Red Dots Shouldn't Break
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
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The same service life as the pistol it’s mounted too seems reasonable.
100% agree. At the end of the day optics are finite devices and aren't an exception to the fact that everything has a failure rate, but with the quality that companies have been able to put forth, a high quality red dot may even outlast the shooter depending
Ben's hair game is on point
Totally agree. It's fairly simple electronics after all. G-shocks don't break and they are much more complicated these days
Your watch isn’t being whipped around on a reciprocating pistol slide hundreds of times every range session. I bet if someone rigged up a pistol recoil simulator you’d break a GShock in fewer than 10,000 “rounds”
@@k0r3andud3 lot of people shoot wearing them. Thats why I used it as an example. It takes some recoil while on your wrist. Of course not the same amount as a gun itself
Casio makes a Gshock red dot and I am a buyer!
Ben, nice outlet covers.
I don’t have problems with the dots themselves, it’s keeping them on the slide.
That really hasn't been an issue for a few years now at least. There are a ton of plates made of any material you need with quality hardware, and purpose built guns and dots.
@@Rdctd6969 and loctite, and torque drivers. I've had ONE dot come off a plate, and it was my fault (using screws that were too short). I just used what the plate company sent, and after contacting them they had some go out with the incorrect screws. They sent me new ones and the optic has been solid since.
Good info thanks! I don't think you are wrong given the pricing and offerings available plus the advances in tech dots should be fairly long term usable now. I shot nowhere near your or big time comp guys of course but hopefully you are right that they mostly work. I do have a few budget ones (cyelee and zulisy) that if they have issues not sure I can whine, but holoson, trijicon, and the vortex xl (just ordered waiting to get it) will be expected to last better or be properly supported by the company if issues occur.
I’d agree. I will say if I’ve learned anything about hard use items is they should come with a lifetime warranty. If it doesn’t and it’s a gun - I’m not buying it.
I did have an issue with my SRO and the LED dimming under recoil after a few years of use. I don’t keep track of number of rounds expended but if I’d guess I’d say around 5,000-10,000. I replaced the battery, messed with it some, and finally contacted Trijicon. They took it in, examined it, and replaced it.
It took a month or so but I now know that was in the lead up to the new Trijicon closed emitter and other optics coming online and being released. So, I know inventory was short on hand.
I still have a good opinion of Trijicon but I’m watching these Vortex optics closely and that’s probably what I’ll put on my second Glock 34 I use.
I have a R1P. 8k rounds. Battery every year. Keeps plugging away. Nothing fancy, just works.
I did try the EFLX. That lasted 200 rounds before it broke and it’s too dim for my old eyes anyway. Now it’s fixed and sitting on the shelf.
Sounds correct. The vast majority of shooters are not going to shoot their dot to death. Even a lot of competition shooters or just guys who shoot a lot are probably getting the next new thing before the life of their dot ends. The life cycle / failure rate of dots is pretty long nowadays enough that I think no one needs to worry about it assuming it’s a quality dot from a reputable company.
Funnily enough, a local police chief I had the chance to speak to said he doesn’t trust red dots because they fail too often. And when I asked him what he meant by failing because I have only seen a couple actually fail out of hundreds. He said “well that tells me you’re not law enforcement and have no experience because officers constantly step up to the line and the dots don’t work because the batteries are dead”
So I guess they’re not allowing them to drive cars anymore because they also run out of gas… that gas comment ended our conversation haha
I have an rmr right now with a battery put in it in July 2021. Hasn’t even flickered.
@@SNW_36 I have one as well that’s not been changed for quite a while, maybe two years or so… but honestly if people changed their batteries once a year like everyone recommends then no one would have an issue
@@ApertureDefense I’m right there with you. I decided to see how long a battery would last and it’s made it past my expectations. Change it once a year, you will be more than good to go. Funny thing is, I have an Aimpoint PRO that kills a battery in a year. I just bought an ACRO a few months ago and I’m interested to see what the battery goes for in that.
"Constantly step up to the line" lmao
Truth is most cops rarely train, many have less experience than the average gun owner and, frankly, many have no business handling a firearm.
@@SpartanD63 that’s a fact. I know quite a few officers in my local area and none of them are shooters, many are barely capable enough to pass the already joke of a qualification. For the record, when he said “constantly step up to the line” I immediately assumed “the two times a year they qualify”
There’s obviously a larger systemic problem going on in law enforcement training but a huge portion is due to the guys literally just not caring enough about the skill which can be read into to say they don’t care about saving anyone’s life, their own life, their fellow officers life, or making it back home to their own families at the end of the day which is unfortunate to say the least
I have a couple of SRO’s, RMR T2’s, a DPP and a EO Tech EFLX being delivered today. None of the Trijicons or the DPP have given me any issues. We will see about the EFLEX. *I do not intentionally slam my stuff on concrete.
I've broken 3 DDP. To their credit they gave me my money back after the last one broke. It took about 2 years to run through the dots - none of them lasted past 15k.
I shoot a direct mill s2, it's hard on dots from what I hear.
I'm trying out the new Romeo x pro, it seems like it's built well but the window is small. If it lasts I'm ok with a smaller window, it took some adjusting but it seems fine.
If the new vortex came out in time I would have tried it. It has a dpp footprint.
Burris Fastfire 4...I'm on my 5th one in 2 1/2 years. It's mounted on an open division pistol...first one, after 2 months, glass fell out...2nd one, dot stopped working...3rd one, lasted about 8 months (6K rounds) then the dot scattered into a half dozen fragments of light (no bueno)...4th one, after a few days, lost zero couldn't get it back. 5th one I mounted on a PCC maybe it will hold up there. Burris has replaced all of the malfunctions but geez REALLY. I have many Holosons, in the past 12 years, all of them are rock solid.
FWIW, I have 4 or 5 SRO’s. One failed on a pistol after 3 yrs of shooting it in CO. Round count was probably around 75k. Trijicon replaced it. Had a stock Glock front sight fly off after only a few hundred rds. iron sights fail, optics fail, stuff breaks. People get bent over these “this vs that, which is better” discussions. Point shooting is part of a complete skill set. Shoot often, shoot well, and know your limits (with and without sights).
Thanks for the answer.
My personal standard is kinda arbitrary, 40k rounds just because I read somewhere that was the testing procedure for the RMR, and I believe nowadays that should be the standard for a reliable dot.
I shoot regularly, probably 30k-40k rounds per year (ipsc prod optics). Started with one gun one dot, at around 30k I bought a second gun for matches only, the other gun is now dedicated to training (glock 17, holosun 407k, still no issues).
I like the SRO. I have 3, two with over 6k one with over 3k. All around 3 years old. One got damaged and trijicon had it back to me around two weeks.
My Vortex Viper, mounted on my Prodigy, loses vertical zero. I've checked the mount numerous times. Not many rounds at all shot with it, less than 1000. Luckily Vortex has a great warranty so it will be going back.
Exactly. The best gear just works and you don't have to think about it.
That’s not always the case .. again IF a failure occurs is the weapon still usable or is it done for the fight ?
One of my SROs is at the Trijicon shop right now being looked at to repair or replace. I have two SROs and they both died after about 5 years. Trijicon replaced the first one I sent to them after almost two months of it being at the Trijicon shop for inspection.
My buddy also had an SRO and had the same experience. Less than 5 years of use for him and about two months at the shop for an eventual replacement. Might be a incredible coincidence, but the only 3 SROs I've had personal experience with all died around 5 years.
I also had a Holosun HS507C-X2 that started blinking after a year of use and I sent it in and they sent me a new one in one week from the day it arrived at their shop. I'm not a high volume shooter so I'd say I maybe shoot around 4,000 rounds per year at most.
Just throwing this info out there for anyone, or no one.
My sro wouldn’t turn on. Changed battery and in the process i broke the terminals. From the time i sent it in to the time i got it back was approximately two weeks. Of my three Sro’s only one broke and it was my fault. Mine are about 3 years old now. Two have over 6k on them and one has over 3k on it.
I haven't had to deal with Trinicon warranty but my Holosun experience was kinda bad. Took like a month to get my 507c back after it wouldn't turn on with any battery or using the solar panel. Had no contact with them after getting the shipping label. Still got replaced though. Vortex warranty is stupid easy to deal with and I had a quick experience with them.
I've had terrible experiences with Holosun's warranty. I had a 507C that came with the circle dot canted and they told me to kick rocks. Vortex has a stellar warranty but I'm not a fan of their red dots as their refresh rate is terrible. Trijicon I've never had one fail yet but I've been told their warranty is pretty damn good.
I just buy Trijicon RMRs, SROs and RMR HDs now. Going on 8 of them in total and I'm slowly phasing out my Holosuns for Trijicons. Holosun really put a a bad taste in my mouth with basically telling me an obvious issue wasn't an issue. They lost a great customer that day.
100K or better would make my wallet happier. I haven't had an issue with the Trijicon SRO (have 3) or 2nd gen RMR, Holosun (all) have been solid. I hope Vortex has it together on their new optic, I had so many failures on the Viper (running on a M&P Pro) in Carry Optics. I had 3 dots in rotation: one on gun, one in bag as spare, one back at Vortex getting fixed/replaced.
Soeaking of failure of gear, what do you bring with you in case of failures? Things like recoil springs, extra optics, etc.
Just bought a 507Comp a few weeks ago. It took 7 rounds to break the emitter. Was doing an initial sight-in group at about 5yds and suddenly dot shifts to upper left corner of glass. Sent to Holosun Monday for warranty repair/replacement. We'll see what the turn-around is on that. I don't have a lot of faith in Holosun at the moment...
I have one that's been running fine for a year, at around 1500-2000 rounds. But I've also had a friend that broke 2 holosuns before. So I guess your mileage may vary.
All things break .. the idea is when and if they do are you prepared to continue fighting with the weapon or is it now useless ? Batteries die, internals wear and just General hard usage causes failures .. again if it was a duty weapon would you still be in the fight with a good set of sights or ?
Ive got 4500 through my type 2 Rmr, no issues, 2k through a holosun k, no issues so far so good
I agree and I'm not wealthy so I will be using my SROs until the next major technology leap and reinvestment.
Ben I want to know what arcade machines those are in the background.
I shoot a lot, though not as much as Ben. I expect the red dot to last a long time. I shoot in USPSA, IDPA and Steel Challenge and at the range for practice. I probably shoot close to 15,000 rounds a year, and I expect my red dot to just always work. I have the Holsun 507 comp on a Walther Q5 SF Match pro.
It'd be interesting to see which pistols of the same caliber and same mounting damages more rds.
Hydraulic buffers, magnetic buffers, different spring systems. More life, less wear.
I don’t think there should be a limit on round count. To me one of the most important things is quality of the glass. I hate when the glass gets scratched up easily. I shoot a lot of comped pistols, and I feel like the carbon scratches glass on cheaper dots . Thats why I stick to Trijicon
4 CMor’s under heavy use - never a single problem with any.
I went through three sigsauer maxes. The first two after a few months would not hold zero. The last one the panel to turn it on or off up or down works only if you hit it just right.
Two Romeo pros - the glass has cracked on both. The good thing about Sig. is they back them well I have a new one coming.
As long as it serves the purpose of you using it, is how long it should last. What do you think about when people say " Oh well I don't like the glass on (insert whatever RDS). If you are shooting the red dot correctly, the glass shouldn't matter right? Aka occluded shooting.
I saw a couple of videos come out less than a year ago showing immense dissatisfaction over the reliability of the ACRO P2 and the Holosun EPS. Namely, that they were breaking under normal use. I haven't heard of this happening to the RCR at all, however.
So long as dots are being used as designed, one could argue using the dot to rack the next round as part of the design. So long as it has been torqued to spec, and the materials for the screws are to spec, I think 56k rounds is very reasonable. I think the average round count for all shooters is 12k rounds annually. There are those in the 30k range, and more in the 1k or less. But most of the competitive shooters are around 8-12 k range. That’s about 4 years of usage that the company is testing for. I think that’s pretty fair.
Ever since I started putting dots on my pistols, I've been using them to rack slides. I even hammered on a pretty cheap one - Sig Romeo Zero - to clear a stuck round and didn't manage to break it. Using them that way makes too much sense. Worst side effect I've had is leaving prints on the glass.
Yeah, like any tool or consumer products, a cheap one is probably not going to get to 5,000. But a mid-tier should last the average Joe forever, a serious shouter a couple years at least , and high end shoot last everyone a lifetime.
As a production shooter I have no input.
However, Ben: what holster did you use for Beretta 92? I wanna get a 92x Performance but struggling to find good holster that will be a good fit for your BOSS hanger
Time Crisis!
How many times have u had to change out any part in that glock that u have all those rounds in? Just gathering data
At this point my guess is that the shot impulse isn't an issue anymore besides extreme environmental outliers. They should withstand everything their test hand guns deal with. 80k + the abuse.
RDS with on board round counter would be cool. I wonder if cam stabilization will find its way into rds. They somewhat agreed to mounting them on the slide behind the ejection port, enforced via competition rules to keep building handguns the same way for half a century. It can move but the whole mounting could be improved beyond screws. With all the cuts in the slides these days, it should allow for different repeatable mounting along the slide, making space for different accessories. If you build the rail space, they'll come.^^
if you buy a red dot, expecting to need to replace it after firing x number of rounds while the pistol is still going strong, you should have bought a different red dot.
I view optics as durables and barrels as consumables. An optic should outlast a slide.
If optics don't break, how are manufacturer's going to stay in business? Three ways to look at optics and manufacturers:
1. a cheap optic that fails rather quickly but it is so inexpensive that you don't bat an eye when you buy it again
2. a decent optic for a reasonable amount of money that is designed to only last "x" amount of rounds/service life but it lasted long enough that you tell yourself the price was justified for the experience you got in return
3. a well built optic for a "top tier" price that will last long enough and stand the test of time that the only reason you would replace it now is because you want to replace it (i.e. RMR to RMRHD/RCR)
"If optics don't break, how are manufacturer's going to stay in business?"
By coming up with product improvements?
I think you’re right Ben. I don’t think you were average shooter or even someone who likes to train as often as they can should worry about their dot breaking. I believe we’ve reached a point in pistol optic technology and manufacturing where they are plenty reliable and robust. Probably just as reliable as irons. Just this past weekend at a class, someone’s front iron sight went flying toward the berm and not a single dot went down.
QA is the important stat. Of 100 units how many are not assembled to spec.
Just like any other “product”, things will break for sure. But, you engineer some parts in the product that they will never be the first thing to fail.
For example, the hinges on the door of the dishwasher should not break with normal use before the engine of the dishwasher failing.
For me, the pistol “product” is a whole system (light, optic, sights, barrel, springs….etc). I think for a pistol, you should be able to wear out the weakest part in the pistol before the red dot fails.
If pistols should go 100k rounds with just normal wear and tear maintenance and spring replacement, then the red dot in my mind should last that long so I only think about replacing it when I choose to get a new pistol.
I shoot 10-12k rounds a year between 1 training pistol and 2 carry ones (2 Staccato C2’s and the old C single stack). So, my training pistol should last me 10 years at least (about 70-80k rounds with 7-8k rounds a year on it) and my carry pistols with 2-3k rounds on them a year should last until I die.
I don’t think I can expect the red dot to last more than 10-12 years but I also think my carry pistol will become my training pistol when I “retire” my training pistol so I probably wont have it more than 15 years.
TVs became like that. I had a 14 year old TV in the family room that I was begging it to break down so I can get a new bigger one. Finally did. I think pistols and red dots should be at that stage now
The question is why red dots breaks. Is high power factor ammo (close to 140 instead of close to 125) a cause for breaking red dots? or is there other causes?. I feel it is the weak point of my Shadow 2. I see a lot of red dots breaking in my club with less than 5K shots. I am thinking even to increase the main spring as a way of protecting the red-dot...
First issue a dot should have is shearing off the screws at a super high round count
I think it's reasonable to say as you alluded to most shooters are not buying a dot thinking will this last me 10+ yrs. Tech changes, guns change etc so getting 5 yrs of moderate shooting out of it with no problems you have probably gotten your money's worth out of it.
How about a $600 sig romeo 3. I have replaced 3. Free. But they wouldnt zero anymore. The round count was maybe 5k at most.
Forty to 56K I could live with. Probably won't ever get there but if I did wouldn't cry for breakage.
Romeo 3max has entered the chat...
Amazing Answer Translated: How many rounds should a red dot endure before it fails? ALL OF THEM
I’ve never had a red dot break. I only have about 10k through 4 different dots combined though.
I put more quarters in a T2 machine than I can count.
The summer of 1991 was the best. T2 was in theaters all summer, the restaurant near the theater I used to go to had the T2 machine, and then the Black Album came out a few weeks before I started middle school. My generation had it good.
And I almost forgot to mention that I also started shooting during that time! My childhood was pretty rad for the most part.
@@ThePoorBoy I don’t envy your childhood because it sounds eerily similar to mine. Sad But True still hits as hard as T2. 🫵😎
@@umbrellacorpmarketingdept7154 You didn't happen to live in Moreno Valley, CA at the time, did you? 😀
@@ThePoorBoy central VA. Almost as far away as you can get.
I agree with you if you are shooting on a flat range. Most red dots outside of Trijicon are kind of trash in harder use scenarios.
What are you doing to your red dots on the job to destroy them that isn't solved by a safariland ALS/hood system? Biggest problem for me is banging them against things while holstered which a Safariland solves.
@@destroyerofgear Putting them on rifles.
@@tmgjurassic3738 like top mounting them on LPVOs and such?
@@destroyerofgear Yes, especially on 30 cal gas guns. The SCAR destroys optics, the AR10 is not much kinder.
I've broken 2 vortex defenders just from ejected brass hitting the glass...
On what pistol?
New to competitive shooting. Why do shooters not use weapon lights to add weight to the front of the gun?
They do, infact there is lead weights sized to be a cr123 size.
because it doesn't do anything
It really dosnt change much in the way of weight and how the gun acts, only thing it really does is limit holster selection.
Thanks guys!
Ben hates artwork.
Red Dot Sghts should be like most LED lights; they should last AT LEAST 100,000 shots (hours in the case of LEDs) or more...
dot+plate+frame+screws, got SRO failing me on m&p 2.0 metal, got the same extra reliable on cz p10c, and holosun on my g19 indestructible. This is why irons+practice will rule forever. Thank you Ben, learn a hell lot from you. Only thing worrying me: is it safe to lick your ear pro?😊
The actual question people are asking may not be how many rounds it will handle, but more how long will it last if I'm absolutely abusing the crap out of it. Things like banging it off car doors, dropping it on concrete from 4 stories up, doing one-handed failure to fire drills off a metal I-beam, letting my dog gnaw on it, firing buckshot at it point blank.
So many people will call an optic fragile, but want to treat it like a Toyota Hilux on Top Gear.
Get an RMR. I got one for playing airsoft. Glued a piece of plexiglass to the front to protect it from getting shot, screwed it on to a Glock, turned it on, and then proceeded to treat it like shit for a couple years. Had it in a level 1 thigh holster for the first year and I lay on top of it, crawled through dirt, banged it against walls, did the single-handed racking etc etc etc. That thing is scratched to hell and has a gouge on one of the buttons but still runs fine. It lives on one of my real Glocks now and just keeps shining that big red dot without a care in the world.
HMMM Time Crisis, that was fun. Also, red dots are great but break like everything else. Run it till it quits and move on brother
My car has all sorts of electronic gizmos and sensors that have worked through shock and temperature changes for almost 20 years.
They should be able to build me a little box that reflects light onto glass, that I can bolt onto a Glock and not worry about. We have the technology.
Chris from regular guy training had a Holosun delaminate and pop out after about 40k rounds. Pretty good I'd say.
So my... maybe 5k per year should pretty much make it indestructible? And it will outlive me? I'm good with that.
👍
Or at least outlast the current Iphone generation
50-100k rounds i guess. I haven't had issues with the rmr or sro so im sticking with them.
I own 3 - 2 from Holosun 1 from Swampfox. I’m not sure long term about the Swampfox but other then the optic seeming to have a wandering zero when dropped they don’t break. Just need to adjust zero.
Just bought an RCR so that I never have to replace it. It’s going on a Glock. I like things that just work.
Iron sight master race 🏆🥇 LOL
I heard a great question in a prepper sub reddit.
Will the dot work after a CME or EMP? Or will a bunch of people have useless equipment stuck on their slides? 🤔
Iron sights are the stick shift of the gun world for sure. Just getting into dots and they are nice on my older eyes.
Pro tip: Don’t buy shit optics.
I think that compact dots should last about 20k and regular dots about 50k.
Holosun warranty is lifetime on everything but the emitter. It’s 10 years on the LED.
They won't fix mine
@@rampage_pwny3063 interesting. I’ve had a few go back and every time it was painless.