I appreciate that you made this video, now that reflecting on the Dutch colonial past has been important than ever before. I only have been hearing this discussion on the Dutch side, so putting this issue on UA-cam is really getting this international. I just discovered that you made videos on location in Indonesia, which is great. I have also have made videos on location on Indonesia, but they focus more on urban history and architecture. They're not finished yet, but I'll let you know when they are. (p.s. is dat een oude wereldkaart van de jaren 50 toen West Papoea nog Nederlands Nieuw-Guinea was?)
Thanks for your response. The map is actually a fairly modern one (couldn't find a date of fabrication but considering the modern material), but perhaps based on the 1950s.
@@HistoryHustle introduce me, I'm an Indonesian. my grandfather was a freedom fighter against the dutch army in sumatera. I also studied Indonesian history and im a law student. morally, who started hatred and bloodshed for hundreds of years in the archipelago (now Indonesia) is the Netherlands. Dutch empire came with the intention of trade but turned into colonialism. about Dutch citizens living in Indonesia and possibly being killed by Indonesian nationalist fighters in the 1900s. Try to imagine.. how nationalist fighters and their families might have suffered for hundreds of years and then faced with the fact that they could repay them? surely they will kill because they may also be retarded in terms of education and morals. I understand you focus on the mistakes of the Dutch empire in the 1900s but why don't you as a historian try to understand the history of the Dutch kingdom's ill-treatment from the 1600s to the early 1900s? that time frame is the reason why nationalist fighters might commit murder or crime on Dutch citizens in Indonesia. revenge and hatred caused by the kingdom of the Netherlands which also triggers the crime. so I ... as an Indonesian citizen ask / want the Dutch kingdom to apologize formally to Indonesia. We do not ask for material (money) for the apology but only ask for sincere words that the Dutch kingdom regrets their actions in the past .. And last days, dutch king apologize to indonesia. Thats good for both of country.
@@whenyournameisduoduos1282 say that also to the Germans who apologize for the cruelty of world war II, made by Hitler (was a leader). So, it's about morality. Your logic can be accepted if the action was carried out by a person who reflects himself. but if a crime is committed by a government that reflects the state / kingdom.. so whoever the leader is morally obliged to apologize for the crimes committed by the previous government.
@@whenyournameisduoduos1282 if Germany has a Nazi party. then the Netherlands has a trading organization, the VOC (though not as cruel as Nazis but still makes people suffer and kill). many entered the VOC voluntarily.
As an Indonesian, I think apologizing is a bit dramatic or over the top, but both sides need to recognize the good and really bad sides of their history. Blaming the current countries for their old past crimes is ignorant. I think both the Netherlands and Indonesia should maintain a good relationship and support each other.
@@erikthehalfabee6234 Meh, not really a big deal. I honestly never hear anything about it outside of history class. In my perspective, I think most people here don't really pay much attention to the Netherlands.
I dont think indonesian need/want an apology anymore since indonesian already at "forgive not forget" stance. What we want is acknowledgement in dutch history that colonialization was horrible. Because i find it weird that there are dutch people who understand the cruelty of nazi occupation still think it's okay to reoccupy indonesia after 1945 and dont believe dutch commited warcrime during war of independence.. at least germans are self conscious about their nazi's past. Why cant dutch?
I believe many Dutch are aware of the horrors of colonization and independence war. Some might simply not know it because when they went to school it wasn't elaborated on in class or they simply forgot.
@@HistoryHustle personally im dutch myself and like I found out last year what we did in Indonesia (after ww2) and im 16 so im in still in high school and I think in school they don't pay enough attention to what we did in Indonesia, the only major thing we learn is that we colonised it because of the spices. Oh and btw your Channel is great I watch it very often so like yeah what I tried to say is that school doesnt really teach us enough about Indonesian dutch history
Both sides had committed incredible atrocities, I think it’s more logical for both sides to make a forgivement. So that public views are neutral,and we don’t look back
@@felocitybudmanlim2816 ya i agree that both side comited war crime, but i think its important to know who the one that started violence and war crime , off course war crime cannot be right, its always wrong,but if you got punched by someone you Will punch them back right?thats what we believe, and we didnt start it and we didnt want that happened but thats already happened. Now we are in peace and we must look forward 🙏✌️
As an Indonesian, I agree that a vast majority of us would prefer to look at the future rather than the past. I am 60 years old and I grew up with parents who were educated by the Dutch HBS school. They spoke fluent Dutch at home. Despite that, my father had fought against the Dutch and the Japanese. He lost his brother who was 17 years old fighting against the Dutch in Central Java. My mother worked as a young nurse and was the one who treated thewounded and injured Pemudas. (Freedom Fighters). Our families do not have any resentment against the Dutch or Japanese. We do not seek for apologies from our former colonizers. Nevertheless, we did get one from the King just recently. In my humble opinion that only cements our relationship with the Netherlands. They are no human beings on this planet who have no sin. War is ugly. No doubt about it. However at the end it did bring some healing. When my father visited Holland; he met an ex KNIL soldier at Pasar Tong Tong in the Hague in the 90s. It turned out they were both in the same battle and fought against each other. I wished I had recorded their hours of conversation. It was fascinating. In the end it brought healing for both of them. It brought light to unresolved issues. My dad would be 96 years old if he was alive. I was fortunate to have been assigned to Rotterdam for 3 years as GM for an international company in 2000. I still love the Dutch People till today. Thanks for the history lesson and videos!
Dear Daniel, many thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this. This is surely inspiring for when I'm teaching about this topic. Best wishes!
My grandfather died to defend Indonesian independence. The Dutch soldiers tortured him to death in the prison. The apology may not bring him back. However, my family have forgiven the Dutch since along time ago. We cannot change the past, but we can make a future: a great one.
My family including my aunt and her toddlers were slaughtered by your Nationalist Pemudas= coward baby murderers NOT freedom fighters at all!! They targeted defenseless women and children based on their skin colour. Raped and slaughtered them. No apology has ever been made by any of your Indonesian leaders. Not even a sign of remorse.. instead they continue to glorify those warcriminals and baby murderers like Sutomo! Justifying Genocide through Narionalistic mass propaganda. Indonesia is a criminal country.
Dutchmen here: OOF, sensitive subject, this is going to get some people mad! I like how you touched this subject, add more nuance and didn't come in with a answer made beforehand (like that exhibition and many people in general) Would love to see even more about these things!
My Great Grand Father is Dutchman. He is kind of good Dutchman, and he loves his family a lot. He disagree with colonization that Dutch did to Indonesia. He said to his wife "I'm sorry for all bad things that Dutchmen did to Indonesian" for all his life. I love him so much even though i never saw his face.
As someone from the Netherlands with "pribumi" parents from Indonesia with a big interest in Dutch colonial history and the history telling through my family, I feel the need to address this topic. I'll give more nuances by having understood the Indonesian and Dutch narratives of colonial history as some answers give irrelevant comparisons or play it down by using the fallacy of 'other countries also did it'. My impression with Indonesians nowadays is that they could care less about the colonial past, let alone an apology. The miseries of the Orde Baru are more relevant sorrows to most Indonesians. Likewise, the average Dutch person isn't to blame to what happened in the past, as much as a child is to blame for the past actions of their parents. However, it's a very recent happening with people still alive remembering the period. It's not ages ago. If you consider how the Dutch government has been handeling decolonization and the post colonial relationship with Indonesia, it is very uneasy and a bit of sweeping the issues under the carpets. From calling the war 'police actions', hiding atrocities, the excessennota, the lengthy lawsuits against Dutch war crimes and even the Indonesian state having to pay the Netherlands a debt until 2003. Ever since the independence the Dutch state has been avoiding to take responsibility for that period with the verjaringswet by expiring the accusations of massacres. An apology could close this chapter of history, that doesn't seem to be properly closed. In the end, an apology is only symbolic and will not change the past, but it however changes how we see/treat the past. The best way to the treat the past is through acknowledgement, like exhibitions that showcases that unfortunate side of colonialism and through education. This is not to burden people with guilt, but give a broader perspective on history. The last thing that needs to done are financial compensations. Who knows where the money ends up?
We don't use the word pribumi anymore in Indonesia, because it signifies that certain people are the real native in the archipelago when in truth everyone came to the archipelago, no one is the real native. It's to erase away the toxicity of dutch legacy that just breeds racism here. It's been like that since the early 2010's. This whole pribumi word breeds only ethnic conflict, inflamed even more by the new order, fortunately we are moving away from it now, so just be mindful about it if you are ever in Indonesia.
@@askkedladd makasih. As a second generation Indonesian I'm a bit detached of what's happening in Indonesia so I didn't know about it. I only used pribumi to make a difference between the Indo-Dutch, who migrated to the Netherlands between 1945 and 1964, a group that contains both white Dutch but Indonesian born people and mixed Indonesian-European people who have Dutch surnames. Fun fact: they have been the largest migrant group in the Netherlands, although Dutch people would have never thought that. Most of the Indo-Dutch my age are 3rd to 5th generation Indo-Dutch, so they're even more detached from Indonesian and mostly less Indonesian looking. An interesting thing is: the Indo-Dutch were native to Indonesia as they were born there, despite their more western upbringing. Many of the first generation who migrated to the Netherlands, never felt that the colonial motherland was their homeland, because some Indo-Dutch families have been living in Indonesia for many generations without coming to the Netherlands. Some of them will say that they felt they were forced to leave their homeland of Indonesia. My Indo-Dutch great grandparents also saw Indonesia as their homeland and, as one of the few Indo-Dutch who stayed, opted for Indonesian citizenship. Despite culturally being more European than Indonesian, it doesn't mean that they belonged to Europe. History is never black and white. A similar issue like the pribumi/non-pribumi divide in the Netherlands is the autochtoon (native) and allochtoon (ethnic minority) divide. In 1971, the word allochtoon was insisted as a neutral term for migrants or descendants of migrants and was futher divided into western and non-western migrants. Another fun fact: people born in Japan and Indonesia were registered as western migrants, because 1) Japan was modernized and 2) Indo-Dutch people. However, although the word allochtoon was officially neutral, it was exclusively used by people and the media for non-western minorities, usually when something negative happened. Because of this and the fact that second/third generation migrants were regarded as not native, despite living all their lives in the Netherlands, the words autochtoon and allochtoon had to be replaced by person with/without a Dutch background. Now some questions for you: is there a replacement for the word pribumi? And how sensitive is it to use the words Cina/Chinese instead of Tionghoa?
@@kykale There is no replacement word for pribumi, just call someone their ethnicity if you want to mention it. People in official capacity will always use tionghoa, but in daily life many still use cina whatever their ethnicity, because they're used to it. It's no big deal usually because most people don't mean harm when they used the word, so it really depends on the context as to whether it's fine or not to use the word cina in daily life.
Most of indonesia is thinking "sing wis yo wis" its useless to thinking about the past, but learn from it is a must. Be a better person who learn from the past mistake, and start thinking about the future. And for me I am Indonesian
No need to apologize .... we are merciful forgiving people. Soekarno ever said "respect your enemies, because they're aware of your weaknesses". But also he ever said "never leave history!"
I'm Indonesian. Thank you for presenting this sensitive subject carefully, still be ready if there will be ignorant people throwing hate. What the Dutch has done in the colonial era was horrible, that is a fact, colonialism is never a good thing. We're left with what we call a colonial era's mindset where white people are often seen as cruel, evil, uncultured, but also better and somewhat have a higher social status (it may be less relevant to the current generation). BUT, what most or some Indonesian miss out are the cruelty done by the local leaders like the governors and bupatis (a position which at the time given to kings or someone in such positions by the dutch especially in Java). You can read or watch "Max Havelaar" to get a glimpse. You are right that we don't like to look back, yet we like to just blame whoever we're told are in the wrongs so we can just move on and look forward to build this country, IMO. Should the dutch apologize? Yes but also no. Yes, the leaders have to acknowledge the horrible events that happened. I don't understand about if there are costs that they have to pay for what they've done, especially in the 1947 when the aggression happened. No if you're saying as if the dutch people are involved because in my opinion the people will follow the leaders and they're often brainwashed or have no control to what happened, like you can't blame the whole germans for what Hitler did.
My thing is there are people who are alive today that remember those atrocities because they lived through them. Sure they may be old now but they deserve closure cause they had to witness their loved ones die. Many people remember colonization, I met a Cameroonian man who lived during French colonization and a Gambian man who remembers British colonization. And the older generation in my family and community who are Vietnamese remembers French colonization like it was yesterday. I'm saying do it at least for the older generation.
Please do not try to argue that your own rulers were cruel against your own populace, who do you think put them to these cruelties? Who do you think forced/coerced them into making these people under them work harder? It was the Dutch who put out harsher and harsher demands of yields etc. Using the local leaders as ''executers of the law'' ensured that the indonesians wouldnt see the Dutch as the boogeyman, but just the local rulers. Of course the local indonesian rulers were to blame to a certain extent, but do not try to explain away their actions as being purely out of their own interest.
@@timonrolleman54 I disagree with that, in fact those local nobles have practiced these kind of horrendous serfdom since centuries ago, also happily to do the bidding of Dutch colonial official since it also enrich themselves a lot, it's not just limited in Asia and Africa, European peasents also felt the same thing, being heavily taxed from hair to toe being extracted out our wealth, forced to works in unsanitary condition in long periods, ang divides half or more of the harvest to the local rulers, this is not purely because of Dutch nation is only responsible for the colonization and exploitation in Indonesia, rather more correctly the rich and powerful in fact are the perpetrator, no matter if it's the native or the Dutch, they all are people with sins eventually, but stronger and wealthier than the common folks. There are of course good nobles that cared for his/her own subjects, however let me take an example, Sultan Iskandar Muda with his draconian laws, and so on. At the end we are brutally did horrendous atrocities, against one and another like animals for eternity, at least today we hope that we wouldn't commit such crime against humanity any longer in future, even though it still happening in present day.
i'm an indonesian, and i love your videos because this video is more detail and honest than my history class in indonesia, thank you for presenting this sensitive subject carefully.
@geheimschriver that is so unnecessary, for me as indonesian, it feels like a psycho ex girlfriend texting me at 4 am, apologizing for what she did to me 12 years ago, it is unnecessary and it just brings back old wound...
And the actual veterans that fought there would like to kindly disagree: ua-cam.com/video/bUOeRlO2Cso/v-deo.html&ab_channel=IndischeKwestie%2FIndischPlatform2.0 The king might be a king, but he cannot apologize for things he did not commit or witness. That apology is worthless, also for the Indonesian people, in more senses than the word can encapsulate.
I'm an Indonesian. When I was a young boy I was taught that western countries were evil colonializer and Indonesia was a victim, and since 1945 Indonesia was free. Our heroes such as Soekarno, Hatta were honored with holy halolight. Then as I grew up I later learnt that it was not that simple. Many complicated things happened. There were tears from both sides of war. Our Indonesian heroes had so many weakness and did shameful act as well. That's real history, and that's it. I hope Indonesians and Dutch will be running together to a better future.
As a Dutchman myself, here is how i feel like about it. Yes it was horrible what we did to Indonesia, yes we were cruel. But should we apologize? the thing is that it won't really matter, i mean we Dutch truly feel bad about it but as good as everyone who were during that time are dead, so it would be pointless if a Dutchman like me in my twenty's to apologize for something all of us play no part of it. To me it would feel like demanding a German these days to apologize for ww2, i can demand all i want but i wasn't there in ww2 and neither did the German of my age so the apology would be kind of useless. I just feel like we shouldn't keep looking in the past, you have to move on eventually. We Dutch will never forget though what we have done long time ago. History should never be forgotten, but forgive each other. If someone can't forgive and keep looking in the past, he / she will never move on. A big hug from a Dutchman to you Indonesians, you people are great
Don't worry all the victim of the war crimes don't have any children and even if they did they won't remember the past atrocities that happens to their grandparents. Just kidding you guys are worst than nazis
Well, your royal family still rides around in a carriage with a picture of slaves from your colonies bowing down to your queen IN 2020 anyway. It's like, not only you don't feel sorry about it, but you're actually quite proud of it. So if you guys do apologize, I'm not sure we will buy it.
I wish there was a diplomatic difference between an apology and an acknowledgement. The Dutch government today did not colonize Indonesia and the Dutch people today did not exploit them. People shouldn’t have to apologize for things that their ancestors did. Yes the people who did colonize and exploit should be punished and yes they should apologize and be punished and the current government should acknowledge them. They should acknowledge what their ancestors and predecessors have done but they should not have to apologize, not not empathize because they should empathize and understand the past but what is done cannot be undone. And the modern people should not be held for things they could not have possibly changed as many of them did not exist.
Spain refuses to apologize to Mexico over colonial issues. Dutch refrained in the beginning but then recently apologized to Indonesia. That's good. God bless Netherland, I hold no grudge over past suffering inflicted upon colonial rules. I Indonesian love Vincent van Gogh and Rembrandt. I admire VOC, the greatest enterprise EVER. I love Netherland. Looking forward to seeing close cooperation between Netherland and Indonesia, the likely future superpower are we LOL.
@@HistoryHustle I might have to add that this doesn't reflect 100% of opinion of Indonesian, however I can say that young generation tend to be more open and positive about relation with the Netherlands but also I witnessed some old conservative people are still holding their grudge against the Dutch and finding faults and averse to the Dutch. However they are few and far between. Some conservative radios are still reliving and propagating old anti-Dutch sentiments.
i’m Indonesian. i say we must apologize for all bad things we did in life and do whatever in our possession to ensure those things we did will never happen again. this is applied to all. thanks for sharing this. i read and dig lots of history books about indonesia. the more i dig, the more it shake my understanding about the country history.
My great grandfather worked in the financial department for the rubber plantations. My grandfather grew up in Indonesia. He loved Indonesia and always gave us Dutch and Indonesian tradition here in Australia.
In South Africa unfortunately we have nothing better to do than be stuck in the past and refuse to move forward. There is still a rejection of the 'Rainbow Nation' idea amongst many South Africans, with a lot of hatred coming from chauvinist Zulu and Xhosa leaders. Some have even begun indiscriminately labelling white people '1652s', after the year the Dutch first arrived in the country. So you could say we are living with 350 year old mindsets.
@@HistoryHustle technically South Africa was never a Dutch colony, it was settled by many Dutch and some Germans. The different provinces were more like independent countries
@@jantschierschky3461 The cape definitely was a colony and a harbour to resupply the ships which were on their way towards Indonesia. Was it owned by the dutch state? No, it was owned by a corporation: VOC (united east india company). The later expansions of the boers, were indeed not really directly related to the netherlands in any way, but they spoke dutch and formed their republics after a dutch-esque model.
@@timonrolleman54 yes, but was more like a settlement. If you compare to the rest of ZA, very small area. European nations had many settlements, like in Japan, China etc. Cape was a staging area, for immigration. So you can't compare whole colonial take overs.
My grandpa and grandma fluent speaking netherland when they had been living years ago before they pass away. One thing i wan't to and it's a big question. Why does the language not to teaches in indonesian school from kindergarten till high school? Let dutch go to their homeland but let their language become a great culture for us indonesian people. We forgive the past but we don't hate the language. As we can see the south american doesn't hate spain and portuguese . Español and portuguese become national language . A love and peace from indonesia❤🇮🇩🙏
because of cultural and racist segregation by the Dutch. the Dutch language can only spoken by Dutch, Indos , and priyayi (nobility) people. So then and now we the indonesian see Dutch language as a distant language although many dutch words incorporated in indonesian
My personal opinion using Dutch language after independence will be judged as traitor. Less than 30 million people only use this tiny country language. Useless
Simple answer: revenge. We have high tension with netherland from 40s by japanese propaganda to 60s (nationalism). I think it needs because indonesia was like a baby in that time and need to build their own identity. And also we are not philippines who are proud their colonial heritage. We see it as shameful thing.
It was necessary at the time. Indonesia is hardly a monolith, and we don’t really have much of a unified history among our diverse groups of people, unlike, say, China with a history that stretches back thousands of years. We needed to form a new national identity since we couldn’t fall back on a nonexistent shared history.
Ik ben zelf geboren in een voormalige kolonie van Nederland. Mijn voorouders komen uit Africa, Azië en Europa. Veel mensen uit Suriname hebben nog wrok over het koloniale en slavernijverleden. Ik hoop zelf dat de samenleving zowel in Nederland als in Suriname meer inzicht en begrip zullen krijgen. We kunnen veel leren uit de geschiedenis. De geschiedenis mag zich niet herhalen. We zijn onlosmakelijk verbonden. We delen geschiedenis en familie. Een verontschuldiging zou wel op z’n plaats zijn. En daarmee samen ook meer kennis over elkaars cultuur en geschiedenis.
You are pursuing a very mature and measured perspective on analyzing history to the fullest extent it can and should be. Thank you for doing what you do.
As Indonesian i really love this video, because i like learn history, since many school text book here in Indonesia explained like totally different stories, i truly love this logic explanation in this video so new generation can view a different side of stories from Dutch point of view, so far i know history thought me one thing : "history is full violence" no matter what. keep up the good work man... Greetings from Indonesia
Full disclosure: my paternal grandmother was born and raised in the Indies, as was my maternal grandfather. And my mother lived in New Guinea for a few years when she was very young, but they left a couple of years before the territory was surrendered. I have family history there but none military and there may accidentally be a drop of Indo blood in me, but we've never quite figured that out. So what I say below comes more from my own interest in this subject. What makes me sad about the issue of apologies is that the Dutch government can't even apologise to its own soldiers who served in the KNIL but were never paid for the time when they were POWs of the Japanese (the "backpay" issue). In the end some cash was paid out to those still left alive, but not surviving relatives for example. Soon they'll all be dead and then the issue will have "gone away" as far as the government is concerned, which is very disgraceful. Or apologies to the soldiers in general. They are pretty much seen as colonial killers nowadays but they only followed the orders that they were given by civil society. Although they were not literally spat on like some Vietnam vets, you get the distinct impression that the bourgeois Dutchman who had never been to the Indies did not really want to know what kind of violence was used to preserve the wealth that the Netherlands profited from as a whole. It's a very Dutch kind of hypocrisy. Or apologies to the Indo-Europeans who had to leave Indonesia in successive waves and were given a cold welcome in the Netherlands and had to pay for every last penny. Compare that to what even illegal immigrants get today. But let's not open that can of worms or it will become a whole new polemic. Or apologies to the Ambonese who were sent to the Netherlands, where the Dutch government promised it would make an effort to get them an autonomous state, which the Dutch government was not even in a position to promise. Apologies to a generation that was raised in camps (sometimes former German WWII camps), which led to some of the younger hotheads to commit terrorist acts during the 1970s (which I utterly denounce). Or apologies to the Papuans who were annexed with a fake referendum and are now being exploited, colonised and displaced. Although the Dutch government at least tried to fight for New Guinea both diplomatically and militarily during the 1960s, our own German imported Prince Bernhard went behind their backs to get the Americans to pressure the Dutch government to let it go, so his corporate buddies wouldn't lose trade with Indonesia. I understand that the Dutch government did not try to maintain this last bit of the Indies. If we did, we would have been like Portugal in the 60s and 70s: sending off our young men to fight an endless colonial war while being condemned and isolated by the world. But does the Dutch king apologise for his family's actions in this matter? Does he lift even a finger for the Papuans? Does the Dutch government? No, only the Australians and some other Pacific states stand up for them. Most of the rest of the world just lets it happen, including deafening silence in the Netherlands. In general I think apologies are not the right gesture. I prefer "Truth and Reconciliation": tell the truth about what happened from all sides. Mutually agree to let the past be the past. Keep any financial claims out of it. Unfortunately the Netherlands is always good at being a "guiding country" to the world, even in supplicating to those we colonised, but we don't even do right by those who did tie their fates to us in this period and were abandoned or mistreated. Without staying silent about some human rights/minorities issues like West Papua (for which the Indonesian people should not be blamed collectively, since many of them don't even know about it), the Netherlands and Indonesia should be friendly and help each other. My impression is that Indonesia is a young, emerging, forward-looking country that does not want us to supplicate before them. In general nobody should have to supplicate for anyone. The idea that we should go on our knees for people because our grandparents once tried to force them on their knees seems to me a completely ignorant, zero-sum view of international relations. All nations should be able to stand up straight, look into each other's eyes, speak plainly and truthfully both about the areas where we can be friends and the issues on which we have different opinions.
I think that from the contemporary perspective we see that both colonialism and imperialism had multiple negative effects on local population. We also have to look at the situation from the point of view of the time those empires existed in and those were totally different from the world we live in. It is also crucial to remember that not all aspects of colonialism were negative. It is very important to talk about history in a honest way, but it seems like this type of moral condemnation is mostly focused on European nations. Does anyone espect an apology from the Mongols for the horrific acts done by them? Does anyone expect an apology from Turkey for white slave trade that lasted for closely five centuries and touched millions of Europeans? When we speak about Native Americans, we never talk about their acts of violence committed by them on sometimes peaceful settlers, of course Europeans committed many horrible acts and they were the ones not native to those lands. Whe should be able to apologize for our miss doing, but it can't be expected only from one side. The mainstream narration is focusing on pointing out the sins of Europeans and presenting them as inavaderes but we forget that during the long era of colonialism, Arbs were still in Iberia, Tatars were still in control of big part of eastern Europe and the Ottomans were going deeper and deeper into Europe, but the narration makes it seem like the European was always the conqueror and rest of the world consisted of his innocent victims.
I agree on the fact that not only Europeans can commit crimes, I am for instance fully aware through family history how Japanese imperialism treated other Asians. Europeans shouldn't be the only ones criticized for their crimes, but the thing is, the global impact of European colonization is huge, which contributes to that large focus on European nations. Consider how many countries have their independence from European countries, how many countries speak a European languages or how people were displaced through slavery or indenture labour. I don't want to disregard your whole argumentation, but do non-European nations have this much of an impact on the contemporary world?
@@kykale Not as big, of course, but there are many gray areas. For example Arab slave a trade lasted much longer than the transatlantic one and more people were enslaved by them and no one seems to even know about that fact. Tatar invasions had a great impact on Eastern Europe and millions of Europeans were simply "stolen", turned into slaves and then sold on slave markets. It is interesting, because numbers of those people are similar to the numbers of affricans that verse transported to North America. Crimea Khagnate was incorporated into Russia in 1786, that's raughly at the time of French Revolution. Almost 1/3 of Euroasian population died during the Mongol expansion, yet Ulan Bator is full of Chinghis Khan statues and streets named after him. Don't get me wrong, I belive that we should condemn many actions of European Nations, like what the Belgian did in Congo, or Germans did in Namibia, but the mainstream narration is simply not honest when it comes to discussing the overall history of the world.
True, it's not like there were no benefit at all to the colonization, but the europeans are pretty arrogant about it and are pointing at the wrong benefit. Civilization and technology is not the benefit of it (look at Thailand, never got invaded but modernized by itself), the benefit for Indonesia is that the archipelago was united as one big nation instead of being smaller weaker nation sprawling across the archipelago.
That's because unlike that period in history with the Mongols there are people who are alive today that remember those atrocities because they lived through them. Sure they may be old now but they deserve closure cause they had to witness their loved ones die before them. And the negative effects of colonialism exist even today in many societies and it has effected the social mores and beliefs of said society. Like many nations turnt homophobic because under colonial rule Europe instituted Christian based laws about sodomy and demonised homosexuality when say that society didn't have a concept of it before hand or how many societies judge that people of lighter skin color is better than their darker fellow citizens. Many people remember colonization, I met a Cameroonian man who lived during French colonization and a Gambian man who remembers British colonization. And the older generation in my family and community who are Vietnamese remembers French colonization like it was yesterday. I'm saying do it at least for the older generation.
I am a Dutch-Indonesian, born of a Dutch Mother and Indonesian Father in 1947, so I feel strong loyalty to both countries. Overall, I think you made a very fair presentation, with one exception. You explained the context of the atrocities committed by the Dutch POWs held by the Japanese, but failed to give context to the atrocities committed by the Pramudas. Consider how the Pramudas felt. They had endured the injustices of colonization by the Dutch, then they had to endure the Japanese occupation. So it is understandable that given the chance, they lashed out at the Dutch. The one thing the Japanese conquest had shown them was that the "White Man" was not superior to Asians after all. Again, it is not excusable, but this helps understand why it happened. Also, my Dutch mother, who was not very politically aware prior to WWII, told me that the KNIL was generally held in low regard in The Netherlands. "Het schuim van de schuim" is how she described them ("the scum of the scum" for those of you who don't speak Dutch). I'd like to hear more from Stefan about the KNIL
Hello William, Thank you for sharing your background and thoughts on this. Very interesting to read. I am aware that I didn't provide the context of the Indonesian youngsters well enough. This was basically due to the fact that the focus laid on the Dutch citizens themselve. Thank you for providing the additional insights. Actually I did make an episode about the KNIL a year ago. You can check it here: ua-cam.com/video/2MlbRPjppOs/v-deo.html I actually covered the Bersiap period on location in Surabaya a couple of years ago. You can check it here: ua-cam.com/video/JuvAlItkF4A/v-deo.html
Dutch guy here. Dutch people have been raised with awareness of what our great-grandparents’ government did, and raised to be apologetic for it. After 70 years I think we’re done. How about some apologies for how the current Indonesian government is mistreating its own people?
This is the interesting debate of "they did stuff too and should apologize". Perhaps is might take a while before that happens. And in that sense the Dutch can be an example. Who knows.
A Dutch friend of mine pointed me to this video after he brought a topic about the Dutch colonialism. As Indonesian, I totally agree with your point, especially about the crimes on both sides. In Indonesian student history book, at least during my time 15 years ago, the "Bersiap" period was never mentioned at any point. I only learned about this one when I grew up and read more material and understand the story from both sides. However, most typical Indonesian may not understand about the bad sides Indonesian did during the revolution war. Hence, some Indonesian were overly nationalistic and believed that the Dutch were the only bad guy. But definitely, both sides have points. We were both torn down to pieces by the Japanese occupation, which was really severe compared to the colonial period. Even my grandmother said that the Japanese occupation was the worst of all during her lifetime. So, I am sure both sides were really tired and were just afraid to lose the revolution war. As an Indonesian, I certainly would like to see my government admit and also apologize to the war crimes that happened on the Indonesian side. Because from what I heard, many Dutch were also traumatized by the event. But you are also somewhat correct. I think most Indonesian now are quite indifferent to what happened in the colonial era. You may attribute that to that we don't have the luxury to reminisce our past because we need to survive for the future. Perhaps we are just too busy with our current issues, which are more troublesome, than battling with whatever happened in the past. Considering that the common attitude in our country is not that good, such as lack of accountability, lack of critical thinking, corruption and so on, many of younger and educated generation to focus on recent issues, as we aim to change Indonesia towards a better nation. I would even say that if there is an Indonesian who is still being very petty towards the Dutch because of history is childish. We must move on. But, we will never forget the past as it is the lesson for our future. Therefore, all past mistakes will never be repeated again.
@@HistoryHustle You are welcome! I am glad my Dutch friend pointed to your channel. Your channel now becomes my collection of dinner-time UA-cam session! :D
There is absolutely no need for apology. There were many Dutch soldiers and civil servants who were sympathetic to the Indonesian cause (ie. Max Havelaar novel). Moreover, the Dutch aggressions were committed by Dutch ancestors, you are not your ancestors, you did not commit the act. You are not responsible for the decisions of your ancestors. The distinction must be drawn. Besides, apology does nothing. If like you said that Holland is a wealthy nation, and somehow feel "compelled" to help her former colony, then maybe she can give aide to Indonesia (which she has stopped giving starting this year, unfortunately). I think acknowledgement and stating of historical facts in the history books, in both countries, is the way to go.
'I think acknowledgement and stating of historical facts in the history books, in both countries, is the way to go.' That's quite ironic, considering indonesian books themselves whitewashed of their own atrocities pretty often.
Nope... I won’t apologise for anything I didn’t do, and I don’t expect anyone else to either. My father is English, my mother is Dutch, and I wouldn’t expect either of them to apologise for things they didn’t do, or for past colonialism. And I feel the same way about nations. Should Italy apologise for the occupation of England between 40BC to 400 AD? Should the Bantu tribes apologise for their expansion into Southern Africa which pushed the indigenous bushman people into the arid areas? It’s bullshit. Learn it, teach it, but don’t apologise for it.
Terra Preta I haven’t forced the Germans to do anything. But if someone finds stolen art, or stolen cash in a Swiss bank account, that can be traced to the original owner, or to their living relatives, then why would you not return it?
@@effortlessly We are not speaking about you in person, but as nation. Its kinda hypocrite that Dutch condemned for what nazi germany did, but made thousand excuses for the invasion of Indonesia in 1945-1949.. Germany won respect because its addressing ww2 crimes, apologized and the most important thing is telling the true history for young generation to learn.
@@effortlessly FYI Dutch took 230 kg of gold, 7000 kg of silver, and many jewelries from Lombok Sultanate in 1892-96. The Sultanate still there and no one gives back those treasure to the original owner or relatives.. LMAO
Ooohh Stefan, please tell history from both perspective not from your side only.. Talking abt wealth, Dutch plundered 230 kg of gold, 7000 kg of silver and many jewelries from Lombok Sultanate. Do you want discuss abt this?
what is really needed is not just verbal apologies. but must be officially acknowledged through the Official Documents of the state. because so far the Netherlands has not recognized independence on August 17, 1945 but according to the 1949 Round Table Conference agreement. not only did the Netherlands have to pay war reparations and surrender all Dutch companies formed since colonialism to the Indonesian people
Sukarno nationalized all remaining Dutch companies in 1957 when the NHM became what is now Bank Mandiri, the KPM what is now the PELNI, the BPM became Pertamina and many more.
ky it's not enough compared to forced planting, eviction, artifact robbery etc. even though the entire Amsterdam property was given to the people of Indonesia it was not enough.
Depends on the country. For India yes. For Canada no. I went to Canada and everyone seems to love the British but hate the French. (Though to be fair I never went to Quebec it's probably the other way round there.)
Luxembourgish Empire yea because “everyone” isn’t the people who lived there it’s former British colonists lol the European colonies in the Americas had way more settlers and one one (Uruguay i believe) was ever given back to the indigenous population, for example Dutch New Amsterdam became British New York instead of Wampanoag Manhattan, unlike the Dutch East Indies which was won back to the Indonesian people and all the Dutch left. If the Dutch Settlers had formed a new state, then you would see them having a similar relationship to the Netherlands that British ex-colonies have to Britain. But Britain has plenty of countries that fit both examples, ie British Kenya was not taken over by British Settlers while British South Africa was taken over by its British and Dutch settlers, meanwhile British Southern Rhodesia was initially taken over by its British settlers but later was taken over by the Zimbabwe natives.
i am a syrian refugee in the Netherlands and i am studying global law at the university of tilburg. your videos are so informative and neutral and your fleuncy in delivery is so accurate. thanks alot for all the efforts you put in your videos so we can learn from you. i have to say as well, despite the netherlands is a foreign land to me but this country has and still giving me a life and support more than i can say. yes, things are not perfect, the country goes into some ups and downs but in general, much respect to the country and dutch people in general lil bit hard to understand but still one of the most open minded and tolerant people i ever met. much love goes to Rotterdam, Feyenoord is here.
Well, every event has positive and negative things. Being an Indonesian, especially being a Javanese, some people may be accepted it as it was. So, some people will rather see our future together than trapped in our past. It is the time to move on.
Thank you to give me a new sight of our history. Many Indonesians did not understand the history of their country well. Indonesian people do not get proper historical education of our nation because the politics after were full of lies til these days.
@@HistoryHustle There are many figures who have been eliminated from their roles in the era of BERSIAP. There are also figures who are not told that at that time participated in KNIL or PETA and so on.
Monetary compensation would be in order considering the hundreds of years worth of daylight robbery committed during colonial era. Not to mention Indonesia actually paid off 90% of debt incurred by Dutch Indies colonial govt from 1949-1956, as some sort of extortion money to get the Dutch acknowledgement of independence.
Its part of the 1949 Roundtable Conference decisions. Basically the Dutch demanded Indonesia to pay for the debt incurred by Dutch Indies govt to Netherlands govt, which was mostly used to finance the suppression of the Republic.
No such thing, in fact the Brits normally gave monetary aid to its colonies who go independent. Not to mention the Brits actually gave independence mostly voluntarily. The Dutch only acknowledged independence of Indonesia with great reluctance due to American pressure bur left behind great debt burden to cripple the new state and lessen Dutch financial loss from Indo independence.
Minta maaf atau tidak ya itu urusan anda, Meminta maaf ya bagus Tidak meminta maaf pun tidak apa-apa, Lagipula itu adalah kejadian masa lalu, kita harus menuju masa depan yang lebih baik, tentu tanpa mengabaikan sejarah. Dan perihal periode bersiap, Kebrutalan yang terjadi bukan sepenuhnya dari pihak nasionalis Republik.. Para pemuda, laskar rakyat dan kelompok bersenjata liar yang tidak terorganisir oleh republik sangat mustahil untuk diatur oleh republik yang usianya masih belia, Jangankan Untuk Masalah Ketertiban, aparat keamanan saja masih belum terstruktur baik. Republik memang "menguasai" Indonesia, tapi hukum "siapa yang kuat dia yang berkuasa" masih berlaku di daerah-daerah. Apalagi meningkatnya para "garong" ditengah revolusi. Saya tidak akan sok pintar dengan berkata bahwa "banyak orang Indonesia tidak mengerti sejarah" Hmmm..
"Apologizing or not is your concern, Apologizing is good It's not okay to apologize, After all it is a past event, we must lead to a better future, of course without ignoring history. And regarding the preparation period, The brutality that occurred was not entirely from the Republican nationalists. The youth, the people's army and illegal armed groups that were not organized by the republic were impossible to regulate by a young republic, Never mind the problem of Order, the security forces alone were not well structured. The Republic indeed "controls" Indonesia, but the law "who is strong he is in power" still applies in the regions. Moreover, the increasing "robber" in the middle of the revolution. I would not be so smart as to say that "many Indonesians do not understand history"
@@HistoryHustle Are you sure that's the correct translation? I dont know, that "Garong" can be translated .. 😅 what do I know: "Garong" is "GAbungan ROmusha NGamuk" the ex-Romusha criminals but it's true they are "robbers".
@@HistoryHustle I'll give you a clearer translation : (although your translation was able to capture the essence of it anyway) To apologize or not is your business Apologizing is good, But it's fine even if you don't They are past events anyway, we need to look to a better future, without ignoring history And about the bersiap period The brutality that happened weren't fully from the nationalist, the pemudas (it means young people), people's legion, and other wild armed groups that were not organized by the republik could not have possibly been controlled by the republik that was just born, nevermind keeping the public order, the authority weren't even properly organized. The republik does have control of Indonesia, but the law where the strong rule was still happening everywhere in the archipelago Further inflamed by the rise of garong in the middle of the revolution (ex criminals) I will not try to pretend I'm smart by saying that a lot of Indonesians don't understand history
@Cakrawala uuy apanya yg pahit? emg lu hidup jaman penjajahan? kalo yg merintahin penjajahan masi idup, gw jg mau dia minta maaf ama kakek gw yg ud mati, tapi mereka smua dah mati, apalagi di pihak belanda nya, trus apa dan siapa yg mau minta maaf, orang raja yg skrg aja ga terlibat ama VOC... anda aja yg trlalu dramatis
It's more than about forgiveness. According to an article in Kompasiana, "Setelahnya perundingan terus berlanjut, akhirnya tercapai kesepakatan. Di mana Belanda bersedia menyerahkan kedaulatan Indonesia pada tanggal 27 Desember 1949 dengan catatan Indonesia harus membayar utang pada Belanda sebesar 6,5 miliar Gulden." If the Dutch apologize, they may have the obligation to repay as well.
As an Australian, I understand the legacy of colonisation is complex. I don't think the Netherlands needs to apologise for colonising Indonesia, but it needs to acknowledge the consequences of this and should apologise for certain aspects, such as atrocities during the war of independence. An apology may seem symbolic, but can make a huge impact to those affected. It is within living memory for a lot of people.
Dude...egypt pyramids are from thousands of years ago....This is only 80 years ago....some of fhe victims son and daughter still alive and feel first hand the killings and warcrimes......
Voor nog meer context en achtergronden -zeker voor wat betreft de periode vlak vóór het eindigen van WW2 en de Polotionele Acties- is het wellicht interessant om ook kennis te nemen van een artikel in Trouw, gepubliceerd 5 aug. 1995 onder de titel "voor Nederland kwam de Vrede veel te vroeg". Ik vond het een onthutsend relaas.
@@HistoryHustle dank je wel! ik heb me nu op jouw kanaal geabonneerd en zal zeker gaan kijken naar je video's. Ik was gisteren (10.3) erg onder de indruk -bij Op1- van Yvonne Keuls, toen zij heel helder verwoordde welke groepen in haar optiek zeer zeker ook een excuus te goed hebben namens Nederland. Vooral de repatrianten van Indisch/Nederlands bloed. Zo schandalig als zij zijn behandeld, ook na aankomst hier in Nederland. Ik ben hier geboren maar ik voel nog steeds de pijn van mijn moeder en grootmoeder..
Self harassment is really a problem in the Netherlands. I like your approach of history to view all aspects of the colonisation of Indonesia. To apologise is for me a strange action. I as a Dutchmen i have an opinion about the colonisation but i do not feel sorry for it. Because my generation is born after the colonisation period. Also the majority if Indonesian people are also born after this period. That mean the majority of the Dutch people have nothing done wrong to the majority of the Indonesian people. Saying sorry is therefor strange. You sorry for something you did not do. That is strange! If your grandpa is a serial killer why should you as a grand child have to apologise? And if so, does that mean that all generations after me have also to apologise to the generations of the victims? When does the duty of apologise ends??? Its a stupid thing. And it has no value for both sides because both sides does not really know for exactly what. We as generations after the colonisation period have knowledge of the history but that does not mean we know what it was because we did not have the experience of that live in that period. Also those people who lived in that period lived with different norms and values. In the middle ages the punishments of crime should now not be accepted. So you have to take also in account that the norms and values of today can not be extrapolated to the past. You have to observe the difference between them. Of course to investigate and objective history studies should not be avoided about this subject but this must also with a companied with the not so dark pages of history or even with shiny pages of history. Like the archives of the VOC which are very valuable for the history of Indonesia and also in Asia as a whole. Also the archives and maps and agreements of borders and sea's done by the Dutch indies are now very valuable for Indonesia for their territorial claims and disputes. Now very relevant with the expansion of China's influences in Asia...
Thankyou i know that you just want to give a better explanation about your country bad thing act during Indonesia National Revolution(1945-1949).perhaps the best thing to do is waiting for the investigation that Will be done on 2021,and after that Indonesia and the Netherlands should sit together in a formal meeting to end this dispute once for all and acknowledging the mistake that Indonesia and Dutch do in the 1945-1949 period and forgiving each other and closing the book about this past.so the two nations can walk for a better future without any regretion and sins in the past. By the way Im Indonesian.
@@HistoryHustle okay.you are a good man sir.im enjoyed with your historical content that you Made. I hope you can create more historical content.especially the other side aspect about Dutch colonialism in Indonesia(1600-1942).
As far as I know Dutch colonisation usually was done with quite a soft touch compared to the practices of other colonisers. Many a regional chieftain in Indonesia was allowed to remain ruler in his own territory though he had to be a subservient to the Dutch coloniser and deliver on whatever they demanded. But it wasn't all one way; The Dutch also tried to improve the lives of the population through healthcare and education. An apology would be absurd if the party you are demanded to apologize to will not even recognize or admit the atrocities they have been involved in.
I'm not sure Roy. I think the British were mostly "better" colonizers than the Dutch who carried out lots of repressions. Think you can level the Dutch with the French. Yet, I need to do further study for this.
@@HistoryHustle It has been quite some time ago I read about Dutch History including colonial history. What does stuck to my mind I'd that for Dutch traders maximising profits came before pride. Maintaining a standing private colonial army was very expensive and if that army could be minimised by bribing local chieftains profits could be increased. The same willingness to swallow pride is what allowed Dutch traders to be much more successful than other European traders when it came to Japan. Simply by showing deference to the Shogun by kneeling before him the won preferred status
apologizing will not bring back the past, but will at least remove the psychological burden from both countries. My grandfather was one of the fighters in the Dutch colonial era. When I was kid, my grandfather used to tell me that he had a constant fear of being shot. he used to always hide in the hole that he dug by himself. he covered the hole with tree trash and hid in it.
Daring subject. Stefan....good job! Discussions brings matters further and better in perspective. We dutch can be evil as mankind? Is current Indonesia a colony of its own? Draft a farmer son, ship him to a warm country where he sleeps badly. One day the are ordered.to go on patrol and try to find a missing Dutch soldier. After a few hours they find HIM.....lying in a ditch. His body badly mutalized. Just a kid of barely 20......lying in a ditch....an uncle of my Mother told me the story.....the uncle the farmer Son from the North of the Netherlands...honger winter......nazi occupation......and few Years later .....they shot at you......you find your friend badly mutalated. No body is right where every body is wrong. ............. but one generation later my brother Marries a indonisian girl has two kids and lives happly... ever after. ❤️ Look back but live forwards.... zoals eerder aangegeven uitstekend werk Stefan!
Without the Dutch the same thing would have happened, or worse, over there. Overall the Dutch presence was a net plus for the area. I'm not going to apologise and pay for things that happened decades or centuries before I was born.
But rich Holland still living off the fruits of centuries of plundering of nations which to this day are poor, underdeveloped and economically oppressed. (The same of course also applies to England, France, etc.)
We can only speculate what would've happened if they Dutch didn't colonize the region. Looking at other European colonizers I think the Dutch were as bad as the French and worse than the British. The British didn't wage a war over Malaysia to keep it (although they took part in the Emergency but that's another story).
Agree when you say to look at history from all aspects, all side. As the next generation, we want history to be shown as it is without anything to be covered up even if it's embarrassing. That is important as lesson and learn for the next generation and friendship in the next future.. This is a tough challenge for any country's politicians
Looking at all aspects of history is a historian’s job. Apologizing for atrocities under the Dutch king’s/government’s watch is their job. Being open minded, welcoming and looking forward to a better future is all peoples’ job. Everyone do your job.
No way we have to apologise for the colonisation! If the Dutch didn't do it an other west-Europese country would have colonized it. The only thing i think we have to apologise for is for the atrocities that happened throughout the centuries. If the Dutch haven't colonized Indonesia and other parts of the world, there wouldn't be a Netherland.
I agree with you on the fact that if the Dutch didn't colonize Indonesia another country would've done that. Heck, the Portugueze had East Timor and the British briefly had Sumatra (and Java before that). I'm not so sure if the Dutch did not colonize the East Indies the Netherlands wouldn't exist today. See, the Act of Abjuration (Plakkaat van Verlatinghe) in 1581 (or "declaration of independence from Spain") was signed before the Dutch expanded their trade. On the flipside, because of the costly war with Spain that was already ongoing the Dutch were forced to make trade and colonize. Very interesting what-if scenario because there are so many variables.
@@HistoryHustle it wasn't only the colonization of the East Indies , also the West Indies was important for the Netherlands to exist. The Dutch Republic gained such good money from these territories and the silver fleet to prolonge the war against Spain. Otherwise it was lost i think.
I am curious...based on your videos focusing on the War period, can you contextualize, say, Nazi or Soviet atrocities in the same way you did with the Dutch in Indonesia? For me, I can rationalize and almost understand the Soviets' activities in eastern Europe, but the Wehrmacht and SS activities in eastern Europe can't be explained the same way as you explain this postwar, post-traumatic period for the Dutch in Indonesia.
Good question. I believe everything can be contextualized. The question is: with what goal? If the goal is to white wash events I am against it. If it is to provide a full picture of the story I understand it. It differs per subject. If you want to understand why ordinary men went on a killing spree contextualizing is a must. If you want to write about the victims and facts it is not always of need I think. Again, you can always provide context, but your goal should be made clear.
@@HistoryHustle At the time The Netherlands were one of the most developed and dominant cultures in the world. They expanded, conquered other territories, carried their develpments elsewhere. Nature demands it. It is part of evolution.
Addressing a country's past trauma and atrocities is always a touchy subject. On one hand I firmly believe that one is not guilty for the sins of their ancestors but on the other, when discussing colonialism or slavery it is especially important to understand that the scars from these actions have long lasting and traumatic effects on the victims. This is one of the big focus points on discussion of slavery in the US. I guess it comes down to what good is an apology if there is no work towards change or helping the communities most effected. Also as you mentioned what do the people of Indonesia want, perhaps they don't care about some bloaks in Europe or perhaps a formal acknowledgement would be appreciated and seen as a step towards improving relations with Indonesia.
@@HistoryHustlea lot of other countrys, like Spain, Portugal, England an France also had colonies. What im trying to say is that almoste every one had slaves and colonies, its was normal in that time
Neteherland's King absolutely had apologize to Indonesian government and peoples in formal visit on 2019 in the past of his colony and all of have done of his country in three and half centuries in colonialism, conquest and crime in Indonesian archipelago
If that's the case, same gonna happen to spain (catalonia), america (texas), canada (quebec), china (hongkong, tibet, xinjiang, inner mongolia), india and pakistan (kashmir), UK (scotland and northern ireland), israel (palestine), many more
I mean I can talk in detail a whole lot more about west papua to counter this, but I'm not sure this is the place to do it since this video is talking about something else
@@adinnaikhwani6255 well people can vote in certain countries to cecede. scotland and northern ireland, catalonia quebec can all vote. texas cannot since we already remember what secceding from the union will do. not sure about the asian countries.
honestly we indonesians don't really care that much anymore. i mean yeah there was messed up shit, we should learn from that history, if you wanna apologize for that then yeah sure go ahead but we honestly don't really care for any apology, no one really cares about it, we have more important things to focus on. i find it pretty ironic that i see some dutch peeps going crazy over "DARK HISTORY NEVER FORGET WE OWE THE INDONESIANS AN APOLOGY" while we've moved on from that, we don't really need an apology, we have better things to work on now.
Indonesia would never exist the ways it maped today if the Netherland or British didn't came to colonize them. the borneo island would never splited to 4 country region. like it is today. and even if they the colonizer didn't came, some one else will. the japan, and many more potental colonizer. and even if the Europe didn't came, the war and chaos is still happening in those region , anyway.
No, not a penny should be paid nor should there be any apologies. This generation did not participate in the cruelties between 1600 and 1949. I do not expect this generation of Germans to apologize for WW II and I do not expect Spanish people to apologize for the Inquisition and cruelties during the 80 years war. However we must be aware that our ancestors were not saints and did horrible things outside Europe.
@@adema1978 Dutch colonized Indonesia and refused to acknowledge Indonesian independence (17 August 1945). Then somehow Indonesia were made to pay "debts" to the Netherland until 2003. Does that sound like you don't ever get any advantage from the colonization? Think again :)
As someone from a country who did not colonize and never got colonized, I think the dutch government or royal house should issue an apology to the generation still living for past cruelty and misery which was rooted by the colonialisation. A symbolic gift, like supporting homes for the elderly or something else useful like granting x students per year the possibility for a paid exchange year in the Netherlands would also be a nice thing. But I don't think the Dutch have to apologise to the country, only to the people from this time periode who still live.
my great grandfather was shot dead by dutch soldiers in front of his house in the 1947s. he was just a civilian, the dutch soldiers mistook him for the man they were looking for because he had the same name as the person they were looking for. My grandmother, who was orphaned when she was a child, didn't know whats to be done, because she is just a rural people who dont even understand Indonesian (malay) and can't read and write. my grandmother is now 80yo.
it's been a long long time ago, even for the second generation of indonesian after dutch colonies, they no longer think of it as a big deal... we forgive but we wont forget, that's it
My grandfather was Indonesian National Army Liutenant during Indonesian war of Independence. He used to told us about what Belanda do to prisoner of war. it's not pretty tough, but my grandfather never hates Belanda. His and his friends wish from Belanda is only one, FOR BELANDA ACKNOWLEGDE INDONESIA INDEPENDENCE IN 17 AUGUST 1945, that's it. We as Indonesian was taught not to have a grudge, let bygones be bygones. Forgive but not forget, yes there's Atrocity that was done by both sides but what's the point talking about that? apologies to whom? lot of our elder was already dead by now. And their children also didn't want us to talk about it. Why? because war of Independence was sacred to our elder, they didn't wish us as their children have a grudge, that will impact negativity on our psychology, they want us to remember our elder that fight for Independence as hero that even Belanda treated them horribly they're not giving up, to make Belanda Recognize that Indonesian was Independent. They themselves doesn't want Apology what they want is Acknowledgement, we are not weak people and we don't wish to be one. For myself Apologizing is act of insult towards our heroes, thus why we didn't ask for it. BECAUSE THAT WAS THE BIGGEST INSULT that Belanda will give to us. Rather than Apologize why not Reconsiliate? why not Increase coorporation between us? like we always do. Let's have peace with our past and let's move foward. For good or worse we have walk together for 350 years. We shouldn't forget about that, to my Belandas brother we don't hate you, we don't wan't any apology. We welcome you to come as friend's and brother's peace out
No country is without history or war including Indonesia itself ( Western Guinea and Ambon) up to today. More important is that nations respect their own people and eachother : the Kings official state visit is showing to the people of Indonesia that they are important and they are well respected ( otherwise the King and Queen would not even come ). And let's not forget that Indonesia is receiving for over 60 years ( billions euro's in total) money for development support ( ontwikkelingssamenwerking) being a so-called toppriority country and this would not be the case if Indonesia was not respected by the dutch government: now and in the past since their indepence !
After King Willem apologized for "the excessive violence", I think the next step would be recognizing August 17, 1945 as our independence day in the spirit of reconciliation. December 27, 1949 isn't celebrated as anything here anyway.
I am not sure whether this already is recognized. Again, if doing so it would mean illegalizing the Dutch campaign and that's gonna be tricky for Dutch politicians I believe.
@@HistoryHustle I know the dilemma. Instead of lip service by the king, this is more impactful to forge a stronger bond forward. I know many Dutch politicians fear potential lawsuits, reparations, etc. and angering war veterans. However as many Indonesian diplomats often said: "We want to move forward and not looking back." I think many Indonesian people share the same sentiment. Forgiven not forgotten. Of course we don't want the future Dutch generations educated with whitewashed history. Let's treat Indonesian reoccupation the same as Nazi occupation in Netherland. "Politionale actie" bullshit should be taught properly. It's not a police action if you do it by drafting young gullible men (and former SS Dutch) soon after the great war and your homeland recently liberated from Nazi. They were soldiers not policemen.
Very well presented and balanced story Stephan. I think for all racism, atrocity, mistreatment and all bad thing in the past.. We should be sorry for that. But we are generation that neither do nor become victim of those events. I think apology from His majesty King Willem-Alexander is a good act and much needed action to better of our relation.
I think the Dutch should apologize although i'm not hellbent on you doing it, we can live without it, if you do it you will show your sincerity in closing some history of conflict in indonesia. and by apologizing i mean not only for police action after 1945 but also for the period before that. Because if you would look deeper into the relation between the dutch and indonesia, Aceh sultanate (now part of indonesia) is among the earliest, if not the first, who acknowledge the dutch republic independence movement against spain which led by Maurice of Orange. In 1602 Aceh sultanate sent a delegation to the dutch led by Tengku Abdul Hamid who even died there and buried in middelburg. So as an acehnese, if someone ask me about the dutch colonies in indonesia, i dont know what to say as i take this as a betrayal on the highest level.
I understand your point. I did not know about Aceh recognizing the Dutch Republic. Thanks for sharing. I don't know what their motivations were for doing this. We can be critical about this. Since Dutch ships already sailed to the Indies (end of the 15th century I believe) it might be done out of goodwill to get favorable trade agreeements. Do notice that Dutch attempth to take over Aceh started in the second half of the 19th century. In other words: that is around 350 years later. It's kinda the same as saying the as a Dutch person I think Spain should pay us instead of the other way around (because of EU regulations) because of the Spanish terror in the 15th and 16th century. Apart of that I do find the way the Dutch handled revolts in Aceh extremely brutal and it's sad that so many people from Aceh were killed.
@@HistoryHustle you are welcome, its my joy that at least one more person knows about this information as i find this information rarely known and discussed. Maybe my mistake in not elaborating about apologizing, for me the most inportant part of apoligizing is recognition, then after that you need to show the good faith/intention to follow up the aplogy. Of course the follow up step is not limited to paying, rather on how you show the sincerity. And lastly, as i find that the way you are explaining in the video that you are not trying to whitewash the brutalities that the dutch perform in the indonesia. You still need a careful way of explaining thing such as using "revolts" as it could show that you already placed yourself (or dutch) on a higher ground. That is because the Sultan of Aceh never surrendering the authority to the dutch, he give the authority back to the acehnese as a whole and acehnese still fighting for their country. I know war could be sensitive topic to discuss as it could easily offend people, so i tip my hat to you for your effort and stand. Hope you could do better in the future... sorry for the long reply.
Duh... What kind of question is that. They're not going to bring back the slaughtered, tortured and enslaved... The least that they could do is recognize it and apologize
as an Indonesian I'd like to say very simple solution to all this, "sing wis yo wis", if all of you understand this simple phrase, all complicated perspective both indonesia and dutch will disapear
My grandmother was a daughter of Dutch businessman who travelled from Amsterdam to East Indies.Later she married an Indonesian Army (my grandfather) during the war of independence... Her parents and sisters went back to Netherlands after Indonesia was proclaimed. Meanwhile she stayed in Indonesia, because she love my grandfather and didn't want to part with him. Even though she stayed in Indonesia until this day we still keep the Dutch family name as our family name, it's Vanderburgh. I still remember when she was angry, she always said things in dutch, meanwhile i just laughed because i didn't understand back then when i was still young.Sometimes she sang a lot of songs in Dutch and tell how things had changed a lot. Rest in Peace, my grandmother, Tregreida Vanderburgh.
European always make justification about what they did. Actually it is simple to answer. Do you think what you did to asian and african, the imperialism and colonialism are RIGHT or WRONG? Do you think what Nazi did to you is RIGHT or WRONG? Dont talk about Tartars, Romans, Ottoman. Its another cases
Learn more about the history of Indonesia via this playlist:
ua-cam.com/video/Od8mxfE0Ggk/v-deo.html
I appreciate that you made this video, now that reflecting on the Dutch colonial past has been important than ever before. I only have been hearing this discussion on the Dutch side, so putting this issue on UA-cam is really getting this international. I just discovered that you made videos on location in Indonesia, which is great. I have also have made videos on location on Indonesia, but they focus more on urban history and architecture. They're not finished yet, but I'll let you know when they are.
(p.s. is dat een oude wereldkaart van de jaren 50 toen West Papoea nog Nederlands Nieuw-Guinea was?)
Thanks for your response. The map is actually a fairly modern one (couldn't find a date of fabrication but considering the modern material), but perhaps based on the 1950s.
@@HistoryHustle
introduce me, I'm an Indonesian. my grandfather was a freedom fighter against the dutch army in sumatera. I also studied Indonesian history and im a law student.
morally, who started hatred and bloodshed for hundreds of years in the archipelago (now Indonesia) is the Netherlands. Dutch empire came with the intention of trade but turned into colonialism. about Dutch citizens living in Indonesia and possibly being killed by Indonesian nationalist fighters in the 1900s. Try to imagine.. how nationalist fighters and their families might have suffered for hundreds of years and then faced with the fact that they could repay them? surely they will kill because they may also be retarded in terms of education and morals. I understand you focus on the mistakes of the Dutch empire in the 1900s but why don't you as a historian try to understand the history of the Dutch kingdom's ill-treatment from the 1600s to the early 1900s? that time frame is the reason why nationalist fighters might commit murder or crime on Dutch citizens in Indonesia. revenge and hatred caused by the kingdom of the Netherlands which also triggers the crime. so I ... as an Indonesian citizen ask / want the Dutch kingdom to apologize formally to Indonesia. We do not ask for material (money) for the apology but only ask for sincere words that the Dutch kingdom regrets their actions in the past ..
And last days, dutch king apologize to indonesia. Thats good for both of country.
@@whenyournameisduoduos1282
say that also to the Germans who apologize for the cruelty of world war II, made by Hitler (was a leader).
So, it's about morality. Your logic can be accepted if the action was carried out by a person who reflects himself. but if a crime is committed by a government that reflects the state / kingdom.. so whoever the leader is morally obliged to apologize for the crimes committed by the previous government.
@@whenyournameisduoduos1282
if Germany has a Nazi party. then the Netherlands has a trading organization, the VOC (though not as cruel as Nazis but still makes people suffer and kill). many entered the VOC voluntarily.
As an Indonesian, I think apologizing is a bit dramatic or over the top, but both sides need to recognize the good and really bad sides of their history. Blaming the current countries for their old past crimes is ignorant.
I think both the Netherlands and Indonesia should maintain a good relationship and support each other.
Agreed
Is it even a big thing in Indonesia nowadays?
@@erikthehalfabee6234 Meh, not really a big deal. I honestly never hear anything about it outside of history class. In my perspective, I think most people here don't really pay much attention to the Netherlands.
Thanks for your response Skygazer!
It's okey to forgive but we never forget. I just realy Disappointed someone so evil like sterling live in peace and die peacefuly in warm bad.
I dont think indonesian need/want an apology anymore since indonesian already at "forgive not forget" stance. What we want is acknowledgement in dutch history that colonialization was horrible. Because i find it weird that there are dutch people who understand the cruelty of nazi occupation still think it's okay to reoccupy indonesia after 1945 and dont believe dutch commited warcrime during war of independence.. at least germans are self conscious about their nazi's past. Why cant dutch?
I believe many Dutch are aware of the horrors of colonization and independence war. Some might simply not know it because when they went to school it wasn't elaborated on in class or they simply forgot.
@@HistoryHustle personally im dutch myself and like I found out last year what we did in Indonesia (after ww2) and im 16 so im in still in high school and I think in school they don't pay enough attention to what we did in Indonesia, the only major thing we learn is that we colonised it because of the spices. Oh and btw your Channel is great I watch it very often so like yeah what I tried to say is that school doesnt really teach us enough about Indonesian dutch history
Both sides had committed incredible atrocities, I think it’s more logical for both sides to make a forgivement. So that public views are neutral,and we don’t look back
@@felocitybudmanlim2816 ya i agree that both side comited war crime, but i think its important to know who the one that started violence and war crime , off course war crime cannot be right, its always wrong,but if you got punched by someone you Will punch them back right?thats what we believe, and we didnt start it and we didnt want that happened but thats already happened.
Now we are in peace and we must look forward 🙏✌️
@@BenjiDurden1 you should learn more
As an Indonesian, I agree that a vast majority of us would prefer to look at the future rather than the past. I am 60 years old and I grew up with parents who were educated by the Dutch HBS school. They spoke fluent Dutch at home.
Despite that, my father had fought against the Dutch and the Japanese. He lost his brother who was 17 years old fighting against the Dutch in Central Java. My mother worked as a young nurse and was the one who treated thewounded and injured Pemudas. (Freedom Fighters).
Our families do not have any resentment against the Dutch or Japanese. We do not seek for apologies from our former colonizers. Nevertheless, we did get one from the King just recently. In my humble opinion that only cements our relationship with the Netherlands.
They are no human beings on this planet who have no sin. War is ugly. No doubt about it. However at the end it did bring some healing.
When my father visited Holland; he met an ex KNIL soldier at Pasar Tong Tong in the Hague in the 90s. It turned out they were both in the same battle and fought against each other. I wished I had recorded their hours of conversation. It was fascinating. In the end it brought healing for both of them. It brought light to unresolved issues.
My dad would be 96 years old if he was alive.
I was fortunate to have been assigned to Rotterdam for 3 years as GM for an international company in 2000. I still love the Dutch People till today.
Thanks for the history lesson and videos!
Dear Daniel, many thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this. This is surely inspiring for when I'm teaching about this topic. Best wishes!
My grandfather died to defend Indonesian independence. The Dutch soldiers tortured him to death in the prison.
The apology may not bring him back. However, my family have forgiven the Dutch since along time ago. We cannot change the past, but we can make a future: a great one.
Sorry to hear about your grandfather. Thanks for sharing this.
My family including my aunt and her toddlers were slaughtered by your Nationalist Pemudas= coward baby murderers NOT freedom fighters at all!!
They targeted defenseless women and children based on their skin colour. Raped and slaughtered them.
No apology has ever been made by any of your Indonesian leaders. Not even a sign of remorse.. instead they continue to glorify those warcriminals and baby murderers like Sutomo!
Justifying Genocide through Narionalistic mass propaganda.
Indonesia is a criminal country.
I'm dutch and i feel sorry for your grandfather, i want to get revenge on what the dutch soldiers
dutch teach us how to say “ gratis”
Yes!
Gratis is one of the most important word in indonesia
True
As and dutch Guy, Gratis is very easy to say!
While for Indonesia and Spanish means Free.
Dutchmen here: OOF, sensitive subject, this is going to get some people mad!
I like how you touched this subject, add more nuance and didn't come in with a answer made beforehand (like that exhibition and many people in general)
Would love to see even more about these things!
Thanks! I did made videos about Indonesian history before, see the playlist:
ua-cam.com/video/Od8mxfE0Ggk/v-deo.html
My Great Grand Father is Dutchman. He is kind of good Dutchman, and he loves his family a lot. He disagree with colonization that Dutch did to Indonesia. He said to his wife "I'm sorry for all bad things that Dutchmen did to Indonesian" for all his life. I love him so much even though i never saw his face.
Thanks for sharing this.
As someone from the Netherlands with "pribumi" parents from Indonesia with a big interest in Dutch colonial history and the history telling through my family, I feel the need to address this topic. I'll give more nuances by having understood the Indonesian and Dutch narratives of colonial history as some answers give irrelevant comparisons or play it down by using the fallacy of 'other countries also did it'. My impression with Indonesians nowadays is that they could care less about the colonial past, let alone an apology. The miseries of the Orde Baru are more relevant sorrows to most Indonesians. Likewise, the average Dutch person isn't to blame to what happened in the past, as much as a child is to blame for the past actions of their parents. However, it's a very recent happening with people still alive remembering the period. It's not ages ago.
If you consider how the Dutch government has been handeling decolonization and the post colonial relationship with Indonesia, it is very uneasy and a bit of sweeping the issues under the carpets. From calling the war 'police actions', hiding atrocities, the excessennota, the lengthy lawsuits against Dutch war crimes and even the Indonesian state having to pay the Netherlands a debt until 2003. Ever since the independence the Dutch state has been avoiding to take responsibility for that period with the verjaringswet by expiring the accusations of massacres. An apology could close this chapter of history, that doesn't seem to be properly closed.
In the end, an apology is only symbolic and will not change the past, but it however changes how we see/treat the past. The best way to the treat the past is through acknowledgement, like exhibitions that showcases that unfortunate side of colonialism and through education. This is not to burden people with guilt, but give a broader perspective on history. The last thing that needs to done are financial compensations. Who knows where the money ends up?
Thanks for your extensive elaboration. Very interesting to read. Again, thanks for sharing!
We don't use the word pribumi anymore in Indonesia, because it signifies that certain people are the real native in the archipelago when in truth everyone came to the archipelago, no one is the real native. It's to erase away the toxicity of dutch legacy that just breeds racism here. It's been like that since the early 2010's. This whole pribumi word breeds only ethnic conflict, inflamed even more by the new order, fortunately we are moving away from it now, so just be mindful about it if you are ever in Indonesia.
@@askkedladd makasih. As a second generation Indonesian I'm a bit detached of what's happening in Indonesia so I didn't know about it. I only used pribumi to make a difference between the Indo-Dutch, who migrated to the Netherlands between 1945 and 1964, a group that contains both white Dutch but Indonesian born people and mixed Indonesian-European people who have Dutch surnames. Fun fact: they have been the largest migrant group in the Netherlands, although Dutch people would have never thought that. Most of the Indo-Dutch my age are 3rd to 5th generation Indo-Dutch, so they're even more detached from Indonesian and mostly less Indonesian looking. An interesting thing is: the Indo-Dutch were native to Indonesia as they were born there, despite their more western upbringing. Many of the first generation who migrated to the Netherlands, never felt that the colonial motherland was their homeland, because some Indo-Dutch families have been living in Indonesia for many generations without coming to the Netherlands. Some of them will say that they felt they were forced to leave their homeland of Indonesia. My Indo-Dutch great grandparents also saw Indonesia as their homeland and, as one of the few Indo-Dutch who stayed, opted for Indonesian citizenship. Despite culturally being more European than Indonesian, it doesn't mean that they belonged to Europe. History is never black and white.
A similar issue like the pribumi/non-pribumi divide in the Netherlands is the autochtoon (native) and allochtoon (ethnic minority) divide. In 1971, the word allochtoon was insisted as a neutral term for migrants or descendants of migrants and was futher divided into western and non-western migrants. Another fun fact: people born in Japan and Indonesia were registered as western migrants, because 1) Japan was modernized and 2) Indo-Dutch people. However, although the word allochtoon was officially neutral, it was exclusively used by people and the media for non-western minorities, usually when something negative happened. Because of this and the fact that second/third generation migrants were regarded as not native, despite living all their lives in the Netherlands, the words autochtoon and allochtoon had to be replaced by person with/without a Dutch background. Now some questions for you: is there a replacement for the word pribumi? And how sensitive is it to use the words Cina/Chinese instead of Tionghoa?
@@kykale There is no replacement word for pribumi, just call someone their ethnicity if you want to mention it.
People in official capacity will always use tionghoa, but in daily life many still use cina whatever their ethnicity, because they're used to it. It's no big deal usually because most people don't mean harm when they used the word, so it really depends on the context as to whether it's fine or not to use the word cina in daily life.
Lol pribumi? Found the racist here!
Most of indonesia is thinking "sing wis yo wis" its useless to thinking about the past, but learn from it is a must. Be a better person who learn from the past mistake, and start thinking about the future.
And for me I am Indonesian
Thanks for sharing your insights.
No need to apologize .... we are merciful forgiving people.
Soekarno ever said
"respect your enemies, because they're aware of your weaknesses".
But also he ever said
"never leave history!"
Agree. Thanks for posting.
I'm Indonesian. Thank you for presenting this sensitive subject carefully, still be ready if there will be ignorant people throwing hate.
What the Dutch has done in the colonial era was horrible, that is a fact, colonialism is never a good thing. We're left with what we call a colonial era's mindset where white people are often seen as cruel, evil, uncultured, but also better and somewhat have a higher social status (it may be less relevant to the current generation).
BUT, what most or some Indonesian miss out are the cruelty done by the local leaders like the governors and bupatis (a position which at the time given to kings or someone in such positions by the dutch especially in Java). You can read or watch "Max Havelaar" to get a glimpse.
You are right that we don't like to look back, yet we like to just blame whoever we're told are in the wrongs so we can just move on and look forward to build this country, IMO.
Should the dutch apologize? Yes but also no. Yes, the leaders have to acknowledge the horrible events that happened. I don't understand about if there are costs that they have to pay for what they've done, especially in the 1947 when the aggression happened. No if you're saying as if the dutch people are involved because in my opinion the people will follow the leaders and they're often brainwashed or have no control to what happened, like you can't blame the whole germans for what Hitler did.
Thanks for this very insightful comment. Greatly appreciated!
My thing is there are people who are alive today that remember those atrocities because they lived through them. Sure they may be old now but they deserve closure cause they had to witness their loved ones die. Many people remember colonization, I met a Cameroonian man who lived during French colonization and a Gambian man who remembers British colonization. And the older generation in my family and community who are Vietnamese remembers French colonization like it was yesterday. I'm saying do it at least for the older generation.
Please do not try to argue that your own rulers were cruel against your own populace, who do you think put them to these cruelties? Who do you think forced/coerced them into making these people under them work harder? It was the Dutch who put out harsher and harsher demands of yields etc. Using the local leaders as ''executers of the law'' ensured that the indonesians wouldnt see the Dutch as the boogeyman, but just the local rulers. Of course the local indonesian rulers were to blame to a certain extent, but do not try to explain away their actions as being purely out of their own interest.
@@timonrolleman54 I disagree with that, in fact those local nobles have practiced these kind of horrendous serfdom since centuries ago, also happily to do the bidding of Dutch colonial official since it also enrich themselves a lot, it's not just limited in Asia and Africa, European peasents also felt the same thing, being heavily taxed from hair to toe being extracted out our wealth, forced to works in unsanitary condition in long periods, ang divides half or more of the harvest to the local rulers, this is not purely because of Dutch nation is only responsible for the colonization and exploitation in Indonesia, rather more correctly the rich and powerful in fact are the perpetrator, no matter if it's the native or the Dutch, they all are people with sins eventually, but stronger and wealthier than the common folks. There are of course good nobles that cared for his/her own subjects, however let me take an example, Sultan Iskandar Muda with his draconian laws, and so on. At the end we are brutally did horrendous atrocities, against one and another like animals for eternity, at least today we hope that we wouldn't commit such crime against humanity any longer in future, even though it still happening in present day.
"what the Dutch did during Colonialism is horrible, that's a fact."
Do I already agree with that alone.
Very well formulated and clear way of presenting this without being one sided, i liked it!
Thank you, Dani!
And today the dutch king came to indonesia and apologize for the colonialism
Indeed.
He didn't apologize for a 350 year colonialism. He did though apologize for the cruelty of KNIL during "those years" (1945-1949).
POST THE LINK
@@bravovermeulen1482 POST THE LINK
@@randyferwerda9153 ua-cam.com/video/PbTFnjLDna0/v-deo.html
Nih LINKNYA
i'm an indonesian, and i love your videos because this video is more detail and honest than my history class in indonesia, thank you for presenting this sensitive subject carefully.
Many thanks. Glad you liked it.
Idk, the Dutch gave us Hagelslag and cool loanwords. For me that's enough apology.
Haha, fair enough.
You're cool
You got hagelslag? I'm moving over there!
@geheimschriver
Its done. King of dutch officially apologize to indonesia when he come to indonesia
@geheimschriver that is so unnecessary, for me as indonesian, it feels like a psycho ex girlfriend texting me at 4 am, apologizing for what she did to me 12 years ago, it is unnecessary and it just brings back old wound...
2 days later the Dutch king made his apologies on behalf of the Dutch government, who could've guessed...
I kinda saw it comming.
@@HistoryHustle well, there was this investigation so that threw me off guard a bit
And the actual veterans that fought there would like to kindly disagree: ua-cam.com/video/bUOeRlO2Cso/v-deo.html&ab_channel=IndischeKwestie%2FIndischPlatform2.0
The king might be a king, but he cannot apologize for things he did not commit or witness. That apology is worthless, also for the Indonesian people, in more senses than the word can encapsulate.
I'm an Indonesian. When I was a young boy I was taught that western countries were evil colonializer and Indonesia was a victim, and since 1945 Indonesia was free.
Our heroes such as Soekarno, Hatta were honored with holy halolight.
Then as I grew up I later learnt that it was not that simple.
Many complicated things happened. There were tears from both sides of war. Our Indonesian heroes had so many weakness and did shameful act as well. That's real history, and that's it.
I hope Indonesians and Dutch will be running together to a better future.
Thanks for your honest reply, Yohanes!
🤮🤮
@@rakaboomboom3676 🤮🤮⛔🇮🇩⛔
As a Dutchman myself, here is how i feel like about it.
Yes it was horrible what we did to Indonesia, yes we were cruel. But should we apologize? the thing is that it won't really matter, i mean we Dutch truly feel bad about it but as good as everyone who were during that time are dead, so it would be pointless if a Dutchman like me in my twenty's to apologize for something all of us play no part of it. To me it would feel like demanding a German these days to apologize for ww2, i can demand all i want but i wasn't there in ww2 and neither did the German of my age so the apology would be kind of useless.
I just feel like we shouldn't keep looking in the past, you have to move on eventually. We Dutch will never forget though what we have done long time ago. History should never be forgotten, but forgive each other. If someone can't forgive and keep looking in the past, he / she will never move on.
A big hug from a Dutchman to you Indonesians, you people are great
Well said :)
Don't worry all the victim of the war crimes don't have any children and even if they did they won't remember the past atrocities that happens to their grandparents. Just kidding you guys are worst than nazis
Well, your royal family still rides around in a carriage with a picture of slaves from your colonies bowing down to your queen IN 2020 anyway. It's like, not only you don't feel sorry about it, but you're actually quite proud of it. So if you guys do apologize, I'm not sure we will buy it.
I wish there was a diplomatic difference between an apology and an acknowledgement. The Dutch government today did not colonize Indonesia and the Dutch people today did not exploit them. People shouldn’t have to apologize for things that their ancestors did. Yes the people who did colonize and exploit should be punished and yes they should apologize and be punished and the current government should acknowledge them. They should acknowledge what their ancestors and predecessors have done but they should not have to apologize, not not empathize because they should empathize and understand the past but what is done cannot be undone. And the modern people should not be held for things they could not have possibly changed as many of them did not exist.
Thanks for your comment Henrey.
henrey : good point to differentiate between acknowledgment and apology. That’s a good solution! Thank you!
The least thing a nation could do is apologize for their ancestors doing
Spain refuses to apologize to Mexico over colonial issues.
Dutch refrained in the beginning but then recently apologized to Indonesia. That's good.
God bless Netherland, I hold no grudge over past suffering inflicted upon colonial rules.
I Indonesian love Vincent van Gogh and Rembrandt.
I admire VOC, the greatest enterprise EVER. I love Netherland.
Looking forward to seeing close cooperation between Netherland and Indonesia, the likely future superpower are we LOL.
Oh wow... '-')
Interesting to read.
@@HistoryHustle I might have to add that this doesn't reflect 100% of opinion of Indonesian, however I can say that young generation tend to be more open and positive about relation with the Netherlands but also I witnessed some old conservative people are still holding their grudge against the Dutch and finding faults and averse to the Dutch. However they are few and far between.
Some conservative radios are still reliving and propagating old anti-Dutch sentiments.
As a Dutchman, a high five for you my Indonesian friend, may the past never repeat again :)
i’m Indonesian. i say we must apologize for all bad things we did in life and do whatever in our possession to ensure those things we did will never happen again. this is applied to all. thanks for sharing this.
i read and dig lots of history books about indonesia. the more i dig, the more it shake my understanding about the country history.
Thanks for your comment.
My great grandfather worked in the financial department for the rubber plantations. My grandfather grew up in Indonesia. He loved Indonesia and always gave us Dutch and Indonesian tradition here in Australia.
Interesting Shane, thanks for your reply!
In South Africa unfortunately we have nothing better to do than be stuck in the past and refuse to move forward. There is still a rejection of the 'Rainbow Nation' idea amongst many South Africans, with a lot of hatred coming from chauvinist Zulu and Xhosa leaders. Some have even begun indiscriminately labelling white people '1652s', after the year the Dutch first arrived in the country. So you could say we are living with 350 year old mindsets.
Ravi Master go see the Balkans where “1357” is the buzzword
Thanks for sharing. It's indeed interesting what happens in a former colony that was massivly inhabited by many Europeans long time ago.
@@HistoryHustle technically South Africa was never a Dutch colony, it was settled by many Dutch and some Germans. The different provinces were more like independent countries
@@jantschierschky3461 The cape definitely was a colony and a harbour to resupply the ships which were on their way towards Indonesia. Was it owned by the dutch state? No, it was owned by a corporation: VOC (united east india company). The later expansions of the boers, were indeed not really directly related to the netherlands in any way, but they spoke dutch and formed their republics after a dutch-esque model.
@@timonrolleman54 yes, but was more like a settlement. If you compare to the rest of ZA, very small area. European nations had many settlements, like in Japan, China etc. Cape was a staging area, for immigration. So you can't compare whole colonial take overs.
My grandpa and grandma fluent speaking netherland when they had been living years ago before they pass away. One thing i wan't to and it's a big question. Why does the language not to teaches in indonesian school from kindergarten till high school? Let dutch go to their homeland but let their language become a great culture for us indonesian people. We forgive the past but we don't hate the language. As we can see the south american doesn't hate spain and portuguese . Español and portuguese become national language . A love and peace from indonesia❤🇮🇩🙏
Thanks for sharing.
because of cultural and racist segregation by the Dutch. the Dutch language can only spoken by Dutch, Indos , and priyayi (nobility) people. So then and now we the indonesian see Dutch language as a distant language although many dutch words incorporated in indonesian
My personal opinion using Dutch language after independence will be judged as traitor. Less than 30 million people only use this tiny country language. Useless
Simple answer: revenge. We have high tension with netherland from 40s by japanese propaganda to 60s (nationalism). I think it needs because indonesia was like a baby in that time and need to build their own identity. And also we are not philippines who are proud their colonial heritage. We see it as shameful thing.
It was necessary at the time. Indonesia is hardly a monolith, and we don’t really have much of a unified history among our diverse groups of people, unlike, say, China with a history that stretches back thousands of years. We needed to form a new national identity since we couldn’t fall back on a nonexistent shared history.
Ik ben zelf geboren in een voormalige kolonie van Nederland. Mijn voorouders komen uit Africa, Azië en Europa. Veel mensen uit Suriname hebben nog wrok over het koloniale en slavernijverleden. Ik hoop zelf dat de samenleving zowel in Nederland als in Suriname meer inzicht en begrip zullen krijgen. We kunnen veel leren uit de geschiedenis. De geschiedenis mag zich niet herhalen. We zijn onlosmakelijk verbonden. We delen geschiedenis en familie. Een verontschuldiging zou wel op z’n plaats zijn. En daarmee samen ook meer kennis over elkaars cultuur en geschiedenis.
Bedankt voor je inzichtvolle rectie, Stacy!
You are pursuing a very mature and measured perspective on analyzing history to the fullest extent it can and should be.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Thanks for your response.
As Indonesian i really love this video, because i like learn history, since many school text book here in Indonesia explained like totally different stories, i truly love this logic explanation in this video so new generation can view a different side of stories from Dutch point of view, so far i know history thought me one thing : "history is full violence" no matter what.
keep up the good work man...
Greetings from Indonesia
Thank you very much for your reply!
Full disclosure: my paternal grandmother was born and raised in the Indies, as was my maternal grandfather. And my mother lived in New Guinea for a few years when she was very young, but they left a couple of years before the territory was surrendered. I have family history there but none military and there may accidentally be a drop of Indo blood in me, but we've never quite figured that out. So what I say below comes more from my own interest in this subject.
What makes me sad about the issue of apologies is that the Dutch government can't even apologise to its own soldiers who served in the KNIL but were never paid for the time when they were POWs of the Japanese (the "backpay" issue). In the end some cash was paid out to those still left alive, but not surviving relatives for example. Soon they'll all be dead and then the issue will have "gone away" as far as the government is concerned, which is very disgraceful.
Or apologies to the soldiers in general. They are pretty much seen as colonial killers nowadays but they only followed the orders that they were given by civil society. Although they were not literally spat on like some Vietnam vets, you get the distinct impression that the bourgeois Dutchman who had never been to the Indies did not really want to know what kind of violence was used to preserve the wealth that the Netherlands profited from as a whole. It's a very Dutch kind of hypocrisy.
Or apologies to the Indo-Europeans who had to leave Indonesia in successive waves and were given a cold welcome in the Netherlands and had to pay for every last penny. Compare that to what even illegal immigrants get today. But let's not open that can of worms or it will become a whole new polemic.
Or apologies to the Ambonese who were sent to the Netherlands, where the Dutch government promised it would make an effort to get them an autonomous state, which the Dutch government was not even in a position to promise. Apologies to a generation that was raised in camps (sometimes former German WWII camps), which led to some of the younger hotheads to commit terrorist acts during the 1970s (which I utterly denounce).
Or apologies to the Papuans who were annexed with a fake referendum and are now being exploited, colonised and displaced. Although the Dutch government at least tried to fight for New Guinea both diplomatically and militarily during the 1960s, our own German imported Prince Bernhard went behind their backs to get the Americans to pressure the Dutch government to let it go, so his corporate buddies wouldn't lose trade with Indonesia. I understand that the Dutch government did not try to maintain this last bit of the Indies. If we did, we would have been like Portugal in the 60s and 70s: sending off our young men to fight an endless colonial war while being condemned and isolated by the world. But does the Dutch king apologise for his family's actions in this matter? Does he lift even a finger for the Papuans? Does the Dutch government? No, only the Australians and some other Pacific states stand up for them. Most of the rest of the world just lets it happen, including deafening silence in the Netherlands.
In general I think apologies are not the right gesture. I prefer "Truth and Reconciliation": tell the truth about what happened from all sides. Mutually agree to let the past be the past. Keep any financial claims out of it. Unfortunately the Netherlands is always good at being a "guiding country" to the world, even in supplicating to those we colonised, but we don't even do right by those who did tie their fates to us in this period and were abandoned or mistreated.
Without staying silent about some human rights/minorities issues like West Papua (for which the Indonesian people should not be blamed collectively, since many of them don't even know about it), the Netherlands and Indonesia should be friendly and help each other. My impression is that Indonesia is a young, emerging, forward-looking country that does not want us to supplicate before them. In general nobody should have to supplicate for anyone. The idea that we should go on our knees for people because our grandparents once tried to force them on their knees seems to me a completely ignorant, zero-sum view of international relations. All nations should be able to stand up straight, look into each other's eyes, speak plainly and truthfully both about the areas where we can be friends and the issues on which we have different opinions.
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting to read.
I think that from the contemporary perspective we see that both colonialism and imperialism had multiple negative effects on local population. We also have to look at the situation from the point of view of the time those empires existed in and those were totally different from the world we live in. It is also crucial to remember that not all aspects of colonialism were negative. It is very important to talk about history in a honest way, but it seems like this type of moral condemnation is mostly focused on European nations. Does anyone espect an apology from the Mongols for the horrific acts done by them? Does anyone expect an apology from Turkey for white slave trade that lasted for closely five centuries and touched millions of Europeans? When we speak about Native Americans, we never talk about their acts of violence committed by them on sometimes peaceful settlers, of course Europeans committed many horrible acts and they were the ones not native to those lands. Whe should be able to apologize for our miss doing, but it can't be expected only from one side. The mainstream narration is focusing on pointing out the sins of Europeans and presenting them as inavaderes but we forget that during the long era of colonialism, Arbs were still in Iberia, Tatars were still in control of big part of eastern Europe and the Ottomans were going deeper and deeper into Europe, but the narration makes it seem like the European was always the conqueror and rest of the world consisted of his innocent victims.
I agree on the fact that not only Europeans can commit crimes, I am for instance fully aware through family history how Japanese imperialism treated other Asians. Europeans shouldn't be the only ones criticized for their crimes, but the thing is, the global impact of European colonization is huge, which contributes to that large focus on European nations. Consider how many countries have their independence from European countries, how many countries speak a European languages or how people were displaced through slavery or indenture labour. I don't want to disregard your whole argumentation, but do non-European nations have this much of an impact on the contemporary world?
@@kykale Not as big, of course, but there are many gray areas. For example Arab slave a trade lasted much longer than the transatlantic one and more people were enslaved by them and no one seems to even know about that fact. Tatar invasions had a great impact on Eastern Europe and millions of Europeans were simply "stolen", turned into slaves and then sold on slave markets. It is interesting, because numbers of those people are similar to the numbers of affricans that verse transported to North America. Crimea Khagnate was incorporated into Russia in 1786, that's raughly at the time of French Revolution. Almost 1/3 of Euroasian population died during the Mongol expansion, yet Ulan Bator is full of Chinghis Khan statues and streets named after him. Don't get me wrong, I belive that we should condemn many actions of European Nations, like what the Belgian did in Congo, or Germans did in Namibia, but the mainstream narration is simply not honest when it comes to discussing the overall history of the world.
Thanks for your insights, Jan, interesting as always!
True, it's not like there were no benefit at all to the colonization, but the europeans are pretty arrogant about it and are pointing at the wrong benefit. Civilization and technology is not the benefit of it (look at Thailand, never got invaded but modernized by itself), the benefit for Indonesia is that the archipelago was united as one big nation instead of being smaller weaker nation sprawling across the archipelago.
That's because unlike that period in history with the Mongols there are people who are alive today that remember those atrocities because they lived through them. Sure they may be old now but they deserve closure cause they had to witness their loved ones die before them. And the negative effects of colonialism exist even today in many societies and it has effected the social mores and beliefs of said society. Like many nations turnt homophobic because under colonial rule Europe instituted Christian based laws about sodomy and demonised homosexuality when say that society didn't have a concept of it before hand or how many societies judge that people of lighter skin color is better than their darker fellow citizens. Many people remember colonization, I met a Cameroonian man who lived during French colonization and a Gambian man who remembers British colonization. And the older generation in my family and community who are Vietnamese remembers French colonization like it was yesterday. I'm saying do it at least for the older generation.
I love your work. Cheers from sunny Ozstralia!!!
Thanks!
I am a Dutch-Indonesian, born of a Dutch Mother and Indonesian Father in 1947, so I feel strong loyalty to both countries. Overall, I think you made a very fair presentation, with one exception. You explained the context of the atrocities committed by the Dutch POWs held by the Japanese, but failed to give context to the atrocities committed by the Pramudas. Consider how the Pramudas felt. They had endured the injustices of colonization by the Dutch, then they had to endure the Japanese occupation. So it is understandable that given the chance, they lashed out at the Dutch. The one thing the Japanese conquest had shown them was that the "White Man" was not superior to Asians after all. Again, it is not excusable, but this helps understand why it happened. Also, my Dutch mother, who was not very politically aware prior to WWII, told me that the KNIL was generally held in low regard in The Netherlands. "Het schuim van de schuim" is how she described them ("the scum of the scum" for those of you who don't speak Dutch). I'd like to hear more from Stefan about the KNIL
Hello William,
Thank you for sharing your background and thoughts on this. Very interesting to read. I am aware that I didn't provide the context of the Indonesian youngsters well enough. This was basically due to the fact that the focus laid on the Dutch citizens themselve. Thank you for providing the additional insights. Actually I did make an episode about the KNIL a year ago. You can check it here:
ua-cam.com/video/2MlbRPjppOs/v-deo.html
I actually covered the Bersiap period on location in Surabaya a couple of years ago. You can check it here:
ua-cam.com/video/JuvAlItkF4A/v-deo.html
Good video again dude! I am going to watch all your indonesia videos and will comment afterwards.
Great: here's the playlist:
ua-cam.com/video/Od8mxfE0Ggk/v-deo.html
Dutch guy here. Dutch people have been raised with awareness of what our great-grandparents’ government did, and raised to be apologetic for it. After 70 years I think we’re done. How about some apologies for how the current Indonesian government is mistreating its own people?
This is the interesting debate of "they did stuff too and should apologize". Perhaps is might take a while before that happens. And in that sense the Dutch can be an example. Who knows.
Mistreating ? From what side? we are ok here, we can eat 3 times a day even more LOL
Stay relax brother
A Dutch friend of mine pointed me to this video after he brought a topic about the Dutch colonialism. As Indonesian, I totally agree with your point, especially about the crimes on both sides. In Indonesian student history book, at least during my time 15 years ago, the "Bersiap" period was never mentioned at any point. I only learned about this one when I grew up and read more material and understand the story from both sides. However, most typical Indonesian may not understand about the bad sides Indonesian did during the revolution war. Hence, some Indonesian were overly nationalistic and believed that the Dutch were the only bad guy.
But definitely, both sides have points. We were both torn down to pieces by the Japanese occupation, which was really severe compared to the colonial period. Even my grandmother said that the Japanese occupation was the worst of all during her lifetime. So, I am sure both sides were really tired and were just afraid to lose the revolution war. As an Indonesian, I certainly would like to see my government admit and also apologize to the war crimes that happened on the Indonesian side. Because from what I heard, many Dutch were also traumatized by the event.
But you are also somewhat correct. I think most Indonesian now are quite indifferent to what happened in the colonial era. You may attribute that to that we don't have the luxury to reminisce our past because we need to survive for the future. Perhaps we are just too busy with our current issues, which are more troublesome, than battling with whatever happened in the past. Considering that the common attitude in our country is not that good, such as lack of accountability, lack of critical thinking, corruption and so on, many of younger and educated generation to focus on recent issues, as we aim to change Indonesia towards a better nation.
I would even say that if there is an Indonesian who is still being very petty towards the Dutch because of history is childish. We must move on. But, we will never forget the past as it is the lesson for our future. Therefore, all past mistakes will never be repeated again.
Hello Gilang, many thanks for taking the time to write such an extensive response. I read it with great interest. All the best!
@@HistoryHustle You are welcome! I am glad my Dutch friend pointed to your channel. Your channel now becomes my collection of dinner-time UA-cam session! :D
Great to hear:)
There is absolutely no need for apology. There were many Dutch soldiers and civil servants who were sympathetic to the Indonesian cause (ie. Max Havelaar novel). Moreover, the Dutch aggressions were committed by Dutch ancestors, you are not your ancestors, you did not commit the act. You are not responsible for the decisions of your ancestors. The distinction must be drawn. Besides, apology does nothing. If like you said that Holland is a wealthy nation, and somehow feel "compelled" to help her former colony, then maybe she can give aide to Indonesia (which she has stopped giving starting this year, unfortunately).
I think acknowledgement and stating of historical facts in the history books, in both countries, is the way to go.
Thanks for your insights!
'I think acknowledgement and stating of historical facts in the history books, in both countries, is the way to go.'
That's quite ironic, considering indonesian books themselves whitewashed of their own atrocities pretty often.
@@alamagoseniora8128 no, you are wrong, you dont inherit the sin of your ancestors
Nope... I won’t apologise for anything I didn’t do, and I don’t expect anyone else to either. My father is English, my mother is Dutch, and I wouldn’t expect either of them to apologise for things they didn’t do, or for past colonialism. And I feel the same way about nations. Should Italy apologise for the occupation of England between 40BC to 400 AD? Should the Bantu tribes apologise for their expansion into Southern Africa which pushed the indigenous bushman people into the arid areas? It’s bullshit. Learn it, teach it, but don’t apologise for it.
So why you forced Germans to apologize and pay all the damages?
Terra Preta I haven’t forced the Germans to do anything. But if someone finds stolen art, or stolen cash in a Swiss bank account, that can be traced to the original owner, or to their living relatives, then why would you not return it?
@@effortlessly We are not speaking about you in person, but as nation. Its kinda hypocrite that Dutch condemned for what nazi germany did, but made thousand excuses for the invasion of Indonesia in 1945-1949.. Germany won respect because its addressing ww2 crimes, apologized and the most important thing is telling the true history for young generation to learn.
@@effortlessly FYI Dutch took 230 kg of gold, 7000 kg of silver, and many jewelries from Lombok Sultanate in 1892-96. The Sultanate still there and no one gives back those treasure to the original owner or relatives.. LMAO
I believe apologizing can create respect. On a personal level I understand people don't feel responsible.
Ooohh Stefan, please tell history from both perspective not from your side only.. Talking abt wealth, Dutch plundered 230 kg of gold, 7000 kg of silver and many jewelries from Lombok Sultanate. Do you want discuss abt this?
Please check ua-cam.com/video/ZIToIMrfYSw/v-deo.html
what is really needed is not just verbal apologies. but must be officially acknowledged through the Official Documents of the state. because so far the Netherlands has not recognized independence on August 17, 1945 but according to the 1949 Round Table Conference agreement. not only did the Netherlands have to pay war reparations and surrender all Dutch companies formed since colonialism to the Indonesian people
Sukarno nationalized all remaining Dutch companies in 1957 when the NHM became what is now Bank Mandiri, the KPM what is now the PELNI, the BPM became Pertamina and many more.
ky it's not enough compared to forced planting, eviction, artifact robbery etc. even though the entire Amsterdam property was given to the people of Indonesia it was not enough.
Doesn't that go a bit too far Ikhbat?
Should britain apologize to 50 countries they colonized?
Depends on the country. For India yes. For Canada no. I went to Canada and everyone seems to love the British but hate the French. (Though to be fair I never went to Quebec it's probably the other way round there.)
Luxembourgish Empire yea because “everyone” isn’t the people who lived there it’s former British colonists lol the European colonies in the Americas had way more settlers and one one (Uruguay i believe) was ever given back to the indigenous population, for example Dutch New Amsterdam became British New York instead of Wampanoag Manhattan, unlike the Dutch East Indies which was won back to the Indonesian people and all the Dutch left. If the Dutch Settlers had formed a new state, then you would see them having a similar relationship to the Netherlands that British ex-colonies have to Britain. But Britain has plenty of countries that fit both examples, ie British Kenya was not taken over by British Settlers while British South Africa was taken over by its British and Dutch settlers, meanwhile British Southern Rhodesia was initially taken over by its British settlers but later was taken over by the Zimbabwe natives.
Don't know what British attitude is towards this.
@@TheLocalLt I am only exaggerating... I only spoke to probably like 10 people in Canada...
@@HistoryHustle Neither do I.
i am a syrian refugee in the Netherlands and i am studying global law at the university of tilburg.
your videos are so informative and neutral and your fleuncy in delivery is so accurate.
thanks alot for all the efforts you put in your videos so we can learn from you.
i have to say as well, despite the netherlands is a foreign land to me but this country has and still giving me a life and support more than i can say.
yes, things are not perfect, the country goes into some ups and downs but in general, much respect to the country and dutch people in general lil bit hard to understand but still one of the most open minded and tolerant people i ever met.
much love goes to Rotterdam, Feyenoord is here.
Many thanks for your reply. All the best with your studies!
@@HistoryHustle thank you sir its my honor
Well, every event has positive and negative things. Being an Indonesian, especially being a Javanese, some people may be accepted it as it was. So, some people will rather see our future together than trapped in our past.
It is the time to move on.
Thanks for your honest message.
that is a great mentality to have
Incredible insight....especially on the backstory...love your channel...
Many thanks!
Thank you to give me a new sight of our history. Many Indonesians did not understand the history of their country well. Indonesian people do not get proper historical education of our nation because the politics after were full of lies til these days.
Thanks for your message! What kind of lies?
@@HistoryHustle There are many figures who have been eliminated from their roles in the era of BERSIAP. There are also figures who are not told that at that time participated in KNIL or PETA and so on.
@@HistoryHustle Also not clearly explained the role of the USA in the process of transfer sovereign.
"many"
@@HistoryHustle Basically it's bad history education, a lot of it was influenced by the new order.
Monetary compensation would be in order considering the hundreds of years worth of daylight robbery committed during colonial era. Not to mention Indonesia actually paid off 90% of debt incurred by Dutch Indies colonial govt from 1949-1956, as some sort of extortion money to get the Dutch acknowledgement of independence.
I didn't know about the 90% of debt incurred by Dutch Indies colonial government. Interesting, please explain.
Its part of the 1949 Roundtable Conference decisions. Basically the Dutch demanded Indonesia to pay for the debt incurred by Dutch Indies govt to Netherlands govt, which was mostly used to finance the suppression of the Republic.
@@purnomor it was like the same did to india (must pay to britain), or mexico (to spain), or south korea (to japan)
No such thing, in fact the Brits normally gave monetary aid to its colonies who go independent. Not to mention the Brits actually gave independence mostly voluntarily. The Dutch only acknowledged independence of Indonesia with great reluctance due to American pressure bur left behind great debt burden to cripple the new state and lessen Dutch financial loss from Indo independence.
@@purnomor you do realise we financially aided you right?
Minta maaf atau tidak ya itu urusan anda,
Meminta maaf ya bagus
Tidak meminta maaf pun tidak apa-apa,
Lagipula itu adalah kejadian masa lalu, kita harus menuju masa depan yang lebih baik, tentu tanpa mengabaikan sejarah.
Dan perihal periode bersiap,
Kebrutalan yang terjadi bukan sepenuhnya dari pihak nasionalis Republik.. Para pemuda, laskar rakyat dan kelompok bersenjata liar yang tidak terorganisir oleh republik sangat mustahil untuk diatur oleh republik yang usianya masih belia, Jangankan Untuk Masalah Ketertiban, aparat keamanan saja masih belum terstruktur baik.
Republik memang "menguasai" Indonesia, tapi hukum "siapa yang kuat dia yang berkuasa" masih berlaku di daerah-daerah.
Apalagi meningkatnya para "garong" ditengah revolusi.
Saya tidak akan sok pintar dengan berkata bahwa "banyak orang Indonesia tidak mengerti sejarah"
Hmmm..
"Apologizing or not is your concern,
Apologizing is good
It's not okay to apologize,
After all it is a past event, we must lead to a better future, of course without ignoring history.
And regarding the preparation period,
The brutality that occurred was not entirely from the Republican nationalists. The youth, the people's army and illegal armed groups that were not organized by the republic were impossible to regulate by a young republic, Never mind the problem of Order, the security forces alone were not well structured.
The Republic indeed "controls" Indonesia, but the law "who is strong he is in power" still applies in the regions.
Moreover, the increasing "robber" in the middle of the revolution.
I would not be so smart as to say that "many Indonesians do not understand history"
Interesting points you make here, thanks for sharing.
@@HistoryHustle Are you sure that's the correct translation?
I dont know, that "Garong" can be translated .. 😅
what do I know: "Garong" is "GAbungan ROmusha NGamuk"
the ex-Romusha criminals
but it's true they are "robbers".
@@HistoryHustle I'll give you a clearer translation : (although your translation was able to capture the essence of it anyway)
To apologize or not is your business
Apologizing is good,
But it's fine even if you don't
They are past events anyway, we need to look to a better future, without ignoring history
And about the bersiap period
The brutality that happened weren't fully from the nationalist, the pemudas (it means young people), people's legion, and other wild armed groups that were not organized by the republik could not have possibly been controlled by the republik that was just born, nevermind keeping the public order, the authority weren't even properly organized.
The republik does have control of Indonesia, but the law where the strong rule was still happening everywhere in the archipelago
Further inflamed by the rise of garong in the middle of the revolution (ex criminals)
I will not try to pretend I'm smart by saying that a lot of Indonesians don't understand history
@Cakrawala uuy apanya yg pahit? emg lu hidup jaman penjajahan? kalo yg merintahin penjajahan masi idup, gw jg mau dia minta maaf ama kakek gw yg ud mati, tapi mereka smua dah mati, apalagi di pihak belanda nya, trus apa dan siapa yg mau minta maaf, orang raja yg skrg aja ga terlibat ama VOC... anda aja yg trlalu dramatis
It's more than about forgiveness.
According to an article in Kompasiana,
"Setelahnya perundingan terus berlanjut, akhirnya tercapai kesepakatan. Di mana Belanda bersedia menyerahkan kedaulatan Indonesia pada tanggal 27 Desember 1949 dengan catatan Indonesia harus membayar utang pada Belanda sebesar 6,5 miliar Gulden."
If the Dutch apologize, they may have the obligation to repay as well.
I see.
As Indonesian i always being curious on my own question "Should Indonesia apologize to east timor for three decades of colonization"
Good question.
As an Australian, I understand the legacy of colonisation is complex. I don't think the Netherlands needs to apologise for colonising Indonesia, but it needs to acknowledge the consequences of this and should apologise for certain aspects, such as atrocities during the war of independence. An apology may seem symbolic, but can make a huge impact to those affected. It is within living memory for a lot of people.
Thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts.
Echt heel goed gedaan hoe je het licht van meerdere kanten hebt laten schijnen.
Bedankt! :)
I am from India and I am all for a token apology to start with, by any and all foreign exploiters period.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
Should modern day Egypt apologize for the working conditions of the laboring class while working on the great pyramids?
I see. However, this is much much longer ago.
Pfft isnt influenced modern day,on other hand western colonization is influenced to this modern day,
Dude...egypt pyramids are from thousands of years ago....This is only 80 years ago....some of fhe victims son and daughter still alive and feel first hand the killings and warcrimes......
Voor nog meer context en achtergronden -zeker voor wat betreft de periode vlak vóór het eindigen van WW2 en de Polotionele Acties- is het wellicht interessant om ook kennis te nemen van een artikel in Trouw, gepubliceerd 5 aug. 1995 onder de titel "voor Nederland kwam de Vrede veel te vroeg". Ik vond het een onthutsend relaas.
Interessant, dank voor de tip, Irene. Ik heb trouwens video's gemaakt over dit onderwerp, zie: ua-cam.com/video/Od8mxfE0Ggk/v-deo.html
@@HistoryHustle dank je wel! ik heb me nu op jouw kanaal geabonneerd en zal zeker gaan kijken naar je video's. Ik was gisteren (10.3) erg onder de indruk -bij Op1- van Yvonne Keuls, toen zij heel helder verwoordde welke groepen in haar optiek zeer zeker ook een excuus te goed hebben namens Nederland. Vooral de repatrianten van Indisch/Nederlands bloed. Zo schandalig als zij zijn behandeld, ook na aankomst hier in Nederland. Ik ben hier geboren maar ik voel nog steeds de pijn van mijn moeder en grootmoeder..
Self harassment is really a problem in the Netherlands. I like your approach of history to view all aspects of the colonisation of Indonesia. To apologise is for me a strange action. I as a Dutchmen i have an opinion about the colonisation but i do not feel sorry for it. Because my generation is born after the colonisation period. Also the majority if Indonesian people are also born after this period. That mean the majority of the Dutch people have nothing done wrong to the majority of the Indonesian people. Saying sorry is therefor strange. You sorry for something you did not do. That is strange! If your grandpa is a serial killer why should you as a grand child have to apologise? And if so, does that mean that all generations after me have also to apologise to the generations of the victims? When does the duty of apologise ends??? Its a stupid thing. And it has no value for both sides because both sides does not really know for exactly what. We as generations after the colonisation period have knowledge of the history but that does not mean we know what it was because we did not have the experience of that live in that period. Also those people who lived in that period lived with different norms and values. In the middle ages the punishments of crime should now not be accepted. So you have to take also in account that the norms and values of today can not be extrapolated to the past. You have to observe the difference between them.
Of course to investigate and objective history studies should not be avoided about this subject but this must also with a companied with the not so dark pages of history or even with shiny pages of history. Like the archives of the VOC which are very valuable for the history of Indonesia and also in Asia as a whole. Also the archives and maps and agreements of borders and sea's done by the Dutch indies are now very valuable for Indonesia for their territorial claims and disputes. Now very relevant with the expansion of China's influences in Asia...
Thanks for your extensive insights.
Im Indonesia, I don't think Dutch should apology for every formal meeting. 'I care about tomorrow not Yesterday'
👍
Thankyou i know that you just want to give a better explanation about your country bad thing act during Indonesia National Revolution(1945-1949).perhaps the best thing to do is waiting for the investigation that Will be done on 2021,and after that Indonesia and the Netherlands should sit together in a formal meeting to end this dispute once for all and acknowledging the mistake that Indonesia and Dutch do in the 1945-1949 period and forgiving each other and closing the book about this past.so the two nations can walk for a better future without any regretion and sins in the past.
By the way Im Indonesian.
Thanks for your reply. And yes, when the investigation is done I will adress this issue once again. Cheers!
@@HistoryHustle okay.you are a good man sir.im enjoyed with your historical content that you Made.
I hope you can create more historical content.especially the other side aspect about Dutch colonialism in Indonesia(1600-1942).
As far as I know Dutch colonisation usually was done with quite a soft touch compared to the practices of other colonisers. Many a regional chieftain in Indonesia was allowed to remain ruler in his own territory though he had to be a subservient to the Dutch coloniser and deliver on whatever they demanded. But it wasn't all one way; The Dutch also tried to improve the lives of the population through healthcare and education.
An apology would be absurd if the party you are demanded to apologize to will not even recognize or admit the atrocities they have been involved in.
I'm not sure Roy. I think the British were mostly "better" colonizers than the Dutch who carried out lots of repressions. Think you can level the Dutch with the French. Yet, I need to do further study for this.
@@HistoryHustle
It has been quite some time ago I read about Dutch History including colonial history. What does stuck to my mind I'd that for Dutch traders maximising profits came before pride. Maintaining a standing private colonial army was very expensive and if that army could be minimised by bribing local chieftains profits could be increased.
The same willingness to swallow pride is what allowed Dutch traders to be much more successful than other European traders when it came to Japan. Simply by showing deference to the Shogun by kneeling before him the won preferred status
Its one of best indo-dutch historical content y'tbe chnnl from real dutch people
👍
Anything Economically viable in Indonesia today is thanks to old Dutchie :) The Dutch invented Indonesia, see where they stand now.....
The Dutch in a way brought Indonesia together under the flag of the Dutch East Indies to remain a unified country after independence.
apologizing will not bring back the past, but will at least remove the psychological burden from both countries. My grandfather was one of the fighters in the Dutch colonial era. When I was kid, my grandfather used to tell me that he had a constant fear of being shot. he used to always hide in the hole that he dug by himself. he covered the hole with tree trash and hid in it.
Many thanks for sharing this.
I would like to visit the Netherlands someday, some of my family moves there 😔
Cool!
Europe without assistance from Indonesia may now be a developing country. be grateful that Indonesia has a big heart towards you.
Some Indonesians view it that way yes.
Daring subject. Stefan....good job! Discussions brings matters further and better in perspective. We dutch can be evil as mankind? Is current Indonesia a colony of its own? Draft a farmer son, ship him to a warm country where he sleeps badly. One day the are ordered.to go on patrol and try to find a missing Dutch soldier. After a few hours they find HIM.....lying in a ditch. His body badly mutalized. Just a kid of barely 20......lying in a ditch....an uncle of my Mother told me the story.....the uncle the farmer Son from the North of the Netherlands...honger winter......nazi occupation......and few Years later .....they shot at you......you find your friend badly mutalated. No body is right where every body is wrong. ............. but one generation later my brother Marries a indonisian girl has two kids and lives happly... ever after. ❤️ Look back but live forwards.... zoals eerder aangegeven uitstekend werk Stefan!
Thanks for your comment and sharing this part of your family's history.
Its not a question..its a must !!
Please explain.
Without the Dutch the same thing would have happened, or worse, over there.
Overall the Dutch presence was a net plus for the area.
I'm not going to apologise and pay for things that happened decades or centuries before I was born.
No.
But rich Holland still living off the fruits of centuries of plundering of nations which to this day are poor, underdeveloped and economically oppressed. (The same of course also applies to England, France, etc.)
We can only speculate what would've happened if they Dutch didn't colonize the region. Looking at other European colonizers I think the Dutch were as bad as the French and worse than the British. The British didn't wage a war over Malaysia to keep it (although they took part in the Emergency but that's another story).
What .. ? Do you know what VOC are ?..
Agree when you say to look at history from all aspects, all side. As the next generation, we want history to be shown as it is without anything to be covered up even if it's embarrassing. That is important as lesson and learn for the next generation and friendship in the next future.. This is a tough challenge for any country's politicians
Thanks for sharing your insights on this.
I'm curious about the map, especially west papua part. Background
Very peculiar indeed! I couldn't find a date of fabrication of the map. It looks fairly modern considering the material.
Looking at all aspects of history is a historian’s job. Apologizing for atrocities under the Dutch king’s/government’s watch is their job. Being open minded, welcoming and looking forward to a better future is all peoples’ job. Everyone do your job.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
No way we have to apologise for the colonisation! If the Dutch didn't do it an other west-Europese country would have colonized it. The only thing i think we have to apologise for is for the atrocities that happened throughout the centuries. If the Dutch haven't colonized Indonesia and other parts of the world, there wouldn't be a Netherland.
I agree with you on the fact that if the Dutch didn't colonize Indonesia another country would've done that. Heck, the Portugueze had East Timor and the British briefly had Sumatra (and Java before that). I'm not so sure if the Dutch did not colonize the East Indies the Netherlands wouldn't exist today. See, the Act of Abjuration (Plakkaat van Verlatinghe) in 1581 (or "declaration of independence from Spain") was signed before the Dutch expanded their trade. On the flipside, because of the costly war with Spain that was already ongoing the Dutch were forced to make trade and colonize. Very interesting what-if scenario because there are so many variables.
@@HistoryHustle it wasn't only the colonization of the East Indies , also the West Indies was important for the Netherlands to exist. The Dutch Republic gained such good money from these territories and the silver fleet to prolonge the war against Spain. Otherwise it was lost i think.
I am curious...based on your videos focusing on the War period, can you contextualize, say, Nazi or Soviet atrocities in the same way you did with the Dutch in Indonesia? For me, I can rationalize and almost understand the Soviets' activities in eastern Europe, but the Wehrmacht and SS activities in eastern Europe can't be explained the same way as you explain this postwar, post-traumatic period for the Dutch in Indonesia.
Good question. I believe everything can be contextualized. The question is: with what goal? If the goal is to white wash events I am against it. If it is to provide a full picture of the story I understand it. It differs per subject. If you want to understand why ordinary men went on a killing spree contextualizing is a must. If you want to write about the victims and facts it is not always of need I think. Again, you can always provide context, but your goal should be made clear.
Should lions apologize for hunting?
Please explain.
@@HistoryHustle At the time The Netherlands were one of the most developed and dominant cultures in the world. They expanded, conquered other territories, carried their develpments elsewhere. Nature demands it. It is part of evolution.
Addressing a country's past trauma and atrocities is always a touchy subject. On one hand I firmly believe that one is not guilty for the sins of their ancestors but on the other, when discussing colonialism or slavery it is especially important to understand that the scars from these actions have long lasting and traumatic effects on the victims. This is one of the big focus points on discussion of slavery in the US. I guess it comes down to what good is an apology if there is no work towards change or helping the communities most effected. Also as you mentioned what do the people of Indonesia want, perhaps they don't care about some bloaks in Europe or perhaps a formal acknowledgement would be appreciated and seen as a step towards improving relations with Indonesia.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Zou u ook een filmpje kunnen maken over de Molukken?
Zie hier:
ua-cam.com/video/EjcNA06DSbI/v-deo.html
@@HistoryHustle Bedankt
Great documentary guy!
Thank you!
nope they dont
Please explain.
@@HistoryHustlea lot of other countrys, like Spain, Portugal, England an France also had colonies. What im trying to say is that almoste every one had slaves and colonies, its was normal in that time
Neteherland's King absolutely had apologize to Indonesian government and peoples in formal visit on 2019 in the past of his colony and all of have done of his country in three and half centuries in colonialism, conquest and crime in Indonesian archipelago
I see. Thanks for your message.
How about Indonesia gives west papua its independence first...
I see.
If that's the case, same gonna happen to spain (catalonia), america (texas), canada (quebec), china (hongkong, tibet, xinjiang, inner mongolia), india and pakistan (kashmir), UK (scotland and northern ireland), israel (palestine), many more
I mean I can talk in detail a whole lot more about west papua to counter this, but I'm not sure this is the place to do it since this video is talking about something else
@@adinnaikhwani6255 well people can vote in certain countries to cecede. scotland and northern ireland, catalonia quebec can all vote.
texas cannot since we already remember what secceding from the union will do. not sure about the asian countries.
honestly we indonesians don't really care that much anymore. i mean yeah there was messed up shit, we should learn from that history, if you wanna apologize for that then yeah sure go ahead but we honestly don't really care for any apology, no one really cares about it, we have more important things to focus on.
i find it pretty ironic that i see some dutch peeps going crazy over "DARK HISTORY NEVER FORGET WE OWE THE INDONESIANS AN APOLOGY" while we've moved on from that, we don't really need an apology, we have better things to work on now.
Thanks for your reply.
Indonesia would never exist the ways it maped today if the Netherland or British didn't came to colonize them.
the borneo island would never splited to 4 country region.
like it is today.
and even if they the colonizer didn't came,
some one else will.
the japan,
and many more potental colonizer.
and even if the Europe didn't came, the war and chaos is still happening in those region ,
anyway.
Perhaps, interesting but complicated what-if scenario.
We forgive, and just remember not to make mistake twice, because we will fight to the last blood, like our grandfather.
MERDEKA!
Hope it won't happen again.
No. They should ackmowledge what they did instead. And pay compensation.
No, not a penny should be paid nor should there be any apologies. This generation did not participate in the cruelties between 1600 and 1949. I do not expect this generation of Germans to apologize for WW II and I do not expect Spanish people to apologize for the Inquisition and cruelties during the 80 years war. However we must be aware that our ancestors were not saints and did horrible things outside Europe.
@@adema1978 Your opinion.
@@luxembourgishempire2826 Not only is it my opinion, if I were the PM of the Netherlands it would be my policy.
@@adema1978 Dutch colonized Indonesia and refused to acknowledge Indonesian independence (17 August 1945). Then somehow Indonesia were made to pay "debts" to the Netherland until 2003. Does that sound like you don't ever get any advantage from the colonization? Think again :)
Pay compensation or investing money to develop the country? What do you think?
As someone from a country who did not colonize and never got colonized, I think the dutch government or royal house should issue an apology to the generation still living for past cruelty and misery which was rooted by the colonialisation. A symbolic gift, like supporting homes for the elderly or something else useful like granting x students per year the possibility for a paid exchange year in the Netherlands would also be a nice thing. But I don't think the Dutch have to apologise to the country, only to the people from this time periode who still live.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
my great grandfather was shot dead by dutch soldiers in front of his house in the 1947s. he was just a civilian, the dutch soldiers mistook him for the man they were looking for because he had the same name as the person they were looking for.
My grandmother, who was orphaned when she was a child, didn't know whats to be done, because she is just a rural people who dont even understand Indonesian (malay) and can't read and write. my grandmother is now 80yo.
Sorry to hear that.
Unfortunately that happens a lot during the wars where soldiers mistook a civilian as a soldier
the privilege of "looking back" is real.
I believe so.
it's been a long long time ago, even for the second generation of indonesian after dutch colonies, they no longer think of it as a big deal... we forgive but we wont forget, that's it
Fair enough :)
My grandfather was Indonesian National Army Liutenant during Indonesian war of Independence. He used to told us about what Belanda do to prisoner of war. it's not pretty tough, but my grandfather never hates Belanda. His and his friends wish from Belanda is only one, FOR BELANDA ACKNOWLEGDE INDONESIA INDEPENDENCE IN 17 AUGUST 1945, that's it. We as Indonesian was taught not to have a grudge, let bygones be bygones.
Forgive but not forget, yes there's Atrocity that was done by both sides but what's the point talking about that? apologies to whom? lot of our elder was already dead by now. And their children also didn't want us to talk about it. Why? because war of Independence was sacred to our elder, they didn't wish us as their children have a grudge, that will impact negativity on our psychology, they want us to remember our elder that fight for Independence as hero that even Belanda treated them horribly they're not giving up, to make Belanda Recognize that Indonesian was Independent.
They themselves doesn't want Apology what they want is Acknowledgement, we are not weak people and we don't wish to be one. For myself Apologizing is act of insult towards our heroes, thus why we didn't ask for it. BECAUSE THAT WAS THE BIGGEST INSULT that Belanda will give to us.
Rather than Apologize why not Reconsiliate? why not Increase coorporation between us? like we always do. Let's have peace with our past and let's move foward. For good or worse we have walk together for 350 years. We shouldn't forget about that, to my Belandas brother we don't hate you, we don't wan't any apology. We welcome you to come as friend's and brother's
peace out
Thanks for your reply.
As an indonesian,i guess they should apologise and live well and support each other
Fair point. Thanks for sharing.
No country is without history or war including Indonesia itself ( Western Guinea and Ambon) up to today.
More important is that nations respect their own people and eachother : the Kings official state visit is showing to the people of Indonesia that they are important and they are well respected ( otherwise the King and Queen would not even come ).
And let's not forget that Indonesia is receiving for over 60 years ( billions euro's in total) money for development support ( ontwikkelingssamenwerking) being a so-called toppriority country and this would not be the case if Indonesia was not respected by the dutch government: now and in the past since their indepence !
Thanks for your additional information, Fred.
After King Willem apologized for "the excessive violence", I think the next step would be recognizing August 17, 1945 as our independence day in the spirit of reconciliation. December 27, 1949 isn't celebrated as anything here anyway.
I am not sure whether this already is recognized. Again, if doing so it would mean illegalizing the Dutch campaign and that's gonna be tricky for Dutch politicians I believe.
@@HistoryHustle
I know the dilemma. Instead of lip service by the king, this is more impactful to forge a stronger bond forward. I know many Dutch politicians fear potential lawsuits, reparations, etc. and angering war veterans. However as many Indonesian diplomats often said: "We want to move forward and not looking back." I think many Indonesian people share the same sentiment. Forgiven not forgotten.
Of course we don't want the future Dutch generations educated with whitewashed history. Let's treat Indonesian reoccupation the same as Nazi occupation in Netherland. "Politionale actie" bullshit should be taught properly. It's not a police action if you do it by drafting young gullible men (and former SS Dutch) soon after the great war and your homeland recently liberated from Nazi. They were soldiers not policemen.
Netherland in some Island : murderous Monster
Netherland in europe: road bump
More or less yes.
Great presentation. But there's something I want to ask. If Netherland is a wealthy country, then why did it come to another country for colonization?
Thanks for watching. The Netherlands is wealthy now. Its wealth started by trading (and later colonizing) other countries.
Very well presented and balanced story Stephan.
I think for all racism, atrocity, mistreatment and all bad thing in the past.. We should be sorry for that.
But we are generation that neither do nor become victim of those events.
I think apology from His majesty King Willem-Alexander is a good act and much needed action to better of our relation.
Thanks for your reply, Ahmad!
I think the Dutch should apologize although i'm not hellbent on you doing it, we can live without it, if you do it you will show your sincerity in closing some history of conflict in indonesia. and by apologizing i mean not only for police action after 1945 but also for the period before that.
Because if you would look deeper into the relation between the dutch and indonesia, Aceh sultanate (now part of indonesia) is among the earliest, if not the first, who acknowledge the dutch republic independence movement against spain which led by Maurice of Orange. In 1602 Aceh sultanate sent a delegation to the dutch led by Tengku Abdul Hamid who even died there and buried in middelburg.
So as an acehnese, if someone ask me about the dutch colonies in indonesia, i dont know what to say as i take this as a betrayal on the highest level.
I understand your point. I did not know about Aceh recognizing the Dutch Republic. Thanks for sharing. I don't know what their motivations were for doing this. We can be critical about this. Since Dutch ships already sailed to the Indies (end of the 15th century I believe) it might be done out of goodwill to get favorable trade agreeements. Do notice that Dutch attempth to take over Aceh started in the second half of the 19th century. In other words: that is around 350 years later. It's kinda the same as saying the as a Dutch person I think Spain should pay us instead of the other way around (because of EU regulations) because of the Spanish terror in the 15th and 16th century.
Apart of that I do find the way the Dutch handled revolts in Aceh extremely brutal and it's sad that so many people from Aceh were killed.
@@HistoryHustle you are welcome, its my joy that at least one more person knows about this information as i find this information rarely known and discussed.
Maybe my mistake in not elaborating about apologizing, for me the most inportant part of apoligizing is recognition, then after that you need to show the good faith/intention to follow up the aplogy. Of course the follow up step is not limited to paying, rather on how you show the sincerity.
And lastly, as i find that the way you are explaining in the video that you are not trying to whitewash the brutalities that the dutch perform in the indonesia. You still need a careful way of explaining thing such as using "revolts" as it could show that you already placed yourself (or dutch) on a higher ground. That is because the Sultan of Aceh never surrendering the authority to the dutch, he give the authority back to the acehnese as a whole and acehnese still fighting for their country.
I know war could be sensitive topic to discuss as it could easily offend people, so i tip my hat to you for your effort and stand. Hope you could do better in the future... sorry for the long reply.
I understand, thanks for sharing.
Duh... What kind of question is that. They're not going to bring back the slaughtered, tortured and enslaved... The least that they could do is recognize it and apologize
Fair enough.
as an Indonesian I'd like to say very simple solution to all this, "sing wis yo wis", if all of you understand this simple phrase, all complicated perspective both indonesia and dutch will disapear
Please explain.
Maybe you can put Aceh Oorlog in there, the war cost 15-20 millions gulden each year and i think that is one of the longest war Dutch ever experience
I did cover that war a while ago on location in case you're interested:
ua-cam.com/video/FfAot39z39I/v-deo.html
My grandmother was a daughter of Dutch businessman who travelled from Amsterdam to East Indies.Later she married an Indonesian Army (my grandfather) during the war of independence... Her parents and sisters went back to Netherlands after Indonesia was proclaimed. Meanwhile she stayed in Indonesia, because she love my grandfather and didn't want to part with him.
Even though she stayed in Indonesia until this day we still keep the Dutch family name as our family name, it's Vanderburgh.
I still remember when she was angry, she always said things in dutch, meanwhile i just laughed because i didn't understand back then when i was still young.Sometimes she sang a lot of songs in Dutch and tell how things had changed a lot. Rest in Peace, my grandmother, Tregreida Vanderburgh.
Thanks for sharing.
Indonesia's curriculum never told me about those murders during the bersiap period.
Thank you for sharing. I was aware of that.
It doesn't matter about your own justification. But your country did in past is "cruel".
I'm not justifying my country's actions of the past. It was indeed cruel.
European always make justification about what they did. Actually it is simple to answer. Do you think what you did to asian and african, the imperialism and colonialism are RIGHT or WRONG? Do you think what Nazi did to you is RIGHT or WRONG? Dont talk about Tartars, Romans, Ottoman. Its another cases