its funny that they redesigned gief to not be a character who just loops 50/50s over and over and then redesigned the rest of the cast to loop 50/50s over and over in the corner
@@108strawberry key word here is *looped* 50/50s Obviously gief gets 50/50s but the issue is that once he gets you once, he has to let you go back to neutral, where he is designed to struggle. Meanwhile dj luke ken etc, just drive rushes full screen, gets in for free, and then 50/50s in a loop until you die. XD
Part of it is just that you need to be completely on top of everything at all times. There is so little 'downtime' where you can reset your brain. If you're not having a great brain day, it can be very hard to do well. Part of the reason I have been toying with learning Dhalsim lately is that he just seems to be able to play a different game, one that gives me just a second here and there to reset...
😗👌🔥dhalsim main here, keep at it, it's 100% worth it. It's a lot of work and you WILL get tilted sometimes but on god, sf6 sim is legit one of my favorite characters in any fighting game. He literally does play a different game, and that game is marvel vs capcom. He has command flight and shit, just fly away at full screen to stall for meter like storm; its like mvc2 dhalsim in slow motion😂 Dude is hilarious at every level of play, the sky is the limit with how filthy your mixup game can potentially become. torimeshi for example plays like an asshole, it's so funny. you get to be ice cold and just say "yes, i'm plus. hold the left/right overhead/low strike/throw mix. oops i teleported in place instead of going in, nice DI whiff." I made the Piccolo Vortex video my entire personality 💀 I can't tell you how much i appreciate teleport out of the corner, teleport into DI, and generally getting to roast mfs with marvel mixups in a street fighter game. Plat 4 if you're curious, i still have a long way to go but its been a blast every step of the way, even the DI spamming silver juris and gold kens. I can't tell you how many ken players i've killed because they forgot about the upball as soon as it went off screen. I love forcing 50 different versions of whatever thing works on them from anywhere on the screen, people get PISSED bro
@@danknstein6504 I'll definitely have to keep working on him. The ability to have extra options and extra ways out of the corner, etc. really appeal to me. I THINK Torimeshi is the reason I started in the first place. Was watching some Topanga. I was just really impressed with how well he used float for positioning and how much movement he had with it, and also how he would use air fireball as a way to almost frame trap or get around/over things.
Sim gets mauled in this game and has no good button to check DR. He was the second character I picked and is currently my most played. The system mechanics make him very weak. Not just DR either, forced knockdown makes his teleport considerably weak. Lastly, he has no counter hit into a medium button, he has to DR cancel to be able to do that. You also have to burn bar to combo out of his jab combos without a DR. On top of that, scaling on jab combos has been increased, so both of those routes are made weaker as a result. He's an extremely meter hungry character and he doesn't get any damage for that investment. Like I said, everything in this game is against his entire playstyle. You're playing from behind before you even get into the match. When it goes well, its fine, but you really feel all of these mechanics in his gameplay.
Agreed, would bringing damage down help? The high damage potential ends matches quickly and lessens the interactions which is how we see who plays better is my thinking. It’s so volatile due to getting a couple guesses wrong can often be the round.
I feel weird about calling it unstable, how many weeks straight have nuckle du and punk been in the top 3 of like every online tourney. Punk seems to be the same in can opener as he was in sfv nlbc. How many of the top 6 of Evo were a shock? Mena not making it was surprising but like half of them were repeats from last year! How that isn't closer to predictable than unstable I don't really understand.
Nope, the fact that everybody has their own S-tiers in their tierlists, it doesn't mean the game is balanced. It means every single character in this game plays exactly the same.
@@surtrpicks They already nerfed light combos by 20%. Starting a combo with a low mk already scales damage by 20%. All normal throws are 12% compared to 14% on average in SF5. Damage in SF6 is already MUCH lower on average compared to SF5 unless you are literally blowing all your drive and CA3.
I agree with you that the game "feels" balanced mostly, but that it also feels random. To borrow a physics term, I think it's more like "Unstable Equilibrium", where the game/object is mostly in balance until something (very easily) tips it over, rather than it naturally coming back into balance.
The "unstable equilibrium" you're talking about is Ken or Akuma ubering you from California to Florida because you didn't block low for a split second and now you're losing 70% health to shimmies.
I think cr medium kick drive rush is easily the most tilting thing in this game. You get your toe touched once, and it's 40 percent with these characters or immediately in the corner.
Blocking low and watching people automatically drive rush because theyre plinking the input is always pretty funny though, if you just put on defense they tend to burn themselves out super fast.
I still feel like checking drive rush is too big of a risk. Introducing a hurtbox in front of the drive rushing character would help that without affecting any combos or pressure.
KOF games are pretty offense-heavy, but at the same time you also got good defense options. You can wake up roll to get out of corners for free (unless opponent OS for this); block and then spend a bar to do a guard-cancel CD (similar to drive reversal but much faster and safe on block). I think buffing drive reversal is a good idea.
What if getting thrown would build your drive meter. It would add another layer of mind games, where the person getting thrown gets more meter in exchange for getting reseted back into the blender, while the person doing the throwing has to accept the fact that the opponent now has more resources to threaten them with a wake up OD reversal. In a funny twist it would give someone the incentive to let them get thrown because they want to replenish their drive meter. It would also deter the opponent from going for the throw. It would add an interesting and organic layer of mind games to the throw loop meta.
I get the idea, but i think this is not a good one. The mecanics are made to reward the one who is making the right choices and reads, so this will be agaist that. This is similar to the COD death streak mechanic, where the player gets an perk for getting killed a lot, like dropping a grenade that detonate 50% faster, getting more damage for a limited time and etc. Extremely annoying.
Nah cos that's rewarding you for losing. It would be better if throw loops were removed but throws removed gauge and could stun when in or caused burnout to keep shimmy threat.
@@lainahtan13 its not a huge reward. It just adds more depth to the throw loop meta on higher levels of play. Capcom likes the throw loop mini game, so instead of trying to get it removed, you could make it more interesting.
I like the idea but I think it creates a huge problem during midscreen oki. Everyone will take the throw there. Especially against characters (like mine) that can’t get real pressure afterwards. Take the throw and parry the fireball simulator.
@@SparkyForce Its hard to say how it would affect the meta in the long run. I just like the idea that there is more depth in the throw loop meta, which comes from the resource management aspect of the game. SF6 is all about resource management after all. That is what Capcom wants from the game.
I think the balance of this game is pretty solid but it is VERY snowbally. Once you lose a interaction it takes insane reads to get anything back. Especially with the crazy frame data of characters making Drive Reversal borderline useless. A change I'd make is make Drive Reversal push back a bit more on block to make it reset more space.
@@MrCFBaddefinitely isn't. It started out ultra oppressive then toned down to a place where it was a pretty healthy game. If SFV is trash, then this game is worse than that. It has the same braindead rush down meta SFV had when it released. SF6 has taken steps back in that regard. Defensive options are viable in SFV and throw loops were all removed, along with crush counter fishing. This game's defensive mechanic is garbage, game has throw loops, and fishing for DR cancels dominates.
i have no idea who you are... but literally every gripe you have... is the gripe i have.. 1) cr. 2MK Drive Cancel = Lazy as fuck mechanic and why the fuck is this a true block string? 2) throw loops lazy as fuck 3) coast to coast corner carries? when has this ever been a thing in SF? all valid points and i relate completely.
Just a thought: when streaming you should never say "I think the character balance is good, do you guys agree?" People are sheep, so giving your view first corrupts the data. You should just say "What do you guys think of the character balance right now?"
To be fair, people who are that easily swayed would also have their opinion based on the last tweet/streamer/video they've saw. It still wouldn't be "good data".
It is somewhat validating to hear a player/creater i respect echo the same opinion ive had off this game for the past 8 months. The biggest issue with sf6 is the conversions, the corner carry, and throw loops. These things by themselves are not necessarily bad but together they make things frustrating to play/watch
The world warrior stats very much so fits into the idea that throw loops and crmk>dr are too strong/oppressive since characters that constantly use them are at the top while the character most susceptible to both(Marisa) is in dead last.
bUT shE HaS DaMAgE!!! (in a game where most other characters can do 80% the damage she has with much easier access to it, a good crouch MK, plus good oki, footsies, safety, throw loops, a reversal, good buttons... )
If you say Marisa is bad anywhere, sf6 players (who dont play her) will fly over to any comment you make to try and "educate you". Literally said this on FrameWhisperers latest video and got flooded. She can't compete with characters who have the tools she does not. So she has to take more risks that ultimately get you killed, or do nothing, hold block, and get you killed. Those combo routes were not a fair trade for losing scutum in the corner"
As someone who’s a couple weeks in and still learning ( Chun Li main ), can you elaborate what makes Marisa more susceptible to cr medium DR and throw loops? Genuinely curious because I want to learn how she plays
@@sammythijs8641 inability to bust out using a invincible reversal thats not level 2. This combined with your amour being beat by lows means you get one tapped touched into a corner combo and you have to hold it until you get level 2.
@@sammythijs8641 Marisa is slow, has a wide hitbox and has limbs and specials like gladius that stay out for long periods of time and are easy to punish with a strong crouch MK > dr punish. Not only that but all of Marisa's moves with armor, her defining feature, lose to lows and other moves that hit her around the waist except for EX counter, which you can't use in neutral. Every single one of her moves except level 2 and level 3 supers lose to throw, and she has no other way to defend herself from throws. She has a backdash so slow that the opponent can whiff a throw and still punish her if she tries to backdash in the corner. Losing one interaction vs Ken, Luke, Cammy etc means being put in the corner and having to 100% guess to get free.
I kinda hate the fact that a lot of characters get oki after forward throw. I think the game would slow down a bit if they couldn’t keep up pressure when I decide to take the throw midscreen. Its nearly impossible implementing this without changing a ton of framekills though
Or do it like SFV did, where you have just enough oki to do a meaty normal of some kind but NOT a meaty throw, meaning that attempting to go for a throw would always lose to your opponents wakeup lights and even some mediums maybe.
You take the throw and end up in a worse or just as bad position as If you took the throw it's so annoying. Blanka hits you with lk into electric and takes oki or throws you and gets the exact same oki
The issue is DR. It was a mistake and you cannot get rid of it, unless you wanna break the game. It could have been interesting, now is just making op charaters even more OP, and kinda make the game go rushdown. I hate it and I also use Ken, but one has to be honest.
Normal throws beating out command throws is an insane concept. Overhead normals that take the character off the ground being throwable as if still grounded is insane. Normal Throws are way too overpowered.
While it's definitely important for there to be the stability for top level competitors, i think capcom has to prioritize the experience for casual and casually-competitive folk and rightfully so, thats the majority of their audience and their cash flow. They like instability bc it creates big emotional swings when playing and watching, and it gives them some hope to get occasional wins on slightly stronger players. An occasional won set on a stronger opponent is a fantastic experience that sticks for weaker players and usually just a minor annoyance for stronger players that is forgotten, except in double elim tournament where randomly lost sets is devastating. It also results in a wider pool of people winning and its not just the same 2-3 people winning every time but a pool of 10-15. Its not like a random nobody is winning but the shuffling around of people in the top 8 gives a cooler experience to people who casually tune in and don't care to invest time following specific players and storylines, instead being excited to see different playstyles and characters at the top level. Tl;dr I think the top level competitors are going to have to suffer bc it benefits the core audience of casual/casually competitive players and watchers
This should have more upvotes. It's virtually impossible to simultaneously balance for casual player enjoyment and pro tourney consistency- there's just too big a gap in the way the player experiences the game. Debating the nuances of balance based on elite-level tourney results misses the point that Capcom clearly wants a certain element of randomness or snowballing bc the casual audience, both playing and spectating, is more engaged by exciting swings of momentum than cold calculated predictable outcomes. And at the end of the day, casuals are what drives most of the game's engagement. Fighting games are not chess, they never have been, and making them like chess would be a mistake.
Agreed. I consider myself casual-competitive and love occasionally taking games off people who are pretty clearly better than me without it just being a total casual fest that completely ruins competitive play a la smash bros brawl
I like Broski's point, but I'd also point out the pros have access to the same tech. Gaps in power between tiers is small. There isn't a lot of extremely demanding tech execution so that's not a big barrier for the best pros. So then it comes down to your RPS decisions and it's hard to consistently win those.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Doesn’t change the fact SFV is better than SF6. Honestly i think SFV is even better than 4, much more balanced, graphics better, gameplay similar, Vskill/trigger changes the gameplay for the better. So many characters. SFV is the best Street Fighter game to date.
I think something important to consider is the high variance is also likely a result of the generally higher level of play in the modern era. There aren't really players that can get so far ahead as to be untouchable.
That might be but the game is still too volatile. Driverush + stupid amount of corner carry + throw loop guessing + high damage combos + only bo3 rounds
@@icantthinkofaname2722 Nah, dude. OG post is correct. You're just parroting what this degen streamer guy said. All these "onlypros" are upset that the gap has closed. Gone are the days of keeping your tech to yourself. Gone are the days of dominating a game simply B/C you play more. You, on the other hand, are probably just terrible at SF altogether.
Yeah there isn't a single best in the world gamer who stomps everyone else, but I feel like the whole top 16 of every tournament is mostly names I recognize.
Do I smell cooking over here? 😳 Making successive consensual blender torture more commital sounds smart to me. To inituate a guessing game, you gotta spend some Drive. 🤔 Then again, I don't even play this game. 😅
That's a pretty decent idea. I still agree that throw loops need to be a thing because of Perfect Parry but having a drive cost on each one no matter what character would definitely make people use them less, especially in top/pro level play.
@@guitaroach True. Not really a way around that, which would effectively cripple multiple fighters already riding the struggle-bus, being most (if not all) grapplers, yes? 😓 Bummer, but super insightful on your part. Thank you! At least now we know this change would suck lol 😅👍
I also think that modern FGs give you access to way too high damage way too easily. For example, it wasn't that simple to combo into an ultra in sf4. Most of the time, combos into ultras required specific setups and/or 2+ bars of your super gauge. You also couldn't get an ultra without losing health. And supers were used alsmost, like, never, because the super bar was directly tied to the FADC stuff. Not to mention, the damage was scaled really heavily. In sf6, for contrast, you get a 60% combo by canceling your bnb into lvl 3. The super bar fills way too fast, the scaling is limited, and the execution, most of the time, is not that hard. So, when someone at 50% health gets clipped, you can basically just skip to the next round.
When I look at the people who qualified for the esports world cup, I see nothing to suggest to me that the game is random. There are maybe 5-6 people that could have been replaced by a handful of other folks. But the majority of competitors are the same people who reliably make top 8 at any premier/major/tier 1 tournament they enter. It's true that often, it's perspective and ability to access the level of detail and degrees of distinction. Somebody who is a pro at that level is going to be saying something that is very deep and unquestionably true in some way, and us plebs are not going to see those aspects that make it true. But that doesn't mean they can't suffer the same kind of delusion from their own narrow perspective.
I hope the video isn't calling it random... Gonna watch but that'd be wild. Punk and nuckle du win the same tournament every week or nearly every week. Players are absolutely able to show consistency.
I think the fact that this game, and Strive for that matter, doesn't have the same couple of people winning consistently every time is more about how many top players the game has and less about the game introducing some aspect of randomness.
I dont think people winning consistently means the game doesn't have a bit of randomness. Pros are pros off of fundies alone. A pro can play a broken game and win majority of the time just because he has more experience and natural skill than others
@jpVari fwiw, it is third hand from an interview that broski cites tokido doing with Ryan Hart. Broski is just expressing his view what aspects of the game make it more unstable than 4 or 5 were.
@@jpVari nitpicking two really good players who consistently player really good characters doesn’t mean the game is consistent. They’re the outliers not the norm.
It takes a pro player doing a video essay about this subject for the tenth time for people to understand that more aggressive games equal less stable games? Strive, Tekken 8, and SF6 all decided to go for more aggressive, guesswork heavy gameplay and they are all paying that same price.
The corner-carry situation is actually huge because, among other things, throw loops only happen in the corner. The amount of pressure you can put on a corner know down feels pretty appropriate for me but it's way too easy to get to the corner without meaningfully sacrificing resources or meter. Andof that wasn't enough, a certain top tier that absolutely doesn't need it also gets free side switches on his main combo routes or with his reversal super just in case run Tatsu combos weren't enough
funny how broski demonstrates clear as day what the problem with drive reversal actually is and everyone here is saying to make it unpunishable, or even plus on block. holyyyyyyy shit lmao i hope capcom isnt listening to any of you
I feel like they basically already solved this issue in SFV and I really liked the way they did it so honestly I just went them to do that. Manually remove throw loops for every character with a little more push back when throwing in the corner and add an invincible metered back dash similar to v shift. I think speeding up drive reversal along with this could help tackle the button -> drive rush we see so much. Or an interesting one might be to add more pushback on block for some of these safe cancelable normals, forcing you to drive rush for longer at max range and thus not be a true blockstring? Just an Idea I had that could be interesting to explore.
Make the stages bigger and/or reduce corner carry and I think we’ll be in business. Eating one combo from round start and ending up in the corner flipping coins is not a fun time, and just because both players can do it doesn’t make it good game design.
@@intellectic9155 You know I've thought about what you said and I think you're right, one random cr. mk leading to putting your opponent in the corner is peak game design.
Make a gap between the blocked crouch medium kick and drive rush, so not a block string or reversible in between, or super drive reversible (3 bars) that you can choose to have a better frame data
tbh the developers really wanted to focus on making this game spectator focused. I also agree that watching this game is very fun. Playing it on the other hand is very exhausting
Except throw loops. Idk how anyone at Capcom looks at pro players getting thrown 3-7 times in a row and thinks it's exciting or appealing to anyone, especially spectators.
I think on wakeup people should have access to an invincible roll on wake up that can swaps sides, kind of like in KoF at the cost of 2 pips of drive meter. That way throw loops still exist if people don't roll, but there is a way to get out without giving the defender a get out of jail free, since getting out can burn them out or they are at such a huge meter disadvantage they won't always roll. Or maybe Capcom can reintroduce wakup ex dp FADC in some form. A reset with little risk, but extreme meter burn on the defender side.
im new to sf6 and i gotta say, not being able to cancel into DI *in reaction to their DI* out of any grounded normal is by far the stupidest thing capcom has “added” to sf6. its more like it removed TWO of my SIX buttons. im sure modern controls being FOUR buttons and allowed in ranked has nothing to do with that at all. nope. RIP 5MK and 5HK. as for modern controls being allowed in ranked, all the people defending it don’t understand how theyre hurting the game for new players and scrubs (aka most of the players that play this game). i cant execute a full combo every time, i cant hit confirm before going into a combo consistently because *im not at that skill* level. (keep in mind the youtubers and pros will tell you that you NEED to face people at your skill level to get better). modern controls delete that issue entirely, meaning anytime im paired up against someone using modern controls, it means im LITERALLY not matched with someone “at my skill level”. all the youtubers defending this horsesh!t only make the problem worse. its like watching billionaires say “the economy isnt that bad” yeah stfu 🙄. this dude using modern controls can -> instant dp -> instant super -> will not go to an unsafe attack UNTIL THE GAME registers that i didnt block an attack, then it does it automatically -> auto combos if it wasnt for modern controls they wouldnt be able to execute ANY of these things consistently. last i checked thats a *skill* issue with classic controls. logically, im not matched up with someone of my skill level if theyre using modern controls and im using classic controls. this is not an issue past a certain rank, because the SKILL LEVEL of the classic control player is now at the level where the things i mentioned arent an issue most players are NOT at that skill level which means most players getting matched classic vs modern are in a genuinely unfair fight. its so stupid.
oh ya, also the input interpreter is garbage. not an issue i have in 3rd strike. there are moments in matches where i dont do moves id like to do because i have no faith that the move i want will come out. i dont have the problem in 3rd Strike. i looked into it, this is another issue people have been bringing up since launch. overall character balance does feel good. honestly it feels GREAT. i dont feel like i auto-lose when im matched up vs a certain character, rather i feel like if i knew their moves and frame data id be able to win off my skill and game iq vs someone at my rank. this is an issue though. i cant go into training mode and experiment with characters i didnt pay for. you can imagine how this makes learning to fight AKI, Ed, or Akuma feel kinda lame. id also probably have purchased all of those characters by now if i could mess around with them in training mode. theres no way im buying a character as strange as AKI without at least being able to try the character out. this part of fighting game monetization needs to be re-evaluated (let me, in solo practice mode, use the dlc so i can learn how to fight them on characters i own). 🚮
I keep saying they should just add FADC mechanics to drive impact and remove 1 hit of super armor to compensate for the buff. If you get caught on a DI you can spend a ton of drive bar to FADC out.
@@ShellShocks14 I'm not sure how long you've been playing but the game is pretty generous with Rental Tokens, I had 10 before i knew it and they are good for one hour of playtime in any mode except online. Its also worth noting, you can watch replays of characters you don't own unlike another certain garbage clusterfuck game, so you can at least learn frame data with that display enabled for characters you don't own. I 100% agree with you about fighting game monetization though, every one of these games charges like they're disney world while delivering a waffle house tier user experience in return. If Garbage Clusterfuck was free to walk in the door instead of 70USD minimum, i could have potentially forgiven its grimy monetization, but they chose to lie about it and say all sales final after they altered the deal. Absolutely disgusting that capcom is now the least shitty operation in town, but credit where it's due: they are FAR less shitty than they used to be. They aren't charging for patches anymore at least, and despite them charging for literally everything else they can manage, i prefer it this way. I didn't buy Ultra sf4 (I didn't have 40 bucks for a game i'd bought 3 times already) so that game died 2 years early for me. I can still play sf6 online, if this was 15 years ago i'd be stuck playing with the same 4 people who also couldn't afford to buy the whole ass game again, AGAIN, just to buy nerfs and new undisputed top 1 character 😂 I'll never forget buying mvc3 twice in one year.
The character balance is good, because lots of characters are viable and can win a tournament. The “meta” or the “state of the game” is certainly “interesting” as Tokido put it, because the game is indeed explosive, volatile, and you can just die off being wrong twice, or more specifically, it is extremely easy to be put in a near unwinnable position in a round, as you get put into the corner and/or burnout.
If you play against the wrong guy and they burn you out they can literally just walk forward while jabbing and put you in an infinite blockstring that pushes you into the corner for like 35 seconds.
While it doesnt seem to be a big issue competitively I feel like Drive Impact kinda emphasizes this too, like even if you don't use it and can react to it reliably, just anyone in the match using DI means someones about to take a ton of damage lol it's a very all or nothing kinda thing
Idk it always feels to me like DI is just an extra thing sitting on top of other issues, if there are issues. I've even come around on the DI checkmates, because most characters can mash Super 1 if they see it coming, so it's really if you just spent level 3 AND burned out that you're fucked, which is a resource management issue more than a DI issue. This game has massive mental stack though.
Get rid of throw loops and make high and low parries separate so you can low shimmy people or open them up with overheads if they chose the wrong parry option. I would also make jumps automatically counterhit if AA'd so they drain drive bar. Very little reason not to jump against a lot of the cast rn.
What would balance this game is giving every character a move that can be executed safely during drive rush for a counter and giving better DI distance to slower characters for balanced pressure.
I think it's fine if it's not universal, and they're hardly necessary. Chun can't throw loop and she's still excellent. Sucks for Honda but it's Honda so, like, eh.
It’s dumb, not all characters have plus on block buttons, not all characters can crmk DRC, not all characters have throw loops, not all characters can block string 3 lights… I don’t understand this shitty game.
They should shave a couple frames to bdash. I like making dreversal startup faster also. Ppl really gotta start wakeup bdashing, and capcom should do it to where its neutral vs shimmy delayed cr mk, maybe u make the last couple frames strike invincible but not projectile invincible. (I still want bison mine, blanka doll, and Kimberly spracan to blow up bdash as intended. Probably just making bdash faster is enough. U land a light combo and get out of the corner. Sf6 has ALOT of defense. Ppl gotta cycle their options better or they deserve to lose. I understand watching that noah clip is uninteresting to watch as a spectator (MvC3 will always be the best spectator sport), but realistically u gotta be willing to try delay tech. Obviously, its only worth it when the enemy is close, which the other player looping noah was very close, you CAN mitigate the guess with trying to react to their offense with delay tech (obviously its a very strong defensive option when used correctly , its an absolute catch-all to any offensive opponent within grab range, which is why, even when it works you stay in the corner) Updating the throw system in any way i think is welcome to us as spectators, but there is absolutely a lot of defense in the game.
Buffing backdashes sounds good to me. I am not just saying this because I main Chun Li who has the worst backdash in the game that can't even punish meaty throw. I promise.
Light K/P buffer drive rush was super common until they made it so you could DR cancel jabs on whiff. Maybe they should make mediums the same? That way buffering into drive rush has some sort of risk for mediums
a solution, although veeery situational, would be to have the grey healthbar (the thing that you get after getting hit during successful drive impact) whenever being thrown repeatedly after wakeup, so that it doesn’t break any mechanics but forces the opponent that loops throws to stay aggressive until they can confirm life drain. Plus, even if it forces the other player into defensive play, they can at least get back on their feet without such a massive setback from this unfortunate interaction while also making throw less and less of an option even faster
On throw loop DRC. I think it's also worth mentioning that within 2 throws you've built back about 2 bars, so now you can reactivate pressure. So the fast drive rush characters can just charge back in after a throw tech or something of that sort, which makes it even harder to dig your way out the corner. You're also taking drive gauge damage the whole time you're blocking, so when you do get out you often don't have the resources to redress the life deficit. I remember Daigo saying that it was good that SF6 didn't reward turtling, but I think this also is why there's so little neutral in this game and loads of unga bunga - offence snowballs. I agree on drive reversal. I used to think -6 is too punishable, but it would be fine if it hit more reliably and encouraged reading it like a wake up reversal. Worst case trading 3 bars for 2 in higher level play makes DRC off low forward a worthwhile risk while also making it less braindead easy.
+1 to the longstanding idea that drive rush should be punish counter state the whole time. Throw loops need to go. It's still a 50/50 if you have to guess between meaty or a throw 2 frames later. You could still get thrown to heck in SFV. I think drive reversal on hit should create a lot of space, but on block should leave you in range for a medium punch punish. If the best you can get is like light kick tatsu as a punish (~900 damage) people will just be throwing it out all day.
My concern with adjusting drive reversal to where you can react to low forward drive rush is that if you can consistently beat it, then the option becomes so much weaker. Button into drive rush costs 3 bars whereas drive reversal only costs 2, so if drive reversal can reliably be used on reaction then theoretically no one should be using button into drive rush as it results in a net loss of 1 drive gauge (mental stack may change this in reality however). Now that may or may not be preferable but I think drive rush has become too core to SF6’s identity for Capcom to be too eager to change. I could be mistaken though
I think that would be a good thing Because part of the problem I find with drive rush is due to how it gives so much reward with very little hit. Canceling a poke into a drive rush gives the user all the more time to confirm weather it hit or was blocked and if blocked get to go into your blockstring pressure and mixups all the while every single one that is blocked is replenishing your drive guage while depleting theirs. And if you hit, you can easily go into your big damage combos, corner carry, hard knockdows and continue to snowball your pressure. Making it so you could more reliably drive reversal it I don't think would even change the risk reward out of rushes favor. It would just make it a little more committal as then you'd havd situations you may have burned 3 bars of drive guage for nothing.
What do you think about all cancellable normals being drive rush cancellable on whiff, like they did with lights? Would even out the best characters, corner carry would be the same, but the opening -and thus the corner- would be harder to get.
So this video and topic are amazing and you literally were on the right track with your opening points, but over focused, i feel, on the small examples. Like you mentioned 05:15 its all of these components when they come together that make this game so volatile. When i said you were on the right track and then lost it, is here 03:24, 05:15, 09:24 where you mention it but dont double down on it. LOW RISK, HIGH REWARD. The examples are nice for explanation and examples behind the points being made but they are just one small part. You stated you felt that increase the cost of neutral drive rush was a bad idea, but personally I think thats a great idea for consideration. Why? Increasing the cost of drive gauge to use neutral drive rush INCREASES the RISK REWARD in terms of resources and puts you in a situation where now you could be placing yourself at a disadvantage if you overextend on committing to gaining an advantage. That should always be the point of committing to a high rewarding strategy. You commit to something advantageous at the cost of resources or the risk of it failing and you paying a big cost. Wake up OD reversal, if blocked using means you eat a big punish counter combo/damage, which is where the risk and reward is balanced. Otherwise people would wake up with their best reversal option non-stop. So when you were on the right track in the video, i personally felt if you double downed on the fact that drive rush IS low risk HIGH REWARD ALL THE TIME….BECAUSE…you can neutral drive rush to close the game and make on block moves plus or on hit extremely advantageous, cancel button into drive rush and be safe, or extend combos for huge damage, all for minimum of 1 bar in most cases outside of cancelling a button AND still get 2-3 OD moves in that combo with some characters. Thats a lot of possibilities and advantage and TIME taken away from your opponent for what? Half a meter of drive gauge because a lot of times you can gain a bar or two back in the combo or on block mind games of is he gonna throw, shimmy, or frame trap me setups…. If we increase the cost of neutral drive rush, players will have to consider burnout WAY MORE OFTEN. Meaning, and unfortunately, it does slow the game down, but if makes for less chaos and unbalance between the characters who currently have the best use of the universal mechanic, and grounds the player to think on a more level playing field with characters like Dhalsim or Manon who dont really get to play the same game as the most picked characters in that graph you displayed. Another key and overly abused mechanic that is also LOW RISK and High Reward that you didnt mention, that people downplay because throwing is its only counterplay, you guessed it, Drive Parry. Because people have had more time to develop themselves in this game and with the mechanics, I, again, personally feel that Drive Parry may be the single most worst thing in this game and needs the biggest or more immediate rework, even more so then drive rush currently. Yes. You can grab it and punish counter it. But the window to do so is so small. 12 frames (after they nerfed it from 8 frame windown.) Its frame 1 start up, with a 2 frame window upon activation for perfect parry (which is OD mad Low Risk High Reward), an additional frame added to the window when parrying fireballs from crouch (apparently i was told), and if you fail to perfect parry, but you blocked the attack successfully using drive parry, it, without seemingly any additional negative frames, allows you to transition into regular blocking free of charge. Now i said seemingly because I have a setup with Bison that if you parry my attack, i can punish counter your parry still. So i dont know if there is any slight additional recovery or if my setup is so fast and frame tight that even tho you normal parried my button you still have a small window to get punished countered before making a full recovery. Im getting off topic but my point is there. Drive Parry leads to free blocking to avoid guessing wrong. Which in someways slows down the would be aggressor because if they keep pressing you can just mash/tap parry, perfect parry with no risk of getting hit and then get, not only a full punish counter combo of your choosing at the cost of reduced damage, but who cares about the reduced damage when you gained corner pressure or setup win conditions, for free, like Bisons psycho mine. Its a single button input to parry if you have it macro’d. Its every characters best anti-air option and mixup option. Why? Because we saw it in Noahs fight against NL. Pros and most players would rather take a 2300 or less damage normal throw, then take any hit into minimum 5k damage without breaking a sweat. I felt it was cool to see early on when cats were using Drive Parry/Perfect Parry to counter season 1 Kens Dragon Lash, but once more people got used to the mechanic, they just got lazy. They just toss it out whenever without thinking because it is low risk. After jab. After job. Bet if you got in fist fight with one of them IRL they would default to trying drive parrying you if you ran towards them. And lastly, yes. The throw loops. They nerfed Back throw for whatever reason. Some character who had butt forward throws had good back throw setups and they took that away, but left in the overpowered low risk high reward normal throws. And i say low risk, because in terms of throw loops, you beat parry. if your throw was meaty, you beat jumps. If your throw was teched, you end up in anti air range, practically with the best positioning you want in the corner. Basically the game developers need to reassess the low risk high reward universal mechanics. Compare how they are used between the characters and offer a way to balance it so we can play Street Fighter. Shake things up a bit.
Honestly I am new to the game and just learning basic things, all the things that high level players are constantly complaining about fly right over my head, probably over most of the player bases heads honestly. My goal is to one day understand all your SF woes
I think the balance is solid, they might be playing with fire with the "robbery" characters with stuff like the Gief buffs. We might not know how good we have it right now.... I think some characters while they absolutely should be viable, are better off being on the lower end of the tier list for the health and enjoyability of the game. I dread a season where like Gief and Manon and Marisa are truly top tier characters. I think perfect parring and less importantly drive impact can be adjusted / improved in many ways, but I'm not sure what they can do with the Drive rush system or the throw loops ( the loops being balanced fine, but just leading to some insipid gameplay scenarios) . It might just be a case of the game being what it is. I'm not sure there's a good way to make DR more redactable, and i'm not sure punishing it harder with a punish counter state or something is a good idea either, especially as you look into who would benefit from such system changes. The situation it puts you in and the whole concept of how drive rush gives plus frames to a mixup is just a bit problematic and homogenizing in itself. Maybe add a metered forward roll on wakeup or some shit like Alpha 1/XT that beats drive rush pressure and throw loops /gets you out the corner but can be punished hard with other things on a hard read? Idk. Seems like a can of worms. They probably need a new mechanic to mitigate the bad elements of these other mechanics somehow as I'm not sure how to "fix them" My only other issue with the game is with the characters themselves. I personally don't find a lot of them very fun / interesting gameplay wise. There are a lot of "this is a 3/5*" Right now when I look at the roaster. They did a great job with just a few characters, and merely a "good" job with most of them.
I just think it be a balancing nightmare. It would make characters who are already decent at stuffing DR better at it, but more importantly some characters would get much more damaging and consistent DR punish counters than others. They weren't tested or balanced around this. It's also a bandaid fix, the real issue here is lack of consistency, with the speed, the "input eating" freeze just rewarding you more when you do happen to actually stop it doesn't really solve the core gameplay problem. I genuinely don't know how to fix it, but that's the devs job anyway. To broskis point about DR cancel ( mainly off low forward) being too strong / random as well, it's also hard to fix, because it's kind of a core tool and strength of a lot of characters. They would need quite a bit of reworking to compensate imo. You could easily fix it but making like, Drive reversal faster / more effective when used against a character in a drive rush state, (you could even add redparries lol )but do you want to? a stronger Drive reversal makes EX DP more redundant for one.... part of me wouldn't be opposed to adding initial scaling to crush counter DP and CC wiff throw punishes as these are so round defining. but again unfair to certain characters. I have a scrubby idea i'd like for later on in the games life when it has 40+ characters which is that moves that are positive on block should have a slightly different block sound than negative blocked moves ( this would feel natural as most are Drive rush moves anyway) This won't tell you how positive something is, but it will help players play with purpose rather than memorizing which handful of normals are actually positive on block. it would also be useful on offense, so for example Cammy will know when her spiral arrow is positively spaced. I won't be playing this game constantly, so if I return after a year or two off I think it's a big ask to memorize it all with a bunch of new characters. As a Guile player, I still cheese some people with Forward-HP which looks negative as hell, but i'm actually +3, I just don't think the knowledge checks of this sort are very important. Another Idea i've played around with is adjusting Perfect parry to be a per move basis. Anti-air perfect parry is a bit of an issue now so simply making all jumping normals a 1 frame parry window would mitigate this. I think some moves like Guiles Sonic boom, JPs spike or Hondas Headbutt / buttslam should probably be easier to perfect parry, maybe make them a 4 or 5 frame window rather than 3. I would have preferred this to how they changed honda in season 2 in particular. Jabs and shorts and such should probably be tight 1 or 2 frame perfect parry windows, it just removes a bit of the volitivity to the game while keeping it an option and a truly "hype" and skillful comeback mechanic. Perfect parrying multi hitting moves giving an advantage like less PP scaling would be neat as well, if maybe a novelty. It would be cool seeing players perfect parry every hit of a reversal super 1 to optimize instead of just regular parring it. to help with the high damage issue, rather than just nerfing damage and buffing vitality, I think one thing they could do is simply remove the extra damage from counter hit / punish counter. You get so much damage from the combo / setup off landing these already that the extra damage on the first hit just isn't needed. if you ask me, the level 3s getting a low HP damage buff is dumb and not needed too, but that's here to stay.
What I want is to make crmk not cancelable into DRC in all characters, make Drive gauge recovery slower, big hurtbox in front of raw drive rush. How did we go from having to spend tons of hours in training mode practicing crmk single hit confirms in SFV to any random masher in SF6 being able to get a crmk cancel combo and put you in the corner or killing you for free… this is insane.
We are at the point where character balance is almost irrelevant because the general meta of get the opponent to the corner with over powerful offense and guess/mix them to death, is far too strong. Problem is, Capcom want this because they want the ability for ANYONE to win. If you think you have a chance, you're going to take part and Capcom's aim is to have as bigger userbase as possible (more profit potential). I'm not sure what the fix is but one thing I think they need to do is make correct reads/guesses lead to rewards. Attack should beat throw, so if you read throw and you're right, you get to deal damage gain position, NOT remain stuck in the corner.
Agree. It really does feel like the matches are 1-2 neutral encounters and then the match is over. And the neutral doesn't feel exciting because 90% of neutrals is just trying to clip them and then it's drive rush, corner carry, 7K damage. The matches get very stale. Just Wong said a while back that a delay wakeup option could help balance. I'd be interested to see that. I also think some of the trade combos are unfair.
I think they should come up with a system that enables a faster recovery the more you get thrown consecutively. After the second throw then they don't get a loop anymore
It seems like the problem FGs always run into is they introduce system mechanics that benefit a portion of the cast more than the rest, so those characters naturally rise to the top because they play the game better. If a FG is gonna introduce a rush down system mechanic, I feel like they should also include a defensive mechanic that might benefit less rush down characters more to help balance it out.
My bad systems suggestion as a complete casual: blocked normal DRC doesn't actually move you forward (maybe there's no pushback on block for the attacker too), but you still have the same frame advantage as before. So, midscreen you're still safe on that blocked normal, but if you want to actually move in you're going to burn those plus frames which would maybe let the defender have some opportunity at counterplay. Once you actually have them *in* the corner, blocked normal DRC creates those strong vortex situations like before since they don't have anywhere to get pushed back. This also doesn't impact DR's role in the combo structure of the game since on-hit it'd just behave like it does now.
I think drive rush into light button should be reversible on reaction. Right now if you drive reversal you eat a 6 frame punish and if you don't you have to guess button or shimmy after the light. I also think however that if you don't hit a light button you should probably be able to block the drive reversal but then this means you have to guess every drive rush which is essentially the same thing as before so the issue isn't solved. If they just speed up drive rush this means any practiced player can completely shut it out as a approach option. I'm guessing this is the dilemma they reached as well
Based Broski back at it again 😂. Crapcom has been on this horrible path since the hot, flaming piece of garbage that was SF 5 came out. Consistently improving offensive options, and increasing damage and how easy it is to do it, while making defensive options worse and more risky. Back in the BEST SF days, we used to have CROUCH TECH, and invincible backdash, wich pretty much prevented this throw loop shit from happening at all. It was the "cheap" option. Remember how we also had safer DPs on wakeup due to being able to FADC many of them? And by spending big resources on this "expensive" defensive option, THE OPPONENT WAS THE ONE THAT HAD TO REACT, NOT YOU. (React on the FADC Backdash or forward dash, wich usually were punished very differently, some characters could not even punish them at all, depending on the backdash and your available moves). Also note that, for most characters, to do optimal damage, it usually involved either 1 frame links or combos that needed complex timing, now... We have fallen so low that one single fu*king throw tech could lead to you loosing a game by taking 60% of your hp and ending up in the same exact situation, but 1 guess away from being out of the match. even without taking super bar into consideration, the game encourages spend spend spend because it doesnt matter if you kill, since you get to start the next round with the W and fully stocked. Dont get me wrong I like SF 6 in general, but I never had any desire to be competitive (> 1700-1800 MR aprox in sf6) since we left USFIV behind. The meta at top level gameplay is incredibly frustrating, and some times, even boring. I also dont make suggestions to fix the thing because exactly like you said, those end up being pretty stupid and dont make any sense in the end. I dont think there is a way to "fix" it, without turning the game into a whole different thing.
💯 agree. However I will say Drive Impact should cost more meter. Any mechanic you can throw out and abuse regardless of counter play should have a greater toll.
Make throw loops cost a bar and no meter gain on landing a normal throw could possibly fix it. Maybe give 1.25 bars on punish counter throw so it rewards you for making the correct guess on the parry. That way they can **only** get a max of 6 throw loops in a row at max bar.
1. remove throw loops - I generally don't have a problem with throw loops but in a game like this where you get such few interactions, it really is very damaging 2. Better drive reversal - I think what you suggested is ideal. You don't want to reduce the cost because you don't want people spamming drive reversal, but for two bars it should be more guaranteed against certain moves. Especially since if you are using it, you are already in a disadvantageous state. 3. More health - I think having a meta focused around rush down characters like ken and akuma are fine, but it's kind of nuts that in the third round If guess wrong twice, I'm dead. I get that they want a slower game, but it feels bad to travel to a tourney just to lose your first game in less than 90 seconds of total game play. I'm not actually sure if I've ever gone to time on a single game of SF6.
I know you mentioned that changing the cost of raw drive rush or low forward drive rush would break the combo structure of the game, but honestly... maybe that is what is needed to happen. It is literally Drive Rush Fighter 6 the game. Take out the highest level of player base because honestly, they are the outlier, and let's look at the core player base. The casuals. They do not play like the top 1%. They drive rush on top of drive rush. It is like playing against Noah, but everyone is doing it, all of the time. So breaking the whole combo structure if it was for the better of the game is 100% viable. Just do it with the larger patch at the end of the year if it requires too many resources for one of the smaller patches mid-year.
Yeah, make reversal really good. Due to parry and drive rush, there really is nobody on the roster that is super hard to walk down. I mention this because V reversal was the end of Gief's viability in SFV.
This is probably gonna sound goofy as hell, but what if they made changes to recoveries? Like in Tekken and MK, there's usually a few different recovers you can do, such as delaying them, rolling forward, not just in place or back. It would make the opponent have to temper their offense more. And you could make so, for instance, if the opponent rolls forward, give them temporary invincibility, but they can be punished after if you do a read. I dont know how it would work frame data wise, but it'd give you more options other than "guess right or die"
Having your opponent in the corner is wayyyyyyy too powerful imo. And it feels like every single character can get constant oki into all sorts of throw loops, frame kills and safe jumps.
If you were hell-bent on nerfing drive rush for some reason, another alternative could be to make it to where whenever you do drive rush you couldn’t just block during the animation; you would have to either parry or continue your offense/combo. That way if they want to extend pressure, they’ll have to play RPS on the defensive player’s terms.
What if they applied drive gauge regeneration penalties for certain actions. example raw drive causes a slow decrease of the drive refill speed for a period of time but that penalty increases if you DR from a Med button and even more from a Heavy button so that it’s a bit more committal but doesn’t change the cost and would give the devs levers to adjust up or down moving forward.
I don't get why you try to pretend we can't nerf raw drive rush broski, I really don't think it is hard to code in the game "If combo count is on, then raw drive rush is 1 meter" and put raw drive rush in neutral at 2 bar... Like that, the combo structure is the same and it make drive rush from neutral more costly. Is it convoluted as a rule? Yes, but when a system has a lot of intricacy and synergy between different rules, exception become the norm to work on. And while I also feel drive reversal should be better, we need to remember that in a game with a parry mechanic, it could possibly lead to a lot of stalling/lack of incentive to go on the offense. So I feel drive reversal should be guaranteed on drive rush cancel but I don't know if I want it to be THAT good on wake-up.
It's not about how difficult it is to code the change, it's about how deeply ingrained drive is into everything. It's to the point where a change that feels small like changing the cost of drive rush etc. can have huge unforeseen ripple effects on the game to where it's very easy to create a change that makes the balance go ine step forward and 2 steps back on accident
@@yeahmemia Except we know the things that are affected by raw drive rush: Neutral (fireball drive rush and empty drive rush into a command) and combo. If we want the combo system to still work while nerfing it for neutral, it is absolutely possible to create a condition where empty drive rush consume less gauge when there is a combo count active (aka the opponent is in hitstun) while making consumz it more otherwise. It will take time anyway to see where the consequences goes, so while changes need to be carefully monitored, we also need to play it out at one point.
its not easy to code that the only way i'd say this works is if they program it to be like of the opponent is in hitstun dr costs one bar but then again ken ex fireball drive rush would just be one bar still, frieball drive rush would still be one bar if you confirm it, which is why its hard to balance
With how oppressive being in the corner is in SF6, we need more defensively variable options to getting out w/o risking everything, or buffs to current defensive mechanics like Drive Reversal. Throw loops are insanely boring, so a nerf to that where universally limiting the continuing pressure of the thrower I think is necessary. It sort of is like that mid screen do to back roll wake up, but not in the corner. Idk if a delay wakeup option would help but maybe it's worth trying so you can mix up defensive options on your opponent. Looking at a game like Tekken, there are a crazy amount of wakeup options to help keep your opponent guessing after their long combo and just like in that game not all are safe. But it's the variety that makes a difference.
What if drive reversal was a true counter to drive rush (game freezes until the reversal lands) like how drive impact is a true counter to drive impact?
I agree with you 100%, SF5 has issue with V-Trigger system that can rob the round once activated, SF6 system mechanic made the situation worse. Just check how many matches in world competitive stage that are done in sub 10 seconds and how many double perfect matches. This really shows how oppressive SF6 can be, land one stray hit into drive rush, you are in the corner, while SF6 has much better defensive mechanics than SF5 but from the aforementioned phenomenon, obviously the offensive and defensive mechanic balance need to be better. I think what you suggest to make driver reversal stronger definitely a move into the right direction! It’s disheartening to see some of the world best players couldn’t even make into top 64 just because of bad luck. Guilty Gear burst system also something I quite like, a guaranteed “get off me” unless got baited intentionally.
I feel like the game could differentiate between raw drive rush and mid combo drive rush pretty easily. If your opponent is under recovery from being hit, drive rush costs 1 meter, otherwise its costs 2. I think its a doable problem to work around.
Its both extremely balanced and extremely volatile. SF5 Started the trend with normal > vtrigger cancel but sf6 is that whole mindset but on pure Peruvian cocaine ❄❄❄
Reducing overall combo damage so there's more of an opportunity to play neutral is a good idea, and increasing the cost of DR is a way to do that. They could also add more scaling after a DR. Two bars for raw DR is a reasonable change. You SHOULD have to spend more to maintain pressure. Reduce the cost of reversal and speed it up so it can actually reverse things and not cut your ability to shift momentum.
This can be achieved through character traits, too, but my biggest wish regarding 6 in general is DR getting nerfed more because I prefer the neutral pace of previous entries over 6's. I feel like non-cancellable normals with great range/frames are overshadowed too much by cancellable button > buffer DR. A general nerf to Drive build and/or extending the whiff-cancel DRs of lights to mediums and heavies would be great to see, just to at least discourage people from going green mindlessly.
Raw drive rush outside of a combo situation should cost 2 bars, and parry should’ve been a forward input, not 2 buttons. That last one is huge because it makes it to where even I can manage perfect parries with consistency and I’m barely climbing past 1600 MR.
I think your point of representation is the key here. Just because the gap between Ken and Zangief is smaller, doesn't mean the gap in representation will follow suit. It's a numbers game. If more people were playing Zangief than Ken, we'd see more Zangief wins even though Ken is arguably a better character. But people aren't going to choose Zangief over Ken just because the gap is small. Overall representation will be a bit more varied, yes, but for the most part people who want to win will still pick the better characters, while characters like Zangief and Dhalsim will mostly be picked by loyalists. Those loyalists will enjoy a smaller gap in balance between those characters, and that's good.
There's an alternate universe where Evo Moment 37 was Daigo on 1 pixel of health throw looping Justin Wong in the corner from full health to dead.
bup
its funny that they redesigned gief to not be a character who just loops 50/50s over and over and then redesigned the rest of the cast to loop 50/50s over and over in the corner
The irony is so insane lol
Gief still has his good old 50/50s with that +4 ob
@@108strawberry key word here is *looped* 50/50s
Obviously gief gets 50/50s but the issue is that once he gets you once, he has to let you go back to neutral, where he is designed to struggle. Meanwhile dj luke ken etc, just drive rushes full screen, gets in for free, and then 50/50s in a loop until you die. XD
@@SuperLemonfish that’s true, fuck throw loops
@108strawberry Everyone gets + in block loops with drive rush button and throw loops. Also shoto can anti air if you jump forward
Part of it is just that you need to be completely on top of everything at all times. There is so little 'downtime' where you can reset your brain. If you're not having a great brain day, it can be very hard to do well. Part of the reason I have been toying with learning Dhalsim lately is that he just seems to be able to play a different game, one that gives me just a second here and there to reset...
😗👌🔥dhalsim main here, keep at it, it's 100% worth it. It's a lot of work and you WILL get tilted sometimes but on god, sf6 sim is legit one of my favorite characters in any fighting game. He literally does play a different game, and that game is marvel vs capcom. He has command flight and shit, just fly away at full screen to stall for meter like storm; its like mvc2 dhalsim in slow motion😂 Dude is hilarious at every level of play, the sky is the limit with how filthy your mixup game can potentially become. torimeshi for example plays like an asshole, it's so funny. you get to be ice cold and just say "yes, i'm plus. hold the left/right overhead/low strike/throw mix. oops i teleported in place instead of going in, nice DI whiff." I made the Piccolo Vortex video my entire personality 💀
I can't tell you how much i appreciate teleport out of the corner, teleport into DI, and generally getting to roast mfs with marvel mixups in a street fighter game. Plat 4 if you're curious, i still have a long way to go but its been a blast every step of the way, even the DI spamming silver juris and gold kens. I can't tell you how many ken players i've killed because they forgot about the upball as soon as it went off screen. I love forcing 50 different versions of whatever thing works on them from anywhere on the screen, people get PISSED bro
@@danknstein6504 I'll definitely have to keep working on him. The ability to have extra options and extra ways out of the corner, etc. really appeal to me.
I THINK Torimeshi is the reason I started in the first place. Was watching some Topanga. I was just really impressed with how well he used float for positioning and how much movement he had with it, and also how he would use air fireball as a way to almost frame trap or get around/over things.
Sim gets mauled in this game and has no good button to check DR. He was the second character I picked and is currently my most played.
The system mechanics make him very weak. Not just DR either, forced knockdown makes his teleport considerably weak. Lastly, he has no counter hit into a medium button, he has to DR cancel to be able to do that. You also have to burn bar to combo out of his jab combos without a DR.
On top of that, scaling on jab combos has been increased, so both of those routes are made weaker as a result. He's an extremely meter hungry character and he doesn't get any damage for that investment.
Like I said, everything in this game is against his entire playstyle. You're playing from behind before you even get into the match. When it goes well, its fine, but you really feel all of these mechanics in his gameplay.
@@WutTheDeuceGaming The Jab change definitely hurt him a loooot more. I hadn't considered that.
Never skip brainday folks... lest the p.e. teacher throw loop you in the corner
Saying that this game is balanced, but unstable is definitely the right call
Agreed, would bringing damage down help? The high damage potential ends matches quickly and lessens the interactions which is how we see who plays better is my thinking. It’s so volatile due to getting a couple guesses wrong can often be the round.
@@surtrpicksthey need to nerf bison istg that’s my only complaint 😂, maybe give kimberly something, manon as well
I feel weird about calling it unstable, how many weeks straight have nuckle du and punk been in the top 3 of like every online tourney. Punk seems to be the same in can opener as he was in sfv nlbc.
How many of the top 6 of Evo were a shock? Mena not making it was surprising but like half of them were repeats from last year! How that isn't closer to predictable than unstable I don't really understand.
Nope, the fact that everybody has their own S-tiers in their tierlists, it doesn't mean the game is balanced. It means every single character in this game plays exactly the same.
@@surtrpicks They already nerfed light combos by 20%. Starting a combo with a low mk already scales damage by 20%. All normal throws are 12% compared to 14% on average in SF5. Damage in SF6 is already MUCH lower on average compared to SF5 unless you are literally blowing all your drive and CA3.
Typo in description, "stabiltiy"
Minor spelling mistake, unsubbed.
I never want to hear the name "Broski" ever again
@@themouselessdev8655 I bet Broski isn't even his real name
Went to the bathroom and I finished. Flushed.
Got a bunch of comments out of it, just a content strat
He is dead to me.
I agree with you that the game "feels" balanced mostly, but that it also feels random. To borrow a physics term, I think it's more like "Unstable Equilibrium", where the game/object is mostly in balance until something (very easily) tips it over, rather than it naturally coming back into balance.
This game trash. SFV is wayy better
@@kelvin303sfv proximity block from half a screen away just means scrublords who randomly throw shit out in neutral are rewarded
@@kelvin303skill issue
The "unstable equilibrium" you're talking about is Ken or Akuma ubering you from California to Florida because you didn't block low for a split second and now you're losing 70% health to shimmies.
I think cr medium kick drive rush is easily the most tilting thing in this game. You get your toe touched once, and it's 40 percent with these characters or immediately in the corner.
Sometimes both
SFV better
I thought I was the only person but it’s like goddamn why do I have to lose half my health over one human error .
@@kelvin303agreed cause it has alex and its a final state of a game, sfvi is just getting started
Blocking low and watching people automatically drive rush because theyre plinking the input is always pretty funny though, if you just put on defense they tend to burn themselves out super fast.
I still feel like checking drive rush is too big of a risk. Introducing a hurtbox in front of the drive rushing character would help that without affecting any combos or pressure.
you cannot check 2mk into drc jab
@@DeathDasein I'm talking about neutral DR, not checking block strings or frame traps.
@@DeathDaseinyou can’t check anything you didn’t block into DR unless it isn’t a true string. Which after master barely ever happens
@user-wy1et9dk9w you know that ain't true.
KOF games are pretty offense-heavy, but at the same time you also got good defense options. You can wake up roll to get out of corners for free (unless opponent OS for this); block and then spend a bar to do a guard-cancel CD (similar to drive reversal but much faster and safe on block). I think buffing drive reversal is a good idea.
This is anime fighter logic, they wont add rolls to this game, its intended to be broken like this so scrubs can buy the game since anyone can win now
What if getting thrown would build your drive meter.
It would add another layer of mind games, where the person getting thrown gets more meter in exchange for getting reseted back into the blender, while the person doing the throwing has to accept the fact that the opponent now has more resources to threaten them with a wake up OD reversal.
In a funny twist it would give someone the incentive to let them get thrown because they want to replenish their drive meter. It would also deter the opponent from going for the throw. It would add an interesting and organic layer of mind games to the throw loop meta.
I get the idea, but i think this is not a good one. The mecanics are made to reward the one who is making the right choices and reads, so this will be agaist that.
This is similar to the COD death streak mechanic, where the player gets an perk for getting killed a lot, like dropping a grenade that detonate 50% faster, getting more damage for a limited time and etc. Extremely annoying.
Nah cos that's rewarding you for losing. It would be better if throw loops were removed but throws removed gauge and could stun when in or caused burnout to keep shimmy threat.
@@lainahtan13 its not a huge reward. It just adds more depth to the throw loop meta on higher levels of play. Capcom likes the throw loop mini game, so instead of trying to get it removed, you could make it more interesting.
I like the idea but I think it creates a huge problem during midscreen oki. Everyone will take the throw there. Especially against characters (like mine) that can’t get real pressure afterwards. Take the throw and parry the fireball simulator.
@@SparkyForce Its hard to say how it would affect the meta in the long run. I just like the idea that there is more depth in the throw loop meta, which comes from the resource management aspect of the game. SF6 is all about resource management after all. That is what Capcom wants from the game.
I think the balance of this game is pretty solid but it is VERY snowbally. Once you lose a interaction it takes insane reads to get anything back. Especially with the crazy frame data of characters making Drive Reversal borderline useless. A change I'd make is make Drive Reversal push back a bit more on block to make it reset more space.
SFV better
@@kelvin303not even close lol, SFV was trash
@@MrCFBaddefinitely isn't. It started out ultra oppressive then toned down to a place where it was a pretty healthy game.
If SFV is trash, then this game is worse than that. It has the same braindead rush down meta SFV had when it released.
SF6 has taken steps back in that regard. Defensive options are viable in SFV and throw loops were all removed, along with crush counter fishing. This game's defensive mechanic is garbage, game has throw loops, and fishing for DR cancels dominates.
An Invincible reversal that's safe on block?
That isnt always a bad thing dude@thecoolkid440
i have no idea who you are... but literally every gripe you have... is the gripe i have..
1) cr. 2MK Drive Cancel = Lazy as fuck mechanic and why the fuck is this a true block string?
2) throw loops lazy as fuck
3) coast to coast corner carries? when has this ever been a thing in SF?
all valid points and i relate completely.
DONT FORGET ABOUT SCREEN FREEZE EATTING UP INPUTS
WTF?!?!?
These 3 and too high damage are the main problems. Looping oki where if you try to avoid the throw you eat 50%+ is just so dumb.
Just a thought: when streaming you should never say "I think the character balance is good, do you guys agree?"
People are sheep, so giving your view first corrupts the data. You should just say "What do you guys think of the character balance right now?"
seems like an ai training advice
I agree, that was his first mistake to start with his opinion.
Or he should say the opposite opinion and see how they respond.
It’s also known as a leading question
To be fair, people who are that easily swayed would also have their opinion based on the last tweet/streamer/video they've saw. It still wouldn't be "good data".
Hear me out, what if the wall broke after enough pressure and the game resets back to neutral?🗿
another guilty gear enjoyer I see
Man I'm gonna have to take you to the back and put you down for that comment.
And the guy that broke the wall recovers all drive meter 🗿
And if they throw you 3 times in a row then the floor breaks Tekken style
Nah dude
Real "Aw, dang it" hours.
Best comment
It is somewhat validating to hear a player/creater i respect echo the same opinion ive had off this game for the past 8 months. The biggest issue with sf6 is the conversions, the corner carry, and throw loops. These things by themselves are not necessarily bad but together they make things frustrating to play/watch
The world warrior stats very much so fits into the idea that throw loops and crmk>dr are too strong/oppressive since characters that constantly use them are at the top while the character most susceptible to both(Marisa) is in dead last.
bUT shE HaS DaMAgE!!! (in a game where most other characters can do 80% the damage she has with much easier access to it, a good crouch MK, plus good oki, footsies, safety, throw loops, a reversal, good buttons... )
If you say Marisa is bad anywhere, sf6 players (who dont play her) will fly over to any comment you make to try and "educate you". Literally said this on FrameWhisperers latest video and got flooded. She can't compete with characters who have the tools she does not. So she has to take more risks that ultimately get you killed, or do nothing, hold block, and get you killed.
Those combo routes were not a fair trade for losing scutum in the corner"
As someone who’s a couple weeks in and still learning ( Chun Li main ), can you elaborate what makes Marisa more susceptible to cr medium DR and throw loops?
Genuinely curious because I want to learn how she plays
@@sammythijs8641 inability to bust out using a invincible reversal thats not level 2. This combined with your amour being beat by lows means you get one tapped touched into a corner combo and you have to hold it until you get level 2.
@@sammythijs8641 Marisa is slow, has a wide hitbox and has limbs and specials like gladius that stay out for long periods of time and are easy to punish with a strong crouch MK > dr punish. Not only that but all of Marisa's moves with armor, her defining feature, lose to lows and other moves that hit her around the waist except for EX counter, which you can't use in neutral. Every single one of her moves except level 2 and level 3 supers lose to throw, and she has no other way to defend herself from throws. She has a backdash so slow that the opponent can whiff a throw and still punish her if she tries to backdash in the corner. Losing one interaction vs Ken, Luke, Cammy etc means being put in the corner and having to 100% guess to get free.
I kinda hate the fact that a lot of characters get oki after forward throw. I think the game would slow down a bit if they couldn’t keep up pressure when I decide to take the throw midscreen. Its nearly impossible implementing this without changing a ton of framekills though
@@LeoDUN269 SFV is better
Or do it like SFV did, where you have just enough oki to do a meaty normal of some kind but NOT a meaty throw, meaning that attempting to go for a throw would always lose to your opponents wakeup lights and even some mediums maybe.
You take the throw and end up in a worse or just as bad position as If you took the throw it's so annoying.
Blanka hits you with lk into electric and takes oki or throws you and gets the exact same oki
This is what makes ryu so strong now besides the high damage! He seems to get oki off of every damn thing and it's a nightmare because I play Honda.
The issue is DR.
It was a mistake and you cannot get rid of it, unless you wanna break the game.
It could have been interesting, now is just making op charaters even more OP, and kinda make the game go rushdown.
I hate it and I also use Ken, but one has to be honest.
Normal throws beating out command throws is an insane concept. Overhead normals that take the character off the ground being throwable as if still grounded is insane.
Normal Throws are way too overpowered.
While it's definitely important for there to be the stability for top level competitors, i think capcom has to prioritize the experience for casual and casually-competitive folk and rightfully so, thats the majority of their audience and their cash flow. They like instability bc it creates big emotional swings when playing and watching, and it gives them some hope to get occasional wins on slightly stronger players. An occasional won set on a stronger opponent is a fantastic experience that sticks for weaker players and usually just a minor annoyance for stronger players that is forgotten, except in double elim tournament where randomly lost sets is devastating. It also results in a wider pool of people winning and its not just the same 2-3 people winning every time but a pool of 10-15. Its not like a random nobody is winning but the shuffling around of people in the top 8 gives a cooler experience to people who casually tune in and don't care to invest time following specific players and storylines, instead being excited to see different playstyles and characters at the top level.
Tl;dr I think the top level competitors are going to have to suffer bc it benefits the core audience of casual/casually competitive players and watchers
This should have more upvotes. It's virtually impossible to simultaneously balance for casual player enjoyment and pro tourney consistency- there's just too big a gap in the way the player experiences the game.
Debating the nuances of balance based on elite-level tourney results misses the point that Capcom clearly wants a certain element of randomness or snowballing bc the casual audience, both playing and spectating, is more engaged by exciting swings of momentum than cold calculated predictable outcomes. And at the end of the day, casuals are what drives most of the game's engagement.
Fighting games are not chess, they never have been, and making them like chess would be a mistake.
Agreed. I consider myself casual-competitive and love occasionally taking games off people who are pretty clearly better than me without it just being a total casual fest that completely ruins competitive play a la smash bros brawl
Cater to casuals by making good offline content not this instability.
so basically make more money via participation trophies. got it.
I used to b fine w throw loops in the beginning but I’ve gotten over my gambling addiction
I like Broski's point, but I'd also point out the pros have access to the same tech. Gaps in power between tiers is small. There isn't a lot of extremely demanding tech execution so that's not a big barrier for the best pros. So then it comes down to your RPS decisions and it's hard to consistently win those.
@@chrisludwig4729 SFV is a better game
@@kelvin303 SF4 is better than SFV
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Doesn’t change the fact SFV is better than SF6. Honestly i think SFV is even better than 4, much more balanced, graphics better, gameplay similar, Vskill/trigger changes the gameplay for the better. So many characters. SFV is the best Street Fighter game to date.
@@user-et3xn2jm1uboth of you are right tbh sf4>sfv>sf6
I think something important to consider is the high variance is also likely a result of the generally higher level of play in the modern era. There aren't really players that can get so far ahead as to be untouchable.
That might be but the game is still too volatile. Driverush + stupid amount of corner carry + throw loop guessing + high damage combos + only bo3 rounds
@@icantthinkofaname2722 Nah, dude. OG post is correct. You're just parroting what this degen streamer guy said. All these "onlypros" are upset that the gap has closed. Gone are the days of keeping your tech to yourself. Gone are the days of dominating a game simply B/C you play more. You, on the other hand, are probably just terrible at SF altogether.
Yeah there isn't a single best in the world gamer who stomps everyone else, but I feel like the whole top 16 of every tournament is mostly names I recognize.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u yeh but you probably recognise like 200 names. Care to try to pick the top 8 winners of the next cpt?
Could change throw loops so they only work by drive rushing. Already the case for a few characters, just unify it across the roster.
Do I smell cooking over here? 😳
Making successive consensual blender torture more commital sounds smart to me. To inituate a guessing game, you gotta spend some Drive. 🤔
Then again, I don't even play this game. 😅
That's a pretty decent idea. I still agree that throw loops need to be a thing because of Perfect Parry but having a drive cost on each one no matter what character would definitely make people use them less, especially in top/pro level play.
Wouldnt this result in little or no okizeme after a throw?
@@guitaroach True. Not really a way around that, which would effectively cripple multiple fighters already riding the struggle-bus, being most (if not all) grapplers, yes? 😓
Bummer, but super insightful on your part. Thank you! At least now we know this change would suck lol 😅👍
How about no throws on wake up at all?
I also think that modern FGs give you access to way too high damage way too easily. For example, it wasn't that simple to combo into an ultra in sf4. Most of the time, combos into ultras required specific setups and/or 2+ bars of your super gauge. You also couldn't get an ultra without losing health. And supers were used alsmost, like, never, because the super bar was directly tied to the FADC stuff. Not to mention, the damage was scaled really heavily. In sf6, for contrast, you get a 60% combo by canceling your bnb into lvl 3. The super bar fills way too fast, the scaling is limited, and the execution, most of the time, is not that hard. So, when someone at 50% health gets clipped, you can basically just skip to the next round.
so true. it's so weird knowing that the round is about to be over at 50% health with one long drawn out combo.
When I look at the people who qualified for the esports world cup, I see nothing to suggest to me that the game is random.
There are maybe 5-6 people that could have been replaced by a handful of other folks. But the majority of competitors are the same people who reliably make top 8 at any premier/major/tier 1 tournament they enter.
It's true that often, it's perspective and ability to access the level of detail and degrees of distinction. Somebody who is a pro at that level is going to be saying something that is very deep and unquestionably true in some way, and us plebs are not going to see those aspects that make it true.
But that doesn't mean they can't suffer the same kind of delusion from their own narrow perspective.
I hope the video isn't calling it random... Gonna watch but that'd be wild. Punk and nuckle du win the same tournament every week or nearly every week. Players are absolutely able to show consistency.
I think the fact that this game, and Strive for that matter, doesn't have the same couple of people winning consistently every time is more about how many top players the game has and less about the game introducing some aspect of randomness.
I dont think people winning consistently means the game doesn't have a bit of randomness. Pros are pros off of fundies alone. A pro can play a broken game and win majority of the time just because he has more experience and natural skill than others
@jpVari fwiw, it is third hand from an interview that broski cites tokido doing with Ryan Hart. Broski is just expressing his view what aspects of the game make it more unstable than 4 or 5 were.
@@jpVari nitpicking two really good players who consistently player really good characters doesn’t mean the game is consistent. They’re the outliers not the norm.
It takes a pro player doing a video essay about this subject for the tenth time for people to understand that more aggressive games equal less stable games?
Strive, Tekken 8, and SF6 all decided to go for more aggressive, guesswork heavy gameplay and they are all paying that same price.
The corner-carry situation is actually huge because, among other things, throw loops only happen in the corner. The amount of pressure you can put on a corner know down feels pretty appropriate for me but it's way too easy to get to the corner without meaningfully sacrificing resources or meter. Andof that wasn't enough, a certain top tier that absolutely doesn't need it also gets free side switches on his main combo routes or with his reversal super just in case run Tatsu combos weren't enough
funny how broski demonstrates clear as day what the problem with drive reversal actually is and everyone here is saying to make it unpunishable, or even plus on block. holyyyyyyy shit lmao i hope capcom isnt listening to any of you
I feel like they basically already solved this issue in SFV and I really liked the way they did it so honestly I just went them to do that. Manually remove throw loops for every character with a little more push back when throwing in the corner and add an invincible metered back dash similar to v shift.
I think speeding up drive reversal along with this could help tackle the button -> drive rush we see so much.
Or an interesting one might be to add more pushback on block for some of these safe cancelable normals, forcing you to drive rush for longer at max range and thus not be a true blockstring? Just an Idea I had that could be interesting to explore.
Make the stages bigger and/or reduce corner carry and I think we’ll be in business. Eating one combo from round start and ending up in the corner flipping coins is not a fun time, and just because both players can do it doesn’t make it good game design.
You're bad.
@@intellectic9155 You know I've thought about what you said and I think you're right, one random cr. mk leading to putting your opponent in the corner is peak game design.
Make a gap between the blocked crouch medium kick and drive rush, so not a block string or reversible in between, or super drive reversible (3 bars) that you can choose to have a better frame data
tbh the developers really wanted to focus on making this game spectator focused. I also agree that watching this game is very fun. Playing it on the other hand is very exhausting
Except throw loops. Idk how anyone at Capcom looks at pro players getting thrown 3-7 times in a row and thinks it's exciting or appealing to anyone, especially spectators.
@@munchatize_me It's no fun to watch, be on the receiving end, or do (debatable on the "do" part, cause some people don't care and just want the dmg)
I think on wakeup people should have access to an invincible roll on wake up that can swaps sides, kind of like in KoF at the cost of 2 pips of drive meter. That way throw loops still exist if people don't roll, but there is a way to get out without giving the defender a get out of jail free, since getting out can burn them out or they are at such a huge meter disadvantage they won't always roll.
Or maybe Capcom can reintroduce wakup ex dp FADC in some form. A reset with little risk, but extreme meter burn on the defender side.
I don't get Capcom's obsession with oki. It's the least interesting part of street fighter.
im new to sf6 and i gotta say, not being able to cancel into DI *in reaction to their DI* out of any grounded normal is by far the stupidest thing capcom has “added” to sf6. its more like it removed TWO of my SIX buttons. im sure modern controls being FOUR buttons and allowed in ranked has nothing to do with that at all. nope. RIP 5MK and 5HK.
as for modern controls being allowed in ranked, all the people defending it don’t understand how theyre hurting the game for new players and scrubs (aka most of the players that play this game). i cant execute a full combo every time, i cant hit confirm before going into a combo consistently because *im not at that skill* level. (keep in mind the youtubers and pros will tell you that you NEED to face people at your skill level to get better).
modern controls delete that issue entirely, meaning anytime im paired up against someone using modern controls, it means im LITERALLY not matched with someone “at my skill level”. all the youtubers defending this horsesh!t only make the problem worse. its like watching billionaires say “the economy isnt that bad” yeah stfu 🙄. this dude using modern controls can
-> instant dp
-> instant super
-> will not go to an unsafe attack UNTIL THE GAME registers that i didnt block an attack, then it does it automatically
-> auto combos
if it wasnt for modern controls they wouldnt be able to execute ANY of these things consistently. last i checked thats a *skill* issue with classic controls. logically, im not matched up with someone of my skill level if theyre using modern controls and im using classic controls. this is not an issue past a certain rank, because the SKILL LEVEL of the classic control player is now at the level where the things i mentioned arent an issue
most players are NOT at that skill level
which means most players getting matched classic vs modern are in a genuinely unfair fight. its so stupid.
oh ya, also the input interpreter is garbage. not an issue i have in 3rd strike. there are moments in matches where i dont do moves id like to do because i have no faith that the move i want will come out. i dont have the problem in 3rd Strike. i looked into it, this is another issue people have been bringing up since launch.
overall character balance does feel good. honestly it feels GREAT. i dont feel like i auto-lose when im matched up vs a certain character, rather i feel like if i knew their moves and frame data id be able to win off my skill and game iq vs someone at my rank.
this is an issue though. i cant go into training mode and experiment with characters i didnt pay for. you can imagine how this makes learning to fight AKI, Ed, or Akuma feel kinda lame. id also probably have purchased all of those characters by now if i could mess around with them in training mode.
theres no way im buying a character as strange as AKI without at least being able to try the character out. this part of fighting game monetization needs to be re-evaluated (let me, in solo practice mode, use the dlc so i can learn how to fight them on characters i own). 🚮
If you see them constantly DI your moves, just use your cancellable buttons to poke/pressure so you can still catch their DI.
I keep saying they should just add FADC mechanics to drive impact and remove 1 hit of super armor to compensate for the buff. If you get caught on a DI you can spend a ton of drive bar to FADC out.
@@ShellShocks14 I'm not sure how long you've been playing but the game is pretty generous with Rental Tokens, I had 10 before i knew it and they are good for one hour of playtime in any mode except online. Its also worth noting, you can watch replays of characters you don't own unlike another certain garbage clusterfuck game, so you can at least learn frame data with that display enabled for characters you don't own.
I 100% agree with you about fighting game monetization though, every one of these games charges like they're disney world while delivering a waffle house tier user experience in return. If Garbage Clusterfuck was free to walk in the door instead of 70USD minimum, i could have potentially forgiven its grimy monetization, but they chose to lie about it and say all sales final after they altered the deal. Absolutely disgusting that capcom is now the least shitty operation in town, but credit where it's due: they are FAR less shitty than they used to be. They aren't charging for patches anymore at least, and despite them charging for literally everything else they can manage, i prefer it this way. I didn't buy Ultra sf4 (I didn't have 40 bucks for a game i'd bought 3 times already) so that game died 2 years early for me. I can still play sf6 online, if this was 15 years ago i'd be stuck playing with the same 4 people who also couldn't afford to buy the whole ass game again, AGAIN, just to buy nerfs and new undisputed top 1 character 😂 I'll never forget buying mvc3 twice in one year.
Hard stuck in platinum long history
The character balance is good, because lots of characters are viable and can win a tournament. The “meta” or the “state of the game” is certainly “interesting” as Tokido put it, because the game is indeed explosive, volatile, and you can just die off being wrong twice, or more specifically, it is extremely easy to be put in a near unwinnable position in a round, as you get put into the corner and/or burnout.
If you play against the wrong guy and they burn you out they can literally just walk forward while jabbing and put you in an infinite blockstring that pushes you into the corner for like 35 seconds.
the system mechanics need to change somehow. Nothing major, but maybe a half dozen small-to-medium adjustments. leave the characters as is
Goichi said he wouldn't play any character that can't reversal cr. mk DR and I feel like this has been echoed for a while
this is why dj was never that good he was just cheap
@@ΚρανίΩ deejay has a flash kick so he meets the criteria, he just can't mash it
I slowly stopped playing Marisa because I just needed that extra inch for a Cmk DR. The shit is strong as fuck
The problem is, this IS most likely what Capcom wants. They don't want the same players winning over and over again.
So it’s like street fight 5 but more thought out?
@@powerup931 It's even more random than SFV. Punk and Bonchan both dominated SFV for like half a year in SFV. Nothing like that has happened in SF6.
While it doesnt seem to be a big issue competitively I feel like Drive Impact kinda emphasizes this too, like even if you don't use it and can react to it reliably, just anyone in the match using DI means someones about to take a ton of damage lol it's a very all or nothing kinda thing
Or not if you just block it and both fighters get back to neutral
@@LeyoRawI think they’re probably talking about the corner.
@@Aeby2886 SFV better game
Idk it always feels to me like DI is just an extra thing sitting on top of other issues, if there are issues. I've even come around on the DI checkmates, because most characters can mash Super 1 if they see it coming, so it's really if you just spent level 3 AND burned out that you're fucked, which is a resource management issue more than a DI issue. This game has massive mental stack though.
@@LeyoRaw It's better to fish perfect parry and DI back
Get rid of throw loops and make high and low parries separate so you can low shimmy people or open them up with overheads if they chose the wrong parry option.
I would also make jumps automatically counterhit if AA'd so they drain drive bar. Very little reason not to jump against a lot of the cast rn.
I think you just invented blocking.
@@Bomber679 perfect parry would still exist this way but yes
What would balance this game is giving every character a move that can be executed safely during drive rush for a counter and giving better DI distance to slower characters for balanced pressure.
everyone just does too much damage. 5k, 6k, 8K! damage combos are just too high.
The only thing concieveably worse than throw loops existing is that the entire roster doesn’t have access to them for some reason.
Nah it's good to not be homogeneous
Some ppl having mid screen throw loops is kinda crazy
Oh no, character weaknesses exist!
I think it's fine if it's not universal, and they're hardly necessary. Chun can't throw loop and she's still excellent. Sucks for Honda but it's Honda so, like, eh.
It’s dumb, not all characters have plus on block buttons, not all characters can crmk DRC, not all characters have throw loops, not all characters can block string 3 lights… I don’t understand this shitty game.
I'm so glad you brought the corner carry in this game! You're the only person I've seen mention it!
They should shave a couple frames to bdash. I like making dreversal startup faster also.
Ppl really gotta start wakeup bdashing, and capcom should do it to where its neutral vs shimmy delayed cr mk, maybe u make the last couple frames strike invincible but not projectile invincible. (I still want bison mine, blanka doll, and Kimberly spracan to blow up bdash as intended.
Probably just making bdash faster is enough. U land a light combo and get out of the corner.
Sf6 has ALOT of defense. Ppl gotta cycle their options better or they deserve to lose.
I understand watching that noah clip is uninteresting to watch as a spectator (MvC3 will always be the best spectator sport), but realistically u gotta be willing to try delay tech. Obviously, its only worth it when the enemy is close, which the other player looping noah was very close, you CAN mitigate the guess with trying to react to their offense with delay tech (obviously its a very strong defensive option when used correctly , its an absolute catch-all to any offensive opponent within grab range, which is why, even when it works you stay in the corner)
Updating the throw system in any way i think is welcome to us as spectators, but there is absolutely a lot of defense in the game.
Buffing backdashes sounds good to me. I am not just saying this because I main Chun Li who has the worst backdash in the game that can't even punish meaty throw. I promise.
Light K/P buffer drive rush was super common until they made it so you could DR cancel jabs on whiff. Maybe they should make mediums the same? That way buffering into drive rush has some sort of risk for mediums
the only thing that i genuinly dislike about sf6 is checking raw dr feeling random
a solution, although veeery situational, would be to have the grey healthbar (the thing that you get after getting hit during successful drive impact) whenever being thrown repeatedly after wakeup, so that it doesn’t break any mechanics but forces the opponent that loops throws to stay aggressive until they can confirm life drain. Plus, even if it forces the other player into defensive play, they can at least get back on their feet without such a massive setback from this unfortunate interaction while also making throw less and less of an option even faster
On throw loop DRC. I think it's also worth mentioning that within 2 throws you've built back about 2 bars, so now you can reactivate pressure. So the fast drive rush characters can just charge back in after a throw tech or something of that sort, which makes it even harder to dig your way out the corner. You're also taking drive gauge damage the whole time you're blocking, so when you do get out you often don't have the resources to redress the life deficit. I remember Daigo saying that it was good that SF6 didn't reward turtling, but I think this also is why there's so little neutral in this game and loads of unga bunga - offence snowballs.
I agree on drive reversal. I used to think -6 is too punishable, but it would be fine if it hit more reliably and encouraged reading it like a wake up reversal. Worst case trading 3 bars for 2 in higher level play makes DRC off low forward a worthwhile risk while also making it less braindead easy.
+1 to the longstanding idea that drive rush should be punish counter state the whole time.
Throw loops need to go. It's still a 50/50 if you have to guess between meaty or a throw 2 frames later. You could still get thrown to heck in SFV.
I think drive reversal on hit should create a lot of space, but on block should leave you in range for a medium punch punish. If the best you can get is like light kick tatsu as a punish (~900 damage) people will just be throwing it out all day.
My concern with adjusting drive reversal to where you can react to low forward drive rush is that if you can consistently beat it, then the option becomes so much weaker. Button into drive rush costs 3 bars whereas drive reversal only costs 2, so if drive reversal can reliably be used on reaction then theoretically no one should be using button into drive rush as it results in a net loss of 1 drive gauge (mental stack may change this in reality however). Now that may or may not be preferable but I think drive rush has become too core to SF6’s identity for Capcom to be too eager to change. I could be mistaken though
That's a really good point
I think that would be a good thing Because part of the problem I find with drive rush is due to how it gives so much reward with very little hit. Canceling a poke into a drive rush gives the user all the more time to confirm weather it hit or was blocked and if blocked get to go into your blockstring pressure and mixups all the while every single one that is blocked is replenishing your drive guage while depleting theirs. And if you hit, you can easily go into your big damage combos, corner carry, hard knockdows and continue to snowball your pressure. Making it so you could more reliably drive reversal it I don't think would even change the risk reward out of rushes favor. It would just make it a little more committal as then you'd havd situations you may have burned 3 bars of drive guage for nothing.
What do you think about all cancellable normals being drive rush cancellable on whiff, like they did with lights? Would even out the best characters, corner carry would be the same, but the opening -and thus the corner- would be harder to get.
So this video and topic are amazing and you literally were on the right track with your opening points, but over focused, i feel, on the small examples. Like you mentioned 05:15 its all of these components when they come together that make this game so volatile. When i said you were on the right track and then lost it, is here 03:24, 05:15, 09:24 where you mention it but dont double down on it. LOW RISK, HIGH REWARD. The examples are nice for explanation and examples behind the points being made but they are just one small part. You stated you felt that increase the cost of neutral drive rush was a bad idea, but personally I think thats a great idea for consideration. Why? Increasing the cost of drive gauge to use neutral drive rush INCREASES the RISK REWARD in terms of resources and puts you in a situation where now you could be placing yourself at a disadvantage if you overextend on committing to gaining an advantage. That should always be the point of committing to a high rewarding strategy. You commit to something advantageous at the cost of resources or the risk of it failing and you paying a big cost. Wake up OD reversal, if blocked using means you eat a big punish counter combo/damage, which is where the risk and reward is balanced. Otherwise people would wake up with their best reversal option non-stop. So when you were on the right track in the video, i personally felt if you double downed on the fact that drive rush IS low risk HIGH REWARD ALL THE TIME….BECAUSE…you can neutral drive rush to close the game and make on block moves plus or on hit extremely advantageous, cancel button into drive rush and be safe, or extend combos for huge damage, all for minimum of 1 bar in most cases outside of cancelling a button AND still get 2-3 OD moves in that combo with some characters. Thats a lot of possibilities and advantage and TIME taken away from your opponent for what? Half a meter of drive gauge because a lot of times you can gain a bar or two back in the combo or on block mind games of is he gonna throw, shimmy, or frame trap me setups…. If we increase the cost of neutral drive rush, players will have to consider burnout WAY MORE OFTEN. Meaning, and unfortunately, it does slow the game down, but if makes for less chaos and unbalance between the characters who currently have the best use of the universal mechanic, and grounds the player to think on a more level playing field with characters like Dhalsim or Manon who dont really get to play the same game as the most picked characters in that graph you displayed.
Another key and overly abused mechanic that is also LOW RISK and High Reward that you didnt mention, that people downplay because throwing is its only counterplay, you guessed it, Drive Parry. Because people have had more time to develop themselves in this game and with the mechanics, I, again, personally feel that Drive Parry may be the single most worst thing in this game and needs the biggest or more immediate rework, even more so then drive rush currently. Yes. You can grab it and punish counter it. But the window to do so is so small. 12 frames (after they nerfed it from 8 frame windown.) Its frame 1 start up, with a 2 frame window upon activation for perfect parry (which is OD mad Low Risk High Reward), an additional frame added to the window when parrying fireballs from crouch (apparently i was told), and if you fail to perfect parry, but you blocked the attack successfully using drive parry, it, without seemingly any additional negative frames, allows you to transition into regular blocking free of charge. Now i said seemingly because I have a setup with Bison that if you parry my attack, i can punish counter your parry still. So i dont know if there is any slight additional recovery or if my setup is so fast and frame tight that even tho you normal parried my button you still have a small window to get punished countered before making a full recovery. Im getting off topic but my point is there. Drive Parry leads to free blocking to avoid guessing wrong. Which in someways slows down the would be aggressor because if they keep pressing you can just mash/tap parry, perfect parry with no risk of getting hit and then get, not only a full punish counter combo of your choosing at the cost of reduced damage, but who cares about the reduced damage when you gained corner pressure or setup win conditions, for free, like Bisons psycho mine. Its a single button input to parry if you have it macro’d. Its every characters best anti-air option and mixup option. Why? Because we saw it in Noahs fight against NL. Pros and most players would rather take a 2300 or less damage normal throw, then take any hit into minimum 5k damage without breaking a sweat. I felt it was cool to see early on when cats were using Drive Parry/Perfect Parry to counter season 1 Kens Dragon Lash, but once more people got used to the mechanic, they just got lazy. They just toss it out whenever without thinking because it is low risk. After jab. After job. Bet if you got in fist fight with one of them IRL they would default to trying drive parrying you if you ran towards them.
And lastly, yes. The throw loops. They nerfed Back throw for whatever reason. Some character who had butt forward throws had good back throw setups and they took that away, but left in the overpowered low risk high reward normal throws. And i say low risk, because in terms of throw loops, you beat parry. if your throw was meaty, you beat jumps. If your throw was teched, you end up in anti air range, practically with the best positioning you want in the corner.
Basically the game developers need to reassess the low risk high reward universal mechanics. Compare how they are used between the characters and offer a way to balance it so we can play Street Fighter. Shake things up a bit.
Honestly I am new to the game and just learning basic things, all the things that high level players are constantly complaining about fly right over my head, probably over most of the player bases heads honestly. My goal is to one day understand all your SF woes
I think the balance is solid, they might be playing with fire with the "robbery" characters with stuff like the Gief buffs. We might not know how good we have it right now.... I think some characters while they absolutely should be viable, are better off being on the lower end of the tier list for the health and enjoyability of the game. I dread a season where like Gief and Manon and Marisa are truly top tier characters.
I think perfect parring and less importantly drive impact can be adjusted / improved in many ways, but I'm not sure what they can do with the Drive rush system or the throw loops ( the loops being balanced fine, but just leading to some insipid gameplay scenarios) . It might just be a case of the game being what it is. I'm not sure there's a good way to make DR more redactable, and i'm not sure punishing it harder with a punish counter state or something is a good idea either, especially as you look into who would benefit from such system changes. The situation it puts you in and the whole concept of how drive rush gives plus frames to a mixup is just a bit problematic and homogenizing in itself.
Maybe add a metered forward roll on wakeup or some shit like Alpha 1/XT that beats drive rush pressure and throw loops /gets you out the corner but can be punished hard with other things on a hard read? Idk. Seems like a can of worms. They probably need a new mechanic to mitigate the bad elements of these other mechanics somehow as I'm not sure how to "fix them"
My only other issue with the game is with the characters themselves. I personally don't find a lot of them very fun / interesting gameplay wise. There are a lot of "this is a 3/5*" Right now when I look at the roaster. They did a great job with just a few characters, and merely a "good" job with most of them.
interesting read. can you elaborate a bit on why you think drive rush having punish counter state wouldn't work?
I just think it be a balancing nightmare. It would make characters who are already decent at stuffing DR better at it, but more importantly some characters would get much more damaging and consistent DR punish counters than others. They weren't tested or balanced around this. It's also a bandaid fix, the real issue here is lack of consistency, with the speed, the "input eating" freeze just rewarding you more when you do happen to actually stop it doesn't really solve the core gameplay problem.
I genuinely don't know how to fix it, but that's the devs job anyway. To broskis point about DR cancel ( mainly off low forward) being too strong / random as well, it's also hard to fix, because it's kind of a core tool and strength of a lot of characters. They would need quite a bit of reworking to compensate imo. You could easily fix it but making like, Drive reversal faster / more effective when used against a character in a drive rush state, (you could even add redparries lol )but do you want to? a stronger Drive reversal makes EX DP more redundant for one.... part of me wouldn't be opposed to adding initial scaling to crush counter DP and CC wiff throw punishes as these are so round defining. but again unfair to certain characters.
I have a scrubby idea i'd like for later on in the games life when it has 40+ characters which is that moves that are positive on block should have a slightly different block sound than negative blocked moves ( this would feel natural as most are Drive rush moves anyway) This won't tell you how positive something is, but it will help players play with purpose rather than memorizing which handful of normals are actually positive on block. it would also be useful on offense, so for example Cammy will know when her spiral arrow is positively spaced.
I won't be playing this game constantly, so if I return after a year or two off I think it's a big ask to memorize it all with a bunch of new characters. As a Guile player, I still cheese some people with Forward-HP which looks negative as hell, but i'm actually +3, I just don't think the knowledge checks of this sort are very important.
Another Idea i've played around with is adjusting Perfect parry to be a per move basis. Anti-air perfect parry is a bit of an issue now so simply making all jumping normals a 1 frame parry window would mitigate this. I think some moves like Guiles Sonic boom, JPs spike or Hondas Headbutt / buttslam should probably be easier to perfect parry, maybe make them a 4 or 5 frame window rather than 3. I would have preferred this to how they changed honda in season 2 in particular. Jabs and shorts and such should probably be tight 1 or 2 frame perfect parry windows, it just removes a bit of the volitivity to the game while keeping it an option and a truly "hype" and skillful comeback mechanic. Perfect parrying multi hitting moves giving an advantage like less PP scaling would be neat as well, if maybe a novelty. It would be cool seeing players perfect parry every hit of a reversal super 1 to optimize instead of just regular parring it.
to help with the high damage issue, rather than just nerfing damage and buffing vitality, I think one thing they could do is simply remove the extra damage from counter hit / punish counter. You get so much damage from the combo / setup off landing these already that the extra damage on the first hit just isn't needed. if you ask me, the level 3s getting a low HP damage buff is dumb and not needed too, but that's here to stay.
Yeah it’s definitely to hard to get out of the blender, you’re completely right m.broski
Drive reversal probably should work as a counter to drive rush, yeah.
What I want is to make crmk not cancelable into DRC in all characters, make Drive gauge recovery slower, big hurtbox in front of raw drive rush.
How did we go from having to spend tons of hours in training mode practicing crmk single hit confirms in SFV to any random masher in SF6 being able to get a crmk cancel combo and put you in the corner or killing you for free… this is insane.
We are at the point where character balance is almost irrelevant because the general meta of get the opponent to the corner with over powerful offense and guess/mix them to death, is far too strong. Problem is, Capcom want this because they want the ability for ANYONE to win. If you think you have a chance, you're going to take part and Capcom's aim is to have as bigger userbase as possible (more profit potential). I'm not sure what the fix is but one thing I think they need to do is make correct reads/guesses lead to rewards. Attack should beat throw, so if you read throw and you're right, you get to deal damage gain position, NOT remain stuck in the corner.
Agree. It really does feel like the matches are 1-2 neutral encounters and then the match is over. And the neutral doesn't feel exciting because 90% of neutrals is just trying to clip them and then it's drive rush, corner carry, 7K damage. The matches get very stale. Just Wong said a while back that a delay wakeup option could help balance. I'd be interested to see that. I also think some of the trade combos are unfair.
I think they should come up with a system that enables a faster recovery the more you get thrown consecutively. After the second throw then they don't get a loop anymore
Drive rush eats your input. They need to fix it.
Even Tekken with rage art didn't eat your input.
I'm not a good player, so my opinion is..yea.. but I think drive impact should be 3 bars of OD instead of 2. Thanks for coming to my talk.
It seems like the problem FGs always run into is they introduce system mechanics that benefit a portion of the cast more than the rest, so those characters naturally rise to the top because they play the game better. If a FG is gonna introduce a rush down system mechanic, I feel like they should also include a defensive mechanic that might benefit less rush down characters more to help balance it out.
People gonna complain anyway
My bad systems suggestion as a complete casual: blocked normal DRC doesn't actually move you forward (maybe there's no pushback on block for the attacker too), but you still have the same frame advantage as before. So, midscreen you're still safe on that blocked normal, but if you want to actually move in you're going to burn those plus frames which would maybe let the defender have some opportunity at counterplay. Once you actually have them *in* the corner, blocked normal DRC creates those strong vortex situations like before since they don't have anywhere to get pushed back. This also doesn't impact DR's role in the combo structure of the game since on-hit it'd just behave like it does now.
I think drive rush into light button should be reversible on reaction. Right now if you drive reversal you eat a 6 frame punish and if you don't you have to guess button or shimmy after the light. I also think however that if you don't hit a light button you should probably be able to block the drive reversal but then this means you have to guess every drive rush which is essentially the same thing as before so the issue isn't solved. If they just speed up drive rush this means any practiced player can completely shut it out as a approach option. I'm guessing this is the dilemma they reached as well
1:40 like i guess but that's nearly a uniform distribution compared to old games like sf3.
Based Broski back at it again 😂.
Crapcom has been on this horrible path since the hot, flaming piece of garbage that was SF 5 came out.
Consistently improving offensive options, and increasing damage and how easy it is to do it, while making defensive options worse and more risky.
Back in the BEST SF days, we used to have CROUCH TECH, and invincible backdash, wich pretty much prevented this throw loop shit from happening at all. It was the "cheap" option. Remember how we also had safer DPs on wakeup due to being able to FADC many of them? And by spending big resources on this "expensive" defensive option, THE OPPONENT WAS THE ONE THAT HAD TO REACT, NOT YOU. (React on the FADC Backdash or forward dash, wich usually were punished very differently, some characters could not even punish them at all, depending on the backdash and your available moves). Also note that, for most characters, to do optimal damage, it usually involved either 1 frame links or combos that needed complex timing, now...
We have fallen so low that one single fu*king throw tech could lead to you loosing a game by taking 60% of your hp and ending up in the same exact situation, but 1 guess away from being out of the match. even without taking super bar into consideration, the game encourages spend spend spend because it doesnt matter if you kill, since you get to start the next round with the W and fully stocked.
Dont get me wrong I like SF 6 in general, but I never had any desire to be competitive (> 1700-1800 MR aprox in sf6) since we left USFIV behind. The meta at top level gameplay is incredibly frustrating, and some times, even boring. I also dont make suggestions to fix the thing because exactly like you said, those end up being pretty stupid and dont make any sense in the end. I dont think there is a way to "fix" it, without turning the game into a whole different thing.
💯 agree. However I will say Drive Impact should cost more meter. Any mechanic you can throw out and abuse regardless of counter play should have a greater toll.
I agree with the corner carry that’s why I say DI on block shouldn’t wall slump you unless you’re in burnout
Back to 3rd strike we go
Make throw loops cost a bar and no meter gain on landing a normal throw could possibly fix it. Maybe give 1.25 bars on punish counter throw so it rewards you for making the correct guess on the parry.
That way they can **only** get a max of 6 throw loops in a row at max bar.
Drive rush cr MK + throw loops also make matches feel samey. It gets old watching it over and over again.
1. remove throw loops - I generally don't have a problem with throw loops but in a game like this where you get such few interactions, it really is very damaging
2. Better drive reversal - I think what you suggested is ideal. You don't want to reduce the cost because you don't want people spamming drive reversal, but for two bars it should be more guaranteed against certain moves. Especially since if you are using it, you are already in a disadvantageous state.
3. More health - I think having a meta focused around rush down characters like ken and akuma are fine, but it's kind of nuts that in the third round If guess wrong twice, I'm dead.
I get that they want a slower game, but it feels bad to travel to a tourney just to lose your first game in less than 90 seconds of total game play. I'm not actually sure if I've ever gone to time on a single game of SF6.
I do like the idea of making drive reversal a bit quicker. It doesnt need to be super fast but it could use some tuning.
could they make drive rush in neutral 2 bars, but keep it 1 bar at buffer/link/reversal timing?
I know you mentioned that changing the cost of raw drive rush or low forward drive rush would break the combo structure of the game, but honestly... maybe that is what is needed to happen. It is literally Drive Rush Fighter 6 the game. Take out the highest level of player base because honestly, they are the outlier, and let's look at the core player base. The casuals. They do not play like the top 1%. They drive rush on top of drive rush.
It is like playing against Noah, but everyone is doing it, all of the time. So breaking the whole combo structure if it was for the better of the game is 100% viable. Just do it with the larger patch at the end of the year if it requires too many resources for one of the smaller patches mid-year.
do you think making dr lights negative on block break things?
Yeah, make reversal really good. Due to parry and drive rush, there really is nobody on the roster that is super hard to walk down. I mention this because V reversal was the end of Gief's viability in SFV.
This is probably gonna sound goofy as hell, but what if they made changes to recoveries? Like in Tekken and MK, there's usually a few different recovers you can do, such as delaying them, rolling forward, not just in place or back.
It would make the opponent have to temper their offense more. And you could make so, for instance, if the opponent rolls forward, give them temporary invincibility, but they can be punished after if you do a read. I dont know how it would work frame data wise, but it'd give you more options other than "guess right or die"
Having your opponent in the corner is wayyyyyyy too powerful imo. And it feels like every single character can get constant oki into all sorts of throw loops, frame kills and safe jumps.
If you were hell-bent on nerfing drive rush for some reason, another alternative could be to make it to where whenever you do drive rush you couldn’t just block during the animation; you would have to either parry or continue your offense/combo. That way if they want to extend pressure, they’ll have to play RPS on the defensive player’s terms.
What if they applied drive gauge regeneration penalties for certain actions.
example raw drive causes a slow decrease of the drive refill speed for a period of time
but that penalty increases if you DR from a Med button and even more from a Heavy button so that it’s a bit more committal but doesn’t change the cost and would give the devs levers to adjust up or down moving forward.
I don't get why you try to pretend we can't nerf raw drive rush broski, I really don't think it is hard to code in the game "If combo count is on, then raw drive rush is 1 meter" and put raw drive rush in neutral at 2 bar... Like that, the combo structure is the same and it make drive rush from neutral more costly.
Is it convoluted as a rule? Yes, but when a system has a lot of intricacy and synergy between different rules, exception become the norm to work on.
And while I also feel drive reversal should be better, we need to remember that in a game with a parry mechanic, it could possibly lead to a lot of stalling/lack of incentive to go on the offense. So I feel drive reversal should be guaranteed on drive rush cancel but I don't know if I want it to be THAT good on wake-up.
It's not about how difficult it is to code the change, it's about how deeply ingrained drive is into everything. It's to the point where a change that feels small like changing the cost of drive rush etc. can have huge unforeseen ripple effects on the game to where it's very easy to create a change that makes the balance go ine step forward and 2 steps back on accident
@@yeahmemia Except we know the things that are affected by raw drive rush: Neutral (fireball drive rush and empty drive rush into a command) and combo.
If we want the combo system to still work while nerfing it for neutral, it is absolutely possible to create a condition where empty drive rush consume less gauge when there is a combo count active (aka the opponent is in hitstun) while making consumz it more otherwise.
It will take time anyway to see where the consequences goes, so while changes need to be carefully monitored, we also need to play it out at one point.
its not easy to code that the only way i'd say this works is if they program it to be like of the opponent is in hitstun dr costs one bar but then again ken ex fireball drive rush would just be one bar still, frieball drive rush would still be one bar if you confirm it, which is why its hard to balance
With how oppressive being in the corner is in SF6, we need more defensively variable options to getting out w/o risking everything, or buffs to current defensive mechanics like Drive Reversal. Throw loops are insanely boring, so a nerf to that where universally limiting the continuing pressure of the thrower I think is necessary. It sort of is like that mid screen do to back roll wake up, but not in the corner. Idk if a delay wakeup option would help but maybe it's worth trying so you can mix up defensive options on your opponent. Looking at a game like Tekken, there are a crazy amount of wakeup options to help keep your opponent guessing after their long combo and just like in that game not all are safe. But it's the variety that makes a difference.
Would the game be affected positively if we played 3 rounds to win per game instead of 2? Could that make the feeling of an FT2 more stable?
I think it is pretty well balanced, but I do think your suggestions are solid.
Agree 100 percent with you that the system mechanics feel like they need further tweaks and refinements.
What if drive reversal was a true counter to drive rush (game freezes until the reversal lands) like how drive impact is a true counter to drive impact?
I agree with you 100%, SF5 has issue with V-Trigger system that can rob the round once activated, SF6 system mechanic made the situation worse. Just check how many matches in world competitive stage that are done in sub 10 seconds and how many double perfect matches. This really shows how oppressive SF6 can be, land one stray hit into drive rush, you are in the corner, while SF6 has much better defensive mechanics than SF5 but from the aforementioned phenomenon, obviously the offensive and defensive mechanic balance need to be better. I think what you suggest to make driver reversal stronger definitely a move into the right direction! It’s disheartening to see some of the world best players couldn’t even make into top 64 just because of bad luck. Guilty Gear burst system also something I quite like, a guaranteed “get off me” unless got baited intentionally.
I feel like the game could differentiate between raw drive rush and mid combo drive rush pretty easily. If your opponent is under recovery from being hit, drive rush costs 1 meter, otherwise its costs 2. I think its a doable problem to work around.
I haven't played this game in months and it's funny to see that the complaints for season 2 are exactly the same as season 1
Its both extremely balanced and extremely volatile. SF5 Started the trend with normal > vtrigger cancel but sf6 is that whole mindset but on pure Peruvian cocaine ❄❄❄
Reducing overall combo damage so there's more of an opportunity to play neutral is a good idea, and increasing the cost of DR is a way to do that. They could also add more scaling after a DR. Two bars for raw DR is a reasonable change. You SHOULD have to spend more to maintain pressure. Reduce the cost of reversal and speed it up so it can actually reverse things and not cut your ability to shift momentum.
It might be a good idea to increase the length of the stage so the corner situation will be less crazy
This can be achieved through character traits, too, but my biggest wish regarding 6 in general is DR getting nerfed more because I prefer the neutral pace of previous entries over 6's. I feel like non-cancellable normals with great range/frames are overshadowed too much by cancellable button > buffer DR. A general nerf to Drive build and/or extending the whiff-cancel DRs of lights to mediums and heavies would be great to see, just to at least discourage people from going green mindlessly.
Raw drive rush outside of a combo situation should cost 2 bars, and parry should’ve been a forward input, not 2 buttons. That last one is huge because it makes it to where even I can manage perfect parries with consistency and I’m barely climbing past 1600 MR.
I agree with a lot of your sentiments. A lot of my frustrations in this game also lie in the mental stack and chaotic neutral
I think your point of representation is the key here. Just because the gap between Ken and Zangief is smaller, doesn't mean the gap in representation will follow suit. It's a numbers game. If more people were playing Zangief than Ken, we'd see more Zangief wins even though Ken is arguably a better character. But people aren't going to choose Zangief over Ken just because the gap is small.
Overall representation will be a bit more varied, yes, but for the most part people who want to win will still pick the better characters, while characters like Zangief and Dhalsim will mostly be picked by loyalists. Those loyalists will enjoy a smaller gap in balance between those characters, and that's good.