It's like we say all the time: in new games a weak character doesn't get to autopilot enforce their gameplan for free and in old games a bad character is like "my moves literally do not function properly"
As far as I'm concerned, there are two tiers in SF6. The tier where the character gets to be strong with no downsides, and the tier where their strong thing is so strong that Capcom had to give them obvious weaknesses.
@@gamelord12Completely agree, as soon as I started thinking about characters like Zang, Lily and Jamie being bad, I have no idea how capcom would buff them, a little tweak can skyrocket them to top tier
You go into the wiki for old games and it's like "this move is -30 on hit due to a programing error" or "this move is supposed to have a hitbox but it never comes out" or "This multi hit DP is bad because the opponent will fall out before the last hit and have time to counter you"
People have a very antiquated idea of the Low vs Top Tier dynamic- Which is understandable as we get most of our terminology and understanding of FGs from the groundwork laid by oldschool players, but it’s absolutely a paradigm that’s inhibiting people from understanding how modern FGs function in most cases. Usually, unless the Top Tiers are unbelievably broken (like, A-B Tier Characters can’t even compete with the S Tier,) then Low Tiers are just kind of Mediocre, but perfectly usable and often with their own cheesy strengths and win conditions. Compare this to older games, where bottom tiers didn’t have any tools that weren’t significantly worse versions of a Mid-Tier’s still-outclassed tools, or outright had attributes that made them borderline non-functional.
Reminds me of how, before he changed how he did tiers altogether, Lord Knight always prefaced his tier lists with what his tiers meant and how, based on those meanings, basically no characters in the most modern games were D tier or lower, because a character being that low starts to mean there are some serious problems with them. I also think of a KI tierlist I saw a while back where the lowest tier was B, presumably because it was made with similar logic. Yet people playing SF6 and Strive put characters in D, and it's probably because they just think tiers are supposed to go that low and someone HAS to go there, and then people just aren't even talking about the same things anymore.
Look at modern tier lists (DBFZ, Strive, SF6) where pro players will put characters between column S+ to B/C at worst. The worst character in a roster will likely still be ok.
I've been told (idk if it's true) that cultural paradigm shifts tend to be about 20 years behind the actual current state of the world. As in whatever knowledge we have now in the present, takes about 20 years to be absorbed and properly integrated into the culture and become the new "norms". Now with that said, video games are a fairly new medium historically speaking and while there certainly is a culture within the video game sphere it might function on a different timescale than the broader societal culture. Especially considering how fast things at least seemingly tend to move on the internet.
Potemkin in Strive struggles to get in and then gets to do 60%+ like nothing, Potemkin in Missing Link was so bad that the only worse character was Testament if you don't activate the bug that lets him tech moves at all. In a game where literally everything is techable.
I think a big part of that is most people only play online, its easier to accept that a character is good rather than player is better than you when all you can see is the character
Also some people just think the characters carry the players , anything to discredit people who are actually becoming good. Like I played some person on granblue after playing blazbulecf using a new character amane, so he thought I bad at fighting games cause of of I use the character, so we go to gbfv , he uses avatar belial I use the regular one , I slaughter the guy and he got mad cause he's using an way better character. I told him it's not the characters it's the player, doesn't matter what characters you use if I got more time in the gamesbn improving I'll slaughter u causes our mindset are completely different, one is base on the truth that you're playing people and the the stronger the players u play the better u become, vs choosing characters base off tier list or because everyone says this characters is good blah blah blah
I mean after the community has been trashing Gief and claiming Ken/JP are OP, a player winning via reversal with a “bottom tier” character against one of the top tier characters is news worthy.
I’ve seen a lot of them name drop snake eyez several times as one of the scariest players. He delivers an incredible feat and provides great content, love it
Something Sajam didn't get into, but he and Romolla spoke about once, is that regardless of what character you main, you're always being "carried" in some capacity. Whether it's their archetype suiting your playstyle or their own character strengths simply being strong, even if that character is only mid-tier (Romolla used Ky's Stun Dipper into Red RC as an example), there is always something about your main that helps you win. Is there a good chance that you'd go ham if you picked the top tier? Absolutely, but you also need to adjust to that character's strengths and weaknesses and adopt a playstyle that suits that character. Even if you're the best Zangief or Potemkin player in the world and you pick the strongest character in the meta, that doesn't mean you won't have to get used to not having the same tools you once did.
Also worth mentioning that his chop target combo doesn't always connect, because the range of the first chop is longer than the follow-ups. You have to get a counter hit or a drive rush confirm to even attempt it and sometimes it just falls out.
I appreciate that before Top 8 even started, you and Vicious were trying to tell everyone that if SnakeEyez wins, it's 'cause he's just _that_ damn good, not 'cause Gief is a secret top-tier
As a Gief player, I think he is the worst character in the game, but worst is a very relative thing. Worst doesn't mean he is a joke character level like Dan (SF4, not SF5 where Dan was strong lol). He has more weaknesses than the rest of the cast and his strengths don't really make up for it. HOWEVER, as Sajam said he still has strengths that the opponent has to take into account and it is possible to leverage those strengths to find victory. SF6 is balanced enough that even the worst character is still a threat. There are a few things I'd like buffed about Gief, but this isn't some situation where he is F tier and needs to be remade. That being said, Lariat hitting behind him would be cool and maybe giving him one more cancellable move (like st.mk) would do a lot for him. Also make that Level 1 actually hit airborne people lmao.
I second making lariat hit behind him. Just from a move readability perspective it makes zero sense to have a spinny move like that *not* hit behind him.
@@webbowser8834ex lariat yes, otherwise no itd be too stupid buut the level 1 buff tho, that shit is needed, they gave him the sickest level 1 to just not let him be able to hit anything
LVL1 should just function as a DP. Mashing on my wakeup? Hit. Jumped? Hit. Light, light into lariat should be consistent And AT LEAST EX Lariat hitting crossups. Boom, done, fixed Gief and still not as opressive as other chars.
This title is my sentiments 10000000% since childhood! If a single character is what makes a champion, then that same character would repeatedly win all tournaments AND with different players using them. However, examples like this in SF6, Xian winning evo with Gen in SF4, Luffy winning evo with Rose in SF4, AyoRichie winning Golden Letters with Leo, and mf PANDA winning a tournament in T7 is clear cut proof of the pilot of thr character being the determining factor in the end 💯
@@That-KidDo you shoto players are so dishonest having all the tools in the game, I only play honest characters that earn their wins through fundamentals like kimberly and JP
@@meethepie I think you may be mixed up a little bit, Logan Paul is far more dishonest. He has way to many resources to pull from, and some of his moves feel downright scammy.
Snake eyez: if my opponents knew all of Zangief’s weaknesses, winning would be so much harder Sajam: snake eyez is so good. Anyway here’s all of Zangief’s weaknesses
Can’t ever discount or disrespect Mr. Eyez, one of the US’s best players and def one of my favorites. It’s like he sees extra information on screen that we can’t lol, he’s got a special sauce for sure
Thank you for making this video, after snakeeyes won the tournament i knew there would be so many people saying that zangief is totally fine as is. Ive mained gief in both sf5 and 6 and although i do think hes low tier, i have to say i am much happier with how he plays in 6. I understand that vortexes are annoying but they can be just as much of a guess for the gief player. One jumped spd will lead to a gnarly combo. I feel like in 6 i can play a much more consistent game. I dont think its too much to ask for lariat to hit crossup and to be more consistent in combos
SA1 needs some tweaks too. I've seen that super fail to grab things that absolutely shouldn't. Like Marisa's superman punch. That punch loses to every single AA in the game (including Lariat funnily enough) but it phases through SA1.
@@rockmanfan100 I did. And disagree it's only because snake eyez. Gief is better than people give him credit for. You just can't be braindead like the high tiers. In general sajam has awful takes
Players win tournaments. Every single time. "the character that is the weakest is not that weak" Right. And the strongest is not that strong. These games are way more balanced than in the past, or compared to how people talk. I'm not saying there aren't tiers, of course. But the players win tournaments.
Grapplers teach you good defense and reward you for it. Probably why snake eyez is so damn good. Personally I’d love to see him play AC and + R Pot just to see what he could do with some of the best versions of a grappler
+R Pot isn't even the best version of a grappler, and AC Pot is, but for basically no reason that Snake Eyez would have reason to have practiced. AC Pot is good because he can just unblockable loop you for like 70% of your health guaranteed off most hits, not because he's particularly strong at grappling. Hell +R Pot can be argued to be strong because of his high low game, with Pot Buster there as a bonus
I mean fighting games in general do that, like u don't need to be a grapplers to have good defense, (I'm not saying that what u think) For me I learn it because it's an fundamental, if u been playing fighting games for years u have pretty good defense n only improving at ur unless ur playing just to mash
I'm 100% in agreement, but also this won't stop me from clowning on the "literally unplayable" or "game is very unbalanced" crowd. Character strength is a thing, but it's not an valid excuse why you're not Master rank. lol
I think character does matter. But player matters too. That said, your interview with Snake Eyes afterwards was very cool, nice to see genuine interest in the game and you asked good questions. Loved it.
I mean characters are simply there to be put to use for the player, to explore, to find what is possible. without the player characters don't matter. However they become important to the players because we decided who we want to use and learn as we spend time with em, no matter if they're hard , easy, somewhere in the middle. That's what I think
Results help us test our character strength theories. But you cant take small bodies of data and make big conclusions. Also, zangief is almost definitely the worst character but simultaneously he isn't garbage. i give him C tier status. with alot of luck and skill, he can win tournaments. but hes pretty clearly at a disadvantage and deserves some buffs (sajam stated his strengths and weaknesses very well!) I dont think he wins any MU in this game, but absolutely none of the MU are worse than 7/3 probably most at 6/4 or better. He isn't that bad.
I would describe Gief as finicky, in a game where you're put in a lot of situations and having the awareness to capitilize is vital, Gief just straight up betrays you sometimes. The best example is his lvl1, you see people jump and think "hell yeah now I've finally checkmated this guy" but it just whiffs and you die.
A player can only do what the character can do, but the character will only do what the player does. It's a little bit of both IMO, but the player ultimately matters more.
Not just the characters but the mechanics of the game that can alter what is possible for the characters. Characters are good don't get me wrong, like normal ranges, if they have a reversal, can they zone , how fast can they rush the opponent ect. . its mainly the players A good character in the hands of a "bad" player is trash, but an "bad" character is seen as op when played by an skilled player Which leads some people as a group to believe weak character is strong . What makes the difference will always be the players,
Watch his stream and you can see how a good player like him thinks because hes very vocal in everything thats going on in his head at a given moment and you can just see the hours upon hours of him playing sets and constantly asking "what can i do in this scenario, what would be better for me to do here". He's put in a lot of work on his matchups and has a good game plan to get to that scenario where the grappler gets in your head and makes you shit yourself thinking about approaching
What, you're saying I can't pick a top tier and automatically get free wins against "low tiers?" Lol. I watched this exciting set and enjoyed you commentating it. Tier lists sort of go out the window when a player has mastered a character. Tier lists just show the relative strengths and weakness of a character, but a good player can shore up some of the weaknesses of a character and take them far.
Pretty much but I'll add the fact that if a player can recognize their opponent patterns and accomplish their download that an another huge thing. because when it comes to fighting.. well competitive games In general it's always an battle between minds
So what I'm getting is that I should play Zangief so that I can mask my player weaknesses of being unable to anti-air effectively or light confirm as character weaknesses.
I think they were just overly cautious with Gief. On paper the drive rush makes a grappler seem broken. A universal armored strike that's both a guard crush and causes a crumple? A universal dash that acts as a gap closer and gives plus frames and oki? Yeah, you can see how for a grappler that system on paper seems broken.
No doubt in my mind that they were cautious with the grapplers due to the system mechanics given that all 3 grapplers find themselves in bottom 5 currently.
I was talking to a friend a couple days ago, and he was insisting that Gief is trash. Bottom of the barrel trash. I suggested a buff to his OD Lariat to make it a Reversal, and he was like, "Oh hell no, that's broken, he'd be too good then." How can he be trash, and changing one version of one special make him broken? How much would that buff really change Gief?
Snake Eyez just proved how practice and understanding at a pro level will get you places, even with a character with bad moves and the likes. I watched a stream with him going over such stuff and practicing Zangief. He's very good with grapplers and knows what he's doing. Unlike Dale and whining about top tiers while playing MARISA of all characters.
Results do matter on the accuracy of tier lists. Look at what happened with Marissa for example. But I do believe that the mechanics of SF6 can be utilized well by every character and that can shake any matchup with player skill.
0:48 That is basically me man. You literally quoted me exactly word for word. LOL how did you know what I was gonna say without knowing what I was gonna say?
7:05, that MP poke (as you note) only combo's on counter, but more to the point, Gief doesn't move forward while the hits push the opponent back. I have been blown up because I landed a counter hit, swung a second time, and whiffed. Just because it combos doesn't mean it reaches, unlike Ken's or Luke's target combos that advance them forward with each attack.
That sounds outrageous and I don't even play Gief lol TCs dropping on hit like that is the kind of stuff that you'd see in FGs from the 90s and even back then that would be terrible design
Agree with a lot of it, but some things about Gief's gameplan are kinda wrong: "5MP target combo doesn't confirm unless counterhit" True, but the first hit puts them in a strike/throw situation, if they mash they eat the rest of the target combo and if they downback they get siberian express "SPD damage is high, but the oki is bad" which is why he has russian suplex, which does less damage but gives him DR oki agree overall tho, he's a grappler's grappler. highest of highs, lowest of lows, makes him a lot less appealing compared to more consistent characters
This reminded me of the MK11 finals for Evo this year. It was Ninjakilla vs Nicolas, and it was (somewhat unsurprisingly) a Fujin mirror. I was watching on Twitch, and legit the only thing I saw anyone talking about the entire finals was people complaining about Fujin and it being a mirror. I'm not saying Fujin isn't too strong, or that mirrors aren't less interesting. But the sight of endless hordes of people only being able to see which characters were being played, and nobody actually talking about the players themselves (who played out of their god damn minds, mind you) was kind of sad.
Zangief is a bottom 2 character. He's heavily flawed, and has few good matchups, but he's not a *bad* character. Also Snake Eyez is just REALLY fucking good.
Then by your logic, we should ONLY ever see top tier characters top 8 because those are the best players and as close to being the same skill level. Yet the results don’t back up your logic.
@@OberynTheRedViper and we do, statistically they are a majority top toer, look at evo, luke, jp, two kens and a cammy, look at the top 32, jp, ken were the most played there, look at rbr kumite, online tournaments, you don't see a zangief winning every day, it is in fact such a unique thing that people are using it to farm content, you don't see a "how this player did the impossible" when ken won evo, statiscs and meta exists, wether your like it or not.
@@OberynTheRedViper i don't see were the f... numbers don't back up my logic with every tournament being dominated by the same core characters. You've had 30 to 40 tournaments and ONE was won by a lower tier character, how does that not back up my claim? Completely delusional.
I think it's crazy people can still say Zangief's not the worst bc some unreal strong player like snake eyes won a tournament, that guy i remember had won super turbo tournaments as gief and gief is wayyyyy worse in that game and there's demons like claw and boxer in that game that are way cheaper than modern top tiers
Id mostly say Geifs just weird in 6. I've found myself having to kinda play a more bait and punish kinda game rather than trying to bully my opponent into a mix up constantly. Also if we could even just get the od lariat to hit behind id be happy.
Snake Eyez win made me re-evaluate how I view letter in tiers. No longer am I thinking about character strength, but rather their likelihood to win a tournament. So a D-Tier character in a modern fighting game has a 60% chance of winning if played by an OD player. That's not as nice as 80-90% but that's not 0-10% like it currently seems.
The math doesn't add up. You think having a 60% chance to win a tournament is D-tier??? A single player would be a favorite if they had just 20% odds to win a major going into it. Like even the Birds combined weren't a 60% favorite to win EVO.
Pro players (that aren't consumed by UA-cam/Twitter discourse) are almost always reminding people that a tier list is an impression of potential tourney success at most. I like tier lists but damn people gotta chill and just being be willing to accept that "low tier" nowadays normally just means "works harder" rather then being a bad character.
@@AntanovOCEFGCA lot of people are just new and never played any older games where the lowest tier characters literally could not do anything in some matchups. Like Tager in the earlier Blazblue titles, for example.
@@beam5655Yeah the numbers are obviously way off, and framing it around a character's likelihood to win kind of misses the whole point of this video. But I think the general idea is still valid. A character's strength is like a modifier that's applied multiplicatively to any given player's likelihood to win. The strongest characters might give a modifier of slightly more than 1. The weakest might give slightly less than 1. But there are so many other factors that, when combined, have a much higher impact on a player's likelihood to win a tournament.
So in F1 you have a Lewis Hamilton who's very highly skilled, and with a top tier car like Mercedes was from 2014-2020, he wins nonstop. But once the car rules changed and now the Mercedes isn't as strong as it used to be. Well now he's placing top 5 instead of winning all the time. It's true the players skill is more important, but it'd be ignorant to acknowledge the quality of the character they use.
if his command grab left you a little closer to your opponent that alone would be a fair buff, but lariat not hitting behind should just be done as a fix rather than a buff these are the only buffs he need i think
People put too much stock in Tiers, just because "low-tier" characters have limited tools or situations they can set up, that doesn't mean that those low-tiers can't win. Low-tier characters just have to work harder for the win.
@@666slateran666 It's how they'e designed in modern games and they ALWAYS suck. Landing your command grab giving you high damage shouldn't be your only reward. In old games they also had decent combos and good oki outside the command grab so their gameplan was complete, and it was fine. I play against +R Potemkin everyday, and he has all of this, and it's fine. World isn't dead over it.
@@Nooctae Yeah because he's in a fucking anime game that has Wildin' character design. Everyone is broken in older GG its the only way its remotely balanced. Pretty apples and oranges to the OG grappler design. Notice pot is literally the only one with that archetype in the history of GG and they just give everybody a command grab instead.
Reynald was going to win a super close first set but fucked up the hit confirm to close it out which gave Snake Eyez the room to force a reset. The reset Reynald was... obviously not playing as well as he was before. Getting your mental shattered by a small mistake made at the worst time is something that can happen at any skill level and has nothing to do with the characters being played
People focus on the "meta" and only cares about it, the best players who want money usually run the most broken characters they say they are and everyone do the same. So when another guy putting effort and skill take one of those "lower tier characters" and develop it he can simply destroy others because his skill is put on the character and since his matchups are usually the same 3-5 he can prepare better, while the "top tier pros" have no fuking clue on how to fight that characters since they only know "It is not that good". This is why I hate when the people with the actual skill to carry the characters and show off chose to main the top tier characters and go the easy way, which is the most common western ideology. This is also why sometimes a top tier character got barely nerfed and suddenly one who was below become broken or super good when actually it was since before but people didn't care to even try or went for the one others told was better.
They should give Zangief his Green Hand back. It helps to cancel fireballs while building meter, and helps to make better combos while advancing towards the opponents face
How to buff Gief: 1- More combo routes 2- L and OD SPD should give him Oki, period 3- Fix Lariat pls 4- SA1 should be an actual anti-air 5- Tundra Storm, nuff said.
Honestly, just do your brain cells a favor and turn off Twitter immediately after big tournaments. I barely keep up with fighting game stuff at all and my living-under-a-rock ass knows that Snake Eyez is and has been absolutely sick with Zangief for years across multiple games.
People forget that general fighting games, and competitive are different worlds. Tier lists matter so much less in tournament because the players are at such a high level. Think back to sf4, by the end of that games era, every single character on the roster has won a tournament. J Wong literally destroyed some dudes with DAN once, and won the tournament. At a high level, the player matters much more than the character
I main Ares in Igau, and I got so much smack talk after Nickolas (iirc) won a Frosty Faustings with him. To this day I still don't know how he beat CW!
i’d like to know your opinion about what Nemo said about fief’s lariat if you saw it. basically he was saying it’s fine cause he gets big damage off of it if you OD it then do his air command grab and you can just walk back anti air
Don’t know why this is even treated like an either-or situation, why can’t we just admit that character strength/matchup and player skill/matchup are all factors in whether you win or lose and move on.
Lariat hit behind? Wooooh there, OD lariat leads to 4100 dmg. If it hit behind him as well you would have zero ways out and if you ever tried to jump on him it would be 40% of your health no matter how you positioned it. Three hits into lariat i buy but lariat hitting both sides? Hell no.
@@dancinginfernalthat is his archetype bro your supposed to tank everything then deliver the same amount of damage in one blow, and of the mix character choses right, tou lose about 2k of life. if gief choses right, he does about 3-4k damage and he has more healt
@@ΚρανίΩ Compare Gief to someone like Potemkin. Potemkin has multiple options for pressure and escape, and if he reads you correctly he can grab you for 50%, or more. Gief can still grab you, but he has almost no escape tools. No counters (outside of Tundra Storm...I guess?) and no pressure tools. He can barely maintain a combo without drive rush.
@@dancinginfernal No dont compare him to a character from another game. Its not the same at all even though they are grapplers. Secondly his answer to pressure should be great defense which snake eyes showed. I really dont see how you can argue for a 4100dmg antiair that kills all options of getaway for everyone except teleporters unless you have insane character bias.
Reynald forgot JP can do combos for whatever reason. Trying to just hard zone instead of setting up a situations. Also I think people don't credit the side where Snake Eyez is like one of the only 2 people who play gief to that level (maybe kichipamu). He also doesn't run sets with people so he is definitely smartly exploiting matchup knowledge. He wanted to qualify with the online tournament instead of going to EVO and playing a bunch of matches. I fucks with it lol.
It's like we say all the time: in new games a weak character doesn't get to autopilot enforce their gameplan for free and in old games a bad character is like "my moves literally do not function properly"
As far as I'm concerned, there are two tiers in SF6. The tier where the character gets to be strong with no downsides, and the tier where their strong thing is so strong that Capcom had to give them obvious weaknesses.
@@gamelord12interesting take on the modern fg balancing
@@gamelord12Completely agree, as soon as I started thinking about characters like Zang, Lily and Jamie being bad, I have no idea how capcom would buff them, a little tweak can skyrocket them to top tier
You go into the wiki for old games and it's like "this move is -30 on hit due to a programing error" or "this move is supposed to have a hitbox but it never comes out" or "This multi hit DP is bad because the opponent will fall out before the last hit and have time to counter you"
Yeah the "op" and "broken" character status is rare in fighting games now days. The closest we get to that is in ArcSys games with HC and lab coat.
People have a very antiquated idea of the Low vs Top Tier dynamic- Which is understandable as we get most of our terminology and understanding of FGs from the groundwork laid by oldschool players, but it’s absolutely a paradigm that’s inhibiting people from understanding how modern FGs function in most cases.
Usually, unless the Top Tiers are unbelievably broken (like, A-B Tier Characters can’t even compete with the S Tier,) then Low Tiers are just kind of Mediocre, but perfectly usable and often with their own cheesy strengths and win conditions.
Compare this to older games, where bottom tiers didn’t have any tools that weren’t significantly worse versions of a Mid-Tier’s still-outclassed tools, or outright had attributes that made them borderline non-functional.
Reminds me of how, before he changed how he did tiers altogether, Lord Knight always prefaced his tier lists with what his tiers meant and how, based on those meanings, basically no characters in the most modern games were D tier or lower, because a character being that low starts to mean there are some serious problems with them. I also think of a KI tierlist I saw a while back where the lowest tier was B, presumably because it was made with similar logic. Yet people playing SF6 and Strive put characters in D, and it's probably because they just think tiers are supposed to go that low and someone HAS to go there, and then people just aren't even talking about the same things anymore.
Look at modern tier lists (DBFZ, Strive, SF6) where pro players will put characters between column S+ to B/C at worst. The worst character in a roster will likely still be ok.
Yeah like 3rd strike compare Yun to twelve and it's not even close, but JP and geif aren't that different in tiers at all
I've been told (idk if it's true) that cultural paradigm shifts tend to be about 20 years behind the actual current state of the world. As in whatever knowledge we have now in the present, takes about 20 years to be absorbed and properly integrated into the culture and become the new "norms". Now with that said, video games are a fairly new medium historically speaking and while there certainly is a culture within the video game sphere it might function on a different timescale than the broader societal culture. Especially considering how fast things at least seemingly tend to move on the internet.
Potemkin in Strive struggles to get in and then gets to do 60%+ like nothing, Potemkin in Missing Link was so bad that the only worse character was Testament if you don't activate the bug that lets him tech moves at all. In a game where literally everything is techable.
Snake Eyez has been carrying Zangief on his back for years. Let him take it easy for one damn game.
They will never make gief good again after vanilla sf4
@@imtx_xmtiwhat happened in sf4?
@@TimeEnthusiastzangief was arguably the best character in vanilla sf4 and remained top tier for the entire games lifespan
@@stevennobles1227that wasn’t exactly the case, but okay.
He was taking it easy, in sf4. Any time grapplers become good most ppl stop having fun.
Trying to describe player over character strength to FGC hivemind is talking to a brick wall
I think a big part of that is most people only play online, its easier to accept that a character is good rather than player is better than you when all you can see is the character
Also some people just think the characters carry the players , anything to discredit people who are actually becoming good.
Like I played some person on granblue after playing blazbulecf using a new character amane,
so he thought I bad at fighting games cause of of I use the character, so we go to gbfv , he uses avatar belial I use the regular one , I slaughter the guy and he got mad cause he's using an way better character. I told him it's not the characters it's the player, doesn't matter what characters you use if I got more time in the gamesbn improving I'll slaughter u causes our mindset are completely different, one is base on the truth that you're playing people and the the stronger the players u play the better u become, vs choosing characters base off tier list or because everyone says this characters is good blah blah blah
Wild how snake being insane and winning one tournament gives everybody videos
The gold rush for fgc UA-camrs lmao
I mean after the community has been trashing Gief and claiming Ken/JP are OP, a player winning via reversal with a “bottom tier” character against one of the top tier characters is news worthy.
I’ve seen a lot of them name drop snake eyez several times as one of the scariest players. He delivers an incredible feat and provides great content, love it
The UA-cam era of sheep and desperation for views.
@@ZenTeaYou sound so enlightened
Something Sajam didn't get into, but he and Romolla spoke about once, is that regardless of what character you main, you're always being "carried" in some capacity. Whether it's their archetype suiting your playstyle or their own character strengths simply being strong, even if that character is only mid-tier (Romolla used Ky's Stun Dipper into Red RC as an example), there is always something about your main that helps you win.
Is there a good chance that you'd go ham if you picked the top tier? Absolutely, but you also need to adjust to that character's strengths and weaknesses and adopt a playstyle that suits that character. Even if you're the best Zangief or Potemkin player in the world and you pick the strongest character in the meta, that doesn't mean you won't have to get used to not having the same tools you once did.
love watching this video every time snake eyez wins a tournament
Also worth mentioning that his chop target combo doesn't always connect, because the range of the first chop is longer than the follow-ups. You have to get a counter hit or a drive rush confirm to even attempt it and sometimes it just falls out.
They should really make it more consistent. You shouldn't be punished because your character has a janky move.
Chops/5ms not comboing on hit and lariat not hitting behind are two really easy fixes for him
snake eyez is truly just a monster grappler
Player*
@@nigelstanford4this💯
Exactly
I appreciate that before Top 8 even started, you and Vicious were trying to tell everyone that if SnakeEyez wins, it's 'cause he's just _that_ damn good, not 'cause Gief is a secret top-tier
Thank you. Finally some sane discourse.
0:17 This is the hardest burn I've ever heard about somebody losing.
As a Gief player, I think he is the worst character in the game, but worst is a very relative thing. Worst doesn't mean he is a joke character level like Dan (SF4, not SF5 where Dan was strong lol). He has more weaknesses than the rest of the cast and his strengths don't really make up for it. HOWEVER, as Sajam said he still has strengths that the opponent has to take into account and it is possible to leverage those strengths to find victory. SF6 is balanced enough that even the worst character is still a threat. There are a few things I'd like buffed about Gief, but this isn't some situation where he is F tier and needs to be remade. That being said, Lariat hitting behind him would be cool and maybe giving him one more cancellable move (like st.mk) would do a lot for him. Also make that Level 1 actually hit airborne people lmao.
I second making lariat hit behind him. Just from a move readability perspective it makes zero sense to have a spinny move like that *not* hit behind him.
@@webbowser8834ex lariat yes, otherwise no itd be too stupid buut the level 1 buff tho, that shit is needed, they gave him the sickest level 1 to just not let him be able to hit anything
@@ΚρανίΩrashid gets a faster crossup proof anti air special for no meter, why cant gief?
LVL1 should just function as a DP. Mashing on my wakeup? Hit. Jumped? Hit.
Light, light into lariat should be consistent
And AT LEAST EX Lariat hitting crossups.
Boom, done, fixed Gief and still not as opressive as other chars.
Reminds me of when someone won a tournament with a certain weak character in GG Strive and people started to think the character was strong.
This title is my sentiments 10000000% since childhood!
If a single character is what makes a champion, then that same character would repeatedly win all tournaments AND with different players using them. However, examples like this in SF6, Xian winning evo with Gen in SF4, Luffy winning evo with Rose in SF4, AyoRichie winning Golden Letters with Leo, and mf PANDA winning a tournament in T7 is clear cut proof of the pilot of thr character being the determining factor in the end 💯
Not true, if I played Ken then I would win every EVO
dude if I wasn't playing (insert low tier here) I would be bodying you so hard you (insert top tier here) players have it so easy
@@meethepie I would probably be loved by my parents if I just played Ken, but I’m an honest player, so I play Jake Paul
@@That-KidDo you shoto players are so dishonest having all the tools in the game, I only play honest characters that earn their wins through fundamentals like kimberly and JP
@@meethepie I think you may be mixed up a little bit, Logan Paul is far more dishonest. He has way to many resources to pull from, and some of his moves feel downright scammy.
Snake eyez: if my opponents knew all of Zangief’s weaknesses, winning would be so much harder
Sajam: snake eyez is so good. Anyway here’s all of Zangief’s weaknesses
Can’t ever discount or disrespect Mr. Eyez, one of the US’s best players and def one of my favorites. It’s like he sees extra information on screen that we can’t lol, he’s got a special sauce for sure
I'm very grateful for Sajam's presence in the FGC.
Thank you for making this video, after snakeeyes won the tournament i knew there would be so many people saying that zangief is totally fine as is. Ive mained gief in both sf5 and 6 and although i do think hes low tier, i have to say i am much happier with how he plays in 6. I understand that vortexes are annoying but they can be just as much of a guess for the gief player. One jumped spd will lead to a gnarly combo. I feel like in 6 i can play a much more consistent game. I dont think its too much to ask for lariat to hit crossup and to be more consistent in combos
He switched to Kage on SF5
Gief is mid imo
SA1 needs some tweaks too. I've seen that super fail to grab things that absolutely shouldn't. Like Marisa's superman punch. That punch loses to every single AA in the game (including Lariat funnily enough) but it phases through SA1.
Snakeeyez is just such a good player no one is else is doing it like he does
Players always win tournaments. It's always the player.
Character isn't bottom tier and this proves it period
@@666slateran666 did u finished the watching the video
@@rockmanfan100 I did. And disagree it's only because snake eyez. Gief is better than people give him credit for. You just can't be braindead like the high tiers. In general sajam has awful takes
@@666slateran666 who is bottom tier then?
“I did it. I won the CPT.”
- a gold Zangief player
Why did everyone forget that the same player won a semi-major/major with Potemkin like one month ago lol.
Why did you assume people "forgot"? It's a little silly to assume everyone keeps up with every winner in every tournament in every game
LTG probably getting furious hearing that lol
We've been having this conversation fod decades lol. So many people take tier lists as word of god.
Players win tournaments. Every single time.
"the character that is the weakest is not that weak"
Right. And the strongest is not that strong. These games are way more balanced than in the past, or compared to how people talk. I'm not saying there aren't tiers, of course.
But the players win tournaments.
Grapplers teach you good defense and reward you for it. Probably why snake eyez is so damn good. Personally I’d love to see him play AC and + R Pot just to see what he could do with some of the best versions of a grappler
+R Pot isn't even the best version of a grappler, and AC Pot is, but for basically no reason that Snake Eyez would have reason to have practiced. AC Pot is good because he can just unblockable loop you for like 70% of your health guaranteed off most hits, not because he's particularly strong at grappling. Hell +R Pot can be argued to be strong because of his high low game, with Pot Buster there as a bonus
I mean fighting games in general do that, like u don't need to be a grapplers to have good defense, (I'm not saying that what u think)
For me I learn it because it's an fundamental, if u been playing fighting games for years u have pretty good defense n only improving at ur unless ur playing just to mash
I'm 100% in agreement, but also this won't stop me from clowning on the "literally unplayable" or "game is very unbalanced" crowd. Character strength is a thing, but it's not an valid excuse why you're not Master rank. lol
I think character does matter. But player matters too. That said, your interview with Snake Eyes afterwards was very cool, nice to see genuine interest in the game and you asked good questions. Loved it.
I mean characters are simply there to be put to use for the player, to explore, to find what is possible.
without the player characters don't matter.
However they become important to the players because we decided who we want to use and learn as we spend time with em, no matter if they're hard , easy, somewhere in the middle. That's what I think
mmmmmmhhhmmmmmm. The discourse *guy rubbing face meme*
The first gief example you showed was almost one of his trials; which is actually a 3-hit string of lights into Lariat
Results help us test our character strength theories. But you cant take small bodies of data and make big conclusions.
Also, zangief is almost definitely the worst character but simultaneously he isn't garbage. i give him C tier status. with alot of luck and skill, he can win tournaments. but hes pretty clearly at a disadvantage and deserves some buffs (sajam stated his strengths and weaknesses very well!)
I dont think he wins any MU in this game, but absolutely none of the MU are worse than 7/3 probably most at 6/4 or better. He isn't that bad.
I would describe Gief as finicky, in a game where you're put in a lot of situations and having the awareness to capitilize is vital, Gief just straight up betrays you sometimes. The best example is his lvl1, you see people jump and think "hell yeah now I've finally checkmated this guy" but it just whiffs and you die.
Panda winning EVO is by far the best way to explain Players win, not Characters.
A player can only do what the character can do, but the character will only do what the player does.
It's a little bit of both IMO, but the player ultimately matters more.
Not just the characters but the mechanics of the game that can alter what is possible for the characters.
Characters are good don't get me wrong, like normal ranges, if they have a reversal, can they zone , how fast can they rush the opponent ect. .
its mainly the players
A good character in the hands of a "bad" player is trash,
but
an "bad" character is seen as op when played by an skilled player
Which leads some people as a group to believe weak character is strong .
What makes the difference will always be the players,
I gotta be honest, we have seen Snake doing these "impossible" wins since SF4...i dont really understand why people are still surprised.
Cause they're new to the scene.
He also doesnt compete like he used to, despite still playing. Its a rare treat to see snake eyez enter a tourney.
...
BUT HIS ARMS ARE SWINGIN' BACK THERE!!
As someone who is a known grappler hater, I think what snake eyez did was super hype.
As a Gief player he needs the lariat to hit behind and at least have crouchinh MK to be able to cancel.
Appreciated you pointing out the strengths of the character. Helped me understand him more.
Watch his stream and you can see how a good player like him thinks because hes very vocal in everything thats going on in his head at a given moment and you can just see the hours upon hours of him playing sets and constantly asking "what can i do in this scenario, what would be better for me to do here". He's put in a lot of work on his matchups and has a good game plan to get to that scenario where the grappler gets in your head and makes you shit yourself thinking about approaching
You get it. Thank you for the mentality.
What, you're saying I can't pick a top tier and automatically get free wins against "low tiers?" Lol. I watched this exciting set and enjoyed you commentating it. Tier lists sort of go out the window when a player has mastered a character. Tier lists just show the relative strengths and weakness of a character, but a good player can shore up some of the weaknesses of a character and take them far.
Pretty much but I'll add the fact that if a player can recognize their opponent patterns and accomplish their download that an another huge thing.
because when it comes to fighting.. well competitive games In general it's always an battle between minds
Damn you should've wait for a big tournament before getting lily to master it's unreal how many times this has happened
So what I'm getting is that I should play Zangief so that I can mask my player weaknesses of being unable to anti-air effectively or light confirm as character weaknesses.
Infiltration won when nobody trusted SFV's Juri, Bonchan with Nash as well.
These things doesn't make it easier.
This thumbnail is top notch.
You either die an optimal, or you live long enough to see yourselves become a gimmick
I think they were just overly cautious with Gief. On paper the drive rush makes a grappler seem broken. A universal armored strike that's both a guard crush and causes a crumple? A universal dash that acts as a gap closer and gives plus frames and oki? Yeah, you can see how for a grappler that system on paper seems broken.
No doubt in my mind that they were cautious with the grapplers due to the system mechanics given that all 3 grapplers find themselves in bottom 5 currently.
Idk why people are so surprised and feel the need to even talk about this. Zangief functions, why wouldn't he be able to win
Aww, Jam, how I’m supposed to know what video to click on if they don’t say ‘Low tier wins tournament!!!’
Yeah tier lists dont matter as much as they did 20 years ago but happy chaos is happy chaos
I was talking to a friend a couple days ago, and he was insisting that Gief is trash. Bottom of the barrel trash. I suggested a buff to his OD Lariat to make it a Reversal, and he was like, "Oh hell no, that's broken, he'd be too good then." How can he be trash, and changing one version of one special make him broken? How much would that buff really change Gief?
Snake Eyez just proved how practice and understanding at a pro level will get you places, even with a character with bad moves and the likes. I watched a stream with him going over such stuff and practicing Zangief. He's very good with grapplers and knows what he's doing. Unlike Dale and whining about top tiers while playing MARISA of all characters.
Regardless of where Geif falls on the tier list. Snake definitely carries this character not the other way around.
tell that to Leffen
Results do matter on the accuracy of tier lists. Look at what happened with Marissa for example. But I do believe that the mechanics of SF6 can be utilized well by every character and that can shake any matchup with player skill.
0:48 That is basically me man. You literally quoted me exactly word for word. LOL how did you know what I was gonna say without knowing what I was gonna say?
The moment anything hits twitter… it becomes wrapped. Lol
7:05, that MP poke (as you note) only combo's on counter, but more to the point, Gief doesn't move forward while the hits push the opponent back. I have been blown up because I landed a counter hit, swung a second time, and whiffed. Just because it combos doesn't mean it reaches, unlike Ken's or Luke's target combos that advance them forward with each attack.
That sounds outrageous and I don't even play Gief lol
TCs dropping on hit like that is the kind of stuff that you'd see in FGs from the 90s and even back then that would be terrible design
Agree with a lot of it, but some things about Gief's gameplan are kinda wrong:
"5MP target combo doesn't confirm unless counterhit" True, but the first hit puts them in a strike/throw situation, if they mash they eat the rest of the target combo and if they downback they get siberian express
"SPD damage is high, but the oki is bad" which is why he has russian suplex, which does less damage but gives him DR oki
agree overall tho, he's a grappler's grappler. highest of highs, lowest of lows, makes him a lot less appealing compared to more consistent characters
Honestly I'm ready to say, Geif is a good character because this game doesn't have awful characters.
reminds of hotashi and nago when strive came out
When he said they are getting scooped. He meant it fr fr ong no cap
all they asked is a lariat attack from behind. It is already THAT luxurious
This reminded me of the MK11 finals for Evo this year. It was Ninjakilla vs Nicolas, and it was (somewhat unsurprisingly) a Fujin mirror.
I was watching on Twitch, and legit the only thing I saw anyone talking about the entire finals was people complaining about Fujin and it being a mirror.
I'm not saying Fujin isn't too strong, or that mirrors aren't less interesting. But the sight of endless hordes of people only being able to see which characters were being played, and nobody actually talking about the players themselves (who played out of their god damn minds, mind you) was kind of sad.
Zangief is a bottom 2 character. He's heavily flawed, and has few good matchups, but he's not a *bad* character. Also Snake Eyez is just REALLY fucking good.
3:38 Gief player here, just give me the lariat hitting from behind and we good.
Thank you for talking about his light confirms, that shit is so ass 😭
Players win tournaments but characters most definetively help, denying that is denying facts.
Then by your logic, we should ONLY ever see top tier characters top 8 because those are the best players and as close to being the same skill level.
Yet the results don’t back up your logic.
@@OberynTheRedViper and we do, statistically they are a majority top toer, look at evo, luke, jp, two kens and a cammy, look at the top 32, jp, ken were the most played there, look at rbr kumite, online tournaments, you don't see a zangief winning every day, it is in fact such a unique thing that people are using it to farm content, you don't see a "how this player did the impossible" when ken won evo, statiscs and meta exists, wether your like it or not.
@@OberynTheRedViper i don't see were the f... numbers don't back up my logic with every tournament being dominated by the same core characters. You've had 30 to 40 tournaments and ONE was won by a lower tier character, how does that not back up my claim? Completely delusional.
@@OberynTheRedViperThey said it HELPS, not that it was the deciding factor. Their logic is fine
Snake eyez is just built different
While I am happy for Snake Eyez, None of this changes the fact that Gief is the worst in the game and he needs help.
Dang, you watched the video too?
@@guitaroach Hop off lil bro
I think it's crazy people can still say Zangief's not the worst bc some unreal strong player like snake eyes won a tournament, that guy i remember had won super turbo tournaments as gief and gief is wayyyyy worse in that game and there's demons like claw and boxer in that game that are way cheaper than modern top tiers
5:43 He used to be able to do it with Green Hand. I wonder how Green Hand would've worked today, but I guess I have my answer since it isn't present.
Id mostly say Geifs just weird in 6. I've found myself having to kinda play a more bait and punish kinda game rather than trying to bully my opponent into a mix up constantly. Also if we could even just get the od lariat to hit behind id be happy.
I hate the sentiment that you can only 'earn' or 'work' for a win using low tiers. Did Angry Bird not work for his EVO win using Ken or something?
Exactly, hell I avoid that thought process in my ranked matches
Snake Eyez win made me re-evaluate how I view letter in tiers. No longer am I thinking about character strength, but rather their likelihood to win a tournament. So a D-Tier character in a modern fighting game has a 60% chance of winning if played by an OD player. That's not as nice as 80-90% but that's not 0-10% like it currently seems.
The math doesn't add up. You think having a 60% chance to win a tournament is D-tier??? A single player would be a favorite if they had just 20% odds to win a major going into it. Like even the Birds combined weren't a 60% favorite to win EVO.
Pro players (that aren't consumed by UA-cam/Twitter discourse) are almost always reminding people that a tier list is an impression of potential tourney success at most.
I like tier lists but damn people gotta chill and just being be willing to accept that "low tier" nowadays normally just means "works harder" rather then being a bad character.
@@beam5655 He didn't say every tournament. Just one. probably in the entire lifespan of the game. LUL
@@AntanovOCEFGCA lot of people are just new and never played any older games where the lowest tier characters literally could not do anything in some matchups. Like Tager in the earlier Blazblue titles, for example.
@@beam5655Yeah the numbers are obviously way off, and framing it around a character's likelihood to win kind of misses the whole point of this video. But I think the general idea is still valid.
A character's strength is like a modifier that's applied multiplicatively to any given player's likelihood to win.
The strongest characters might give a modifier of slightly more than 1. The weakest might give slightly less than 1.
But there are so many other factors that, when combined, have a much higher impact on a player's likelihood to win a tournament.
So in F1 you have a Lewis Hamilton who's very highly skilled, and with a top tier car like Mercedes was from 2014-2020, he wins nonstop. But once the car rules changed and now the Mercedes isn't as strong as it used to be. Well now he's placing top 5 instead of winning all the time.
It's true the players skill is more important, but it'd be ignorant to acknowledge the quality of the character they use.
if his command grab left you a little closer to your opponent that alone would be a fair buff, but lariat not hitting behind should just be done as a fix rather than a buff
these are the only buffs he need i think
For sure players win tournaments not characters but in case of happy chaos its imo 50-50
We've had Randumb won a few tournies in EU but Idom finally won a tourney with Manon.
It sounds less like the player and more like how little people were prepared for the low tier. 🤔
People put too much stock in Tiers, just because "low-tier" characters have limited tools or situations they can set up, that doesn't mean that those low-tiers can't win. Low-tier characters just have to work harder for the win.
Please, modern Fighting games developpers, stop being scared of gving grapplers good combos and good oki. It will be fine, I promise.
I don't even play gief and I think it's illogical that he has to work so hard to get in and then just not get oki
I play pot in Strive, and people straight up refuse to play me because of having the best combos and oki in the game. :(
@@ellachino4799 You have to work for big damage and then come back in. It's how grapplers are designed in general.
@@666slateran666 It's how they'e designed in modern games and they ALWAYS suck.
Landing your command grab giving you high damage shouldn't be your only reward. In old games they also had decent combos and good oki outside the command grab so their gameplan was complete, and it was fine.
I play against +R Potemkin everyday, and he has all of this, and it's fine. World isn't dead over it.
@@Nooctae Yeah because he's in a fucking anime game that has Wildin' character design. Everyone is broken in older GG its the only way its remotely balanced. Pretty apples and oranges to the OG grappler design. Notice pot is literally the only one with that archetype in the history of GG and they just give everybody a command grab instead.
Reynald was going to win a super close first set but fucked up the hit confirm to close it out which gave Snake Eyez the room to force a reset. The reset Reynald was... obviously not playing as well as he was before. Getting your mental shattered by a small mistake made at the worst time is something that can happen at any skill level and has nothing to do with the characters being played
It's the same situation as when people started talking about how Pot is good and how Sol is top tier after their wins lmao
People focus on the "meta" and only cares about it, the best players who want money usually run the most broken characters they say they are and everyone do the same. So when another guy putting effort and skill take one of those "lower tier characters" and develop it he can simply destroy others because his skill is put on the character and since his matchups are usually the same 3-5 he can prepare better, while the "top tier pros" have no fuking clue on how to fight that characters since they only know "It is not that good".
This is why I hate when the people with the actual skill to carry the characters and show off chose to main the top tier characters and go the easy way, which is the most common western ideology. This is also why sometimes a top tier character got barely nerfed and suddenly one who was below become broken or super good when actually it was since before but people didn't care to even try or went for the one others told was better.
Snake Eyez tha god. I'm rooting for him soooo bad to take it all.
Please fighting gods, give this man perfect reads.
They should give Zangief his Green Hand back. It helps to cancel fireballs while building meter, and helps to make better combos while advancing towards the opponents face
So basically it invalidates the entire point of his character design? Lol
How to buff Gief:
1- More combo routes
2- L and OD SPD should give him Oki, period
3- Fix Lariat pls
4- SA1 should be an actual anti-air
5- Tundra Storm, nuff said.
OD SPD with oki would make him nuts. One SPD into guess for game
Honestly, just do your brain cells a favor and turn off Twitter immediately after big tournaments. I barely keep up with fighting game stuff at all and my living-under-a-rock ass knows that Snake Eyez is and has been absolutely sick with Zangief for years across multiple games.
People forget that general fighting games, and competitive are different worlds. Tier lists matter so much less in tournament because the players are at such a high level. Think back to sf4, by the end of that games era, every single character on the roster has won a tournament. J Wong literally destroyed some dudes with DAN once, and won the tournament. At a high level, the player matters much more than the character
I main Ares in Igau, and I got so much smack talk after Nickolas (iirc) won a Frosty Faustings with him. To this day I still don't know how he beat CW!
Tier is still correct. Zangief still shit. It's snakeyes being busted and op
i’d like to know your opinion about what Nemo said about fief’s lariat if you saw it. basically he was saying it’s fine cause he gets big damage off of it if you OD it then do his air command grab and you can just walk back anti air
Nemo is a known grappler hater...
@@Adderflail oh lol not really familiar with players like that. i was just curious if sajam heard that argument before
Don’t know why this is even treated like an either-or situation, why can’t we just admit that character strength/matchup and player skill/matchup are all factors in whether you win or lose and move on.
BEEN TELLIN SCRUBS THIS SHIT FOR YEARS!.. THE CHARACTER IS NOT YOU!..
Never go by a tier list😂😂😂😂
Lariat hit behind? Wooooh there, OD lariat leads to 4100 dmg. If it hit behind him as well you would have zero ways out and if you ever tried to jump on him it would be 40% of your health no matter how you positioned it.
Three hits into lariat i buy but lariat hitting both sides? Hell no.
Yes, but he has almost no response to mixups otherwise.
@@dancinginfernalthat is his archetype bro your supposed to tank everything then deliver the same amount of damage in one blow, and of the mix character choses right, tou lose about 2k of life. if gief choses right, he does about 3-4k damage and he has more healt
@@ΚρανίΩ Compare Gief to someone like Potemkin. Potemkin has multiple options for pressure and escape, and if he reads you correctly he can grab you for 50%, or more.
Gief can still grab you, but he has almost no escape tools. No counters (outside of Tundra Storm...I guess?) and no pressure tools. He can barely maintain a combo without drive rush.
@@dancinginfernal No dont compare him to a character from another game. Its not the same at all even though they are grapplers.
Secondly his answer to pressure should be great defense which snake eyes showed.
I really dont see how you can argue for a 4100dmg antiair that kills all options of getaway for everyone except teleporters unless you have insane character bias.
@@aZ1d lol
Reynald forgot JP can do combos for whatever reason. Trying to just hard zone instead of setting up a situations. Also I think people don't credit the side where Snake Eyez is like one of the only 2 people who play gief to that level (maybe kichipamu). He also doesn't run sets with people so he is definitely smartly exploiting matchup knowledge. He wanted to qualify with the online tournament instead of going to EVO and playing a bunch of matches. I fucks with it lol.