You guys are great, thank you and God bless, you ou and your families. Please keep it going. I'm an Italian , my family came from the Papal States. Along with two cardinals, who lived in the early in the 17th centuries. One of the Cardinals was Victor general for five popes. And all here at my home and family want the mass that my forefathers celebrated.
My great-grandparents were both born in 1869, so were born as subjects of Pope Pius IX, the year before Lazio was annexed by King Victor Emanuel II. They lived on small family farms, which supplied produce to the Abbey at Monte Casino. That part of Italy was very poor - everything of value had been stripped out of it, firstly by Napoleon I and then, later, by Napoleon III after Pope Pius IX was unwise enough to agree to permit French troops to restore him to power after the Revolution of 1848. In the 1890s, England was desperately short of labour, as so many of those of working age had left for the colonies, the gold fields or the USA. So Government agents were sent to Lazio to recruit workers and my great-grandfather and my great-grandmother’s brother left to take up the offer. My great-grandmother then went to join her brother and met and married my great-grandfather, in Leeds. They had a large family, four of the children, including my grandfather, fighting in the British Army in the First World War. The Mass, of course, in those days was in Latin - easier, I suppose, for someone who spoke Italian to follow!
Can everyone remember this fact; No SSPX = No FSSP and No SSPX = No ICKSP. If the SSPX dissolved itself then the very next day Rome would QUASH the FSSP and ICKSP.
Except for the fact that the papacy has approved both the FSSP and ICKSP. The SSPX is a direct result of a bishops decent. A bishop that was excommunicated for ilicitly ordaining other bishops. He was wrong to do this. The sspx has continued to show a poor attitude toward the papacy and other forms of Catholic liturgy.
@@alternativefactory7190no he was right to consecrate the bishops. He acted according to equity, judging that the law did not apply in this situation. The Vatican representatives were not negotiating in good faith, and kept changing the goal posts. Without Lefebvre we would not have the Mass. He is totally vindicated in view of the current wave of destruction.
@alternativefactory7190 I think @marcokite's point was that the Vatican only tolerates the existence of the ED communities because the SSPX exits. If Francis tried to crush the ED communities NOW, they'd almost certainly be absorbed into the SSPX, which would continue its apparently unstoppable growth, now strengthened by an influx of younger priests and many parishioners. If the SSPX DIDN’T exist, however, he'd come down on the ED communities so fast there'd be nothing left but a memory. It's typical Jesuit chess.
@@alternativefactory7190 No, Abp Lefebvre was acting within canon law, which allows for emergency consecrations when the faith is in jeopardy. He was guided by the Holy Ghost to provide a lifeboat to prevent Vatican 2/Novus Ordo Titanic from sinking the Church forever (i.e. broken line of tradition). He was denied a hearing at the Vatican, which is required by canon law. The Vatican broke canon law in so doing, and its ruling against Lefebvre, just as it broke with the Catholic faith in promoting Vatican 2 (violate several dogmas and previous Councils), and the Novus Ordo (violates the infallible Papal Bull, Quo Primum). If it were not for Lefebvre and the SSPX, the Catholic Church would have proven itself false, Matthew 16:18 wrong, and God nonexistent. St Athanasius was exiled four times for rejecting the Arian heresy, as most bishops and even the Pope embraced it. Yet, the Church prevailed and that heresy was never authoritatively declared because he did not give up, just as Christ promised. Obedience to men was never supposed to replace obedience to Christ, yet too many modern Catholics have been led down to believe so (a potential heresy/apostasy, btw). The Pharisees made the same mistake. History is repeating, just as Holy Scripture and the Church warned. Now it is the modernist ape of the church that seeks to crucify the true faith and Christ's One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.
Could this be our current times? St. Francis of Assisi: "Some preachers will keep silent about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer."
@@michaelspeyrer1264 no.... but they certainly help, we can use all the help and good will available. Restoring my garden doesn't require the planting of hydrangeas, but they certainly help, so... why not.
Our local Italian bakery (DeCamillo's) in Lewiston, New York, sells Eccles cakes. Apparently they found it a good way to use up excess batter. Can't speak for the rest of the US.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 I think you read that into it yourself -ICKSP though are filling out chapels again here in “modern” Ireland with the traditional form - the same form we share with our dead generations & our saints and martyrs - who lived through 8 centuries of persecution for their love of the Sacred and Apostolic and kept this tiny island nation Catholic against all the odds. Some bonds shouldn’t be forgotten or broken.
I wonder what conditions may have been placed on the ICKSP (and FSSP) to enable them to continue with their charism...? Some guarantee of their "loyalty"/ lack of public criticism of the presenr regime? I don't trust Pope Francis.
“Bring on the clowns” - oh, wait a minute, the Pope already has, not to mention the circus performers, comedians and other forms of light entertainment, to keep the masses amused. Bread and circuses.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 It is not entirely clear to me how expressing the wish that the Holy Father should act more like a Catholic is interpreted as “Protestant” thinking.
Something wrong with Francis. We don’t know what. But we know this to be the case. Francis has tried to negate orthodoxy by petty bureaucratic action. Doesn’t work. So Francis realizes now that he will not succeed. So he is attempting to compromise and save something of his project. 18:21
@25:00 More vi-GAH-no! The problem with this discussion is that it seems to assume that the TLM is all about aesthetics. It’s about doctrine. The SSPX are perhaps clearest about this, because they can afford to be.
Absolutely. You can get a N.O. in Latin, Ad Orientum, with Roman Vestments, Gregorian Chant, Communion at the altar rail by a priest, etc. and it still has grave problems that prevent me from attending. The Ottaviani Intervention spells out - decades ago - the problems with the new Mass in its pristine original state.
Gavin showed great restraint in not using his great psychotherapeutic insight to state that it is what we project onto people and things that, represents something significant about the person making the comments. Sometimes lace is just lace Holy Father, just as Freud stated that a cigar is only a cigar......
I would like to pick up on a remark made by Mark on the SSPX. He described them as not accepting Vatican Two. This is nonsense. The Apostles of Jesus and Mary follow their founder in doubting the orthodoxy of some of the Council documents and believe they should be clarified, particularly that of religious liberty. Some of the Council Fathers worried about the language being used in the documents after those prepared had been binned.
Mark, Vigano is not entirely blameless. At Adoration this morning, I read Proverbs 18: 1: "He who is estranged seeks pretexts to break out against all sound judgment" (RSV-CE).
Strange days. Here in Lyon we have, not one, but two Latin Mass Churches, FSSP and diocesan (the one I attend) both thriving with gangs of young people, young families with little kiddies running all over the place. Peaceful relations with the good Bishop apparently. Whereas in Quimper, in Brittany, the FSSP are getting the boot from their Bishop, from what I understand. It seems you have to be lucky and have the "right" Bishop in charge!! Weird situation indeed. The priestly ordinations are still suspended in the south (Missionnaires de la Miséricorde divine) or have to be carried out using the current Liturgy, so much time lost bickering over Liturgy (particularly in Rome..... could somebody not get a real job for Cdl Roche?) when there is so much to be done to save souls.
Wait a minute guys, the original and most senior FSSP Priests were all SSPX Priests who left because of the so called illicit consecration of Bishops. They had their ordinations fully recognised and were promised a Bishop that never came but otherwise 'legitimised' Perhaps they didn't get a Bishop because they were all Lefebre formed - which makes them 'on the nose' This created the tale of two cities and founded mutual issues. Lets not forget this and the fact that the FSSPX was 'in the Church' and accepted by the Pope during its early years.
No it wasn’t. It was given a trail basis until 1975 as any communion would be given, and the. Was ordered closed, which it refused and at that point broke obedience, and the lies began and have never stopped since.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 wrong! it received a visitation which gave it rave reviews and was under the Bishop of Econe who was a fan and had no problems. It was a seminary to begin with and the seminarians sought out Lefevre AFTER HE HAD RETIRED. Michael Matt is an example of someone Confirmed by him prior to the controversy involving the consecration of Bishops and he still considers him a future saint. Some of those early seminarians are in local diocesan parishes without and scrutiny regarding their ordinations. Bishops incardinated them without batting an eyelid.
Perhaps the meeting with the ICKSP should be seen in the light of the rumored new document severely limiting TLM in parishes. Giving and taking away? We may be better able to judge the meeting after the release of that document. Thanks for your video 🙏
Although many Catholics would not admit this, there are denominational like structures within the church which are not necessarily friendly towards one another.
I saw Fr. Wach in a picture with the Pope. Must have been the first time in many years he’s ever worn a black cassock. I love the Institute, but they certainly represent to the highest degree what Francis detests about the TLM.
Thank you Mark Lambert for making distinctions among the different groups and charisms, especially the FSSP. I entered full communion with Rome through the FSSP where I attend. Thanks, too, for your invitation to our Holy Father and others to see where the Holy Spirit is at work: as you point out, with the TLM we find thriving vocations, numerous young folk and extended families. Where did I read online, “If your congregation isn’t crying, it’s dying”? Let the synodal church “listen to” and “accompany” those signs of the Spirit! Glad to support the work of “Catholic Unscripted.”
I can vaguely remember the transition from the Tridentine Liturgy to the current form. If I remember correctly, it did not happen overnight. The first change, I think, was to have the Scripture readings read first in Latin and then in English. At that time, the Knox translation was used - in 1966 the Jerusalem translation replaced this. I cannot now remember the order of events and it would be interesting to find out just when each change happened. The most obvious change, of course, was the installation of a Protestant style communion table, to replace the Altar and having the Priest face the congregation. The first use of English involved translating the existing Tridentine form into English, so that the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel remained for a time. Then, when a Commission was set up, which included a large number of Protestant advisers, they insisted that the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar be removed (since the Altar was now a Protestant style communion table and the connection with the Old Testament Altar was not accepted by the Protestants who carried the most weight on the Commission). Then, they insisted upon the removal of the Last Gospel - many Protestants adopt one or other version of the Arian heresy and they consider that the reference to “the Word” in the first chapter of the Gospel of John is to the Sacred Scriptures, rather than to Jesus Christ, as the Catholic Church believes. Then they insisted upon the removal of the Prayer to St. Michael. Then, since there were a number of the Committee who espoused the Universalist heresy, they insisted that the very words of consecration of the wine be changed to embrace this, so that the Scriptural words “shed for you and for many” were changed to “shed for you and for all”. The surprising thing is that then, for the next forty years, the wrong form of words was used for the consecration of the wine in the Catholic Church, while those Protestant Churches which believe in the real presence in some form, continued to use the correct words. So, the question arises, would one have been more likely to have received the real presence in the Church of England, which used the correct words of consecration or in the Catholic Church, which did not. Pope Benedict XVI finally said “enough is enough” and changed the words back to the correct Scriptural form and made some other changes to the English translation of the Mass to restore it to the correct form. The fact is that the changes to the form of the Mass go beyond those contemplated, and, more to the point, authorised, by Sacrosanctum Concilium. As a matter of doctrine, only a later Ecumenical Council can override the teaching of an earlier Ecumenical Council, so that the current form of the Mass is not, in fact, authorised by the Second Vatican Council - it is a mish mash thrown together by a Committee including a number of Protestants, who wanted a communion service acceptable to Protestants in the hope of a move towards ecumenism.
After the 1962 Missal came the 1964 Missal. The psalm judica me Deus was deleted, but the confiteor was said at the foot of the altar in the vernacular. The readings were given in vernacular languages, but the Canon remained in Latin. From 1964 to 1969 there were many piecemeal changes, until the coup de grace, the 1969 novus ordo, all vernacular Mass of Paul VI.
@@kitstr Thank you. In my view, the “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar” were particularly inspiring. Of course, there is no reason at all why, arriving a few minutes before the start of Mass, one should not read these privately. After all, they are all taken directly from the Psalms and we are encouraged to read the Sacred Scriptures. These prayers have not, therefore, been abolished, they are simply no longer included in the Liturgy.
@@royquick-s5n Very true. In the early Church in the West, the vernacular was Latin, the common tongue, the Vulgate. Educated Romans spoke Greek and there was strong resistance to having the Mass and the Sacred Scriptures in the vulgar tongue. Eventually, the vernacular was used. For centuries, Latin remained a spoken language. Queen Elizabeth 1 spoke it fluently,since it was the language of international diplomacy. When she received the Polish Ambassador, he had brought an interpreter with him, as he assumed that a Protestant Queen would not be fluent in Latin. The Queen launched into such fluent Latin that the Ambassador found it difficult to keep up! You are right about receiving communion standing, in the hand. This has been the continuous, unbroken, tradition in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
I believe the Pope's intention in meeting with Fr. Wach is simply part of his attempt to corral the various orders using the Traditional rite exclusively thus effectively sidelining them. Other orders that have not been founded for that reason, like the Missionaries of Divine Mercy who are essentially bi ritual, can have their members re educated.
And excuse me if I am too harsh sir, but the Pope the leader of a massive Church should not be saying one thing and then slams you the other way. You laugh but it is not funny in matters of FAITH. The truth can not be changed to fit out times.
The FSSPs meeting with the Pope was chsrscterisd by abject grovelling. PF was very pleased by this and said these guys are okay. I imagine the ICKSP interview would be similar, if they had any sense.
Excellent topic. Good discussion. Gavin has done justice to that 🍺 Unfortunately I’m unable to share your mirth on the good priest’s name. Perhaps another time.
I've been reading a book called "Work of Human Hands: A theological critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Rev. Anthony Cekada. He goes into some great detail on the changes to the liturgy and why it was done. Worth a read for anyone concerned about the abolishment of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Why does Gavin insist on using the F word so flippantly? There are Catholics who struggle with SSA and are living chastely and such language is hardly being encouraging or charitable to them.
@@Bob.W. But why use a derogatory slur? It is hardly befitting a Christian and goes against the Catechism. "They [homosexuals] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" 2258.
Perhaps, as a recent convert, Gavin wishes to imitate the Holy Father as closely as possible. Accounts from Rome indicate that, when in private, the language used by the Holy Father would make a sailor blush!
Do you realize you sound like an anti-Catholic Protestant? These are the same kind of comments I see from Protestant trolls on Catholic channels. There are definitely problems with Pope Francis, but we should be careful not to sound like them.
Love you guys and always keen to hear your thoughts but with respect the use of the F pejorative lowers the tone rather than raises the argument. I would rather it not be used at all let alone with apparent relish as it does nothing to assert the traditional teachings of the Church on same sex attraction, is unsupportive of people currently endeavouring to bear that particular cross especially as part of groups like Courage International and plays right into the hands of those who wrongly accuse Catholics of hate. You don’t have to be James Martin, God forgive him, to recognise that hating the sin comes way behind hating the sinner for some people when it comes to this issue, so please don’t encourage them. The additional irony is that this slur, and most people to whom it applies take it as such, is thought to have been directed not at them but at traditionally minded seminarians which is disgraceful. Either way it gives the same vibe as when rappers refer to women or particularly mothers.
HELP, you guys & gal! We're confused -- WHY Pope Bergolio's Vatican seems to HATE the TLM while at the same time cozy's up to the TLM of the SSDP and FFSP, etc. please explain "this game". PLEASE. Thank you.
Why is it that the most faithful Catholic Christian have toi suffer with Christ because of the holy father? Is he really the holy father if the faithful have to suffer loss and anxiety because of his BS?
Pope Francis is not persecuting tradition, because sacred tradition isn’t confined in a . Single liturgy. That is a fallacious premise What has happened is that radical traditionalists have attempted to subvert the Magisterium using the liturgy as a proxy for refusal to submit to the Holy See and repent loudly attacked the Pope.
Very good work to bring all of this to attention. Pity though that Mr Ashenden has to be part of the team. His rather patronising and sarcastic remarks remind me of the unpleasantness in the Anglican Church which I left 40 years ago.He seems delighted to be using that derogatory slur against homosexuals. It's alright because the Pope does it? I'm sure there are many priests and lay people of 'homosexual orientation' who live exemplary lives of chastity for the sake of their holy catholic religion.
Well, at a general level, I do, of course agree with you. We should be imitators of Christ, not of Pope Francis - in particular, not imitators of Pope Francis in his choice of language! To be fair, Pope Francis has declined to accept the title of “Vicar of Christ”. It seems clear enough that, if he is Vicar for someone, it is not Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. “By your fruits you shall know them” and true Christians do not choose deliberately to use bad, offensive or insulting language.
You guys are great, thank you and God bless, you ou and your families. Please keep it going. I'm an Italian , my family came from the Papal States. Along with two cardinals, who lived in the early in the 17th centuries. One of the Cardinals was Victor general for five popes. And all here at my home and family want the mass that my forefathers celebrated.
My great-grandparents were both born in 1869, so were born as subjects of Pope Pius IX, the year before Lazio was annexed by King Victor Emanuel II. They lived on small family farms, which supplied produce to the Abbey at Monte Casino. That part of Italy was very poor - everything of value had been stripped out of it, firstly by Napoleon I and then, later, by Napoleon III after Pope Pius IX was unwise enough to agree to permit French troops to restore him to power after the Revolution of 1848. In the 1890s, England was desperately short of labour, as so many of those of working age had left for the colonies, the gold fields or the USA. So Government agents were sent to Lazio to recruit workers and my great-grandfather and my great-grandmother’s brother left to take up the offer. My great-grandmother then went to join her brother and met and married my great-grandfather, in Leeds. They had a large family, four of the children, including my grandfather, fighting in the British Army in the First World War. The Mass, of course, in those days was in Latin - easier, I suppose, for someone who spoke Italian to follow!
@@Mark3ABEthank you very much for that very awesome God bless you and your family
Can everyone remember this fact; No SSPX = No FSSP and No SSPX = No ICKSP. If the SSPX dissolved itself then the very next day Rome would QUASH the FSSP and ICKSP.
Except for the fact that the papacy has approved both the FSSP and ICKSP. The SSPX is a direct result of a bishops decent. A bishop that was excommunicated for ilicitly ordaining other bishops. He was wrong to do this. The sspx has continued to show a poor attitude toward the papacy and other forms of Catholic liturgy.
@@alternativefactory7190no he was right to consecrate the bishops. He acted according to equity, judging that the law did not apply in this situation. The Vatican representatives were not negotiating in good faith, and kept changing the goal posts. Without Lefebvre we would not have the Mass. He is totally vindicated in view of the current wave of destruction.
@alternativefactory7190 I think @marcokite's point was that the Vatican only tolerates the existence of the ED communities because the SSPX exits. If Francis tried to crush the ED communities NOW, they'd almost certainly be absorbed into the SSPX, which would continue its apparently unstoppable growth, now strengthened by an influx of younger priests and many parishioners. If the SSPX DIDN’T exist, however, he'd come down on the ED communities so fast there'd be nothing left but a memory. It's typical Jesuit chess.
@@alternativefactory7190 No, Abp Lefebvre was acting within canon law, which allows for emergency consecrations when the faith is in jeopardy. He was guided by the Holy Ghost to provide a lifeboat to prevent Vatican 2/Novus Ordo Titanic from sinking the Church forever (i.e. broken line of tradition). He was denied a hearing at the Vatican, which is required by canon law. The Vatican broke canon law in so doing, and its ruling against Lefebvre, just as it broke with the Catholic faith in promoting Vatican 2 (violate several dogmas and previous Councils), and the Novus Ordo (violates the infallible Papal Bull, Quo Primum). If it were not for Lefebvre and the SSPX, the Catholic Church would have proven itself false, Matthew 16:18 wrong, and God nonexistent. St Athanasius was exiled four times for rejecting the Arian heresy, as most bishops and even the Pope embraced it. Yet, the Church prevailed and that heresy was never authoritatively declared because he did not give up, just as Christ promised. Obedience to men was never supposed to replace obedience to Christ, yet too many modern Catholics have been led down to believe so (a potential heresy/apostasy, btw). The Pharisees made the same mistake. History is repeating, just as Holy Scripture and the Church warned. Now it is the modernist ape of the church that seeks to crucify the true faith and Christ's One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church.
@@alternativefactory7190 If AB Lefebvre had not gone ahead and consecrated his Bishops, the TLM would probably have died out by now.
Could this be our current times?
St. Francis of Assisi: "Some preachers will keep silent about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer."
Saint Francis of Assisi, OPN!
This did not come from st Francis but the heretical Franciscan spirituals long after Francis was dead.
Never said this.
We’re blessed to have the ICKSP & Sister Adorers restoring faith and tradition here in ‘woke’ Ireland , Do chum glóire Dé agus Onóra na hÉireann 🇻🇦🇮🇪
Fantastic, hope for dear old Ireland, land of my birth and ancestors.
Restoring the faith and sacred tradition don’t require the extraordinary form.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 no.... but they certainly help, we can use all the help and good will available. Restoring my garden doesn't require the planting of hydrangeas, but they certainly help, so... why not.
Our local Italian bakery (DeCamillo's) in Lewiston, New York, sells Eccles cakes. Apparently they found it a good way to use up excess batter. Can't speak for the rest of the US.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 I think you read that into it yourself -ICKSP though are filling out chapels again here in “modern” Ireland with the traditional form - the same form we share with our dead generations & our saints and martyrs - who lived through 8 centuries of persecution for their love of the Sacred and Apostolic and kept this tiny island nation Catholic against all the odds. Some bonds shouldn’t be forgotten or broken.
"Traditionalists", aka "Ordinary Catholics" not so long ago...
Reactionaries?
@@royquick-s5n+JMJ No. Catholic.
True, i am an old guy ib my 50s compared to the churchfull of young folk, couples, & lots of babies. And we were nomatic catholics in tge 90s
I wonder what conditions may have been placed on the ICKSP (and FSSP) to enable them to continue with their charism...? Some guarantee of their "loyalty"/ lack of public criticism of the presenr regime? I don't trust Pope Francis.
The worst is closing down or restricting their seminaries. Definitely being restricted. This is quite evil.
“Really reducing the Vatican to a level of parody.” Well said, Mark.
“Bring on the clowns” - oh, wait a minute, the Pope already has, not to mention the circus performers, comedians and other forms of light entertainment, to keep the masses amused. Bread and circuses.
This is Protestant thinking.
Protestants for tradition unite.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 It is not entirely clear to me how expressing the wish that the Holy Father should act more like a Catholic is interpreted as “Protestant” thinking.
Something wrong with Francis. We don’t know what. But we know this to be the case.
Francis has tried to negate orthodoxy by petty bureaucratic action. Doesn’t work.
So Francis realizes now that he will not succeed. So he is attempting to compromise and save something of his project. 18:21
I'd say there's a LOT WRING with Bergoglio as 'pope'.
I'm only 44 and yet I feel like one of the minority of old folks in my ICKSP parish 😅
@25:00 More vi-GAH-no!
The problem with this discussion is that it seems to assume that the TLM is all about aesthetics. It’s about doctrine. The SSPX are perhaps clearest about this, because they can afford to be.
Absolutely. You can get a N.O. in Latin, Ad Orientum, with Roman Vestments, Gregorian Chant, Communion at the altar rail by a priest, etc. and it still has grave problems that prevent me from attending. The Ottaviani Intervention spells out - decades ago - the problems with the new Mass in its pristine original state.
“I must increase so that Benedict may decrease “
Schism is gravely sinful. Benedict is dead and he stopped bing pope over ten years prior to that.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 That's a very weak argument in support of heterodoxy.
Gavin showed great restraint in not using his great psychotherapeutic insight to state that it is what we project onto people and things that, represents something significant about the person making the comments. Sometimes lace is just lace Holy Father, just as Freud stated that a cigar is only a cigar......
It would be easier if you said the fraternity for FSSP and The Institute for ICKSP.
I would like to pick up on a remark made by Mark on the SSPX. He described them as not accepting Vatican Two. This is nonsense. The Apostles of Jesus and Mary follow their founder in doubting the orthodoxy of some of the Council documents and believe they should be clarified, particularly that of religious liberty. Some of the Council Fathers worried about the language being used in the documents after those prepared had been binned.
Mark, Vigano is not entirely blameless. At Adoration this morning, I read Proverbs 18: 1: "He who is estranged seeks pretexts to break out against all sound judgment" (RSV-CE).
Thank you all for your work. in TLM (the Restrainer) since 1995 in So. Cal
Strange days. Here in Lyon we have, not one, but two Latin Mass Churches, FSSP and diocesan (the one I attend) both thriving with gangs of young people, young families with little kiddies running all over the place. Peaceful relations with the good Bishop apparently. Whereas in Quimper, in Brittany, the FSSP are getting the boot from their Bishop, from what I understand. It seems you have to be lucky and have the "right" Bishop in charge!! Weird situation indeed. The priestly ordinations are still suspended in the south (Missionnaires de la Miséricorde divine) or have to be carried out using the current Liturgy, so much time lost bickering over Liturgy (particularly in Rome..... could somebody not get a real job for Cdl Roche?) when there is so much to be done to save souls.
Wait a minute guys, the original and most senior FSSP Priests were all SSPX Priests who left because of the so called illicit consecration of Bishops. They had their ordinations fully recognised and were promised a Bishop that never came but otherwise 'legitimised' Perhaps they didn't get a Bishop because they were all Lefebre formed - which makes them 'on the nose'
This created the tale of two cities and founded mutual issues. Lets not forget this and the fact that the FSSPX was 'in the Church' and accepted by the Pope during its early years.
No it wasn’t. It was given a trail basis until 1975 as any communion would be given, and the. Was ordered closed, which it refused and at that point broke obedience, and the lies began and have never stopped since.
@@michaelspeyrer1264 wrong! it received a visitation which gave it rave reviews and was under the Bishop of Econe who was a fan and had no problems. It was a seminary to begin with and the seminarians sought out Lefevre AFTER HE HAD RETIRED. Michael Matt is an example of someone Confirmed by him prior to the controversy involving the consecration of Bishops and he still considers him a future saint. Some of those early seminarians are in local diocesan parishes without and scrutiny regarding their ordinations. Bishops incardinated them without batting an eyelid.
Perhaps the meeting with the ICKSP should be seen in the light of the rumored new document severely limiting TLM in parishes. Giving and taking away? We may be better able to judge the meeting after the release of that document. Thanks for your video 🙏
Although many Catholics would not admit this, there are denominational like structures within the church which are not necessarily friendly towards one another.
I saw Fr. Wach in a picture with the Pope. Must have been the first time in many years he’s ever worn a black cassock. I love the Institute, but they certainly represent to the highest degree what Francis detests about the TLM.
Our FSSP priests go to the Chrism mass, but do not concelebrate.
Yes, I've been told that too.
Confusing words.
Watch the actions!
Thank you Mark Lambert for making distinctions among the different groups and charisms, especially the FSSP. I entered full communion with Rome through the FSSP where I attend. Thanks, too, for your invitation to our Holy Father and others to see where the Holy Spirit is at work: as you point out, with the TLM we find thriving vocations, numerous young folk and extended families. Where did I read online, “If your congregation isn’t crying, it’s dying”? Let the synodal church “listen to” and “accompany” those signs of the Spirit!
Glad to support the work of “Catholic Unscripted.”
I can vaguely remember the transition from the Tridentine Liturgy to the current form. If I remember correctly, it did not happen overnight. The first change, I think, was to have the Scripture readings read first in Latin and then in English. At that time, the Knox translation was used - in 1966 the Jerusalem translation replaced this. I cannot now remember the order of events and it would be interesting to find out just when each change happened. The most obvious change, of course, was the installation of a Protestant style communion table, to replace the Altar and having the Priest face the congregation. The first use of English involved translating the existing Tridentine form into English, so that the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel remained for a time. Then, when a Commission was set up, which included a large number of Protestant advisers, they insisted that the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar be removed (since the Altar was now a Protestant style communion table and the connection with the Old Testament Altar was not accepted by the Protestants who carried the most weight on the Commission). Then, they insisted upon the removal of the Last Gospel - many Protestants adopt one or other version of the Arian heresy and they consider that the reference to “the Word” in the first chapter of the Gospel of John is to the Sacred Scriptures, rather than to Jesus Christ, as the Catholic Church believes. Then they insisted upon the removal of the Prayer to St. Michael. Then, since there were a number of the Committee who espoused the Universalist heresy, they insisted that the very words of consecration of the wine be changed to embrace this, so that the Scriptural words “shed for you and for many” were changed to “shed for you and for all”. The surprising thing is that then, for the next forty years, the wrong form of words was used for the consecration of the wine in the Catholic Church, while those Protestant Churches which believe in the real presence in some form, continued to use the correct words. So, the question arises, would one have been more likely to have received the real presence in the Church of England, which used the correct words of consecration or in the Catholic Church, which did not. Pope Benedict XVI finally said “enough is enough” and changed the words back to the correct Scriptural form and made some other changes to the English translation of the Mass to restore it to the correct form. The fact is that the changes to the form of the Mass go beyond those contemplated, and, more to the point, authorised, by Sacrosanctum Concilium. As a matter of doctrine, only a later Ecumenical Council can override the teaching of an earlier Ecumenical Council, so that the current form of the Mass is not, in fact, authorised by the Second Vatican Council - it is a mish mash thrown together by a Committee including a number of Protestants, who wanted a communion service acceptable to Protestants in the hope of a move towards ecumenism.
After the 1962 Missal came the 1964 Missal. The psalm judica me Deus was deleted, but the confiteor was said at the foot of the altar in the vernacular. The readings were given in vernacular languages, but the Canon remained in Latin. From 1964 to 1969 there were many piecemeal changes, until the coup de grace, the 1969 novus ordo, all vernacular Mass of Paul VI.
@@kitstr Thank you. In my view, the “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar” were particularly inspiring. Of course, there is no reason at all why, arriving a few minutes before the start of Mass, one should not read these privately. After all, they are all taken directly from the Psalms and we are encouraged to read the Sacred Scriptures. These prayers have not, therefore, been abolished, they are simply no longer included in the Liturgy.
Very well explained and expressed. Thank you.
@@royquick-s5n Very true. In the early Church in the West, the vernacular was Latin, the common tongue, the Vulgate. Educated Romans spoke Greek and there was strong resistance to having the Mass and the Sacred Scriptures in the vulgar tongue. Eventually, the vernacular was used. For centuries, Latin remained a spoken language. Queen Elizabeth 1 spoke it fluently,since it was the language of international diplomacy. When she received the Polish Ambassador, he had brought an interpreter with him, as he assumed that a Protestant Queen would not be fluent in Latin. The Queen launched into such fluent Latin that the Ambassador found it difficult to keep up! You are right about receiving communion standing, in the hand. This has been the continuous, unbroken, tradition in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
This move to Ecumenism has been revealed to have been a move to Secularism.
Shameful response to the release of Julian Assaunge by Mark
Thank you all. Are you driving Dear Gavin to drink? He's glugging it back
😅we hope not
@@catholicunscripted - Bergoglio would drive anyone to drink.
The High Church drink. The Low Church eat.
Or the High Church drink Bordeaux, the Low Church drink Coke.
I believe the Pope's intention in meeting with Fr. Wach is simply part of his attempt to corral the various orders using the Traditional rite exclusively thus effectively sidelining them. Other orders that have not been founded for that reason, like the Missionaries of Divine Mercy who are essentially bi ritual, can have their members re educated.
And excuse me if I am too harsh sir, but the Pope the leader of a massive Church should not be saying one thing and then slams you the other way. You laugh but it is not funny in matters of FAITH. The truth can not be changed to fit out times.
The FSSPs meeting with the Pope was chsrscterisd by abject grovelling. PF was very pleased by this and said these guys are okay. I imagine the ICKSP interview would be similar, if they had any sense.
Exactly 💯. Says it all doesn't it?
Our FSSP go to the Chrism Mass, but do not concelebrate.
Wach, pronounced "Vak" !
Good time to be alive, a good time to be Catholic. Viva Cristo Rey!
Good time to be alive, a good time to be Orthodox!
Just one simple correction if I may, the FSSP priests in our diocese, do celebrate the chrism mass with our bishop.
.....oh, not great
@@marcokite Why is it not great?
Once a year right? I'd take that.
That’s great, I know it had previously caused problems, glad it’s resolved there.
Celebrate or be present at the Chrism Mass? My FSSP priest has said the latter.
Really enjoy listening. Thank you.
Encourage tradition; abolished phagatree.
Very wrong about Julian Assange. He broke no law.
Catch our daily news with a silver or gold membership to hear Gavin and Katherine’s perspective
Mark's take on this was breathtakingly uninformed.
Exactly. He wasn't even charged with anything. As far as I know.
@@buttersstotch6389
Yes, agree.
They need to stop playing with souls. Praying for conversion, repentance and reparation for all those responsible. 🙏🏻📿🕊️❤️🔥
Excellent topic. Good discussion. Gavin has done justice to that 🍺
Unfortunately I’m unable to share your mirth on the good priest’s name. Perhaps another time.
I've been reading a book called "Work of Human Hands: A theological critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Rev. Anthony Cekada. He goes into some great detail on the changes to the liturgy and why it was done. Worth a read for anyone concerned about the abolishment of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Why does Gavin insist on using the F word so flippantly? There are Catholics who struggle with SSA and are living chastely and such language is hardly being encouraging or charitable to them.
There are a lot of other channels where they can get all of that. I doubt that ìs part of the mission here.
@@Bob.W. But why use a derogatory slur? It is hardly befitting a Christian and goes against the Catechism. "They [homosexuals] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity" 2258.
@frumaatholoid how is it any more a slur than queer or the other terms they use?
Perhaps, as a recent convert, Gavin wishes to imitate the Holy Father as closely as possible. Accounts from Rome indicate that, when in private, the language used by the Holy Father would make a sailor blush!
@@Bob.W.it’s a word used to denigrate and demean people.
Yes certainly.
Is the "Pope" Holy? Is the "Pope" faithful to Jesus Christ?
Do you realize you sound like an anti-Catholic Protestant? These are the same kind of comments I see from Protestant trolls on Catholic channels. There are definitely problems with Pope Francis, but we should be careful not to sound like them.
fssp was born out of sspx
Love you guys and always keen to hear your thoughts but with respect the use of the F pejorative lowers the tone rather than raises the argument. I would rather it not be used at all let alone with apparent relish as it does nothing to assert the traditional teachings of the Church on same sex attraction, is unsupportive of people currently endeavouring to bear that particular cross especially as part of groups like Courage International and plays right into the hands of those who wrongly accuse Catholics of hate. You don’t have to be James Martin, God forgive him, to recognise that hating the sin comes way behind hating the sinner for some people when it comes to this issue, so please don’t encourage them. The additional irony is that this slur, and most people to whom it applies take it as such, is thought to have been directed not at them but at traditionally minded seminarians which is disgraceful. Either way it gives the same vibe as when rappers refer to women or particularly mothers.
Thank you. Noted.
Thank you. I appreciate you all very much and know that was not the intention.
HELP, you guys & gal!
We're confused -- WHY Pope Bergolio's Vatican seems to HATE the TLM while at the same time cozy's up to the TLM of the SSDP and FFSP, etc.
please explain "this game". PLEASE. Thank you.
One reason the so-called trads' consistently play victim is because of their vocal and shameful defiance and insults directed at The Holy Father.
Why is it that the most faithful Catholic Christian have toi suffer with Christ because of the holy father? Is he really the holy father if the faithful have to suffer loss and anxiety because of his BS?
It's called Summer.
Has pettiness infected the Vatican?
Yes. Pettiness and worse.
If it was only pettiness!
THANK THE GOOD LORD for the SSPX.
Bergoglio is the schismatic.
That's not the view of the SSPX, which has just distanced itself from Archbishop Vigano.
Mall uyanadhe hamadhama paduru kana kapana vadaamana karannaa
Obai dan Kiva uthu kanyaa soho uriyo malldha nath nam naga kanyaaviyodha
Pope Francis is not persecuting tradition, because sacred tradition isn’t confined in a . Single liturgy. That is a fallacious premise
What has happened is that radical traditionalists have attempted to subvert the Magisterium using the liturgy as a proxy for refusal to submit to the Holy See and repent loudly attacked the Pope.
O thank goodness, you are not selling silver and gold, lol. I almost had a kniption fit. 😂
Very good work to bring all of this to attention. Pity though that Mr Ashenden has to be part of the team. His rather patronising and sarcastic remarks remind me of the unpleasantness in the Anglican Church which I left 40 years ago.He seems delighted to be using that derogatory slur against homosexuals. It's alright because the Pope does it? I'm sure there are many priests and lay people of 'homosexual orientation' who live exemplary lives of chastity for the sake of their holy catholic religion.
Well, at a general level, I do, of course agree with you. We should be imitators of Christ, not of Pope Francis - in particular, not imitators of Pope Francis in his choice of language! To be fair, Pope Francis has declined to accept the title of “Vicar of Christ”. It seems clear enough that, if he is Vicar for someone, it is not Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. “By your fruits you shall know them” and true Christians do not choose deliberately to use bad, offensive or insulting language.
I think his use of a pejorative word was rhetorical.
Why does Mark keep calling Bergoglio the 'Holy Father'? very strange.
Why do you troll this channel to make trouble? Very strange. You have your own autocephalous orthodox church.
What do you call the head of your autocephalous orthodox church? Do you just use his last name?
It's the pope's formal title. Or courtesy title, how the popes are normally addressed. Does not refer to the man's personal holiness.
Francis is a coward so he can’t do anything hard directly. He has to have a henchman do it!
Let's say he's going about it in a diplomatic way.