I know you guys are clueless about wow but while this is an exploit, it should be the kind of bug that should be hotfixed on the spot but not ban the guy. Banning him would be ridiculous.
Literally pro raiding is theroy crafting and playing in a way that exploits every advantage possible. People saying this guy should lose his job over this are toxic AF
If something can be exploited, it will be exploited. People cheat in single player games with no one to impress so you should never be surprised by this.
people forget that people actually the tiktok infinite money glitch which was covered by Asmon a while back. Buddies if people gonna do an exploit in real life were shit is at stake... do you really think they'd care for a game?
@@ic3t3ap3ach Whole game is a wild statement, raiding is like 1/3 of the game at most. That's if you don't consider delves and PVP. Raiding/M+/Core Progression(story leveling world etc), only 1 of those is "tuned for esports".
If its in the game, its not an exploit or a bug. Its intended production code and is on blizzard. The chase bank thing is a terrible example because the system is supposed to be designed that way. Asmon might have paid someone to run his PC building company but he knows nothing about development. Blizzards developers are lazy and players shouldnt be punished for it.
@@m.j.e.5245 they arent lazy. they're underpaid. theres a BIG difference, when you aren't getting paid what you know you should be earning, you aint gonna put in your full heart into the job.
Thats not how it works, kid. If you play a COMPETITIVE game in a way that it was CLEARLY NOT intended to be played, then you are in trouble. Blizzard has made this clear since Day 1. What you are saying is like saying “If someone leaves something behind, then that its their fault and you are allowed to just take it.”
If its a macro that casts your spells at the boss without you targeting the boss directly, could this not also be achieved by mouse over casting too? If so, then the macro is already doing something the game allows, but is just taking out the 'skill' aspect of having to keep your mouse on the boss for applicable duration required.
I've said it before, ill say it again. WoWs base ui has been laughably bad since vanilla launch. Every improvement blizzard has made to it over the years has been an inferior copy of popular addons.
It makes me laugh that people who play WoW like this are often the ones who go like 'Ha Eve players playing spreadsheet simulator' which like is true sure, but have some selfawareness when you're just staring at a spaghetti nightmare of UI too. The gameplay in the background might as well be incidental background noise.
I'm the type of player that goes "hey, this ability is cool, wonder if people are talking about it" in not just WoW, but any game. It's visual aesthetics, not different from size sliders, you know _which ones_ I'm talking about. When I go to youtube to view them? I get slapped by a content creator bragging about numbers and this giant mess of god knows what's going on in the screen. 10 whole minutes about how their thousands or millions of stats and bragging about their DPS. You can't show this to new players to bring in new players. This only excites elitists who are getting older and older.
These guys are going for world first so I don't think it's surprising that they have an excel spreadsheet projected on their screen when most of the game is basically a spreadsheet simulator if you want to beat Mythic raid bosses with gear deficit. For 99% of players this is irrelevant and you can have a clean UI without much clutter and do just fine even if you go as far as to do casual Mythic raiding eventually, you might need a bit more stuff but not nearly as much as this.
This is why they have different categories for speed running games like Zelda. No glitch runs, Glitch runs, all that. Sometimes they only allow minor glitches, sometimes they allow major glitches that can beat you the game in a few minutes. There is a separate record or "Race" if you will for each of these. Makes it fair.
a 4% increase in dps isnt massive??? there is talent tree choices that give you 2.5% increase on ONE ABILITY. 4% increase in dps is absolutely huge that probably more damage than having bloodlust the entire time
Apart from the visual noise of spells hitting the boss the rest of the mechanics in the video look pretty simple: stay our of black zones and dodge black lines.
@@bashvash I mean without explaining the strategy behind what the players are doing, it's not oversimplified at all. That is exactly what the mechanics require from what you can see in the video.
How is this big news? Am I missing something here? He went up a few % on the meter. In past expansions fire mages could go from being bottom of the meter to doing like 70% of the overall damage just by pressing combustion. Is it being an exploit even relevant when it's so insignificant? Nobody was banned for skipping phase 1 on Atramedes in cata and I'd say that's a way more advantagous exploit which was also extremely wide spread.
in legion shadow priests could do triple the dmg of the second guy lol,it wasnt a bug,it was just how it worked,ofc they nerfed it next tier,but for a time it was magic,this is a joke by comparison
What is Asmon's take? At first he said "I think its totally fine they are cheating, who cares?". Then 1 min later he said "they should be suspended". Then 3 mins later he said "obviously they should he banned for cheating, I just dont really care because Blizzard puts too much focus on the race". Which one is the take?
Whichever one that his editors clip and gets the most views as a short. Haven't you noticed Asmon always plays both sides on almost every issue he talks about?
@@GrassSaint33That's understandable. But the tweet he was responding to wasn't outrage. They just described what was happening and said there was criticism.
He's saying that he personally doesn't care whether they cheat or not, and thinks people over value the race to begin with. He ALSO feels regardless of his personal interest in the topic it makes sense that people are calling attention to it and wanting punishment. It's possible to not be personally invested about the topic but also empathize with a side simultaneously.
Ye, why does blizzard even let it stack to 250 if it’s supposed to proc at over 8 to begin with? Easily coulda set the cap to a way more realistic number and it wouldn’t matter
@@zym6687 Technically speaking it did have a target, focus target is a target. Most likely the bug was simply that the ability was not coded to account for other targeting types like focus target. This most likely why is was so easy and quick to fix.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
2:49 old final fantasy bosses that cast reflect on themselves can still be hit if you cast reflect on yourself and bounce your own spells off your party.
This exploit was fairly similar to pictomancer in ff14. When it launched you could turn your buff on and off which would stack and increase dps output. so much so that they created more aggro on pulls than tanks. They fixed it really quick tho.
i like ease of use addons, but everything i enjoy could be added into the base game. things like combine/uncombine bags, better crafting UIs, better AH UI, custom UI frames, map info, rarespawn alerts, etc.
blizzard could add these things,but why would they invest so much time and money when people do it for free?and they do it in all kinds of ways,addons arent as op for raiding as they used to be,its timers and clear icons for debuffs these days mostly,the people who complain are just REALLY bad at the game and use it as an excuse
They used the bug on two pulls, neither of which even got the boss below 30%. It was hotfixed 30 hours before they killed the boss. The talent was literally doing exactly what it said, it was perhaps unintended, but if reading the tooltip tells you the bug, then it's not a bug, it is working as written. Meanwhile Echo are using a bug where the tooltip reads "Shadow Dance lasts 2 extra seconds" which increases your auto attack damage significantly, and stacking 4 rogues in their comp for this boss.
This isn't even remotely true and you only get this take when you ignore the entire tooltip, but its a common retort from people defending cheating because someone else cheated before they cheated.
I've been going to fighting game tournaments for over 10 years and it's interesting seeing the massive difference in attitude between the communities regarding exploits Finding an exploit or unintended game mechanic and abusing it is for the most part seen as completely fair game by the vast majority of the FGC. Very few ever get banned in tournament play, and part of learning an older game that never had them patched out is learning how to use/deal with them
The ability was functioning exactly how it reads on the talent tree, 'if you have more then 8 splinters - fire a splinterstorm at your target." If you dont have a target they arent going to fire, how is this a problem?
@ddenozor it's extremely common for people to have macros that cast at certain targets without targeting them. It's quite literally standard play. Pvpers use it to cast CC on 'arena targets 1/2' Priests use it to cast PI on targets assigned in raids, Evokers use it for their buffs.
@@JustGetAHous No harm done, sure. But his intention was obviously to use it to kill the boss, otherwise there would be no reason to do it in the first place. He decided the risk was worth the chance to help kill the boss. Players were banned for a renown exploit that gave them at best 15 crests. To me and many others, it makes zero sense why Imfiredup did not get punished. When Echo players did the renown exploit they were vocal about it, showing it, joking about being banned. Imfiredup decided to go out of his way to hide his use of the focus macro. I do not understand the decision making from blizzard. I hope Liquid wins, but it would be even cooler if they did it without firedup.
Whether an exploit should be allowed depends on how healthy it is for the games playability. We can use Smash Bro's Melee as an example: Wobbling: A certain character grabs you once and you die from minimal effort or thought. This is an unintentional mechanic and is banned in competition. Wavedashing: A universal movement option that opens up the creativety of every character. This is an unintentional mechanic and is NOT banned in competition.
You can even do that in hardcore. There's a camera interaction settings that create a "facing target focus" even when hardlocking on another player. the setting will send any harmful spells to the closest target facing without breaking focus on the tank or any player.
Asking your GM NOT to display your screen publicly. Having an addon to hide what your are doing. Permaban him and temp ban the entire team for 90 days.
Nah, it’s falling apart because of people like you who take things “too far” and try to make everything political, pointing out topics that has a different agenda rather than keeping gaming about “games.” Believe it or not, some people play games to have fun and get away from real life stuff for a bit, then theirs people like YOU who come in and makes everything so dramatic. Not everyone in the world is a softy, so relax and enjoy the ride. 😂🤡
@@Hethalean Sure but isn’t this about someone in WoW (game) cheating, online? I didn’t know this was under American Politics. I might have stumbled on the wrong video. 😅
its not cheating,its an unintended interaction that gave em a tiny % dps lol,ret palas in cata could solo bosses in dragon soul,no1 got banned because it was blizzards fault not players just playing
*If this was a Good and Fair MMORPG like Final Fantasy 14.* *The Player would get Banned for intentionally Exploiting.* *All members knowingly participating despite the fact would have their Rewards and Kill removed.* 😎
As someone who's meme'd on Blizzard esports for awhile, it's hilarious seeing everyone react to the rampant amount of cheating present in RWF. Every top DPS is using third party software to perfectly execute every "proc" btw. You can just look at the logs and see when someone is cheating when they react to procs flawlessly over 5 minutes even when it's milliseconds from their spec ability. Now wait until you hear about the "spectator glitch" (as the casters are instructed to call it) in overwatch...
@@raphg6319 Hyper unga take. If you ban the top 3 guilds you just ban all interesting RtWF. Big fucking pass. This is just a lazy L take and you damn well know it is.
Another game recently had this issue during a competitive game mode(Oldschool Runescape's Deadman Mode). Jagex Devs banned anyone that was invloved with the entire clan(guild), no questions asked. 100+ top players and 200+ accounts. Cheating in a competition is significantly worse than cheating for fun or curiosity. There is a scale, but nobody likes to use it.
I don't like people getting banned for using mechanics that the devs oversaw the moment a bug Is out that's the devs problem to fix and it's not like the mage was oneshotting the boss
@@techLiteracy_ most macros arent used for the purpose of breaking game mechanics, but if you're going to be lissencephalic about it then ban all the macros.
For the record, the "Massive dps increase" is literally a 4% dps increase from the other hero talentry. Not to mention the ability itself says in the tooltip that it will only explode on "your target" meaning if you take the tooltip literally then technically this could be described as intended.
if blizzard makes this possible, it is not cheating. in effect, every addon is a cheat and if they provide this api, banning people is diddiculous. and yes, the game sucks because they provide support for addons. addons it also what ruins classic/sod and the developers even build around addons, so not using all niches would be just stupid. those guys should be rewarded. and clearly a downvote for your strange opinion. i feel like a cheater every time a horn sounds that tells me to move.
Well a team could also hack their opponents accounts during races and delete their gear. That would just be clever use of blizzard security mechanics as well.
@@Mas-ij3ti Tbh that is probably the dumbest comparison I've seen. Hacking into someone elses account for even the slightest edge in a competition should have you banned permanently. As for what they did where they "Exploited" the fight this shouldnt be a ban. Honestly if you want a fair kill just have blizz fix the fight and take away there kill and have them redo the fight with the "Exploit" removed. This is 100% on blizzards end rather or not it was intended to be part of the fight that is not the teams fault for using it at all.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
Dragonflight runes can be applied first, then the new iron claw whetstones for two hours. Same thing applies to flasks tier 1 first, then tier 3 for 2 hours of 3
And who says you need them ? Or why are they so horrible ? Would love to hear any explanation from you. I don't believe you need them and i also don't think they are bad for the game.
@@Akynam you need them in order to be on a level playing field. It's also hugely inconvenient if you don't have those add-ons. Without them, you need to put in double the effort for half of the benefit.
@@Akynam So you're telling me you would rather walk into a mythic raid, M 15+ or higher, and or play at a 2100+ pvp rating without addons not knowing when a spell is off cooldown or when the next mechanic is gunna slap you in the face and fry you into oblivion. when you could turn around, download a couple addons that literally tell you and play the game for you, all so you can make it easier on you and your party? I have zero belief you even touch the endgame of any part of wow if you are playing with zero addons because you are at such a disadvantage its actually not even funny. Now i will admit i hate addons i think they should go but i still have them because without them doing anything endgame is basically 200x harder and im not really one to enjoy putting in triple the effort just so i dont have to use addons.
@@deenman23 Most of the time blizzard build mechanics around addons cause they know a majority of players use them... if anything players arent bad its just blizzard having bad game design. Which like i said im not a fan of addons but im def not gunna play retail wow without a few to make some of the content actually enjoyable even it its only a small amount more enjoyable.
Yea, because exepcting a dev to deliver a product with little of those bugs is too mucht to ask... If it's in the game and the Dev doesn't INSTANTLY either disable it (the fight in this case) or fix it, it can be assumed it's intentional and allowed.
A small damage increase from using a talent that functions as worded is not a bannable offense. Cheating on and end boss by having a software circumvent an entire mechanic that resulted in a team winning the RWF despite being way behind and playing worse to the point they couldnt even kill it on reclear the week after without the software, that should have been grounds for SERIOUS punishment. But those same people are now whining and begging blizz to ban firedup despite the fact that Liquid reported it and it was then fixed. Echo fans belong in mental asylums.
this is on the developer to fix it, exploiting more this prolly just the way they meant to beat the game during normal play it just transformed to the challenge thing
TBH I don't see anything wrong with abusing mechanics, whether they're intended or not. The race is about getting there first, unless you're breaking TOS by doing something, at least as far as I'm concerned, everything goes.
Honestly agree. If this was about “fairness” and “blizzard’s intended way of playing” blizzard never intends for splits to be viable yet this is literally 90% of gear farming for RWF and very high end HoF guild’s for heroic week. Should we ban every guild that does splits because blizzard intended us not to do splits?
@@grimfocusgaming4391 In my opinion at least, watching people come up with these tricks and exploits is part of the fun, it's even better when others figure them out after the fact and build on top of them to potentially do something even crazier or utilize them to a greater extent. Theory crafting is and has always been a very significant part of the game and I don't see this as any different.
Problem with removing addons is, the game has so many buffs and abilties that it's impossible to keep track of everything if you want to efficently perform rotations for a lot of classes, this argument is valid for classic era and a little bit beyond, but in retail? nahhhh.
The current game design would obviously be unplayable without addons, but if they remove the addons, they could just design a game that humans can play. Rather than designing the game around trying to challenge the addons that people are forced to use.
Even vanilla was awful to play without mods because of how laughably bad the base ui was. At launch you literally had 1 action bar, with pages. Dont even get me started on debuff tracking.......
spot on comment, most of the people complaining here are classic players that are too bad to even step foot into any modern raid. All they do is cope that addons play the game for you as if they could ever kill any hard boss with any addons......
This video is 5hrs old and this happened yesterday. It was hotfixed within a few hours. In addition Liquid notified Blizzard of this bug 3 days before this and Blizz did nothing with their report. If your going to report on drama at least get the details correct and current. Not 24hrs behind.
I'd say World of Warcraft would not have fallen off so hard if they went with emerging gameplay instead of punishing players. I mean in Warframe the huge amount of mobility was not intended at first, people were abusing stuff and they were like "ok, this feels cool, let's add it as a feature" and guess what, the game became better. Emerging gameplay in WoW? Nearly all modern bosses are too hard for the average player and make people, even professional players use addons and exploits. Add addon features into the game. Fix bugs that allow exploits or if they are fun, then ADD them as a feature. There are too many players playing illegally on pirated private servers? Make the game free-to-play with a cash shop. To be fair WoW tries to add addon features into the game but they should have went balls-deep with it and disallow addons. Cheaters should not be punished but interviewed, cooperated with and rewarded for their cooperation. Use them as testers! That's it. Only those should be banned who are doing malicious hacking and other actions that ruin the experience of other players. Haven't played WoW for ages and as long as Blizzard is more worried about stock prices instead of making something out of WoW, I will stay away. I mean most of the mechanical development is AGAINST players "not playing right" and not about how players want to play. Also these borrowed power craps, transitional stuff that become obsolete every patch, all that is wasted development time that would be better used on the rest of the game, like updating old stuff, making old dungeons, raids and areas relevant and so on and so forth.
Fun fact, the tooltip STATES it goes to your target. So if you never have a target, you just have a focus target. Well then, isn't that by design? :) He wasn't hiding it from Blizzard, he was hiding it from the competition.
@@Shuubox Nah it makes perfect sense, if the devs put something in the game it's hardly anyone elses fault for using it, plus they knew it was there since beta, at this point its practically a class feature
2 місяці тому
these Rick and Morty fans with 65 IQ trying to make "2Deep4you" posts are hilarious
The tooltip also states it occurs at 8+ stacks, so lets ignore the half of the tooltip that contradicts reality and doesn't fit a silly narrative that 250 stacks is "working as written".
One of the things that's wildly different between WoW and OSRS is the developers willingness to embrace the bugs and exploits. Obviously certain things have to be fixed, but generally speaking, exploits kn OSRS just become supported features.
10:00 this argument is like saying submitting a tool assisted speedrun as a normal run isn't cheating because "its not changing the games code and everything the tas does is technically possible in the game"
But there are speedruns that use bugs found with tas lol, look at super mario 64 they have individual level times that were fully bruteforced and they just copied the inputs. Or trackmania, same thing.
@kingdweeb5065 yes found with a tas used and preformed by a real person instead of a macro, there are also plenty of "tas only" tricks that are so far physically impossible for a person to do or at least to do consistently enough to use in a run
It says in TOS that you are not allowed to exploit bugs in the game and he's playing the game so he accepted the TOS. Blizzard have every right to ban him
@@AndrewSmith-sl5zj ''tells you everything'' the terrible game design doesn't, by that logic having a raid leader call out stuff should be considered just as bad for the game ? Weak auras do not play the game for you, none of the addons do, you are controlling the character and you have to outplay the mechanics. Classic bozos acting like they could get cutting edge on retail just thanks to addons pretending like it's easy mode while they probably never tried any modern mythic bosses, all they know are their target dummy trashcan classic raids.
@@AndrewSmith-sl5zjweak auras do tell you certain things so you can focus other things. for sure. but even with that, it's insanely hard. you can give a full raid team the same WAs and see how many of them still fuck up
Ultimately, it's the developers who should define what is allowed, and what's not for the health of their game. For example, they could say that this time, both teams get the WR, but in the future, exploits will be banned since it shifts the focus to finding game-breaking bugs rather than being about sportsmanship and doing the content within intended design rules. And that in the future, if a team finds an exploit or bug, they can ask a dev about it, who can then decide if it's okay or not.
Also, this shit matters to so little people. idk why so many people are complaining about it. Don't worry, lil buddy , you still aren't good at the game.
True. What bothers me is it feels like there's more discussion on this than there was when early access was announced. People need to get their priorities straight. If you're going to complain at least focus on something which is obviously bad for the playerbase at large and not something insignificant that was immediately patched.
It's not a mechanic, it's just an effect coded in a wrong way. If it was a mechanic, it wouldn't have gotten removed. Where's the fun part in such a mechanic? It's not very clever for game designers to make game mechanics like this.
As a returning player, I've finally started having fun this expansion, sadly I feel my enjoyment being sucked away in raids, especially Silken Cour boss in Nerubar palace, where one mistake just wipes your group, even in normal difficulty
I remember why I quit that game. Raids were so boring. Your reward afterwards ? You get to do it over 1000 more times and hopefully getting some random Drop.
Whenever a function in a game is used in a way that people consider a "cheat," it means the developer didn’t properly account for it. Ultimately, the "cheat" is limited by the game’s own mechanics and possibilities-it’s not an external addition. Therefore, it’s not truly a cheat since it exists within the game's design. The developer should thank players for pointing out the issue and simply fix it.
I mean... Exploits should be used if they're in the game. It's free game until it's patched. I agree with Zack, let them cheat. Also, addons are a stupid concept as well.
"Exploits should be used if they're in the game" - bruh, what? Exploits are called exploits because they weren't intended as a mechanic, so it's obviously cheating. If you exploit by a mistake/unknowingly then you shouldn't get banned in any game, but using macros to SPECIFICALLY exploit - that's cheating.
I agree that exploits generally shouldn’t be bannable but the situation is different when there’s a competition that explicitly states not to use exploits.
Did I miss something? TWW has been well recieved, the warcraft logs creator thinks based on his data the game may have broken its peak player count, they already announced the next patch, im sure something is going on with SoD and classic HC is about to have a big comeback. Oh but this mage did 4% more damage and it was immediately patched... Yikes how embarrassing what a massive L for blizz.
@@EmpyreanDreamer "the warcraft logs creator thinks based on his data the game may have broken its peak player count" Until they return official, verified numbers I'm going with under a million subscriptions and some other million bots. Not making public player number means they hardly have anything and the only way to convince many people otherwise is to make them public again.
6:40 - that's the worst argument ever... what if a body builder who's made it their life to compete in bodybuilding cheats - can't suspend or ban them, it's their livelyhood...
Other raiders got a 4 day ban for an exploit that was less impactful and less convoluted to pull off. He shouldn’t be banned for a long time, but there’s no way it’s fair to ban for the rep thing and not for this.
Bro if you want to hold them accountable based on past actions how about skipping Atramedes phase 1 in cata? Thats a big exploit and just about everyone did it. Blizz did nothing. Nobody was banned and it took them a month to even patch it. Does this being world first race make it different? No. It's not an official event. Not to mention this bug was reported in beta. If it was still in by mythic opening you might as well consider it a class feature. And besides if he wanted 4% more dps he could've just played sunfury. It's incredibly depressing that there's more discussion over this "advantage" than there was when paid early access was announced.
@@EmpyreanDreamer I’m not holding them accountable based on past actions, I’m basing it on action during THIS RWF, people got banned already during this race so I’m basing it on that for consistency. Why would you want inconsistent banning within the same race? And it isn’t a 4% increase, that’s a lobotomised way for doing math. If person A can lift 100lbs and person B can lift 200lbs, if person A takes a pill to increase their lift and then lifts 202lbs, that isn’t a 1% increase, it’s a 102% increase. Why are you comparing a class with an exploit to different class instead of the class with the exploit to the same class without it? Rhetorical question, it’s to downplay the cheating by obfuscating just how impactful the exploit is.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
The race to world firsts is about finding creative ways to use whatever the games give you to get their first. Make no mistake, any team that worked this out would use it to get ahead without a second thought. If blizz let this happen then they need to ban themselves from releasing raids until all the bugs are out and world firsts should only be valid if they are done without addons. Lich king to me was about perfect for fight difficulty before DBM became the go to tool for tools.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
@@Arzoden I understand the sentiment of your statement, but I honestly think most exploits are caused by restrictions in coding itself and not from incompetence. I imagine its extremely hard to anticipate "how" players will play the game. The reason I say these things are a restriction in coding, is because there are several games, both old and new, that have inventory duplication exploits for example. Everything from Pokemon Red to Baldur's Gate 3 have this issue.
From a layman’s POV (only played Vanilla WoW), this seems to me like the natural progression of having more and more advanced add ons. Sounds like these folks found a new meta.
This type of exploit shouldn't result in a ban at all wtf are people smoking? Fix the game maybe. What will be next? Hunters macroing all pet abilities in their own abilities to make them use them more frequently will be considered an exploit too?
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
this boss hp was crazy high,keep in mind this expansion the ilvl its much higher than in DF was at this point,they used one tank,and still clutched it in the enrage
The thing is, if people noticed this then the other guilds in the race also knew this exploit when it happened so I'm sure they also did the same in the end
here i will fix this for you maybe it makes sense for you: I love how Asmon acts like people that STILL play wow and take the game WAY too serious are losers. Does he not remember the last 15 years of his life
To be fair, this wasn't always against the rules and in recent years it almost never incurs bans. WW monks are a perfect example of this. that class had so many small intridcate things that didn't function how they should. But that actually played into the class, the playerbase actually really liked how it felt, and eventually(after blizz removed it all and massive pissed off the community) they slowly readded ways to replicate this. Not saying this isn't exploiting, but we do have a precedent for these type of interactions with spell mechanics.
Imfiredup did nothing wrong. He used mechanics within the game. Blizzard should have thought of this during testing. Just because the players found a way to boost their dps it's not their fault. People have done things like this since the beginning and were never banned or suspended for it.
Exactly, everything he did was doable with in game functions. He didn't need an addon to pull it off. To me the "deception" he used was more likely to hide it from other players duplicating it.
That is exactly what an exploit is. Abusing an unintended game mechanic, it’s literally in the EULA and very much actionable just like the Severed Threads exploit was a mechanic in the game that got a lot of people suspended. Just because Blizzard doesn’t fix things timely doesn’t give a RWF player the right to cheat. It’s extremely selfish to risk this in the middle of progression when you clearly knew you had to hide it.
@@MikeyJ232 using macros and intended gain mechanics is not abusing the system. Blizzard knows players use macros for all sorts of things if they didn’t think about that when they originally program the fight, that’s their own fault. It’s not cheating he may have thought it was intended. There have been many weird things over the years. We weren’t sure if it was an exploit or not. So you can’t ban somebody when they don’t know if it was intentional or not. He was hiding his screen because he didn’t want other people using the thing he found. If that’s the case, everybody in the raid would’ve been using it. I would be like yeah that’s a conspiracy maybe to cheat. But considering this is a lone instance with one player at least that I’m aware of. I’m gonna go with he was just using game mechanics. I’m fired up is a respectable mage and has long been a top DPS mage for a very long time. Even if you don’t believe me, I can give you a quick example like the arcane crystal and the prophecy of fear trinket. Many people thought that was an exploit when it first came out, but according to blizzard it was intended use that trinket on the arcane crystal as well. Just because you think it’s an exploit doesn’t mean that it is one.
@@ikiwheese It was obviously an exploit, let’s not play rationale gymnastics here. You cannot tell me that the best players in the world were unclear about something that was obviously not intended to work. There has never been and never will be a point in the game where using a focus macro to do more damage is an intended game mechanic. It’s crystal clear by reading the tooltip of the talent that the interaction was unintended and not working how it was coded for normal play. Just because Blizzard is at fault for leaving exploits in their game does not give the RWF players the right to abuse them. It is selfish to risk your account in the middle of a race when the stakes are so high. Especially after seeing Blizzard take action in the pre-season for the Threads exploit.
What always frustrates me is how we've gone from, back in the day, being banned for using external programs (like aim bots) or changing game code. Now "cheating is literally jusy using mechanics within the game. Intended or not.
@@Celari they got a few day ban for straight up doing shit on stream and making it known to others--with that said it was pre release of the race and affected them in no way except a little sleep. dratnos in his RWF recap said tehy should do a few HOUR ban mid liquid day to send a message and since its only a few hours MID race it wont actually make much affect... -- luckily atleast it was fixed before they ever got a kill anyways
Ir's not cheating if it's the devs' fault. Devs made the game the way it is, devs don't ban macros, devs don't ban add-ons, devs don't ban bots. It's not Bobby or Activision CEOs who make the technical decisions which results in bad game mechanics.
People use the term 'exploit' differently. If it's something anyone can do using tools in the game then it's Blizzard's fault and they should fix the game. If they're using tools outside of the game to do it then yeah, ban them.
I think you could define exploit more broadly to include bugs unrelated to game mechanics: using speedrunner-style glitches to clip through walls or the like for benefit. That hasn't been a big problem in WoW, but it has in other games over the years. Also, while I might not call it an exploit, banning for using item/money duping bugs is simply necessary or a game won't have an economy.
@@SkorjOlafsen They shouldn't be banned. The bug should be fixed and at worst the duped gold and items taken away if it's going to have a massive effect on the economy and ruin things for other players.
@@nickmajora Without bans there's no punishment/disincentive for duping. An MMO economy can be permanently destroyed in the time it takes to find and patch the problem. Multiplayer games don't last long if they permit a small group of players to ruin the fun for everyone else. That's the key consideration.
@@Akynam First describe why you need any add on. If any of the reasons give you any advantage, it's a cheat. It's an outside program used to make the game easier. How is an add on NOT a cheat?
@@crewellye5428 Ok so is raid leader on discord that's not even in the raid calling stuff for everyone cheating ? Is looking up guides before a boss cheating because it makes the game easier for you ???? Since when advantage = cheat
@@ANotoriousBLT But it's not? Those weakauras are the exact same as the ones you can download off wago or make yourself, they just don't release them to everyone.
Most ironic part of all this drama was Max going out of his way after they pointed out the renown exploiting to say Liquid would never cheat or allow cheating, yet here we are with him still on roster. At the end of the day, it's all about the $$$ from viewership, subs, and sponsors and if there is no risk to that, they really don't care. They will certainly clutch their pearls when someone else does it though.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason. It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
Wild part is that echo won last tier with an exploit. Also, He wasn’t hiding this from blizzard, just didn’t want echo to be able to use the same exploit.
I don't think I am alone in saying that MMOs lose a lot of value without a dps meter of some sort (personal or otherwise). Otherwise gear, rotations, learning your class, stats, etc. are near pointless and we'd never know if our dungeon win is luck or who is holding us back. DBM and addons similar are completely un-necessary, totally fine getting rid of those.
I'm fine with certain addons. Addons that only give UI assistance for people who need assistance that the game can't provide. An addon that displays your bars, (health, mana, etc.), around your character it helps to keep attention on health when you get tunnel vision. Addons that help find resources or keep track of resources you find, this is fine. Addons that macro your controls, unless you have a physical disability that you need macroing to make the game playable for you, don't.
So the best players, with the best coaches, with ample free time and custom weakauras cannot clear the raid EVEN WHILE CHEATING ??? Who gives a shit about exploits, why the fuck is the raid so hard ? What about 99.9999% of the palyerbase ? Do we just get cucked, forced to watch until the RWF is over and the raid gets nerfed ? You know what, fuck this, I'm out.
I had an argument with a friend once because he said the rtwf was good for the game when the fact that it exists just causes the game the game to be worse for everyone else
"This makes Blizzard look stupid"
Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?
lmao
wow is cooked
XD
right these titles are dumb lol
Surprised people still play world of *GRIND-* craft.
A bug that benefits the players? They’ll fix it tonight
The Lich King can STILL bug out and simply not die to this DAY, by the way
Same for Kael'thas. which was only released in 2007.
@@Skrooby13 thats not a bug its a feature lol sometimes thr Lich King just wins
The bug was fixed yesterday already.
Idk wtf I'm even looking at. Omg. This HUD Is terrible. I have never played this game before.
The way it should be. I'll never forgive blizzard for what they did to my boy
Exploit early, exploit often. That is how you play Blizzard games.
That’s how you play all games
i thought the best way to play blizzard games these days is to not play them?
They also exploit their playerbase so its all cool
I know you guys are clueless about wow but while this is an exploit, it should be the kind of bug that should be hotfixed on the spot but not ban the guy. Banning him would be ridiculous.
Literally pro raiding is theroy crafting and playing in a way that exploits every advantage possible. People saying this guy should lose his job over this are toxic AF
I, for one, am shocked that anything in World of Warcraft is broken.
If something can be exploited, it will be exploited. People cheat in single player games with no one to impress so you should never be surprised by this.
True! People were using game genie to beat games in the 80s and 90s to send in a screenshots to Nintendo power lol
People whine on the internet on how others play single player games even (especially) if it doesn't affect them at all.
people forget that people actually the tiktok infinite money glitch which was covered by Asmon a while back. Buddies if people gonna do an exploit in real life were shit is at stake... do you really think they'd care for a game?
I'm not surprised. I just expect them to get punished. Certainly lost a viewer.
No one to impress? Who cares what people do in their solo games? You can cheat if you don't want to grind for instance
Reminder, The RWF is just a community event.
Except it's tuned for silly esports. Love the new model of nerfs every week for 15 weeks.
the whole game is tuned for community events aka esport.
Rwf is the event that killed the game for everyone
@@ic3t3ap3ach What? The raids are tuned to impossible. They're dripping nerfs into fights they can't beat...the rest of the game is irrelevant.
@@ic3t3ap3ach Whole game is a wild statement, raiding is like 1/3 of the game at most. That's if you don't consider delves and PVP. Raiding/M+/Core Progression(story leveling world etc), only 1 of those is "tuned for esports".
Top ranked guilds have been actively trying to be the first to find and exploit bugs since Wow was first released.
If its in the game, its not an exploit or a bug. Its intended production code and is on blizzard. The chase bank thing is a terrible example because the system is supposed to be designed that way. Asmon might have paid someone to run his PC building company but he knows nothing about development. Blizzards developers are lazy and players shouldnt be punished for it.
@@m.j.e.5245 they arent lazy.
they're underpaid.
theres a BIG difference, when you aren't getting paid what you know you should be earning, you aint gonna put in your full heart into the job.
@@mis8866 If they were underpaid they would find other work and blizzard would go bankrupt
Think a bit
I look at all that screen clutter and just think, wow, that looks unfun.
well, it's fun.
the new raid is actually fun tho, you are looking at a professional min maxers screen
Your not gonna be doing it on mythic so your fine
Why is there game in my UI simulator?!
Bro, all the defenders in the comments. "Don't insult my trash! Its mine!"
😂
There are like 6-7 classes who are all exploiting bugs in their character rotation currently.
It's comforting to know that as much as the game supposedly changes over time, the same old crap is somehow news.
if they just focus casted the boss down, thats an oversight on blizzard with the mechanics, and clever use of game mechanics on the players.
could say the same for renown glitch for echo/method. It was just a "clever used of game mechanics"
Yeah idk how you can design that and not check what happens when they don't have a target, designers don't play their own game.
Thats not how it works, kid. If you play a COMPETITIVE game in a way that it was CLEARLY NOT intended to be played, then you are in trouble. Blizzard has made this clear since Day 1.
What you are saying is like saying “If someone leaves something behind, then that its their fault and you are allowed to just take it.”
@@lingricen8077 ok marxist
@@zym6687 Lazy developers and a lazy architect. Lack of QA. Pathetic from blizzard.
If its a macro that casts your spells at the boss without you targeting the boss directly, could this not also be achieved by mouse over casting too? If so, then the macro is already doing something the game allows, but is just taking out the 'skill' aspect of having to keep your mouse on the boss for applicable duration required.
This bug was in since early beta, and reported MULTIPLES of times. This is on blizzard.
Bold to assume Blizzard was smart to begin with
I've said it before, ill say it again.
WoWs base ui has been laughably bad since vanilla launch.
Every improvement blizzard has made to it over the years has been an inferior copy of popular addons.
Yeah, any pro developer will tell you WoW is a clown show. A corpse of an application that keeps getting resurrected by mediocre developers.
As a non wow retail player, what the heck is even going on, so many stats
Well that's easy, basically you're seeing the raw data one would input into a graph to show the rapidly declining birth rate in Western nations.
It makes me laugh that people who play WoW like this are often the ones who go like 'Ha Eve players playing spreadsheet simulator' which like is true sure, but have some selfawareness when you're just staring at a spaghetti nightmare of UI too. The gameplay in the background might as well be incidental background noise.
I'm the type of player that goes "hey, this ability is cool, wonder if people are talking about it" in not just WoW, but any game. It's visual aesthetics, not different from size sliders, you know _which ones_ I'm talking about.
When I go to youtube to view them? I get slapped by a content creator bragging about numbers and this giant mess of god knows what's going on in the screen. 10 whole minutes about how their thousands or millions of stats and bragging about their DPS.
You can't show this to new players to bring in new players.
This only excites elitists who are getting older and older.
Tbf most MMOs UI in big raids are gonna look insane if you don't play that MMO.
These guys are going for world first so I don't think it's surprising that they have an excel spreadsheet projected on their screen when most of the game is basically a spreadsheet simulator if you want to beat Mythic raid bosses with gear deficit. For 99% of players this is irrelevant and you can have a clean UI without much clutter and do just fine even if you go as far as to do casual Mythic raiding eventually, you might need a bit more stuff but not nearly as much as this.
This is why they have different categories for speed running games like Zelda. No glitch runs, Glitch runs, all that. Sometimes they only allow minor glitches, sometimes they allow major glitches that can beat you the game in a few minutes. There is a separate record or "Race" if you will for each of these. Makes it fair.
4% increase in DPS isn't all that massive. Blizzard has known about this "bug" since beta
Yep. It was reported in beta, and multiple times after release.
If it's not fixed by now, it's a class feature
what you mean since the beta? were playing the beta now on live servers if youre honest.
a 4% increase in dps isnt massive??? there is talent tree choices that give you 2.5% increase on ONE ABILITY. 4% increase in dps is absolutely huge that probably more damage than having bloodlust the entire time
@bealmador my point is that 8 vs 250 stacks is only 4%.
4% of overall damage, or 4% from only the mage?
I love how I can tell it's modern wow, because I can't understand a damn thing going on.
Apart from the visual noise of spells hitting the boss the rest of the mechanics in the video look pretty simple: stay our of black zones and dodge black lines.
@atraxian5881 accurate but also oversimplified
They have to adapt to all the addons and weak auras that people use and it makes a mess out of fights.
self-own
@@bashvash I mean without explaining the strategy behind what the players are doing, it's not oversimplified at all. That is exactly what the mechanics require from what you can see in the video.
Lol they have had over 250 pulls on the 5th boss. This raid is insane on mythic.
FYI the bug was fixed yesterday. No one cares anymore.
FYI wow is trash so no one cares
@@anap1680 What are you doing here then?
This is like having someone on the couch watching TV tell us gaming is a waste of time.
@@stormeeds8119 watching asmonggold not playing wow
@@zuephillips3450 Watching a guy, talk about a game you don't care about..
Yeah i'm running to get fun advice from you.
@@stormeeds8119 well I do play on a private server
What when has blizzard ever looked stupid…
It's just a addon that cost $250 guys😂
How is this big news? Am I missing something here? He went up a few % on the meter. In past expansions fire mages could go from being bottom of the meter to doing like 70% of the overall damage just by pressing combustion. Is it being an exploit even relevant when it's so insignificant? Nobody was banned for skipping phase 1 on Atramedes in cata and I'd say that's a way more advantagous exploit which was also extremely wide spread.
in legion shadow priests could do triple the dmg of the second guy lol,it wasnt a bug,it was just how it worked,ofc they nerfed it next tier,but for a time it was magic,this is a joke by comparison
What is Asmon's take? At first he said "I think its totally fine they are cheating, who cares?". Then 1 min later he said "they should be suspended". Then 3 mins later he said "obviously they should he banned for cheating, I just dont really care because Blizzard puts too much focus on the race". Which one is the take?
Whichever one that his editors clip and gets the most views as a short. Haven't you noticed Asmon always plays both sides on almost every issue he talks about?
I think he's saying blizzard should punish them, but he doesnt think its something to get outraged about.
@@GrassSaint33That's understandable. But the tweet he was responding to wasn't outrage. They just described what was happening and said there was criticism.
He's saying that he personally doesn't care whether they cheat or not, and thinks people over value the race to begin with. He ALSO feels regardless of his personal interest in the topic it makes sense that people are calling attention to it and wanting punishment. It's possible to not be personally invested about the topic but also empathize with a side simultaneously.
If you take a step back and just enjoy the show, it answers this problem
Clever use of mechanics. Blizzards game, it’s happening in their game, players figured it out. Blizzards fault
Ye, why does blizzard even let it stack to 250 if it’s supposed to proc at over 8 to begin with? Easily coulda set the cap to a way more realistic number and it wouldn’t matter
@@sluggy567 Or just never check how a proc that needs a target functions if you dont have a target
@@zym6687 Technically speaking it did have a target, focus target is a target. Most likely the bug was simply that the ability was not coded to account for other targeting types like focus target. This most likely why is was so easy and quick to fix.
@@kylesmith987 and yet blizz knew about it since beta and didn't fix it until someone tweeted about it during the race 🙄
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
2:49 old final fantasy bosses that cast reflect on themselves can still be hit if you cast reflect on yourself and bounce your own spells off your party.
This exploit was fairly similar to pictomancer in ff14. When it launched you could turn your buff on and off which would stack and increase dps output. so much so that they created more aggro on pulls than tanks. They fixed it really quick tho.
@@edatihtiaz8018 I rem something similar in EQ2 before wow even came out we had an enchanter do something to the boss and they killed themselves.
i like ease of use addons, but everything i enjoy could be added into the base game. things like combine/uncombine bags, better crafting UIs, better AH UI, custom UI frames, map info, rarespawn alerts, etc.
blizzard could add these things,but why would they invest so much time and money when people do it for free?and they do it in all kinds of ways,addons arent as op for raiding as they used to be,its timers and clear icons for debuffs these days mostly,the people who complain are just REALLY bad at the game and use it as an excuse
@@deenman23 Preach.
They used the bug on two pulls, neither of which even got the boss below 30%. It was hotfixed 30 hours before they killed the boss. The talent was literally doing exactly what it said, it was perhaps unintended, but if reading the tooltip tells you the bug, then it's not a bug, it is working as written. Meanwhile Echo are using a bug where the tooltip reads "Shadow Dance lasts 2 extra seconds" which increases your auto attack damage significantly, and stacking 4 rogues in their comp for this boss.
This isn't even remotely true and you only get this take when you ignore the entire tooltip, but its a common retort from people defending cheating because someone else cheated before they cheated.
@@inkedgeminiWhats the entire tooltip?
Why would he go out of his way to hide himself using the focus macro if it was just him cleverly using the talent to his advantage?
@benowski23 nobody else could use the macro. It was mage specific 😅
@@Hazeno Riiight, how does that answer my question?
I've been going to fighting game tournaments for over 10 years and it's interesting seeing the massive difference in attitude between the communities regarding exploits
Finding an exploit or unintended game mechanic and abusing it is for the most part seen as completely fair game by the vast majority of the FGC. Very few ever get banned in tournament play, and part of learning an older game that never had them patched out is learning how to use/deal with them
The ability was functioning exactly how it reads on the talent tree, 'if you have more then 8 splinters - fire a splinterstorm at your target."
If you dont have a target they arent going to fire, how is this a problem?
how is he firing anything if he doesn't have a target? stop trying to defend this exploit behaviour, you have nothing for you in it.
@@ddenozor By firing at his focus, clearly.
@ddenozor it's extremely common for people to have macros that cast at certain targets without targeting them.
It's quite literally standard play.
Pvpers use it to cast CC on 'arena targets 1/2'
Priests use it to cast PI on targets assigned in raids,
Evokers use it for their buffs.
Hes clearly breaking the rules, but they didn't kill the boss or any other boss, or even progress the boss with him doing this, so no harm done.
@@JustGetAHous No harm done, sure. But his intention was obviously to use it to kill the boss, otherwise there would be no reason to do it in the first place. He decided the risk was worth the chance to help kill the boss. Players were banned for a renown exploit that gave them at best 15 crests. To me and many others, it makes zero sense why Imfiredup did not get punished. When Echo players did the renown exploit they were vocal about it, showing it, joking about being banned. Imfiredup decided to go out of his way to hide his use of the focus macro. I do not understand the decision making from blizzard. I hope Liquid wins, but it would be even cooler if they did it without firedup.
Whether an exploit should be allowed depends on how healthy it is for the games playability. We can use Smash Bro's Melee as an example:
Wobbling: A certain character grabs you once and you die from minimal effort or thought.
This is an unintentional mechanic and is banned in competition.
Wavedashing: A universal movement option that opens up the creativety of every character.
This is an unintentional mechanic and is NOT banned in competition.
IF B-Lizzard is not fair in its business, neither do players have to be.
Can't spell "Blizzard" without "LIAR"
THE ONLY REASON PPL ARE CALLING FOR A BAN IS SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE ESPORTS DRAMA TO TALK ABOUT.
I GUARANTEE YOU NO ONE REALLY GIVES A SHYT
WHY ARE YOU SCREAMIN? WHY ARE WE ANGRY?
BRO I THINK YOU LEFT YOUR CAPS LOCK ON
You can even do that in hardcore. There's a camera interaction settings that create a "facing target focus" even when hardlocking on another player. the setting will send any harmful spells to the closest target facing without breaking focus on the tank or any player.
Why risk their career to cheat?
Cause cheating made their careers since 2010.
Asking your GM NOT to display your screen publicly.
Having an addon to hide what your are doing.
Permaban him and temp ban the entire team for 90 days.
This country will fall apart from younger generations caring more about somebody cheating in a video game over politicians and companies cheating IRL.
We can talk about both.
Nah, it’s falling apart because of people like you who take things “too far” and try to make everything political, pointing out topics that has a different agenda rather than keeping gaming about “games.”
Believe it or not, some people play games to have fun and get away from real life stuff for a bit, then theirs people like YOU who come in and makes everything so dramatic. Not everyone in the world is a softy, so relax and enjoy the ride. 😂🤡
@@NaatPlague or... the young generation only cares about online life. The least important life
@@Hethalean Sure but isn’t this about someone in WoW (game) cheating, online? I didn’t know this was under American Politics. I might have stumbled on the wrong video. 😅
They ban randoms for farming frogs in mop remix but let cheating allowed in a race competition
its not cheating,its an unintended interaction that gave em a tiny % dps lol,ret palas in cata could solo bosses in dragon soul,no1 got banned because it was blizzards fault not players just playing
*If this was a Good and Fair MMORPG like Final Fantasy 14.*
*The Player would get Banned for intentionally Exploiting.*
*All members knowingly participating despite the fact would have their Rewards and Kill removed.* 😎
Exploits are not cheats. Exploits are developers fault.
100%
ABC, Always Be Cheesin
As someone who's meme'd on Blizzard esports for awhile, it's hilarious seeing everyone react to the rampant amount of cheating present in RWF. Every top DPS is using third party software to perfectly execute every "proc" btw. You can just look at the logs and see when someone is cheating when they react to procs flawlessly over 5 minutes even when it's milliseconds from their spec ability.
Now wait until you hear about the "spectator glitch" (as the casters are instructed to call it) in overwatch...
Bungie lets you exploit and never punishes you. It’s their fault for the bugs being there and they recognize that.
who? that company has been dead.
Actually its because they fired the guy that was doing the banning.
who is proud of this lol
Bungie is the last company that should be brought up as an example of a proper player treatment.
They told Blizzard about it three days before it was "discovered" by Gingi who was just looking to rat out of spite since he got in trouble.
If you report it and still use it its your fault
@@Blackbirdone11 So if you tell a cop you did something and they say its not illegal, you should still go to jail? Just put the fries in the bag.
people get mad at players for using exploits instead of the devs for missing them and not fixing them
Get mad at devs for not punishing exploiters purely out of sadistic pleasure in seeing smart people suffer to stupidity.
Yeah, I've never understood this thinking. They literally programmed it.
They knew what they doing, they were cheating intentionally, they all deserve perma ban
@@raphg6319 Hyper unga take.
If you ban the top 3 guilds you just ban all interesting RtWF.
Big fucking pass. This is just a lazy L take and you damn well know it is.
@raphg6319 Blizzard put it in the game. Not the player. Therefore, your opinion is irrelevant.
Another game recently had this issue during a competitive game mode(Oldschool Runescape's Deadman Mode). Jagex Devs banned anyone that was invloved with the entire clan(guild), no questions asked. 100+ top players and 200+ accounts. Cheating in a competition is significantly worse than cheating for fun or curiosity. There is a scale, but nobody likes to use it.
I don't like people getting banned for using mechanics that the devs oversaw the moment a bug Is out that's the devs problem to fix and it's not like the mage was oneshotting the boss
Using macros to break the mechanics*
Fixed it for you, you're welcome.
@@purplefreedom1631u either allow macro or just rule out all macro
@@techLiteracy_ most macros arent used for the purpose of breaking game mechanics, but if you're going to be lissencephalic about it then ban all the macros.
For the record, the "Massive dps increase" is literally a 4% dps increase from the other hero talentry. Not to mention the ability itself says in the tooltip that it will only explode on "your target" meaning if you take the tooltip literally then technically this could be described as intended.
if blizzard makes this possible, it is not cheating. in effect, every addon is a cheat and if they provide this api, banning people is diddiculous. and yes, the game sucks because they provide support for addons. addons it also what ruins classic/sod and the developers even build around addons, so not using all niches would be just stupid. those guys should be rewarded. and clearly a downvote for your strange opinion. i feel like a cheater every time a horn sounds that tells me to move.
Well a team could also hack their opponents accounts during races and delete their gear. That would just be clever use of blizzard security mechanics as well.
@@Mas-ij3ti Tbh that is probably the dumbest comparison I've seen. Hacking into someone elses account for even the slightest edge in a competition should have you banned permanently. As for what they did where they "Exploited" the fight this shouldnt be a ban. Honestly if you want a fair kill just have blizz fix the fight and take away there kill and have them redo the fight with the "Exploit" removed. This is 100% on blizzards end rather or not it was intended to be part of the fight that is not the teams fault for using it at all.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
Dragonflight runes can be applied first, then the new iron claw whetstones for two hours. Same thing applies to flasks tier 1 first, then tier 3 for 2 hours of 3
The need for addons to play this game is purely one of the TOP reasons retail is so horrible.
And who says you need them ? Or why are they so horrible ? Would love to hear any explanation from you. I don't believe you need them and i also don't think they are bad for the game.
@@Akynam you need them in order to be on a level playing field. It's also hugely inconvenient if you don't have those add-ons. Without them, you need to put in double the effort for half of the benefit.
@@Akynam So you're telling me you would rather walk into a mythic raid, M 15+ or higher, and or play at a 2100+ pvp rating without addons not knowing when a spell is off cooldown or when the next mechanic is gunna slap you in the face and fry you into oblivion. when you could turn around, download a couple addons that literally tell you and play the game for you, all so you can make it easier on you and your party? I have zero belief you even touch the endgame of any part of wow if you are playing with zero addons because you are at such a disadvantage its actually not even funny. Now i will admit i hate addons i think they should go but i still have them because without them doing anything endgame is basically 200x harder and im not really one to enjoy putting in triple the effort just so i dont have to use addons.
yeah because a timer and an icon flashing showing you have a debuff is the issue,not that you are a baddie,or that default blizzard ui is bad
@@deenman23 Most of the time blizzard build mechanics around addons cause they know a majority of players use them... if anything players arent bad its just blizzard having bad game design. Which like i said im not a fan of addons but im def not gunna play retail wow without a few to make some of the content actually enjoyable even it its only a small amount more enjoyable.
Yea, because exepcting a dev to deliver a product with little of those bugs is too mucht to ask... If it's in the game and the Dev doesn't INSTANTLY either disable it (the fight in this case) or fix it, it can be assumed it's intentional and allowed.
A small damage increase from using a talent that functions as worded is not a bannable offense.
Cheating on and end boss by having a software circumvent an entire mechanic that resulted in a team winning the RWF despite being way behind and playing worse to the point they couldnt even kill it on reclear the week after without the software, that should have been grounds for SERIOUS punishment. But those same people are now whining and begging blizz to ban firedup despite the fact that Liquid reported it and it was then fixed. Echo fans belong in mental asylums.
this is on the developer to fix it, exploiting more this prolly just the way they meant to beat the game during normal play it just transformed to the challenge thing
TBH I don't see anything wrong with abusing mechanics, whether they're intended or not. The race is about getting there first, unless you're breaking TOS by doing something, at least as far as I'm concerned, everything goes.
Honestly agree. If this was about “fairness” and “blizzard’s intended way of playing” blizzard never intends for splits to be viable yet this is literally 90% of gear farming for RWF and very high end HoF guild’s for heroic week. Should we ban every guild that does splits because blizzard intended us not to do splits?
@@grimfocusgaming4391 In my opinion at least, watching people come up with these tricks and exploits is part of the fun, it's even better when others figure them out after the fact and build on top of them to potentially do something even crazier or utilize them to a greater extent.
Theory crafting is and has always been a very significant part of the game and I don't see this as any different.
Problem with removing addons is, the game has so many buffs and abilties that it's impossible to keep track of everything if you want to efficently perform rotations for a lot of classes, this argument is valid for classic era and a little bit beyond, but in retail? nahhhh.
The current game design would obviously be unplayable without addons, but if they remove the addons, they could just design a game that humans can play. Rather than designing the game around trying to challenge the addons that people are forced to use.
Even vanilla was awful to play without mods because of how laughably bad the base ui was.
At launch you literally had 1 action bar, with pages. Dont even get me started on debuff tracking.......
spot on comment, most of the people complaining here are classic players that are too bad to even step foot into any modern raid. All they do is cope that addons play the game for you as if they could ever kill any hard boss with any addons......
This video is 5hrs old and this happened yesterday. It was hotfixed within a few hours. In addition Liquid notified Blizzard of this bug 3 days before this and Blizz did nothing with their report. If your going to report on drama at least get the details correct and current. Not 24hrs behind.
You realise this had to be edited to be uploaded to the vod channel right? You understand how time works yeah?
@@bencastor9207 LOL you realize hes not editing his own videos right? Shit can get uploaded the same day easily.
I'd say World of Warcraft would not have fallen off so hard if they went with emerging gameplay instead of punishing players. I mean in Warframe the huge amount of mobility was not intended at first, people were abusing stuff and they were like "ok, this feels cool, let's add it as a feature" and guess what, the game became better.
Emerging gameplay in WoW? Nearly all modern bosses are too hard for the average player and make people, even professional players use addons and exploits. Add addon features into the game. Fix bugs that allow exploits or if they are fun, then ADD them as a feature. There are too many players playing illegally on pirated private servers? Make the game free-to-play with a cash shop.
To be fair WoW tries to add addon features into the game but they should have went balls-deep with it and disallow addons. Cheaters should not be punished but interviewed, cooperated with and rewarded for their cooperation. Use them as testers! That's it. Only those should be banned who are doing malicious hacking and other actions that ruin the experience of other players.
Haven't played WoW for ages and as long as Blizzard is more worried about stock prices instead of making something out of WoW, I will stay away. I mean most of the mechanical development is AGAINST players "not playing right" and not about how players want to play. Also these borrowed power craps, transitional stuff that become obsolete every patch, all that is wasted development time that would be better used on the rest of the game, like updating old stuff, making old dungeons, raids and areas relevant and so on and so forth.
Fun fact, the tooltip STATES it goes to your target.
So if you never have a target, you just have a focus target.
Well then, isn't that by design? :)
He wasn't hiding it from Blizzard, he was hiding it from the competition.
Bro...don't 😂
@@Shuubox Nah it makes perfect sense, if the devs put something in the game it's hardly anyone elses fault for using it, plus they knew it was there since beta, at this point its practically a class feature
these Rick and Morty fans with 65 IQ trying to make "2Deep4you" posts are hilarious
The tooltip also states it occurs at 8+ stacks, so lets ignore the half of the tooltip that contradicts reality and doesn't fit a silly narrative that 250 stacks is "working as written".
@@inkedgemini if 8+ stacks and target is hostile
One of the things that's wildly different between WoW and OSRS is the developers willingness to embrace the bugs and exploits. Obviously certain things have to be fixed, but generally speaking, exploits kn OSRS just become supported features.
10:00 this argument is like saying submitting a tool assisted speedrun as a normal run isn't cheating because "its not changing the games code and everything the tas does is technically possible in the game"
But there are speedruns that use bugs found with tas lol, look at super mario 64 they have individual level times that were fully bruteforced and they just copied the inputs. Or trackmania, same thing.
@kingdweeb5065 yes found with a tas used and preformed by a real person instead of a macro, there are also plenty of "tas only" tricks that are so far physically impossible for a person to do or at least to do consistently enough to use in a run
If shits broken during a worlds first then thats on the devs imo
But how would the dev know.
@@sammyhorace7523 It was reported in beta...
@@cosminlesutan3574 oh
It says in TOS that you are not allowed to exploit bugs in the game and he's playing the game so he accepted the TOS. Blizzard have every right to ban him
@@MrMarabou93 define bug
getting banned for knowing the game better than the developers. Blizzard needs to hire them
Lol "weakauras play the game for you". Okay, dude. Go be a mythic raider then. Just use weakauras. Good luck!
But it is that easy? It just tells you everything lol
@@AndrewSmith-sl5zj ''tells you everything'' the terrible game design doesn't, by that logic having a raid leader call out stuff should be considered just as bad for the game ? Weak auras do not play the game for you, none of the addons do, you are controlling the character and you have to outplay the mechanics. Classic bozos acting like they could get cutting edge on retail just thanks to addons pretending like it's easy mode while they probably never tried any modern mythic bosses, all they know are their target dummy trashcan classic raids.
It takes illness and a lot of mental gymnastics to think you would perform anywhere close to these players.
@@AndrewSmith-sl5zjweak auras do tell you certain things so you can focus other things. for sure. but even with that, it's insanely hard. you can give a full raid team the same WAs and see how many of them still fuck up
Ultimately, it's the developers who should define what is allowed, and what's not for the health of their game.
For example, they could say that this time, both teams get the WR, but in the future, exploits will be banned since it shifts the focus to finding game-breaking bugs rather than being about sportsmanship and doing the content within intended design rules. And that in the future, if a team finds an exploit or bug, they can ask a dev about it, who can then decide if it's okay or not.
The way I look at these things is that it's the devs' fault and no one else's.
Also, this shit matters to so little people. idk why so many people are complaining about it. Don't worry, lil buddy , you still aren't good at the game.
@@chazjackson-ahealthfitness2611 Just online pugilists without hobbies or interests so they plague everyone elses lmao
True. What bothers me is it feels like there's more discussion on this than there was when early access was announced. People need to get their priorities straight. If you're going to complain at least focus on something which is obviously bad for the playerbase at large and not something insignificant that was immediately patched.
You are 100% right.
i remember the sunwell priest mind-control one-shot of the final boss.
It's not an exploit, the spell mentions current target in tooltip, it's a clever use of gameplay mechanic to create a focus macros to avoid targeting
It's not a mechanic, it's just an effect coded in a wrong way. If it was a mechanic, it wouldn't have gotten removed. Where's the fun part in such a mechanic? It's not very clever for game designers to make game mechanics like this.
As a returning player, I've finally started having fun this expansion, sadly I feel my enjoyment being sucked away in raids, especially Silken Cour boss in Nerubar palace, where one mistake just wipes your group, even in normal difficulty
I remember why I quit that game. Raids were so boring. Your reward afterwards ? You get to do it over 1000 more times and hopefully getting some random Drop.
I mean literally every MMO ever right? Lmao
There used to be named chase items with cool transmogs, now every piece of loot feels like XYZ of the monkey be it green, blue or purple
@@JustLikeYou.this is not an excuse for NGS.
Whenever a function in a game is used in a way that people consider a "cheat," it means the developer didn’t properly account for it. Ultimately, the "cheat" is limited by the game’s own mechanics and possibilities-it’s not an external addition. Therefore, it’s not truly a cheat since it exists within the game's design. The developer should thank players for pointing out the issue and simply fix it.
I mean... Exploits should be used if they're in the game. It's free game until it's patched. I agree with Zack, let them cheat. Also, addons are a stupid concept as well.
"Exploits should be used if they're in the game" - bruh, what? Exploits are called exploits because they weren't intended as a mechanic, so it's obviously cheating. If you exploit by a mistake/unknowingly then you shouldn't get banned in any game, but using macros to SPECIFICALLY exploit - that's cheating.
Exploit early, exploit often.
@@Kekmitif it’s in the game, use it
I agree that exploits generally shouldn’t be bannable but the situation is different when there’s a competition that explicitly states not to use exploits.
@@caster269 I completely agree. At least i feel the players should know better. If you do, don't get caught at least.
The talent was working exactly as it was written. Hard to blame a player for noticing something so simple that the designer missed.
yeah and even after noticing the bug, they even decided to write a macro and an UI changing WA as to hide said exploit on stream.
Blizzard just taking L's lately lol
You mean since BFA?
No?
"lately"
Did I miss something? TWW has been well recieved, the warcraft logs creator thinks based on his data the game may have broken its peak player count, they already announced the next patch, im sure something is going on with SoD and classic HC is about to have a big comeback. Oh but this mage did 4% more damage and it was immediately patched... Yikes how embarrassing what a massive L for blizz.
@@EmpyreanDreamer "the warcraft logs creator thinks based on his data the game may have broken its peak player count"
Until they return official, verified numbers I'm going with under a million subscriptions and some other million bots. Not making public player number means they hardly have anything and the only way to convince many people otherwise is to make them public again.
6:40 - that's the worst argument ever... what if a body builder who's made it their life to compete in bodybuilding cheats - can't suspend or ban them, it's their livelyhood...
They already are cheating lol, noone cares. Most professional athletes and sports players are cheating in one way or another.
Other raiders got a 4 day ban for an exploit that was less impactful and less convoluted to pull off. He shouldn’t be banned for a long time, but there’s no way it’s fair to ban for the rep thing and not for this.
Bro if you want to hold them accountable based on past actions how about skipping Atramedes phase 1 in cata? Thats a big exploit and just about everyone did it. Blizz did nothing. Nobody was banned and it took them a month to even patch it. Does this being world first race make it different? No. It's not an official event. Not to mention this bug was reported in beta. If it was still in by mythic opening you might as well consider it a class feature. And besides if he wanted 4% more dps he could've just played sunfury.
It's incredibly depressing that there's more discussion over this "advantage" than there was when paid early access was announced.
@@EmpyreanDreamer I’m not holding them accountable based on past actions, I’m basing it on action during THIS RWF, people got banned already during this race so I’m basing it on that for consistency. Why would you want inconsistent banning within the same race?
And it isn’t a 4% increase, that’s a lobotomised way for doing math. If person A can lift 100lbs and person B can lift 200lbs, if person A takes a pill to increase their lift and then lifts 202lbs, that isn’t a 1% increase, it’s a 102% increase. Why are you comparing a class with an exploit to different class instead of the class with the exploit to the same class without it? Rhetorical question, it’s to downplay the cheating by obfuscating just how impactful the exploit is.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
The race to world firsts is about finding creative ways to use whatever the games give you to get their first. Make no mistake, any team that worked this out would use it to get ahead without a second thought. If blizz let this happen then they need to ban themselves from releasing raids until all the bugs are out and world firsts should only be valid if they are done without addons. Lich king to me was about perfect for fight difficulty before DBM became the go to tool for tools.
Players should not be punished for using exploits in a game. The developer should just fix the exploit.
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
@@Arzoden I understand the sentiment of your statement, but I honestly think most exploits are caused by restrictions in coding itself and not from incompetence. I imagine its extremely hard to anticipate "how" players will play the game.
The reason I say these things are a restriction in coding, is because there are several games, both old and new, that have inventory duplication exploits for example. Everything from Pokemon Red to Baldur's Gate 3 have this issue.
From a layman’s POV (only played Vanilla WoW), this seems to me like the natural progression of having more and more advanced add ons. Sounds like these folks found a new meta.
This type of exploit shouldn't result in a ban at all wtf are people smoking? Fix the game maybe.
What will be next? Hunters macroing all pet abilities in their own abilities to make them use them more frequently will be considered an exploit too?
He was trying to hide it so he clearly knew he was exploiting a bug
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
this boss hp was crazy high,keep in mind this expansion the ilvl its much higher than in DF was at this point,they used one tank,and still clutched it in the enrage
Asmon actually pulling the it's only a game card. Sad days
a bad game* it only a bad game…
Zach is in the driver’s seat now, Asmon only shows up when he needs to get real serious in-game
The thing is, if people noticed this then the other guilds in the race also knew this exploit when it happened so I'm sure they also did the same in the end
I love how Asmon acts like people that play wow are losers and take the game too seriously. Does he not remember the last 15 years of his life
always funny to see how butthurt some people get at every shit random streamer says lmao
If a recovered crack addict laughs at other crack addicts who do crack does it invalidate him somehow?
here i will fix this for you maybe it makes sense for you:
I love how Asmon acts like people that STILL play wow and take the game WAY too serious are losers. Does he not remember the last 15 years of his life
To be fair, this wasn't always against the rules and in recent years it almost never incurs bans. WW monks are a perfect example of this. that class had so many small intridcate things that didn't function how they should. But that actually played into the class, the playerbase actually really liked how it felt, and eventually(after blizz removed it all and massive pissed off the community) they slowly readded ways to replicate this. Not saying this isn't exploiting, but we do have a precedent for these type of interactions with spell mechanics.
Imfiredup did nothing wrong. He used mechanics within the game. Blizzard should have thought of this during testing. Just because the players found a way to boost their dps it's not their fault. People have done things like this since the beginning and were never banned or suspended for it.
Exactly, everything he did was doable with in game functions. He didn't need an addon to pull it off. To me the "deception" he used was more likely to hide it from other players duplicating it.
@@deorwynn3597 oh no doubt about it. He didn’t want to give anyone else an advantage. I doubt he was worried about being banned lol.
That is exactly what an exploit is. Abusing an unintended game mechanic, it’s literally in the EULA and very much actionable just like the Severed Threads exploit was a mechanic in the game that got a lot of people suspended.
Just because Blizzard doesn’t fix things timely doesn’t give a RWF player the right to cheat. It’s extremely selfish to risk this in the middle of progression when you clearly knew you had to hide it.
@@MikeyJ232 using macros and intended gain mechanics is not abusing the system. Blizzard knows players use macros for all sorts of things if they didn’t think about that when they originally program the fight, that’s their own fault. It’s not cheating he may have thought it was intended. There have been many weird things over the years. We weren’t sure if it was an exploit or not. So you can’t ban somebody when they don’t know if it was intentional or not. He was hiding his screen because he didn’t want other people using the thing he found. If that’s the case, everybody in the raid would’ve been using it. I would be like yeah that’s a conspiracy maybe to cheat. But considering this is a lone instance with one player at least that I’m aware of. I’m gonna go with he was just using game mechanics. I’m fired up is a respectable mage and has long been a top DPS mage for a very long time. Even if you don’t believe me, I can give you a quick example like the arcane crystal and the prophecy of fear trinket. Many people thought that was an exploit when it first came out, but according to blizzard it was intended use that trinket on the arcane crystal as well. Just because you think it’s an exploit doesn’t mean that it is one.
@@ikiwheese It was obviously an exploit, let’s not play rationale gymnastics here. You cannot tell me that the best players in the world were unclear about something that was obviously not intended to work.
There has never been and never will be a point in the game where using a focus macro to do more damage is an intended game mechanic. It’s crystal clear by reading the tooltip of the talent that the interaction was unintended and not working how it was coded for normal play.
Just because Blizzard is at fault for leaving exploits in their game does not give the RWF players the right to abuse them. It is selfish to risk your account in the middle of a race when the stakes are so high. Especially after seeing Blizzard take action in the pre-season for the Threads exploit.
What always frustrates me is how we've gone from, back in the day, being banned for using external programs (like aim bots) or changing game code.
Now "cheating is literally jusy using mechanics within the game. Intended or not.
Bit rich for Echo to call out things like this when they have a documented history of doing the same shit ....
No, what Echo did in Amirdrassil is way worse than this lol
Didn’t also some echo players get suspended for abusing the renown 2 weeks ago or something.
@Celari yes method and echo both got hit with bans
@@Celari they got a few day ban for straight up doing shit on stream and making it known to others--with that said it was pre release of the race and affected them in no way except a little sleep. dratnos in his RWF recap said tehy should do a few HOUR ban mid liquid day to send a message and since its only a few hours MID race it wont actually make much affect... -- luckily atleast it was fixed before they ever got a kill anyways
@@Celari 4 day bans
Blizzard will never treat them the same because of the revenue generated. It is all about the money.
Ir's not cheating if it's the devs' fault. Devs made the game the way it is, devs don't ban macros, devs don't ban add-ons, devs don't ban bots. It's not Bobby or Activision CEOs who make the technical decisions which results in bad game mechanics.
no its bug abusement. which is a facette of whats usually grouped under the word cheating..
@@Foatizenknechtl Weasel words. Citation needed.
In chess I could move my knight in a straight line across the board. It's not cheating, it's the dev's fault. The devs made the game the way it is.
Swapping your target frame with focus frame on the UI , he knew it was an exploit.
@Lurker_Z has no common sense lmfao😂
People use the term 'exploit' differently. If it's something anyone can do using tools in the game then it's Blizzard's fault and they should fix the game. If they're using tools outside of the game to do it then yeah, ban them.
I think you could define exploit more broadly to include bugs unrelated to game mechanics: using speedrunner-style glitches to clip through walls or the like for benefit. That hasn't been a big problem in WoW, but it has in other games over the years. Also, while I might not call it an exploit, banning for using item/money duping bugs is simply necessary or a game won't have an economy.
@@SkorjOlafsen They shouldn't be banned. The bug should be fixed and at worst the duped gold and items taken away if it's going to have a massive effect on the economy and ruin things for other players.
@@nickmajora Without bans there's no punishment/disincentive for duping. An MMO economy can be permanently destroyed in the time it takes to find and patch the problem. Multiplayer games don't last long if they permit a small group of players to ruin the fun for everyone else. That's the key consideration.
Using an exploit, "it's cheating!".
Using 67 addons and plug-ins on screen, "this is not cheating!"
Describe to me how is usage of any addon cheating please.
@@Akynam First describe why you need any add on. If any of the reasons give you any advantage, it's a cheat. It's an outside program used to make the game easier. How is an add on NOT a cheat?
@@crewellye5428 Ok so is raid leader on discord that's not even in the raid calling stuff for everyone cheating ? Is looking up guides before a boss cheating because it makes the game easier for you ???? Since when advantage = cheat
@@ANotoriousBLT But it's not? Those weakauras are the exact same as the ones you can download off wago or make yourself, they just don't release them to everyone.
@@ANotoriousBLT It's just not, if you don't know how weakauras work you can just say that.
Most ironic part of all this drama was Max going out of his way after they pointed out the renown exploiting to say Liquid would never cheat or allow cheating, yet here we are with him still on roster. At the end of the day, it's all about the $$$ from viewership, subs, and sponsors and if there is no risk to that, they really don't care. They will certainly clutch their pearls when someone else does it though.
An in game natural exploit should NEVER be bannable, if it's there and it works fix the damn game.
Easier and cheaper to temp ban him. He gets to buy a new account and boost, blizz gets kudos for taking action and cash back for doing so
Blizz loves to let exploits into the game and then being late to fix them so they can ban players for god knows what reason.
It's like they are trying to kill off all their most active players and create a utopia of noobs.
Wild part is that echo won last tier with an exploit. Also, He wasn’t hiding this from blizzard, just didn’t want echo to be able to use the same exploit.
Oh no! Anyways..
I don't think I am alone in saying that MMOs lose a lot of value without a dps meter of some sort (personal or otherwise). Otherwise gear, rotations, learning your class, stats, etc. are near pointless and we'd never know if our dungeon win is luck or who is holding us back. DBM and addons similar are completely un-necessary, totally fine getting rid of those.
Who would have thought dei hiring would end up in dog shit
Everything is the boogeyman's fault.
@@damgfulno, he’s referring to DEI. Are the boogeymen in the room with us now?
I'm fine with certain addons.
Addons that only give UI assistance for people who need assistance that the game can't provide.
An addon that displays your bars, (health, mana, etc.), around your character it helps to keep attention on health when you get tunnel vision. Addons that help find resources or keep track of resources you find, this is fine.
Addons that macro your controls, unless you have a physical disability that you need macroing to make the game playable for you, don't.
So the best players, with the best coaches, with ample free time and custom weakauras cannot clear the raid EVEN WHILE CHEATING ??? Who gives a shit about exploits, why the fuck is the raid so hard ? What about 99.9999% of the palyerbase ? Do we just get cucked, forced to watch until the RWF is over and the raid gets nerfed ? You know what, fuck this, I'm out.
I had an argument with a friend once because he said the rtwf was good for the game when the fact that it exists just causes the game the game to be worse for everyone else