My dad was involved in vintage racing and knew a lot of these guys, 15 years later I spontaneously remember he said there was a big crash at Road America and look this up to see it for the first time
3+ people responsible... but not who you might normally think: 1. Pole sitter accelerated before the green then checked up (which cause P2 to also check up as not to pass the polesitter pre-green). The polesiiters premature acceleration caused big gaps and people were accelerating to close the gaps before the green. Then when Polesitter checked up, it caused the pile up 2. The green flag was waived late which exacerbated the situation. 3. Yellow camero was doing stupid things (out of line before green , too aggressive before green) so he was not equipped to respond to the above and he caused the actual contact and accident. IF any of the above (pole or flagman) didnt screw up first, the camero wouldnt have been an issue. Camero is at fault but he is third in line behind the pole and flag man. Pole is supposed to keep constant speed until green-- no varying speeds. Polesitters do this often even in pro series, it gives them an advantage but it leads to contact for those behind and is against the rules.
Absolutely spot on. And its a GODDAMN shame, these aren't just worth millions of dollars, these things are close to priceless, out of production, let alone OLD. That pole sitter and that whole situation with the hill and the flag waiver really fucked everyone and their cars. The camaro guy is unfortunately less than 25% of the problem.
From what I read, the starter had the green flag up but noticed a couple of cars out of position, so he pulled down the green flag down and held up 1 finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is when P1 and P2 checked up, and the Camaro, which was out of position, checked up too late and cut to his right, clipping and spinning the car that started the pile up.
It was the starter… I was there for this. Starter pulled the green flag up, front half took off, starter put the green flag back down and waved o e more pace lap. Back half couldn’t see the front half slow down in time and drove into them.
I was a non-racing member of VSCDA at the time, and was in the autograph tent talking to Bob McKee when the incident took place. He said, “That can’t be good!” We diden’t know how right he was! I never raced past the Regional level in SCCA, but I can tell you that RA was, to me, one of the most technical starts of the tracks I drove at! IF the flag and pole aren’t on their game and playing it tight - well, testosterone will take control, sensibility will be pushed aside and, eventually something bad will come of it. Could have been so much worse!
I know Bob McKee , great guy I knew him from back in the very early 60's when I was just a little kid , my father worked at Doanne Chevrolet and McKee built him a sports prototype that Doanne ended up calling the Chevette , I even know the real story why 2 of the Corvette Gran Sports were sent back to GM and made into roadsters , Doanne's speed shop was in the same building as his body shop , a fire started in the middle of the night in the speed shop where both Gran Sports were , I remember as amid pulling strands of burnt fiberglass off the tubular chassis , so they made them into roadsters . I actually rode in Doannes Chevette when I was about 3 or 4 years old on Meadowdale Raceway , it was during the week and Doanne had access to the track whenever he wanted , Rubric and Doanne and McKee all worked together on various projects for racing and GM , Doanne was known at the time as the Corvette king , my father did all of his fiberglass work , those memories are the exact reason I got into the auto body restoration business (now thankfully retired) , its funny but my father never was a car nut , I have been my entire life !
I was a member of Indiana Northwest Region where Ralph Salyer was a member. Knew him, not well, but enjoyed his racing stories. In 1968, I was an extra in the movie “Winning” where tha automotive star was his Gp.7 car. That, and a newbie, think his name was Newman!
I'd say Ray Mulacek, Yellow Camero, failed to maintain position before the green. Very poor behavior, ESPECIALLY for a vintage race. Should never be allowed in a vintage event, if I saw it right.
Mulacek has a reputation of poor driving under the o ast and ut finally caught up to him Yes my brother and I both raced against him and he was one level above dirty Tantrum was also partially responsible
I remember reading a review of this race and crash: (Wording approximate) "Nobody was seriously injured in the crash, or the reported fistfights afterward."
Amazing video. Just shows you what can go wrong if people get out of position and don't maintain speed coming to the green flag. Geeeeze the cost of getting all this repaired...can't imagine. Thanks for posting this!!
Except for the guy who got stunned, I'll bet everybody the first thought of those involved in that pile up was "I'm okay!" Quickly followed by "Oh s**t! How much is this gonna cost me!"
Scott Cline in the 03 Jag was pinned against the wall. I was first to get him out of the car, I think Harold Shiffmeir was really hurt and his AC was all but destroyed!
Ah man watching from the uk thats a real shame seeing all those lovely classics getting totalled because of some arsehole who shouldn't hold a racing license. That camaro driver needs to be banger racing.
What happened to maintain pace car speed till the flag ????????????? P1and P2 accelerated an addition gear then checked up just before the flag. Yellow Camaro too aggressive, too close to Jag and out of position. Whole lota mistakes, bad deal.
@@sludge4125I read that the first few rows of the grid wasn't positioned right and the flag man had the green flag up and then pulled it down and held up his finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is why P1 and P2 checked up.
This is what footage looked like in 2005? Amazing how far we’ve come in 15ish years. Also amazing there was no fire, with all those cars plowing int the back of one another.
j toy yea crazy I thought that b.s. only happened in SIM racing. (1st turn I win f all of you and your classic race cars.) I hope like iracing they banned him. Then all owners and drivers rearange his face.
I say it was a racing incident, the yellow Camaro was trying to avoid hitting the green car in front of him because everyone in front of him braked all a sudden then he braked hard and the car snapped to the right, you can see him try to get the car back in the onboard clip of his car
Why did it take so long for anyone to get to the guy in the Cobra? I know that it was a big crash, but they should of had enough medics for at least 15 drivers or more. I am a classic car lover and I hope everyone was ok, and I hope that everyone in the crash was able to fix those beautiful classic race cars.
Looks like the yellow Camaro started the whole thing- trying to pass the Jag and being way out of position long before they got to the start-finish line.
too much greed guys, take time for the start and the first lap !! Formation laps many driver feel too much bad !! come on guys drive for win and drive for passion !! so thank for the vidéo is amazing !!
I was standing there at the time it happened - unreal. My understanding is one of the car's front suspension or linkage broke and lost control at the start of the race. I think it was a Jaguar.
@@sludge4125 It was Ray Mulacek in the Yellow camaro driving between the two rows of cars before the flag was even thrown for reasons that will never be known.
Am glad the Shelby Mustangs & GT’s were spared (At the back/ middle of the pack)!! I’m guessing those AC Shelby Cobras were “Fast Five replicars?” Still a shame all those vintage cars were even damaged in the first place!!! 😢
If that's the way they start races at Road America it's a disgrace. Drivers are building speed as they should then look at the flagman. He didn't throw green until the accident had already started! The flag should be thrown as the cars come over the ridge. If they're actually thinking about whether to throw green after they peak the ridge, this is what should be expected. There needs to be communication between the pace and the flag. Despite the flag mistake, neither car in the front row should slow at those speeds. They should maintain speed even if they don't see green. As soon as they checked up, there was going to be a wreck. Yellow camaro was WAY too aggressive. You don't go up the middle trying to pick up 5 positions going into Road Atlanta turn 1 at the start of a race in group 6. If he was in a smaller car, he wouldn't have had the guts to try to pull that off. Big car, lead foot. The guy shouldn't be racing. They are DAMNED lucky there was no fire. There was probably a lot of fuel in those cars. I sure hope everyone was OK. Road Atlanta cost a lot of guys their dreams that day.
AGREED! The cause of the wreck is a separate issue for others to determine, but the "flagger" had a huge role in this event and could have had a huge role in preventing it too. Let's remember that this isn't NASCAR, Indy Car, Formula One, with hundreds of millions of dollars at steak with sponsors, tracks, vendors, suppliers, etc. This is "Vintage" series racing, These are mostly people that have full-time jobs and race for the love of racing the old cars, and operate (with some exceptions) out of their pickup and a trailer, scrounging as much money as they can to do something they love and fans love to watch. With that in mind, you see the Pace Car pull off, clearly the cars are up to speed and itching to hit the trigger. What the hell is the point of playing games with the flag until the very last second, knowing that every driver is anticipating a green flag, because there's no reason not to anticipate it! I'm sure people will say "Yea, but the Camaro was clearly out of position, and THAT's why he was hesitating to drop the green flag". Again, if this were the Indy Car Series or the NASCAR Series, where it means so much more, then I'd agree, but not for vintage racing, none of these guys are professional racers who support their families on this. The flag should have been dropped way before he did it, and if he had done so, and he didn't like the line-up he could have shown them the "no-Go" flag in plenty of time. He was either not using his head, or being ridiculously over demanding for what the race was, amateurs (some very good ones) that have a lot of money tied up in these cars (life saving for some of them). And to the people that say "what about the Camaro being out of position dude?". Drop the green flag, and call the Camaro into the pits for a "stop n go" penalty. If he does it again, black flag him for the weekend. If he does it again, ban him from the track for a year. If he does it again, go after his license. The fact of the matter is, if the flagger dropped the flag (either yellow or green) when he should have, instead of at the last second, this would never have happened. With the Camaro in or out of position, this would never have happened! That's just my view anyway.
@@dennisoshaughnessy6936Apparently, the flag man had the green ready to wave, but saw that a couple of cars were out of position, pulled the flag down and held up 1 finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is when P1 and P2 checked up. Yellow Camaro apparently didn't see that, hit the brakes and cut to his right, clipping another car and spinning him, which started the chain reaction pile up.
It wasn’t the yellow Camaro it was the the two leading cars that for some reason decided to slowdown when everyone else’s is accelerating away the two hillbillies decide there not racing so the cars behind slam the brakes on unfortunately the Camaro slides to the right under heavy breaking
Yellow Camaro was too aggressive.....car in front of him checked up.,,chain reaction through the rest of the grid..this is Vintage racing..unfortunately some of these "Tools" don't "get it" !?
My dad was involved in vintage racing and knew a lot of these guys, 15 years later I spontaneously remember he said there was a big crash at Road America and look this up to see it for the first time
3+ people responsible... but not who you might normally think: 1. Pole sitter accelerated before the green then checked up (which cause P2 to also check up as not to pass the polesitter pre-green). The polesiiters premature acceleration caused big gaps and people were accelerating to close the gaps before the green. Then when Polesitter checked up, it caused the pile up 2. The green flag was waived late which exacerbated the situation. 3. Yellow camero was doing stupid things (out of line before green , too aggressive before green) so he was not equipped to respond to the above and he caused the actual contact and accident. IF any of the above (pole or flagman) didnt screw up first, the camero wouldnt have been an issue. Camero is at fault but he is third in line behind the pole and flag man. Pole is supposed to keep constant speed until green-- no varying speeds. Polesitters do this often even in pro series, it gives them an advantage but it leads to contact for those behind and is against the rules.
I completely agree..
Absolutely spot on. And its a GODDAMN shame, these aren't just worth millions of dollars, these things are close to priceless, out of production, let alone OLD. That pole sitter and that whole situation with the hill and the flag waiver really fucked everyone and their cars. The camaro guy is unfortunately less than 25% of the problem.
That Camaro just turned right and closed the door on the Vette. Absolute stupidity.
Yellow camaro caused it all.
From what I read, the starter had the green flag up but noticed a couple of cars out of position, so he pulled down the green flag down and held up 1 finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is when P1 and P2 checked up, and the Camaro, which was out of position, checked up too late and cut to his right, clipping and spinning the car that started the pile up.
Man! That cobra. So sad. "I am all done Ray. I ain't going to race no more."
Cobras are extremely difficult to drive at speed. They do not react well to sudden inputs.
It was the starter… I was there for this. Starter pulled the green flag up, front half took off, starter put the green flag back down and waved o e more pace lap. Back half couldn’t see the front half slow down in time and drove into them.
Never thought anyone caught this on camera! Wow! Great footage
I agree!
I was a non-racing member of VSCDA at the time, and was in the autograph tent talking to Bob McKee when the incident took place. He said, “That can’t be good!” We diden’t know how right he was!
I never raced past the Regional level in SCCA, but I can tell you that RA was, to me, one of the most technical starts of the tracks I drove at! IF the flag and pole aren’t on their game and playing it tight - well, testosterone will take control, sensibility will be pushed aside and, eventually something bad will come of it. Could have been so much worse!
I know Bob McKee , great guy I knew him from back in the very early 60's when I was just a little kid , my father worked at Doanne Chevrolet and McKee built him a sports prototype that Doanne ended up calling the Chevette , I even know the real story why 2 of the Corvette Gran Sports were sent back to GM and made into roadsters , Doanne's speed shop was in the same building as his body shop , a fire started in the middle of the night in the speed shop where both Gran Sports were , I remember as amid pulling strands of burnt fiberglass off the tubular chassis , so they made them into roadsters . I actually rode in Doannes Chevette when I was about 3 or 4 years old on Meadowdale Raceway , it was during the week and Doanne had access to the track whenever he wanted , Rubric and Doanne and McKee all worked together on various projects for racing and GM , Doanne was known at the time as the Corvette king , my father did all of his fiberglass work , those memories are the exact reason I got into the auto body restoration business (now thankfully retired) , its funny but my father never was a car nut , I have been my entire life !
I was a member of Indiana Northwest Region where Ralph Salyer was a member. Knew him, not well, but enjoyed his racing stories. In 1968, I was an extra in the movie “Winning” where tha automotive star was his Gp.7 car. That, and a newbie, think his name was Newman!
sadder than an ASPCA commercial.
I was there that day, but was on another part of the track. When I got there, it was just a heap of metal. Sad day at RA.
Wow...incredible footage, gripping stuff. Amazing piece of vintage racing history. Just brutal watching those cars and drivers getting trashed.
Reminds me of Road Atlanta in the 70's during run offs
I'd say Ray Mulacek, Yellow Camero, failed to maintain position before the green. Very poor behavior, ESPECIALLY for a vintage race. Should never be allowed in a vintage event, if I saw it right.
i See him every year in that same yellow camaro at the vintage race, fun guy to watch but probably not the best sport out there
That Camaro for sure caused it, he clipped the guy and spun him around causing all of that, so I hope he was held accountable.
Mulacek has a reputation of poor driving under the o ast and ut finally caught up to him
Yes my brother and I both raced against him and he was one level above dirty
Tantrum was also partially responsible
Mulacek had a red 427 69 vette but he was uncompetitive in that class
I remember reading a review of this race and crash: (Wording approximate) "Nobody was seriously injured in the crash, or the reported fistfights afterward."
Amazing video. Just shows you what can go wrong if people get out of position and don't maintain speed coming to the green flag. Geeeeze the cost of getting all this repaired...can't imagine. Thanks for posting this!!
Except for the guy who got stunned, I'll bet everybody the first thought of those involved in that pile up was "I'm okay!" Quickly followed by "Oh s**t! How much is this gonna cost me!"
Scott Cline in the 03 Jag was pinned against the wall. I was first to get him out of the car, I think Harold Shiffmeir was really hurt and his AC was all but destroyed!
Ah man watching from the uk thats a real shame seeing all those lovely classics getting totalled because of some arsehole who shouldn't hold a racing license. That camaro driver needs to be banger racing.
He may as well be, Still races the same yellow camaro to this day. Basically slides sideways through every corner and is extremely aggressive
What happened to maintain pace car speed till the flag ????????????? P1and P2 accelerated an addition gear then checked up just before the flag. Yellow Camaro too aggressive, too close to Jag and out of position. Whole lota mistakes, bad deal.
Your the only one I agree with..
Because people want to cheat. P1 tried to get an advantage by cheating.
And yellow camaro guy is just immature.
@@sludge4125I read that the first few rows of the grid wasn't positioned right and the flag man had the green flag up and then pulled it down and held up his finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is why P1 and P2 checked up.
This is what footage looked like in 2005? Amazing how far we’ve come in 15ish years. Also amazing there was no fire, with all those cars plowing int the back of one another.
There were better cameras in 2005, this was probably taken with something from the 90’s.
why would poll increase speed only to draw it back before flag? racers know why.
also the spaz in the yellow camaro should be banned.
who caused the problem . it was the yellow camaro .that should not even happen
j toy yea crazy I thought that b.s. only happened in SIM racing. (1st turn I win f all of you and your classic race cars.) I hope like iracing they banned him. Then all owners and drivers rearange his face.
I say it was a racing incident, the yellow Camaro was trying to avoid hitting the green car in front of him because everyone in front of him braked all a sudden then he braked hard and the car snapped to the right, you can see him try to get the car back in the onboard clip of his car
That's an unbelievable accumulation of video. So sad....
Why did it take so long for anyone to get to the guy in the Cobra? I know that it was a big crash, but they should of had enough medics for at least 15 drivers or more. I am a classic car lover and I hope everyone was ok, and I hope that everyone in the crash was able to fix those beautiful classic race cars.
Looks like the yellow Camaro started the whole thing- trying to pass the Jag and being way out of position long before they got to the start-finish line.
What happened with the guy in the Camaro clip with all the emergency crew and talking inside the car?
He was ok, he had his bell rung but ok.
You'd think with cars like these they wouldn't be so aggressive
There’s one in every crowd.
All those poor classics. Ouch.
too much greed guys, take time for the start and the first lap !! Formation laps many driver feel too much bad !! come on guys drive for win and drive for passion !! so thank for the vidéo is amazing !!
The Yellow Camaro doesn't hold his line before green flag and causes the havoc.
I was standing there at the time it happened - unreal. My understanding is one of the car's front suspension or linkage broke and lost control at the start of the race. I think it was a Jaguar.
Documentation please...
@@sludge4125 It was Ray Mulacek in the Yellow camaro driving between the two rows of cars before the flag was even thrown for reasons that will never be known.
@@slashracingproductions5593 That’s what I thought, also. Thanks.
Am glad the Shelby Mustangs & GT’s were spared (At the back/ middle of the pack)!! I’m guessing those AC Shelby Cobras were “Fast Five replicars?” Still a shame all those vintage cars were even damaged in the first place!!! 😢
Those were all real. No replicas.
Wow, what a bummer!!
One thing is for sure, Todd on P16 doesn't know how to make a rolling start. He left 10 car lengths distance...
Agree not sure why it’s so difficult for these guys to perform a simple start of a race
If that's the way they start races at Road America it's a disgrace. Drivers are building speed as they should then look at the flagman. He didn't throw green until the accident had already started! The flag should be thrown as the cars come over the ridge. If they're actually thinking about whether to throw green after they peak the ridge, this is what should be expected. There needs to be communication between the pace and the flag.
Despite the flag mistake, neither car in the front row should slow at those speeds. They should maintain speed even if they don't see green. As soon as they checked up, there was going to be a wreck.
Yellow camaro was WAY too aggressive. You don't go up the middle trying to pick up 5 positions going into Road Atlanta turn 1 at the start of a race in group 6. If he was in a smaller car, he wouldn't have had the guts to try to pull that off. Big car, lead foot. The guy shouldn't be racing.
They are DAMNED lucky there was no fire. There was probably a lot of fuel in those cars. I sure hope everyone was OK. Road Atlanta cost a lot of guys their dreams that day.
AGREED! The cause of the wreck is a separate issue for others to determine, but the "flagger" had a huge role in this event and could have had a huge role in preventing it too. Let's remember that this isn't NASCAR, Indy Car, Formula One, with hundreds of millions of dollars at steak with sponsors, tracks, vendors, suppliers, etc. This is "Vintage" series racing, These are mostly people that have full-time jobs and race for the love of racing the old cars, and operate (with some exceptions) out of their pickup and a trailer, scrounging as much money as they can to do something they love and fans love to watch.
With that in mind, you see the Pace Car pull off, clearly the cars are up to speed and itching to hit the trigger. What the hell is the point of playing games with the flag until the very last second, knowing that every driver is anticipating a green flag, because there's no reason not to anticipate it! I'm sure people will say "Yea, but the Camaro was clearly out of position, and THAT's why he was hesitating to drop the green flag". Again, if this were the Indy Car Series or the NASCAR Series, where it means so much more, then I'd agree, but not for vintage racing, none of these guys are professional racers who support their families on this. The flag should have been dropped way before he did it, and if he had done so, and he didn't like the line-up he could have shown them the "no-Go" flag in plenty of time. He was either not using his head, or being ridiculously over demanding for what the race was, amateurs (some very good ones) that have a lot of money tied up in these cars (life saving for some of them). And to the people that say "what about the Camaro being out of position dude?". Drop the green flag, and call the Camaro into the pits for a "stop n go" penalty. If he does it again, black flag him for the weekend. If he does it again, ban him from the track for a year. If he does it again, go after his license. The fact of the matter is, if the flagger dropped the flag (either yellow or green) when he should have, instead of at the last second, this would never have happened. With the Camaro in or out of position, this would never have happened! That's just my view anyway.
this was at Road America.
@@dennisoshaughnessy6936Apparently, the flag man had the green ready to wave, but saw that a couple of cars were out of position, pulled the flag down and held up 1 finger to indicate 1 more pace lap. That is when P1 and P2 checked up. Yellow Camaro apparently didn't see that, hit the brakes and cut to his right, clipping another car and spinning him, which started the chain reaction pile up.
Incredible reaction time by the guys who saw that crash happen and still plowed into it without lifting 😂
Well, they are coming up the rise before the start/ finish line at fill throttle and can't see what is going on until it is too late.
Was Todd #21 inexperienced, or incompetent?
a lot of lo performance drivers in hi performance cars
Everyone is blaming the yellow Camaro but the pile up started well ahead of him
Man that's scary with the driver in the Camaro.
Some serious arca brakes in there
#21 car smashed everything at the end.
ARCA BRAKES!!!
Correct
Looks like the driver of the yellow Camaro needs to learn how to drive.
What a loss.
Smashie smashie !!!
It wasn’t the yellow Camaro it was the the two leading cars that for some reason decided to slowdown when everyone else’s is accelerating away the two hillbillies decide there not racing so the cars behind slam the brakes on unfortunately the Camaro slides to the right under heavy breaking
Yellow Camaro was too aggressive.....car in front of him checked up.,,chain reaction through the rest of the grid..this is Vintage racing..unfortunately some of these "Tools" don't "get it" !?
Correto
Everyone here pointing fingers, Captain Hindsights as far as the comments can see. Piss off.
In that moment, it was the only outcome.
Road america needs revisions
So forza is realistic!
I've seen cleaner Forza starts than that
Yikes
Great video. I hope they hung the guy in the yellow Camaro until he was Dead.
JB91710 hang his wallet
pace car is in the wrong
I didn't even see a pace car?
Actually, the flag person goofed up a little.
The guy Ray Bradley in the black Camaro, white stripes...Dieded 💀
Nah he's fine, no one died
No one died, no one was seriously hurt.