for me is: the slavery must stay part of the history canon. It must be teached what damage has been done. But it should not be over kill. The Dutch history should not only go about slavery but also the positive influence of globalisation and the Dutch roll in it.
Thanks!
That article on apologies left me with more questions than answers.
Yes, philosophy can be confusing.
Its not just the Netherlands should apologize for slavery, anyone who takes away someones freedom and tries to control that person should
I see.
@@HistoryHustle While I agree with your statements Stefan about modern people or administrations having anything to do with slavery of countries that carried out the shameful practices in the past, I still believe people shouldn't forget this, and still you deserve credit for trying to remember such things.
Here comes the big truth.....the first dutch democratic parlement we know today abolished slavery in suriname(the end of all dutch slave practice), before this it was a monarchie with a parlement that answerd to the king. It was not the dutch state, parlement or government of today that has to apologize, it is the monarchy of that time that stil exist today that has to.
As a black man in the netherlands i thank the dutch people for aboloshing slavery. Its holidays like Sinterklaas that boils my blood in confusion and utter disbelief that we are just pretending.....
Thanks for sharing your insights on this, Benjamin!
One can't apologize for what one has not done. The slaves and their cruel masters have died. What we must do is invest in the other countries in our Kingdom and Suriname.
Fair point.
Great perspective as always. It's good to see a level head looking at this question objectively which is not something that appears to be happening a lot at this time.No apology necessary by anyone for past history. Thats why its history. Learn from the past to make a better future. Thanks again. Love your channel.
Many thanks for your comment and glad you liked the video.
Except the Dutch haven't learnt from the past. They are proud of it and would do it again in a heart beat if they could. And that is exactly why, yes, the Dutch should apologise because they have learnt NOTHING! They're just as racist and unempathetic as theuy were in the past
No nation should apologize for nothing. If that were the case everyone would have to
I see.
The problem is not slavery - it is that people (start to) forget/ignoring that there was slavery and that ppl made big bucks of it directly or indirectly. One has to question why a country like the Netherlands (and other countries) with zero resources has become that rich ? Also what those "resources" which have provided the resources have in common with the holocaust, the native american "removal act" etc etc. At least for the mentioned "minority" they have a voice now and the public is apologizing. It's a very disgusting excuse to wash the hands in innocence because the neighbor did it but hey you somehow profited after all because he spent money in your shop.
Thanks for sharing your thoughs on this.
My Galiec ancestors were likely slaves of the Roman Empire. The Italian government owes me no apology nor reparations. Pure logic...
I understand.
It is not easy to sort this one out or even blame individuals living today. But the one thing can be said is that it is no legitimate excuse to say that other cultures did that too or that other africans captured and sold many of the slaves. This does not remove or decrease the guilt a nation aquired in the past and only will damage international and intercultural relations.
My view on this is that if a nation is proud of some parts of its history and feels those are part of their identity then as a nation it is legitimate to apologize for the terrible parts of its own history as a nation. So the question remains to whom. I think a nation can apologize to everyone who feels hurt because of their family history and maybe even recent forms of racism. This does not need to be an apology to another nation, which in most cases would not make any sense to begin with.
Thanks for sharing your insights on this.
No, you can't judge people from another era from a comfortable 21 century mindset. Imagine living just without basic things we all take for granted like electricity, water, sewage system, dental care, pain medication, no easy travel etc.Old superstitions were very real to people. Most couldn't read or write. Every nation on earth has at sometime in history practiced slavery.
Not sure if every nation practiced slavery but many did.
August 2022 here: Still valid. Nothing to this day changed anything to anything you stated. Though it'll be harder to investigate since time seems to erose bit by bit.
I believe they are doing more research. We'll see.
It is as you already said your self. It is simply to early to make any form of apology as it would be meaningless unless we know who should apologize to who, and it will be a massive task to work that one out.
If the people that want apologies want it cause of acknowledgement than they are and asking for the wrong thing, and they themselves probably lack the knowledge and awareness themselves. It is very clear that in most education the subject of slavery and colonization is brought forth. What this people want is the full awareness of how terrible it was, but they do not seem concerned what so ever when the talks are about other forms of slave trade outside that of the transatlantic one between 1500s till the 1800s.
So the people that shout loud about it, but seem to truly not care outside that time frame and region are the once you should ignore at all times, cause this people do not want a open and honest debate, they just want to push their agenda and nothing more.
I for one would support the idea of apology but only if we can find direct benefactors of slavery, which does not include the entire country simply cause gain was made, just like now more than half the gains made disappears in the pockets of just a handful. The even harder part will be finding people that are now worse of in their lives as a direct result of their ancestors being slaves, cause as you showed, while the slaves had a it bad, their descendants in some cases seem to clearly be better of cause of where they live now while the ancestors of the once that sold them now live in really underdeveloped poor regions.
One could argue that it is that way cause of slavery but truth is that would be the result of colonialism, which is a whole other topic which is at least as complicated if not more so than the topic of slavery.
The truth is slavery and conquest go as far back as history as it seems. Most peoples ancestors at one point where victims and at a other point they where the perpetrators. We aren't our ancestors and vast majority of all humans did neither benefit nor suffer directly as a result of what their ancestors did or where inflicted upon. Human history is full of suffering and a small group benefiting from that suffering.
Is what the Europeans did during the transatlantic slave trade terrible when putt in today's light, absolutely. But today we all benefit from slave/forced labor as well as done by children, a lot of major companies are involved in it and it is all to make the products affordable for us the masses. Today's amount of slaves overshadows the combined 300 years of transatlantic slave trade, and conditions now are far worse. Back than a slave did still have high value, today's slaves are worth nothing and easily replaced. Are our descendants now going to condemn us all for this? Well i hope not, i hope they will look at today's situation as i try to look at the one of 100s of years ago. Try to understand the context it happened and how the world was, but also have areal look at how accepted it truly was and today is. Today most of us find the idea of slavery horrible but do nothing or arent even aware this is a huge thing. Back than people where even less in touch what was happening in the outside world. Most of the people barley know what was going on a few villages or towns over.
Thanks for sharing yout thoughts.
NEVER apologize!
*apologize ;)
Please explain. Why?
@@HistoryHustle Because history is full of conquests and warfare and apologizing for something that your countrymen did hundreds of years ago is stupid. I am from Georgia, and my country has suffered for centuries from Islamic hordes. Should today Turks, Arabs and Iranians apologize to me today? I bet they never will, and I think they never should. Millions of white Europeans were slaughtered and enslaved by Asians, but only we should apologize? You have nothing to be ashamed of, be proud of your ancestors and defend your country. No white guilt!
I see. Which Asians enslaved millions of Europeans? And when?
@@HistoryHustle Slave markets were full of white Europeans. For example, thousands of Christians were deported from my country and sold like cattle in Persia, Turkey, Arabia or other Islamic countries. I did write an answer here for you but somehow it got deleted. I do not know why or how.
Recognition means not only acknowledging that it happened, but also acknowledging dutch states part in it and acknowledging that it was a bad thing. I can acknowledge that I kicked a puppy, but still boast and be proud of that. Apologies should be in the name of Dutch State, that permitted, encouraged and proffited from denying humanity to other people, and they should be adressed to any and all people who experienced slavery, and to those that suffer from it's effects to this day. People do not exist in vacuum, you cannot argue that the day slavery ended everyone was equal, and that former slaves or their children got their fair chance in life, or that wealth accumulated by Dutch disappeared with end of slavery or death of slavers.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
A well done analysis! The problem is that mainly due to the influence of anti-racism activists from the US, this entire topic has politicised into a "white versus black" thing, while in reality it's a lot more complex. In the US I think one may conceivably say that there was such widespread racism that the state and white population as such can be pointed towards as having contributed to it, but in terms of the Dutch slave trade this is so much more complex. Most Dutchmen didn't have anything to do with slavery, plus I wonder what they even knew of it. Maybe their attitude towards it was comparable to the way we think about our corporations using cheap labour abroad today. Yes, there is plenty of exploitation happening abroad, yes it's our corporations and yes, we buy those cheap products that are created that way, but in the end we kind of ignore it or are only half aware of what happens. Should we then apologise for it? Are we complicit? In a way, yes, but also not really. Could it have been similar with slavery back then? Just the WIC making money and the average Dutchman only half knowing what is going on but still buying those cheap products? I wonder. And what was even the state involvement? Did they encourage the WIC, do nothing, actively aid them? At the very least they knew about it and allowed it to continue, making them complicit, but how much did the state do? Also an interesting question.
And what of the black slave traders? Why do they not need to apologise and why are their descendants even asking for compensation/apologies themselves? Should we track everyone's ancestry and see who is "guilty"? How does it even work in the first place to be held accountable for something your distant ancestors may or may not (but probably didn't, statistically speaking) do?
You are right, you can't compare the Dutch history with that of the USA; completely different. But all this craziness from the USA makes its way to the Netherlands too and some people just buy into it. They seem to be very ignorant of history. Without knowing the past, how can you have a meaningful conversation about the present on this matter?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
NO ONE should ever apoligize for something they didnt do, period.
A clear answer.
Hahaha, je zei in de intro wat ik dacht toen ik de titel las...
Tof en stoer dat je toch even de geschiedenis achter alles uitlegt!
Klasse Stefan!
Dank!
typ fout herstelt... nu is het hartje weg :(
No excuses, slavery has been and still is a thing from all times. The Dutch people have been enslaved as well by vikings, romans, huns etc.etc. Is the Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Italian, Mongolian etc.etc government going to excuse to the Dutch as well?
The Dutch were indeed not the only ones.
Dutch has nothing to apologize for not now nor for there past.
Please explain.
@@HistoryHustle past or present history of the nation
I see.
Great video I did not know that the Netherlands traded slaves
Glad you liked the video, thanks!
Technically the Netherlands didn't trade slaves, a couple of Dutch companies did, but not the country itself.
No aplogies or might as well go back all the way to prehistoric times. We should acknowledge that is existed and that from our perspective it was a heinous practice.
In that sense there might be lots of apology possibilities.
Er is onvrede bij een groot deel van de bevolking omdat sommige thema's nog steeds actueel zijn.
Kijk bijvoorbeeld naar inkomsten en belastingen.
Over brutoloon betalen we loonheffing. Over nettoloon betalen we nog een keer belasting: btw, bpm en accijnzen.
Bouw je over je nettoloon teveel vermogen op gaat daar nog een keer belastingen (inkomstenbelasting) vanaf. Dus we betalen belasting over belasting.
En de elite (o.a. koningshuis en grote multinationals)? Ja, die lachen ons doodleuk uit want zij betalen niet of nauwelijks (niet in overeenstemming) belastingen.
Wat maakt dat ons? Loonslaven!
Het is een kwestie van tijd voordat de bom in Europa / het Westen zal inslaan.
"The surest way to remain poor, is to be an honest man!'
Denk niet dat we de slavernij-omstandigheden van destijds kunnen vergelijken met belastingen nu die hoewel hoog zijn ons alsnog een redelijke levensstandaard garanderen waar de mensen van destijds enkel van konden dromen.
@@HistoryHustle Levensstandaard voor een deel van de bevolking.
Prima gedaan. Maar blank betekend gewoon zonder kleur. En ik bepaal zelf wat mijn kleur is :) Excuses vind ik ook onzin. Geschiedenis is precies dat. Ik hoef ook geen excuses van de Romijnen, Spanjaarden of Duitsers.
Duidelijk.
A wide and complex subject that demands nuance, however the flaw in the "Well, they sold the slaves to us" argument is, w/o a 'buyer' they would not have enslaved and sold people. However, w/o one specific seller slave owning and trading nations would have found other means of acquiring slaves. Not a perfect analogy, but if a you refuse to buy drugs from a drug dealer, sooner or later someone else will.
I am not sure of the metrics to determine apologies for historic crimes. A lot depends on things that difficult to define. Reparations is a national issue here , but not a serious one. We recently had a President who only reluctantly denounced the extreme right . I think dinner party rules should apply . Apologies take little effort in the case of precieved or real slights
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Should the Italians apologize for enslaving people during Roman times? Should the Irish apologize for enslaving the people of western Britain during the middle ages?? Should the Algerians apologize for the slave raids on Europe and sub Saharan Africa?? You see where this is going? All human civilization has engaged in slavery
It was indeed widespread.
I’m from Ireland, I struggled to learn about my language and culture because of English colonialism. I don’t hold resentments but it’s frustrating how all white people are blamed for colonialism even though we were a subject and white
Ireland has also an interesting history.
@@HistoryHustle we didn’t have the same hardship as black people, but why should we feel guilty for things we didn’t do. Same with french, English and white American ppl today. It wasn’t us who did anything
Agree.
It is simple i see it the way a murder is punishable. If a (wo)man commits a murder the child should not have to bear the punishment of its parents. The kid can how ever still say "I am sorry they did this." but beyond that should not be asked to do anything. So:
A verbal apology; sure, our ancestors (A tiny select group where slave traders)
A financial apology; Never (We did not do this behavior it was our ancestors. Plus we already send tons of money to developing countries to support them.)
Thanks for your comment.
A sound and realistic video. I totally agree with the content. Comments from many on the left, especially some of black "descendants" are blatantly racist. We tend to overlook the fact that slavery was universal, no race excepted. No continent excepted. No age excepted. I am willing to guess thar most of the people have ancestors that were slaveowners AND slaves if one goes ba k far enough. So what are we talking about ? Let us correct present wrongs and recent ones. Let us be frank about wrongs in the past and accept there were flaws in all of history, and move on.
Thanks for your reply Henk.
yes, you should apologize for slavery
BUT
things should always be seen in the appropriate timeframe and context.
Thanks for sharing your insights!
Goede bijdrage! Je hebt dit zeker evenwichtig gepresenteerd! Hooguit de notie dat je dit onmogelijk volledig kan scheiden van politiek, maar ik snap dat je focused op een integere benadering. Het is complex, en zoals je ook wel doet, te onderscheiden (niet scheiden) in meerdere elementen.
1. Een eerlijke kijk op de historie. De beestjes bij hun naam noemen, de donkere pagina's van het verleden. Zowel als land áls deel van de westerse beschaving indien nodig. Geschiedkundige integriteit werkt overigens twee kanten op. Een eerlijke kijk op Sinterklaas bijvoorbeeld. Was hij een slavenmeester of juist iemand die slaven bevrijdde uit miserabele omstandigheden, dat vergt historisch een onbevooroordelde blik. De traditie aanpassen is goed, hoe we sinterklaas vieren. Maar wel gebaseerd op feiten ipv sentimenten vóór of tégen.
2. Ik denk dat punt 1 wezenlijk is om te voorkomen dat we onnodig met schuldvragen en excuses gaan strooien. Ja als we fouten maakten in Nederlands-Indië, Screbrenica en recente misstanden, dan is excuses én compensatie bespreekbaar. Misschien tot vier generaties terug, inclusief mezelf dus, zeg maar trans-generationeel zover dat redelijk is. Maar ook mijn overgrootouders zijn zover ik weet geboren ná de slavernij.
3. Pijnpunten zijn ook wezenlijk verweven met huidige misstanden. Racisme en discriminatie zijn een wezenlijk probleem, plus moderne uitbuiting van vrouwen en slechte arbeidsomstandigheden. Soms noemen ze dat 'flexwerken', maar dat ontaard soms ook in een onrechtvaardige werkcultuur, zonder alles over één kam te scheren.
Dat is extra wrang, als je etnische achtergrond een historie kent van dit soort misstanden. Onze politie schiet meestal niet zomaar mensen neer. Maar we schieten soms wel mensen af bij sollicitaties op basis van hun huidskleur of exotische namen in brieven. In Nederland is discriminatie juridisch verboden, maar in praktijk nog een serieus probleem.
4. Naast slavernij verdient kolonialisme een aparte alinea (heb ik later vandaag toegevoegd). Ook zonder expliciete slavenhandel hebben met name westerse landen de klok van ontwikkeling naar stabiele landen en regio's - met name in Afrika - eeuwen gefrusteerd. Je kan niet verwachten dat dat binnen enkele generaties na de dekolonisatie meteen gefixed is en de schuld enkel afschuiven op corrupte regeringen - die vaak nog te lang door amerikanen of russen in het zadel werden gehouden. De ontwikkeling van de westerse democratiën was ook niet binnen 100 jaar gerealiseerd.
Ik denk soms dat we in de hitte van een geschil vergeten dat de waarheid ergens in het midden ligt en vaak het eerste slachtoffer is van een politiek-correcte rechtse of linkse meute. De leiders en intellectuelen aan beide zijden hebben te verantwoordelijkheid zelfbeheersing te tonen en hun achterban daarin te laten volgen.
Bedankt voor je uitgebreide reactie. Ik heb het met veel interesse gelezen.
Absolutely not. I say this as someone whose ancestors were slaves.
Thanks for sharing.
@@HistoryHustle thank you for reading.
Dutch antillian here, proud of the Dutch History and unfortunately like all nations we have some dark things it. We should not appologise for slavery, everyone did it back then why should we apologize for something litterly everyone did back then and in which we today have no influence of today
Hey welcome to the channel! Good to hear someone from the Antillen. Thanks for your post and I hope you guys take care over there! 👍
We love your channel and you as a good unbiased true historian. Let's all make him 10 million subscribers immediately. This is also like as always before a wonderful video by you.
Thanks, as always!
@@HistoryHustle you deserve it fully sir due to your qualities
Yes I agree man he should be at least 10 million
I think this is the best take i have heard about this topic. I 100% agree.
Thanks for your response.
any country can apologize for its slavery but those they’re apologizing to (even though it never even happened to them, nor are the countries involved in slavery now) will always feel it’s not enough, no matter what and milk it as hard as they can
You think so?
I don't know if "blank" referred to us being "clean" back in the day of slavery, but in its even earlier context, it had a wider definition of being light-coloured, white or shiny. It was apparently also used for skin colour (synonymous to "wit"). A word like that has changed in definition and connotation, but it was casually used during centuries before slavery and after slavery, and nobody even considered superiority anymore, before someone delved into some old books. Why pinpoint a specific time in history when it was bad (in a connotation of superiority most people have never even considered), when you may as well pinpoint an earlier time in history when it was considered as casual as it was until ~2016. I guess it's different in reference to South Africa (Apartheid) and its texts of segregation (slegs blankes), but we aren't in South Africa, and all those signs contained English as well (only whites) with a word we do not change.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
If one totally picks at random any location on the planet along with randomly picking a year - no matter the time or place chosen you WILL FIND that those people practiced slavery.
It’s completely ridiculous for anyone to apologize for historical acts of slavery and you can’t take anyone seriously who would demand such a thing. In fact such an irrational request automatically discredits any ideas, requests, or statements made by that person in the future.
I see, thanks for sharing.
Antarctica - any year
Well i have to say its nice to hear a voice of reason in time of hysterical agendas based on personal emotions. Sadly to this day its way easier to claim moral high ground rather than engage in rational and thorough conversation about such issues as painful and uncomfortable this would be. And its so easy to say something is black or white , right or wrong instead of proper investigation where there are only different shades of grey .
Thanks for your reply.
No the Dutch should not apologize and neither should anyone else today there was already apology way back in 1927 case closed.
1927? Please do explain.
Lets not forget the slave trade of north africa of europeans and they still trade slaves...
True.
I was reading in the comments sections about the role of the UK in the abolition of slavery. The Royal Navy was indeed used force to stop the transport of slaves from the West African coast to the Americas after the abolition of slave trade in the British Empire in 1807 and slavery in 1837. Despite this victory for the abolitionists, the UK continued to import sugar from slave owning Empires e.g. Brazil and France. It was cheaper. Also the British solved the problem of cheap bonded labour on the sugar plantations in West Indies and South Africa by organising the transport of "Indentured" labour (debt bondage) from British India. This was only stopped in the 1920s. To this day the UK produces sugar from sugar beet (UK and EU) but also imports sugar from former colonies and Brazil as the later is cheaper. I would argue that the workers on these sugar plantations in Brazil earning $1-2 per day are still in slavery.
Thanks for sharing this.
Since the Dutch were the original white settlers of South Africa what was their history of treating the native black people of South Africa long before the Boer War since their original settlement began there in the 1600's. I have heard stories of slavery, hatreds and murders of blacks by those original Dutch settlers. Also murders in retaliation of the White settlers by the blacks. White Afrikaners are still being by blacks in South Africa today.
no. The slave trade has'nt existed for nearly 200 years. Maybe Mongolia should apologize for their rapacity in the 12th and 13th centuries or.......
I understand.
Apologizing means they are gonna ask for money eventually
Could be.
as they should
@@mkitrainz nope
Why should we apologize when were the first to ban slavery?
I'm afraid we Dutch were one of the last.
NO .. NEVER!
Why do you think this?
Can you explain please?
I think the people who should apologises should be the people who have profited from slavery e.g. The royal family (thats where most of their wealth comes from) because most likely regular people had nothing to do with it and as a black person the whole thing about the word slave not being used is dumb. But we still need to remember that Holland has benefited from the enslavement of my ancestors.
Also your comment on Ghana kind of upset me as a lot of those people suffered from the amount of slaves taken from the country (not just from the dutch slave trade) and did not benefit from slavery. On top of that hardly any sold slaves and the predicament some of those people had was sell or be sold .its a touchy topic. Those people are in poverty because of colonisation and slavery. Even before slavery started Europe had destroyed the Ghanaian (and Africa) economy.
But i agree with some points you made
It's almost like some people just want a historical bludgeon to excuse poor behavior and the consequences that come from said choices... I'm happy to see someone not just bend over.
ok
All people off the world should try to forgive one-another and look to get a better future to all of mankind. Sometimes an apology is a part of an easy forgiveness but not after 150 years, that will not be understood by the other. It would be great if out political and Church-leaders would give the example
Fair point.
So caught up about apologizing. It’s only a bunch of words. Now compensation that’s worth talking about. That shows much more genuine regret. 14:13
Thanks for the interesting video, yes teach want happen.
But no one alive today can be held to account for what happened generations ago the list goes on should the English apologise for the Boer war, war crimes or so on
Thanks for your comment.
@@HistoryHustle thanks for the video very interesting channel
Interestingly I have heard my Afrikaans speaking friends point out to my English speaking friends that their forefathers ground up glass and added it to the food fed to the women and children in the concentration camps during that war. Seems like a hundred odd years is both long ago but not long ago enough
What have the Moroccans have to do with it, maybe you should read about the Arab slave trade and the Barbary pirates. ;)
Yes, but that was not connected to the transatlantic slave trade.
Great video, well presented arguments from both sides without sugarcoating. I like what you say towards the end of video about creating dialogue and finding out where it hurts for some people. I do not think any kind of apology would fix the underlaying issues.
It is all about money. When we apologize, the next thing they will demand is financial compensation.
Thanks for your message Marcel and indeed, underlaying issues won't be fixed with any kind of apology.
@Hallo Daar: money might play a role for some, but not for all I think.
Ja ik vindt van wel al is het maar voor alle mensen die zijn om gekomen en de nabestaanden
Dank voor je bericht.
Both individuals and societies should apologize for wrongs they committed, but not for the wrongs of their ancestors as they bear no responsibility for those deeds.
However, both individuals and societies should firmly and unequivocally condemn the wrongs of the past and ensure they are not repeated.
Agree.
Spot on!
Thanks.
doing a History channel without getting into Politics ... sounds like an impossible task ...
I was doing fine for a while...
Completely ridiculous, obviously nobody should apologize and be held accountable for acts that happened to our ancestors. For example, if my great-grandfather kills someone, will I have to apologize to the family and be held responsible for the act? What we have to do is, based on our history, learn from our mistakes and evolve as human beings.
That image of the slave trade is so deceptive. The US only bought 330000 of the 12 million slaves estimated to have been taken. It should be pointing to Latin America. As for whether you should apologize, I think it depends on whether you freed them of your own recourse and change of heart. If you did, I'm sure your ancestors already did apologize to the appropriate persons. Not their descendants who are probably living better now than the tribal chief that sold their ancestors was. Now if a civil war happened over it, then the side or party that fought for it should apologize especially if the party is still around like the Democratic party of the United States. If feels like they would still have concentration camps and segregation. Except instead of blacks, it would be conservatives. They still have that master mentally. It's been stated that most liberals suffer from psychosis and liberals in the US are usually Democrats.
Thank you for sharing your insights on this.
Thanks for making this video. The content really hits home and should be viewed by people on both sides of the argument! I think apologising and then making financial steps to make the wrong right is not the way. Slavery is wrong and its good we ended that 150 years ago. But people who didnt have slaves compensating people who were not slaves doesnt make slavery right!
You're welcome, thanks for your message.
I just found this article. The comment that said giving money by someone who has never had slaves to people who have never been slaves does not make slavery right, could also have said it doesn't make sense. Also, should this money come from someone who's ancestor died in the American Civil War fighting to abolish slavery? And, should this money be given to an afro-amercan who's ancestor came to America after slavery was abolished?