What Jordan and Douglas seem to be saying is that it's better for people to believe en nasse several big established bullshits to avoid people believing in lots of smaller modern bullshits. Whereas Sam is saying, "shouldn't we just believe less bullshit?".
It is funny that he criticized Harris's philosophy because it can be summed in 2 sentences. Quite telling from the man that says he would need hrs or days to explain simple historical questions of fact.
@@sebastianb.2921exactly. A prime example of Peterson being the antithesis of the Einstein phrase “if you can’t explain it to a child, you don’t understand it well enough” (paraphrased because I didn’t want to look it up 😂
I've no problem with the idea of some form of higher being beyond our universe. But people having the arrogance to claim they know if that being has any interest in us let alone give us rules to live by is madness
@@himynameis3664 And even if such a being exists if it doesn't interact with us in any way there's no way to determine if it exists so considering it seems pointless.
Sam is only speaking for his own individual circumstance, what he proposes to society has already proven to be a disaster. The social problems today are a catastrophe under secularism.
The audacity of Peterson telling Harris his thoughts could be summarises in two sentences 😂 the pure tolerance Harris displays towards this clown of an intellectual is saint like
@@janettedewar6617 Wait, are you drawing from Christianity to compliment Harris? You said it was "saint-like", as if being a Saint (which is a religious title) is a positive thing. Man, atheists just cannot stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it. You guys have had 2,000+ years to form your arguments and you still can't make a compelling one.
@@jannestrang Wait a second, are you stealing from Christianity to compliment Harris? How ironic. You call his approach "saint-like" as if it is a compliment. The title of saint is a uniquely Christian one. Man, you atheists just can't stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it. You've had over 2000 years to form your arguments, and you still have yet to make a compelling one.
@@jannestrang Wait a second, are you stealing from Christianity to compliment Harris? How ironic. You call his approach "saint-like" as if it is a compliment. The title of saint is a uniquely Christian one. Man, you atheists just can't stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it. You've had over 2000 years to form your arguments, and you still have yet to make a compelling one.
How ironic that you use the Christian title of "saint" to describe Harris. It's like being a Saint is a positive thing. However, that would mean you are being self-contradictory. Man, you would think after 2000+ years, atheists would have more compelling arguments to make.
Buddha taught inclusion (Love) 500years before Jesus. People also LOVE their family….so the Idea that love emanated from the Judeo-Christian construct is false.
Exactly... so does Zoroastrianism, just look at Cyrus the great who freed the Jews from their Babylon captivity. According to these people Jews and Christians came up with empathy. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The Buddha is in hell Jesus lives. The trouble with all these cult figures like Mohammed, Gurus, Buddha is that they were once alive & are now dead whereas Jesus Christ was once dead but is now alive. Why praise the dead when you can praise life?
And yet Sam Harris wastes his time in discussion with him. In this you are saying that everyone else is stupid to invite Jordan on their platforms. Who are you? I don't think I have heard you say an intelligent sentence yet.
@@IULIUSLXIX I could imagine that conversation. It's called a living hell. Having to listen to that lack if intellectual fortitude would be true torture.
They are not idiots. They are intellectually flawed, but intellectuals nonetheless. Labelling them as idiots creates further division and more importantly it creates an excuse to side with their ideology.
@@tek2490 Ideology? They have no ideology, especially Peterson. Intellectually flawed? Jordan Peterson is one of the greatest pseudo-profound bullshit artists of our time. He has mastered the art of sounding deep and serious while saying totally incomprehensible, mind-numbing idiotic gibberish and has parlayed this scam into a some kind of career.
The moderator is Douglas Murray. An influential thought leader in his own right. I have a mixed opinion of DM - sometimes love him, sometimes hate him!
Jordan Peterson: "Let me explain. It's Bibley Bobbily, Wibbly Wobbly, New Testy Westy stuff and for you people that's as clear as I can possibly make it, because if I did, the deep fathomless way of understanding my words would be lost.
But sometimes in marriage its better to bring peace to fighting then to always be right. There is beneficial application for not always being factually correct. And anyways, almost every female in the world believes in heaven whether they socially admit it or not, how they actually feel always shows up at funerals. So what Sam proposes simply will never happen because its in our biology to believe, especially females.
@@JasonTaylor90210 Illogical yes but some people just can't be bothered getting educated so God is an easy way out. I call it *_"Jumping off the Brain Train."_*
i'm from denmark. and we don't have that situation that religion is better that no religion. it's so rare that you meet someone talking about god in this country. and we are doing just fine. life is about making kids and if there's a deeper purpose, we simply don't know. religious ppl are just guessing.
You say that now but didn't you have a huge problem with Gazans? yes you did & that was a real faux pas. ~No I would not throw God out because you throw out wisdom. Without God there is no wisdom. Without suffering you can't get to heaven. Your poor choice.
@@janettedewar6617 you mean the "wisdom" of the bible?? Like supporting slavery, misogyny, rape and murder? Is that the wisdom of God you're talking about? Because he supports all of those things. To say people need to suffer to get to heaven is actually kind of evil, ya know 😆
Thats what I mean from the countrys that overcame religion and they are doing awesome, And I am a beliver in God, but religion even for me as a beliver was detrimental
Yea I'm surprised Harris never brought that up. There are plenty of countries in Europe that are less religious than the US and they are doing just as well or better. Certainly they take care of their people better.
@@georgesimon1760yes they do take care of their people better. Can't deny it. Why is that do you think? I don't think it has anything to do with religion or lack of it.
Why didn't harris bring up Finland or norway? Countries where very few are religious but have a much higher level of happiness and well being than religious counties because their governments serve the people, provide Healthcare, have good public services, and there is not a huge gulf between wealthy and poor. You can prosper and live well without religion
anybody else think douglas murray is the most overrated philosopher of all time? every conversation i've seen him in, he almost has worse conclusions than peterson
His views on accepting the death of innocents to justify the eradication of an evil element is worrying. To what end? A religiously provoked one. Or a genuine aim to eradicate a particular evil element over another. It becomes just politics at that point. What would Jesus say about today? And the speeches given in God's name?
Douglas Murray... you have to laugh doncha, he always steps up to the plate comedy wise. He definitely has a beckoning career in stand-up Peterson is a less able comedian, I think alot of his jokes and routines are well past their sell by dates. No chance in stand-up, too dull and repetetive. He's just not not fast enough on his feet. Still raises a few chuckles though, possibly for reasons he did not intend. Sam Harris is - as usual - calm, patient and erudite. A voice for sanity.
Ffs it's actually infuriating that Sam addresses all of the points he makes with such clarity only for everything he's said to be completely ignored a couple of sentences later. Douglas saying "we don't know that a leap into rationality will work" for Sam to explain that it has been and continues to be an incremental process that gradually works it's way up to a much more effective mode of being, only for Douglas to then jump back and say "well I fear this leap into rationality..." he literally JUST SAID it wasn't a leap, yet he'll continue to refer to it as that so his argument has any validity... completely disingenuous
They are arguing if it is better to keep Judeo/Christian religious belief/values/traditions rather than discard them entirely in favor of pure rationality The drawback that's feared of not preserving the Jewish/Christian religion is that what replaces it will be far worse
I can't think of a single country in Europe where the Primeminister/President whatever wouldn't be laughed off stage if he/she brought up God in the mix.
1:14, loved it. I have Epilepsy but my mother and her side were super religious. They thought i had a demon in me. Eventually when I saw a neurologist, the doctor said straight to her "did you ever grow up, there are no demons/devils. Your child has a medical problem. You need to be more critical for him and his life".
I love the patience of Sam Harris, Yuval Noah harari and richard Dawkins when they have to direct themself to limited minds. I am a beliver in God and their words do not contradict my belives. This people conversations makes me feel proud to be human. ❤
Does anyone else here get irked every time Jordan tickles the air every time he tries to explain something? Those silly hand gestures are just fillers to disguise an empty argument.
From our very ancient beginnings, humanity has always believed in some kind of creator being…this isn’t new, or foolish. Religion and Spirituality has its place in society and probably always will do. The problem is when the dogma takes a person’s ability to think for themselves. All religions have done that at some point, Islam continues to do it even now.
Agnost/atheist here and i do not want an atheist/asgnostic leader. I rather have christianity filling the void of religion then islam or any other world religion, because that is the choice.
It seems that maybe one fundamental key difference in viewpoints is that Harris seems to claim that reasonable adults do not need comforting lies to survive and thrive culturally and societally, and Peterson seems to claim that they do. Sam, I think, has more faith in the strengths and abilities of humans as individuals and various collectives than Jordan does.
Unfortunately there are too many people that think that atheist is synonymous with Satanist. It's not like they haven't been told half a million times by a 1,000 sources that they're wrong. What could and atheist actually know about what they do or don't believe in anyway. The idea that someone they would call a godless heathen could actually want the best for people is completely out of their reach.
I think Douglas Murray has a point. As much as I think that religions are intrinsically more damaging than beneficial, I also believe they offer some sort of immunity against external philosophical assaults, a bad reason to defend your home is still making you defend your home, remove it and you're left vulnerable to people who have bad reasons to break into your home, that's the problem caused by the elimination of a religion and the void left afterwards. Religions have always been a very powerful tool of control and they still are to this day but they are that 'bad reason' that gives people ground to value themselves and their community and if you erase it you're simply exposing your belly to the beasts who have their own religions, and they'll eat you alive, especially in our materialistic societies where consumerism is the new dogma. I think the solution to that problem is secularisation with preferential treatment regarding the local religious traditions, religions should be kept out of power/politics/schools, etc but you can't go willy nilly pretending all religions are equal, they're not, the ones that are part of your cultural fabric should be protected, whether they're true or not is irrelevant, what matters is that they are an integral part of the national lore and historical identity, same as any other tradition, language, folklore, etc.
The group-pressure for conservatives today to not fall for the christo-fascist narrative is huge. Jordan Peterson lost his mind over it and now Douglas Murray and also Ayaan Hirsi Ali are also falling for it.
1:38 - 1:44 I never hear anyone about this phrase but it's a sign that Peterson does not see value in Western society and that may probably be the reason why he refers to nihilism so often. Perhaps Peterson just as been depressie for too long and that's why he's the way we know him.
We live among people who choose to fool themselves. Keep the fables because folks might behave badly if they don’t believe the old bullshit? Ridiculous.
Jordan Peterson writes a confusing pocket book everytime he opens his mouth. Ask him if he's hungry and he'll go on a rant about the concept of hunger 😅
I think the top progressive content creators should have a gathering, live or zoom, to organize around a set of principles. Start by finding out what you agree upon and work outward towards the points of disagreement and figure out how to deal with the radical right.
I can appreciate Sam’s claim that “love” guided by reason is a noble endeavor; it’s an extension of Hume’s admonition even as Jordie points out it is also Biblically friendly. Sam appears to struggle with understanding that the religious instinct remains Mother Nature’s preference as global religious affiliation studies evidence. Mere reason alone will never be sufficient for its demise or evolutionary extinction.
Jordan: i like mine fairytale...its so wonderful. People should believe it. Sam: But its a fairytale. Im more interested in truth Jordan: but this fairytale is so damn good...why dont u try it ?
People long ago learned to love one another after a catastrophe pr during cooexistence troubles as it proved to be better for survival of our species than war. Peace is usually brought about by the the tiring of conflict after all.
the fact that this debate is even occurring in 2024 is proof that the average simpleton is alarmingly stupid. peterson and murray come off as insufferable idiots, and sam needs to move on from arguing about religion, which at this point is tantamount to arguing about the existence of leprechauns.
JP is hilarious. His words often run too far ahead of his thinking. Sam Harris tries time and again to bring him back to a more carefully thought out position. But I still like how JP brings a lot of passion along with his thinking (which is not in the league of Harris in my opinion).
Full discussion here: ua-cam.com/video/aALsFhZKg-Q/v-deo.htmlsi=3LsBSixs5pyH5HD2
What Jordan and Douglas seem to be saying is that it's better for people to believe en nasse several big established bullshits to avoid people believing in lots of smaller modern bullshits.
Whereas Sam is saying, "shouldn't we just believe less bullshit?".
As long as it isn't Islam I'm sure they'd say.
EXACTLY!
you deserve a beer my friend 🍺
Absolutely right. This is Conservatism. Any new meme is labelled as a religion.
I’m with Sam all the way
@rossini - Excellent summation. 👏
Jordan Peterson's super power is stringing together huge numbers of words and saying very little.
Bwahaha
Agreed, the word salad master.
Fortunately the cream rose to the top.
It is funny that he criticized Harris's philosophy because it can be summed in 2 sentences. Quite telling from the man that says he would need hrs or days to explain simple historical questions of fact.
@@sebastianb.2921exactly. A prime example of Peterson being the antithesis of the Einstein phrase “if you can’t explain it to a child, you don’t understand it well enough” (paraphrased because I didn’t want to look it up 😂
“We have no proof of any of our religious beliefs but hey, it’s better than nothing.” Thanks Jordan, great argument. Not.
So he is saying nothing is better than absolutely nothing?
I've no problem with the idea of some form of higher being beyond our universe. But people having the arrogance to claim they know if that being has any interest in us let alone give us rules to live by is madness
@@himynameis3664 And even if such a being exists if it doesn't interact with us in any way there's no way to determine if it exists so considering it seems pointless.
I feel like this is one smart person and two fake smart people in this conversation.
I think it’s two good people and one godless person.
I’d say your intuition is on point here Keith.
Sam is only speaking for his own individual circumstance, what he proposes to society has already proven to be a disaster. The social problems today are a catastrophe under secularism.
@@TomPekarcikUnfortunately that's only your opinion. 😂
@@TomPekarcikAnd don't forget, your God MADE them godless. It's predestined. 😂 So don't get your panties in a bunch. So negative.
The audacity of Peterson telling Harris his thoughts could be summarises in two sentences 😂 the pure tolerance Harris displays towards this clown of an intellectual is saint like
Duh, .......It was a 'discussion' not a game of heads up.
@@janettedewar6617 Wait, are you drawing from Christianity to compliment Harris? You said it was "saint-like", as if being a Saint (which is a religious title) is a positive thing.
Man, atheists just cannot stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it.
You guys have had 2,000+ years to form your arguments and you still can't make a compelling one.
@@jannestrang Wait a second, are you stealing from Christianity to compliment Harris? How ironic.
You call his approach "saint-like" as if it is a compliment. The title of saint is a uniquely Christian one. Man, you atheists just can't stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it.
You've had over 2000 years to form your arguments, and you still have yet to make a compelling one.
@@jannestrang Wait a second, are you stealing from Christianity to compliment Harris? How ironic.
You call his approach "saint-like" as if it is a compliment. The title of saint is a uniquely Christian one. Man, you atheists just can't stop stealing from Christianity to then try and discredit it.
You've had over 2000 years to form your arguments, and you still have yet to make a compelling one.
How ironic that you use the Christian title of "saint" to describe Harris. It's like being a Saint is a positive thing. However, that would mean you are being self-contradictory.
Man, you would think after 2000+ years, atheists would have more compelling arguments to make.
Buddha taught inclusion (Love) 500years before Jesus. People also LOVE their family….so the Idea that love emanated from the Judeo-Christian construct is false.
Exactly... so does Zoroastrianism, just look at Cyrus the great who freed the Jews from their Babylon captivity.
According to these people Jews and Christians came up with empathy. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The Buddha is in hell Jesus lives. The trouble with all these cult figures like Mohammed, Gurus, Buddha is that they were once alive & are now dead whereas Jesus Christ was once dead but is now alive. Why praise the dead when you can praise life?
@@janettedewar6617 How is Jesus alive exactly?
@@janettedewar6617 brainrot.
@janettedewar6617 Hell doesn't exist. Do you have evidence of what you claim?
Peterson can talk for ten minutes, say hundreds of multisyllabic words, and never approach the point being discussed.
Why is Peterson being invited everywhere to participate in intelligent discussions- he throws out words and says nothing, poor guy is nuts
And yet Sam Harris wastes his time in discussion with him. In this you are saying that everyone else is stupid to invite Jordan on their platforms. Who are you? I don't think I have heard you say an intelligent sentence yet.
he had good reputation when he gave class. Because of that he kept being invited. Hope it will end soon
Disagree. He knows his psychology. But I find him incoherent on religion and other subjects outside of his area of professional expertise
Sam is so rational and has a good dry sense of humor, I enjoy listening to his thoughts.
Yes right? Can you imagine a conversation between richard Dawkins,sam harris, yuval Noah harari and philomena kunck? 😂❤
@@IULIUSLXIX I could imagine that conversation. It's called a living hell.
Having to listen to that lack if intellectual fortitude would be true torture.
Shorter version: a very intelligent guy (Harris) attempts to talk to two idiots.
That felt exactly like that. He was trying to pushe some sense into them but they always seem to wanna reject it.
The atheists will win in the end. Cheers.
They are not idiots. They are intellectually flawed, but intellectuals nonetheless. Labelling them as idiots creates further division and more importantly it creates an excuse to side with their ideology.
@@tek2490 Ideology? They have no ideology, especially Peterson. Intellectually flawed? Jordan Peterson is one of the greatest pseudo-profound bullshit artists of our time. He has mastered the art of sounding deep and serious while saying totally incomprehensible, mind-numbing idiotic gibberish and has parlayed this scam into a some kind of career.
no, you're just showing your bias (and i say this even though i really dislike peterson and think he is an idiot)
Why is the moderator jumping into a debate between these two? It comes off as choosing Peterson's side. He should stay quiet.
he isnt a moderator in this
My thoughts exactly. They are there to help the conversation move along or seek clarification are they not?
The moderator is Douglas Murray. An influential thought leader in his own right. I have a mixed opinion of DM - sometimes love him, sometimes hate him!
‘Mercuns not only want a president who Believes in god, they want one who thinks He is god.
I hope we can survive this new dark age.
I feel bad when smart people have to talk to Jordan lobster
Sam Harris is one of my heros. He does not have a void…he is full in love.
Jordan Peterson: "Let me explain. It's Bibley Bobbily, Wibbly Wobbly, New Testy Westy stuff and for you people that's as clear as I can possibly make it, because if I did, the deep fathomless way of understanding my words would be lost.
😂
JP is certainly king of word salad
Believing anything based on faith is dishonest.
It's illogical.
I wouldn't call it dishonest; I'd call it "intellectually lazy".
But sometimes in marriage its better to bring peace to fighting then to always be right. There is beneficial application for not always being factually correct. And anyways, almost every female in the world believes in heaven whether they socially admit it or not, how they actually feel always shows up at funerals. So what Sam proposes simply will never happen because its in our biology to believe, especially females.
@@JasonTaylor90210 Illogical yes but some people just can't be bothered getting educated so God is an easy way out. I call it
*_"Jumping off the Brain Train."_*
You can only be honest about something you know for a fact, so faith is your gut feeling. It doesn’t even have to be religious
i'm from denmark. and we don't have that situation that religion is better that no religion.
it's so rare that you meet someone talking about god in this country. and we are doing just fine.
life is about making kids and if there's a deeper purpose, we simply don't know. religious ppl are just guessing.
You say that now but didn't you have a huge problem with Gazans? yes you did & that was a real faux pas. ~No I would not throw God out because you throw out wisdom. Without God there is no wisdom. Without suffering you can't get to heaven. Your poor choice.
@@janettedewar6617 you mean the "wisdom" of the bible?? Like supporting slavery, misogyny, rape and murder? Is that the wisdom of God you're talking about? Because he supports all of those things. To say people need to suffer to get to heaven is actually kind of evil, ya know 😆
Thats what I mean from the countrys that overcame religion and they are doing awesome, And I am a beliver in God, but religion even for me as a beliver was detrimental
Yea I'm surprised Harris never brought that up. There are plenty of countries in Europe that are less religious than the US and they are doing just as well or better. Certainly they take care of their people better.
@@georgesimon1760yes they do take care of their people better. Can't deny it. Why is that do you think? I don't think it has anything to do with religion or lack of it.
Why didn't harris bring up Finland or norway? Countries where very few are religious but have a much higher level of happiness and well being than religious counties because their governments serve the people, provide Healthcare, have good public services, and there is not a huge gulf between wealthy and poor. You can prosper and live well without religion
Peterson is proving to be a nut case.
anybody else think douglas murray is the most overrated philosopher of all time? every conversation i've seen him in, he almost has worse conclusions than peterson
His views on accepting the death of innocents to justify the eradication of an evil element is worrying. To what end? A religiously provoked one. Or a genuine aim to eradicate a particular evil element over another. It becomes just politics at that point. What would Jesus say about today? And the speeches given in God's name?
Douglas Murray is heads above you - who are you by the way, I am at a loss to find your name mentioed anywhere.
@@janettedewar6617 i didnt say i was better or more well known than him
To sum up this conversation. ‘Let’s behave as though we believe in made up nonsense’……Douglas and Jordan. ‘Let’s not’……….Sam.
Douglas Murray... you have to laugh doncha, he always steps up to the plate comedy wise. He definitely has a beckoning career in stand-up
Peterson is a less able comedian, I think alot of his jokes and routines are well past their sell by dates. No chance in stand-up, too dull and repetetive. He's just not not fast enough on his feet. Still raises a few chuckles though, possibly for reasons he did not intend.
Sam Harris is - as usual - calm, patient and erudite. A voice for sanity.
I can't stand listening to Jordan Peterson speak even if it's a video critical of him as the nonsense he spouts just frustrates me
Ffs it's actually infuriating that Sam addresses all of the points he makes with such clarity only for everything he's said to be completely ignored a couple of sentences later. Douglas saying "we don't know that a leap into rationality will work" for Sam to explain that it has been and continues to be an incremental process that gradually works it's way up to a much more effective mode of being, only for Douglas to then jump back and say "well I fear this leap into rationality..." he literally JUST SAID it wasn't a leap, yet he'll continue to refer to it as that so his argument has any validity... completely disingenuous
This whole conversation.
Two idiots: “A leap into full rationality may not ever work”
Sam: “Rationalization it’s the only thing that has worked. “
What the hell are they arguing about
Sounds like an argument for the sake of arguing
They are arguing if it is better to keep Judeo/Christian religious belief/values/traditions rather than discard them entirely in favor of pure rationality
The drawback that's feared of not preserving the Jewish/Christian religion is that what replaces it will be far worse
Congrats, you just discovered what a debate is.
Peterson talks a lot and says nothing
He loves the sounds of his own voice
And it doesn't matter what you ask, he never gives an answer that means anything. Waste of time. It's like reading a horoscope.
JP undermines everything he ever says but deluding himself so completely on his religious beliefs.
Simps cannot fathom their existence is meaningless. It’s hilarious.
Tribalism is not the bug, it's the feature the elite use to keep the underclass divided against itself.
Why does Douglas Murray value "the reincorporation of this religious substructure" in the West?
$$$$$$$$$ and views, many many views.
Yeah, religion is for the ignorant and those who see an opportunity in milking the ignorant.
@@kumaranvij murray is the definition of a grifting bootlicker
I can't think of a single country in Europe where the Primeminister/President whatever wouldn't be laughed off stage if he/she brought up God in the mix.
I think a lot of the eastern countrys could be ok with that. Here in the West its seen more like a show of gullibility.
2:11 “Give me an example” “Well there are tons of examples all the time!”
why do people feel they need a group or tribe. isn’t that an emotional weakness
1:14, loved it. I have Epilepsy but my mother and her side were super religious. They thought i had a demon in me. Eventually when I saw a neurologist, the doctor said straight to her "did you ever grow up, there are no demons/devils. Your child has a medical problem. You need to be more critical for him and his life".
Most poignantly profound statement:
"...motivated by love and guided by reason..."
Peterson is sounding more and more like one those crazy preachers.
The answer to Murray’s last questions is, millions of people.
It's hard to be rational with people who claim the Earth's 6,000 years old.
Am I the only person who gets exhausted by the tiresome pretentious bullshit that emanates from Peterson's mouth?
An inability to express an idea simply is either performative or ignorant. Even if you use some big words.
We have not gotten where we are through religion. We have gotten where we are by rejecting religion, which is rejecting dogma. Reject dogma.
"Where we are" is a loaded statement. Is where we are good or bad? How good or bad? Why?
I love the patience of Sam Harris, Yuval Noah harari and richard Dawkins when they have to direct themself to limited minds. I am a beliver in God and their words do not contradict my belives. This people conversations makes me feel proud to be human. ❤
Peterson's posture betrays his credibility.
Not everyone needs stories to understand free will
So basically the master needs the slave and the slave needs the master or everything will be new and awfully scary.
Telling people the truth is dangerous.
Other, more terrible, lies will replace the ones we've been telling, which have been pretty terrible.
Peterson has exhausted his bogus contributions, nothing new just more word salad bullshit.
Keep the stories and their lessons, if you find peace in them, but just lose the supernatural part.
My fear here is that people revere these stories because of their relation to the supernatural.
@@dustinhaas8538 I agree, but it's sad.
And quit making laws based on them.
Omg Sam, how do you keep so cool and calm!!??
Straight concise talk fron Sam and cryptic rambling from Jordan. Pretty clear to me who has an intelligent message here.
Lol the moment Sam said love
Peterson was like 'oh that's exactly what is Christianity' 😂😂😂.
Outstanding intellectual dialogue, thank you, most stimulating!
Why is there reverb on Peterson
Makes him sound far more intelligent than he is
It’s his higher tone and volume.
Does anyone else here get irked every time Jordan tickles the air every time he tries to explain something? Those silly hand gestures are just fillers to disguise an empty argument.
It's pretty irritating but the word salad bugs me the most.
To say that a belief in a fairytale is better than none,that it makes people better,is a perpetuation of stupidity.
Douglas Murray Summary: We can’t topple the dictatorship of a Saddam Hussein because a worse dictator might spring up. 🤦🏻♂️
the clapping after the shallow one liners from douglas and peterson never gets old 😭
I like to think that they randomly decided to have a debate in a giant cave
The argument that a rational leader erases other people's bigoted religious worldviews is totally a logical fallacy.
There is never a void of personal spiritual faith.
Murray is smart by half and Jordan is missing.
Wow I thought better of Murray
Rationalism is not a void
Sooooooo much bs comes out of Petersons mouth 💩
Every long sentence from him is wasted. It just becomes noise
"I think you can live a meaningful life without superstition"
"I don't think you can"
Sam is so right-on.
I cringe when Peterson's voice cracks at emotive words like "love". I hear something else , closer to self pity.
Give me the Red Pill every time, the religious groups can keep the blues.
From our very ancient beginnings, humanity has always believed in some kind of creator being…this isn’t new, or foolish. Religion and Spirituality has its place in society and probably always will do. The problem is when the dogma takes a person’s ability to think for themselves. All religions have done that at some point, Islam continues to do it even now.
I'm pretty sure that religion (mostly) comes from our fear of death and the nothingness that implies.
Humanity should be willing to dismiss religion at some point. It's necessary to outgrow it to survive.
Science and spirituality are the same - mystery is just science we don't understand yet
@@warren52nz I don’t doubt it. But again, it will always have a place in society.
@@Merriwether-w8k Exactly!
We sure have enough evidence of what harm religion has done so why assume that the absence of religion would do any more harm?
“The world that we generate from the chaos of potential”
The Jordan Peterson Institute of Word Salad.
Agnost/atheist here and i do not want an atheist/asgnostic leader. I rather have christianity filling the void of religion then islam or any other world religion, because that is the choice.
It seems that maybe one fundamental key difference in viewpoints is that Harris seems to claim that reasonable adults do not need comforting lies to survive and thrive culturally and societally, and Peterson seems to claim that they do. Sam, I think, has more faith in the strengths and abilities of humans as individuals and various collectives than Jordan does.
We will grow out of our infancy and throw off this need for silly stories to explain reality, death, morality etc.
Unfortunately there are too many people that think that atheist is synonymous with Satanist. It's not like they haven't been told half a million times by a 1,000 sources that they're wrong. What could and atheist actually know about what they do or don't believe in anyway. The idea that someone they would call a godless heathen could actually want the best for people is completely out of their reach.
Those chairs are causing some serious comfort problems for the three of em
Poor Jordan. Tough being a Canadian
Sam is such a great voice of reason.
I think Douglas Murray has a point. As much as I think that religions are intrinsically more damaging than beneficial, I also believe they offer some sort of immunity against external philosophical assaults, a bad reason to defend your home is still making you defend your home, remove it and you're left vulnerable to people who have bad reasons to break into your home, that's the problem caused by the elimination of a religion and the void left afterwards.
Religions have always been a very powerful tool of control and they still are to this day but they are that 'bad reason' that gives people ground to value themselves and their community and if you erase it you're simply exposing your belly to the beasts who have their own religions, and they'll eat you alive, especially in our materialistic societies where consumerism is the new dogma.
I think the solution to that problem is secularisation with preferential treatment regarding the local religious traditions, religions should be kept out of power/politics/schools, etc but you can't go willy nilly pretending all religions are equal, they're not, the ones that are part of your cultural fabric should be protected, whether they're true or not is irrelevant, what matters is that they are an integral part of the national lore and historical identity, same as any other tradition, language, folklore, etc.
After the revalations from Ayaan Hirsi Ali I have come to the conclusion these people just talk meaningless bollocks.
I'm not a Peterson fan by any means but what I don't understand is why people who are in the Peterson camp are also in the Tate camp
The group-pressure for conservatives today to not fall for the christo-fascist narrative is huge. Jordan Peterson lost his mind over it and now Douglas Murray and also Ayaan Hirsi Ali are also falling for it.
1:38 - 1:44 I never hear anyone about this phrase but it's a sign that Peterson does not see value in Western society and that may probably be the reason why he refers to nihilism so often. Perhaps Peterson just as been depressie for too long and that's why he's the way we know him.
To be fair I don't care what religion you are, it's what you do as a president that matters.
We live among people who choose to fool themselves. Keep
the fables because folks might behave badly if they don’t believe the old bullshit? Ridiculous.
Jordan Peterson writes a confusing pocket book everytime he opens his mouth.
Ask him if he's hungry and he'll go on a rant about the concept of hunger 😅
I think the top progressive content creators should have a gathering, live or zoom, to organize around a set of principles. Start by finding out what you agree upon and work outward towards the points of disagreement and figure out how to deal with the radical right.
I can appreciate Sam’s claim that “love” guided by reason is a noble endeavor; it’s an extension of Hume’s admonition even as Jordie points out it is also Biblically friendly.
Sam appears to struggle with understanding that the religious instinct remains Mother Nature’s preference as global religious affiliation studies evidence.
Mere reason alone will never be sufficient for its demise or evolutionary extinction.
the solution is good science and education!!! beginning with the knowledge that we are animals like all the others!
Sam for president! Unfortunately he's not narcissistic enough!!
I don’t mind an atheist president as long as it is not an atheist woke president certainly not an atheist who is in Far-Right movement.
Why do they invite Peterson to speak at all. He adds nothing. He just pulls off topic. Can we please just put actual intelligent people on this stage?
Jordan: i like mine fairytale...its so wonderful. People should believe it.
Sam: But its a fairytale. Im more interested in truth
Jordan: but this fairytale is so damn good...why dont u try it ?
People long ago learned to love one another after a catastrophe pr during cooexistence troubles as it proved to be better for survival of our species than war. Peace is usually brought about by the the tiring of conflict after all.
Sam has only offered us is a President who doesn't believe in a God as portrayed in the Bible. Just one man.
the fact that this debate is even occurring in 2024 is proof that the average simpleton is alarmingly stupid. peterson and murray come off as insufferable idiots, and sam needs to move on from arguing about religion, which at this point is tantamount to arguing about the existence of leprechauns.
JP is hilarious. His words often run too far ahead of his thinking. Sam Harris tries time and again to bring him back to a more carefully thought out position. But I still like how JP brings a lot of passion along with his thinking (which is not in the league of Harris in my opinion).