War Thunder's CAS Problem
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2020
- The spam of CAS (Close Air Support) in War Thunder tank battles has started to present a real problem. Tanks lack the capacity to truly fight against aircraft and helicopters, which leads to people abusing that power disparity. Thanks to AGMs (air to ground missiles) and targeting computers, even radar and SAM (surface to air missile) equipped SPAA come up lacking.
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#warthunder #tanks #tankhistory - Ігри
Artillery: hits nowhere near
ADATs: I am now dead
ADATS experience to a T .Oh a dart hit the corner of the back of my electronics suite? Guess this tank is compleatly unusable now.
If a piece of shrapnel hits a highly explosive munition it’s definitely gonna do something, I’ve died and sometimes the SAM launcher just turns yellow but the munition is definitely not protected. Look at the newest BMPT with armor around the Ataka launchers and it’s obviously due to that possible hazard.
@@KozenX except those fragments came out of the fucking rocks.
This one time i was driving my Ariete, then an artillery shell went off like 20meters in front of me and ONE shrapnel went through LFP and detonated my ammo rack. How? I'll tell you. I don't know.
i feel this in my conqueror
The amount of times I spend 10 minutes driving 2km just to get blown up by a plane that I had absolutely no way of avoiding is just ridiculous and ruins the game.
Get good
how is he supposed to get good? building up a concrete cealing over his tank?
@@lithium1770 we spotted the camper
Pop smoke or break LOS ez
@@lf6564 pop smoke when there's a walleye guided bomb falling on you that you have no idea is there cause the plane that dropped it is trying to rp as the blackbird if it had bombs.
People are talking about deleting kill cams
In my opinion, you should only see the moment when the shell enters the hull, to see how the shell hits your armor and what happens inside the tank
Also, it would be cool to have it for planes too.
Just removing the spectator cam on the enemy after the shellcam would make it better tbh
Yeah, I look forward to seeing the kill cam when I get sniped from across the map or if I pull off an amazing shot, and get to see exactly where the weak point I penetrated is.
@@pleaseenteranamelol711 Right?
It's important to know what counterplays people are using against your tank so you can anticipate them in future games, or even later in the same match.
those kill cams are in the game for a reason...
Gaijins response: he wants us to balance cas, banned.
ngl, I feel that if they made repair cost cheaper, people wouldn't be so desperate for kills, 10k for my shitty Fighter, that I was using to fight CAS, is now dead because someone felt like spraying their 50 Cal at me.
When that happens, just utter bullshit like that, (And the Radar literally just telling them where to aim to insta-kill), I am surprised when someone doesn't revenge kill. Radar would have to be balanced if CAS took a Nerf. These days I use Stukas (when I am lucky enough to not have SAMs to deal with), and just bomb with that, because the Repair Cost is just outrageous.
And in order the fix the problem they would introduce 2-3 premium tanks.
Would have been great if they never gave 4 French missiles to German and Italian jets when France gave them inferior versions
Based gaijin, air on top
G-91: *Exists*
Abrams: "Adios"
g91s: exist
allies:nOrD tOo Op
bullpups: o>0 sure
@@shadowderper8930 soooo the G.91 R/3 is both in the german and italian tech tree, gets 4 nords and is functionaly a fighter which can easly dogfight.
Meanwhile in the U.S. tech tree the only choice would be the A-4B. The A-4B is also 8.7, however it costs more spawnpoints since it is a atacker and not a fighter, it comes with only 3 bulpups and it cant dogfight because its turn is horrible and it instantly looses all of its speed when turning because of the large wing. Yeah the wing which was so large in real life because it was supposed to be able to shrug of more damage then a regular fighter wing, yet in war thunder it has the same health but also has a bigger hitbox.
@@jakobc.2558 have you heard about aam in A-4B and 5 bullpoop in fj-4b?
@@jakobc.2558 yeah, but A-4B has INSANE engine. Just go up
@@irgiefarras2159 have you also heard about the now extremely high pricetag to get one
The real problem is that Gaijin incentivise players to act like assholes.
Gaijin removed the spawn protection timer so obviously players now head straight for the spawn point and just sit there waiting for players to spawn.
Gaijin create maps that allow players to easily shoot into each others spawns.
Gaijin rewards players more for plane kills than tank kills so players jump into planes at the first opportunity.
Gaijin gave planes and helis air-spawns.
Gaijin added a kill-cam to show players exactly where you are.
Gaijin considers SPAA an afterthought. AA guns lack their historical predictor sights making shooting down planes (in RB) extremely difficult.
Gaijin allows planes to continue firing their weapons after being 'destroyed' (I HATE this).
Gaijin rewards players for any kill even it required them to slam their plane into the ground releasing their bombs at the last minute.
Gaijin rewards players who buy OP vehicles and camo bushes for real money.
You think there are not already enough campers in WT? Why killcam shouldnt exist? It doesnt solve revenge CAS entirely, If your enemy loses head-on fight he will most likely identify your tank and do revenge.
I agree on your point with air vehicle "destroyed" state
I didn't know they removed the spawn protection, which patch was that?
Tbh I don't mind CAS. Oh wait I'm playing as the Russians 4.3 hi BF 110 G oh hi P 47 D. Even the ME 410 when I'm uptiered to 5.3
Sol Yens air spawns are an issue though. It makes revenge killing extremely easy. Maps also need a rework, there shouldn't be vantage points into the other teams spawn. Also I believe it's too easy to spawn in some ground attackers like the Wyvren or A2D, out of the 600 times I've died by CAS 599 of them were by an A2D. Paying for an advantage shouldn't exist (bushes)
Sol Yens saying no op vehicles is a lie. I bet you play USSR and think the T-55-AM1 bully being at the same BR as the normal one is fine. 8.3 means it fights that only have HEATFS as a good shell so it is ineffective but it gets a fucking Dart that has over 300mm pin and a ATGM with 600mm pin.
My experiance with low tier CAS: Wirbelwind go brrrrr
and then freeaboos cry because their bully method gets blasted.....
for real... Whirbelwind could be 4.0, but just to KEEP US CAs spam at bay, 3.7 is a place it should stay at
So true that only AA's that hit me in low tier are ostwinds and wirbelwinds
@@andrehashimoto8056 FR, I love how they complain about tiger 2h being op, meanwhile every american fighter has the bomb load of a fucking lancaster
@@comrade-princesscelestia4907 oh please Germany gets the 288c that drops 2 1,800kg (4,000lb) bombs the 109 gets a 750lb bomb along with the 190's that have a kill radius better than an American or British 1,000lb bomb. Oh don't forget about all the 190's, 109's, 335, 152, 262's, 410's ... that can pen 95mm oh and don't forget the narval that can pen 130-140mm like come on i was able to get in a 410 and kill 10 players with no problem and there is no good American or British aa till 7.3 so you never have to worry about being shot down by ground units. Germany suffers, i got killed from the turret cheek, gajin move the tiger 2h and 105 to 6.0 and move the t34 , t29, t95, and m18 to 7.7. Don't forget to nurf every allied round to 180mm max and give us axis players 300mm pen minimum.
@@comrade-princesscelestia4907 At this point, KT is so easy to kill you can manage with any gun with barely over 200mm of pen, not to mention the amount of HEAT/FS rounds available now
“Cas isn’t problematic at low tier” p40s and first Corsair at 2.7: hold by beer!
Whirlwind, m16, Russian milk trucks, British crusader aa or whatever the armor car was.
@@someawesomeguy4415 r3 the Italian one?
@N!ckN4me yes, but fast
F6f’s as well
@N!ckN4me Yeah even on low br AA isn't a real counter for CAS. You better spawn fighter if you want to take out multiple planes
remember when gaijin said the stormer hvm is the 3rd best aa in game XD also that arty kill on u was bs
ironically it's a better anti-tank than anti-plane
does fine against helis imo
@@Benzo7 not fine but better. But if you you want to get invincible against stormer take prop plane
Arty killed me like that once... in a leopard.
@@Ivy_TSG Same. Arty shell landed five meters in front of my Leopard 1. One single piece of shrapnel managed to penetrate my lower front plate and ignite my ammo.
Certainly a lot better than the Type 93 SAM
Everybody gangsta until a G.91 with nords show up
Every one gansta until the p47 kills a t80 with 50 cals
It's ironic how the nation that does kamikaze the most is US (mainly with P-47s)
@@Damian-03x3 No one said a brain would be part of the package so the poor cunts were left without one.
If you see a p-47 it's about 86% chance that it will kamikaze into something.
Or just crash and do nothing, without even getting hit, that happens often too.
(From my personal experience)
Cries in ifv/apc
A good fix for CAS spam, revenge bombing, and air spawn camping is to make all aircraft (except maybe large bombers and some attackers) force spawn on the airfield. Simple and easy. You have plenty of time to reposition yourself to avoid revenge killing, enemy aircraft simply cant spawn kill you if you circle climb, and aa cant just watch the same point in the air for an air spawn.
They could possibly add AI controlled AWACS planes that can help tanks determine where the enemy planes are.
@@RedVRCC and ai AA over the airfield
Wait this is such a simple but effective solution
As if this wasn't use this whole time. No matter how fast you are relocating, a fucking plane can just bomb your tank anyways especially the slow ass tank.
I like the concept, although I have a slight alteration that I think would work
Certain aircraft(all bombers, some attackers) would spawn much as interceptors do in air RB, at speed over the runway, just to counter abysmal climb rates and acceleration
It's be nice of there was a specific game mode for CAS, like where killing AI tanks IS PRIORITY and that the tanks would have real hitboxes, not like in air RB
It would be nice if people didn't use their SPAA as MBTs and didn't rush the Spawn Point, and didn't constantly jerk around by 50 Caling every plane they see. But we don't always get what we want.
@@notapuma It would also be nice if SPAA would move with the team instead of staying in the spawn.
Ngl I like this idea like damn...sounds fun
I dropped a 1000lbs bomb 5 feet away from a tank and it didnt die! That's bs , the tank should have spontaneously combusted
@@toyotawitha20mm35 you got gaijin'd
omfg that arty death at 3:15 was top-tier Gaijin BS
its the orange fan
sure, but did that happen to u with the 2a5?? from 50ms away????? did ah 64 kill u with guns while u were flying 1100km/h in a g91r3?? does adats kill u from 3kms away while u were maneuvering very evasively???? my luck is amazing...
@@shadowderper8930 an adats killed me when i spawned in my heli like 0.5 seconds after i spawned in which is bs
You mean top tier balance.
A ZSU-57 penned the forward hull of my M103 once and detonated my ammo rack
I would just remove air spawn for everything. You would always have to take off from airfield.
In top tier or close to top tier definetly, but in lower tiers I'm not so sure that would work.
@@InitiateDee The airfields on tank maps are extremely close to the tank part of the map anyway. In in 3.7 I feel like it takes 3-5 minutes to retreat from combat over the tanks, land and get back to the battle, including the ~40s repair and rearm timer. It really feels not that bad at all
@@InitiateDee The squadron battle spawns so only Bombers get air spawns
@@shepardpolska Tanks battles are very short, that amount to enter battle is really high,I only see that thing working in top tier with their high speeds and accelerations, but in lower tiers with super slow planes like Il-2s, literally all dive bombers and Hs-129s, they will be useless both in air and ground battles
Agree with this because it's annoying when someone is camping the air spawn with an altitude advantage
and here is why none of them are going to be implemented
- CAS god planes are some of the most profitable premiums. they are easy to use, almost guarantee a profit every time, and make people able to kill 4 or 5 targets per life with them, unlike tanks which ususaly die very fast after getting to the front lines. they are profitable to gaijin, so won't be changed, just nerfed when it is the time for another premium to take their place.
- Increasing spawnpoints is a tough selling point on gaijin, but also on the game at large. CAS is a cancer that is ususaly a symptom of one sided games, but increasing the spawncost is only going to compound the issue. More points mean that ONLY the team currently winning will spawn planes, leading to an even greater snowblall. It could be made so the ordinance is a lot harder to buy, but the plane itself remains somewhat cheap, so the losing team can at least pull fighters to defend themselves.
- Gaijin hate consistency. Objectives, AIs, consistent targets are things gaijin actively nerf every so often. look at ground pounding and bombing in air RB. started by being a very decent way to win, to being midly usefull, to being utter shit. Latest maps made strategic bombing unable to affect the outcome of a match, and destroyed the earnings for them and for engaging ground tagets. In short: you fight other players for meeger rewards, making sure that you will buy our OP shit and premium time for a bearable progression.
CAS is a symptom not of one sided games, but of air RB. It's impossible to do your plane's job in air RB beyond rare or extremely specific exceptions.
Bombers can't bomb, since they're supposed to be in massive formations, losing many of them. So guess what? The lone bomber gets deleted immediately.
CAS can't go after convoys because they're immediately jumped by the enemy fighters from 2km+ above them and are helpless. If your team has to cover you, they most likely have a numbers disadvantage, because your plane can't help, but the enemy might not even have a CAS deployed.
@@epion660 my remark on CAS was regarding their use in ground RB, not air RB, but none the less here is the thing:
bomber formation is a joke after 3.7. When wheraboo fighters have the time to climb 2km above you by the time you reach the base, and with the american night hunter premiums going around radar hunting bombers (and not even talking about jets...), if you pool the few bombers together you are essentially bound to lose all of them. Remember, bombers are fragile and will disintegrate as soon as shot, so it does not matter if the formation manage to kill one attacker, now 4 of them are on the way since you got spoted. if you fly together, either you win together, or die together. chances are, you are going to die too much to ever make a profit.
So instead, bombers HAVE to split. they have a very limited time window where they can hit their objectives before being overrun by fighters, and the only means of staying alive and HOPEFULLY being able to rearm is being undetected from start to finish. sadly, that ususualy invovles having one of the bombers falling for acting as the bait to draw all the other space climbers to him. That, or you fly a frontine bomber, and dive to the bases in an effort of taking out as many of them as possible before death. Essentially, gaijin encourages you to play as passively as possible otherwise you will lose SL.
And the higher the tiers you go, you will notice bombers not even bothering to go and rearm, and that is simply because base bomb earnings have been nerfed so much that SURVIVING is more important that actually doing anything, as a full payload on many heavy bombers will NOT give you a profit if you die. This is notable on TU-4s and B-29s that have repair costs so hillariously high that hiding is the only despite it being hated by both the fighters and bombers alike.
As for gound pounders, their earnings are simply not good enough to justify having to fly low and slow and being prey to every fighter in existence. they simply don't contribute anything to victory, much like bombers. last year of playing mostly russian bombers (as i dislike air RB for fighters since it is hell for fighters that aren't good at climbing), especially the PE-8 (only heavy bomber woth flying in that tree IMO) and in a year, 3 matches were won by winning the objective. litteraly all the others ended because of team whipeout. why bother have objectives in the first place, if the idea is to make them worthless?
@@mobiuscoreindustries Exactly my point! Air RB is so fucked for planes with ordinance their only real use is in tank RB, so that's why they're so heavily flooded into tank RB, it's literally the only time you can actually play them.
- if they loved cas and wanted to sell a bunch of stuff, they would’ve kept the one shot rockets.
- they had high spawn points for tanks, why they removed I’m not sure but it made things far more balanced
-I don’t know what to say tbh for consistency as I feel it wasn’t much of a problem when I played back in the days
Let's not forget that a lot of ground-pounders have gotten much less effective in Air RB for no discernible reason. IL-2s used to be able to pop medium tanks with their 23mms, but now they can't and they're pretty much relegated to dealing with pillboxes. The PBJ-1H used to be able to one-shot pillboxes with its 75mm, but now it takes several and you're just better-off hosing them down with your .50 cals, which a P-47 could do just about as well.
Personally, I think it would be very interesting if the spawn points of tanks had a selection of anti-aircraft guns and antitank gun manned by AI.
fr. just a cancer to die in a open field match in the spawn point by CAS
"CAS is not that bad on lower BRs"
Everyone gangsta until the BF-110 C-6 shows up.
its piss easy to shoot down tho
@@nattly6340 lol with what, a wirbel wind?
@@RedAssassin274 The R3 think of it
yeah no like anything with a machine gun can shoot that down its massive and slow
@@RedAssassin274
50 cals easily kills those things
TIS MA is a whole another level of CAS, almost indestructible and you can fight jets with its weirdly maneuverable characteristics
The whole CAS/Heli-problem in Ground forces is just a symptom. The real problems can be found their own dedicated game modes that drive the people into spamming them in GF. For example, who is ever going to play Helicopter game mode when every normal player in there is just a target to spawncamp for P2W guy's?
Like there isn't Ka-50 and Apache spam in tank battles too.
@@Damian-03x3 Yes, but guess what? they have tanks to shoot. At least the regular helicopters have a chance to do something. But in Helicopter battles, they'll just sit out of your range and shoot AAMs at you as you spawn.
I agree tbh
@@Damian-03x3 At least they're trapped in 10.3/10.0 battles. You wont see the Allouete 3 or H-34 trying to fight KA-50's in Ground RB but you will in Heli Battles.
No the issue goes deeper its like all issues of tank rb in the limited respawning, if you only have one tank and would be sent to hangar why not spawn in a plane and suicide bomb on your killer? Also if you could just respawn cas would have to hit people capping or flanking to be worthwhile, rather than killing who they can hoping to send that guy back to hangar
In my books, anyone that resorts to cas just to get revenge are terrible and spineless players
You know they used to have ai anti air guns. They also had the artillery position tanks call in for support visible so cas could kill the arty consumable
3:23 That is the most bullsh*ttiest Artillery kill I ever saw!!!
"It went through the mountain rocks!(2×)
Yea... Gajin should buff all Anti-Air Vehicles where this is happening.
I can feel your pain, even I don't have the game itself!
they should nerf tunguska and adats tho, firepower is op
@@shadowderper8930, either they REMOVE tungunska and ADATS and replace them with a SAM ONLY carrier, OR they ADD SAM + gun platforms to everyone else..... or they make the Tungunska SAMs LOCK-ON based (so they CAN'T FIRE if they shut down the radar) and ADATS Missiles are made vulnerable to Smoke discharges from MBTs (grounding effect on smoke grenades for MBTs, this is BASIC stuff ANY MBT has from when it was first developed)
@@andrehashimoto8056 You do understand that the ability to lock on is still there when you turn off the search radar, right? The TUNGUSKA should be command guided as a backup, but because the radar is bad against certain types of target scenarios, you're better either hand aiming stationary low targets or making corrections while guiding a missile with radar.
Ew no aa tanks are too good rn they need nerf. It doesent have to be fair, it has to be realistic , and in real life plane kick tanks ass. Tanks can rarely fight back, even if they have anti air capabilities.
@@toyotawitha20mm35 yeah but also in real life planes aren't a point and click adventure game so it takes a lot more skill to hit tanks than it does in the game.
3:24 just hurt me in the soul. Imagine driving around and it only takes a piece of shrapnel blow up your ammo.
Also low tier CAS is pretty bad when a BF109 using 15mm autocannon can pen through the roof of a tank using rounds that never existed.
It can even pen top of IS-2.
But have in mind that 15mm bf109 CAS actually takes a lot of skill. If you don't know what you're doing you can hit the ground very hard. But G.91s just fly in the straight line 0.00005 seconds after you killed them and one tap you and three more guys with Nords, at the same time evading all of your team SPAA fire.
This is BS
@@kokaito7913 Lol playing Germany doesn't take much skill.
@@avengermkii7872 lol your average kamikaze P-47 doesn't take much skill either.
at least their plane only has 1 15mm unlike your freedom sprayer that pens the roof of a Pz.IV easily.
and the 15mm doesn't really outputs that much damage
calling cannon cas braindead is as good as calling spaming bomb and rocket cas braindead
@@avengermkii7872 playing US is easier than german
Warthunder groundforces begin with 2 problems:
Planes and spawn camping
1. Increase the spawn point for CAS. I'd say x3 heavy tank or something.
2. Runnway only, except for heavy bomber.
3. AA bot at spawn.
This is the time to say gib Shtora-1 to gayjiggles, or maybe the Tor-M1, who knows
PvtNewb yall are getting creative with names 🤣
Kewl... more OP mechanics that only Russians get lol.
Or buk m1
That might work for Russia but it won't solve the problem when Germany is on their team.
@@Orphican True, the current top tier match decider is definitely German. Splitting German into East and West should be cool, but then there's the matchmaking logic problem and no DDR tanks yet (T-72B1, T-55A, and more)
Also, something that would help with revenge bombing is removing the killcam showing you exactly your enemy is.
Also, if airfields can have their own AI AAs, why can't can't tank spawns have that as well?
I say just show the last second of when the shell hits you, but dont show the tank or where the shot came from. That way, you know what angel and possible direction, but you probs dont have enough info to revenge cas
Yeah you have to turn and accidentaly flew over enemy respawn? Too bad your plane is now completely fuxjed beacuse some idiots wanted aa there, amazing change. Imagine thinking how duch change could impact the game instead of spitting out nonsense
@@user-zy9wi1bi9q That would be improvement compared to how it is now. Imagine thinking that having to have at least some situational awareness while in a plane is worse than being able to completely remove whole enemy team's ability to play the game with no consequences.
I'm never going to be in favor of a tanks-only game mode without a complete overhaul of the existing maps in ground RB. Too many have blatantly one-sided positions, where the only method of removing the player inhabiting them is via a player directed airstrike.
Artillery?
@@honorguard7616 Artillery in war thunder is pure RNG, and has a low chance of: 1) hitting and 2) doing any meaningful damage. Masses indirect artillery fire IRL (especially modern munitions like DPICM) can disable and/or completely knock out tanks consistently, but given how much players complain about “not being able to do anything” about aircraft-which you can actually shoot at- imagine an enemy that actually *can* kill you with zero means for you to retaliate.
@@buschacha Still ,from what I notice most move when in it
@@honorguard7616 The only reason why people move from artillery is to avoid getting spotted on the minimap. If I’m in a good hulldown position I’m not moving because 9/10 times the artillery does nothing. That’s also ignoring all the times a player is in hard cover either outside the max range of the artillery call in, and the only way to get in range is to essentially expose yourself; or, when the guy is right on the edge of the spawn zone and therefore you can’t use artillery on his position at all.
Ultimately artillery in its current form is ineffective at removing entrenched opponents
@@buschacha this was in both arcade and realistic
CAS should be waaaaaay more expensive than it is. CAS is powerful and a good tactical tool, yet it's dirt cheap and cause of that, get one kill or an assist or two and boom you've got a plane that barely cost anything.
Idea: every plane and ordinance should have different spawn cost like why taking 50kg bomb costs same like taking 500kg? Why something so useless like that Italian 102mm gun bomber costs around same like super OP ILs
I was about to say the exact same thing.
Even the best gun attackers are not that good- hell most of the best gun attackers are heavy fucking fighters!
I made this point in a comment I just made I feel dumb now
Pretty sure this is already a thing, I distinctly remember being able to spawn planes without ordinance at a lower SP cost
@@hatman4818 no, its a thing where having no ordinance costs different from having bombs or rockets
not even an hour ago i played a match with my Italians.
Fired almost all of my Proxy amo against a MI28, MI24 and KA50 with the majority of shells beeing hits yet none of those helicopters crashed or died as a result of it.
This shit reminds me of the bug where Missiles wouldnt damage jets when they detonated a few patches ago because the missile exploded outside the damaging zone
I use a lot of AA Nords, and I can tell you that Prox fuses are still busted. I hit a Me163 with THREE Nords once for no damage. Ended up just having to down it with .50s. Hunters -never- die to Nords either, I've only ever killed them with double hits and a fire.
I did this yesterday and couldn't figure out if it was just me or if the he want doing as much damage as it should, spent something like 20 he on one heli and it was just "hit"s constantly
If even missiles or 76mm proximity shells only get hits, it explains why I've been pulling my hair out with the M247's 40mm proximity fuze... I swear the only damage I do is the 1/3rd of the belt that's AP.
If they either added or replaced "GrOuNd RB" with a "Tank Enduring Confrontation" mode they would be able to balance the game a lot better, even while allowing users to even play CAS, Air Superiority, Strategical Bombing, etc. Without being nearly as negative to other players' experience
I can't be the only one whose experience trying to do CAS at top tier is: * I am within 5km of AA and it has line of sight * * my plane instantly detonates *
Like shit dude I've been playing since 2013 so I'm relatively sure I'm decent at the game, and no matter what I do, even flying near top speed and maneuvering, I'm killed the second that AA can see me. My phantom has been completely useless unless there is either zero AA or outdated AA. And god help you if you're in a helicopter. I 100% agree with the point at any other tier but in top tier my experience is totally different.
Gun AA is only effective out to about 1.5km. Additionally, it requires the target to fly in a straight line. Most likely whats happening is you straighten out for an attack run and get nailed while doing it.
I think that CAS isn't a big issue at top tier either. The heli spam was cancerous, but getting close with a plane requires skill. The bombing computer at top tier isn't an issue as well. It evens the playing field as rocket AA can get you up to 5km away and planes can engage now at about 2 km distance with the targeting computer.
Me either, thinks so. The players complain about the CAS is mainly the dudes gonna get killed anyways by the enemy tanks even if there is no CAS because they lack of situational awareness.
Tbh, should close AIR support even be a thing in GROUND battles? This makes no fucking sense, the outcome of a GROUND battle should be effected by and only by GROUND vehicles, AIR support shouldn't even be a factor that can alter the outcome of a GROUND battle. I have ran into way too many situations where i am winning a 1 on 1 duel with an enemy tank and an enemy plane with bullpups or helis with rockets and ATGMs come fucks everything up. Sometimes it's just fucking disturbing when you're finally able to kill sth in GROUND RB but an AIRCRAFT or HELICOPTER come and takes it away from you.
plane is ok for me. At least spaa play can do something
Heli in another hand...
I think you need to state the difference between helicopter CAS and Aircraft CAS they are completely different. I’ve seen Helicopters shrug off 120mm APFSDS rounds like they are MGs... furthermore they can spawn out first. Meanwhile planes take a lot more spawn points to spawn out. Furthermore to take out with ordinance is a lot more. Also I take issue with the idea that planes are too easy to spawn out... I can’t see this when AAA costs virtually nothing to spawn out. An ADATS is more than capable of clearing the sky and the opponents it was designed to face were decades younger and far more advanced than the MiGs and Phantoms currently at top tier. I don’t believe any type of ballistics computer systems should be modelled in game they take skill out of the game. Now tankers are on the receiving end of “aim bot” something only radar AAAs had enjoyed. If you want to fix CAS then make Helicopters spawn point wise as expensive as planes. Reduce their ability to soak up damage and artificially reduce their guided missile range. Allow planes and AAAs to clear the skies of the other aircraft. Remove revenge killing by not showing the player location only how the enemies round killed you.
Ahhh... I can already hear the Ka50's missile coming this way....
But yea, I main AA, it's annoying asf after they add the ballastics computer. Like helicopter and their guided flying rocks with firing range of 10 KM. isn't annoying enough. My arsenal of projectile Anti Air solution is just became nearly useless.. I'm now grinding for ADATS hoping I can get those pesky sonic boom producer and little shy helis... But I think it won't help much either.
I usually lay low with radar off untill enemy CAS started aiming, Then I unleash hell of bullet their way... Usually work at a cost of 1 allies tank. I know it's sucks to be that guy but at least that pesky CAS can't do anymore damage. And their spawn points probably won't be enough to fly again soon.
P.S. I got priority tank to protect as well... Some tank is just too valuable to be destroyed. Like that only tank contesting enemy in the cap spot, for example... Try to bomb it an I'll just hold my LMB on that CAS.
I feel the SP cost of planes with ordinance (or canons to hunt tanks in the case of the Germans) should still be increased, while lowering the spawn cost of fighters to clear the skies heaps, since they would effectively only be another form of AA.
@@raptorjesus3894 the cost of fighters is low enough, just increase ordinance based upon payload then you're set imo
I almost completely, if not do completely agree with OG's statement
Well, if you're talking the abrams apfsds, the projectile you shoot out is not 120mm, it's 27mm. The diameter of the bore is not equal to the size of the sabot round, and it isn't exactly explosive, that being paired with heli hitboxes being, to say the least, janky, it makes sense it doesn't do much, if you hit the cockpit, square on, I agree it should take it down, but, hitting it in the tail etc, you're essentially going through aluminum airfoil, which won't cause the round to spall or cause any internal damage, just go through leaving a small hole, unless it hits vital components like a rotor shaft etc., just use the A1 heatfs on the M1A2, i've had it proxy detonate on heli's taking them square out on a fairly consistent basis
I’d love a tanks only mode, or at least separate matchmaking by era. I like my Tigers
Yeah, my tiger 2 get rapped by cas
You think CAS is bad now? Back when before MikeGoesBoom exposed the reserve tank capping/j out abuse and rockets were nerfed, Axis ground was literally unplayable (Im not exaggerating) especially during the historical battles events.
PanzerWafflez axis ground is totally playable tf
@@jacksonbowser4660 It used to not be. You could spawn in a reserve tank, help cap the nearest point, and J out for a plane.
And Allied players would do it a lot.
countseven I miss those days where a rocket would hit close and it would kill a tiger but know axis run all tiers besides 4.7 and lowermost saying panther at 5.3 and a tiger going against some bs 75 boos and maybe a couple of slow 76 guns lol and let’s not talk about tiger2 running shit at 6.7 and t29 gets moved up because it can kill a tiger2 then when we get to 7.7 Leo’s with there fast asf mobility and then hmmm g91 spam and lets not forget Germany has arguably the best mbts from the Leo a1a1 120mm to the Leo 2a4 which arguably the best 10.0 because of it being hull down no American 105 can pen it when hull down and also the 120s also can’t pen it lol also Germany probably has the best air force with the best mig21 and best 104s with six aim9s also lets not forget they will probably get their f4 phantom soon for some reason German players still complain when there bf109s can out climb almost all Allie team planes and probably have the best monoplanes in the game so that Germany suffers bs makes me want to kill my self while I suffer at top tier because I have to literally shoot for weak spots every time and it sucks will I can get shot anywhere besides the turret on the m1a2 but anyways I’m not saying allies suffer I’m just saying that Germany is probably one of the greatest nations to play while America is one of the most balanced nations.
Lol you just can’t play as aa then, the planes costed way more and if you killed them you had way more benefit, even if a tank on your team died most of the time if you traded a medium for a plane it was a much better trade since either the heavy might not be able to spawn another tank but if the plane abuser used the aa at the start of the match then neither could he.
Honestly, I like what you've discussed through the video, however something I haven't seen you discuss: Fighters, and SP based upon actual payload
Fighters: Simply put, underused, fighters sway the battles in the sky heavily, so if the opponent only uses CAS planes, and you've got a proper fighter, you'll make mincemeat our of their slow, heavily armed aircraft, AA is more of a close range deterrant now than anything, but I've hardly ever seen people bring out a fighter to deal with said planes, sure you won't kill ground targets most of the time, but you can prevent your entire team from being wiped from an A2D-1 by knocking it out before it has a chance to arrive
SP by payload: I believe a new system should be in place, where it calculates the number of ordinance, as well as the payload weight in KG, involve the two in a calculation to increase the SP of the aircraft/helicopter within a match, it won't be perfect and will be needed to be readjusted, but it's a start
Another point being brought up is the fact helicopters are different to jets, and you'll have to have different cases for each vehicle, as some helicopters can bring in an arsenal compared to a jet that has the potential to kill 2 ground targets, yet they are similar in SP cost
Just some ideas though :)
SP is based on payload...
You mentioned bringing a fighter, from personal experience (main germany player) that doesnt helps at all because so many planes, specially american, are formidable as fighters just as they are in CAS, many being literally fighters but with rockets/bombs, drop them off and you get a perfectly capable fighter again, and when I play tanks I want to... play TANKS, so unless I rush to hop in a plane, by the time I get to it naturally I'll be greatly outnumbered, and yeah, sure, I can down some enemy planes but at some point I'll certainly be overwhelmed and die, just adding another 15k+ to the bill at the end of a match where I only earn 8k
An easy fix to that would be to balance spawn points accordingly to the amount of missiles/rockets/bombs.
They could also remove the part of the kill cam that shows where the enemy tank is. It's not a solution but if you got a decent flank and people didn't see where the shot came from, it can stop the guy bee-lining to you and force to try and spot you
We already having a problem with constant camping or bs hill climbing and sniping from there. We need kill cam
Then that will just encourage the living hell out of camping a good spot. We shouldn't be going backwards, we should give a 50% Reduction to killing the guy who just killed you, before you kill someone else.
People will say "but muh campers" like they can't tell where a shell came from. Its not hard to tell where you got shot from, but its basically spoonfed to you anyways.
Killcams still have their use though. I suggest a middle ground where the killcam only shows the shell at the point of impact and nothing else. This still gives general direction but not 100% accurate god eyes that see the exact location the tank was.
@@ThreeEyedFish if you are getting killed beacuse of kill cam you are Just camping a spot brainlessly, if you were actually doing something other than camping there pretty much is no way of getting revemge killed considering you have moved away from that spot
One way I thought of solving this issue is a timer cool down from when you’re able to spawn in a plane from when you died in a tank. And it can gradually increase in time as you increase in br. So if you’re tier 1 it would be a 10 second timer from when you die to when you can spawn in a plane. And at top tier it would be a 60-70 second timer. That way it discourages people from revenge bombing immediately after death and knowing exactly where the player is and it gives the player who killed the person time to move which also discourages sitting in some camping spot for the entire game and instead encourages the tanker to move.
I love playing my mid war panzer 3 and 4s and just driving along, then I get blown up by a rocket from a plane that’s already two miles away. I love CAS. it totally doesn’t mess with the game for console players like me, who can’t fly with a controller, and only do tanks
ITP is the only low tier CAS plane that you don't need to play like a tryhard with a controller
Don’t play consoles lol
@@vitiate5093 oh I’m sorry I don’t have 2000$ for a pc setup. It’s not like I work only part time or anything
@@christophervanoster you don’t even need 2k. A good 800-1k is good enough. War thunder is optimize rather well. You can play it on a real ancient potato.
@@christophervanoster that is about 300-500 dollars more. With what you paid for that tv and console you spent that same amount of money that would’ve been for a pc.
I literally quit war thunder because of cas, i want a tank vs tank battle ffs
never will happen
That is imposible , that should be is a timer so the stupid who get killed in like 2 minutes and captured a base cannot spawn the kamikazes in 5 of 7 minutes
This.
That ffs was cringe. It is part of the game. No amount of whining will change that. AI controlled anti-air guns/missles are more realistic and better option than removing close air supprot. Planes and helicopters are part of this games tank games. Dont come here to whine and play something else.
@@AmdUlkoinen What? There's people who simply don't want to be cockroaches to air tumors that can decide your fate at a moment's notice. Playing as SPAA means not having fun, effectively not participating in THE GAME'S OBJECTIVE of capping zones.
Love how you use a G.91 as the thumbnail
4 year old video and still relevant ☠☠☠
Ive given up on warthunder's ability to balance cas.
*ALL HAIL OUR FLYING OVERLORDS*
I would like to remind them that I can be useful in rounding up the other tankers to toil away in ther jet fuel refineries.
Small correction, the G.91's RP cost was raised from 99k. I think now it sits around 390k. Had to go back 2 months in Discord messages to look it up because I grinded it out just before it got raised (those were the only Air RB matches I've played in the past 2-3 years).
it's still 99k RP, the SL cost is 390K though
@@harveyknguyen I stand corrected then. Should have raised the RP cost, as well. This jet is dirty.
EDIT: Love your profile picture, by the way :D
Dreadnought cool so know you guys who are already at the top tier want to punish any player who try’s to work their way to the top tier because a jet is slightly over performing in ground rb. No wonder this game is slowly hemorrhaging players
4:23 u gotta grind to get that g 91 and cas just feels natural, unless it s low-mid tier american freedom fighters with 42534324 rockets and 123123424 tons of bombs
Dont blame him he didnt grind for the G91 R3 with a Me 262 against f84s and f89s. He just bought the premium one for making in clear is an unfair CAS but yeah all the pain german tanks and planes deal at 6.7 till 8.3 are not enough for getting a bit of peace and dominance at 8.7. Honestly this vid has parts of truth but theres also a bit of cry baby nord anal gape.
Your videos are always very thought provoking!
An idea I have is either a side objective that you can capture being an anti air defense, each team starts of with 3 AI AA guns, or each main capture point has an associated anti air position within it that cannot be destroyed but only captured
I haven't played much past their 3. I love the concept of air and tanks fighting on the same field, though I do wish some of the problems you addressed could be resolved.
Tanks only in both RB and arcade would be a great option. It's what I'd play when it came to ground. If you don't like it don't use it. they added ships, and I don't like that so I don't use it. I do think the more they spread things out to where tons of people are just playing ships and whatever 10 things come next that wait times and compression will be come a much bigger problem.
There’s also the issue that you can’t cap points when bombs can blow up the whole area. The game mode just feeds kills to planes.
They should put op aa sites on the spawn locations of each time because I'm tired of getting spawn killed by some plane when I'm just trying to get out of my spawn
Increasing SP to the point you can spawn only at the end of the battle is a bad idea.
It is, but the way it is now, you can get into a plane within 5 minutes of the match without much effort. So I would like to see it pushed back a bit into the match. Also an issue he didn't mention are super slow tanks, like the Maus or T95, who get fisted by cas before they can even see an enemy.
Bs honestly, CAS is such a OP thing, I made a topic on the forum talking about it. It was more like a rant while I answered some question I got from players when I was talking to them in-game about the air problem
@@detara280 biggest reason I dont play the super heavies is as soon as I get a kill I'm insta revenge bombed and can't do anything about it.
A good change would be making something such as an A4 with six bullpups cost around 1400SP and making aircraft start on the runway.
Helicopters shouldn't be able to spawn at the start of a match at all.
Lastly, a 10K+ repair cost for G-91's and A4's would actually be quite generous considering how much SL a player with half a brain can generate with those aircraft.
My biggest problem with CAS is having to research it. As a mostly Ground battles player, its almost unfair that I have to grind an entire tree just to compete in the air
Sums up all of my issues with CAS in ground RB except for one, which is: Every teammate in the air is one less tank on the ground. I have had matches with a couple teammates buzzing around in planes while the enemy team is camping our spawn. If they were in tanks instead, they could help fend them off, even if it may only be delaying the inevitable at that point.
They should have people takeoff from the airfield like in simulator., but keep the SP system because sim's plane system is aids too
CAS should just be removed from RB and AB tbh
People in *tank* battles: _CAS, CAS, CAS, GONNA CLICK ON THE CAS_
I like that the very last scene in this video is an aircraft slamming into the ground after getting a kill.
Everything you said can be fixed just by moving the air spawn further away instead of literally 30 seconds away in a prop, or 5 seconds away in a jet.
When you start adding random SPAA and other mechanics to the game, it just gets annoying. Planes have been nerfed several times now since 2018. They cost more to spawn, earn less SP, RP, SL and now cost double or more to spawn a second aircraft.
If you spawn over your own airfield, you don't have the tedium of taking off and it takes 5 times longer to get to the battlefield. That's 5 times longer to be engaged by another air craft or SPAA. And 5 times longer for you to reposition before you're space barred to death my Suicide McGee in a P-47M he got with Mummy's credit card.
I strongly disagree with your idea of increasing Spawn points to Cass. Close air support is already over powered, why would you make it so that only the winning team could get it?
well this could be countered by making ordinance cost higher, but decreasing the cost of base planes. god knows how many times ive spawned in my ki-100 without bombs just to hold air superiority
@@nattly6340 what about mid tier german Cas using cannons?
@@sorincaladera936 None of the german cannoned cas planes (at least ones with reasonably big cannons, like 37mm) is good against other planes, so that's a counter.
Also ones with 30mms do a lot less damage and often need multiple passes to destroy a tank (unless it was previously damaged), which gives enemy more time to shoot at them.
@@Damian-03x3 Dude the 30mm just goes through the engine deck and sets tanks on fire. Immobilizing many tanks, and making them stop to put it out. 3 passes and it's 100% going to die, but even a single pass can fuck them over.
all of my friends hate planes in tank battles to the point where they rage quit war thunder entirely. Seems like it would make sense to give players the option of "tanks only".
Gaijin: hmm...I see. *it seems you want more high tier vehicles*
Spawn with AA (usually few guys get killed i usually take my gepard after i get killed even if i have sp for tank or jet)
And just sit 50% of the match time killing planes helis and when they stop coming i jump into a tank with a shit tone of sp left
You Are doing job of god but you are on Wrong team :/ G-91s deserve it more
Or you spawn in ADATS and dude in Russian heli is just sitting at 7km hovering 50m above mountain/hill top blasting away... and every time you want to missile him, he just dips down a bit and you are useless. Or dude in German heli just pokes out of cover, locks, fires missiles quickly and dips behind cover in 3-4s, and you have no way of getting him before he is safe.
People praise ADATS, but of all times i played it... only kills you can get are on bad players. Good ones are literally impossible to kill from the ground. At best you can make Russian heli waste missile because you launch yours and he has to dip and cant guide anymore(but still, he will rearm quickly and you need to find cap to sit in for couple of minutes before you can do that too... but you have only gun and are free kill for everyone, so not that easy), and for German you cant do anything at all, unless they are bad.
Even though i dont like planes either, but they are parking ticket level of offenders compared to helicopters. Those are literally cancer of WT. Disruptive, impossible to deal with, have almost no counters and have no positive effect on gameplay at all... its pure negative, for people who hate the game and want to ruin it for others too.
Honestly just add a mode where cas isn’t a thing. Sure being in a king tiger at a 6.7 match is awesome, until that f*cking P-47 drops his 2 ton bomb right on top of you. 60% of the time I actually get to be a king tiger fighting Shermans instead of Pattons, I die because of CAS
Ah how it was irl let’s keep it that way
‘Wow this AA will help me kill planes’
The 1 plane out of the 10 that are watching our spawn that sees me : that’s hilarious
Maybe they could add 3 SAM or missile sites that are activated by capping one of the objectives, for example if Red team captures point A, a nearby SAM site would help them killing planes, and of couse if the Blu team caps the point, the missiles switch team as well.
Just get rid of cas and shoot rockets at dudes in air rb. Vibes!
The confederacy of allied systems
There needs to be a thirty second timer when you spawn in a plane to avoid revenge killing
They could also just remove the kill cam entirely!
I like the killcam, helps me identify the guys with cheats on. At least it gives me an idea if to watch the replay without having to watch a heap of replays.
I fking hate CAS. Everyone rushes to planes and before you know it the sky is riddled with planes bombing the fk out of everyone. I loose more battles to planes turning the tide than people actually playing tanks. Nothing but a pansie ass thing to do. And if your driving an armed car, your singled out every single time,even by tanks amidst a crowd of others around you.
CAS is the only thing I hate about American TDs because God help you if you're in this situation in an M10
CAS is honestly one of the worst parts of War Thunder.
You make a lot of good points Spook, living under a rock would be the ideal strategy to avoid being killed by revenge bombing.
>Kill someone with my FIAT 6614
>Get strafed 60 seconds later by said player.
Works like a clock.
60 seconds is a long long time
some maps have air spawns so close i die within 20 seconds via AGM carrying jet
*me sitting here at low br with quad 50’s*
that thing is gonna be the best aa experience you'll ever have, cherish it.
Make it so you have to take off from an airfield. Then make it so the guns near the airfield or other places can be manned at some point. Also to make AAA more useful planes can be spawned in fro lm the start. This deters going full cas when you have Fighters ready to mess you up
My biggest issue is that two 100 pound bombs costs the same SP as two 1000 pound bombs, a 500 pound bomb, 8 rockets and the kitchen sink. This makes lighter loudouts obsolete and heavy load outs way too easy to get.
the way that he shows his worst clips while on the ground, and the most intense plane kill compilation in CAS to show his statement
Yeah planes can be annoying but I’d much rather get killed by a g91 pilot who knows what they’re doing than some brain dead ka50 pilot who sits 10 kilometres away from the battlefield and clicks on tanks.
true because at least g91 or any CAS planes can get killed easily on the battlefield
I’m so tired of people complaining about American CAS being the best. As you said cannon CAS is much easier to use and can yield much higher results. I can kill 2 to 3 Tiger IIs in a P-47 on average, but a Do-335 or Me262 A1/U4 can kill 3 times as many without reaming.
If you ram planes into tanks, that's your personal stupidity.
Smaller cannons (liek 30mm) take more time to destroy an enemy because they deal less damage, so you often need a few passes to destroy one target, so enemy has more time to shoot at you.
Bigger cannons on the other side, are mounted on planes that have no real chance in a fight against another plane and have hard time dodging SPAAs.
A p-47 can just spam rockets and bombs, killing the same amount of tanks but in a shorter time.
@@Damian-03x3 It really can't just spam them. The rockets only kill something the guns could kill anyways, and the bombs are far from reliable in most cases. I've literally had tanks drive over them when they detonate, and only get "hit". I've seen that consistently.
Damian030303 what? First off, you called me stupid on something that I never said I did. I do not ram my aircraft into tanks unless I’m bored or don’t want to fly it anymore. Second, it only takes one 30mm to set off the ammorack on half the the allied vehicles. Third, these aren’t the days of rockets being OP one hit killers. You will have to expend ALL of your rockets to even have a chance of killing a medium tank, while cannon CAS can easily kill a heavy tank in one pass. If you can’t, it’s down to bad luck or lack of experience. I’m talking from my own experience, I’ve been one tapped by too many Do-335s in my T34 to know.
"I fear no man, but that thing *do-335* ... it scares me."
As soon as you said you played the Stormer, I immediately though "lucky you even got any kills in that thing"
They should see that a minimum number of people spawn in SPAAG per match. I know I would do it. WT should be names fantasy thunder. WW2 tanks fighting 1980 vehicles. No fpe and parts. That's why I play less and less. F gaijain.
CAS is OP and extremely unrealistic and arcade-y, planes are too cheap to spawn, and revenge bombing is too easy. It's total bullshit. Ruins good games. Butthurt revenge bomber weaklings may disagree with me, but it's an objective fact.
I noticed on the stormer you weren’t switching selected target on the “radar” (IR) display. Hence why it snapped the view back to the friendly aircraft. Also passed a certain elevation angle you need to go into gunner view and lock the target manually, although the system can be a little finicky at times.
For me personally, I quite like the fact we have all different vehicles and aircraft in the same instance. A tank only mode would lead to an insane amount of camping and abuse of overpowered choke points on certain maps. The player base isn’t large enough to sustain more game modes for tanks while also decompressing BR’s.
But what people fail to realize, or perhaps have realized but are willing to trade : you can never balance it. It's the same issue in world of warships, world of tanks, perhaps armored warfare (Although i haven't played that one much). You can't beat something that has a fundamental advantage over you, so it ends up a unbalanced mess in every game. I approve of tank only because that's how I believe tanks started, and I loved it at the beginning. But well at this point there are way too many changes, vehicles and everything as a whole is a mess that no amount of bleach could wash off.
Three years later, the problem is arguably worse.
In the words of TheOrangeDoom "git gud"
Just ban cas in war thunder
They could also add back old SIM kill cam where the shell don’t travel from the killer to you and instead only showed the last few meters (direction) and damage.
Both RB and SIM would be nice for this.
It would help as you can be sneaky and also harder to see exactly where your killer is.
You should do a video on Heli “CAS” in SIM? :(
a bit late, but coming back to this its so relevant (at least at low BRs). im quite new and i love ground combat but planes are just ruining every aspect of what i want and what makes sense from a GROUND mode. sad that most of the community just tells me to get good or im just shit when maybe 80-90% of the time i die by planes (as a ground vehicle) there was nothing i could do to counter meaning i was almost forced to respawn as a paper thin AA and camp the back of the map. very boring, i wish there was a solution and i could have some fun but alas. thanks for the videos as always!
It's just a bunch of sweaty neckbeards in their crutches saying that. CAS is very broken and unrealistic. The e-sport sweat/wallet balancing in this game ruins it. They should be cockpit locked and forced to take off via airfield in Tank RB. Halved spawn points gain for shooting tanks as well. Taking away their instructor mouse tracking in third person is a huge fix to their laser aim and circus piloting. A timed grace period would help as well, where they can't spawn meta craft in the first five to ten minutes. I just came back from a two month war sabbatical to end up having to hide from planes spawned in the first two minutes.
at the end with the SAM sites or Triple A batterys, it could be really interesting for new mechanics, like they are in some points and tanks can just destroy them and allow theyre ally aircraft to sweep in but a SAM site (idk in 9.0 SA-2) fucking slaps the shit out of your G.91 and your team has to go do SEAD operations on it to at least keep air a little bit bussy while the ground battle develops (and also add a respawn timer for the SAMs and Triple A batterys depending on the BR)
If I had a dime for every time ive been fighting enemies or about to cap a point then strafed by cannon cas or bombed to shit. Then I could by the ka50.
I do feel like realistic battles should do away with the kill cam feature (or at the very least not show where the enemy tank is), much like how simulator battle works, in my opinion I think it would massively reduce CAS revenge bombings because the person who died does not immediately know where the enemy is to go bomb/suicide run them, unless they saw them before dying
Spookston: revenge bombing is bad
Gaijin: one of BP tasks - literally getting revenge 30 times.
I swear to god. My tank shells disappear 1 second after I die even if I know I shot it before, but the rocket from 300km+ away could still hit even after whatever aircraft that shot it had it's entire engine removed.
more environment hazards is a wonderful idea
AI infantry, anti tank and anti air emplacements
this would help quite a bit of issues and would make matches feel so much more alive and action packed
@Reverend Krieger Durden Tyler sr yeah, theres quite a lot that this game needs
one time some ass dropped all his bombs on our spawn
I feel like there's one very simple solution. Take away flight assistance. Make flying it's own hazard to worry about in addition to ground to air