Talking about strong fields ... what about the '86 Arc ... ... Triptych (super-versatile,wonder filly), Sharastani(Epsom Derby winner), Bering (smart, unbeaten French derby winner) ... all of them champions in their own right, but all outsped, outshone and outdone by the enigmatic DANCING BRAVE
@Stephen Small We'll never know but I'd've backed Dancing Brave to do so. The Gran Señor was a top class colt though, had the beating of Chief Singer who went on to frank the form by dominating group one races over a mile for fun. How Eddery was able to lose the Espom Derby on the Señor is one of life's mysteries. Ironic how Starkey lost the same race just a few years later on Dancing Brave.
One of the best 2,000 guineas ever, the fourth Rainbow Quest won the Arc later in the year and the second Chief Singer went on and beat the top sprinters in the July cup, pity Pat Eddery didn't kick on sooner in the Derby and not given Secreto a chance to outbattle El Gran Senor in that last 100 yards -suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing
Rainbow Quest beaten 10 lenghts. COULD RQ get beaten 10 lenghts by any horse over any distance to be honest. Frankel included. Cheif Singer would be a legend in any other year.
For pure strength in depth probably the greatest guineas. Brigadier Gerard s guineas beating Mill Reef and My Swallow probably the best quality. Frankel' s performance being the most jaw dropping brilliance wise.
earp61able Can't argue with your selections; An unfashionable alternative list could be; Zafonic for brilliance, Rock of Gibraltars guineas for quality and the very underrated Pennekamps guineas for depth... and then there was Kings Best and his destruction of Giants Causeway and Nureyev/Known Fact for controversy.
Frankel would have been beaten in the guineas by quite a few. He didn't really settle and was really tired and slowing down dramatically in last 2f. Same thing happened Frankel at ascot in st James palace. So imo the guineas and ascot was Frankels worst runs. Couldn't beat horses like El Gran senor doing that as he had unbelievable speed and stamina to catch him easily. Frankel was brilliant later as a 3yold and 4 but not in guineas.
El Gran Senor is possibly a great comparison for Frankel. If kept to 8-10f at 3 he may well have been unbeaten and just as impressive as Frankel. But, they went for the Derby and what happened to him may also have happened to Frankel. He won a great Guineas and came from a super crop. Sadlers Wells, Rainbow Quest, Chief Singer. I think his Guineas win was more impressive than Frankels and he beat a much better horse in Chief Singer than any horse Frankel beat in his whole career. 12f at Epsom was just too much for him but people shouldn't underestimate Secreto. Ran 3rd to Sadlers Wells in the Irish Guineas wasn't bad form. He may have been a better horse than people give him credit for. EGS I'm a big fan.
There is no way that Chief Singer can be described as: "....a much better horse than any horse Frankel beat in his whole career". Especially when you consider that Frankel beat the likes of Canford Cliffs and Excelebration and horses like Goldikova and Moonlight Cloud finished behind those rivals, despite not facing Frankel.
@@mikedavies9953I loved DB, and he might beat EGS at 10f but at the mile El Gran Senior could turn around and race backwards and win on the bridal. Frankel won an awful 2000 G , it's a joke because Rainbow quest would have given him a race. Frankel was great at 4 Rainbow Quest is the key here. He dropped 10 lengths 1 furlong. No way is DB that quick. This is Magic. Cheif Singer would have been a legend if EGS wasn't there,
Pat Eddery still missed,El Gran Senor a monster of a horse.
I would totally agree best 2000 Guinness of all time El gran senour pure class
One of the best guineas winner ever EGS up there with Frankel, warning brigadier, dancing brave etc
Frankels guineas was one of the worst based on times and Quality.
Best ever el gran senor,wow the whole field was pure class
THE best 2000 guineas!
+torontoderek without any doubt
Absolutamente infravalorado
El Gran Senor es uno de los mejores milleros de la historia
one of the best
Talking about strong fields ... what about the '86 Arc ... ... Triptych (super-versatile,wonder filly), Sharastani(Epsom Derby winner), Bering (smart, unbeaten French derby winner) ... all of them champions in their own right, but all outsped, outshone and outdone by the enigmatic DANCING BRAVE
@Stephen Small We'll never know but I'd've backed Dancing Brave to do so. The Gran Señor was a top class colt though, had the beating of Chief Singer who went on to frank the form by dominating group one races over a mile for fun. How Eddery was able to lose the Espom Derby on the Señor is one of life's mysteries. Ironic how Starkey lost the same race just a few years later on Dancing Brave.
One of the best 2,000 guineas ever, the fourth Rainbow Quest won the Arc later in the year and the second Chief Singer went on and beat the top sprinters in the July cup, pity Pat Eddery didn't kick on sooner in the Derby and not given Secreto a chance to outbattle El Gran Senor in that last 100 yards -suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing
It made no difference if El Gran Senor kicked earlier, he still had plenty of time to go and win the Derby but just got out battled.
Rainbow Quest beaten 10 lenghts. COULD RQ get beaten 10 lenghts by any horse over any distance to be honest. Frankel included.
Cheif Singer would be a legend in any other year.
Love how they are all together 1 furlong out and bang the front two kick over 6l clear of the rest inside the final furlong.
For pure strength in depth probably the greatest guineas. Brigadier Gerard s guineas beating Mill Reef and My Swallow probably the best quality. Frankel' s performance being the most jaw dropping brilliance wise.
earp61able Can't argue with your selections; An unfashionable alternative list could be; Zafonic for brilliance, Rock of Gibraltars guineas for quality and the very underrated Pennekamps guineas for depth... and then there was Kings Best and his destruction of Giants Causeway and Nureyev/Known Fact for controversy.
The problem is that Mill reef was not a miler
Chief Singer beats Mill Reef at a mile easily. At 10 furlong and more Mill Reef is a legend.
Frankel would have been beaten in the guineas by quite a few. He didn't really settle and was really tired and slowing down dramatically in last 2f. Same thing happened Frankel at ascot in st James palace. So imo the guineas and ascot was Frankels worst runs. Couldn't beat horses like El Gran senor doing that as he had unbelievable speed and stamina to catch him easily. Frankel was brilliant later as a 3yold and 4 but not in guineas.
one of them for sure
El Gran Senor is possibly a great comparison for Frankel.
If kept to 8-10f at 3 he may well have been unbeaten and just as impressive as Frankel.
But, they went for the Derby and what happened to him may also have happened to Frankel.
He won a great Guineas and came from a super crop.
Sadlers Wells, Rainbow Quest, Chief Singer.
I think his Guineas win was more impressive than Frankels and he beat a much better horse in Chief Singer than any horse Frankel beat in his whole career.
12f at Epsom was just too much for him but people shouldn't underestimate Secreto. Ran 3rd to Sadlers Wells in the Irish Guineas wasn't bad form.
He may have been a better horse than people give him credit for.
EGS I'm a big fan.
There is no way that Chief Singer can be described as:
"....a much better horse than any horse Frankel beat in his whole career".
Especially when you consider that Frankel beat the likes of Canford Cliffs and Excelebration and horses like Goldikova and Moonlight Cloud finished behind those rivals, despite not facing Frankel.
EGS best miler ever.
El gran senor might have been the only horse to ever challenge Brigadier Gerard in the guineas.Frankel would have been third.
Which horse would you bet your life on?
8f - El Gran Senor
10f - Frankel
12f - Dancing Brave
Dancing Brave would be to fast for El gran senor he had a turn of foot no horse could have ever lived with form 1.2 to 1.4
@@mikedavies9953I loved DB, and he might beat EGS at 10f but at the mile El Gran Senior could turn around and race backwards and win on the bridal.
Frankel won an awful 2000 G , it's a joke because Rainbow quest would have given him a race.
Frankel was great at 4
Rainbow Quest is the key here. He dropped 10 lengths 1 furlong. No way is DB that quick. This is Magic.
Cheif Singer would have been a legend if EGS wasn't there,
Maybe , but as you know the truly great horses are judged at 12furlongs and at that distance given a decent ride he was the greatest
@@stephensmall8601 i think the clue is in your statement , he never raced at 1m 4 so how can you compare him to DB?