I have several EC Tuner brakes. Just putting it on tamed your load better than you said it shot without. If you kept going you would find that it would tune better. However, Eric says it will improve your loads…. Not that they will all be touching. Tuner was not a failure. Also, the tuner best use is to tune a decent load. I got a 7rem mag to shoot 175 ELDX with less twist than Hornady recommended. Started 2.5 Moa and ended up 1/2 moa with a hunting rifle.
Tuner Zero shots 1 and 2 ES = 3 fps. Tuner Two shots 3 and 4 ES = 33 fps. Tuner Four shots 5 and 6 ES = 10 fps. Tuner Six shots 7 and 8 ES = 11 fps. Tuner Eight shots 9 and 10 ES = 34 fps. Tuner Ten shots 11 and 12 ES =3 fps. Tuner Zero #2 shots 13 and 14 ES = 20 fps. There is a pattern here. Those shots with a velocity near to 2905 fps all had a similar POI, while the outliers (5) had drastic POI shifts. More than would be expected at 100 yards, and that points to a bad bullet/seating depth with a bad powder/primer combination. If you plot only the shots that had velocities around 2905 fps +/- 7 fps, then you will see the tuner was trying to do its job. However, the other rounds just muddy up the picture with their drastic POI shifts that a tuner cannot do anything about except make a oval POI trace. A tuner is often useless unless the velocity ES is under 20 fps, and under 15 fps is much preferred. Compared to your starting group of 1.7", all but one of these groups were better. That kind of says the turner worked, just did not make a silk purse out of that sows ear.
Yeah good observation! Was about to say the same. The tuner is not magic. It can’t fix that wide of ES from round to round. That’s a huge ES for velocity when you’re talking precision shooting. I’m getting around 15 fps ES with factory Hornady 140 ELD-M, which is phenomenal for factory ammo. I’m usually trying to be around 10 fps or a little less obviously if hand loading. You can only get so precise though so 10 is doing pretty well.
My suggestion would be to keep you face on the gun for each group. Don’t break you cheek weld. Not saying it’s why the shots were bad I’m just saying it can always help your group.
@@dahut3614 of course he can but there is nothing more consistent than being consistent. If you keep your face on the gun for the whole group you every time there will be a better group. I use a brass catcher just for this reason. Masterpiece arms makes a really nice one.
I love tests like this! Thank you. My humble input is that this is the anatomy of a scatter-node. 15.1 for SD is not bad by any stretch of the imagination, and, with the data presented and all things treated as equal, I'm seeing grotesque shifts in the point of impact with each setting change.
I don't think @EricCortina designed this to fix poor handloads if that was the case anybody could just come up with any load put the EC tuner brake and become sub moa even if the gun was incapable of shooting sub MOA combined but you do some good groupings with good hand loads and no EC tuner brake obviously everything gotta be in tune with each other keep up the good videos thx good day
This guy is misrepresenting the ECtuner big time...... And really it did tune his crappy load too...just not to his socalled liking... Dude is a Joke..
Before you blame the tuner I would be checking scope mounts and possible bedding issues. One other thing to prove it out you would have to let the barrel come back to ambient temperature.
Sometimes a load is so bad no matter what you do with the tuner it will only get so good and that so good is still bad. I had a similar result with a MagPro load. I loaded up 50 rounds all the same to test the tuner. It works, but if a load is bad enough it can't fix it. It was not a total loss because I was fire forming the new brass in the process. I do have a potential good MagPro load to test with only 20 rounds, and I will see how that goes. The bad thing is I am not sure how temperature sensitive that powder is. I did get a sub-MOA group a couple of times with the load I will be retesting and trying to dial in better, but it is a narrow window. There is no flat spot on the charge. Nice video. I have faith in the tuner, and it is a great brake. Nice video.
As per another comment From Lugs Bondo (?), it's probable that you needed to go further, especially as there was so much 'barrel whip' to begin with...you are dealing with a LOT of energy, and the harmonics could be pretty strong... but, a good try, just needed a bit more ;-) ammunition
Little tip. Don’t take your head off the stock between firings. I get it you wanna catch your brass. But the odds of head placement being in the same spot every time go up if you keep your head on the gun. Just rack it and send it
To maximize your results, set the tuner all the way to the rear, work up loads at this point, then start tuning just like you see in this video. I normally got 1/4" and less groups with this method, and the tune is very stable. Using the Browning BOSS system on various guns years ago, we were able to tune many loads, by shooting method explained in this video, two shot methods. You have to stop and clean the barrel periodically. Most tuners will help you find a very, very good group, but working up the load properly to begin with, will yield 1/4" and less groups, almost guaranteed!
Find a load that shoots under 1 moa consistently first. Then play with the tuner. There are too many variables here that could be causing you bad groups. Ive got an EC tuner brake and they work. If your is capable of 1 moa or better without the tuner then the tuner should improve it somewhat but it won't make strawberry jam from lemon spread
I have an ec tuner break on my howa. 6.5 creed. I'm not looking at it, and I can't remember off hand. But my tuner is set to something like 18. Even with a load that everybody uses for 6.5 creed. 41gr h4350. And a 140Rdf Keep going. Load up 100rds and take the whole day to experiment. That tuner will bring shots together. There is something like 70 settings if you thread the dial all the way out/off. I've noticed your testing is always small 20rd lots. And you go back to the closest 2 shots too quickly. Your groups will open and close and open and close. Be persistent. It will work Thanks for all the data.
You need to find a powder charge that has a low ES and SD combo, and then you can tune your load. I know this from my personal experience with an EC Tuner. If you look at the data from EWA Thoughts, your velocities are all over the place. While I appreciate the tuner content, and you did prove that a powder charge/bullet combo that does not meet certain criteria are not able to be tuned. Overall, I like your content and appreciate what you are doing for the reloading community.
@@claysonbonds2422 He admits that it is a "Bad Load" Tuners are only valuable when you have a load (10 -20 shots that have single digit SD and low ES) that is relatively consistent. I do most of my initial load workup at 100 yards because I don't want to walk that far for a target. Once I find some nodes, I then will do seating depths/tuner changes at 200 yards or greater.
@@claysonbonds2422 It only doesn't matter if hunting a deer at less than 100 yards or not much more and that is depending on the group size at 100 yards. It matters if you are long range shooting. The velocity has everything to do with the harmonics of the barrel. If it changes enough the groups get fatter. longer distances fatter yet.
I think you used a trigger word (no pun intended) when you said “failed.” My impression from your responses in the comments is that you did not expect it to fix a bad load, and would have been surprised if it did. I don’t think that came across in your narrative of the video itself. The tuner did not fail per se… It just didn’t succeed, if that makes sense. :-) Great content!
Nothing is loose or moving. It was all checked following this range trip. I am going to do a confirmation group with a known good load today that will be posted next Wednesday to confirm something has not went wrong with the firearm/optic.
Rob, I would try changing your seating depth with that load and see if you can find at what depth it tightens up, then try the tuner. The tuner is only going to help with a load that your rifle likes, not one that was shooting 4 inch groups to begin with. Enjoy your channel, keep the vids coming!
@@jacklucas7265 this is not the recommended use for the device so I don't know what the point of that would be. If it would have tuned this load I would have been surprised.
Changing a seating depth works similar to a tuner. But sometimes it doesn't do any better. Eric Cortina suggests starting long and shortening bullets by .003" until they group better. But Rob's idea of leaving this expensive project is much better than continuing to waste more money. There is nothing promising about this load to begin with. If there was a glimpse of something positive it might be another story, but this load was a disaster.
If you haven't already done so, I would take a close look at your action's bedding, check the barrel channel to ensure the barrel is free floated, and make sure your action screw torque settings are tight and consistent. Note that small diameter barrels will heat up fast and, if there is contact with the stock, your point of impact will change as a result.
My brother had an HMR in 6.5 CM. It was very inconsistent rifle even with multiple loads I made for it. It would get random sub moa group, and I mean just barely sub moa. I glass bedded the action for him, and it did become consistent sub moa shooter after that. It was not a 1/4” or even 1/2” gun after bedding, but it was a pretty consistent .75 to .900” rifle atleast. It was a success though cause before bedding it was about a 1.5” rifle. It must of been built on a Friday afternoon lol. I will say most HMR’s I’ve seen have been quite a bit more accurate than my brothers was.
I subscribe to your channel and appreciate your content, so don’t take this the wrong way. It’s a tuner, not a miracle worker. Now having said that, which may not be exactly fair, for me, in all instances except one, tuner settings below 10 would do the trick. But those were all cases where some load development had been done with just a muzzle brake prior to getting Cortina’s tuner brake. The one exception was a new experimental max load in my 6.5 Creed that I had to take the tuner settings into the 20’s to get things to start tightening up. Wouldn’t normally have gone to the trouble and expense but I just had to see. Good and interesting test. Just maybe take it a little further with the tuner settings and see what happens.
I think you’re asking way too much of the tuner to work on a load from a bullet your rifle clearly does not like. I think a far better test is to load up a similar velocity round with a bullet that your rifle does like and tune that. Also, you may have to go up above 10. On my Bergara which is in the same caliber I had to go up to 16 to get the load tuned with my EC tuner brake using Hornady 147 ELD.
Yes, I know the brake will tune a good load. The question is what could it do with a bad load lol. Going past 10 for me in this situation felt like a waste of ammo.
it looks like you gave up as it was starting to come in. I wish you had continued on up about 6 shots or until the group started opening instead of closing.
That could be true, but this load was likely never going to tighten up to 0.5-.75" so it probably was not worth wasting more components. I think it was time to move on.
I think tuners cause more problems and headaches for most people than they do helping. People get so wrapped up in "tuning" their rifle and loads that they spend more time wasting money and time throwing rounds downrange going in circles, instead of just going out and having fun shooting. I've seen these people at ranges, and it's depressing to watch 😂
I actually think I have a lingering problem with the rifle, I'm currently trouble shooting. The tuner has turned everything I've the thrown at it into a sub moa group.
You gave up, you should have kept tuning it. I would like to have seen if it would settle down on a bad load, there were many more settings to try. it may have tuned, it but we will never know. If you are going to do the test, complete the test. This “test” neither proved or disproved anything. It did prove that I waisted my time watching it.
It's made to tune your best load... not a stupid random charge load. Cmon.. U obvious making a product that does infact work, look like it doesn't work... This is a sabatoge of the ECtuner.
@@RobsReloading well this video is very very very misleading to the newbies who's looking to fine tune their loads.. I'm a believer of this tuner, have it myself, and use it to tune my best loads afterwards..
@@RobsReloading considering it's a muzzlebrake all in 1 VS other muzzle brakes that's near its price, it's not so bad..... or be smart, I have a 30cal ECtuner Muzzlebrake and I take it off and use it on my 30cal and smaller rifles... chances are u never gonna use all them rifles at the same time to need one on each.lol...
I have several EC Tuner brakes. Just putting it on tamed your load better than you said it shot without. If you kept going you would find that it would tune better. However, Eric says it will improve your loads…. Not that they will all be touching. Tuner was not a failure. Also, the tuner best use is to tune a decent load. I got a 7rem mag to shoot 175 ELDX with less twist than Hornady recommended. Started 2.5 Moa and ended up 1/2 moa with a hunting rifle.
The tuner goes multiple revolutions. you stopped as it was starting to tighten up. Keep going.
Do not forget you can go another complete revolution on the tuner, you also need more than 10 to 20 rounds to do a test
Tuner Zero shots 1 and 2 ES = 3 fps.
Tuner Two shots 3 and 4 ES = 33 fps.
Tuner Four shots 5 and 6 ES = 10 fps.
Tuner Six shots 7 and 8 ES = 11 fps.
Tuner Eight shots 9 and 10 ES = 34 fps.
Tuner Ten shots 11 and 12 ES =3 fps.
Tuner Zero #2 shots 13 and 14 ES = 20 fps.
There is a pattern here. Those shots with a velocity near to 2905 fps all had a similar POI, while the outliers (5) had drastic POI shifts.
More than would be expected at 100 yards, and that points to a bad bullet/seating depth with a bad powder/primer combination.
If you plot only the shots that had velocities around 2905 fps +/- 7 fps, then you will see the tuner was trying to do its job.
However, the other rounds just muddy up the picture with their drastic POI shifts that a tuner cannot do anything about except make a oval POI trace.
A tuner is often useless unless the velocity ES is under 20 fps, and under 15 fps is much preferred.
Compared to your starting group of 1.7", all but one of these groups were better. That kind of says the turner worked, just did not make a silk purse out of that sows ear.
Exactly! If your combustion isn't good then tuning it can only do so much.
Yeah good observation! Was about to say the same. The tuner is not magic. It can’t fix that wide of ES from round to round. That’s a huge ES for velocity when you’re talking precision shooting. I’m getting around 15 fps ES with factory Hornady 140 ELD-M, which is phenomenal for factory ammo. I’m usually trying to be around 10 fps or a little less obviously if hand loading. You can only get so precise though so 10 is doing pretty well.
My suggestion would be to keep you face on the gun for each group. Don’t break you cheek weld. Not saying it’s why the shots were bad I’m just saying it can always help your group.
I think he's proven that he's an excellent marksman, regardless of the broken cheek welds.
@@dahut3614 of course he can but there is nothing more consistent than being consistent. If you keep your face on the gun for the whole group you every time there will be a better group. I use a brass catcher just for this reason. Masterpiece arms makes a really nice one.
@@whiteman3075 That's probably why I see the guys with digital scopes like the Sightmark Wraith consistently shoot better. There is no parallax!
I get excited anytime I see someone else running an ec tuner brake, had mine around 6 months or so now and like it
I love tests like this! Thank you.
My humble input is that this is the anatomy of a scatter-node. 15.1 for SD is not bad by any stretch of the imagination, and, with the data presented and all things treated as equal, I'm seeing grotesque shifts in the point of impact with each setting change.
I don't think @EricCortina designed this to fix poor handloads if that was the case anybody could just come up with any load put the EC tuner brake and become sub moa even if the gun was incapable of shooting sub MOA combined but you do some good groupings with good hand loads and no EC tuner brake obviously everything gotta be in tune with each other keep up the good videos thx good day
This guy is misrepresenting the ECtuner big time...... And really it did tune his crappy load too...just not to his socalled liking... Dude is a Joke..
Before you blame the tuner I would be checking scope mounts and possible bedding issues. One other thing to prove it out you would have to let the barrel come back to ambient temperature.
Right off he told you it was a bad load. He proved that. I am sure he had all of his screws tight.
Sometimes a load is so bad no matter what you do with the tuner it will only get so good and that so good is still bad. I had a similar result with a MagPro load. I loaded up 50 rounds all the same to test the tuner. It works, but if a load is bad enough it can't fix it. It was not a total loss because I was fire forming the new brass in the process. I do have a potential good MagPro load to test with only 20 rounds, and I will see how that goes. The bad thing is I am not sure how temperature sensitive that powder is. I did get a sub-MOA group a couple of times with the load I will be retesting and trying to dial in better, but it is a narrow window. There is no flat spot on the charge. Nice video. I have faith in the tuner, and it is a great brake. Nice video.
I would have liked to see two more shots at 10 since the barrel was warm at that point, I think they were more valid than the first two at zero.
That #6 profile barrel is hotter then you think and will walk in you.
Looks like u were pulling it off some with your trigger press, which is way forward.
I for one thought it was an interesting test- for science!
As per another comment From Lugs Bondo (?), it's probable that you needed to go further, especially as there was so much 'barrel whip' to begin with...you are dealing with a LOT of energy, and the harmonics could be pretty strong... but, a good try, just needed a bit more ;-) ammunition
I think it was a good test and very interesting. My thoughts are that you have to find a load that shoots good from the start and then try to tune it.
Little tip. Don’t take your head off the stock between firings. I get it you wanna catch your brass. But the odds of head placement being in the same spot every time go up if you keep your head on the gun. Just rack it and send it
What we all already know it’s proven again shit in shit out
To maximize your results, set the tuner all the way to the rear, work up loads at this point, then start tuning just like you see in this video. I normally got 1/4" and less groups with this method, and the tune is very stable. Using the Browning BOSS system on various guns years ago, we were able to tune many loads, by shooting method explained in this video, two shot methods. You have to stop and clean the barrel periodically.
Most tuners will help you find a very, very good group, but working up the load properly to begin with, will yield 1/4" and less groups, almost guaranteed!
😊😊😊😊
Find a load that shoots under 1 moa consistently first. Then play with the tuner. There are too many variables here that could be causing you bad groups. Ive got an EC tuner brake and they work. If your is capable of 1 moa or better without the tuner then the tuner should improve it somewhat but it won't make strawberry jam from lemon spread
I have an ec tuner break on my howa. 6.5 creed. I'm not looking at it, and I can't remember off hand. But my tuner is set to something like 18. Even with a load that everybody uses for 6.5 creed. 41gr h4350. And a 140Rdf Keep going. Load up 100rds and take the whole day to experiment. That tuner will bring shots together. There is something like 70 settings if you thread the dial all the way out/off. I've noticed your testing is always small 20rd lots. And you go back to the closest 2 shots too quickly. Your groups will open and close and open and close. Be persistent. It will work
Thanks for all the data.
You need to find a powder charge that has a low ES and SD combo, and then you can tune your load. I know this from my personal experience with an EC Tuner. If you look at the data from EWA Thoughts, your velocities are all over the place. While I appreciate the tuner content, and you did prove that a powder charge/bullet combo that does not meet certain criteria are not able to be tuned. Overall, I like your content and appreciate what you are doing for the reloading community.
Why is that? At 100 yards velocity doesn’t really matter much for group size.
@@claysonbonds2422 He admits that it is a "Bad Load" Tuners are only valuable when you have a load (10 -20 shots that have single digit SD and low ES) that is relatively consistent. I do most of my initial load workup at 100 yards because I don't want to walk that far for a target. Once I find some nodes, I then will do seating depths/tuner changes at 200 yards or greater.
@@claysonbonds2422 It only doesn't matter if hunting a deer at less than 100 yards or not much more and that is depending on the group size at 100 yards. It matters if you are long range shooting. The velocity has everything to do with the harmonics of the barrel. If it changes enough the groups get fatter. longer distances fatter yet.
That load is craaaaapp!
Okay guys it's time for a East Coast Tuna test. get ya nets cause its a big tuna ya 🐟
I think you used a trigger word (no pun intended) when you said “failed.” My impression from your responses in the comments is that you did not expect it to fix a bad load, and would have been surprised if it did. I don’t think that came across in your narrative of the video itself. The tuner did not fail per se… It just didn’t succeed, if that makes sense. :-) Great content!
I would be interested to see if you could tune a bad load with a bullet that the rifle does like
With the gun shooting like that I would be checking your torque on the stock bolts and making sure nothing is loose and moving.
Nothing is loose or moving. It was all checked following this range trip. I am going to do a confirmation group with a known good load today that will be posted next Wednesday to confirm something has not went wrong with the firearm/optic.
@@RobsReloading pretty crazy that the poi can shift that much sometimes.
Same issue with my gen2 tuner from ec. Opened my groups WAY up vs no brake. Disappointed.
You needed to keep going. Number 10 was the beginning of it starting to tighten up.
Rob, I would try changing your seating depth with that load and see if you can find at what depth it tightens up, then try the tuner. The tuner is only going to help with a load that your rifle likes, not one that was shooting 4 inch groups to begin with. Enjoy your channel, keep the vids coming!
Not going to mess with magpro and the 142 matc king anymore. Going to move on to try the 147 eld with an extruded powder.
@@RobsReloading Send Cortina a copy of your video and see what his response is.
@@jacklucas7265 this is not the recommended use for the device so I don't know what the point of that would be. If it would have tuned this load I would have been surprised.
@@jacklucas7265 his response will be very close to mine.
Changing a seating depth works similar to a tuner. But sometimes it doesn't do any better. Eric Cortina suggests starting long and shortening bullets by .003" until they group better. But Rob's idea of leaving this expensive project is much better than continuing to waste more money. There is nothing promising about this load to begin with. If there was a glimpse of something positive it might be another story, but this load was a disaster.
If you haven't already done so, I would take a close look at your action's bedding, check the barrel channel to ensure the barrel is free floated, and make sure your action screw torque settings are tight and consistent. Note that small diameter barrels will heat up fast and, if there is contact with the stock, your point of impact will change as a result.
No contact between the barrel and stock. There is about 1/4 gap between barrel and forend.
@@RobsReloading Is the action bedded? What are your action screw torque settings?
@@njgrplr2007 the b14 hmr has 2 aluminum section at the action screws. It is not expoxy bedded or anything. Action screws are torqued to 60 inch #.
My brother had an HMR in 6.5 CM. It was very inconsistent rifle even with multiple loads I made for it. It would get random sub moa group, and I mean just barely sub moa. I glass bedded the action for him, and it did become consistent sub moa shooter after that. It was not a 1/4” or even 1/2” gun after bedding, but it was a pretty consistent .75 to .900” rifle atleast. It was a success though cause before bedding it was about a 1.5” rifle. It must of been built on a Friday afternoon lol. I will say most HMR’s I’ve seen have been quite a bit more accurate than my brothers was.
I subscribe to your channel and appreciate your content, so don’t take this the wrong way. It’s a tuner, not a miracle worker. Now having said that, which may not be exactly fair, for me, in all instances except one, tuner settings below 10 would do the trick. But those were all cases where some load development had been done with just a muzzle brake prior to getting Cortina’s tuner brake. The one exception was a new experimental max load in my 6.5 Creed that I had to take the tuner settings into the 20’s to get things to start tightening up. Wouldn’t normally have gone to the trouble and expense but I just had to see.
Good and interesting test. Just maybe take it a little further with the tuner settings and see what happens.
That load is just too crappy to waste money on with the standard deviations and extreme spread that he has. A tuner can't fix that.
Thanks for the laughs.
.7" is more than half the distance of 1.6" DO THE MATH.....
sorry i was looking at the drone add.Rob what are you doing letting these fake drone adverts on your site man .
I think you’re asking way too much of the tuner to work on a load from a bullet your rifle clearly does not like. I think a far better test is to load up a similar velocity round with a bullet that your rifle does like and tune that. Also, you may have to go up above 10. On my Bergara which is in the same caliber I had to go up to 16 to get the load tuned with my EC tuner brake using Hornady 147 ELD.
Yes, I know the brake will tune a good load. The question is what could it do with a bad load lol. Going past 10 for me in this situation felt like a waste of ammo.
@@RobsReloading …. I agree with you.
I would blame it on the b14 barrel being chrome lined and heating up.
It's not the tuner. How do you prep brass, measure load, seat bullets................... It's you
Wish I had more ammo to keep going with the test
Johnny would never make a load that bad 😞
it looks like you gave up as it was starting to come in. I wish you had continued on up about 6 shots or until the group started opening instead of closing.
That could be true, but this load was likely never going to tighten up to 0.5-.75" so it probably was not worth wasting more components. I think it was time to move on.
Check out Panther Hollow
He tested 3 guns and none of them would (tune)
A tuner will not make a bad load shoot good.
Good thing you know the gun will shoot sub moa with other components. It's slim pickens these days.
Don’t blame the tuner for a bad load…..
Sierra does not recommend MK for hunting from sierra
what's up Robert
You have a problem that no tuner will fix...
I think tuners cause more problems and headaches for most people than they do helping. People get so wrapped up in "tuning" their rifle and loads that they spend more time wasting money and time throwing rounds downrange going in circles, instead of just going out and having fun shooting. I've seen these people at ranges, and it's depressing to watch 😂
I think the only failure is your loading. This is for fine tuning, not turning water into wine 🙄
I actually think I have a lingering problem with the rifle, I'm currently trouble shooting. The tuner has turned everything I've the thrown at it into a sub moa group.
You gave up, you should have kept tuning it. I would like to have seen if it would settle down on a bad load, there were many more settings to try. it may have tuned, it but we will never know. If you are going to do the test, complete the test. This “test” neither proved or disproved anything. It did prove that I waisted my time watching it.
In my opinion if something doesn't show promise in nearly a revolution of the tuner then further testing would be a waste of my time and likely yours.
I watched a video where it took a number of full turns to have a satisfactory result. With this info in mind I still think you gave up to soon.
It's made to tune your best load... not a stupid random charge load. Cmon.. U obvious making a product that does infact work, look like it doesn't work... This is a sabatoge of the ECtuner.
Have you watched my other two EC tuner videos? The only reason I even tried this test is because how well it worked in the first two videos.
@@RobsReloading well this video is very very very misleading to the newbies who's looking to fine tune their loads.. I'm a believer of this tuner, have it myself, and use it to tune my best loads afterwards..
@@mryang3644 This is by no means a negative review, but it does show reality. If they weren't so expensive I'd have one on every gun I own.
@@RobsReloading considering it's a muzzlebrake all in 1 VS other muzzle brakes that's near its price, it's not so bad..... or be smart, I have a 30cal ECtuner Muzzlebrake and I take it off and use it on my 30cal and smaller rifles... chances are u never gonna use all them rifles at the same time to need one on each.lol...
That rifle shoots awful terrible
Disappointing. Feel sad for you.
load of shit dont buy it , I bought one it was only bluetooth distants.
6.5 sucks
Mi piace quando tira in dietro l’otturatore col pollice ! Una goduria. Sembra un ballerino ma non un tiratore