Yeah tooth and nail production is still very good. The debut sounded better though. Under Lock and Key had great production but sounds a little too polished. Back For The Attack sounds deep fried, what the hell happened to George's guitar tone there?
George was using Randall's amps. Nice dirt and punch ,but moving to ULAK , Lynch was back on plexis again , and that was one of his best sounds since the first record. Warm, amp punch , but tooth and nail is killer.
Just to be obsessive. Lynch mobs 2nd album, had wide open production. Like those good dokken albums. Love wicked sensation, the guitar ,and surprisingly,the vocals.... A good wide open , sound all around. Lynch sounds like wide open and free, May have been Marshalls, I don't t know but the vocals were great also.....!🎸🇺🇸 Kept forgetting that I like the second LM disc ,cuz it was unlike their first. Both are great work.💯
George is articulate but he seems difficult to deal with on some level , he absolutely made a good point here about worthless producers who take all of the credit when someone else did all of the heavy lifting
george is a Good Guitar Player, NOT a genius, seems like he can't keep a Band together, and in 2017 said some Dumb political stuff and had NO idea what he was Talking about & Now he has a patreon? OMG
@@MetalHeart8787 Most bands don't stay together, lol. Lynch Mob is essentially a club band. There's very little money so of course no one is going to stay long. How many members have been in Dokken BTW? 25, 30? What does him having a lot of bandmates or a political comment from six years ago that you didn't like have to do with how a good guitar player he is?
@@MetalHeart8787 ....If the other members of a band cannot be dealt with/don't want to do what needs to be done...NO ONE, can keep them together. You may THINK you can control other people, but that is actually pretty rare. And there is the fact that anyone worth a damn, does not WANT to CONTROL other people.
George sounds way more clear and detailed about what happened to me, where as Tom was kind of vauge. Whether or not George was being a dick to Tom doesn't really matter as far as the music goes. His opinion on what a producer means to a band vs the engineer is spot on, it takes way more skill and experience as an engineer to get the right sound on to record vs a producer sitting around giving his opinion on what sounds good and what doesn't. Engineers deserve way more credit than they do.
@@daveg4236 Producers are like the middle managers that go to a conference and come back with a bunch of buzzwords and productivity drops for awhile until the buzzword effect begins to fade.
@@daveg4236 no they are not, a lot of these guys do not know crap about a mixing board. The engineers do a lot of the heavy lifting, there are producers who definitely earn their keep ala Max Norman, Mutt lange, Bob Rock...Kevin Churko though he needs to stop writing songs for the artists
@@pinkyellowblue007 well if you're familiar with recording in a professional studio it doesn't matter how good you can PLAY guitar, if your a crappy songwriter or arranger producers the professional one's at least are highly experienced in all aspects of constructing a song.. Producers and engineers are the ones that know how to translate that and capture it and whatever format that may be to sound good. It's kinda hard to explain.
Yes we've seen the numerous shit shows Lynch has put on for the fans over the years. Noodling all over the place, phrasing that would make a schizophrenic blush, and even sometimes just mailing it in. Lynch left unrehearsed and unfettered in the studio would have been a disaster for Dokken and Lynch's solo career. However, when Lynch is well rehearsed and produced, almost nobody can touch him.
George sounds pretty clear now and has wisdom that only time can produce. Youth, substances and pressure may have been part of those past experiences that are suspect.
Yes he I meet and made the genius a guitar and hung out with him lynch mob two times such a nice and honest friendship standing behind him on stage was priceless
Seems to me that George denied memory (perhaps falsely because it wasn't flattering to him) and then altered the conversation to suit his purposes. Not that he didn't have some good points. But still, my impression is that George wasn't totally upfront in his answer.
I obviously dont know what happened during the recording of Tooth and Nail, but for all of the complaints about the producer, its probably the best or second best of their albums. In my memory they seemed to fade rather quickly. Not that they werent good it just seemed like their output was short. All that being said my band opened for Dokken in 96 or 97 in Hershey Pa. I remember Don and George had to be picked up separately. I dont believe they were speaking. My band was pretty tight and we did original material along with covers to open. Our drummer, my best friend from 13 years old was PHENOMANAL! Mic Brown to a liking to him and I and took us on the tour bus. I thanked Don for the opportunity to which he barely acknowledged me and shook my hand like a dead fish. George was quiet but very pleasant and chatted for a while. Mic and Jeff were the most down to earth and very cool. But from my brief experience I would tend to believe George over Don. Just saying
Although I tend to take George's side, your reasoning is the definition of anecdotal. You met them, George was nice, Don wasn't so because of this one encounter you think that George is a good guy and Don isn't
George part of the holy LA triumvirate, right below Rhoads and EVH. Tooth and Nail is a fantastic hard rock album. George seems like he is difficult to deal with recording.
@@brianboats9068 you would be in the minority and clearly not as a live player. he just is not as good, you have listened ot the bootlegs of Randy correct? George never wrote or could write an album like Diary of a Madman and he basically said as much as he lauded Randy's reservoir of knowledge
George is correct about the engineer. Back then that was the path. Engineer to producer and it was never fair. But at the same time, working for the band as a producer and having to make decisions as a producer and have to fight the band on things that don't make sense, or having to battle with 3 ideas when we are burning money. Pre Production. Let the band pay for the rehearsal space and knock it out there. Go into the studio ready. And now, you can edit the life out of it.
When you hear Don tell this story, he says George didn't get along with Tom, and how the band would leave at night, and that's when he would come and do vocals. The real story is no one wanted to work with Don. Lynch, Pilson, and Mick all worked and recorded together, and would go to the Rainbow afterwards. It's not like George took off, and the rest of the band worked with Don and Tom
If you think George was not part of the problem then are you mistaken, George has spun this narrative about Don wanting al of the money and it does not add up. George had a complex because he got passed over twice for Ozzy and once for Ratt.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle ... Not saying Lynch wasn't difficult to work with, or part of the problem. I just look at the situation, and use personal real life experience. 3 guys get along and are together all the time writing, recording, and playing, and then there's Don as a loner, blaming all the dysfunction on George. Doesn't add up
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle First off, what doesn't add up about Don wanting the money and breaking up the band do so? Mick and Jeff have all said the same thing that Don broke up the band after the monsters of rock tour. A complex about not being in Ratt!? While Ratt was more successful than Dokken its not like Ratt became Led Zeppelin and Dokken were a club band, lol.
Watching Don and George interact during the Japanese reunion, they still butt heads because they both have strong opinions on how thing should be, and don't take kindly to nitpicking, which they do to each other endlessly lol.
The fact George and crew got along with the other producers tends to give George some credibility. People knocking George for sounding like he's not telling the full truth, ...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. ....I'm more offended by George's mullet haircut dyed like a skunk.
@@roberttaylor1275 In all fairness to George, when musicians give controversial interviews they risk getting blowback from other musicians, fans in the streets and nasty letters from attorneys. George sounds guarded, while also sounding like he doesn't want to wimp out on answering the questions. George sounds guarded in most of these music interviews. I just heard the interview he gave to Full In Bloom talking about his weight lifting and steroid use and the guardedness in his voice was 100% gone. It appears to me after just hearing that interview on steroids, is that George is trying to answer the music industry questions without creating legal or social liabilities for himself. I can tell you this much from personal experience with a lot of some of the sludge metal bands in Louisiana and New Orleans area that they're more cliquish, snotty and stuck-up than the music fans realize. There is indeed a subculture that these people live in and with it, are unwritten codes they live by, ...and the last thing they want to have happen to them is to get kicked out of the social orders, which can also lead to getting screwed out of both money and future opportunities.. One sign that a prominent musician is getting kicked out of the social order over some unpublicized offense is all of in a sudden other musicians starts talking smack about them to the press, and the press starts doing repeated hit pieces on them. That's a whole other side of life as any kind of celebrity ....the press humiliating you in front of millions of people in retaliatory hit pieces.. It can be a very ugly world to live in that so many who have dreams of being a successful musician don't understand until they've encountered it. I've met many very talented musicians who wanted no part of "being star" and only wanted to be nothing more than a home town hero bar band. I've seen rock musicians go to LA to attend MIT or GIT and come home no longer wanting anything to do with the rock music scene. Something going on there. Cheers!! ..
I actually agree with George here. I believe Werman just loved those points. Plus he said himself on some records he would show up once in awhile. Didn't the other engineer badmouth Werman to some bands as well, causing tensions.
It was Michael Wagner. A buddy of mine lives near Wagner and bought an amp off him a few years back. He said when he asked Wagner how he got those sounds from the Under Lock and Key album, Wanger smiled at him and said he wasn't going to give up his trade secrets.
Don Dokken is on Full In Bloom quite clearly saying that if he would have a nervous breakdown if he made another record with George!!!! Tooth and Nail is an all-time classic!!!!
George could probably be moody back in the day. He was a young guy with an insane amount of exposure and people in your ear telling you youre the best thing since sliced bread, add drugs and booze and it can be a volatile situation. Don said something back in the day about George "believing what was written in the magazines."
Here is where the magic of Rick is. We are all taught how a record should sound. Rick made the record as he wanted to hear it. He scaled back things, snares became huge, and he presented things in a way that wasn't standard. He was in over his head on Metallica, but the Johnny Cash covers was beyond brilliant. Not just for Johnny's performances but to put the two together. That is maturity as a producer. Every producer has missteps.
Rick is the guy we could all be, we could all tell a band how we want it to sound I mean George is right, take 10 albums, 5 become hit and 5 miss, Rick is the producer. But take those same ten albums, same ratio but this time a homeless guy is the producer.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle I don't think so. I think early in his career he did some good things. His creative ideas worked. He even unlocked creativity through various methods. The average person wouldn't be able to make it work as he did.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle I'm just saying. Rick had an ear that worked in a very unique way and the business end of things propelled it. I mean if we could all build a label like he did, then would we have?
Really means nothing considering the albums he produces just sound awful. Ballbreaker for AC/DC and 13 for Sabbath both happened to be each band's worst sounding album.
Andy Johns was one of the BEST mixer/engineer/producers to ever work in the music industry. These Tom Werman guys were like the "Don Kings" of the industry.
I mean everyone's high as a kite and big egos are involved I can only imagine what was going on in the studio lol you Don and George fighting the producer and everyone fighting lol I'd of liked to be a fly on the wall
Anyone can agree that George Lynch is a monster player, but everything I've heard, and from so many blown opportunities throughout his entire career, it doesn't seem like he's a people person and extremely stubborn and sensitive when asked to do anything in music scenarios.
didnt somebody also mention as a roadie back in the Monster of Rock tours that Dokken was the guys with the most nose candy besides Crue?!!! George was so wasted on coke during the Nightmare on Elm Street video solo that they had to make the wall he broke through extra extra crumbly!since he was so wasted he couldnt run and break the wall!he says it himself!
which of them will be long-remembered? I think Lynch is the more believable source. Lynch doesn't like a cocky failed guitarist telling him how to play.
"Tooth and Nail" was a shocking encore to "Breaking the Chains." I still refer people to listen to George's recorded-live guitar instrumental at the beginning of "Paris is Burning" on the BtC album - the very fast, very clean, alternate-picked *_ascending_* run at the tail end of that instrumental part was breathtaking. This was in 1983. No one was playing ASCENDING, ALTERNATE-PICKED runs like that. It was innovating in the extreme. Even today, the majority of guitarists focus on descending legato runs. One exception was the tail end of the solo in Whitesnake's "Here I go again" Tooth and Nail arrived, and I had thought BtC would be hard to top but TaN blew it away. Apparently having that first producer move on WAS A FANTASTIC DECISION for the fans!
@@idarthcadeus Played in lots of bands in the San Fran Bay Area and Phoenix in those days and at our 'level', all the cliche' guitar techniques were pervasive (legato, old blues licks, whammy bar, tapping) We saw Alcatraz in Phoenix during their first U.S. tour and of course Yngwie played ascending, alternate picked runs. But it was rare. It remains rare to this day. It is far easier, ie. you can be quite lazy, to perform descending runs in a legato style. And it's a trap. You will sound like you know how to play and you will sound like everyone else, too, if you refuse to learn the following: 1) completely eliminate 'over-shooting' the string during alternate picking - during very fast alternate picking, become aware of, and eliminate, nearly all distance between the pick and the string 2) once you eliminate the time that is lost from having to drag your pick back to the string to pluck it again, you find that your left (fretting) hand will not be able to keep up with how much more quickly you can alternate pick 3) so you have to re-train your fretting hand to keep up with your newfound picking speed. Use a metronome. SAM: "I drove from San Fran to LA. I passed through LA, reached San Diego, turned around to head back to LA - I over-shot LA and reached Malibu. I turned around, headed back to LA, passed right through it, reached Long Beach because I over-shot LA, then..." AL: "Stop, stop - why did you keep over-shooting LA? Why not park your car in LA? You wasted a lot of time, overshooting it" SAM: "Because that's what everyone else does"
@@Greg_Chaseyeah descending is a lot easier scales and arpeggios wise. The macro motion of your fretting hand goes inwards so you have a clear picture of the general location of where your fingers should go. While ascending is the opposite. I can alternate pick descending at lightning levels of speed but ascending is almost always half as fast
@@Kriegter It gets old, sounding like everyone else. I eliminated nearly all cliche' techniques: - no more sweep picking - no descending runs - no whammy bar - no massive distortion and echo - and pick nearly every note Lots of other cliche' sounds I just stopped using. A degree of satisfaction with your playing is lost, when you realize "Okay, I copied everyone else when I started playing to make some progress, but I never moved past that" It became "need to create a distinctive playing style" to find satisfaction with playing.
“A producer doesn’t do anything. They’ll tell you to extend this, shorten that, move this, double that up…Just common sense stuff”. Ok, George. So why did he have to tell you that after you came in with it? George can’t see the forest for the trees on this one. A producer is hired to turn a good song into a great song.
or a decent song into a good song, or a meh song into a decent song, and jettison the crapola from making the album whenever possible, managing and working with individual egos, being a liaison with the label, handing in the recording on time and on budget and...
"A producer is hired to turn a good song into a great song." As long as he's the right producer. There were a bunch of rats around taking money for doing garbage. One I spoke to admitted he was just fleecing the record companies.
Lynch is on my top 10 list of the best guitarists ever. of course no one gets along with band members; it's very well documented that Don dokken and Lynch never got along but that producer is stirring the pot instead of being a great producer he was bashing Lynch.
Listening to this leads me to believe it was likely a conflict of interests between the band and producer/record label. Werman wanted to make a strong rock/pop record and Dokken were content to continue their musical direction at the time. It was a bad pairing. If not that, simply poor communication or the band wasn’t ready or willing to do what was required of them to make a mainstream type of record a la Ratt’s “Round and Round” which was the flavor of the day. The industry producers of that time were in a race to make that epic landmark rock record that would blow the doors wide open and eventually it happened with bands like Mötley Crüe (home sweet home) and Bon Jovi (living on a prayer) - those were the huge rock radio hits of 85’-86’ if I remember correctly. Dokken was in the middle of all of that working to establish their sound. “Heaven sent” and “Walk away” earned them a little bit of that success a little later on I believe. It would’ve been interesting to hear what they would’ve done with Werman had they gotten along.
Only good thing Tom done in the 80s was taking Twisted Sister to the top with Stay Hungry. He kept The Crue from really being different. He was a hack. Thank God he wasn't the one who mastered the shout at the devil album. He woulda killed the grit
so much cocaine flowing i'm sure memories vary at best. but I do fully understand a guy like George, as skilled as he is, feeling like he didnt need a producer to help him record an album. i'm not arguing whether that is the right or wrong way to do it, every artist is different, but it's for sure that whatever Dokken paid producers over the years Geroge feels it was wasted money.
Wow. I just heard the Werman and D Dokken interviews and it made me a little bummed about George. But then, listening to this, I kind of feel like George is the most genuine. I’m also a guitarist, and I like George. I also like Don, though. I might be reinforcing my biases by thinking George’s interpretation is correct. So I think the problem was probably a little bit of everything.
Really interesting that I’ve never heard of other musicians, in the numerous other side projects that Lynch has had through the decades, ever say anything negative about George. Why is that? Maybe Don was the common denominator? I get that Don & George didn’t like each other back in the day, but it’s a polarizing extreme to always paint George as constantly the bad guy.
Whatever Tom Werman has done, it seemed to help a lot of bands.... "Werman has produced 23 gold and platinum albums by acts also including Blue Öyster Cult, Mother's Finest, Molly Hatchet, Ted Nugent, Mötley Crüe, Twisted Sister, Jeff Beck, Stryper, Hawks, Kix, L.A. Guns, and Poison, in addition to key recordings by Dokken, Gary Myrick & The Figures, Glass Tiger, Jason & The Scorchers, Krokus, Lita Ford, and The Producers" I think George is just salty because Werman wasn't able to achieve as much success with Dokken as the other bands he produced.... Maybe it wasnt because of Werman, but the band's in-fighting. Yeah. Tom Werman has helped too many successful bands for it just to be dumb luck. He said best: "They love you when they're selling platinum albums. 20 years later they like to blame you for every single thing they were unable to achieve".
I like the story of G&R tracking AFD; how no matter the fuckups they were, they worked like a hill of starving ants to build that record & hardly needed any orders nor directions.
Listening to G-Lynch in this makes me sick. Tooth and Nail brought me up after Breaking the Chains! I was there for Monsters of Rock (US version) aaaand Dokken had a hard time in Philadelphia (Jeff Pilson's bass back line blew out and he played the rest of show on the keyboard) and Don seemed tired and alone.
I heard the same thing about Dokken's performances on the Monsters of Rock tour. Which is a shame, because that was easily one of the best line ups for a festival that anyone could have hoped for at the time. I mean, I love every band on the bill (with the exception of the best-forgotten Zep clones Kingdom Come). And they reflected the musical diversity in hard rock and heavy metal, because no two bands sounded exactly alike. Following Metallica in those days probably wasn't an enviable position for any band, though. So I can see where that didn't help Dokken any.
What a BAND is determines what kind of 'Producer' they need in the studio. A band like Dokken just needed an engineer who could offer critical advice here and there. But they mostly needed an engineer. Making a record isn't anything like doing a live performance despite what hacks like Rubin say. It isn't. Its not the same animal. Once a band gets a feel for what recording is about they usually come around to it like the Beatles did. Well, I guess like Paul McCartney did. The overdubs were mostly Martin and Mac when the other guys left and that comes with its own problems. That created a rift between Paul M. and Ringo S. Its always going to be something but as long as it works and brings in money guys usually keep their mouths shut.
@@pb12661 I would see George play live any chance I can, and that has nothing to do with the studio. His talent is obvious, with or without Werman. What has Werman achieved without musicians?
*Im sick of people walking on egg-shells around Rubin. Everyone knows what all the engineers say about that guy behind his back. ESPECIALLY, the mix guys who get his sessions. His ears are made of tin.*
George is a quality pro guitarist but he shows a lack of understanding of the producer's role. They are project managers who get the record from a thought to a finished product. You see plenty of cases where a band is successful with one producer, then lets them go and never sees that success again. Beau Hill and Ratt for example.
The reason I love George is he constantly evolves and has a very good OPINION...he's an alpha male...and being an alpha drummer...he said one time " I get along with others...but depending whom you ask"..
Seems pretty clear what went on - George didn't respect Werman as a producer so he ran him out of town. You don't get to be called 'Mr Scary' by being nice!!!
Tooth and Nail was one of those very few albums where every song was a hit!
So was BACK for the Attack!
If only the production didn’t sound like it was recorded in a huge cave.
Yeah tooth and nail production is still very good. The debut sounded better though. Under Lock and Key had great production but sounds a little too polished. Back For The Attack sounds deep fried, what the hell happened to George's guitar tone there?
Agree as to all
George became a guitar god on Tooth & Nail 🔥🔥🔥
The reason i finaly picked up a guitar.
Breaking the chains too
George was using Randall's amps. Nice dirt and punch ,but moving to ULAK , Lynch was back on plexis again , and that was one of his best sounds since the first record. Warm, amp punch , but tooth and nail is killer.
Forgot to add ,the Randall's were all transistor amps. For TAN.
Just to be obsessive. Lynch mobs 2nd album, had wide open production. Like those good dokken albums. Love wicked sensation, the guitar ,and surprisingly,the vocals.... A good wide open , sound all around. Lynch sounds like wide open and free, May have been Marshalls, I don't t know but the vocals were great also.....!🎸🇺🇸 Kept forgetting that I like the second LM disc ,cuz it was unlike their first. Both are great work.💯
Great to get Georges side. I love getting the back story to these records that were the soundtrack of my youth.
Fantastic interviewer
Tooth and Nail was one of my top 5 albums of the 80's ... Lynch is definitely underrated!
Beat album imo with don. Hars rockin album. I loved lock n key also. But tooth n nail had angst.
@@jerryhatrick5860Hars?
He definitely NOT underrated. If anything it’s the opposite in recent years.
George is a legend. He could probably care less about what happened 35 years ago. He made amazing music. Drama is going to happen in any band.
I think it's actually that he "couldn't care less" in this case.
George is a genius player who seems very intelligent and well spoken. What he says here makes sense.
George is articulate but he seems difficult to deal with on some level , he absolutely made a good point here about worthless producers who take all of the credit when someone else did all of the heavy lifting
george is a Good Guitar Player, NOT a genius, seems like he can't keep a Band together, and in 2017 said some Dumb political stuff
and had NO idea what he was Talking about & Now he has a patreon? OMG
@@MetalHeart8787 bullshit, I am a good player. His feel, vibrato, tension, sense of melody is all on point and GREAT!
@@MetalHeart8787 Most bands don't stay together, lol. Lynch Mob is essentially a club band. There's very little money so of course no one is going to stay long. How many members have been in Dokken BTW? 25, 30? What does him having a lot of bandmates or a political comment from six years ago that you didn't like have to do with how a good guitar player he is?
@@MetalHeart8787 ....If the other members of a band cannot be dealt with/don't want to do what needs to be done...NO ONE, can keep them together. You may THINK you can control other people, but that is actually pretty rare. And there is the fact that anyone worth a damn, does not WANT to CONTROL other people.
George sounds way more clear and detailed about what happened to me, where as Tom was kind of vauge. Whether or not George was being a dick to Tom doesn't really matter as far as the music goes. His opinion on what a producer means to a band vs the engineer is spot on, it takes way more skill and experience as an engineer to get the right sound on to record vs a producer sitting around giving his opinion on what sounds good and what doesn't. Engineers deserve way more credit than they do.
Producers need more credit they are the one putting the record together. Engineer does not. Normally
@@daveg4236 Producers are like the middle managers that go to a conference and come back with a bunch of buzzwords and productivity drops for awhile until the buzzword effect begins to fade.
@@strangevisions5162 gee thanks
George is probably closer to the truth because what he said about Rick Rubin is spot on
@@daveg4236 no they are not, a lot of these guys do not know crap about a mixing board. The engineers do a lot of the heavy lifting, there are producers who definitely earn their keep ala Max Norman, Mutt lange, Bob Rock...Kevin Churko though he needs to stop writing songs for the artists
George....telling it like it is. Mad respect for ya brother!
George is the man no matter what!
The stone soup analogy! 😄
Finally someone says it. Rick Rubin is a clown.
Rubin is and was always a fraud. He just got around the big names of music with family money. Hanneman from Slayer couldn’t stand him
A lot of people say that
you forgot to add FAT. Accuracy is important!
Such a smart dude.
There’s two sides to every story but one I’m sure of….. George surely knows how to play that thang!
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he doesn't need a producer giving him advice on that.
@@pinkyellowblue007 First time I heard George I almost shit my drawers
Precisely...no george...nooooo dokken
@@pinkyellowblue007 well if you're familiar with recording in a professional studio it doesn't matter how good you can PLAY guitar, if your a crappy songwriter or arranger producers the professional one's at least are highly experienced in all aspects of constructing a song.. Producers and engineers are the ones that know how to translate that and capture it and whatever format that may be to sound good. It's kinda hard to explain.
Yes we've seen the numerous shit shows Lynch has put on for the fans over the years. Noodling all over the place, phrasing that would make a schizophrenic blush, and even sometimes just mailing it in. Lynch left unrehearsed and unfettered in the studio would have been a disaster for Dokken and Lynch's solo career.
However, when Lynch is well rehearsed and produced, almost nobody can touch him.
George sounds pretty clear now and has wisdom that only time can produce. Youth, substances and pressure may have been part of those past experiences that are suspect.
One of George's finest and Doug's work!!!!!????? What a trio band kxm is....
Results dont lie. Still my fave D album
George is so down to earth and honest.
Exactly the complete opposite of Tom Werman.
Yes he I meet and made the genius a guitar and hung out with him lynch mob two times such a nice and honest friendship standing behind him on stage was priceless
Seems to me that George denied memory (perhaps falsely because it wasn't flattering to him) and then altered the conversation to suit his purposes. Not that he didn't have some good points. But still, my impression is that George wasn't totally upfront in his answer.
I heard that in his tone too.
what are you talking about? he articulated what a fraud guys like Werman and Rubin are
Love George, but I'd agree on this too.. 🥴
Great player, bad memory.
yeah he was kind of vague
Well spoken and very insightful.
I obviously dont know what happened during the recording of Tooth and Nail, but for all of the complaints about the producer, its probably the best or second best of their albums. In my memory they seemed to fade rather quickly. Not that they werent good it just seemed like their output was short. All that being said my band opened for Dokken in 96 or 97 in Hershey Pa. I remember Don and George had to be picked up separately. I dont believe they were speaking. My band was pretty tight and we did original material along with covers to open. Our drummer, my best friend from 13 years old was PHENOMANAL! Mic Brown to a liking to him and I and took us on the tour bus. I thanked Don for the opportunity to which he barely acknowledged me and shook my hand like a dead fish. George was quiet but very pleasant and chatted for a while. Mic and Jeff were the most down to earth and very cool. But from my brief experience I would tend to believe George over Don. Just saying
Although I tend to take George's side, your reasoning is the definition of anecdotal. You met them, George was nice, Don wasn't so because of this one encounter you think that George is a good guy and Don isn't
@@MrOctober44 Not necessarily. Could have been a bad night for Don, he didnt sing well. But I just a got a different vibe from him than from George.
.. George is so articulate as always.
George part of the holy LA triumvirate, right below Rhoads and EVH.
Tooth and Nail is a fantastic hard rock album. George seems like he is difficult to deal with recording.
yep George is right there with Eddie , Randy , Schenker , Jake
@Dimitri Ramos Yep Warren is in there too
I’d put George ahead of Randy.
@@brianboats9068 you would be in the minority and clearly not as a live player. he just is not as good, you have listened ot the bootlegs of Randy correct?
George never wrote or could write an album like Diary of a Madman and he basically said as much as he lauded Randy's reservoir of knowledge
@Dimitri Ramos he's good to, but people need to realize Warren was not the main songwriter in Ratt. He was a really good player, technical,
Love his take on Rick Rubin
great interview! Lynch definitely comes across a little more authentic telling his side of things
Great interview
George is correct about the engineer. Back then that was the path. Engineer to producer and it was never fair. But at the same time, working for the band as a producer and having to make decisions as a producer and have to fight the band on things that don't make sense, or having to battle with 3 ideas when we are burning money.
Pre Production. Let the band pay for the rehearsal space and knock it out there. Go into the studio ready.
And now, you can edit the life out of it.
When you hear Don tell this story, he says George didn't get along with Tom, and how the band would leave at night, and that's when he would come and do vocals. The real story is no one wanted to work with Don. Lynch, Pilson, and Mick all worked and recorded together, and would go to the Rainbow afterwards. It's not like George took off, and the rest of the band worked with Don and Tom
If you think George was not part of the problem then are you mistaken, George has spun this narrative about Don wanting al of the money and it does not add up. George had a complex because he got passed over twice for Ozzy and once for Ratt.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle After Robbin Crosby was fired from Ratt, they should have redeemed themselves by hiring George.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle ... Not saying Lynch wasn't difficult to work with, or part of the problem. I just look at the situation, and use personal real life experience. 3 guys get along and are together all the time writing, recording, and playing, and then there's Don as a loner, blaming all the dysfunction on George. Doesn't add up
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle First off, what doesn't add up about Don wanting the money and breaking up the band do so? Mick and Jeff have all said the same thing that Don broke up the band after the monsters of rock tour. A complex about not being in Ratt!? While Ratt was more successful than Dokken its not like Ratt became Led Zeppelin and Dokken were a club band, lol.
Watching Don and George interact during the Japanese reunion, they still butt heads because they both have strong opinions on how thing should be, and don't take kindly to nitpicking, which they do to each other endlessly lol.
The fact George and crew got along with the other producers tends to give George some credibility. People knocking George for sounding like he's not telling the full truth, ...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. ....I'm more offended by George's mullet haircut dyed like a skunk.
Well if you go listen to don dokken it was only George who didn't get a long with him and caused fcking issues.
That was his Kajagoogoo haircut.😁
I'm a drummer and the mystique of George is great ya Don't know if your getting GEORGE...OR GEORGIA....🥶🤩
@@roberttaylor1275 In all fairness to George, when musicians give controversial interviews they risk getting blowback from other musicians, fans in the streets and nasty letters from attorneys. George sounds guarded, while also sounding like he doesn't want to wimp out on answering the questions.
George sounds guarded in most of these music interviews.
I just heard the interview he gave to Full In Bloom talking about his weight lifting and steroid use and the guardedness in his voice was 100% gone.
It appears to me after just hearing that interview on steroids, is that George is trying to answer the music industry questions without creating legal or social liabilities for himself.
I can tell you this much from personal experience with a lot of some of the sludge metal bands in Louisiana and New Orleans area that they're more cliquish, snotty and stuck-up than the music fans realize.
There is indeed a subculture that these people live in and with it, are unwritten codes they live by, ...and the last thing they want to have happen to them is to get kicked out of the social orders, which can also lead to getting screwed out of both money and future opportunities..
One sign that a prominent musician is getting kicked out of the social order over some unpublicized offense is all of in a sudden other musicians starts talking smack about them to the press, and the press starts doing repeated hit pieces on them.
That's a whole other side of life as any kind of celebrity ....the press humiliating you in front of millions of people in retaliatory hit pieces..
It can be a very ugly world to live in that so many who have dreams of being a successful musician don't understand until they've encountered it.
I've met many very talented musicians who wanted no part of "being star" and only wanted to be nothing more than a home town hero bar band.
I've seen rock musicians go to LA to attend MIT or GIT and come home no longer wanting anything to do with the rock music scene.
Something going on there. Cheers!!
..
Thanks again
Stone souping is a good one well said
I actually agree with George here. I believe Werman just loved those points. Plus he said himself on some records he would show up once in awhile. Didn't the other engineer badmouth Werman to some bands as well, causing tensions.
Yes he did
under lock n key was a fantastic album, not sure who produced that but stick with that guy
I think back for the attack was their best
Michael Wagener produced most of Under Lock n Key. He's produced some amazing albums.
It was Michael Wagner. A buddy of mine lives near Wagner and bought an amp off him a few years back. He said when he asked Wagner how he got those sounds from the Under Lock and Key album, Wanger smiled at him and said he wasn't going to give up his trade secrets.
@@jerk_store I think some Rockman is mixed into ULAK tone.
AC/DC said Rick Rubin basically didn't show up for Ballbreaker, so the engineer had to produce it.
@@ISOLATIONHUB IIRC Corey Taylor said the same thing about Rubin and that Slipknot would never even consider working with Rubin again.
Don Dokken is on Full In Bloom quite clearly saying that if he would have a nervous breakdown if he made another record with George!!!! Tooth and Nail is an all-time classic!!!!
That's a lot of exclamation points for a couple of simple points
Many opinions in a masterpiece 💥🤙👍
Pretty sure you’re talking about the ancient past. Don isn’t making albums anymore, his voice is shot.
I’d rather see George play than see Don sing.
George could probably be moody back in the day. He was a young guy with an insane amount of exposure and people in your ear telling you youre the best thing since sliced bread, add drugs and booze and it can be a volatile situation. Don said something back in the day about George "believing what was written in the magazines."
Not to mention the Dokken guys were all on drugs often. That right there will cause all kinds of weird issues.
clearly Don was not the sole issue
Excellent comments and clarification from George.
Here is where the magic of Rick is. We are all taught how a record should sound. Rick made the record as he wanted to hear it. He scaled back things, snares became huge, and he presented things in a way that wasn't standard.
He was in over his head on Metallica, but the Johnny Cash covers was beyond brilliant. Not just for Johnny's performances but to put the two together.
That is maturity as a producer. Every producer has missteps.
Rick is the guy we could all be, we could all tell a band how we want it to sound I mean George is right, take 10 albums, 5 become hit and 5 miss, Rick is the producer. But take those same ten albums, same ratio but this time a homeless guy is the producer.
Ya thats all PR created non-sense. Rubin is not a producer and has NO business in a recording studio. NONE.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle I don't think so. I think early in his career he did some good things. His creative ideas worked. He even unlocked creativity through various methods. The average person wouldn't be able to make it work as he did.
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracle I'm just saying. Rick had an ear that worked in a very unique way and the business end of things propelled it. I mean if we could all build a label like he did, then would we have?
Really means nothing considering the albums he produces just sound awful. Ballbreaker for AC/DC and 13 for Sabbath both happened to be each band's worst sounding album.
No vacuum tubes were harmed during the recording of Tooth and Nail
Andy Johns was one of the BEST mixer/engineer/producers to ever work in the music industry. These Tom Werman guys were like the "Don Kings" of the industry.
tooth and nail was a hit from the needle drop. good call George.
Listen some these guys talks reminds of high school football player drumming up his past
I mean everyone's high as a kite and big egos are involved I can only imagine what was going on in the studio lol you Don and George fighting the producer and everyone fighting lol I'd of liked to be a fly on the wall
Yes, lots of drugs and egos...sure miss the 80s...nice name, buddy
Anyone can agree that George Lynch is a monster player, but everything I've heard, and from so many blown opportunities throughout his entire career, it doesn't seem like he's a people person and extremely stubborn and sensitive when asked to do anything in music scenarios.
didnt somebody also mention as a roadie back in the Monster of Rock tours that Dokken was the guys with the most nose candy besides Crue?!!! George was so wasted on coke during the Nightmare on Elm Street video solo that they had to make the wall he broke through extra extra crumbly!since he was so wasted he couldnt run and break the wall!he says it himself!
This is an interesting perspective on the producer/engineer thing.
Wasn't Tom Werman writing a book?
I'd love to read that, especially since he has so many contradictory stories around him.
which of them will be long-remembered? I think Lynch is the more believable source. Lynch doesn't like a cocky failed guitarist telling him how to play.
"Tooth and Nail" was a shocking encore to "Breaking the Chains." I still refer people to listen to George's recorded-live guitar instrumental at the beginning of "Paris is Burning" on the BtC album - the very fast, very clean, alternate-picked *_ascending_* run at the tail end of that instrumental part was breathtaking. This was in 1983. No one was playing ASCENDING, ALTERNATE-PICKED runs like that. It was innovating in the extreme.
Even today, the majority of guitarists focus on descending legato runs. One exception was the tail end of the solo in Whitesnake's "Here I go again"
Tooth and Nail arrived, and I had thought BtC would be hard to top but TaN blew it away. Apparently having that first producer move on WAS A FANTASTIC DECISION for the fans!
I believe Edward Van Halen was doing blistering ascending lines way before 1983. He wasn't the only one either.
@@idarthcadeus Played in lots of bands in the San Fran Bay Area and Phoenix in those days and at our 'level', all the cliche' guitar techniques were pervasive (legato, old blues licks, whammy bar, tapping)
We saw Alcatraz in Phoenix during their first U.S. tour and of course Yngwie played ascending, alternate picked runs.
But it was rare.
It remains rare to this day.
It is far easier, ie. you can be quite lazy, to perform descending runs in a legato style. And it's a trap. You will sound like you know how to play and you will sound like everyone else, too, if you refuse to learn the following:
1) completely eliminate 'over-shooting' the string during alternate picking - during very fast alternate picking, become aware of, and eliminate, nearly all distance between the pick and the string
2) once you eliminate the time that is lost from having to drag your pick back to the string to pluck it again, you find that your left (fretting) hand will not be able to keep up with how much more quickly you can alternate pick
3) so you have to re-train your fretting hand to keep up with your newfound picking speed. Use a metronome.
SAM: "I drove from San Fran to LA. I passed through LA, reached San Diego, turned around to head back to LA - I over-shot LA and reached Malibu. I turned around, headed back to LA, passed right through it, reached Long Beach because I over-shot LA, then..."
AL: "Stop, stop - why did you keep over-shooting LA? Why not park your car in LA? You wasted a lot of time, overshooting it"
SAM: "Because that's what everyone else does"
@@Greg_Chaseyeah descending is a lot easier scales and arpeggios wise. The macro motion of your fretting hand goes inwards so you have a clear picture of the general location of where your fingers should go. While ascending is the opposite. I can alternate pick descending at lightning levels of speed but ascending is almost always half as fast
@@Kriegter It gets old, sounding like everyone else. I eliminated nearly all cliche' techniques:
- no more sweep picking
- no descending runs
- no whammy bar
- no massive distortion and echo
- and pick nearly every note
Lots of other cliche' sounds I just stopped using. A degree of satisfaction with your playing is lost, when you realize "Okay, I copied everyone else when I started playing to make some progress, but I never moved past that"
It became "need to create a distinctive playing style" to find satisfaction with playing.
“A producer doesn’t do anything. They’ll tell you to extend this, shorten that, move this, double that up…Just common sense stuff”. Ok, George. So why did he have to tell you that after you came in with it? George can’t see the forest for the trees on this one. A producer is hired to turn a good song into a great song.
or a decent song into a good song, or a meh song into a decent song, and jettison the crapola from making the album whenever possible, managing and working with individual egos, being a liaison with the label, handing in the recording on time and on budget and...
"A producer is hired to turn a good song into a great song." As long as he's the right producer. There were a bunch of rats around taking money for doing garbage. One I spoke to admitted he was just fleecing the record companies.
@@Magnum-Farce very true. Can also be said for almost any occupation/skill set
@@mattrock12 I'd suggest more in the "artistic" fields, though.
More room for bee ess than something technical or "numeric".
Wish dangly earrings and two tone hair would come back. Wonder is Lynch still has that Aria Pro black and white skull guitar?
Werman said he had bands IM SURE THEY SHREDDED 😆
Production on T&N was thin and hard sounding. Under Lock & Key had much better production, warm, full sounding
It sounds like a demo. Of any of the albums I've listened to that he worked on its definitely the worst production wise
Cocaine. Don’t remember the reasoning (science?) behind it, but apparently cocaine had a hand on all those thin sounding albums.
George was a pain in the yup! On the lynch mob tour! He cost me money! Was usually long gone before he got his but kicked! Especially in Scottsdale
Scottsdale 😂😂😂
His band KXM...is incredible...check "NOISES IN THE SKY"!!!! it's haunting
Lynch is on my top 10 list of the best guitarists ever. of course no one gets along with band members; it's very well documented that Don dokken and Lynch never got along but that producer is stirring the pot instead of being a great producer he was bashing Lynch.
Listening to this leads me to believe it was likely a conflict of interests between the band and producer/record label. Werman wanted to make a strong rock/pop record and Dokken were content to continue their musical direction at the time. It was a bad pairing. If not that, simply poor communication or the band wasn’t ready or willing to do what was required of them to make a mainstream type of record a la Ratt’s “Round and Round” which was the flavor of the day. The industry producers of that time were in a race to make that epic landmark rock record that would blow the doors wide open and eventually it happened with bands like Mötley Crüe (home sweet home) and Bon Jovi (living on a prayer) - those were the huge rock radio hits of 85’-86’ if I remember correctly. Dokken was in the middle of all of that working to establish their sound. “Heaven sent” and “Walk away” earned them a little bit of that success a little later on I believe. It would’ve been interesting to hear what they would’ve done with Werman had they gotten along.
The real difference between Rick Rubin and the homeless guy is that the homeless guy probably smells better.
Only good thing Tom done in the 80s was taking Twisted Sister to the top with Stay Hungry.
He kept The Crue from really being different. He was a hack.
Thank God he wasn't the one who mastered the shout at the devil album. He woulda killed the grit
so much cocaine flowing i'm sure memories vary at best. but I do fully understand a guy like George, as skilled as he is, feeling like he didnt need a producer to help him record an album. i'm not arguing whether that is the right or wrong way to do it, every artist is different, but it's for sure that whatever Dokken paid producers over the years Geroge feels it was wasted money.
I think it is amusing how all of these musicians swing at Rick Rubin...
I never knew that they disliked him. I wonder why he's so successful then🤔
cause hes a hack. he ruined slayer
@@Mad_Axe_Man125 how can you ruin a shitty band
@@theophany1770 ask Kanye
@@theophany1770 because he got lucky but read comments over the last 15 years. RHCP, Metallica, Sabbath all mockng him as useless
Even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut.
Am I the only person who thinks Tom Werman's nick name is probably "the Worm" since hes so slimy? Lol
Wow. I just heard the Werman and D Dokken interviews and it made me a little bummed about George. But then, listening to this, I kind of feel like George is the most genuine. I’m also a guitarist, and I like George. I also like Don, though. I might be reinforcing my biases by thinking George’s interpretation is correct. So I think the problem was probably a little bit of everything.
The click pic made me think,cool George and Dr. Fukk doing a collaboration. Lol
Really interesting that I’ve never heard of other musicians, in the numerous other side projects that Lynch has had through the decades, ever say anything negative about George. Why is that? Maybe Don was the common denominator?
I get that Don & George didn’t like each other back in the day, but it’s a polarizing extreme to always paint George as constantly the bad guy.
OK,
Now I'm on George's side, again.
George can pay his engineers whatever he wants, but somehow he never stepped up.
It's a producer's job to make a rock guy mad. They play better that way. That record rules, so he did something right.
I dont know too much about Rick R., But he sure had His hand in that soup for reign in blood...
In every business,there are the people doing the work, and the people making the money. Unfortunately they aren't the same people
Whatever Tom Werman has done, it seemed to help a lot of bands....
"Werman has produced 23 gold and platinum albums by acts also including Blue Öyster Cult, Mother's Finest, Molly Hatchet, Ted Nugent, Mötley Crüe, Twisted Sister, Jeff Beck, Stryper, Hawks, Kix, L.A. Guns, and Poison, in addition to key recordings by Dokken, Gary Myrick & The Figures, Glass Tiger, Jason & The Scorchers, Krokus, Lita Ford, and The Producers"
I think George is just salty because Werman wasn't able to achieve as much success with Dokken as the other bands he produced.... Maybe it wasnt because of Werman, but the band's in-fighting.
Yeah. Tom Werman has helped too many successful bands for it just to be dumb luck. He said best: "They love you when they're selling platinum albums. 20 years later they like to blame you for every single thing they were unable to achieve".
6:22 sums it up. Producers... not always needed. Lots of leeches in the music biz.
Georges phrasing is incredible
he is very good, he is not Rhoads nor EVH
@@Dave_Wight_The_Rock_Oracleor Warren DiMartini
I like the story of G&R tracking AFD; how no matter the fuckups they were, they worked like a hill of starving ants to build that record & hardly needed any orders nor directions.
Listening to G-Lynch in this makes me sick. Tooth and Nail brought me up after Breaking the Chains! I was there for Monsters of Rock (US version) aaaand Dokken had a hard time in Philadelphia (Jeff Pilson's bass back line blew out and he played the rest of show on the keyboard) and Don seemed tired and alone.
Having to follow Metallica every day had to be tough
I heard the same thing about Dokken's performances on the Monsters of Rock tour. Which is a shame, because that was easily one of the best line ups for a festival that anyone could have hoped for at the time. I mean, I love every band on the bill (with the exception of the best-forgotten Zep clones Kingdom Come). And they reflected the musical diversity in hard rock and heavy metal, because no two bands sounded exactly alike.
Following Metallica in those days probably wasn't an enviable position for any band, though. So I can see where that didn't help Dokken any.
I can buy it. That's why you have more fun before you sign the contracts.
Early Molly Hatchet records sound like early Ted Nugent. Soundscape the same. Tom produced both!
Geoff Workman was fantastic on this album!!
What a BAND is determines what kind of 'Producer' they need in the studio. A band like Dokken just needed an engineer who could offer critical advice here and there. But they mostly needed an engineer. Making a record isn't anything like doing a live performance despite what hacks like Rubin say. It isn't. Its not the same animal. Once a band gets a feel for what recording is about they usually come around to it like the Beatles did. Well, I guess like Paul McCartney did. The overdubs were mostly Martin and Mac when the other guys left and that comes with its own problems. That created a rift between Paul M. and Ringo S. Its always going to be something but as long as it works and brings in money guys usually keep their mouths shut.
Hacks like Rubin 🤷♂️😂🤷♂️
Dokken was near the top of the genre, dont understand how they werent headlining from Tooth on - as they blew away most of the headliners
Well for the results seem a lot better then any of. George's solo efforts
Well the major label production budget was about $800,000 so it should.
Not as good as other Dokken albums with better producers.
Music Business = Fox in the Chicken coup…..”don’t worry now, I will make sure everything is ok”…..
Those who can play, do, thise who can't are Tom Werman.
George’s talent speaks for itself.
well, it's hard to argue with Tom Werman's success either.
@@pb12661 I would see George play live any chance I can, and that has nothing to do with the studio. His talent is obvious, with or without Werman. What has Werman achieved without musicians?
🎸💀💯💎🎧
Someone is not telling the truth here! I am going to guess giving Lynch’s reputation that he is not being honest.
Boy is he right about these producers and that Rick Rubin character, they know nothing about music and it being a numbers game with them!
George is explaining how the juice crew works. That's why they are kicked out of ever country they go too. Hopefully in America soon!
*Im sick of people walking on egg-shells around Rubin. Everyone knows what all the engineers say about that guy behind his back. ESPECIALLY, the mix guys who get his sessions. His ears are made of tin.*
One benefit of the information age, and UA-cam, useless producers have no job. You become your own producer
I love George but its pretty hard to argue with Tom's track record.
Two entirely different stories. Lol
Of course Werman would sell it differently, he is a fraud ala Rick Rubin
theCREATURE ate for free😅
Tom produced Tooth and Nail and Shout, can't be just luck.
Lynch is speaking rationally and logically.
Two ingredients that aren’t always necessary for a winning recipe. Both can work against you.
@@mattrock12 At least you can understand him. Not like trying to decipher Ozzy's garbled gab.
@@dr.krinkleweldon5934 Case in point. LOL
@@mattrock12 Sometimes you can nail your own coffin with a new hammer and golden nails. Was that your meaning on my first post?
George is a quality pro guitarist but he shows a lack of understanding of the producer's role. They are project managers who get the record from a thought to a finished product. You see plenty of cases where a band is successful with one producer, then lets them go and never sees that success again. Beau Hill and Ratt for example.
Geoff Workman like Lou Gramm(atico) look
The reason I love George is he constantly evolves and has a very good OPINION...he's an alpha male...and being an alpha drummer...he said one time " I get along with others...but depending whom you ask"..
Seems pretty clear what went on - George didn't respect Werman as a producer so he ran him out of town. You don't get to be called 'Mr Scary' by being nice!!!
...oh without George....no dokken..