Worth pointing out that if you know the level, you don't need to actually use the repelling things at all. You do run the risk of dropping into a hazard, but if you know what you're doing then you can avoid the tedium by simply ignoring them and simply falling down. Similarly, while you do need to push those blocks to raise the doors, I find it faster to push them halfway-through and then rushing to the door. In some ways, you could think those sections as less of a puzzle and more so the game giving you a chance to challenge how fast you think you are.
>in the 90's the complaints was that Sonic games where too easy >some years ago the complaints was that the games where too punishing because you got hit by a enemie that you had like 3 seconds to see and avoid but was dumb Enough tô jump over or i Don't know... Jusp press down >Now is too punishing because If you got hit or was too impatient for a platform you need to Go to a lower and slower route that is more dangerous Geez Classic Sonic Haters can't be pleassed Just as simple P.S i love Sandopolis i Go as Far as avoiding turn the lighs on Just to have that extra spice with the ghosts that i became quite good at avoid
Glad to know somebody actually created a video about this. I've really felt as of recently that Sandopolis Zone Act 2 is SUPER UNDERRATED. People complain the level is slow, cramped and long? Good. The developers clearly did a good job recreating the experience of being inside a Pyramid Tomb now, haven't they?
Never occurred to me 'till now that the Egg Pyramid in Sonic Adventure 2 is probably supposed to be an homage to Sandopolis. Nice! Outta curiosity, what are your thoughts on Act 1? It's not the same puzzle box as Act 2, but I think it helps as a natural induction into that mentality, since you start playing with some of the same platforming elements out there. Plus rappelling down walls and using that momentum to get across gaps is just a fun thing to do in a platformer.
Act 1 is good, but it doesn't quite play on the same ideas as Act 2, which is more "hey what if we made a fusion of Marble and Labyrinth, but made them complimentary to Sonic rather than antithetical"? It's more just a pretty decently fun Sonic zone with an admittedly very boring and bad boss that sets an unfortunate tone for Act 2. It's good, though the rappelling sections are far more spectacle than scouting-focused and thus can feel more like pacebreakers in Act 1.
Sandopolis Zone Is one of my favorite zones and I know that isn't a popular opinion but my gosh the art that looks hot and sandy with the glyphs and smooth surfaces. The music is killer, love that bass line pick up in act 2 and how scared that made me when I was 7 or 8 years old on act two was amazing. The ghosts and the sand coming up always freaked me out and loved it!
I used to hate this level because of how slow some of the block stuff was yet how fast certain sections of the level wanted you to go. Like, if you go too slow in the rising sand section, you run out of time to push one block to keep going and you just get crushed. With years of Sonic 3 experience on my back, though, a lot of that pain I once felt in this level is eased. That section I just described also has an extra life that, if you're fast enough, you can snag an keep going. It's definitely a unique level that, for the most part, presents fair challenges to the player. Certainly better than some of the crap Flying Battery or Lava Reef throw at you.
I agree that I really enjoy the more puzzle-solving elements in the original trilogy, but they’re ruined by the time limit. It forces you to feel the need to use your speed and ruins the explorative element
As a level design? Yes, Sandopolis was a remarkably fresh and novel Sonic zone to explore and master. As a kid playing it? Literal nightmare. Its Act 2 spikes my anxiety the way only Scrap Brain ever did before.
I’m more or less at what Rowe Review said, not really sold on it. Especially when Pyramid cave did the switches to opening doors better. Whereas here, it just becomes tedious to push that dang switch every single time. You did end it smoothly, well said.
Sa2 was a perfect synergy for Sonic’s gameplay. Fast, but it doesn’t leave you without warning of what’s up next: they make full use of 3D to give you a safe period of time to plan out your next moves without having to actually slow down very much. It also works in a “fortune favors the bold” manner, where there are certain higher risk routes that may only save a bit of time, but will make you feel AWESOME for clearing, and you won’t feel particularly weak for taking the less strenuous path. You can feel content just saying “I’ll check that out next time”, and speeding along on your merry way
Somehow I knew CTR would be mentioned here. Decent argument though for classic Sonic having a good level. I think the designers of the level kind of fluked into the praise rather than understood why it was good, considering the rest of the game. I was still never a big fan of this level at all, but I respect the arguments put forth.
Would you believe there are earlier drafts of this script that don't mention CTR at all because I was worried I was overplaying it, but Gooms told me I should have an example and cited CTR specifically as "you know that game and it works perfectly"?
Such an overlooked level that people never appreciate. This act only gets hate because people don't like the infinite slide and the ghosts, which if you ask me, are not threatening or challenging in the slightest bit. The ghosts can just be jumped into and it takes an extremely long time for them to start attacking, and the infinite slide loops every ten seconds with only about 5 main slides, making it easy to deduce which slides you haven't gone down.
I never just tried to speed thru so I guess I never had all the issues people complain about. I played sonic 2 a billion times to eventually get the super sonic ending, but it didn't bother me to die over and over because getting better at it made it fun. For S3&K once I figured out the ring trick in blue stages. Easy peezy to get lives and continues. Never felt punished in that one too. I feel punished in Mario games because I'm not used to them like I am to Sonic games. Background and experience makes a big impact on things. As for Sandopolis as a kid I hated that level. As an adult, it has become one of my favorites. It is quite unique compared to previous levels in the series. The timers did add some tension and help increase that skill level.
I think my biggest problem with this level is how impossible it is for a new player to tell if they're making progress, or even the layout of the stage itself. I've beaten the game at least five times, and all I can tell you is that there's maybe three slide sections? Some bits you have to go left, some of them you have to go right, and it all _looks the fucking same._ Without any clues, you essentially have to go back to the old puzzle game standby of "try everything on everything until it works," and you _cannot_ convince me that belongs in a Sonic game. Not to mention the time limit, and more importantly, the ghosts, give a sense of urgency that just turns it more stressful than it really should be. I'm going to talk about a game that seemingly has no bearing on this at all: Dark Souls. Or more vaguely, all the Fromsoftware Soulsborne games. They do the mix of speeds excellently. Ideally, here's how it works: First, you go through slowly, getting everything you can, learning the layout, figuring out enemies' patterns, that sort of thing. Then, once you get to the point of dealing with the boss, you figure out what path gets you there both quickly and safely. This gives a sense of progress, while also being a challenge in and of itself, and something to do to partially break the monotony of dying over and over to a boss that's giving you trouble. Finally, if you're backtracking through it, you blow through the fuckers, maybe giving extra attention to the ones that caused you more trouble, should you feel like it, or hell, just go kill everything to see how far you've come. Of course, some levels do this better than others _(cough_ Shrine of Amana _cough),_ but I feel it's a fair comparison.
Classic sonic and doom eternal are like diametric opposites of game design philosophy. In classic sonic, the safest and most reliable way to play the game is to play lame. The game essentially rewards you with safety for playing slow, and punishes you for playing fast. You are expected to want to go fast and push yourself upstream for it purely for how much cooler it is, despite there being little to no numerical incentives to doing so. Finishing the level is not the difficult part of sonic; the difficult part of sonic is finishing the level while having fun. This gives the games more replay value, but many people just don't want to put the time into multiple playthroughs; they want to experience what the game is about on their first run, or at least a decent taste or idea of it. This is the exact opposite of doom eternal's gameplay philosophy, in which doing cool things is mandatory for survival. The baseline is going fast and if you're too slow, you die. This means that players get a taste of the highest level gameplay the game has to offer almost immediately, but this comes at the cost of an organic sense of discovery. It also means that once a player beats a room, it's practically "solved" like a puzzle, and the only way to make that room interesting again is to increase the difficulty.
I personally prefer Sonic 2, just for a lack of Time Over traps. While puzzles are fun, puzzles on a time limit aren’t. Sonic 2, imo, gives you more ways to recover speed than the first game, and it also has fewer places that require you to wait and examine. Also, Super Sonic ends up being a brilliant reward for getting the good ending, not only giving you a form that makes the game easier, but a form that ALSO requires you to master this new power. In zones like Wing Fortress, that speed can potentially get you killed, but it can ALSO let you leap thru the level. Yes, the games are too punishing, but number 2, with some exceptions, generally gives you the most opportunities to play with that speed and momentum, and doesn’t put the brakes on the gameplay
Ya made good points, but I still don’t care for the zone. It simply wasn’t fun to me (most of the game was that way if you ask me). I did agree with that statement of how classic sonic can be to punishing. That’s definitely the case sometimes.
Why are we comparing a platformer to a racing game? It just feels disconnected compared to the rest of the video. Now I’ve never played Crash Team Racing, so perhaps if I had played it that connection would be obvious. But as the creator of this video you can’t assume all viewers have played CTR.
We brought up comparing Sonic to a time trial in a racing game earlier on, the idea being "play a course incredibly well to maintain momentum and capitalize on it". Crash Team Racing is a bit more obvious about that than, say, Mario Kart due to the constant turbo boosting, and those boosts allow for a stronger consistent through-line than Sonic's levels. Sonic is a weird car that jumps and crashes a lot, and a lot of his platforming contemporaries don't have nearly as deep a momentum system, whilst a lot of racing games are built off of how they handle momentum. Sorry for not making that more clear!
Worth pointing out that if you know the level, you don't need to actually use the repelling things at all. You do run the risk of dropping into a hazard, but if you know what you're doing then you can avoid the tedium by simply ignoring them and simply falling down. Similarly, while you do need to push those blocks to raise the doors, I find it faster to push them halfway-through and then rushing to the door. In some ways, you could think those sections as less of a puzzle and more so the game giving you a chance to challenge how fast you think you are.
The music in this act and theme is just 👌😔
>in the 90's the complaints was that Sonic games where too easy
>some years ago the complaints was that the games where too punishing because you got hit by a enemie that you had like 3 seconds to see and avoid but was dumb Enough tô jump over or i Don't know... Jusp press down
>Now is too punishing because If you got hit or was too impatient for a platform you need to Go to a lower and slower route that is more dangerous
Geez Classic Sonic Haters can't be pleassed Just as simple
P.S i love Sandopolis i Go as Far as avoiding turn the lighs on Just to have that extra spice with the ghosts that i became quite good at avoid
Glad to know somebody actually created a video about this. I've really felt as of recently that Sandopolis Zone Act 2 is SUPER UNDERRATED.
People complain the level is slow, cramped and long? Good. The developers clearly did a good job recreating the experience of being inside a Pyramid Tomb now, haven't they?
And the music is amazing.
Never occurred to me 'till now that the Egg Pyramid in Sonic Adventure 2 is probably supposed to be an homage to Sandopolis. Nice!
Outta curiosity, what are your thoughts on Act 1? It's not the same puzzle box as Act 2, but I think it helps as a natural induction into that mentality, since you start playing with some of the same platforming elements out there. Plus rappelling down walls and using that momentum to get across gaps is just a fun thing to do in a platformer.
Act 1 is good, but it doesn't quite play on the same ideas as Act 2, which is more "hey what if we made a fusion of Marble and Labyrinth, but made them complimentary to Sonic rather than antithetical"? It's more just a pretty decently fun Sonic zone with an admittedly very boring and bad boss that sets an unfortunate tone for Act 2. It's good, though the rappelling sections are far more spectacle than scouting-focused and thus can feel more like pacebreakers in Act 1.
Sandopolis Zone Is one of my favorite zones and I know that isn't a popular opinion but my gosh the art that looks hot and sandy with the glyphs and smooth surfaces. The music is killer, love that bass line pick up in act 2 and how scared that made me when I was 7 or 8 years old on act two was amazing. The ghosts and the sand coming up always freaked me out and loved it!
It took 3 time overs as a kid to navigate this level, I can now beat it in about 4ish minutes
I used to hate this level because of how slow some of the block stuff was yet how fast certain sections of the level wanted you to go. Like, if you go too slow in the rising sand section, you run out of time to push one block to keep going and you just get crushed.
With years of Sonic 3 experience on my back, though, a lot of that pain I once felt in this level is eased. That section I just described also has an extra life that, if you're fast enough, you can snag an keep going.
It's definitely a unique level that, for the most part, presents fair challenges to the player. Certainly better than some of the crap Flying Battery or Lava Reef throw at you.
I agree that I really enjoy the more puzzle-solving elements in the original trilogy, but they’re ruined by the time limit. It forces you to feel the need to use your speed and ruins the explorative element
As a level design? Yes, Sandopolis was a remarkably fresh and novel Sonic zone to explore and master.
As a kid playing it? Literal nightmare. Its Act 2 spikes my anxiety the way only Scrap Brain ever did before.
I’m more or less at what Rowe Review said, not really sold on it.
Especially when Pyramid cave did the switches to opening doors better.
Whereas here, it just becomes tedious to push that dang switch every single time.
You did end it smoothly, well said.
Sa2 was a perfect synergy for Sonic’s gameplay. Fast, but it doesn’t leave you without warning of what’s up next: they make full use of 3D to give you a safe period of time to plan out your next moves without having to actually slow down very much. It also works in a “fortune favors the bold” manner, where there are certain higher risk routes that may only save a bit of time, but will make you feel AWESOME for clearing, and you won’t feel particularly weak for taking the less strenuous path. You can feel content just saying “I’ll check that out next time”, and speeding along on your merry way
Somehow I knew CTR would be mentioned here.
Decent argument though for classic Sonic having a good level. I think the designers of the level kind of fluked into the praise rather than understood why it was good, considering the rest of the game. I was still never a big fan of this level at all, but I respect the arguments put forth.
Would you believe there are earlier drafts of this script that don't mention CTR at all because I was worried I was overplaying it, but Gooms told me I should have an example and cited CTR specifically as "you know that game and it works perfectly"?
@@pyrrhickong Yes, yes I would.
The CTR bias is showing.
Such an overlooked level that people never appreciate. This act only gets hate because people don't like the infinite slide and the ghosts, which if you ask me, are not threatening or challenging in the slightest bit. The ghosts can just be jumped into and it takes an extremely long time for them to start attacking, and the infinite slide loops every ten seconds with only about 5 main slides, making it easy to deduce which slides you haven't gone down.
I never just tried to speed thru so I guess I never had all the issues people complain about. I played sonic 2 a billion times to eventually get the super sonic ending, but it didn't bother me to die over and over because getting better at it made it fun. For S3&K once I figured out the ring trick in blue stages. Easy peezy to get lives and continues. Never felt punished in that one too. I feel punished in Mario games because I'm not used to them like I am to Sonic games. Background and experience makes a big impact on things. As for Sandopolis as a kid I hated that level. As an adult, it has become one of my favorites. It is quite unique compared to previous levels in the series. The timers did add some tension and help increase that skill level.
I think my biggest problem with this level is how impossible it is for a new player to tell if they're making progress, or even the layout of the stage itself. I've beaten the game at least five times, and all I can tell you is that there's maybe three slide sections?
Some bits you have to go left, some of them you have to go right, and it all _looks the fucking same._ Without any clues, you essentially have to go back to the old puzzle game standby of "try everything on everything until it works," and you _cannot_ convince me that belongs in a Sonic game. Not to mention the time limit, and more importantly, the ghosts, give a sense of urgency that just turns it more stressful than it really should be.
I'm going to talk about a game that seemingly has no bearing on this at all: Dark Souls. Or more vaguely, all the Fromsoftware Soulsborne games. They do the mix of speeds excellently. Ideally, here's how it works:
First, you go through slowly, getting everything you can, learning the layout, figuring out enemies' patterns, that sort of thing.
Then, once you get to the point of dealing with the boss, you figure out what path gets you there both quickly and safely. This gives a sense of progress, while also being a challenge in and of itself, and something to do to partially break the monotony of dying over and over to a boss that's giving you trouble.
Finally, if you're backtracking through it, you blow through the fuckers, maybe giving extra attention to the ones that caused you more trouble, should you feel like it, or hell, just go kill everything to see how far you've come.
Of course, some levels do this better than others _(cough_ Shrine of Amana _cough),_ but I feel it's a fair comparison.
Classic sonic and doom eternal are like diametric opposites of game design philosophy.
In classic sonic, the safest and most reliable way to play the game is to play lame. The game essentially rewards you with safety for playing slow, and punishes you for playing fast. You are expected to want to go fast and push yourself upstream for it purely for how much cooler it is, despite there being little to no numerical incentives to doing so. Finishing the level is not the difficult part of sonic; the difficult part of sonic is finishing the level while having fun. This gives the games more replay value, but many people just don't want to put the time into multiple playthroughs; they want to experience what the game is about on their first run, or at least a decent taste or idea of it.
This is the exact opposite of doom eternal's gameplay philosophy, in which doing cool things is mandatory for survival. The baseline is going fast and if you're too slow, you die. This means that players get a taste of the highest level gameplay the game has to offer almost immediately, but this comes at the cost of an organic sense of discovery. It also means that once a player beats a room, it's practically "solved" like a puzzle, and the only way to make that room interesting again is to increase the difficulty.
dude the sonic content lately is hot
I personally prefer Sonic 2, just for a lack of Time Over traps. While puzzles are fun, puzzles on a time limit aren’t. Sonic 2, imo, gives you more ways to recover speed than the first game, and it also has fewer places that require you to wait and examine. Also, Super Sonic ends up being a brilliant reward for getting the good ending, not only giving you a form that makes the game easier, but a form that ALSO requires you to master this new power. In zones like Wing Fortress, that speed can potentially get you killed, but it can ALSO let you leap thru the level.
Yes, the games are too punishing, but number 2, with some exceptions, generally gives you the most opportunities to play with that speed and momentum, and doesn’t put the brakes on the gameplay
Ya made good points, but I still don’t care for the zone. It simply wasn’t fun to me (most of the game was that way if you ask me). I did agree with that statement of how classic sonic can be to punishing. That’s definitely the case sometimes.
Still not a fan of Sandopolis but I'll take your points into consideration. Nice video 👍
What is the music track used for the outro? I can't find that specific remix of Sandopolis.
Boo's House from Team Sonic Racing!
@@pyrrhickong Thank you!
Yo, Sandopolis Zone Act 2 was always my favorite too! : )
Gotttta go fyaaaaaaast
Not a big fan of sandopolis but the music slaps
Why are we comparing a platformer to a racing game? It just feels disconnected compared to the rest of the video.
Now I’ve never played Crash Team Racing, so perhaps if I had played it that connection would be obvious. But as the creator of this video you can’t assume all viewers have played CTR.
We brought up comparing Sonic to a time trial in a racing game earlier on, the idea being "play a course incredibly well to maintain momentum and capitalize on it". Crash Team Racing is a bit more obvious about that than, say, Mario Kart due to the constant turbo boosting, and those boosts allow for a stronger consistent through-line than Sonic's levels. Sonic is a weird car that jumps and crashes a lot, and a lot of his platforming contemporaries don't have nearly as deep a momentum system, whilst a lot of racing games are built off of how they handle momentum. Sorry for not making that more clear!
This is what the final levels of the original trilogy should've been like
It’s called git gud and then you will gain speed lmao